what;s wrong with today's kids? - too many do-gooders in my opinion.
bring back the discipline - at home and in school
teach them respect - if it means bringing back the cane then so be it - if it means a slap on the legs then so be it
make parents take responsibiltiy for their kids
what a society we live in when people fear kids - teachers getting attacked, people walking the streets getting attacked by groups of youths, bus stops being smashed, grafitti, stabbings, muggings, and if you're really lucky just a bit of verbal abuse - many of these as young as eleven!

They all deserve a bloody good kicking.
And sterilisation would not go a miss.
then another kicking.

Originally posted by neeeeeeeeeek
They all deserve a bloody good kicking.
And sterilisation would not go a miss.
then another kicking.

Inclined to agree at times.. rest of the time I mute them out :D

I am sorry, but it not on, hiding behind a fake log-in to say these things, only being 24 I still have seen corporal punishment having lived in the Isle of man were it is still acceptable. and to put it in context, the isle of man still has public flogging and makes homosexuality illegal, they have no morals and no acceptance of others views. Having never been smacked or punished at all in my life I have total respect for all around me. have never caused anyone any pain. It is violence or smacking or attitudes of parents that cause all this kind of trouble in the first place, God help your children, you narrow minded self satisfied individual.
Sorry but it is people like yourselves that cause half the trouble in this world.
Grrrrrrrr.
rant over.

And discipline in school only makes kids loose all respect in authority, dont get me started on that. ARGH, the narrowminded stupidty of some people.

which goes to prove a point aNTacid - no discipline - you can't even put forward a point of view without bad language and aggression.

by the way aNTacid my kids are now grown up, happy and CONTRIBUTE to society
a disciplined kid is a cared for kid

I'm sorry for my previous outburst, but when you are surrounded and subjugated from all angles from an early age, you suddenly lose all respect for authority. I have tried to counter the system that makes these problems, and having campaigned against previous schools with full support from my parents, and been treated like dirt because of appearance or attitude and general derogatory attitude from the educational system, you realise you can not win through rational argument. I then went on to study a philosophy degree to put my point across and still find that the authorities that be will not listen even when you put forth the most rational argument there can possibly be, it just makes me really mad, and this coming from one of the most pacifistic people you will meet, I just lose all hope for any from of justice system of future for personkind when educational and parental attitudes exist like this. And what do you mean by CONTRIBUTE to society, you implying that I don't, and what exactly is a contribution to todays society, when society seems to be so messed up. And do you think they wouldn't have been this way if you hadn't have smacked them or showed them discipline?
Sorry to get into this argument because I know I am in the minority and from past experience I know that I will be shouted down by those that like to show their authority or power, it is the quiet mild mannered individuals with a reasonable perspective that always lose becasue they want to avoid the confronatation.
Love and Peace.
J

a disciplined kid is a cared for kid [/B]
Are you implying my parents didn't care for me, you arrogant so and so, whats is wrong with an explanation to your child of the meanings of right and wrong, or is it just easier for you to deal out a swift smack. Much easier than teaching your child, just make them learn through pain. Well I always heard that the best way of making your dog stop messing on your carpet is to rub their nose in their own mess, lets treat our kids like this too hey?
I am being extreme and facetious now, but I just get really riled because I know I will never win this argument against the bullies in this world.

They are product of today adults.

Sorry but many kids don't give a fk anymore because they know they are untouchable. They can say what the like to anyone and everyone with no concern as they know they can't even get shouted at without someone rushing up and calling it abuse. I am not talking about kids getting a beating but the fact that even the police can't do anything to stop wayward scallies without risk of prosecution. It comes to something when gangs of 14 /15 year olds can start throwing stones through your 80 year old nans windows and threatening them every time they come out the door, and you know that there is nothing you can do or say that will deter them, including threats or calling the police.
If I ever have children I would like to bring them up in a loving environment so they respect others, perhaps like you were. It seems to me that not everyone adopts a similar attitude which may be why so many youngsters don’t give a toss. I am not saying it's a good thing, far from it, but it seems to be the way it is. Great rant , just seems a little miss guided in my opinion.

Teeb how can you be so stereotypical?!

You have made absolutely no mention of any of the well behaved, balanced and happy young people who have been brought up in todays society, in schools free from the cane. The majority of them work hard and deserve praise, such as Sadik http://www.sadikmiah.org.uk/

Do you actually know any children (not that I would wish it upon any child to be aquainted with someone with your views) or do you just watch it all on television? Because I recently worked with some kids aged 7-11 on a community project in Manor. They were amongst the nicest and best behaved kids I have ever met, who were full of enthusiasm and good ideas.

These so called 'kids' you are on about - not many 11 year olds are the ones going around doing the stabbing etc - they are fully grown adults of all ages who should take full responsability for their own actions. If kids are being set a bad example, how can they be expected to become someone that would meet your approval? The last thing kids need is any kind of violence, either in the home or at school in order to 'discipline' them - it just gives the wrong message that violence is acceptable.

:D I know it is very idealistic, but if kids are brought up in the right way then there should never be any need for any form of violence from family or society, if a child is taught right from wrong and respect for fellow man/woman then there should never be a reason to discipline them because they know not to do wrong in the first place. A large problem with children and adults alike today is that they are taught not to get CAUGHT doing something wrong as opposed to not doing it in the first place, and that is all that discipline tells them, dont get caught doing this, as opposed to not doing it because it is fundemantally wrong to do it., I suppose my head may be in the clouds believing that we could all live this way. But I can but hope :)

I'm a perfectly well balanced upstanding and criminal record free member of society.
As a child I constantly scrapped with other kids, threw bricks through windows, stole the odd thing and was warned for trespass.
My dad used to shoot at farm hands with an air-gun, ride bikes under age and poach fish from private waters.
My grandad .....blah blah blah blah.....

There is only one discovery from this thread - you have become old. Well done!

Violence leads to violence. If you 'punish' your kids in violent means, they will learn that violence is acceptable...and in turn they are more likely to become violent to other people and to become deviants.

Antacid
Why do you think the crime figures are lower in the Isle of Man than on the Mainland ?
Don't you think there could possibly be a connection , in the U.K. with the rising violence and vandalism and the erosion of authority over the last 30 years ?
Obviously , not every child NEEDS punishment but nearly all teenagers "push to the limit", especially in a group and if there are few or no limits , then we end up with what we've got now on our estates and in our classrooms.

This seems to me like the old blaming the young ( as usual), surely if there is a serious problem it's the fault of society and the children's parents..

Originally posted by LBoogie
Violence leads to violence. If you 'punish' your kids in violent means, they will learn that violence is acceptable...and in turn they are more likely to become violent to other people and to become deviants.

Nah! I was severely punished as a kid and I've never hurt a fly.

Mind you, it would help if someone got me out of these chains I've been in since 1977. Dad's discipline worked with me, alright.

Joking aside, kids are heavily influenced by what adults do. They see it on TV, in the soaps, they see it in sport (overpaid footballers with their handbags) and they begin to think it as acceptable. They get their foul language off who? Us!

We're all to blame to some degree.

Kids are not born as they are.

They are a product of todays socialisation in the home and schools. Blame the parents and schools I say.

Or at least postpone these punishments for 5 months until I am 18!
(if you count everyone under 18 a kid)

I had a pretty good upbringing. My parents loved me and looked after me and I rarely got into trouble - but when I stepped out of line I bloody knew it.

My kids know if they step out of line they will get punished, but what more can a parent do these days than GROUND or REMOVE TREATS AND PRIVILEGES and SHOUT? One of my kids does things I'd never have dreamed of doing to my parents and it's really frustrating because I no longer know what to do for the best.

The problem seems to be the minority giving the majority a bad name, as usual. Ok, so there are kids who get into trouble and up to no good, but it is not always their fault, if they have been set a bad example.

As I said before, it is not the kids doing the muggings, it's adults.

I don't think it is fair to talk about "kids these days" because I am not convinced that they are much worse than before. Surely every generation thinks this about "the youth"? Is it not possible that before television and radio and the internet were so commonplace things were just as bad we just didn't hear about it as much before?!

Back in those days though, if you stepped out of line, you'd get a slap from the local police officer, or your school headmaster/mistress. Then if you told your parents you'd got a slap when you got home, you'd get another one.

When I was in school (not too long ago really) the thought of mugging a teacher was unheard of. Being cheeky towards a teacher wasn't an option either. I knew I'd be for it.

A large number of teenagers DO hang about street corners smoking, drinking and swearing at anyone who tells them to buggar off home. The problems then escalate. It's a fact that is presenting itself all over Britain.

Do-gooders have a lot to answer for.

Originally posted by MovingOn

Do-gooders have a lot to answer for.

I do take your point, and have no problem with parents smacking their kids (gently) if they really deserve it. My parents smacked me occasionally, and I will smack my kids if it is apropriate.

However, do-gooders have actually done a lot of good in terms of reducing child abuse and paedophilia...

If I was to slap/smack one of you, would you respect me for it? Even if you'd done wrong would you feel respect, or would you feel resentment and anger?

There are other ways to teach right and wrong, and it's down to the parents to instill values from a very early age. The problem is so many parents couldn't care less and some of those that are trying to control their kids lack consistency and guidance. There is a lot of support and advice (health visitors/baby and toddler groups etc) for parents of younger children, yet very little once they turn school age.

Originally posted by beckyaa
I do take your point, and have no problem with parents smacking their kids (gently) if they really deserve it. My parents smacked me occasionally, and I will smack my kids if it is apropriate.

However, do-gooders have actually done a lot of good in terms of reducing child abuse and paedophilia...
i was smacked by parents and i turned out ok, ill be doing the same to my kids when i get em. Obviously there are boundaries and limits, but a sharp smack to stop a child touching a hot plate or screaming for attention cant be a bad thing.
Some parents do do awful things and some beat their kids, so thank god for the NSPCC etc....

Originally posted by beckyaa
I
However, do-gooders have actually done a lot of good in terms of reducing child abuse and paedophilia...

How? By letting the paedo's back into the community to do it again like that millionaire scummer in his 60's who kept getting let out and reoffended, then got let out and reoffended etc etc?

I am sorry for this rant, cos you will all think I am some sort of nutter but humans need deterrents to stop them doing things that are unacceptable to society. There are no deterrents today, look at the couple who killed the three ywar old they fostered by feeding him salt...they got 5 years each! Bloody hell a few years ago they would have been sent down for a 25 stretch without parole. Thats whats wrong with society and we will all learn our lessons when its too late. Shame on the lilly livered numpties who seem to live in cloud cuckoo land believing that eventually if we empower everybody they will all use their freedom to do what they like in the best way possible. As always many humans will abuse their freedom as is happening now.

Ok, lets hear it from those who think I am some right winged bigot..I am actually an old school red blooded labour voter who is sick of kids hanging around the streets causing trouble and shouting at innocent passers by then beating the crap outta them cos theres more of them than the one of you. I have seen this happen many times down here in Essex, which isnt half as bad as Sheffield for criminality..so I wonder what its like up there now? I grew up in Pitsmoor in the 70's 80's and early 90's so I have seen lots of things happen of this nature but its seems like even posh kids do it now!

Cant wait for the slagging off I get but I dont care

Hatter, I'd almost certainly slap you back because you have no right or authority to infringe me. Parents are ultimately responsible for their children and are honour bound to bring them up to be responsible people. There are those who would rather breed ignorantly of their responsibilities and throw their children onto the street corners to whatever fate... Discipline consists of punishment to fit the crime and boundaries - but the key point to a happy family is a stable and loving home environment. How many of us can say that they actually like having their children around? How many of us actively encourage our children to do their homework and check it? How many of us sit down and play games with our children and teach them right from wrong within the home environment?

The children these days fear nothing. The majority don't believe in God - therefore fearing no great punishment from an omnipotent power. They no longer fear the repercussions of their actions from the law or their parents. They know if they flout the law too much they'll get a holiday in Disneyland at the tax payers expense.

Do gooders have done nothing for those who have suffered child abuse and paedophilia - in fact they've only served to drag the whole sordid business underground. Look at those in the police force who have recently been exposed!

There are different ways of raising children, I'm sure. You will find however, that what works for one child will not work for another and there's no sure fire way of success. You just do as the generations before you... Your best!

Originally posted by Tony_BLiar
Ok, lets hear it from those who think I am some right winged bigot..I am actually an old school red blooded labour voter


Perhaps you will now be an ex Labour voter ;) as Tony's tough on crime policy has translated into nothingness in the real world which we inhabit.

PS I agree with you entirely and I am not a Labour voter but an ex Labour voter myself.

How many times have you watched the news where an old lady has been mugged and beaten by a gang of 14 year olds? How many times have you seethed inside? How many times have you wished you had a time machine so you could be there at the time so you could dish out some much needed punishment? I know I have.

Kids do know right from wrong - its just that some of them dont care. These are the ones that should be targetted by neighbourhood patrols and driven up onto the moors and told to start digging. Problem solved.

I firmly believe that discipline, instilling moral value and teaching respect for others, their property and the law are unheard of by certain parents.

Children learn by example and parental responsibility means just that - If people teach their kids that thieving, mooching of the state, violence and lawlessness are acceptable then they'll just end up as a product of their environment.

I would love to see national service re-introduced, Imagine an army of slack jawed, burberry wearing oiks complaining to a massive Drill Sgt....

"Yeah but no but yeah, like you cant MAKE me go over that assault course, arr Kev says you can't cos it's like against our human rights!"

And the replying argument would be sharp, short and sweet!

Originally posted by MovingOn
Hatter, I'd almost certainly slap you back

Fair enough, I would as well. The only time my mum slapped me, I slapped her straight back (I was 14). I felt awful after, for slapping her that is, not for what I'd originally done wrong.

The only time I have slapped my son (he was kicking me in the face- he's autistic by the way, and his emotions and feelings are very much on the surface) he kicked me back so much harder- it was so obvious that my momentary loss of control backfired and taught him nothing beneficial.

I agree that the young troublemakers of today need a much bigger detterent, if they stood to lose more, they might think twice. They probably don't have much to lose though, apart from their credibility with their mates, and when an ASBO is seen as an achievement then things have to be taken a whole lot further.

I'm tempted say bring back stocks for both the offenders (and their parents- if necessary)- that'd bring them down a peg or two.

I wonder where the "do-gooders" got their mentality from ? Probably a desperate and stubborn feeling that they have to follow any new child-rearing idea that comes from California.
Anybody with even a minimum of experience or /and knowledge of teenagers...et ..al...can see and must know that a lot of teenagers , particularly groups of boys will behave violently and anti--socially if they know there is nothing to fear. We certainly did and throughout written history young males have often been in the vanguard of bad behaviour.
Nobody is saying that they "were born like that"--but males seem naturally more aggressive , more "physical " , more rowdy than any other section of society.
Don't the "do--gooders" ever read the papers or watch or listen to what's happening all round them ?
Some kids need to be frightened for their own good or even hurt physically. You wouldn't think twice about yanking a toddler roughly from the path of a 10-ton lorry---even it hurt the child a bit.Why , then do people go all coy and nearly have a fit when anyone mentions physical punishment for wild kids or thugs. The principle is exactly the same:---you are using extreme measures to stop someone immature coming from harm.You may be saving the young thug from a life of crime or drugs. O.K. you may fail---just as the young toddler may run in front of a bus the next day , but you try----but how people can sit back and send in a couple of a counsellors , beats me [no pun intended].

I would like it clear that I do not condone child BEATING - I am talking discipline here - albeit I do not consider a school caning or a short sharp slap beating.

I have NEVER beaten my kids nor have I ever been beaten - however I was brought up to respect adults, respect peoples property, to say please and thank you, to igve up a seat to an elderly person etc etc.

I do admit to giving my kids a smack when appropriate - i myself was smacked OCCASIONALLY as a child, though I cannot recall any specific incident because they were so rare - obviously i was only smacked when i well deserved it.

Do these do-gooders really think they are being kind to children by refraining responsible adults from disciplining them so that they don't grow up into young thugs and criminals with no job prospects or future?

Let's differentiate from the Child Beaters, the responsible parents who use reasonable punishment, and the lazy parents who just can't be bothered as long as their kids are out of the way causing others grief but not themselves.

Originally posted by aNTAcid
Are you implying my parents didn't care for me, you arrogant so and so, whats is wrong with an explanation to your child of the meanings of right and wrong, or is it just easier for you to deal out a swift smack. Much easier than teaching your child, just make them learn through pain. Well I always heard that the best way of making your dog stop messing on your carpet is to rub their nose in their own mess, lets treat our kids like this too hey?
I am being extreme and facetious now, but I just get really riled because I know I will never win this argument against the bullies in this world.

AnTAcid, the fact that I stated a disciplined child is a cared for child was not aimed at you personally - it is my opinion.

I note that you have now edited out your bad language in your first post - I merely pointed out that it was a show of agression.

This subject is contraversial and I'm sure everyone will have differing points of view which people may be interested in - being aggressive and using bad language goes no way to make your point of view credible - just another couple of things my children learned whilst growing up.

I would like to make it clear that i have never beaten my kids, nor have I dealt out a smack without trying to reason with them - if that fails then yes, a swift smack they have got.

My kids recall their childhood as happy, they do not have memories of being beaten because they haven't - when I say they contribute to society, I maybe should have said they are not a burden on society as many are - they are responsible, kind, hard working young adults helping to make the world a better place!

Bullies or caring parents just wanting their children to have a future?