Both are fictional and both can have advantages of believing in them.

It does get me cross tho that my kids are taught religion in school, when they could be learning more lessons like PHSE or IT.

Its also frustrating that there isnt one thing in my life that religion dosn't intrude on. How many of our laws are tangled up with belief?

Neither of my kids have any kind of religious, baptism, chritening etc.

Its a personl choice for them. Maybe they will, maybe they wont.

I was christened as a child, that was a waste of time, and a selfish act by my parents.

When I fill forms in why am I always asked which faith I suffer from?

Respect to those of you out there who do fear the Lord, good for you. Isnt it just for people who cant accept that we live and we die. Full stop.

Im open mided.

Whats your views?

"Isn't it just for people who cant accept that we live and we die. Full stop."

You don't sound all THAT open minded. :)

I think that both atheists and devoutly religious people are arrogant in their beliefs. Nobody actually knows what the truth is, nobody can prove anything one way or the other.

I find atheists the hardest to understand though, as It takes belief to be an atheist, yet they are often criticizing people for having beliefs themselves. I just don't have the strength of belief to be an atheist, I need proof to believe in something, and so far I have seen no proof that atheists are right.

I don't personally follow any religion, although I enjoy reading the teachings of all of them. In particular I have thoroughly enjoyed the teachings of Buddhism.

I think it is always better to have ideas than beliefs, you can change ideas, and people don't tend to go to war over them. I have an idea of what I think is 'out there' but I have no proof so I can't believe it.

It does get me cross tho that my kids are taught religion in school, when they could be learning more lessons like PHSE or IT.


Two thoughts that spring to mind off the top of my head:

1) Not sure Father Christmas has ever been accredited with the underlying differences that spark violence & wars

2) A basic understanding of the religious beliefs of any culture is pretty handy when studying the literature of any country. Eg - you can miss a heck of a lot of references in poetry or Shakespeare if you don't have a clue about any biblical stories :)

I never said I was atheist. I like proof to, but didnt we all think the world was flat once upon a time? Whats fact today can be fiction tomorrow.

And in reply to the Shakepear: then shoudlnt it be covered in an english lesson? As and when needed?

I don't believe in any kind of god, but I still think RE should be taught in schools just so you have an idea of what other people believe, then it's up to you to decide if you want to get involved or not.

Each to there own i say but even though RE is a crap lesson in school i still believe it should be taught- how are people supposed to make up there minds if they don't have the basic facts to begin with?

Originally posted by scottf
Each to there own i say but even though RE is a crap lesson in school i still believe it should be taught- how are people supposed to make up there minds if they don't have the basic facts to begin with?

I agree that RE needs to be taught, but I'll never agree with the idea of faith-based schools...education and religion are two things that should be kept poles apart.

Yeah but the thing is there are no facts in religion. Lets stop brain washing our kids.

Originally posted by Snook


I find atheists the hardest to understand though, as It takes belief to be an atheist, yet they are often criticizing people for having beliefs themselves.

It takes belief to be an aetheist? How'd you work that out?

And i most certainly don't critiscise other people for their beliefs. I love a good theological discussion, and have the deepest respect for someone who can give up so much in the name of something that is so extra-ordinary in terms of what we see day-to-day

Originally posted by Angeldevine
Yeah but the thing is there are no facts in religion. Lets stop brain washing our kids.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it brainwashing, but there are dangers inherant in educating a child to think in a certain way from the word go.

The human capacity to question and explore is so central to our nature that religion's tendency to accept things on faith alienates me personally from showing an interest in it.

It may be possible, but striking a balance between open-mindedness and acceptance of faith must be tough.

Originally posted by Leebo84
It takes belief to be an aetheist? How'd you work that out?

No-one knows for sure if there is a god or not so whatever position you take is one of faith - whether it be there definately is a god (small g intentional) or there definately isn't.

What is 'god' ?

Hes the best selling author of some book or other called the Bible.

(sorry no disrespect intended, just could resist)

I know why nobody can find 'god' ...

(and no ... I haven't stolen him !!!)

Originally posted by Angeldevine
Hes the best selling author of some book or other called the Bible.

(sorry no disrespect intended, just could resist)

I heard that he wrote that one with a multitude of ghostwriters.

And in reply to the Shakepear: then shoudlnt it be covered in an english lesson? As and when needed?

An English teacher would (hopefully) highlight a particular religious reference in literature in the same way they might a historical reference.

You wouldn't expect them to down tools & start teaching the story, its context & meaning anymore than you'd expect to find a lesson on Elizabethan history going on in a lesson on Shakespeare, surely.

Originally posted by Leebo84
It takes belief to be an atheist? How'd you work that out?

Well, if you hold the belief that there is no god, never has been and never will be, then you're an atheist. If you don't hold that belief how can you be an atheist? This isn't fact after all, not something that can be proved, so it must be a belief. Thus, it takes belief to be an atheist.

Good answer snook.

Originally posted by Snook
Well, if you hold the belief that there is no god, never has been and never will be, then you're an atheist. If you don't hold that belief how can you be an atheist? This isn't fact after all, not something that can be proved, so it must be a belief. Thus, it takes belief to be an atheist.

Indeed!

Originally posted by Angeldevine
Yeah but the thing is there are no facts in religion. Lets stop brain washing our kids.

I thought you were open minded?

In direct response, many of the rules of the Jewish religion regarding what can and can't be eaten, or what can and can't be done, have been proved to be beneficial to health. The people who followed them over the centuries didn't necessarily know the medical reasoning, but knew that it was what they were supposed to do.

There is a world of difference between stating that you do not believe everything that the various world religions have put forward, and stating that there are no facts in religion and that it is brainwashing.

To be honest, as I said at the beginning of this post, you've blown your "I'm open minded" thing straight out of the water. You are as closed minded and vocal as some of the worst religious nutjobs I have known. If you deny it, why did you post this topic in the first place?

There is a world of difference between stating that you do not believe everything that the various world religions have put forward, and stating that there are no facts in religion and that it is brainwashing.

Can we have some religeous facts please,

Originally posted by retep
Can we have some religeous facts please,

Well that just depends on how open minded you are :) Any 'facts' put forward that are accepted by a major religion will immediately be responded to with shouts of "that's a scientific fact, not a religious fact".

Most people will accept something as fact based on one of two possible reasons:

1) It is verified by an impartial party
2) It fits their agenda

So, for instance, the existance of Jesus is verified by secular historians. This proves to those who listen to historians that he existed. The mention of him in the bible proves it to Christians. Different evidence supports different people, and none of them is any more provable than the other.

Someone (I can't remember who) already pointed out that todays fact is tomorrows fiction. Fact is a very loose word and has two meanings. One is 'knowledge based on a physical occurrence' which is generally accepted, and the other is 'something believed to be true or real'. See that word in the middle there? Believed? Everything is based on belief, faith and trust.

Do you believe that we put a man on the moon? Do you believe that a small city named Hiroshima was obliterated by an atomic weapon? What proof do you have, and what verifies that proof any more than just 'other people believe it too'? I'm not denying either of those 'facts', but I defy you to prove it outright.

Anyway, I'm rambling now :) Basic point: don't state that religion is categorically true or false. In fact, unless you have ANY evidence at all, all you are portraying is a belief in the unreliability of religion. It's a pointless argument and no-one will ever win it.

quick edit the original post I responded to indicated that religion is the opposite of science. It is not, it is a parallel. To be honest, as much as I respect scientists and their work, they came sometimes be as pig headed and nonsensical as any religious fundamentalist.

Originally posted by retep
Can we have some religeous facts please,

Well some bits of the new testament are eyewitness accounts, and although the majority isn't, the whole text is still an historical document, an insight into the life, times and philosophies of the era and places in which they were written.

Look around you. The law, the landscape, your way of thinking, the society in which you live, the history of your country. It's permeated by religion, and predominantly Christian religion at that. Even if you don't believe in God, how can you start to look at life by ignoring something that, whether you like it or not, reaches into so many aspects of our culture?

Agreeing with a particular religion is one thing; understanding it is quite another.

Originally posted by Snook
Well, if you hold the belief that there is no god, never has been and never will be, then you're an atheist. If you don't hold that belief how can you be an atheist? This isn't fact after all, not something that can be proved, so it must be a belief. Thus, it takes belief to be an atheist.

the only true path is agnosticism.

And as a wise, wise man once said, in the "Bells" sketch

"...There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not"

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
the only true path is agnosticism.

And as a wise, wise man once said, in the "Bells" sketch

"...There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not"

I don't even know if I'm an agnostic or not ...

Peoples beilef in God is universal,ok there are many different religions,variations in practices and in the name of their particular "God".But if you stand back and take alook at the wider picture,the majoritory of the worlds poulation have some religous belief.Ok none of us cane prove if its right or wrong.
But so what?,if having faith and following it enriches somones life then go for it.
The only thing i find uncomfortable about religion is the wars it causes.And i cannot understand it , because at the end of the day ,all these people believe in God,and in my opion God would not want wars fought over Him.In the Bible He taught fogivness and tolerence of others.So why cant people be tolerent of the way other people practice their beliefs.


And No i do not go to church and am not some religous nut,it just my point of view.But YES i do believe in God and am happy to do so, in my own private way, because thats how I prefer it.

Originally posted by Jamie
I don't even know if I'm an agnostic or not ...

nah Jamie, you're just serene.

Originally posted by tattoo

The only thing i find uncomfortable about religion is the wars it causes.And i cannot understand it , because at the end of the day ,all these people believe in God,and in my opion God would not want wars fought over Him.In the Bible He taught fogivness and tolerence of others.So why cant people be tolerent of the way other people practice their beliefs.

I think it is because people eventually just think of God as something that makes them different from everyone else, and very much their god. they are often incited into this state of mind by an overbearing state with a military agenda. The wars are generally fought for territory, resources and tangible assets. Religion and Belief is the cloak of justification used by the disgusting scum that start them.

Phan,I honestly never thought of it like that before,but you are spot on there.
See these topics do help us see things from different points of veiw,all helpfull along lifes journey.

Here's what I think ...

The word 'God' is something that is tangable and graspable (by the human mind) ... but (as I see it) it attempts to refer to 'something' that has no form, is non-tangable and non-graspable.

It's like trying to fix a river or the wind in place so you can look at it and measure it and consider how it compares with other things that can be looked at an measured ...

For me, the word 'God' is redundant. It has very little pragmatic use and does more harm than good. It is misleading and allows people to mistake the signpost for the destination (which I recon is ultimately yourself).

It seems to be a function of our nature that we gather together and have shared beliefs / experiences (that are dependent on the environment and culture we live in). These are formalised in to organised religious factions (and then you get all kinds of political power plays going on).

The problem is that as soon as you try to grasp and understand and solidify the most subtle / divine / truth / light / cause of all that is and is not ... you loose it ... and then it just degenerates in to crap from there.

That which is refered to as 'God' can only be 'known' by letting it go. That which is refered to as 'God' can not be seen, precisely because it is everywhere.

I think the issue is not so much if you believe in notions such as 'God' or not, but how you treat yourself and your fellow human beings. AFAIK this is what that Jesus dude was getting at.

Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.
To do so is to place intermediaries between yourself and the divine, and to make yourself a begger who looks outside for a treasure that is hidden inside his own breast.

If you want to worship the Tao, first discover it in your own heart.
Then your worship will be meaningful.

Source: Hua Hu Ching (book by Lao Tzo ... he was a Taoist).

Each to their own.Religion is one argument nobody will ever win, cause nobody can prove its true ,but then again nobody can prove its false either.
So its one of those subjects that can be argued about forever and a day, but none of us will be any the wiser.
Its all down to personal beliefs and the choices of the individual.

Religion seems to be the root of most conflicts in the world - how can that be good? Now if more people though of God as a Woman, less people would be interested and there would be less violence.

Father Xmas on the other hand - a real sweetie!

It's human nature to try and explain how we got here and what our purpose is. Religion does this and also allows a huge amount of control (less now but look at catholicism and islam). It also traditionally has taken away the power from women and given it to men.

Seems to me like it's a secret society, particularly the christian church. Where did I read that more children now recognise the McDonalds logo than they do the cricifix?

Hi Bloomindido - guess there's only me and you up at this time!

Religion does exert a good deal of control and sometimes that is for the better. I don't consider myself a 'believer' but I prayed as hard as anyone could when my bro was in ICU!

When I was little I used to believe that God could see everything and I remember being scared to go to the toilet coz God could see me!

Originally posted by Hels
Religion does exert a good deal of control and sometimes that is for the better. I don't consider myself a 'believer' but I prayed as hard as anyone could when my bro was in ICU!


What you were demonstrating when praying for your brother in ICU is faith; faith that something was out there and that the gesture would do some good.

Religion is a whole different kettle of fish. To be honest, I generally find that religion for the sake of religion divides. Even Jesus said that you get basically nowhere just by following the rules! Faith is a different matter and it is something everybody needs, if not in God then in each other.