Historian Michael Burleigh recently called The Holocaust, "The most evil act of the century". Many would agree. However, does it have to be eternal penitance for Germany?

Originally posted by timo
Historian Michael Burleigh recently called The Holocaust, "The most evil act of the century". Many would agree. However, does it have to be eternal penitance for Germany?

I don't know about other people, but I really don't associate the modern Germany with evil acts.

There were comparible acts in the twentieth century, I don't really think it is a good line to go down to discuss whether Hitler, or Stalin or Pol Pot or whoever else were guilty of the worse crimes - at the end of the day it is a debatable point and doesn't really matter. What does matter is learning from the past - whatever nations citizens were responsible for past ills.

I think WW2 in general was "The most evil act of the century", no country that was involved should think they were the "good guys".

When i think of germany now i think of beer, unfunny jokes and wonderous facial hair - in terms of their history i consider this a good thing. wartime Nazis - Modern Germans - two completly different peoples in my mind.

They shot at my Grandad

In the same way that we can no longer hold a grudge the modern German, Italian and Japanese responsible for the actions of the previous generations I also thinkt that the time is long overdue for us to start to rationalise the experiences of WWII as history and stop screaming about "two world wars and one world cup".

Wearing the sacrifice and suffering of another generation like a bagde of identity sickens me.

And I wish the Yanks would stop telling the whole of Europe that they saved us in WWII, if only because it was their grandparents' generation that fought and died.

Originally posted by Meaks
They shot at my Grandad

I guess they shot at my grandad too, but I'm fairly sure he shot back.

Trouble is so many of the stereotypes created by WWII are implanted into our minds, even my generation, in comedies, dramas, real life politics. It shouls be gotten rid of but its difficult.

Sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning about 'eternal penitance for Germany', how exactly are Germany paying penitance?

Originally posted by AndrewC
Trouble is so many of the stereotypes created by WWII are implanted into our minds, even my generation, in comedies, dramas, real life politics. It shouls be gotten rid of but its difficult.

Too true...it'll take time, but that doesn't mean it's not worth the effort.

Originally posted by nick2
I think WW2 in general was "The most evil act of the century", no country that was involved should think they were the "good guys".
Sorry Nick, you've lost me there, please explain.

For example, why was it worse than other occurances, like for example WW1 ?

Originally posted by nick2
I guess they shot at my grandad too, but I'm fairly sure he shot back.

lol, good point. I have a (unarmed) grenade that my grandad never got round to pitching towards the germans. Actually i don't know if my grandad fought on the frontline...

maybe he has the grenade from his rebellious days.

Originally posted by nick2
I think WW2 in general was "The most evil act of the century", no country that was involved should think they were the "good guys".

I disagree.

American writer Studs Terkel described WW2 as 'the last good war' - a war in which most people both in the field and at home knew what they were fighting for.

Whilst it failed as a war against totalitarianism (it only removed Hitler, and left Stalin in place) I can't view WW2 as a work of consumate evil.

The German people whouldn't be held permanently responsible for the Holocaust - eventually the last person with any involvement will die and that's that. In the same way, we shouldn't be hauled up every now and again for slavery and other Imperial excesses.

However, the fact that the Holocaust did happen SHOULD be remembered, and we should remember that it was all made to work by normal people who in other times and places would have been doing other jobs.

Bigotry, racism and intolerance are always with us - the people of the world need to keep an eye on these things to ensure that they don't get the chance to inspire such massive social movements again.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I disagree.

American writer Studs Terkel described WW2 as 'the last good war' - a war in which most people both in the field and at home knew what they were fighting for.

Whilst it failed as a war against totalitarianism (it only removed Hitler, and left Stalin in place) I can't view WW2 as a work of consumate evil.

The German people whouldn't be held permanently responsible for the Holocaust - eventually the last person with any involvement will die and that's that. In the same way, we shouldn't be hauled up every now and again for slavery and other Imperial excesses.

However, the fact that the Holocaust did happen SHOULD be remembered, and we should remember that it was all made to work by normal people who in other times and places would have been doing other jobs.

Bigotry, racism and intolerance are always with us - the people of the world need to keep an eye on these things to ensure that they don't get the chance to inspire such massive social movements again.

Joe

Well put.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Sorry Nick, you've lost me there, please explain.

For example, why was it worse than other occurances, like for example WW1 ?

I think it was worse than WW1 just because of the numbers killed, on all sides. And what I meant by "good guys" is the way we and the Americans make out we were the good guys as if we didn't kill anyone who wasn't a German soldier and we have never done anything bad in our past.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I disagree.

American writer Studs Terkel described WW2 as 'the last good war' - a war in which most people both in the field and at home knew what they were fighting for.

Whilst it failed as a war against totalitarianism (it only removed Hitler, and left Stalin in place) I can't view WW2 as a work of consumate evil.

The German people wouldn't be held permanently responsible for the Holocaust - eventually the last person with any involvement will die and that's that. In the same way, we shouldn't be hauled up every now and again for slavery and other Imperial excesses.

However, the fact that the Holocaust did happen SHOULD be remembered, and we should remember that it was all made to work by normal people who in other times and places would have been doing other jobs.

Bigotry, racism and intolerance are always with us - the people of the world need to keep an eye on these things to ensure that they don't get the chance to inspire such massive social movements again.

Joe

I agree, I don't think that it was a work of evil, but that there was evil brought out on all sides. I think that while the statement that no side should be thought of as the 'good guys' isn't quite true, I think that it should be considered that no side was devoid of evil.

I think the Britain wasn't completely free of shame after the war, Arthur Harris wouldn't exactly be in my list of war heroes (I'd probably go as far as to consider him evil after reading about his views on fellow human beings), but I don't think that should detract from the allied countries being proud of the part they played in fighting for 'good'.

That'll never change in the current climate...we're still hearing about coalition soldiers "murdered" and enemy "casualties" on the news today.

War will always be an evil...all you can hope is that it's the lesser evil when you have to fight...in the end it's all up to history to decide the morals as those holding the guns are usually too busy dodging the bullets.

Of course WWII was the most evil act of the century. IMO the reason is the holocaust and the wider perpertration of 'ethnic' cleansing.

Germany are not paying penitance for this and to suggest so is ludicrous. Germany now cannot be equated to Germany in the 1930's that allowed Hitler to come to power as such it is not accountable for what happened.

But of course we should remember what happened if only to pay our respects to the millions of innocents that died.

im going to the one at barnsley town hall. i dont know much about it, so i hope to be educated. looking forward to it

Originally posted by sanman
Of course WWII was the most evil act of the century. IMO the reason is the holocaust and the wider perpertration of 'ethnic' cleansing.

Ahh, but was that part of "the war", or part of "the reason for going to war".

Maybe that's why "the war" wasn't evil, because it stopped the ethnic cleansing.

If "the war" defeated this evil, how can it be classed as evil itself.

I think most of us would agree war is not a good thing, rather a necessity without a more peacful alternative.

Sanman,
My point is that I would like to see an end to the stigmatisation of Germany because of the atrocities of the Third Reich. Often Germans are seen as "fair game" to be pilloried and spoken about with hatred, because of the what was done 60 years ago in the name of Germany. Younger generations of Germans often feel that their country is to be ever tainted with the image of the Swastika, never to be forgiven.

I am not an apologist for the Third Reich, nor do I deny that the Holocaust happened [unlike some historical revisionists]. It is one of the most significant and monstrous events in recorded history. However, it is not the only one, and not the only one within living memory. I refer here to the less systematic, but equally vast in scope, atrocities of the Japanese Army [their actions part of the quaintly-named Co-Prosperity Sphere], and the millions murdered in the names of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

As to whether the Holocaust is uniquely evil, the industrialised, systematic manner of extermination together with the element of racial warfare against a specific ethnic/religious group are often offered as reasons why the epithet is so often applied. I do not think it is possible to judge mass murder in this fashion. It is pointless, crass and vulgar to try to get together some kind of League Table of atrocities. I see Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc through the same lens.

Eventually, as the wise JoeP seems to be suggesting, there will be no-one alive who was responsible for the atrocities. That will make a difference. However, I would like people to sometimes take time to think, especially in relation to Holocaust Remembrance Day, that to still see Germany as a country which "can't be trusted", which is innately militaristic and aggressive, is to perpetuate ideas of inherited racial guilt. Later generations of Germans are no more guilty of what was done in the 1940s, than young Britons are of Imperialism in Africa, India etc.

Can we sometimes remember too the good things German culture has given to the world ? Throughout history, all peoples have proved themselves capable of a descent into barbarism. How sad that elements of the descendants of the unfortunate victims of the Nazis, now bully the Palestinians. We need to acknowledge war crimes, but move forward without stigmatising whole countries.

Nosferatu is a cracking film for one.

Timo I really don't understand your reasoning that Germany is stigmatised & paying penitence, examples please.

Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, Wagner, Bruckner, Goethe, Schiller, Bayern Munich, Can, Kraftwerk, Lager and Worst aren't too bad, either.

I don't blame modern germany for the mistakes of the past either. It could have happened in any country . The social and political climate had risen to an extent where such an opressive and biggoted government could arise and the things that happened could happen..Germany was in a depression, the people needed someone to blame..

Lots of psychologists have conducted studies into whether anybody could do as the nazis did, and follow the terrible orders that the german public followed. Milgram developed the "Germans Are Different Hypothesis" and later found out that most ordinary citizens could act like the Germans did.

I think that modern Germany should be free of the stereotypes it's been given due to the war. Aren't there still some sanctions on Germany as a consequence of the war???

I don't think we should forget what happened though, and everyone should be educated about WW2 and the Holocaust....otherwise it will happen again, and with all the neo-facists that seem to be popping out of the woodwork..it really should be in all of our minds.

Again Lboogie, I'm in agreement with you. Just because we remember the past doesn't mean we are stigmatising modern germany or expecting them to pay penitence.

what generation is it that you believe hold these stereotypical views. Mine don't, the war to me (whilst I know it intellectually was real) is too far removed to be too emotional about it. We can learn from the lessons it presents, but I wasn't involved and my parents weren't even born, and likewise for all the Germans i've ever met.

My grandparents might have carried some stereotypical image, but then they lived through the blitz, but even they would realise that most unless they are meeting Germans of the same age then they weren't involved.

PS - i've met quite a few Germans, I worked in Germany for 6 months. Funnily enough I was watching the boxset of a 10 episode mini series of some paratroopers dropped in the invasion of europe (the name of which escapes me) whilst I was there.


Originally posted by timo
Sanman,
My point is that I would like to see an end to the stigmatisation of Germany because of the atrocities of the Third Reich. Often Germans are seen as "fair game" to be pilloried and spoken about with hatred, because of the what was done 60 years ago in the name of Germany. Younger generations of Germans often feel that their country is to be ever tainted with the image of the Swastika, never to be forgiven.

I am not an apologist for the Third Reich, nor do I deny that the Holocaust happened [unlike some historical revisionists]. It is one of the most significant and monstrous events in recorded history. However, it is not the only one, and not the only one within living memory. I refer here to the less systematic, but equally vast in scope, atrocities of the Japanese Army [their actions part of the quaintly-named Co-Prosperity Sphere], and the millions murdered in the names of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

As to whether the Holocaust is uniquely evil, the industrialised, systematic manner of extermination together with the element of racial warfare against a specific ethnic/religious group are often offered as reasons why the epithet is so often applied. I do not think it is possible to judge mass murder in this fashion. It is pointless, crass and vulgar to try to get together some kind of League Table of atrocities. I see Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc through the same lens.

Eventually, as the wise JoeP seems to be suggesting, there will be no-one alive who was responsible for the atrocities. That will make a difference. However, I would like people to sometimes take time to think, especially in relation to Holocaust Remembrance Day, that to still see Germany as a country which "can't be trusted", which is innately militaristic and aggressive, is to perpetuate ideas of inherited racial guilt. Later generations of Germans are no more guilty of what was done in the 1940s, than young Britons are of Imperialism in Africa, India etc.

Can we sometimes remember too the good things German culture has given to the world ? Throughout history, all peoples have proved themselves capable of a descent into barbarism. How sad that elements of the descendants of the unfortunate victims of the Nazis, now bully the Palestinians. We need to acknowledge war crimes, but move forward without stigmatising whole countries.

Sanman,
You cannot possibly have failed to notice the plethora of negative stereotypes of German people in the British media, or can you? I am possibly the LEAST politically correct poster on the forum, so don't get the wrong idea about me. I am not looking for negative, anti-German feelings in a state of permanent indignation. However, from the Victor comics of my youth [all Germans portrayed as square-headed sadists, referring to "Englander pig-dogs" in harsh, gutteral accents etc], to the anti-German comments in the tabloids of today, especially around the issues pertaining to the EU or international football, I have seen millions of unfortunate images of Germany portrayed. Anti-German sentiment still runs high, especially in those of the war generation. As I said before, the idea that Nazism or something like it, could ONLY have happened in Germany is perpetuated. I mean here, the idea that Germany "can't be trusted", "wants to take over re a Federal Europe", and is an intrinsically aggressive, potentially dangerous country.

I speak as an Englishman here, with no German relatives or ancestry [aside from ancient Anglo Saxon dna!], so I am not biased. I have simply observed an anti-German trend in some aspects of British culture. This is largely due to the two World Wars of the 20th century, and in particular, the Holocaust. I find it tiresome.

While Germany committed the worst crimes against humanity that history has ever recorded, a huge amount of Germans died while retreating across the ice fields that the Russians gladly bombed, not much is said about this probably because everyone beleive the Germans got what they deserved , but it was not just military forces that fleed Germany there were familys with children there to.

I dont defend Germany but it is not the Germans of today that committed these crimes although some still live they havent got long left and with them all blame on todays Germans will pass in to the history, or should.

The person who thought of these evil things was not even German he was Austrian but nobody blames the Austrians do they.

Todays Germans should not have to dwell in the past , lord knows the germans have paid plenty for the mistake of following a mad man.

Timo get real, it's hardly surprising that in people who lived through the war that anti-german sentment may run high although to be honest I've never experienced it.

To say that Germany is stigmatised just because of the war stories in the comics of your youth and the odd newspaper headline is ludicrous. What's more important is how people feel, I have not read one post in this thread that says todays Germany should be held responsible for the atrocities in the War.

the minimum age of someone that can remember the war at all must be 65. For someone to have properly experienced it (ie understood what was actually going on) you're looking at 70+, does it really matter if these people harbour anti-german sentiment until they die? If they still do (which I don't think they all do) then it's too late to demand that they change.
As to the football, that's a different issue entirely.

Originally posted by timo
Sanman,
You cannot possibly have failed to notice the plethora of negative stereotypes of German people in the British media, or can you? I am possibly the LEAST politically correct poster on the forum, so don't get the wrong idea about me. I am not looking for negative, anti-German feelings in a state of permanent indignation. However, from the Victor comics of my youth [all Germans portrayed as square-headed sadists, referring to "Englander pig-dogs" in harsh, gutteral accents etc], to the anti-German comments in the tabloids of today, especially around the issues pertaining to the EU or international football, I have seen millions of unfortunate images of Germany portrayed. Anti-German sentiment still runs high, especially in those of the war generation. As I said before, the idea that Nazism or something like it, could ONLY have happened in Germany is perpetuated. I mean here, the idea that Germany "can't be trusted", "wants to take over re a Federal Europe", and is an intrinsically aggressive, potentially dangerous country.

I speak as an Englishman here, with no German relatives or ancestry [aside from ancient Anglo Saxon dna!], so I am not biased. I have simply observed an anti-German trend in some aspects of British culture. This is largely due to the two World Wars of the 20th century, and in particular, the Holocaust. I find it tiresome.

Originally posted by Cyclone
what generation is it that you believe hold these stereotypical views. Mine don't, the war to me (whilst I know it intellectually was real) is too far removed to be too emotional about it. We can learn from the lessons it presents, but I wasn't involved and my parents weren't even born, and likewise for all the Germans i've ever met.


I was born in 1961, if that helps.

That's 16 years after the end of WW2.

I don't believe I hold any stereotypical views of people in the war - just that historically certain things happened that were bad no matter how you look at it - the 'rape of Nanking', the Holocaust, the Dresden Firestorm, Hiroshima, etc.

Whilst it might be possible to argue the pros and cons of Hiroshima and to a lesser degree Dresden, I cannot conceivably think of anyway in which one can justify the Holocaust or Nanking. they're acts of inhumanity that need to be recalled to avoid us going the same way again.

Whilst I wouldn't say I get emotional about it, I do get concerned about how easily we tend to forget history. The Twentieth Century has often been described as the 'Totalitatarian century' - starting with Imperialism, Communism, Fascism and ending up with the Two Block system of the Cold War. The problem with the isms is that they tend to allow us to too easily forget that the pilot dropping the bomb, the guard pushing the prisoner in to a gas chamber, the soldier bayonetting the civillian were all 'normal' according to the culture they found themselves in.

The blind faith in ideology that totalitarianism engendered is the true thing to be concerned about today - because it still exists.

Joe

Jonsastar,
You say Germans [meaning the German army of WW2] committed the "worst crimes that history has recorded". I am not sure about this. The crimes make the senses reel, but are they "worse" than the mass murders committed by their Japanese allies? As I said previously, the German atrocities had a specifically racial element to them [if we refer to the Holocaust], and were more systematic than those of their Japanese allies. However, the Japanese Co Prosperity Sphere engaged in the most appalling savagery, including mass murder, forced prostitution, live vivisection, cannibalism, the infamous "Rape of Nanking", starvation and torture of POWs etc. How can we judge between them? Surely both are examples of atrocity on a truly epic scale?

Additionally, whilst not wishing to minimise the Holocaust, if we look back through history, we encounter many other examples of huge scale mass murder, i.e, the Assyrians, the Mongols etc. The Holocaust may not be the "detail of history", suggested recently by Jean -Marie Le Pen, but it is also not the ONLY shudderingly awful case of genocide in history.

Timo

Correct the japanese committed many crimes, and there have been many historical wars with terrible tortures to man, but as you also say there isnt as much available information on these subjects, most of the war history in England is about the atrocitys to man perfomed by German and German Military allies.

Also we in Europe have many survivors from the atrocitys performed on behalf of Hitler and his allies, so much that you can read book after book of German atrocitys to English Russian Jewish Gay Disabled Mentily ill, and any thing else the furor took a dislike to many of which did not help in a military way but were done purely out of hate.

I also have my grandfathers storys to judge by, but this doesnt mean that todays Germans should still pay for what Hitler and his allies did.

I have read a few books about what the Japanese did to POWs and these things were atrocious to but there are not so many books on what the Japs did as there crimes did not directly affect as many English as the Germans crimes.

It shouldn't be a case of ' which was worse' , it was all wrong. We shouldn't overlook any terrible events, no matter who they were done by.

We shouldn't forget them, but neither should we hold grudges and judge.

I concur. :thumbsup:

Maybe any anti-German feeling in this country is down to something that is not directly to do with Nazi atrocities---but--connected to them.
Gemans have always had a reputation for blindly obeying rules , willy-nilly.This , of course , made it easier for the Nazis to do what they did ," You must always do what the authorities say ".
This obedient streak also enabled the Germans to quickly recover after the 2nd. World War.
Perhaps a lot of people in Britain scorn this "roll over" attitude as they can see what it can lead to. The rest are probably envious because ,they too, would like Britain to have a robot Society.
We used to value freedom in this country but I think more and more people would not only do ANYTHING that the Government ordered but even beg for even more rules and regs.
They must have a masochistic streak or they're like little children who must have someone to tell them what to do ; with the added bonus of course that in a strictly heirarchial Society ,you can also tell someone else what to do !

What concerns me most is that most people won't let the war drop. You only need an England - Germany football match and the tabloids bring out the 'hans up fritz, it's all over' business. If that's not racist I don't know what is.

If winning a war 50 years ago is the only thing we have to be proud of, we're not so Great Britain any more.

One of my Auntys is half German, and in her case you definatley should not mention the war, she will defend herself as agood person and her Mother who is German, I once got an ear bashing for mentioning what fritz did to my Grandad when he was a POW.

No winning that arguement.

The last few posts echo my points, to an extent. One of the points I was trying to make is the pointlessness of "worst ever atrocities" discussions, and the fact that the Holocaust is one of several cases in human history.

The post which refers to the stereotype of German blind obediance to authority is an example of the negative stereotyping of Germans within British culture. The image of cold, heartless efficiency is a popular one, and has been applied to many things German; from the international football team, through the automobile industry to the Third Reich. Sanman instructed me to "get real". With respect, Sanman, I think you have not been looking hard enough. No offence intended.

I used to know a Big chubby old fashioned stubbon clumsy racist and dim bloke from stocksbridge. He wouldn't get into a Japanese car if it was the last car on earth which could save his life. He said he could not forgive the Japanease for what they did in the war, they were far more cruel than the Germans and he would be happy to get into a German car. This was only about 10 years ago.
The only point he succeded in making was that he was a fool.

Originally posted by sheffexpat
Maybe any anti-German feeling in this country is down to something that is not directly to do with Nazi atrocities---but--connected to them.
Gemans have always had a reputation for blindly obeying rules , willy-nilly.This , of course , made it easier for the Nazis to do what they did ," You must always do what the authorities say ".
This obedient streak also enabled the Germans to quickly recover after the 2nd. World War.
Perhaps a lot of people in Britain scorn this "roll over" attitude as they can see what it can lead to. The rest are probably

I sympathise with your point sheffexpat.
We deal with lots of German companies at work where they order stuff from us all the time.
Their manner is very upfront and aparrently discourteous, they issue commands and expect us to send expensive stuff to them before they decide that they will pay. They [90% of Germans] refuse point blank to use credit cards and insist on using funds transfer, which takes days instead of seconds. And they send us pages and pages of rules which they expect us to agree to before they will pay. We always refuse and they always back down to these rules, which are often impossible and irrelivent to the transaction, because they are drawn up for a different purpose.
It is a different culture and makes it hard to get on, but we manage and are glad of their business.

And just to balance the point, we also deal with lots of American companies, and regularly have to deal with people over there who are just so plain stupid it is hard to keep a straight face when you are talking to them. Lord knows how they have got a job in sales?

Muddycoffee,
Well, maybe the man was a fool. Arguably we all make fools of ourselves at some time [sex makes fools of us all]. He was perpetuating the idea of inherited racial guilt, which I referred to earlier. I can understand a victim of Japanese, German or any torture feeling bitter. Were I myself a victim, I would find it terribly hard to forgive, and to separate emotion from intellect in my judgements. I would probably be unable to bear a grudge.

You raise an interesting point, indirectly. There is a popular view that the Japanese "were crueller" than the Germans. I have heard this from veterans of WW2, many times. Again, how do we measure cruelty? Perhaps because the Japanese are non-Caucasoids, their cruelty to POWs is seen as worse. Perhaps it is easier to dehumanise and demonise people of another racial stock? Personally, I see little between the fiendishness of the Gestapo and that of the Kempei Tei. Both are worse than any conceivable horror film.

You can't judge what the entire German population acts like based on the few Germans you've encountered..

Country stereotypes are pointless and old fashioned. People are people. I hate how some British people seem to think they are better than anyone else from any other country, it's just stupid and childish.

I think it serves as a reminder of what people can do to each other and the levels of evil that we can reach.
I don't really think it has got that much to do with Germany any more, it's more about humanity and how we should stand and fight against it happening again.
The same as VE Day, DD Day and November 11th. It is not about how we beat Germany in the war, it is about how we stood up to fascism and defeated it and how we should never ever forget what happened or let it happen again.

That's true, but we've forgotten about other facist regimes, and we sat idly while so many people were killed in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.

We should remember it all, and not let it happen anywhere...

It's sickening that our government can ignore genocide aslong as it's not in Europe...

Originally posted by LBoogie
You can't judge what the entire German population acts like based on the few Germans you've encountered..

Country stereotypes are pointless and old fashioned. People are people.

Well said! That's exactly right.

People are people, the world over. There are cultural differences, of course. What may be considered bad manners in one culture, is OK in another.

By stating that all persons from a certain country are rude and stupid, you've just betrayed your own stupidity and lack of manners!

Here in California we get alot of tourists. Wanna know which ones are the most badly behaved? Heh heh. Sure you do! :heyhey:

The absolute rudest tourist I've ever encountered was a German woman who literally shoved me out of the way to get a better place in line at a restaurant. Do I now believe that ALL German people are as rude as this woman was? Of course not!!

My vote for best behaved tourists? Japanese and British.
In fact, after this German lady (and I use the term generously, lol) pushed me out of line, there were a group of British tourists nearby who noticed what she did, and invited my husband, his sister, and I to sit with them. Which we did, and we ended up having a wonderful conversation with them over dinner. They were lovely people.

And as an American, I don't happen to agree with everything George W. Bush does, and I'm not personally responsible for the guy, either. lol

I'ts unfair, untrue, and usually a mistake to say that ALL people from a certain country are.....a certain way. We are all individuals, after all.



:) Sierra

Some good and fair points there, Sierra, expressed in your without fear or favour style.

My earlier comments about some german customers which I left in an earlier quote, are not a critisism, they are just observations about the differences between our cultures.

It's easy for english speaking people to complain about how rude other people are, because our language is full of flowery terms like "would you mind", "excuse me please" and speaking as a student of modern languages, I can confirm that politeness is implied without actual words in other languages.
So often "Can you?" is the same as "Will you please"in English

I think we've got a bit off topic here.

The question is not "was what the Nazis did a very bad thing?"

Because obviously it was (although of course a lot of other evils were comitted in both world wars and numerous other conflicts before and since)

But should Germans today be held in any way responsible for the events of the 1930s and 1940s, or should they be forever feel like they have some sort of inherited shame?

In my opinion, not in any way.

Originally posted by Yodameister
should Germans today be held in any way responsible for the events of the 1930s and 1940s, or should they be forever feel like they have some sort of inherited shame?

In my opinion, not in any way.

Obviously the main problem is with media who can't visit anything German without talking about Hitler and Nazis. Germany is a massive and diverse country, just get a map of europe. I am hoping to visit Bavaria this year so will be happy to add to this thread after I have a little experience there.

Exactly, Yodameister. However, this sense of inherited ethnic guilt and shame is perhaps reinforced by what some see as an obsession with the Second World War in British culture. I am not sure where I stand re this. I reflect that the war ended only 15 years before my birth in 1961, so in historical terms it is yesterday. To younger people , perhaps those in their teens and twenties, the war may seem as far away as the Victorian era does to me. I am aware how many veterans and victims are still alive, and I will always honour Remembrance Sunday. I am aware of the importance of WW2 in terms of recent history and human suffering, but I can also understand those who complain that hardly a week goes by without some television or radio programme on the subject. Additionally, I can understand the teachers and pupils who sometimes feel there is an overemphasis on the topic [particularly on Hitler] in the syllabus of History as taught in schools.

This is a very controversial and emotive thread. I started it, and it is my responsibility to reassure fellow contributors that I mean no disrespect to veterans of the war. I am, of course, aware that I enjoy the freedom to sit at a computer screen and pose questions like this because of the sacrifices they made in WW2.

i am in my 20's, i really don't see this issue at all. As far as i my experience leads me to believe you're talking about a non existant problem.

And as to this over focus on hitler and the 2nd world war, when i did history (15 years ago, sheesh) we didn't cover the 2nd world war at all. Not exactly an over emphasis.

Thanks Timo,

still love ya! MMWWAAAHHH!

Muddycoffee, I see your point, I understand, and I agree with your observations that politeness can be implied without actual words. A simple 'excuse me' (and I never found out if tourist lady spoke english or not because she didn't say anything) or a nod and a smile, or hell, even a gesture! Would've got her alot further than pushing me aside to get to the front of the line.

Unless that sort of thing is OK in Germany? I don't know. Probably not. It didn't matter. The nice English people made up for it. And we had a good time. We introduced everyone. We ate. And laughed. And talked. And we pointed out rude tourist lady to other diners. And told them what she did. And they laughed. And tourist lady must've been rude to the waiter as well, because he gave them an awful table. And they ate their dinner and left, while we were still laughing and talking and having a good time. :P

I'm convinced some people just shouldn't leave home.

Should Germans today be held accountable for atrocities commited in WWII? IMHO, no. I don't think people should forget, ever. But the time for laying blame has passed.

Cyclone, you didn't cover WWII at all? Are you sure? Perhaps you were absent that day? lol

:) Sierra

pretty sure, we covered a bit of world war i, and lots of much older boring european stuff. I wasn't very interested in History, didn't take it at GCSE level. Maybe if they'd covered the 2nd world war I might have been interested and taken it, or the Falklands war or something less than 200 years in the past.

Hi Sierra,
cripes you must be up late..

from what I understand in Germany they don't stand in queues, they just push to the front, it's what they do. Whereas Russians are used to queueing for hours and hours.

I am not that widely travelled but have been to Holland, Belgium Spain, Greece, France, Portugal, Canary islands, and all those nations I have found to be patient and courteous. I have met and spoke to Germans while I have been away especially in Mallorca, where they do the towel thing, but they are nice people, I was more embarrased by Brits of all ages complaining about food etc..

It's my observation that the individual British people who complain about foreigners are intolerant individuals themselves. On a number of occasions I have taught moody Brits in some sunny Resort how to order drinks etc.. in the local language, and seen a transformation in their attitude to their foreign hosts, all of a sudden they become very friendly and open and very fond of their new european friends. This is obviously an education problem, that is inherent in the English society. But it's funny that you find out things which you would like to have been taught after you have left formal education.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I wasn't very interested in History, didn't take it at GCSE level. Maybe if they'd covered the 2nd world war I might have been interested

I left school at 15 in the mid 1980s after completing my O levels. And throughout my whole school career we never did anything about WWI or WWII.

In history I must have covered Tudors and Stewarts 10 times, a small project about the Sheffield Flood, bronze age a few times etc.. In eurpoean studies we used to learn the map and capitals but nothing much else.

Hi Muddycoffee,

Yes, I am up late.

Or rather I was asleep earlier, and was woken by a sick child. He's fallen back to sleep, finally! And I'll follow in a few minutes. It's about 3:30 am here.

They just push to the front of the line in Germany? That certainly explains alot! lol

Cultural differences, I guess. This woman should have guessed (from the looks she was getting) that pushing wasn't the acceptable thing to do. When in Rome...

Now that I think of it, you may be right. She glared at me like I was the one with the problem!

Anyway, thanks for the input.

:) Sierra

i've never seen anyone push to the front whilst i was in germany. They didn't queue as such, more of a bundle, but most people got served in turn and everyone was polite and defered to people who were there first.

How on earth would it work if everyone just pushed to the front, it'd be a rugby scrum and the biggest would get served.

Cyclone, there is a big emphasis upon WW2 at both GCSE and A level standard. Perhaps I should have made that clear. I work in Higher Ed now [Sociology/ Psychology], but when I worked briefly in Further Ed, I became used to hearing the gripes of History colleagues to the ends that there was an overemphasis upon WW2, and the Third Reich in particular, at both GCSE and, especially, A level.

I recall a former colleague saying that it was all well and good that pupils/students knew about the Third Reich in some depth, but that there were gaping holes in their basic knowledge about British history. For example, the WW2 material was not balanced with studies of medieval Britain. Few, if any, pupils/students had a working knowledge of the "tribes" [Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc] that have contributed to the cultural and genetic identity of the majority of the population. History does not begin in 1939.

Originally posted by Cyclone
i've never seen anyone push to the front whilst i was in germany. They didn't queue as such, more of a bundle, but most people got served in turn and everyone was polite and defered to people who were there first.

How on earth would it work if everyone just pushed to the front, it'd be a rugby scrum and the biggest would get served.


Well If you've ever been to the walkabout bar in town then you would see that it is often the prettiest who gets served first.

But I defer to your Superior experience cyclone about how they actually behave in germany.

Do you know if there is a difference between the different regions, as I've heard tell how there are many differences between the Bavarians and the north germans.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Well If you've ever been to the walkabout bar in town then you would see that it is often the prettiest who gets served first.

But I defer to your Superior experience cyclone about how they actually behave in germany.

Do you know if there is a difference between the different regions, as I've heard tell how there are many differences between the Bavarians and the north germans.
could well be, i only spent time in russlesheim nr Frankfurt. Not even sure what part of Germany it's in.

I'm basing my queuing experience on the local bakery at lunchtime and a few trips to the nearest small supermarket.

I think you could say that many Bavarians would call themselves Bavarians first rather than German, just as some folk around here might be Yorkshiremen first and British second. There was even idle talk of claiming independence for Bavaria when I lived there and you don't tend to find this attitude in the other areas. But there is still more of an east/west divide than north/south for obvious reasons.

But back on topic, at the concentration camp in Dachau, there is a harrowing "exhibition" of what went on there followed by the words: "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it" or something like that. I watched Schindlers List in Germany, with Germans and found that they were able to detatch themselves from the then and them as Germany today bears few resemblences to Hitler's and is a country I think they deserve to be proud of as we may feel proud of Britain.

Just my two pennies' worth.

Lottiewat

I think this has become a little off topic now, but I'll give my twopenneth anyway.

I have lived in Germany for twelve years and think I have a good insight into both cultures.

The general British view of Germany is negative, there's no getting around that. I have numerous German friends whose tyres have been slashed in the UK or have been abused in pubs, however, this always happens around football match time when the Sun is agitating...
Studies have shown that British kids have a very bad image of Germany, naming Bosnia as a more preferable holiday location. The war is the most popular history topic at GCSE.

However, not all Germans have a good impression of the Brits. They still have a picture of unemployed, downtrodden people in strike (in the 1970s). But on the whole, they don't hear much about the UK.

The Germans are, as MuddyCoffee says, a different sort of people. Once you're friends with them they'll do anything for you, but they are not good at simple things which we Brits consider polite. My boss says to me "That's crap" whereas a Brit would say "it's interesting, look at this section again though". People don't queue and don't say please or thankyou, but it's considering to be sucking up and superficial if you are what they consider to be overpolite.

Should there be eternal penitence for Germany? Of course not, it's old hat now. Let's get on with the future.

fhain29 very well said.

It's a real shame that the nations of Uk and Germany don't know more about each other. I think that there is much more in common than most people ever could know. And I am looking forward to my break over there [all being well] in a couple of months.

Many thanks to FHain for the interesting posting. I note that some contributors appear to agree with me to the ends that negative stereotypes of Germany still abound in British culture, whilst some, like Cyclone, tend to be almost incredulous at the very idea. Maybe the variable of age plays a part here. At 43, I have grown up with a strong sense that great numbers of Britons appear to dislike and mistrust the German people, and that these feelings can be traced, in the main, to the behaviour of the Nazis.

Perhaps we have come to the end of the discussion here? Personally, I have nothing more to add, save to thank fellow contributors, and to make one last observation. The consensus does appear to be that the idea of eternal penitence for Germany is quite wrong, and perpetuates the spurious idea of inherited racial guilt. I originally posed the question because I have heard people [from veterans of WW2 to 19 year old undergraduates] express the view that Germany can never be forgiven many, many times. The people who ARE guilty are the ones who committed the war crimes, and nobody else. To label a country as "guilty" is to engage in reification; countries are not social actors, only human beings have the agency, or "free will" to descend into barbarism.

I don't think that the Germans have an 'eternal penitance', but the nation has matured to realise the grave wrongs of their forefathers and are trying to put that right.

If anything ther are attempting to live up to the greatness that was taken away by themselves up to 1945 - to show the rest of us that it can be better.

Maybe not 'penitance', but perhaps penitence is what you had in mind?

Mojo,
I realised the typing error after posing the question. Don't you find it reassuring that a being of my lofty ability can, very occasionally, make an error?

Originally posted by timo
Mojo,
I realised the typing error after posing the question. Don't you find it reassuring that a being of my lofty ability can, very occasionally, make an error?

Sorry timo, I simply couldn't resist it :D

go and visit a concentration camp and see just how nice the krauts were half of you lot dont know what the hell you are talking about forgive them NEVER

Originally posted by tattoo
go and visit a concentration camp and see just how nice the krauts were half of you lot dont know what the hell you are talking about forgive them NEVER

Tattoo, I take it you are British, and probably English. So you as such should never be forgiven by the Irish for deliberately leaving millions to starve to death in the potato famine, should never be forgiven by Indians for looting their country and enslaving their peoples, never forgiven by South Africans for testing the first concentration camps on them, never forgiven by Dresden for systematically destroying a city filled with refugees and causing the death of tens thousands of people in a wanton orgy of sadism. The list is endless. The answer is no, it's ridiculous to blame and me and every other Briton for what was done is our names generations ago. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Yes, the crimes of the Nazis were horrific. But the people who live now have more than atoned for their grandfathers' crimes, and have to live with the shame and distress for ever.

I take in when you were in Germany, or which concentration camp did you go to, you never once stopped to see the country around you and reflect on how much it has achieved since the end of the war to mend the rights of the past?

Originally posted by tattoo
go and visit a concentration camp and see just how nice the krauts were half of you lot dont know what the hell you are talking about forgive them NEVER

troll.

And me? I'll never ever forgive the Romans for what they did, nor the Saxons (woops! I am one), nor the Vikings who plundered, pillaged and raped my great great (ad infinitum) granny, nor those murdering Normans. And what about those pesky Spaniards who sank my great great great etc Uncle in the Channel? Damn them all. And then there's all those German kiddies who are now adults. Surely they knew what was happening. It's their fault as well:o

:loopy:

I'm with you there, Markham. Actually, I ought to face eternal penitence for my part in the atrocities committed by the elite 61st Division of [Lower] Wincobank Cub Scouts. We were a paramilitary Totenkopfverbande amongst Cub Scouts in the 70s. To the shrill cry of Nordic Lur horns, we would persecute Shiregreen Boys' Brigade, and occasionally Brightside Brownies [the feared Sprites Division]. Veterans of these rival units will never forgive us. The things we could do with a hot "woggle" do not bear thinking about.

Yes, I read about it all at the Blackburn Meadows Trials.

Wasn't one of your Pack Fuhrers-Knot Badge Holder Fritz-known for his over-enthusiastic use of 'Gingangooly' to extract the truth (and a free copy) from paperboys.

this has probably ran its course but just to say I visited germany twice last year, hamburg and frankfurt. I found the germans I met to be charming people. They were polite to the point of switching from their mother tongue to english in our company (and they were strangers at the hotel bar).
I just could not associate these people as "the enemy" and plan to go back there for a holiday at some point.

Now, what they should be in a state of eternal penitance for giving David Hasslehoff a couple of no. 1 albums!

Someone made a comment about the inhumanity of Bomber Harris and his indiscriminate bombing of German cities. Harris said in defence that "They sowed the wind, and reaped the whirlwind" Anyone who survived the Sheffield blitzes of 12th and 15th December 1940 as I did will tend to agree with his statement. Over 1000 of our fellow townspeople, all innocent, were lost to indiscriminate German bombing.

Buck, what's your point? That just because your generation lived through the bombing of Sheffield that it must be "eternal penitence" for the Germans? Was the annihilation of Dresden and many many other German cities justified as a result? Even Churchill admitted that Bomber Harris had overstepped the boundary of acceptable behaviour.

Germany at the time was a vicious dictatorship, such brutish behaviour is thus expected. The UK was already a liberal democracy. When is tat-for tat behaviour acceptable? The answer is easy: For democracies that live by the rule of law, never!

good point fhain29.