Ok theres a lot of gumpff going on , which says people must either be postgrads or the elusive professional.

A hooker who is very good at her/his job could be deemed to be professional.

Just what is a professional and are we sure all those who claim to be so actually are?

Professional = in career and member of a professional body.

e.g.s of top of my head:
IT - BCS
Accountant - CIMA, ACCA
Doctor - BMC

Originally posted by t020
Professional = in career and member of a professional body.
e.g.s of top of my head:
IT - BCS
Accountant - CIMA, ACCA
Doctor - BMC

I think that's a bit elitist. t020

I'm a professional. And am not a member of any professional body, although I could be. There is something to be said about the ego of certain people who spend their lives collecting meaningless letters at the end of their name. And I'm not talking about a proper degree.

I would have thought that Professional would describe someone who had a worthwhile qualification and demonstrates a certain amount of expertise in that subject area and follows it for their career.

Originally posted by 999tigger
Ok theres a lot of gumpff going on , which says people must either be postgrads or the elusive professional.

A hooker who is very good at her/his job could be deemed to be professional.

Just what is a professional and are we sure all those who claim to be so actually are?
A "Professional" works for CI5, to check this ask to see thier ID card.

Bodie & Doyle were the most famous ones, but I can't remember them ever coming to Sheffield (let alone living here).

I think the term "professional" or "young professional" is a bit of an umbrella term for people who are in employment etc. They may not have a degree or some other qualification but have worked hard to get where there are.

Like myself for instance - I am professional in my work but I do not have a degree. In fact, part of my job is to appear "professional" to clients (and no I'm not a hooker!)

You don't have to be a doctor to be considered a better person.

Am I a professional? I'm a company director.

Originally posted by NicoleM
You don't have to be a doctor to be considered a better person.

Of course you do *underlines the Dr bit in the name* :p

Originally posted by evildrneil
Of course you do *underlines the Dr bit in the name* :p


oooo controversial!

All too elitist in my book. I find the whole thing amusing. We can't all be doctors, hookers or Lewis Collins. There exists more than student or professional.

Nicole as for professionals working hard, ermm some of the biggest tssers I know are in that bracket and just about bone idle.

I'm inclined to agree with t020 - I think a professional is someone who has a 'profession'. Such as a lawyer, an architect etc. Someone who provides a private professional service to the public (and by this I do not mean a hooker, before anyone suggets it!). It is not being elitist either, I would not call the managing director of a major telecommunications company (for example) a professional, despite probably being higher earning and more powerful than a lawyer or an architect.

I don't think it is a generic term for anyone in employment. Being professional at your job is not the same a being a professional.

Isnt it just someone who is in full time employment? to distinguish between those who work and those who dont?

Originally posted by stellamarie
Isnt it just someone who is in full time employment? to distinguish between those who work and those who dont?

Isn't that employed and unemployed?!

A professional is someone who is good at their job every day, whether they feel like it or not.

That's what the word means.

B

Take your point Bourne, but I still think there is a difference between being professional in your job, and being a professional.

I used to work in certain well known fastfood place when doing my a-levels, and although I was good at my job, and acted professionally, could I have been described as a professional? I don't think so.

But my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives two definitions, so guess I can't argue with that...

professional [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a person who has the type of job that needs a high level of education and training:
e.g. health professionals


Becky is right that there is a difference between the adjective and noun forms. It's all open to a level of subjectivity though, which is why a definition involving belonging to a recognised professional body clarifies things somewhat. Either way, when an estate agent uses the term "young professional" they don't really care how accurate it is - it sounds good and makes people with aspirations take an interest (if they're vulnerable to estate agents' hyperbole).

Originally posted by t020
professional [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a person who has the type of job that needs a high level of education and training:
e.g. health professionals


My job requires a high level of education and training, but I don't have either, I got the job on my experience, I'm doing the job so am I a professional ?

I think in terms of the housing market it means someone who is employed and (key point) has a career, not just a job.

I don't think membership of a professional body is required, afterall you could be a professional retail manager, I don't think there's a professional body to represent them though.

It is a bit vague really, I call myself a young professional, working in the computer industry with a computing degree and it being my career. My other half also calls herself a professional, but then she's a member of the IMecheE and has a masters in Mech Eng.

I think that the term has changed over time. A hundred years ago, say, a profession was being a doctor or a clergyman or a lawyer etc. Now that far fewer people work in industrys like manufacturing, the meaning has changed.

If you were a professional retail manager, and you were filling out a form that asked you what your occupation was, you would have a choice of three options - retail, managerial, or professional. I think that a professional retail manager would fall into the category of one of the 1st two options.

It's very subjective, but I still think that although you don't necessarily have to be a member of a professional body, t020 is right there is a difference between the adjective and noun forms
As I have explained before, I don't think a professional means anyone who works or even has a career necessarily, that is someone who is professional, not a professional.

But maybe I'm just being pedantic...

most insurance forms on the net do not have either retail or managerial as an option.

In fact here is the list from privilege insurance

Professional
Company Director
Skilled
Manual
Clerical
Customer Services
H M Forces
Drivers
Motor Trade
Housewife/Husband
Proprietor
Student
Retired
Unemployed

So unless you can count managment roles as 'skilled' which I don't think you can (not that it doesn't require skill, but a skilled job imho refers to something like anc welding or electricians etc... a skilled trade, not a profession), then it has to come under professional.

professional rather than: students; part time workers; the unemployed

Obviously every form will differ, but this MSN careers form has so many categories I'm not even going to attempt to list them here. http://careers.msn.com/

They include a range of roles such as Accountant, Business Development, IT, HR, Management, Retail etc, and a category called Professional Services.

Not that I'm suggesting MSN careers is the most reliable source... but I still think there is a difference. I'm not trying to suggest that one persons job is necessarily 'better' than anothers just because I would class them as a professional, because they are all being professional.

As we have discovered on this thread, it is very subjective.

On another note sblashill - I wouldn't say part time workers don't come under professionals necessarily!! Lots of mothers work part time, doesn't stop them from being professionals!

i think that the insurance industry uses a standard form, as i've seen the same categories on tescos, norwich union, privilege, eagle star etc...
I don't suppose there is a standard list within the housing market though.

Some of the categories you mention there clearly fall under the bracket of professional, those are professions. Accountancy is a profession, with a governing body. I've no idea what 'Professional Services' are, but I expect that most people who consider themselves professionals could find there specific profession on that list, so it's not a very good indication of what is a profession and what is a trade or just a job.

sblashill professional rather than: students; part time workers; the unemployed
and rather than laborours, tradesmen, self employed etc... it's a lot more specific than anyone not in the 3 categories you mention.

Originally posted by Cyclone

and rather than laborours, tradesmen, self employed etc... it's a lot more specific than anyone not in the 3 categories you mention.

Hmmm, don't think we are ever going to be able to categorise this so that everyone agrees,

BUT I am self-employed (part time!) and still a member of a professional body...

Originally posted by beckyaa
Hmmm, don't think we are ever going to be able to categorise this so that everyone agrees,

BUT I am self-employed (part time!) and still a member of a professional body...

i suppose that can apply to most professions, contracting engineers or programmers for example are self employed and could be part time if they wished, but are still in a profession.

Well being a letting agent we deal with many different professions etc, but we only have 2 catagories on our forms, Students and Professionals, it seems to have always worked for us.
There would be no point whatsoever having many different catagories, it would be irrelevant.

So that means you could have a student hooker and then one who has graduated?

Professionals are those with a profession.
It can get even more elitist and consist of those with their own charter and governing body such as lawyers and doctors.
The point is there are more people than just students and doctors.

Originally posted by jonhanson
Well being a letting agent we deal with many different professions etc, but we only have 2 catagories on our forms, Students and Professionals, it seems to have always worked for us.
There would be no point whatsoever having many different catagories, it would be irrelevant.

you must have a very limited client base.

No not really we either have ppl who work or ppl who study, its the same with the many other landlords and letting agencies we know, it is pointless to catagorise ppl when it doesnt need to be done.
Yeh sure we take note of what they do but thats all that needs to be noted, so we can let any other tenants in the houses know first before we give a yes or no.

Originally posted by jonhanson
No not really we either have ppl who work or ppl who study,

Well that is fine, if that is all the information you need, but that doesn't mean someone who works is the same as a professional. It is often used in the context you have described, which is fine, but for some things it might matter, such as the example Cyclone gave of Insurance companies.
For your purposes it doesn't matter what a professional is - it means anyone who is not a student. But not everyone who works is a professional.

Sorry the point of the post, is that recently I have seen a lot of people carrying themselves off as professionals. They have proceeded to draw the distinction as a status thing, but they are clearly not professionals. Just a few grads etc.

Lots of honest hard working non professional people out there. Just the snobbery of it left me feeling a bit queasy.

I agree, and sorry if I sound like I'm being snobby, because I don't mean to be. You are right tigger, it is used as a status thing, and all I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether you are a professional or not, but personally I think there is a difference between professional and someone who works or has a career.
And now I'm going to try not to say anything else on this topic because I think I have more than made my point...

Originally posted by t020
Professional = in career and member of a professional body.

e.g.s of top of my head:
IT - BCS
Accountant - CIMA, ACCA
Doctor - BMC

If i was looking for someone to move into my house that's the type of person i'd look for

Oh no worries beckyaa
Just found the inverted snobbery a bit amusing and also some of the people insisting they were professionals a bit funny.

This isn't sour grapes on my part either.
I have degrees and four real sets of professional qualifications.

Originally posted by 999tigger
So that means you could have a student hooker and then one who has graduated?

Professionals are those with a profession.
It can get even more elitist and consist of those with their own charter and governing body such as lawyers and doctors.
The point is there are more people than just students and doctors.

Quite a few professions have charters/ governing bodies, not just lawyers and doctors. AFAIK, other professions like IT, accountancy, veterinary surgeons, dentists, etc, all have a formal body of some kind. Those who aren't professional aren't all students - they may be managerial, skilled workers, semi-skilled workers, or unskilled workers.

I think there are different levels of what we think is 'professional'.

For example, if we look at jobs that cannot be done by anybody (or even atempted by anybody reasonably) who could walk in off the street to a reasonable standard at least.

If you take a doctor for example, its their knowledge and experience that makes them professional (some more than other in certain areas). Although I might be as professional in my own chosen area, I wouldnt trust anybody else to deal with any medical problems for example. Bit like a financial advisor, dealing with your money etc.

Levels of professionalism :)

Ok accepted professions
Doctor
Lawyer: solicitor or barrister
Accountant
Vet

I forgot to add the queen of the professions which is the architect doh!

Nurses and teachers are admitted.
Politicians are excluded.

Originally posted by 999tigger

I have degrees and four real sets of professional qualifications.

How many degrees have you got?!

I'm a chartered town planner but am thinking of going for chartered surveyor status too - i tell most people i'm a surveyor anyhow as generally telling folk i'm a planner leads to more questions while telling them i'm a surveyor they just nod (and move on!)

Originally posted by 999tigger
Ok accepted professions
Doctor
Lawyer: solicitor or barrister
Accountant
Vet

Mechanical Engineers
Electrical Engineers
Various other types of Engineers.

Interestingly enough, to call yourself an engineer you must belong to the relevant governing body.
However in the IT industry I don't actually know a single person who belongs to the BCS, and despite me going to university with the Chairmans daughter I never bothered to join myself.

Originally posted by Bedhead
How many degrees have you got?!

I'm a chartered town planner but am thinking of going for chartered surveyor status too - i tell most people i'm a surveyor anyhow as generally telling folk i'm a planner leads to more questions while telling them i'm a surveyor they just nod (and move on!)

<< Building Surveyor ;)

Be going for APC soon enough :)

Originally posted by Cyclone
Interestingly enough, to call yourself an engineer you must belong to the relevant governing body.

Not true. My mate is an Electronic engineer with a degree in Electronics and for a few years was a member of the IEE, and as such was entiled to be a CENG instead of BENG. But he got little benefits from joining as he now works as a programmer. And has let his membership lapse.

He is an Engineer.

I never applied to my professional body because it is a waste of money. Unless you work for a huge company where irrelivences like this are valued, and they pay for your subscription anyhow.

Cyclone to be a chartered engineer, you have to be a member of a professional body, but an engineer you can be with a qualification in the subject above BTEC Certificate (ONC) which only entitles you to call yourself a Technician

surely he is just someone with a degree in electronics now.

it could be the Chartered status which cannot be claimed without the IEE or equivalent body.

Originally posted by Cyclone
surely he is just someone with a degree in electronics now.

it could be the Chartered status which cannot be claimed without the IEE or equivalent body.

Yes you're right he is Just an Electronic Engineer now. Not a chartered Electronic Engineer.

Electronics is a form of engineering, so is electrics, software, building, mechanics etc..

Originally posted by Cyclone
Mechanical Engineers
Electrical Engineers
Various other types of Engineers.

Interestingly enough, to call yourself an engineer you must belong to the relevant governing body.
However in the IT industry I don't actually know a single person who belongs to the BCS, and despite me going to university with the Chairmans daughter I never bothered to join myself.

I was going to join the BCS, but thought it was a waste of time.

I always thought a proffesional was someone that just got paid for what they were doing, i use to get paid for cleaning houses
so i considered my self a proffesionl house cleaner ! you don't have to be good at what you're doing, just to get paid for it.

Like an athlete can play for years without pay, as soon as he gets paid it makes him a PRO.

sport is a different kettle of fish. I don't think you can consider yourself a professional if your profession is cleaner, I think it comes under unskilled labour.

Originally posted by Cyclone
sport is a different kettle of fish. I don't think you can consider yourself a professional if your profession is cleaner, I think it comes under unskilled labour.

But what if you cleaned priceless oil paintings or chandaliers (no idea how you spell that, big light fitting with sparkly bits) or mummified cats (I'm rambling now), that is a skilled profession ?

I'm still wondering why anyone would want to boil some poor fish. :hihi:

u guys think 2 much!!!! lol

Perhaps Landlords could explain their definition of the kind of tenant they want?

I have now read very many different ideas. I guess then like beauty, being professional is in the eye of the beholder. I do not care what the books, websites, insurance companys say. I have decided to make my own mind up about what a professional is and so should you.

accountant, vet, doctor

I think landlords just use it as short hand for "middle class".

England is one of the most class ridden/prejudiced places in the world - but people are quite shy about coming straight out with it...