This week all bar one of the British teams won their Champions League matches, several of them with cracking results - especially Arsenal, Chelsea, Celtic and Rangers, whilst Manchester United got a hard-fought but hardly unexpected victory - but there had to be an exception to what could have been a clean sweep - at Anfield of all places where Benitez's rotation policy chickens came home to roost against Marseille in one of their most abject performances since the bad old days of shock FA Cup exits at the hands of giant killers like Bristol City under Souness in the 1990s. And this isn't just one bad performance. In recent matches, they have been lacklustre against Portsmouth, held to a draw by Birmingham, were lucky to escape a beating at Porto, and were dreadful against Wigan, who could and perhaps should have beaten them. Liverpool won't win the League. They won't win the European Champions Cup. They'll be left empty handed at the end of this season. So should Benitez go?

I vote no.

I want him to stay.

So should Benitez go?

Have a word with yourself mate, the football season is a long one.

I vote no.

I want him to stay.

Yes and you would say that wouldn't you mate being a United fan. Anybody looking at it from Liverpool perspective must see they need someone to come in who's going to settle on his best side and play them all together when fit. This is the sort of thing Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal have being doing for all the years Benitez has been at Liverpool and on the whole it has worked out better for them.

Manchester United are in second place or thereabouts and they've still to catch fire. And they rarely slip up against the sort of teams that Liverpool have a habit of slipping up against.

And as for Liverpool, Marseille are currently 16th in the French First Division, having won only one of their 9 league matches, and have already fired one manager this season.

I was at Anfield last night and it was a poor performance, but bad results happen. It was embarrassing to be outplayed at Anfield like that, but I still trust Rafa. In the last three seasons we've reached two Champions League finals, much better than any other British team. We're still going through and we'll still have a decent Champions League run this season.

I vote no.

I want him to stay.
__________________
Liverpool 07/08 - No trophies. Mark my words.

Agreed. I don't think Liverpool will win a trophy this season, nor do I think they will break into the top two in the league.

The halo has definitely slipped, but he's earned a year to screw up - maybe when he thinks his job is at stake he'll stop ******* about

The question is: Who would replace him?

His record in Europe is excellent but I don't think they're in with a shout of winning the Premier League - Arsenal appear to be streets ahead and Manchester United will be there or thereabouts.

Sadly - and this is the hard part for Liverpool fans to admit - despite spending a crazy £40 million, Liverpool are not up there with the likes of Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal. Like Everton, their glory days are behind them and they don't have the right to believe they should win the league. A top six finish is a good season for Liverpool and fans of other clubs outside the top flight (and indeed top 6) look at the likes of Liverpool with envy. BUT - despite what I've said, I think they're only a couple players short of being able to win the league. It won't happen this season but they could well win a domestic cup.

Sacking a manager of Benitez's calibre smacks of desperation. The players collectively had on off day mid-week (I fell asleep) but in general they've got a strong squad and some seriously great players.

Benitez or no Benitez, they're simply not quite up to the mark of the Arsenals and Manchester Uniteds but Mr Average Football Fan can only dream of having a team that constantly qualifies for Europe and always progresses in the domestic cups.

As Simon Cowell would say: 'Okay, reality check'.

The players that Benitez has picked should be capable of beating the likes of Marsielle but they did not perform on the night and to be quite honest have been playing badly for about 3 weeks. This is a stronger Liverpool team than for many seasons and every team has a dodgy period during the season , hopefully this is ours. To suggest that Rafa should be sacked is a load of B*******, and as long as we improve our consistency this term I will be happy.

I actually think Rafa will walk away before he is sacked.

To me he doesn't look happy. He has took on the work load of his departed assistant manager so is coaching, planning tactics, sorting the fitness side of things and picking and preparing a team for each and every game, it's too much.

Also, he is constantly being badgered (his fault or not) about the rotation policy he employs, despite great success at both Liverpool and Valencia. It could just be taking it's toll! Everything Rafa does and every team he selects is now bieng scrutinised by fans and the media alike and I think he may well be losing the motivation and enthusiasm he had in previous season's. Rafa is a great manager, but just lately his decisions and apparent stubburness has become baffling and i think next season we could see him walk out of Anfield and resume his work in Spain!!!

Liverpool won't sack Rafael Benitez! He will walk!!

This is a stronger Liverpool team than for many seasons and every team has a dodgy period during the season , hopefully this is ours. To suggest that Rafa should be sacked is a load of B*******, and as long as we improve our consistency this term I will be happy.

Agreed 100%


Liverpool won't sack Rafael Benitez! He will walk!!

You have to be kidding right ?

I think the Mad in your name has a place, I would reconsider the LFC bit though, you do write some tosh about the team you purport to to support.

:huh:

You have to be kidding right ?
Wrong!
It's simple really!! I think neither Gillette nor Hicks nor Parry would ever contemplate sacking Rafa (as this thread suggested) and that Rafa would walk first before he was sacked.

I think the Mad in your name has a place, I would reconsider the LFC bit though, you do write some tosh about the team you purport to to support.
Why's that then? Because i think that Rafa could get sick of all the criticism he recieves on a daily basis? Or that the owners or Parry wouldn't consider sacking Rafa?
Please answer those questions because i fail to understand why you think my comments are 'tosh' or that my comments make it seem that i am not a great supporter of Liverpool FC?

I think Rafa is a great manager although some of his selections are debatable! He has improved our squad and won us our 5th European Cup. Rafa will not be sacked!!! He could walk away if the criticism and scrutiny continues!!!!
How do them comments make you think that i talk 'tosh' or that i'm not a true supporter?

Speaking of talking 'tosh';

you do write some tosh about the team you purport to to support.

Your post wasn't exactly the easiest to understand. Maybe you had one too many yeah?

As a Utd fan, I m happy to see him stay there for a while yet. The Benitez myth is so widely held by the media yet for all the money he has spent,Liverpool's results are terrible. 40M is deffinitely an underestimate of the amount he has spent! Unless that is just this season!

As a Utd fan, I m happy to see him stay there for a while yet. The Benitez myth is so widely held by the media yet for all the money he has spent,Liverpool's results are terrible.

Number of Champions' League finals reached by Ferguson in a 20-odd year term at Old Trafford?

Number of Champions' League finals reached by Ferguson in a 20-odd year term at Old Trafford?
Heyesey, I couldn't have put it any better myself!

But wait for the "yeah but how many League titles?"

I would say to that......

"Yeah but how many years in charge?"

I just think that Rafa is in it for the long run Paul.

The idea of him not being at the club just isn't thinkable for me.

Selection and rotation, he is trying to work his ideas.

Blow the media, you think he did not know what he was getting himself into ?

I was hoping this season we would hold a trophy and still can obviously.

Next season, when people have settled I will expect more.

I just think that Rafa is in it for the long run Paul

The idea of him not being at the club just isn't thinkable for me.

Selection and rotation, he is trying to work his ideas.

Blow the media, you think he did not know what he was getting himself into ?

I was hoping this season we would hold a trophy and still can obviously.

Next season, when people have settled I will expect more.
Venger, i agree with your points and i too hope Rafa stays and gets it right! I just couldn't understand why you said i posted tosh and that i'm not a real supporter of Liverpool because i said Rafa would walk out before he was sacked? I can't see Rafa getting sacked full stop, like you say, he is a world class manager. However, a more likely scenario would be that he gets fed up and walks (not saying he will, just that it is more likely than him getting sacked).
Anyway, it's obvious we want the same thing at the end of the day..... Rafa to lead Liverpool to the Premiership Title. Crossed wires i reckon, between both our posts!!

Rafa will get it right, every year we get the moaning about the rotation policy, and I have to admit I do my fair share. However, After the New Year Rafa generally keeps the same 8 or 9 in the 1st team. This is what he means about keeping them fresh.
Apparently he did the same at Valencia, they all moaned and groaned, but not at the end of the season.

Rafa will get it right, every year we get the moaning about the rotation policy, and I have to admit I do my fair share. However, After the New Year Rafa generally keeps the same 8 or 9 in the 1st team. This is what he means about keeping them fresh.
Apparently he did the same at Valencia, they all moaned and groaned, but not at the end of the season.
The thing is though Merseyman, it's about getting the balance right. When we won the CL it worked well because our players were indeed fresh and ready come the important, end of season matches. However, if he is going to employ this system in the league (and it could be a good system) we need to still be in it come March/April. The players are obviously not happy with the system and we have some massive games coming up. If we fail to take the majority of points from our next three games, we could again be well out of the running come December! My point now is, what's the point of having fresh players, when the competition you want to win is well beyond you?

Don't get me wrong, i've stuck up for Rafa and his decisions against most on here (as most will confirm) but i'm now trying to think of it from a nuetral point of view. If we are still within 5 - 8 points of the leaders come March/April, then Rafa's policy could be a genious one! If not, then it will be seen as another failed season where Rafa's policy has again destroyed any chance (this season probably being our best chance) of lifting the EPL title!!

We shall have to wait and see how things develop. On our current form though (when Utd and Arsenal are winning, bonding and playing well) it doesn't look like we will be still in with a shout. If our form, confidence and individual performances pick up however, we could be in for a massive shout of the title. Me personally, i think we will fall short again. I hope i am wrong!!

My point now is, what's the point of having fresh players, when the competition you want to win is well beyond you?


About the same as the point of still being in touch with the leaders but having no fit players to finish the season with, I should think.

About the same as the point of still being in touch with the leaders but having no fit players to finish the season with, I should think.
Yeah i know that Heyesey. I was just trying to look at the debate from different angles!

Liverpool have a massive squad now, packed with quality and International players. I'm just saying, maybe injuries and suspensions will sort out the rotation, along with League Cup and FA Cup matches!
I'm not saying Rafa is wrong, just that you can see why everyone makes such a big deal out of the way Rafa rotates 5 - 6 players in every match?

Why don't Liverpool appoint 4 managers simultanoeusly and then rotate them?

Why don't Liverpool appoint 4 managers simultanoeusly and then rotate them?

they tried that with Houllier and Roy Evans

MadPaul I know what you are saying about getting the balance right, but lets be honest, the only really poor game has been Marsielle. Portsmouth and Birmingham were all games that we had enough chances but didn't put them away. Same with the 1st half against Spurs.
I didn' expect(and still don't) us to win the league this year, but I do expect us to be closer.

However, I hope I am wrong:D

Heyesey, I couldn't have put it any better myself!

But wait for the "yeah but how many League titles?"

I would say to that......

"Yeah but how many years in charge?"


Actually neither of those thoughts crossed my mind. I agree that Fergie has a terrible european record and as for his years in charge, 9 titles in 20 yaers is pretty good going!
No, my point was that there is some kind of myth that rafa is a great manager on a tight budget. he's outspent Fergie for chrissake and the list of failures at anfield is pretty long. As long as he keeps tinkering with his side , I m happy as Liverpools best team are a match for anyone and a real threat. No, keep Torres for the last 5 mins of every game please!
PS anyone know a good venue to atch games and get some banter?

No, my point was that there is some kind of myth that rafa is a great manager on a tight budget. he's outspent Fergie for chrissake!
I've never heard anyone say that Rafa is a great manager on a tight budget i must admit, but if you say so?
Rafa has outspent Fergie??? I can't see it fella!

keep Torres for the last 5 mins of every game please!
Torres has started every game apart from two in the premiership and in those two he came on with around 30 minutes to go. I think you may be exagerating just a tad with that comment matey!

I've never heard anyone say that Rafa is a great manager on a tight budget i must admit, but if you say so?
Rafa has outspent Fergie??? I can't see it fella!


Looking only at this summer, he probably has done.

Looking only at this summer, he probably has done.

Well, looking at just this summer, you have to be kidding right?

Fergie spent as much on Anderson as we did Torres (around the £20m mark). He then spent a further £17m on Nani and a further £17m on Hargreaves (all these approx).

Rafa spent around £20m on Torres, £13m on Babel, £5m on Benni and around £6m on Lucas.

Let's not forget though that Rafa recouped all but £18m of Liverpool's outgoings with the sales of Bellamy £7.5m, Cisse £6m and Gonzales £4.5m amongst others (i'll find the actual transfers out shortly).

I'm not saying Rafa hasn't spent plenty of money, he has. But to say he has outspent Fergie, in this season or any other in the last 15 years would be pretty wide of the mark!!

Anyway, it's obvious we want the same thing at the end of the day..... Rafa to lead Liverpool to the Premiership Title. Crossed wires i reckon, between both our posts!!

Sorry mate, perhaps I did overeact a little :rolleyes:

yes, he should be sacked ..... then come to the blades

yes, he should be sacked ..... then come to the blades

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

na na na na na na na na na na na na

Yesterday I read an article about Liverpool and Rafa and how the next league match for us is crucial to our season!
The writer of the article explained that the 3 points against Everton were crucial and gave us a real chance to get back amongst the leaders (not that we have ever really been out of it). He went on to say that; if next weekend Liverpool lose to Arsenal, things will become very difficult again with regards to winning the league however, if Liverpool win against Arsenal (4 - 1 last season suggests that we can) then it really is 'game on'. Taking into account that Liverpool are natorious for starting the season slowly and finishing it strongly, if Liverpool are still in the mix come January, then they have a real chance of claiming their first title in a very long time. The run-in will see Liverpool players still fresh, with no worries regarding fatigue due to the rotation Rafa employs with his team. If Liverpool do manage to pull this off and actually win the league, there will be alot of people who will be eating their words and Rafa, well, he will be hailed as an absolute geniuse!!

The author of the article I read got it more or less spot on in my opinion. Rafa should be judged at the end of the season, not now. We are currently undefeated in the league and have a few very important players (Agger, Alonso, Torres) coming back from injury, yet people still claim Rafa should be sacked ?????? It really is baffling!

Looking only at this summer, he probably has done.
You're kidding right? After spending (and these are approx figures)

£18m - £20m 0n Anderson
£17m on Hargreaves
£15m - 17m on Nani

And without recouping a great deal of money also?

Liverpool recouped all but £18m of the money they spent on players this summer!!!

Anybody looking at it from Liverpool perspective must see they need someone to come in who's going to settle on his best side and play them all together when fit. This is the sort of thing Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal have being doing for all the years Benitez has been at Liverpool and on the whole it has worked out better for them.
What all the 3 yrs that Rafa has been here?

You mention Arsenal in you're rundown of team performances (both in the league and cup competitions) and you say their policy has worked better than Rafa's!

Would you like to check the stats on that? I think you will find that Liverpool have finished above Arsenal in two of the three seasons Rafa has been at Liverpool and have also picked up alot more silverware including an F.A. Cup, Charity Shield, Super Cup and the Champions League Title, aswell as reaching a further Champions League Final and a League Cup Final!!!!

Does this mean Wenger should be sacked?

Have some fans lost all sense of perspective when despite beating our local rivals away from home with a last-minute penalty, maintaining our unbeaten run, continuing to build on our best ever start to a Premiership campaign, having the best away record in the Premiership (4 wins out of five), being just four points off last seasons champions with a game in hand and doing all this with two of our most influential players missing (Agger and Alonso), some fans still can't enjoy the moment and prefer to gripe about the season so far, a substitution or an individual's contribution to a game we've won?

Really, whatever he does, Rafa still can't please people :huh:

hi guys.
I found this list of transfers in recent years. It doesnt include the current season but is certainly interesting reading.
As for this season- you cant quote nani and anderson at 17 Million when they ve paid more like 7 upfornt and the rest depends on winning something like 2 european cups, the league, miss world and probably the general election. And Utd have sold a lot this season which means they have spent very little at all this season.
Anyway- before people start getting incandescent with rage, i shall point out again that I think rafa is a good manager though I laughed my head off when they were bracketing him, mourinho, fergie and wenger all togetther like greek gods. He has to win the title before he ranks up there. so i sgree- lets wait and see where liverpool are at the new year.
where do people here watch games as I have yet to find a good fitba pub? would be good to see the sunday game amongst some fans.


MUFC LFC CFC AFC
In Out In Out In Out In Out
92/93 6.0 1.9 5.4 2.3 4.8 4.7 4.1 2.0
93/94 1.5 0.5 1.9 0.8 6.2 1.7 2.1 1.9
94/95 6.0 12.1 17.1 1.5 2.8 2.1 18.6 3.6
95/96 8.2 5.9 0.0 1.5 9.7 3.5 0.5 1.7
96/97 3.5 4.5 14.0 9.6 10.8 4.3 21.7 10.1
97/98 15.8 6.4 5.0 1.7 14.9 5.0 1.0 1.0
98/99 17.0 1.8 12.1 4.8 3.3 2.0 13.8 4.9
99/00 17.8 1.7 36.3 9.7 45.1 8.0 23.0 29.0
00/01 0.0 8.0 18.5 12.5 26.7 29.3 37.0 31.7
01/02 57.6 2.8 29.9 18.7 15.0 6.6 15.2 4.2
02/03 31.5 2.0 8.7 5.7 0.5 1.0 6.6 5.4
03/04 53.1 41.0 22.5 6.0 153.5 7.1 18.8 0.1
04/05 22.0 8.5 25.6 16.5 56.8 12.7 6.0 2.6
05/06 17.5 7.2 36.9 9.5 111.4 20.8 25.5 15.7
06/07 16.0 27.2 18.3 7.5 22.0 15.8 4.5 33.6

273.5 131.5 252.2 108.3 483.5 124.6 198.4 147.5

you cant quote nani and anderson at 17 Million when they ve paid more like 7 upfornt and the rest depends on winning something like 2 european cups, the league, miss world and probably the general election.
Come on mate, they paid alot more than £7m for them! You need to check it out, i'd find you a link but I can't be bothered!

And Utd have sold a lot this season which means they have spent very little at all this season.
Liverpool recouped all but £18m of the money they spent this summer. I can't remember Utd selling anyone other than Smith!

I laughed my head off when they were bracketing him, mourinho, fergie and wenger all togetther like greek gods. He has to win the title before he ranks up there.
Why does he? Rafa has won titles in Spain when at the time Real Madrid and Barcelona were dominating. He has also won the champions league (something Wenger has not) and he has finished above Arsenal in the premiership in the last two years aswell as winning many more trophies in the three years he has been at Liverpool than Wenger has at Arsenal!
Just because he hasn't won the Premiership, that doesn't mean he is'nt in the same class as the other managers you have stated! Capello has never won a title in England! Can he be put in the same class as those you mention? B Robson? Venables?

Other than Heinze (£8m), Rossi (£6m), Richardson (£6 mill approx).......

Rafa Benitez will NEVER win the English title.

I would stake my life on that.

It doesnt matter how much you throw at him, he still just doesnt "get" it Premier League wise.
To their fans its the Holy Grail, not sure it is to him.

Rafa Benitez will NEVER win the English title.

I would stake my life on that.

It doesnt matter how much you throw at him, he still just doesnt "get" it Premier League wise.
To their fans its the Holy Grail, not sure it is to him.
Guddy, you may have a point (don't pass out now :D).
Although obviously Rafa would love to win the Premiership (every manager wants to win any league they are in) I do think that Rafa does always have one eye on the Champions League and this shows in his team selections during Premier League fixtures!
Maybe Liverpool and Manchester Utd should swap managers? I mean, Fergie would probably win the Premiership with the team built by Rafa and Rafa would probably win the Champions League (which is what Fergie is desperate for) with the squad assembled at Utd by Fergie. Once both teams have won the trophy they love, we could just swap back, almost as if there had never been a change at all ;)

I dont believe anyone could win the league with the Liverpool team!

Come on mate, they paid alot more than £7m for them! You need to check it out, i'd find you a link but I can't be bothered!

You obviously have inside info as to the deal then! 7M i think is what the official figure is. Headlines always quote the maximum fee which is rarely acieved. eg the 30M for Rooney would require that Utd win 2 european cups! As you point out, Utd seem further away than ever for that. But you cant quote 17M for anderson or for nani.


Liverpool recouped all but £18m of the money they spent this summer. I can't remember Utd selling anyone other than Smith!

Rubbish! as guderian says Utd got back lots this season.

Why does he? Rafa has won titles in Spain when at the time Real Madrid and Barcelona were dominating. He has also won the champions league (something Wenger has not) and he has finished above Arsenal in the premiership in the last two years aswell as winning many more trophies in the three years he has been at Liverpool than Wenger has at Arsenal!
Just because he hasn't won the Premiership, that doesn't mean he is'nt in the same class as the other managers you have stated! Capello has never won a title in England! Can he be put in the same class as those you mention? B Robson? Venables?

The point is that the papers were taking about these 4 managers in the contaxt of the English league. Of course they re not saying that they re the best 4 ever. It was al over th papers back in march where it was "We ve got the best 4 managers and they re all roughly equal" I m just saying that that is silly.

Still no answer as to where people like to watch the games though?
Guderian- why are you named after a Panzer Commander?

The point is that the papers were taking about these 4 managers in the contaxt of the English league. Of course they re not saying that they re the best 4 ever. It was al over th papers back in march where it was "We ve got the best 4 managers and they re all roughly equal" I m just saying that that is silly.
Still no answer as to why you add Wenger to the list when since Rafa has been at Liverpool he has taken us to a higher league positions in the last two seasons than Arsenal and won a stack more trophies than Wenger has, including a European cup?

The point is that the papers were taking about these 4 managers in the contaxt of the English league. Of course they re not saying that they re the best 4 ever. It was al over th papers back in march where it was "We ve got the best 4 managers and they re all roughly equal" I m just saying that that is silly.

Still no answer as to where people like to watch the games though?
Guderian- why are you named after a Panzer Commander?

Why not?

Its a good a name as any...

Why not?

Its a good a name as any...

i suppose so but it just struck me as kinda odd.
glad to see you share some of my view points at least. It feels like scouse central in here sometimes. Though oddly enough, not this morning!

Benitez has just shown what a complete dxxkhead he is today by the team selections. I don't get this guy, he leaves out people fully fit due to squad rotation and plays half fit people Torres and Alosnso today who get injured again.

Rafa shouldn't be sacked. Liverpool are not going to win the league with Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal in the same league, not this season and not next - it doesn't matter who the manager is.

And I hope they don't. They play dull football which bores me stupid and I'd rather see Arsenal win the league because they play such attractive football. Like Man U last year.

Thats your perogative if you do not think i am a qualified class 2 ref but why would i lie about something like that. if you wish to check this i will let you have my name and you can call sheffield and hallamshire f.a. if you want. I gave up 2 years ago, because I am near the retiring age for refs now and could not meet the fitness standard required. I will not stoop so low as you have done with the name calling to myself, just treat it with the contempt it deserves
Oh give over Daftlad, I'm welling up here. You're a class 2 referee that claimed Hibbert shouldn't have been sent off in the Derby recently, amongst other things! And to say referee's are supposed to show no bias hey :hihi:

Oh give over Daftlad, I'm welling up here. You're a class 2 referee that claimed Hibbert shouldn't have been sent off in the Derby recently, amongst other things! And to say referee's are supposed to show no bias hey :hihi:



Who is biased.
Yes I am a class two ref if you don't believe me thats your problem why should I say something like that if it aint true. People see things different ways, some people agree with me some people don't, I don't have a problem with that, but if all you want to do is come on and cause argument then you are looking at the wrong person

I dont believe anyone could win the league with the Liverpool team!
Too bad Clattenburg won't be around for many of their next 25 matches, though :hihi: They'll really miss him

Too bad Clattenburg won't be around for many of their next 25 matches, though :hihi: They'll really miss him

Im sure they can go to UEFA again and get special dispensation to have him referee all their matches. Bit like getting into the Champions league form 5th place or getting Mascherano signed without a whisper from anyone else.

Im sure they can go to UEFA again and get special dispensation to have him referee all their matches. Bit like getting into the Champions league form 5th place.
As holders of the CL they had a right to defend it. Would a boxer who had just won the title not be able to defend it because he lost previously to someone ranked lower than him? Sort it out fella!

or getting Mascherano signed without a whisper from anyone else.
Bu buda bup :rolleyes: Mascherano hasn't been signed for Liverpool, he is on loan!

Jesus, some people hey :rolleyes: You know what Raj; If you were a woman you would put lipstick on you're head, just to make-up you're mind :loopy:

he's signed some complete crap from abroad, paid way over the odds for average english players and his team selection is sometimes baffling

but they still do well in the league

don't think you could sack him on that basis

Guderian- why are you named after a Panzer Commander?
If I remember my history he was not just a panzer comander, but the panzer commander. Also didn't his son go on to be a general in the West German army?

paid way over the odds for average english players and his team selection is sometimes baffling

but they still do well in the league

don't think you could sack him on that basis

At last some sense :D

Bet you they make a profit of around £4m on Crouchy though (bought for £6m) ;)

And about £1m on Pennant (Bought for £6m) :D

Todays day and age, I wouldn't say they were that overpriced!

If I remember my history he was not just a panzer comander, but the panzer commander. Also didn't his son go on to be a general in the West German army?

Not sure about his son, but I know he is given the credit for the Blitzkrieg campaign and the way tanks were used -previously they were used as support behind the infantry, whilst he noticed that as tank speed increased, they could be used as spearheads, as they were in Poland and Belgium/France.

Anyway, back to the footy!

If I remember my history he was not just a panzer comander, but the panzer commander. Also didn't his son go on to be a general in the West German army?

Dual post, please delete..

Since Fergie became Manchester United manager:

Premiership/League Champions:

Manchester United 9
Liverpool 3

European Cups:

Manchester United 1
Liverpool 1

FA Cups

Manchester United 5
Liverpool 5

But if you look at 1990 onwards, it looks much worse for Liverpool when compared with their cross-Pennine rivals.

As holders of the CL they had a right to defend it. Would a boxer who had just won the title not be able to defend it because he lost previously to someone ranked lower than him? Sort it out fella!


Bu buda bup :rolleyes: Mascherano hasn't been signed for Liverpool, he is on loan!

Jesus, some people hey :rolleyes: You know what Raj; If you were a woman you would put lipstick on you're head, just to make-up you're mind :loopy:

Dont know about the make-up but i would certainly learn the difference between your and you're.
A champion boxer has the title. He always defends it (unless he throws it away or retires) and historically that has always been the way. No rules to break or manipulate. He is Number one so could hardly be told that you cant defend the title because you' re ranked outside the top 2! And are you implying that championship fights are always the top 2 ranked fighters???!!!!
The Champions league was always played by the top one, then two then three or four teams in the league depending on which league and how strong it was. Suddenly, because of Liverpool, the rule was altered to allow them to play. They were 5th! There was even talk of forcing Everton out of the league if they had qualified and liverpool were not allowed what they wanted! Talk about throwing your toys out the pram. I was pointing out the special treatment they received. Same with mascherano. With that arse Barwick at the FA, it was no surprise that the deal for mascherano went though with no problems and yet the deal for tevez this summer was a long drawn out affair with him eventually missing out on the Utd pre-season tour and the first few games of the season. It has taken that bit longer to bed him into the team. Again, one rule for liverpool and another for the others. There was even talk of him having to sit out the whole season until FIFA could pronounce on it.
Anyway enough of this. I shall resist from personal attacks.

Guderian- I m sure that I was right and that "you" were the architect of Blitzkrieg in your previous life. I m not sure what happened to him in the aftermath of the war if he was captured or tried at Nuremberg.
Still think it's an odd name to use!
I think I ll change mine to Yamamoto or Zhukov.

Same with mascherano. With that arse Barwick at the FA, it was no surprise that the deal for mascherano went though with no problems and yet the deal for tevez this summer was a long drawn out affair with him eventually missing out on the Utd pre-season tour and the first few games of the season. It has taken that bit longer to bed him into the team. Again, one rule for liverpool and another for the others. There was even talk of him having to sit out the whole season until FIFA could pronounce on it.
Anyway enough of this. I shall resist from personal attacks.
It took ages to register Mascherano as a Liverpool player :huh: Check it out. I really don't know where you get your facts from mate. It took the whole of the January transfer window and well beyond before Masch was allowed to play for us!
Anyway, like you say... enough of this!

Dont know about the make-up but i would certainly learn the difference between your and you're.
A champion boxer has the title. He always defends it (unless he throws it away or retires) and historically that has always been the way. No rules to break or manipulate. He is Number one so could hardly be told that you cant defend the title because you' re ranked outside the top 2! And are you implying that championship fights are always the top 2 ranked fighters???!!!!
The Champions league was always played by the top one, then two then three or four teams in the league depending on which league and how strong it was. Suddenly, because of Liverpool, the rule was altered to allow them to play. They were 5th! There was even talk of forcing Everton out of the league if they had qualified and liverpool were not allowed what they wanted! Talk about throwing your toys out the pram. I was pointing out the special treatment they received. Same with mascherano. With that arse Barwick at the FA, it was no surprise that the deal for mascherano went though with no problems and yet the deal for tevez this summer was a long drawn out affair with him eventually missing out on the Utd pre-season tour and the first few games of the season. It has taken that bit longer to bed him into the team. Again, one rule for liverpool and another for the others. There was even talk of him having to sit out the whole season until FIFA could pronounce on it.
Anyway enough of this. I shall resist from personal attacks.

Guderian- I m sure that I was right and that "you" were the architect of Blitzkrieg in your previous life. I m not sure what happened to him in the aftermath of the war if he was captured or tried at Nuremberg.
Still think it's an odd name to use!
I think I ll change mine to Yamamoto or Zhukov.

"Guderian was not charged with any war crimes during the Nuremberg Trials, as his actions and behavior were ruled to be consistent with those of a professional soldier" :|

"Guderian was not charged with any war crimes during the Nuremberg Trials, as his actions and behavior were ruled to be consistent with those of a professional soldier" :|
Hey, speaking of 'names', I thought I saw you'rs today on a loaf of bread! But when I looked more closely I realised it said.......
'Thick Cut' :hihi:

Only kiddin Guddy, I'm just bored :D

I think I ll change mine to Yamamoto or Zhukov.

Zhukov would be a very cool name, Yamamoto not so cool.

Zhukov would be a very cool name, Yamamoto not so cool.

But Yamamoto was arguably the greatest tactician of the war. Probably not a great name for the form though?
whats the JFK v Nixon thing then? Fan of US electoral history are we?

Anyone got predictions for the weekends results?
I think arsenal 1-0, Prob the pool to draw at blackburn and chelsea to destroy Wigan.
But I hope I m wrong on all three!

But Yamamoto was arguably the greatest tactician of the war. Probably not a great name for the form though?
whats the JFK v Nixon thing then? Fan of US electoral history are we?

Anyone got predictions for the weekends results?
I think arsenal 1-0, Prob the pool to draw at blackburn and chelsea to destroy Wigan.
But I hope I m wrong on all three!

United WILL score at Emirates. Not saying any more than that.

United WILL score at Emirates. Not saying any more than that.

hope you re right pal. just hope you re right!
key may be if Utd can mark fabregas out of the game a la phil neville on vieira at least twice. If Hargreaves can do a similar job then great but if he gets booked early on then it may be long day for Utd.

hope you re right pal. just hope you re right!
key may be if Utd can mark fabregas out of the game a la phil neville on vieira at least twice. If Hargreaves can do a similar job then great but if he gets booked early on then it may be long day for Utd.

I want Utd to outplay them, not try and kick them off the park like we did a few years ago.

At last some sense :D

Bet you they make a profit of around £4m on Crouchy though (bought for £6m) ;)

And about £1m on Pennant (Bought for £6m) :D

Todays day and age, I wouldn't say they were that overpriced!
Do you seriously believe anyone would pay £7 million for Pennant?

Do you seriously believe anyone would pay £7 million for Pennant?

Don't take him too seriously.
No one else does....

Do you seriously believe anyone would pay £7 million for Pennant?
Whether I think he is worth it or not is irrelivent. Man Utd got £6m for Richardson so yes, going on that, I do think Liverpool could get £7m for Pennant!

Don't take him too seriously.
No one else does....
:hihi: Well no one would, seeing as i'm the only Liverpool fan on here and everyone else hates them :hihi:

Pinch of salt Guddy lad, pinch of salt ;)

papers today talking baout £20M for Carson and Crouch. Now that would be great business for players not worthy of first team status. Carson hardly seems to have got a 1st team game! well done rafa.
How come Utd never manage to do business like Liverpool or Arsenal. Nistelrooy and beckham were virtually given away considering what they were worth. P@@ses me off it does.

I think Benitez is off sooner than later after readig this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7108721.stm

I think Benitez is off sooner than later after readig this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7108721.stm
Benitez may well walk however, he will not be sacked!

After todays performance which leaves Liverpool 3 points behind the leaders and in a great position leading into the xmas period, it would be silly to even suggest that Rafa could be given the boot!

Apparently Moyes walks into the weekly Friday press conference yesterday at Finch Farm, with a big smile on his face and before any of the journo's asked a question.

Moyesy says: "As always I am focused on training and coaching my team."

Everyone ****** themselves. We wonder what he was referring to?

Apparently Moyes walks into the weekly Friday press conference yesterday at Finch Farm, with a big smile on his face and before any of the journo's asked a question.

Moyesy says: "As always I am focused on training and coaching my team."

Everyone ****** themselves. We wonder what he was referring to?
Rafa Benitez? :rolleyes:

Not debating the question but another outburst from Rafa leads me to thinking, he sailing very close to the wind, following his midweek warning!

Benitez may well walk however, he will not be sacked!

If he thinks he can get away with criticizing his owners, he might find himself holding a P45 before the end of this week. Americans, from my experience, will NOT stand for their employees going against their orders, or criticizing them in public.

If he thinks he can get away with criticizing his owners, he might find himself holding a P45 before the end of this week. Americans, from my experience, will NOT stand for their employees going against their orders, or criticizing them in public.

I don't think the Yanks understand the british culture, but then again US sports is very different to the UK. For example, in the US players don't gand up on officials, managers don't swear at officials (Fergie) or abuse them into retirement (Mourinho). Fans don't swear at everyone, or encourage their scummy kids to behave the same way. There is a general lack of respect for owners. Benitez's comments may sound controversial, but maybe some of it is lost in translation. I can't see him leaving Liverpool, or being forced out. How would Gillett and Hicks deal with a Mourinho!!!

I don't think the Yanks understand the british culture, but then again US sports is very different to the UK. For example, in the US players don't gand up on officials, managers don't swear at officials (Fergie) or abuse them into retirement (Mourinho). Fans don't swear at everyone, or encourage their scummy kids to behave the same way. There is a general lack of respect for owners. Benitez's comments may sound controversial, but maybe some of it is lost in translation. I can't see him leaving Liverpool, or being forced out. How would Gillett and Hicks deal with a Mourinho!!!

How is this British culture? Benitez is Spanish and Mourinho is Portuguese. Also have you ever watched baseball or ice hockey?

How is this British culture? Benitez is Spanish and Mourinho is Portuguese. Also have you ever watched baseball or ice hockey?


which baseball or ice hockey incidents are you referring to?

which baseball or ice hockey incidents are you referring to?

I often see players and officials go eye to eye in base ball, and there are regular fights in ice hockey.

players fighting is not the point - there is less respect generally for officials and owners in this country i.e. the people you are supposed to respect - when a team wins a trophy in the US they give the trophy to the team owner - can you imagine that happening here?
Managers here seem to think they can get away with doing or saying what they want. Benitez's behaviour is wrong - whatever he has to say about getting players should be done behind closed doors, or through Rick Parry. Having said that Benitez is one of the more respectful managers, but I can sees him getting sucked in to our way of doing things in the same way it has happened to Wenger.

I often see players and officials go eye to eye in base ball, and there are regular fights in ice hockey.

Quite right, it does happen. There's one major difference, though.

Any player who so much as makes contact with an official in US sports, is automatically kicked out of the game. Any player (or manager) who argues with an official's decision is, likewise, kicked out of the game. Usually when that happens, since they've already been booted they stay there and shout a bit more, but they invariable pay the price for their actions.

Consider rugby union, as well, where arguing with the referee just moves you back ten metres and/or gets you a ten-minute break. It's only really in football where the officials are intimidated.

I don't think the Yanks understand the british culture, but then again US sports is very different to the UK.

....How would Gillett and Hicks deal with a Mourinho!!!

Mourinho wouldn't last a week in American sports. Hell, he didn't last long once he started implying criticism of Abramovich. American owners would have given him a damn sight less time and rope.

It's a very simple equation. If you're not happy with the guy who employs you, you leave, either willingly or by force.

we ve gone off track a bit with this american sport culture thing.
Unless the yanks have an eye on Mourinho already, they are daft to think that getting shot of rafa is goign to help liverpool. As Paul has said, they are 3 points behind Utd and have a game in hand. they are unbeaten in the league and i still think will qualify for champions league next round. And Rafa is right about wanting to sign mascherano who has been brilliant for them.
Bleedin yanks! These are the people who wanted the game broken into quarters and longer breaks fro throw ins so they could get ads running! stay out of it!
and i doubt that mourinho will do better than rafa has given the amount he had spent on players at chelsea albeit some of them were forced on him.
Im warming to rafa more and more- his repeating the training/coaching line is actually very funny though agree risky!

Just read this article from the BBc website from when Benitez left Valencia. Sound familiar?

"Benitez is known to have had his differences with the board and in particular with the club's sporting director Jesus Garcia Pitarch.

"The two clashed at the start of the season over the control of possible new signings and Benitez expressed his dissatisfaction over the club's failure to reinforce the squad with players he had recommended."

Just read this article from the BBc website from when Benitez left Valencia. Sound familiar?

"Benitez is known to have had his differences with the board and in particular with the club's sporting director Jesus Garcia Pitarch.

"The two clashed at the start of the season over the control of possible new signings and Benitez expressed his dissatisfaction over the club's failure to reinforce the squad with players he had recommended."
Indeed!

The thing with Benitez is that he is very driven. He is so determined in his work (reports that he is often up untill 1am - 2am in the morning just studying videos etc. He once stated that he wakes suddenly in the night with an idea or something to add to training, so gets up and starts writing it all down). If Rafa feels that the same level of commitment is not been given by the board, he becomes extremely frustrated and tends to lash out. What he needs to remember however is that the members of the board (the owners) are the ones dipping their hands into their pockets, not him!

Rafa is doing a great job in my opinion and will get the finincial backing from the owners each year however, he really needs to tone down these rants at the bosses, otherwise he will find himself out of a job which would be stupid as he clearly loves it at Liverpool!

Indeed!

The thing with Benitez is that he is very driven. He is so determined in his work (reports that he is often up untill 1am - 2am in the morning just studying videos etc. He once stated that he wakes suddenly in the night with an idea or something to add to training, so gets up and starts writing it all down). If Rafa feels that the same level of commitment is not been given by the board, he becomes extremely frustrated and tends to lash out. What he needs to remember however is that the members of the board (the owners) are the ones dipping their hands into their pockets, not him!

Rafa is doing a great job in my opinion and will get the finincial backing from the owners each year however, he really needs to tone down these rants at the bosses, otherwise he will find himself out of a job which would be stupid as he clearly loves it at Liverpool!

I'd say that pretty well sums it up - Rafa is probably regretting his outburst, and is a worried man, as well he should be - it is not the Liverpool way to spout off in public. Let's hope they patch things up

I'm a Liverpool fan and I completely support Rafa in this. He's speaking out because he cares about the club and doesn't feel he's getting the support he deserves from the owners. If Rafa ends up leaving because of two Americans who know absolutely nothing about "soccer", I'll be furious.

I've got a ticket in the Kop for the Porto match tomorrow night and I'll be taking my singing voice along. I'll be singing myself hoarse in support of Rafa. The fans are behind Rafa in this. Even if we don't win tomorrow, Rafa should still stay, although I'm worried that the owners would use that as the excuse to get rid of him. If Rafa does go then I'm not going to Anfield again this season.

Ra-Ra-Ra Rafa Benitez
Ra-Ra-Ra Rafa Benitez
Xabi Alonso, Pepe Reina and Torres
Raaaaaaafaaaaaaaa Benitez
Raaaaaaafaaaaaaaa Benitez
Ra-Ra-Ra Rafa Benitez

I disagree - this week has been a lesson to managers that you insult team owners at your peril - Gillett and Hicks are doing as much as Rafa for Liverpool by spending on players like Torres and Babel, and by investing heavily in the new stadium - Rafa may have his views, but he should keep them to himself and speak directly to the board rather than the press - when Arsenal told Wenger 4 years ago that thay were building a new stadium and there would be no big money signings, he accepted the situation and got on with developing a new team on a comparative shoestring. Rafa take note.

I disagree - this week has been a lesson to managers that you insult team owners at your peril - Gillett and Hicks are doing as much as Rafa for Liverpool by spending on players like Torres and Babel, and by investing heavily in the new stadium - Rafa may have his views, but he should keep them to himself and speak directly to the board rather than the press - when Arsenal told Wenger 4 years ago that thay were building a new stadium and there would be no big money signings, he accepted the situation and got on with developing a new team on a comparative shoestring. Rafa take note.

The issue here isn't money but competence in running a football club. The reason Rafa is so annoyed (and rightly so) is that he already has one or two transfer targets in mind and has mentioned these to Gillett and Hicks, but they've replied that they won't even discuss transfers until the next time they come to Anfield, which is for the Man Utd game on Dec 16th.

If we're after a player then it's a safe assumption that other clubs are too, so waiting three weeks to start a deal is madness. Gillett and Hicks obviously don't understand that when it comes to transfers, you have to move quickly. Rafa has tried to communicate this to the owners but has been ignored, so he felt he had no choice but to go public.

As I said, I support Rafa in this and so do the rest of Liverpool's fans. There's a Rafa support march planned before the game tonight, of which I will be proud to attend. The reason Anfield has it's famous reputation for atmosphere isn't because of run-of-the-mill Premier League games (which can often be quite flat), but because of special occasions like this. Just like the Truth Day protest against Arsenal in the FA cup 3rd round last year, when we're fired up we can pull off something really special. Watch Anfield tonight. The Kop supports Rafa.

:D

The issue here isn't money but competence in running a football club. The reason Rafa is so annoyed (and rightly so) is that he already has one or two transfer targets in mind and has mentioned these to Gillett and Hicks, but they've replied that they won't even discuss transfers until the next time they come to Anfield, which is for the Man Utd game on Dec 16th.

If we're after a player then it's a safe assumption that other clubs are too, so waiting three weeks to start a deal is madness. Gillett and Hicks obviously don't understand that when it comes to transfers, you have to move quickly. Rafa has tried to communicate this to the owners but has been ignored, so he felt he had no choice but to go public.

As I said, I support Rafa in this and so do the rest of Liverpool's fans. There's a Rafa support march planned before the game tonight, of which I will be proud to attend. The reason Anfield has it's famous reputation for atmosphere isn't because of run-of-the-mill Premier League games (which can often be quite flat), but because of special occasions like this. Just like the Truth Day protest against Arsenal in the FA cup 3rd round last year, when we're fired up we can pull off something really special. Watch Anfield tonight. The Kop supports Rafa.:D

Well said, and let me congratulate you on a ..........................


.........Brilliant post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a brilliant post apart from the bit about going public - why did he need to do that? What is Rick Parry for?

It's a brilliant post apart from the bit about going public - why did he need to do that? What is Rick Parry for?

No-one knows what Rick Parry is for.

How do we know that Rafa hasn't already tried all diplomatic means and felt that going public was the only way to get his point across?

We don't - we can only speculate, as can the press.

A scoucer was on sky sports and they were talking about him and this scoucer was talking absolute ****e "this manager is amazing, he is the best manager liverpool has ever had and they should never sack him"

pillock!

A scoucer was on sky sports and they were talking about him and this scoucer was talking absolute ****e "this manager is amazing, he is the best manager liverpool has ever had and they should never sack him"

pillock!

Whats a "scoucer"?

No-one knows what Rick Parry is for.

How do we know that Rafa hasn't already tried all diplomatic means and felt that going public was the only way to get his point across?

We don't - we can only speculate, as can the press.

The new owners stated that Rick Parry WILL be in charge of the dealings for players coming in and going out at Liverpool. However, this arrangement is not yet in place and is due to be discussed at the meeting in December after the Utd game when all the details were to be agreed between the four of them! In the meantime there is no middle man (Parry) and this is what is causing the friction because obviously Rafa wants to progress with his transfer targets, but the owners have plans for transfer dealings which they want to enforce from the day of the meeting in December. The new owners are also in the middle of securing the money for the new stadium, which also isn't helping matters regarding money for transfers!

A scoucer was on sky sports and they were talking about him and this scoucer was talking absolute ****e "this manager is amazing, he is the best manager liverpool has ever had and they should never sack him"

pillock!
The SCOUSER in question had a good point! Although Rafa isn't the best manager Liverpool have ever had, he is still a great manager! Anyone who suggests otherwise is infact a 'pillock'!

Maybe someone should go to Anfield and install some videoconferencing facilities

The SCOUSER in question had a good point! Although Rafa isn't the best manager Liverpool have ever had, he is still a great manager! Anyone who suggests otherwise is infact a 'pillock'!


what point did he have? do you agree with him?

he stated that he was the best manager they have ever had- ego- he's a pillock.