I started a thread based on my friend and noted that she cannot use her legs when out of the house as they are too weak. So heres a poll based on it (if i can get it to work..)

I don't see why it should but I can imagine some people may be bothered about it..

Im not one of em for the record!

I think it's a bit hard to say unless you have been in that situation! It's like asking 'would you date someone who's 30 years older/younger than you' - how do you know unless it has become a possibility for you?

thanx for your feedback! :D

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I suppose when I was in my twenties I was too shallow to even consider it. Now I'm a hell of a lot more mature and don't really give a damn about appearances or other people's opinions concerning who I'm dating. I know it's a cliche, but with me, it's 100% based on personality.

Originally posted by _Fate_
thanx for your feedback! :D legs or no legs shes still a person with feelings,shouldnt even have asked this question if you had feelings for her,would she be intrested in you if you were something like elephant man? like some one for what they are not what you would like them to be,if your that bothered about it dont have the lass on just leave and chase your perfect woman, ps, take ten pairs of trainers though as it will be a very long hunt..give the lass the respect she is due,dont mess her around and build her hopes up then dump her because your mates are taking the ****,...love her or leave her.....simple

Originally posted by beckyaa
I think it's a bit hard to say unless you have been in that situation! It's like asking 'would you date someone who's 30 years older/younger than you' - how do you know unless it has become a possibility for you?

My Thoughts Exactly. Without the experience I could not know.

Surely if you get the opportunity to know somebody. Their physical attributes become less obvious the longer that you know them. I personally know loads of fit and pretty girls who I wouldn't go out with, because I have nothing in common with them..,

"You can be as pretty as you like sweetheart, dont come to me expecting any preferential" !!!

My desires are mostly cerebal...

Thanks again guys.

thanks every1 i no any1 that has a disablity will really apprechate this
(including me)

Of course, and anyone who'd have a problem with dating someone because of their physical attributes based on other peoples reaction surely has a major problem with themselves.

Getting on with someone's mind is surely the most important basis of any relationship.

Well, it would depend. Is the question about being with someone for years and being in love with them, and then them suddenly becoming physically handicapped? If so, of course I'd still date them. If the question is whether it would put me off in the first place then, in all honesty, it probably would.

I voted that I would but i'd be upset by other's judgement.

I have a disability but it isn't a visible one yet i still consider myself disabled. Some people judge me on this because of the schema that is brought about when someone says the word 'disabled'. We automatically think of a physical disability and so people's reaction will always be there, though prejudice because of disability is hopefully a thing of the past.

I know that I could date someone regardless of disability because of what I have had to cope with. For those of you that don't know I have a minor mental illness (OCD) and also a mild chemical imbalance that causes me to lose co-ordination.

I guess i could live without fixating on something sometimes but I guess I would truly miss having something to say to people, something to be proud of that I can say ' I have coped with this and i may have been hindered by it but I have still achieved'.

Sometimes when my disability confronts people they don't know how to react or they shy away, sometimes they try and make a joke out of it. Any reaction makes me feel uncomfortable, but mainly due to the fact that they make decisions based upon that issue.

What I would say is that it isn't a matter of looking past the disability, but a matter of seeing it as something that is just part of the person. If some people can't cope with that it is as irrational as not liking someone for their dress sense or theuir haircut. It is all ultimately superficial and those that are bother by it aren't worth bothering with.

I guess that seeing other people do that to someone i cared about would make me feel powerless, I'd want to change the world to make it so that people wouldn't ever react due to any disability. I wouldn't want to remove the disability (though sometimes it might seem like the best option) because I think what we have to deal with on a day to day situation makes us who we are, for better or worse.

Hope this all makes sense, and helps for that matter. I know my experience are most likely different from anyone who suffers a Physical handicap but its the only experience I've got!

Wilf

Appreciate all this feedback from you all. I made this poll because my close friend ( XxprincessxX ) has a disability which she has previously thought puts boys off her. But since we dated, she knows she has nuthin to worry about and now that shes seen comments on here, and these votes, her confidence has really improved. :D

My ex g/f was physically disabled... it really makes no difference to a r/ship... we was good friends before we started dating so it more like just extending a friendship onto a higher level... but thats how I think most r/ships should be anyways

even if its somebody that you don't know you should still get to know them as best you can, because I think the best part of a r/ship is the friendship bit and having someone to share all sorts of things with... not just your body :P

I can understand where some people are coming from if they would 99% exclude people with physical disabilities... its not always the easiest thing to deal with as a partner...

Like sometimes my ex (she has spina bifida) had REALLY bad spasms of the muscles in her back and/or leg and it used to get me upset sometimes because there was nothing I could do to help, when you really love somebody you just wish you could make the pain go away, and you can't always... even if you give their muscles a massage it still can only get rid of some of the pain :(

anyways, I'm always all for taking people at face value, at the end of the day... when we're all 60 looks are gonna mean jack all when were all wrinkly and cant tell a dick from a walnut whip! lol

Originally posted by depoix
legs or no legs shes still a person with feelings,shouldnt even have asked this question if you had feelings for her,would she be intrested in you if you were something like elephant man? like some one for what they are not what you would like them to be,if your that bothered about it dont have the lass on just leave and chase your perfect woman, ps, take ten pairs of trainers though as it will be a very long hunt..give the lass the respect she is due,dont mess her around and build her hopes up then dump her because your mates are taking the ****,...love her or leave her.....simple This is a follow on from the other thread " Would you date this girl" and I persume you are on about the same girl in Wales.
The last time I put an honest opinion on the other thread I was acused of being a B*****d and you are asking for people to put there honest opinions on here.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour and stop embarrassing this young girl.
My opinion for the record is I would date a girl with a physical disability if she was the right girl for me BUT again some people would not.:mad: :nono:

Being disabled myself I know what it's like so no, I wouldn't have a problem dating another disabled person.

The only time I would think twice would be if they were REALLT REALLY disabled, ie they needed help with the loo, dressing etc.

Originally posted by Rich
The only time I would think twice would be if they were REALLT REALLY disabled, ie they needed help with the loo, dressing etc.

But at the end of the day they may still be disabled even if they can use the loo or dress by themselves ?

Sorry, I just thought that kinda contradicted this

Originally posted by Rich
Being disabled myself I know what it's like so no, I wouldn't have a problem dating another disabled person.

Maybe its just me mate :confused:

I have to say truthfully that it would bother me, but I'm a terrible human being and very shallow.

If she was hot with big breasts that it wouldnt be a problem. If she had no legs she'd just have to work abit harder at the ironing and cooking.

;)

Well, the girl i actually made this poll in respect off, does have big breasts, and is very hot. So :D

there not that big thank u very much

HA HA - this thread has gone off the rails huh ;)

Originally posted by xXprincessXx
there not that big thank u very much

I think WE should be the judge of that:D

Shes a 38C ... :D

I was her BF :D:D:D:D

Originally posted by _Fate_
Shes a 38C ... :D

I was her BF :D:D:D:D

really, you got any pics?:heyhey:





just messin LoM - joke babe

no and his not going to get any

Originally posted by xXprincessXx
no and his not going to get any

oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ;)

I give the last post or thread about 5 more minutes..

Originally posted by Deejay
I give the last post or thread about 5 more minutes..
Seconded

_Fate_

Seriously mate, I understand completely your desire to help build up Princesses confidence etc but really this is NOT the way to do it. In two of those photos you can barely see her face, just her chest. Disabled, able bodied, whatever, thats wrong. Thats no way to build up someones self respect. The portrait type picture of Princess you posted on the other thread, fair enough, but to show all these pictures of her bust just to get the forum to agree she has nice boobs - what is all that about? C'mon enough is enough now. xXPrincessXx has registered and posts, lets get to know her as a person.

Gratuitous cleavage shots are not really the way to go - post removed.

She's a very attractive girl but can we get to know her before finding out her bra size/whatever else size!?

Ok. I dont think she'l be posting very often tho.

Originally posted by TracieJC
_Fate_

Seriously mate, I understand completely your desire to help build up Princesses confidence etc but really this is NOT the way to do it. In two of those photos you can barely see her face, just her chest. Disabled, able bodied, whatever, thats wrong. Thats no way to build up someones self respect. The portrait type picture of Princess you posted on the other thread, fair enough, but to show all these pictures of her bust just to get the forum to agree she has nice boobs - what is all that about? C'mon enough is enough now. xXPrincessXx has registered and posts, lets get to know her as a person.

I apologise. I was being stupid.

Originally posted by Deejay
I give the last post or thread about 5 more minutes..

why?


Oh, did I miss somert??????

Originally posted by evildrneil
Gratuitous cleavage shots are not really the way to go - post removed.

She's a very attractive girl but can we get to know her before finding out her bra size/whatever else size!?


Please tell me she didn't....

Fate, why don't you do yourself ( and us all ) a favour and ask xXprincessXx if she would like to be more than just a good friend.
It is nearly Valentines day, good luck.

Of course it wouldn't bother me - unless she was putting it on. Fate, I suspect your friend isn't disabled at all, just very, very lazy. And that my friend is one of the 7 deadly sins. Well, its actully sloth because laziness didn't sound like a deadly sin just that the person was being unduely picky.
Princess, how come your legs are ok indoors but as soon as you get out they become 'too weak'? Ye don't full me!!:D

Dude, she had a stroke when she was a baby. she can walk alrite inside because she has stuff to hold on to ... :rant:

Modesty, me and princess have already seen eachother for a months and we are now seperated. but remain friends ..

Originally posted by _Fate_
Dude, she had a stroke when she was a baby. she can walk alrite inside because she has stuff to hold on to ... :rant:

Dont get into it m8 - he's a ****

I cant believe he said that ... :evil:

Originally posted by _Fate_
I cant believe he said that ... :evil:

Sift through his other posts, you'll soon believe it.

Dont have the energy. Im gonna go play CounterStrike: Source for a while ... :D

I'm not sure that it's any of your business, miniminch...

I can walk a few steps, if I have the furniture to grab a hold of...
But outside, there isn't a sofa, or a chair, or a door-jamb to hold onto, every couple of steps, so *I* can't manage, either.

and yes, I find that I am worse outside than inside, with my mobility.


PT

Jeez. How can someone be so insensative ... :evil:

Most people are sensative even u in some places _Fate_ LOL.
Some people arent and it's only an oppinon, ok so its a bad one but its still an oppinon.

:: Note To All Forum Members ::

xXprincessXx is very bad with punctuation, grammar and spelling, please excuse her. And she is easily confused, and easily confuses others. Hense, her previous messege, where i was talking about INsensativity, and she replied with that. :D
No offence kirsty. :P

Originally posted by _Fate_
:: Note To All Forum Members ::

xXprincessXx is very bad with punctuation, grammar and spelling, please excuse her. And she is easily confused, and easily confuses others. Hense, her previous messege, where i was talking about INsensativity, and she replied with that. :D
No offence kirsty. :P


Is she unable to speak for herself?

Originally posted by t020
Is she unable to speak for herself?

Looks that way. Fate seems to be a very good publicist.

Originally posted by _Fate_
:: Note To All Forum Members ::

xXprincessXx is very bad with punctuation, grammar and spelling, please excuse her. And she is easily confused, and easily confuses others. Hense, her previous messege, where i was talking about INsensativity, and she replied with that. :D
No offence kirsty. :P
As the famous radio program was called
'does (s)he take sugar?'

I don't think I'm the only person in the forum uncomfortable about the turns this thread is taking, especially the matter of one forum member being spoken for by another.

Lets keep it on topic, shall we?

At the end of the day, if your current wife/husband/partner was in an acident that made them unable to walk/talk/hear/see or anything else like that, you wouldn't dump them would you? (I'd hope not anyway!).

If you met someone that was handicapped or disabled but you liked them and got on well, then why not? I think a point to address maybe though is how many people would bother to get to know someone handicapped? I'm not saying I wouldn't because I have friends who are handicapped (deaf, dwarf and chronic cystic fibrosis) and it doesn't bother me at all, but some people would never even think of becoming friends with someone they met int he pub or somewhere if they're handicapped. Does that make sense?

Handicapped people have their own personalities and shouldn't be judged on what they cannot do, but what qualities they do have and their individual personalities. I'm in a happy relationship but if I were single, being handicapped wouldn't be a problem for a potential boyfriend, providing you get on well and enjoy being together.

I work with people who have a mental health problem/learning disability/autism including Aspergers.
All of the people who I work with are really great people with a lot to offer.
They already have faced barriers in their lives at school and now in the field of employment.
The may also face the same a barriers when it comes to relationships.
Someone in my family has a disability and my son has epilepsy,dyspraxia and Aspergers.
A lot of people may not even know what any of these are.
To look at my son, most people would probably not be aware that on the face of it, there was anything wrong.Indeed ,dyspraxia is called 'The Hidden Handicap' as most health professions will know and understand.
That is the main problem,most people are ignorant about things like this and, particularly with mental health, people think it is still a taboo subject.Maybe I will start a thread out of interest to find out how many people know what any of these disabilities are and how would they treat someone who has these problems.
If the police, teachers and kids in school and employers understand the barriers and problems that people face, then we would all be able to get on a lot better .
If you did some research( and I know that this is done) in to the percentage of inmates in prison and looked at how many of these people are on the autistic spectrum, I am sure that it will be a very high percentage indeed.
There should be a way that we judge people on their potential and their attributes, not on what they look like.or what their hidden disability is.

Princess....

Can I ask you something seriously? Is Fate stalking/bothering you? Only it seems that the majority of his posts seem to be talking about you and how good you are? This would scare me a bit, he seems a little bit obsessive.

Fate can you not stop talking on her behalf? I'm sure she is able to speak for herself, and find some inner self confidence without you having to "intervene" for her. Besides being quite belittling, IMO, it's quite boring for the rest of us to be answering the same questions about whether the woman you fancy is attractive to the rest of us.

No offence to you Princess, I don't really think you're encouraging him that much.

I agree with BoroughGal...

_Fate_, you appear to be a classic case of being over protective... she's disabled, yes you've made that point... but she CAN look after herself and she really DOESN'T need you to talk for her, nor broadcast her breast size on the internet for half of yorkshire to read about

I'm sure you wouldn't take her to a night club and broadcast as loud as you can "HI THIS IS MY FRIEND, SHE IS DISABLED AND HAS HARDLY ANY SELF CONFIDENCE, BTW HER BREAST SIZE IS ..... "

I'm sure that would REALLY improve her self confidence, if in fact she actually has a low one...

Here's something you should take on-board mate, as I really think your missing a very vital point of life...

a physical disability is only partially a physical thing (if you wanna know why I'll gladly answer to anyone), and parts of a disability can be overcome by having a positive attitute, if you continue to treat her like some sort of a baby that can't look after herself then your really not helping her AT ALL...

Mod: This thread is now open for business again.

No, I wouldn't, couldn't, and shouldn't.

A physical handicap wouldn't bother me, unless they were ugly.

I think, personally, it would probably depend on the level of disability.

It might be shallow but i'm not sure if i'd date someone with no legs. now if she had legs but couldn't use them it would be different (for me).

might not be PC but that's how I'd probably feel.

As blade says, depends on the disability, if shes had her face melted off or summat or it required me to push her everywhere in a chair, put her on a stairlift, help her into the bath/car etc then no. If she was deaf then yes. People may disagree, but thats me.

A physical handicap wouldn't bother me, unless they were ugly.

So if they were a nice person other than being ugly, you'd still not go out with them?

You suck.

So if they were a nice person other than being ugly, you'd still not go out with them?

You suck.

Physical attraction is very importanat in a relationship.

You suck.

Keep it civil please guys.

I also despair at some of the comments on this thread, a disabled person is still a person despite being disabled, anyone who says disabled people aren't normal needs a slap, seriously IMO, define "normal"! :rant:

So if they were a nice person other than being ugly, you'd still not go out with them?

You suck.

Nope, sorry, it might be shallow but why would I want to go out with someone who doesn't turn me on ?

define "normal"! :rant:

Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

Nope, sorry, it might be shallow but why would I want to go out with someone who doesn't turn me on ?

Beauty is only skin deep, it's what they're like as a person that should matter.

Surely attraction needs to boil down to someone's personality as much as anything?

I'd rather have someone who was kind, and could hold a decent conversation, than someone "gorgeous" but with all the charisma and intellect of a slug...

Some of the biggest "lookers" have been so shallow and self obsessed. I also think it's somewhat shallow to go for physicality over glamour.

My body may not work exactly in the way I'd wish it to work, but I have my intellect, and I'm not a "bag of spanners".

dunno
doesnt it depend on the person, you could only say yes if you fancied them full stop

Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

So according to you, disabled people are un-natural or abnormal? :rant: :loopy:

You sir... Just, no, I am NOT getting banned on the count of the likes of YOU!

Beauty is only skin deep, it's what they're like as a person that should matter.

yeah, well I ain't getting into bed with a minger, no matter how nice a person they are.

Thats not to say I only want good looking, I want a good personallity too.

Of course I would.After all, everyone is disabled in some way, metaphorically speaking.There might be the most good looking able bodied person on earth, but inside that person may have a twisted heart and mind.If we all loved a little more and accepted things a little more, there would be no need for this thread.

Beauty is only skin deep

Of course it is. Whoever heard of a beautiful pancreas? :)

Looks may be responsible for initially attracting someone - but they don't keep them there.

There has to be a physical attraction - and lots of people find different things attractive.

At the end of the day I guess it's just a personal thing.

Of course I would.After all, everyone is disabled in some way, metaphorically speaking.There might be the most good looking able bodied person on earth, but inside that person may have a twisted heart and mind.If we all loved a little more and accepted things a little more, there would be no need for this thread.

Well said mate :clap:

Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

But, what is standard? what is common?

Old age is extremely common in southport, for example, but not so much elsewhere. (although I think they're only regular because of the prunes... lol)

It's surely "normal for the individual?"

So according to you, disabled people are un-natural or abnormal? :rant: :loopy:

You sir... Just, no, I am NOT getting banned on the count of the likes of YOU!

No, that was a dictionary definition actually.

My mate once had to snog a down-syndrome girl as a bet when she beat him in an arm wrestle. Tough cookie. They are still together and shes expecting in April.

My mate once had to snog a down-syndrome girl as a bet when she beat him in an arm wrestle. Tough cookie. They are still together and shes expecting in April.
expecting what in april? another armwrestle?

My best mate back in the College days was a Downs lad. We lost touch unfortunately a couple of years back, the poor kid can't talk very well so phone conversations aren't easy for him, so out of respect for this I tend not to phone him that often.

expecting what in april? another armwrestle?

As a former learning disability nurse, I was always taught that people with downs were subfertile, so it's quite interesting to hear of a case where the pretty-much impossible has happened.

expecting what in april? another armwrestle?

You been sniffing the sea air in Whitby again? :hihi:

She's expecting a baby ya daft 'erbert! :lol: :loopy:

As a former learning disability nurse, I was always taught that people with downs were subfertile, so it's quite interesting to hear of a case where the pretty-much impossible has happened.

I know, `Miracle` is the only word to describe.

Please don't feed the trolls :)

As a former learning disability nurse, I was always taught that people with downs were subfertile, so it's quite interesting to hear of a case where the pretty-much impossible has happened.

Fertility is reduced, but it is certainly not impossible.

Please don't feed the trolls :)

Surely even THEY cant degrade this type of thread.

Fertility is reduced, but it is certainly not impossible.

If it were impossible the gene (or whatever) that caused it would have died-out ages ago wouldn't it ?

Back on topic please guys.

:)

Fertility is reduced, but it is certainly not impossible.

I was taught that a male with trisomy 21 is almost definitely going to be sterile, and that the fertility of a female with Downs is so substantially reduced as to be almost nil. also the accompanying cardiological conditions like Atrioventricular canal defects (present in 45% of those with downs) Ventricular septal defects ( present in 35%); as well as mitral valve prolapse (present in 46% of adults with DS) make it extremely risky, if, by some amazing stroke of "luck" , a female with downs actually manages to concieve.

If it were impossible the gene (or whatever) that caused it would have died-out ages ago wouldn't it ?

no, becasue the gene for Downs (trisomy 21) is usually a spontaneous mutation, not something passed down in the same manner as, say muscular dystrophy.

no, becasue the gene for Downs (trisomy 21) is usually a spontaneous mutation, not something passed down in the same manner as, say muscular dystrophy.

I didn't know that, so it's completely random ?

Steven Hawkings been married and divorced twice.

Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it.... Spruce is winding you up!!

Steven Hawkings been married and divorced twice.

He's famous and (probably) fairly rich though.

I didn't know that, so it's completely random ?

It can be influenced, such as the age of the mother etc. I think the odds are one in 1000-1200 of pregnancies resulting in a Down.

Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it.... Spruce is winding you up!!

I beg your pardon?

I didn't know that, so it's completely random ?

yes it's a random thing, although age of the parent is a strong factor in a baby having downs. it's believed, in some quarters, that the dna breaks down somewhat as the egg ages, and causes the "Glitches".

it can be as high as 1 in 25 for a mother conceiving over the age of 45.

see here for info on DS

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/peds_genetics/downs.cfm

I would have no problem dating a person who was physically handicapped. I'm assuming that this hypothetical person is partially mobile (not bedridden, for example) and has a generally positive outlook on his abilities and disabilities.

I would date someone who is physically handicapped and have done so.

I would date someone who is physically handicapped and have done so.


Likewise, I've found the character of many disabled people to be something I've been blown away by, not because they are disabled, but just because of their outlook on life.

They could all read me like a book, a very rare trait.

Not an issue for me whatsoever. See the person for who they are and not what they are.

I was taught that a male with trisomy 21 is almost definitely going to be sterile, and that the fertility of a female with Downs is so substantially reduced as to be almost nil. also the accompanying cardiological conditions like Atrioventricular canal defects (present in 45% of those with downs) Ventricular septal defects ( present in 35%); as well as mitral valve prolapse (present in 46% of adults with DS) make it extremely risky, if, by some amazing stroke of "luck" , a female with downs actually manages to concieve.isnt the post about having a date with someone who is handicapped,? why does sex have to come into it? a date is a day or night out,not a presumed marriage or long term relationship surely, i would go out with someone who has disabilities because i would like them as a person,not because i wanted sex with them,im sure personality counts for something ,even if its just because i get on with the person in question

There is absolutely no need to ask this question. The British male was tested on this very question on a tv programme called "Balls Of Steel" a few years ago. The 5 min article called "Man Tester" can be found on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bwjr5qSfkY

Enjoy.

:)

Not an issue for me whatsoever. See the person for who they are and not what they are.

Exactly what I've been saying all along mate.

i agree with you physically handicapped or not its the person inside that counts

i agree with you physically handicapped or not its the person inside that counts

Precisely. I live next door to a wheelchair bound girl with Cerebal Palsy, and couldn't wish for a better neighbour, not that I see that much of her except now and again in passing between houses.

Precisely. I live next door to a wheelchair bound girl with Cerebal Palsy, and couldn't wish for a better neighbour, not that I see that much of her except now and again in passing between houses.

Yeah, but would you go out with her ?

The question isn't "Do you think dissabled people are nice ?" it's "Would you date a dissabled person ?", two different things IMO.

I agree what was said earlier I dont see how and one can be sure until they were in that position, its easy to say yea or no but its not so clear cut.

Dont think it would bother me as such,the only thing that would bother me is the person playing on their disability to get their own way,you know the sort..Iv got a pain in my back..they reply you ought to have what Iv got then you can start complaining..I dont think I could cope with that.

Dont think it would bother me as such,the only thing that would bother me is the person playing on their disability to get their own way,you know the sort..Iv got a pain in my back..they reply you ought to have what Iv got then you can start complaining..I dont think I could cope with that.

That could make for an interesting version of top trumps...

It's not something I've thought about either way. It's the kind of the thing you face if / when you come to it I'd have thought. You've got to like and be attracted to the person before the question of a date comes into it. If the attraction is there then you consider it from there I suppose.

Yeah, but would you go out with her ?

The question isn't "Do you think dissabled people are nice ?" it's "Would you date a dissabled person ?", two different things IMO.


That is true. As I was pondering this question again last night, I realized that I'd pictured a man with a very neat, tidy, discreet form of physical disability -- that is, he used a wheelchair. I'm not so sure I'd even think of a person with cerebral palsy or muscular dystrophy or multiple sclerosis as a potential date, which just highlights my own unwitting prejudices.

A physical handicap wouldn't bother me, unless they were ugly.

nick, youre obviously mellowing (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=270848&postcount=18) ;)

although, i have to admit....i am the shallow person that you were back in the day.


x