Anybody here who has been a patient at the Hillsborough Clinic for single vaccines and needs to complete all the single shots can obtain a list of all doctors offering the shots from the jabs website www.jabs.org.uk. I had my children vaccinated singly and can honestly say that it has given me complete peace of mind.

Mo .....sorry but I can't login once again.

hi to you all, me and my girlfriend are stuck at the moment about the mmr jab we have got a son who is 2 years old and he should have had it but we have also got a son who is 17 years old and he as got autisum our daughter hasnt got it but we have just found out that she has got learning difficulties she is 14 years old, so where do we go from here do we let our young son have it or do we wait until he is a bit older I have asked all the professional people doctors,nurses,health staff and we still get know proper answers from them so what do we do. help please.

I Appreciate the difficulties Kev.

I am not a doctor, if someone wishes to correct me then please do so! To the best of my knowledge...

The whole thing about the MMR jab and autism was shown to be rubbish. The investigation was flawed and the investigator was shown to be being paid to prove a link, something he didn't disclose when it was a requirement to do so.

There is no other evidence linking MMR and autism. Every other study contradicted this one study or was inconclusive.

Scientifically speaking, the MMR-autism link should never have been made public and a lot was learned from it, or was supposed to have been anyway...

Additionally, the probablities involved were still always on the side of having the MMR jab. The risk of autism would have been significantly lower than the risks associated with an MMR related disease anyway, the problem is that no parent wants to have made a "positive" decision potentially leading to their child suffering in any way.

Can possibly still get MMR separately if you're worried, however the jab is not linked to autism or learning difficulties as far as anyone knows.

I always thought it was just scaremongering. I'm perfectly confident that it's safe.

I'm 27, so when I was a kid there was no MMR - in fact there was NO mumps vaccine administered in this country at all. So when there was a mumps epidemic around the university a couple of years ago (my girlfriend was a student) I went and got the MMR myself.

All research, when commissioned, usually comes out in favour of the organisation pulling the purse strings.

Just as the original research methodology was later 'found' to be flawed, the research Dr refused to back track on his results, conclusions & recommendations.

The 'findings' were commissioned by the drug giant who makes the triple mmr vaccine. The triple being cheaper (& therefore more profitable) to produce... $urely they woudn't...

Back to square 1.

Any immunisation - whatever it is - triggers the immune system into producing antibodies & the recipient often displays symptoms of the virus to varying degrees. Fact.

Now look at the fit healthy adult males who were given an immunisation assault ala 1st Gulf War. They all had established immune systems - and now, years later :huh: hmmm....
You've all seen them on TV...

With the triple mmr we are dealing with babies with very immature immune systems, especially if said baby was a premature birth. Their immunisation assault kicks off a massive antibody reaction , huge inflammatory response, and any crossover effects cerebrally causing cerebral oedema (swelling-fluid retention) ... The reaction & auto-immune response is very complex & very different in babies v adults.

Personally recommending (as an RGN with 16yrs experience)
& the parent of an autistic child:

Demand the jabs individually until DEFINATE results are found.
Do not gamble with a child's life, especially your own.
You have a long time to regret it.
It costs more to the NHS - tough - you pays your taxes!
OK baby has to have 3 different needles & cries 2 extra times for nothing.
Babies have a very short term memory for such things.
They don't mind really. It hurts. They cry. It stops hurting. They forget.

I had MMR when I was a kid and I'm fine..

and people have penicillin everyday & they're fine.


But some have allergies and, until they've taken it they don't know. Allergic reactions can be reversed. Autism can't.
There will always be an exception. It's not worth the risk.

My eldest two kids had the MMR and they've been fine but I never had my 20mth old twins done, didnt want to risk it. Thing is now they've said its a safe jab the seed has already been planted in everyones mind. So many families have claimed their kids got learning probs after having the jab, surely they all cant be wrong! Its catch 22, you'd feel guilty if your child contracted measels and ended up blind but then you would if they had an adverse effect with the jab. Plus I think the babies are far too young for their bodies to cope with 3 live vaccines.

They've said it's not connected though...even if it is connected the percentage of kids that would get it would be very very slim.

Also just because a child had MMR and then developed autism..it doesn't necessarily mean they got it from MMR.

I can understand a parent's worry though..

My sister and "adopted brother" both reacted badly to the whooping-cough(Pertussis) jab (w'cough).

Both have learning difficulties, my brother more than the sister.

My sister has a "genetic" form of autism (fragile X), that we believe was compounded by the convulsions she had when having the adverse reaction to her W'cough jab.

My brother contracted encephalitis after he had the w@cough jab, and went from being a totally normally-developing, and quite a bright little boy, to having hemiplegic cerebral palsy, and brain damage. his brain swelled up inside his skull, and the increase in pressure, as a result of the jab, caused the problems.


we fretted like mad, three years ago, when the doctor gave my grandson the mmr jab, by mistake, (by carelessness, if truth be known) when he was only 16 weeks old we were scared that he might suffer impairment, as a result of the doctor's actions.

would it trigger an adverse immune response? (he was very ill for about a month afterwards)

would it trigger autism, in him, where, had he had the jab at the proper age, (~15/18 monts or thereabouts) his little body would have been strong enough to cope with the contents of the jab, he might have been able to avoid autism.

As it is, he is very hyperactive, and destructive, and he is sensitive to colourants in food and drink. I describe him as having "more bounce than 'Tigger'!"

My other grandchildren (I have four) don't seem to exhibit this behaviour.

We wonder, often, whether this hyperactive-ness is a result of the jab. We can't be sure either way. We feel that it very well could be, but we have no way of proving that, had he not had the jab, he would not be hyperactive.

I mistrust government assurances that X, Y, or Z is "safe"! (I well remember the horrific scenes of the government minister shoving a beefburger down the throat of this little daughter, during the early period of the BSE crisis! I also remember the salmonella-in-eggs scandal)

I have immune system problems (my body can't decide how to react:- it will either fail to deal with the intruder, attacking my own body tissue instead, or it will totally overreact, and go to the other extreme!) so I have to be cautious about having vaccinations. I can't have the 'flu jab, because I am allergic to egg, and the 'flu jab is cultured on eggs.

PT

Originally posted by gazelle
My eldest two kids had the MMR and they've been fine but I never had my 20mth old twins done, didnt want to risk it. Thing is now they've said its a safe jab the seed has already been planted in everyones mind. So many families have claimed their kids got learning probs after having the jab, surely they all cant be wrong! Its catch 22, you'd feel guilty if your child contracted measels and ended up blind but then you would if they had an adverse effect with the jab. Plus I think the babies are far too young for their bodies to cope with 3 live vaccines.

this is what scares me, too, gazelle.

the jabs are being given at a younger and younger age.

it used to be something like 3, 6 and 9 months that the triple jab (whooping cough, diphtheria and tetanus) was given, and the MMR at 15/18 mos.

now it's something like 6 weeks, three months and either four or six months for the triple, and 12 months for the MMR. I fret that these teeny- tinies are just not old enough for this, well.... "insult", basically to their immune system, and that their own immune system is not developed enough to handle it.

PT

I refused to let my children have the MMR vaccine and instead self funded the single vaccines.

When I had my first child in 1995 the safety of MMR was already in question. I fought like mad for single vaccines on the NHS, which incidently were still available for use should the govrnment have authorised them. I was stonewalled and refused point blank to have my child injected with a vaccine which had a cloud over it. That child remained unprotected for 7 years until I finally found a wonderful doctor who gave my children the single vaccines at cost. He sought no profit from giving parents the right to choose.

I was never unduly worried about the risks of measles, mumps or rubella. My generation caught the lot of them, now have lifelong immunity (which you do not have from vaccinations) and I don't know of anybody who suffered damaging effects from any of the diseases. Yes there will be some, but even influenza kills people every year.

The single vaccines are available and licensed and SHOULD be made available to those who choose to use them.

Let us also not forget who funded the government investigation into the safety of MMR vaccine. You've got it the drug manufacturers themselves..how corrupt is that.

God and they expect us to believe them when they say its safe but they can make such a life changing mistake giving a 16 week old baby the wrong vaccine!! I just feel that if my twins did have a reaction to the jab how would I cope with 4 kids and maybe 2 of them with problems. That may sound selfish but its summat I dont want to risk.

How about you just dont give your kids any vaccines and hope they dont catch any diseases?

I had the MMR when I was a baby, and again when I was in junior school... and I'm perfectly fine, at least to my knowledge :)

The huge increases in ADD, ADHD, autism etc are not down to MMR I dont think, I belive that was just being used as an escape goat as nobody really knows why theres an increase in them...

My personal oppinion? It's either to do with the polution in the world, which is always on an increase... increase polution, increase child "defects"... sounds reasonable to me...

or it's just simply similar to my beliefs on cancer... that it's part and parcel of our evolutionary cycle... if someone's body/mind is "defective" it reduces their chances of being lucky enough to pro-create... in the grand scheme of things only the strongest and fittest are meant to survive, unfortunatly in a civilised world that doesn't happen and we breed in defects...

and btw, NO, I'm not some sick messed up person, I just like to look at things from as many angles as possible, my brother has ADHD, dyslexia and other problems, but my mum is dyslexic also... I believe most of the problems are genetic... so we wont cure them...

but hey, I'm no scientist, so we all might be lucky :)

I'm quite surprised at some of the ill-informed stuff on here by people who shoudl probably know more than me.

If you want to disbelieve anything a drug company sponsors then dispute almost every bit of research ever. The system isn't perfect, you have to go on multiple results, and as independent as possible.

With MMR, you'll find virtually the entire scientific community considered that research bogus. You aren't talking 1 MMR-related company doing research, you're talking a lot of research by several different organisations and with better peer reviewed papers.

It's like 100 people saying one thing, 1 saying another, and believing the one.

In any walk of life, science or not, you'll always get someone disputing something.

There are people out there who think immunisation is wrong!

Once again, I have no issue with parents choosing MMR as separate jabs as its understandable but the reserarch linking MMR and autism was shown to be seriously flawed, and no other research has shown it (and there has been a lot, not just sponsored by one drug company either).

Originally posted by gazelle
God and they expect us to believe them when they say its safe but they can make such a life changing mistake giving a 16 week old baby the wrong vaccine!! I just feel that if my twins did have a reaction to the jab how would I cope with 4 kids and maybe 2 of them with problems. That may sound selfish but its summat I dont want to risk.


Of course, when we have our children, we all wish for a healthy child, and that our child not have a disability.

Speaking as someone who grew up with a sister who was "learning disabled":- it was not easy, but, on the other hand, having a disability or a child with a disability is not the end of the world, either, as hard as it can be. It can actually be enriching experience, for some people, believe it or not!

People with disabilities can have a very fulfilled life; I became dependent on a wheelchair 11 yrs ago, after being a very active, busy person. it was hard to adjust, at the time, but now, I am back at work, and I have a great job, in a great charity, working with other disabled people. a lot of people have said that they think that their life would not be worth

My youngest nephew was born with the soft-spot on his skull already sealed, (something to do with the hard water in the area my sister lives in, we understand) and he suffered severe brain damage. he is 12, but has the mental capacity of a 20 month/ 2 yr old toddler. However, he has a happy life, he is a darling lad. He has done more than I have, in his little life:- he's ridden in a helicopter, and been featured in a national newspaper article.

(sorry, that was another "aside")

PT

Originally posted by Mo
I refused to let my children have the MMR vaccine and instead self funded the single vaccines.


How is having each one seperately any different to having all 3 at once ?

Originally posted by nick2
How is having each one seperately any different to having all 3 at once ?

It doesn't overload the babies' immune sytems, nick.

having them seperately, gives them the chance to recover from the one jab, before giving them the next.

If I had the choice, that is how I'd do it for a child of mine.

PT

Originally posted by miggy
I The whole thing about the MMR jab and autism was shown to be rubbish. The investigation was flawed and the investigator was shown to be being paid to prove a link, something he didn't disclose when it was a requirement to do so.



Not true.

Andrew Wakefield, a much respected surgeon and paediatric gastroentologist's research showed an apparent link intitially between MMR and crohn's disease. Measles virus was found in the gut of a group of children who were presented to him in his role as an NHS doctor.

A number of these children were also autistic and he was approached by these parents to investigate if there was a link between MMR and autism.

His mistake was that he didn't disclose this study he was doing in tandem and as such the Lancet would have rejected his findings. That is not because his findings were not correct but that it could have been interepreted that ther was a conflict of interest.

Failure to find a connection between MMR vaccine and autism is not the same as proving that there is no link.

There are other studies that contradict Andrew's findings.

No link has been shown by anyone else and I seem to remember his research methods have been criticised (on this I could be wrong).

His findings were always considered suspect before the link to the legal team was found, a link he didn't even disclose to his own staff.

A little off the point but it is relevant - there are plenty of arguments as to why more people seem to be seen as on the autistic spectrum, but generally speaking it's considered that teh diagnosis is now more commen due to improved knowledge and understanding. Noone is sure if there are actually more real world cases or not.

Originally posted by Mo
Failure to find a connection between MMR vaccine and autism is not the same as proving that there is no link.

That is true, but I think in this case people choose to believe there is a link, like people choose to believe that mobile phone masts are bad for you though there is no proof they are.

For me the sadest part is that single vaccines are available as an alternative but we are not been given the chance to choose these.

I would say that whether a link has been shown or not is irrelevent. If there is a shadow of doubt then single vaccines should be brought in even if there is a charge for them.

But nothing is completely safe, some people will be negatively effected by any treatment, people die from taking malaria tablets, but the risk of dying of malaria if you don't is much greater.

Mo, I'm with you on the single vaccine availability, but there is doubt on everything medical related. You have to draw the line somewhere.

It may not sound nice, but it comes down to probability and statistics available at the time. Unless the case is exceptional, studies need to be repeated before panicing the public as happened in this case.

Andrew Wakefield has more of a vested interest than he declared.
He now runs a crank clinic in the States selling at extremely high cost homeopathic remedies for autism as well as the single vaccines.

We should ask that guy from London who did lots of single vaccinations - that GP bloke.
As well as being an expert he also made a lot of money at his private clinic.

Oh hold on we cant- hes in jail.
Turns out that his single vaccines were duff and did not confer immunity. Not only that but he then tested all of his patients and falsified the blood test results to say it had worked.

Its a thorny subject.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO LINK MMR TO AUTISM.

On the other hand kids are allowed to have no immunity by their usually caring parents which exposes those at risk to a much greater risk of measles.

Measles is horrible and kills or leaves severe disability.
If youre a baby or ill for whatever reason its worse.

It is a shame these people do not consider what passing measles from their unvaccinated child would do to others.

thank you

d

I know it's very scary with all the publicity that surrounds the MMR jab, but my son is Autistic and the MMR hadn't been thought of, but one thing does worry me, and that is that most young mothers these days, have never come across the seriousness of Measles, whooping cough and Rubella illnesses, these are killer illnesses that have been controlled over the years by children having the injections to prevent them

Originally posted by marycrookes
I know it's very scary with all the publicity that surrounds the MMR jab, but my son is Autistic and the MMR hadn't been thought of, but one thing does worry me, and that is that most young mothers these days, have never come across the seriousness of Measles, whooping cough and Rubella illnesses, these are killer illnesses that have been controlled over the years by children having the injections to prevent them

I am sorry but this is twaddle.

Most people have rubella without even knowing they have had it and it is not dangerous in itself.

Whooping cough is not a killer disease (not that we are talking whooping cough vaccine here)

Measles has been around for generations. Fit well nourished children who catch measles make full and complete recovery. Yes there is a miniscule risk of blindness as an extreme extreme complication but as I have said many times, young vulnerable people can did of flu.

The whole risk business is blown out of all proportion with regard to the MMR diseases. I love my children more than life itself and always without exception act in their best interest. I have no regrets whatsoever acting in the way I did I just wish that they could have caught the herd virus and then I wouldn't have had to vaccinate them at all.

"I am sorry but this is twaddle.

Most people have rubella without even knowing they have had it and it is not dangerous in itself.

Whooping cough is not a killer disease (not that we are talking whooping cough vaccine here)
"

300,000 people die every year from this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whooping_cough

so I would call that a killer disease. The point is the % of people who die from a disease like this is much higher than the % of people who had mmr and got autism, so even if there is a link you are still better hedging your bets with mmr. And the worst thing is your child might not die from one of the MMR diseases - but someone elses might and they might have caught it from your child....

according to wilkepedia, that 300,000 deaths quoted, are worldwide, and the developed world has only 10% of those deaths.

*We* are not in a developing country. Across the whole of the developed world there are 30,000 deaths, reckoning it up, (I don't know how many that works out at per individual country, because I don't know which countries are classified as being "first-world" across the globe, I assume most of western europe is counted, so that'd be from Germany, across Holland, Belgium Luxembourg, France, italy, Spain and Ireland, as well as the UK, and the US, Australia and NZ. (and probably Sweden, Denmark and Norway, too..?) that's just under 2,000 or so, per country, averaging it out between just the countries named. (of course, some countries may have more, others less, we'd need the statistics per country, not the overall worldwide figures.)

A lot of people think that those odds are better than the percieved risk to their children. the horror stories bandied about, in regard to deaths/ impairment from the so-called "preventable childhood diseases"are incredibly rare, and are usually as a result of complications of the disease.

My sister and I both got whooping cough, despite being vaccinated against it! I sailed through my bouts of chicken pox, measles and whooping cough. my sister had complications with at least the measles and the chicken pox (and knowing her, she probably had complications with that, too!)

Because my sister reacted badly to the whooping cough jab, I'd certainly think twice before permitting a child of mine to have it. other people? "YMMV" ... your mileage may vary.

If you have had no reaction in the child's close relatives, then you will probably be less likely to see an adverse reaction in your child, which will make the decision to have the jabs administered a lot easier to make.

PT

" *We* are not in a developing country. Across the whole of the developed world there are 30,000 deaths, reckoning it up, (I don't know how many that works out at per individual country, because I don't know which countries are classified as being "first-world" across the globe, I assume most of western europe is counted, so that'd be from Germany, across Holland, Belgium Luxembourg, France, italy, Spain and Ireland, as well as the UK, and the US, Australia and NZ. (and probably Sweden, Denmark and Norway, too..?) that's just under 2,000 or so, per country, averaging it out between just the countries named. (of course, some countries may have more, others less, we'd need the statistics per country, not the overall worldwide figures.)"

The reason only 2000 people die is because we vaccinate against this disease. If noone did this then a lot more people would catch whooping cough surely? Hence many more than 2000 would be dieing if we didnt vaccinate the population.
Why are so many dieing in the developing world? Do you think it could possibly be because they dont have vaccination programs?

ooooh, this subject gets me so angry... nobody in the medical profession worth anything thinks there is any danger. There is no link, and it has been proven by many studies. The journal that first said there might be a link has since apologized to the medical profession for being so wrong. Only idiots think there is more danger of the MMR jab than the diseases themselves... sorry, but it's true.

Don't you love people who generalise, and completely out of hand insult & rubbish the experience of many health workers, just because their experience is different to what some other people have read...

It's in black & white - it must be true...

The journal that first said there might be a link has since apologized to the medical profession for being so wrong.

Do please show your information source.

Then consider the words 'bank' & 'rolling' in the same sentence

:thumbsup: have a fab day everyone. Life's brilliant.

No, I'm not going to find links and stuff (I did it last time on this thread). I have too much disdain for this subject to further discuss it.

I also don't believe that ANY health workers have got any experience of seeing the MMR jab causing autism.


http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15188&perpage=15&highlight=vacine&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Snook
No, I'm not going to find links and stuff (I did it last time on this thread). I have too much disdain for this subject to further discuss it.

I also don't believe that ANY health workers have got any experience of seeing the MMR jab causing autism.


It's nice being a Jedi - although I feel a disturbance in the force

Don gives snook a huge <hug> & nips off to mash..

1 lump or 2 mate? ;)

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
It's nice being a Jedi - although I feel a disturbance in the force

Don gives snook a huge <hug> & nips off to mash..

1 lump or 2 mate? ;)

Just milk please, fella.

p.s. Never meant to insult anyones experience... but it's just the way I feel... and that's all I have to say about that. :D

I realise that I talk a lot of twaddle, and I apologise for mentioning whooping cough instead of rubella, I've obviously had a senior moment ,and that comes to us all, there are no injections for that, but the point I was making was that my son never had the MMR injection, but he does have AS. now back to my comments about Measles,Mumps and Rubella, I have no percentages to quote to you, but I lost an aunt to measles, my cousin also had measles but just survived, my son, caught mumps from my other son and was rushed into intensive care at LodgeMoor Hospital with meningitis and very lucky to survive, and I have a friend, who on her twenty first birthday had to stay at home because she had caught rubella, and she was three months pregnant with her daughter, but she had to hope and pray that her baby wouldn't be born with a serious disability.I'm sorry if I've upset anyone, but I was talking about my experiences only, and I should have made that point clear.

Having a child with autism and have him grow up not knowing what is wrong, watching other children be so cruel and even adults being so hurtful, gives one a great incentive to find out exactly what and where it went wrong.

I have been told many things throughout the years, none of which has ben helpful and some of the comments downright rude.
As Asperges Syndrome was discovered in the 1940's prob when vaccines were starting to be routinely given, there is no wonder that there is all this sceptisism about injections.
I was a great believer in vaccination, but I'm sure if i had my choice again I would say no to the 3 in 1 's.
Hazel

Originally posted by Mo
I am sorry but this is twaddle.

Most people have rubella without even knowing they have had it and it is not dangerous in itself.


Actually, Rubella can be extremely serious and even fatal in some cases.