About time, those horrible floors are gone, nice and smooth trolly experience.

I'd give it 9.0 out of 10.

Let me down on

the parking - worst than Medowhall near christmas.
Salad bar - worst combination and limited selection considering the size of the place.
and poor Vegetarian selection.

Other than that, you can buy virtually everything you need under one roof.

I agree it is quite a nice environment to shop - However, has anyone been at chrsitmas before to do the big 'shop' well always been ok, but it takes FOREVER !! Now it will be worse as they have imposed parking restrictions - you can only be there for a certain amount of time or you get clamped !!! How mad is that I ask you ?

you can only be there for a certain amount of time or you get clamped !!!

Yep! We think it's crazy too! You only get 2 hours now before you get fined/clamped. It doesn't seem so harsh at this time of year but come Christmas they'll be making a right mint.

:o

I'm ok, I only live round the corner - well, 10 minutes walk.

Can't say I'm that impressed with what they've done, though. What they're selling upstairs is not a lot different from what they sold previously, but they do have good prices for CDs and DVDs.

Christmas will be hell, as usual, no matter where you go!

I go streight from working the night shift at Christmas, best time is 06.00 then i go home and go to bed.
Sorted, no hassle, quick and sensible.

Originally posted by caprice
Yep! We think it's crazy too! You only get 2 hours now before you get fined/clamped.
I notice all the 2's on the notices now have 3's stuck over them :thumbsup:

damn me i never realised there WAS parking restictons!!!! im either blind or the notices are not too obvious. We go there saturday morning for breakfast afore the shopoing, might have to rethink that now

dave

Now that it is revamped do you have to buy new slippers and a new shell suit to shop there?

I just love the trolley escalator thing! Genius!!!!!!

Who-ever invented this needs a pat on the bk! Hours of fun!

Matt

Originally posted by Strix
I notice all the 2's on the notices now have 3's stuck over them :thumbsup:


Result !!

The cafe is useless. Although some of the food is OK, it's always understaffed by some of the slowest workers I've ever seen. The regularly run out of cutlery, various drinks and change. You waste half of your parking time waiting in the queue.

Originally posted by Lindseyw
I agree it is quite a nice environment to shop - However, has anyone been at chrsitmas before to do the big 'shop' well always been ok, but it takes FOREVER !! Now it will be worse as they have imposed parking restrictions - you can only be there for a certain amount of time or you get clamped !!! How mad is that I ask you ?

do it online its a doddle,even i don't mind doin the shopping now:D year before last we did it at 4am........:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Lindseyw
Result !!
BTW - if I'd been shopping for a digital camera, then had a rummage round George and bought a new outfit before finally getting around to doing my fortnightly shop, only to find a clamp or parking fine on my windscreen - I'd be straight back in for a refund on everything and infoming the manager of my intentions to frequent Tesco from now on :rant: ;)

Originally posted by matt1889
I just love the trolley escalator thing! Genius!!!!!!

Who-ever invented this needs a pat on the bk! Hours of fun!

Matt

they've been around for ages, sainsburys has used them for quite a few years now:thumbsup:

WallMart are of course massive in the us and would love to be number 1 over here

However I feel they do not quite understand the UK market like they do their own particularly with refrence to quality which is why Tesco are market leaders over here and I do not think Asda/Walmart will overtake them anytime soon as they appear to me to miss the point that when it comes to groceries being the best means a combination of good quality and prices not just pile it high sell it cheap mentality.

i've always liked asda baked goods though, especially their breadcakes.

as for fruit and vedgetables, anybody thats seen the state of them in morrisons at catcliffe lately will know you cant get much worse than theirs

but dont go late night shopping this week. its the first 24hourstore i know that closes @ midnight.

I work at asda and the reason we are closing at midnight on the run up to xmas is so that we can re-stock the shelves safely without having to worry about the shelves being empty or delivery on the floor. We did this last year and the overall response by our customers was good, they agreed it was better than walking round the shop at 3am and the shelves being empty. We are open again at 6am so are only closed for 6 hours.

Originally posted by wreck
I work at asda and the reason we are closing at midnight on the run up to xmas is so that we can re-stock the shelves safely without having to worry about the shelves being empty or delivery on the floor. We did this last year and the overall response by our customers was good, they agreed it was better than walking round the shop at 3am and the shelves being empty. We are open again at 6am so are only closed for 6 hours.

Strange... my old Asda down South would be stacking shelves through the night during the Xmas period... i didnt see a problem with it myself... i found it more helpful to be honest... as help was always at hand if you couldnt find something you were looking for... :)

Originally posted by SpeedwayDan
as for fruit and vedgetables, anybody thats seen the state of them in morrisons at catcliffe lately will know you cant get much worse than theirs

Too true, Morrisons have vile fruit & veg, you might get 25% extra in everything but thats to cover the percentage that will be mouldy when you open the packet.

They do have a butcher though, which Asda used to have.

Originally posted by matt1889
I just love the trolley escalator thing! Genius!!!!!!

Who-ever invented this needs a pat on the bk! Hours of fun!

Matt

You should try walking off the site with a trolley, even more fun. Brace yourself if you do try it though. They have an anti trolley theft system that locks the wheels when you cross a particular point :)

Oh, I'll be so glad to be drawing something other than ASDA's in January!

They need to put a huge sign up telling people that the new entrance is now open, I think I'm the only one who's used it. Everyone else coming up from the roundabout is still queuing to turn in right at the lights.

Originally posted by wreck
I work at asda and the reason we are closing at midnight on the run up to xmas is so that we can re-stock the shelves safely without having to worry about the shelves being empty or delivery on the floor. We did this last year and the overall response by our customers was good, they agreed it was better than walking round the shop at 3am and the shelves being empty. We are open again at 6am so are only closed for 6 hours.

dont disgaree with the idea but when u turn up @ 1.15 in a morning after trailing to get there, it don't make you a happy bunny.

Originally posted by nick2
Too true, Morrisons have vile fruit & veg, you might get 25% extra in everything but thats to cover the percentage that will be mouldy when you open the packet.

They do have a butcher though, which Asda used to have.

Totally agree with the comment about their fruit and veg.Their banana's that i buy are black within 3 days. Sainsbbury's is alot better with fruit and veg.

Originally posted by Strix
BTW - if I'd been shopping for a digital camera, then had a rummage round George and bought a new outfit before finally getting around to doing my fortnightly shop, only to find a clamp or parking fine on my windscreen - I'd be straight back in for a refund on everything and infoming the manager of my intentions to frequent Tesco from now on :rant: ;)

You and me both Strix... Its a bit of a cheek, them putting a time restriction on how long you can park there, yet I see why they've done it, as some people may be using it as a cheap park and ride etc...

I don't think I could spend 3 hours in the shop now... I know it so well, I've tried on all the clothes and I could tell you whats on aisle 4 on the 3rd shelf up... etc lol!

Originally posted by caprice
I don't think I could spend 3 hours in the shop now... I know it so well, I've tried on all the clothes and I could tell you whats on aisle 4 on the 3rd shelf up... etc lol!

me too ladies frillies , red babydoll @ the moment LOL

Originally posted by PerlOfWisdom
The cafe is useless. Although some of the food is OK, it's always understaffed by some of the slowest workers I've ever seen. The regularly run out of cutlery, various drinks and change. You waste half of your parking time waiting in the queue.

To be honest though the amount of work they have to do - it's not their personal fault they are under-staffed it's the chair-warmers upstairs... :)

Originally posted by HazyJane
They need to put a huge sign up telling people that the new entrance is now open, I think I'm the only one who's used it. Everyone else coming up from the roundabout is still queuing to turn in right at the lights.

Not everyone I seem to be about the only other person also.

Great to sail past and look at them cueing at the lights.

The only down-side to the re-vamp is that they use the nasty plastic speed bumps which make you slow down to snail pace - annoying the person behind (which is why I avoid them as much as possible).

Originally posted by HazyJane
They need to put a huge sign up telling people that the new entrance is now open, I think I'm the only one who's used it. Everyone else coming up from the roundabout is still queuing to turn in right at the lights.

I wondered who was using the new sliproad. they do need to advertise it. Though I suppose you only have to go past it once to remember to use it next time...

what new entrance??? where abouts is it?

dave

Originally posted by unners
Totally agree with the comment about their fruit and veg.Their banana's that i buy are black within 3 days. Sainsbbury's is alot better with fruit and veg.

Sainsburys veg is ok, but way overpriced. I had to laugh at their adverts where they were saying they had reduced 1000's of prices, probably because they were losing customers to Tesco and Asda.

instead of turning off left onto handsworth road, carry on round the roundabout and take the next left, then you will see a sliproad that goes up the side of the car park

Originally posted by nick2
Sainsburys veg is ok, but way overpriced. I had to laugh at their adverts where they were saying they had reduced 1000's of prices, probably because they were losing customers to Tesco and Asda.

ads like that make me laugh. same with asda's 'rollback' ones - it just makes me think aaaahhh so you were really ripping me off before.

Originally posted by Fudbeer


Tesco are market leaders over here and I do not think Asda/Walmart will overtake them anytime soon as they appear to me to miss the point that when it comes to groceries being the best means a combination of good quality and prices not just pile it high sell it cheap mentality.

Which incidentally is the same policy which made Tesco No.1 in the UK to start with

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
Which incidentally is the same policy which made Tesco No.1 in the UK to start with

Indeed - but the world has changed since then. Pile it high/sell it cheap is now the preserve of Netto and Aldi. Tesco offer quality, not just cheap goods.

I do the weekly shop at Asda now instead of Morrisons. The only problems I have with Asda, is the parking still and the very poor policy they have for re-stocking shelves. They seem to employ more people taking things off the shelves for online orders, then they do stocking shelves when supplies run out.

I haven't been to Asda for yonks; the member of staff who pushed between me and the shelf while I was looking for something, without so much as an "excuse me" or "kiss my a**e" did it for me. I've been religiously shopping at Tesco but recently switched to Morrisons at Meadowhead. I ws going to try Catcliffe but wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole at this time of year. I also find that by not going to Asda I don't spend as much time in there nor do I spend as much money cos in Asda my first port of call is always the upstairs.

As for restrictions on parking, it's obscene. Waitrose do it at Ecclesall Road as well. Don't think the others have cottoned on yet. But in Asda I was always more than an hour shopping so it's a bit unfair :mad:

Never mind the parking restrictions, what about the lazy *!*s that park in the areas reserved for people with young children? I get fed up of there being nowhere to park when I take my two small children shopping. There's always plenty of disabled spots as you wouldn't dare park there without a badge!! Before someone posts "why can't you park somewhere else in the car park, your children can walk" I accept this but the idea of the parent and child spaces is to make life that little bit easier for those of us who have little live wires and would prefer not to have to walk through a busy and dangerous car park! :thumbsup:

Never mind the parking restrictions, what about the lazy *!*s that park in the areas reserved for people with young children? I get fed up of there being nowhere to park when I take my two small children shopping. There's always plenty of disabled spots as you wouldn't dare park there without a badge!! Before someone posts "why can't you park somewhere else in the car park, your children can walk" I accept this but the idea of the parent and child spaces is to make life that little bit easier for those of us who have little live wires and would prefer not to have to walk through a busy and dangerous car park! :thumbsup:

Sorry all, not shouting or anything! Not quite sure why that's on there twice? :confused:

I agree with you Chez 26, as find it a nightmare too, with my 2 kids as well. Am mad as i've just come back from John Lewis and out of more than hundred car parking spaces there is only about six parent and child ones arrghhh!:rant:

Originally posted by mucha
there is only about six parent and child ones arrghhh!:rant:

Six too many in my opinion. :roll:

Originally posted by Andy
Six too many in my opinion. :roll:

Why??:confused:

Originally posted by mucha
Am mad as i've just come back from John Lewis and out of more than hundred car parking spaces there is only about six parent and child ones arrghhh!:rant:

You are allowed to use normal parking spaces too.

About time, those horrible floors are gone, nice and smooth trolly experience.
not sure about that,i still look like aveline boswell out of bread,when i go shopping in my heels,not a pretty sight:thumbsup:

has anyone actually ever been clamped or seen a car clamped in the asda car park?
There's a lot of moaning going on about what is essentially a sign to deter people from using it as a park and ride.

RE: child parking spaces, why should those of us without children be punished?

park and ride???? to where and on what?, are the bus routes past asda really that good and frequent?

on another tack went up there saurday and there was no potatoes!!! and numeroud other stock lacking, mind there were plenty of fireworks!!, what does their stock manager do???? obviously not the job he/she is paid for

dave

Originally posted by alchemist
on another tack went up there saurday and there was no potatoes!!! and numeroud other stock lacking,

I walked down to Waitrose for a loaf of bread and more beer and found the same, it was like shopping in Russia.

Originally posted by chez26
Why??:confused:

(too many kids parking spaces)

Because why do you need special parking spaces because you've got children? They never had them when I was a kid and I survived the trauma of having to walk across a car park.

If your kids can't cope with walking a few yards, then leave them at home.

Its not distance from the shop entrance that matters, its the space between the parking bays. Kids dont care when they fling open a car door wether they dent the next car or not.

Are there rules about how many disabled spaces a car park should have? I bet there isnt for parent and child spaces, they are just there for customer relations.

Originally posted by Andy
(too many kids parking spaces)

Because why do you need special parking spaces because you've got children? They never had them when I was a kid and I survived the trauma of having to walk across a car park.

If your kids can't cope with walking a few yards, then leave them at home.

It's not for kids that can walk though, it's for young kids in prams.

You tried humping a pram and several carrier bags full of shopping and a pram at the same time into the boot of a car?! I know it ain't easy and I've never done it, but have seen people try and do it at Tesco's etc.

Originally posted by Andy
(too many kids parking spaces)

Because why do you need special parking spaces because you've got children? They never had them when I was a kid and I survived the trauma of having to walk across a car park.

If your kids can't cope with walking a few yards, then leave them at home.

I am assuming you have no children of your own?

When you were a kid there probably wasn't as many cars? (Assuming you're not 12??) Asda car park gets very busy and dangerous for adults walking through it never mind children. I'm not saying there should be more spaces or that it is too traumatic for my children to walk through the car park. What I am saying is those spaces are there for safety reasons, if you'd read my post properly you would have seen that I have 2 very small children who I do try to avoid taking shopping, however when that isn't possible I shall not be leaving them home alone!? You are obviuosly ignorant and lazy!! Just for the record I am neither, and am not even slightly bothered where I park when I am on my own! :rant:

Originally posted by martss
Its not distance from the shop entrance that matters, its the space between the parking bays. Kids dont care when they fling open a car door wether they dent the next car or not...
So teach them not to open car doors until instructed to do so, or keep the doors locked until you're ready to get them out of the car.
The kids should be taught to care whether they dent the next car along when they fling their own door open. I'd be highly unamused if my car got dented in such a fashion.

Originally posted by chez26
I am assuming you have no children of your own?
Having kids is a lifestyle choice. You choose to have the kids, you choose the problems that go along with having them, including negotiating the frightening world of the supermarket car park.

Originally posted by chez26
When you were a kid there probably wasn't as many cars? (Assuming you're not 12??) Asda car park gets very busy and dangerous for adults walking through it never mind children. I'm not saying there should be more spaces or that it is too traumatic for my children to walk through the car park. What I am saying is those spaces are there for safety reasons, if you'd read my post properly you would have seen that I have 2 very small children who I do try to avoid taking shopping, however when that isn't possible I shall not be leaving them home alone!?
You could always go at a time that isn't so busy. If the kids are small, put them in reigns (or whatever the 21st century equivelent is) so they don't go wondering off in front of cars, or keep them strapped in the pram. As long as the kids are under control, strapped in etc, the car park shouldn't be a dangerous place.
Originally posted by chez26
You are obviuosly ignorant and lazy!! Just for the record I am neither, and am not even slightly bothered where I park when I am on my own! :rant:
Whoah, a bit of a leap there. Many drivers really do take the p**s with the 'parent and child' parking. Many a time I've seen drivers park in these spaces at Borders or wherever and get out of their car with their two eight years olds.

You sound like my Grandma! "We didn't have it that easy in my day!":rolleyes:

Originally posted by chez26
You sound like my Grandma! "We didn't have it that easy in my day!":rolleyes:
Not a question of having it easy. It's more a case of causing the least possible annoyance and inconvenience to those of us who choose not to have kids :D .

i agree with ppn_2204, i was always instructed to be careful of the car doors, and if it was too tight, i always remember my mum or dad opening the door for us, then being told not to walk off

simple solution for no having enough kid spaces get off you arses and catch the bus:banana:

Originally posted by geo666uk
simple solution for no having enough kid spaces get off you arses and catch the bus:banana:

Slight problem with that, no buses go anywhere near the ASDA...

Even I know that and I don't live anywhere near Handsworth.

Originally posted by geo666uk
simple solution for no having enough kid spaces get off you arses and catch the bus:banana:

Oh right? So leave the car at home and make things worse by catching a bus and then having to make two extra trips because you can't carry all your shopping at once? :confused:

Why can't people who don't have children get off theirs and catch the bus?

I can't believe the attitude some people have!:gag:

Originally posted by chez26
...I can't believe the attitude some people have!:gag:
I think you're the one who called someone ignorant and lazy because s/he dared to suggest that your kids might like to walk through the car park to the supermarket.

No I actually was just defending people with children who he/she suggested were lazy and shouldn't qualify for any help with keeping their children safe. I just can't see why it is so much to ask to be able to have a safe parking space with room enough to be able to open your door and be able to safely put in a small child or baby in car seat. Only people with no children seem to have a problem:confused:

Originally posted by chez26
No I actually was just defending people with children who he/she suggested were lazy and shouldn't qualify for any help with keeping their children safe.
I think your actual quote was:
You are obviuosly ignorant and lazy!!
The parent and child car parking spaces aren't meant to keep your kids safe. They're presumably situated where they are so that parents with small kids in prams etc don't have to struggle too far from the supermarket door to their cars. Aditionally, the extra space lets the car door open wide enough without banging other people's cars when struggling with child seats etc.
Originally posted by chez26
I just can't see why it is so much to ask to be able to have a safe parking space with room enough to be able to open your door and be able to safely put in a small child or baby in car seat. Only people with no children seem to have a problem:confused:
No problem with most parents using them (apart from the ones with 8+ year olds), though I do think there are too many of them. Again, I don't think they're there for safety; more for convenience. The number of kids that are allowed to run amock in supermarkets and other shops because the parents can't keep their spawn under control is amazing. Use reigns, keep them in their prams or generally just keep tight hold of them. Then they'll be safe.

Two words.....High and Horse...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by chez26
Two words.....High and Horse...:rolleyes:
Yes, and the view's lovely :) .
I'm simply expressing my opinion, just like you are.

Originally posted by Rich
Slight problem with that, no buses go anywhere near the ASDA...

Even I know that and I don't live anywhere near Handsworth.

What about the 52, the 24 and the 23? plus the others i cant remember... 52 bus being at least every 10 mins.

I used to live across the road from asda for over 4 years and i do know.

Stannington eh? tut, spose i'll have to forgive u then.

EDIT: I almost forgot that white bus with ASDA in big green letters on the side... i think that goes there too :P

Originally posted by chez26

When you were a kid there probably wasn't as many cars? (Assuming you're not 12??)

No, you're right, it was all horses and carts in my day. :wave:

So teach them not to open car doors until instructed to do so, or keep the doors locked until you're ready to get them out of the car.

Use reigns, keep them in their prams or generally just keep tight hold of them.

I wish it was that easy!

Most kids cant wait to get out of a car, I do keep the doors locked and open the doors for the kids to get out. I have to open the door first so I can undo the seatbelts. But once in a while, maybe as Im putting shopping in the boot, one of the kids will open the door on their own.

Reigns- child throws a strop because he/ she doesnt like reigns, ends up sitting on floor in the middle of the aisle.

Pram AND a shopping trolley? Hows that work then?!

Tight hold plus empty pram plus shopping trolley?!

I put my 4 year old in the shopping trolley seat and my 7 year old walks with me. There are too many kids running around shops, but thats what kids do, they dont like being controlled. But some parents just let them run off while they shop.

Any parents noticed how people with no kids have all the answers?

No buses go near Asda? I think Ill start parking in the bus stop then if a bus isnt going to use it.

Originally posted by martss
Most kids cant wait to get out of a car, I do keep the doors locked and open the doors for the kids to get out. I have to open the door first so I can undo the seatbelts. But once in a while, maybe as Im putting shopping in the boot, one of the kids will open the door on their own.

Do cars still have child locks?


Reigns- child throws a strop because he/ she doesnt like reigns, ends up sitting on floor in the middle of the aisle.

Teach them to behave properly. I really, really hate parents who let their children run around the shop like some kind of wild animal. Obviously I don't know if your children do this, but you must have seen those that do, and even as a parent, know how annoying it is?

I reckon every car on the road will have child locks, doesnt mean everyone uses them though.

You cant just teach them, it doesnt work like that. You think youve taught them, then one little thing and it will all kick off. Or you could have 20 shopping trips with no trouble.

I dont let my kids run around shops, because I know its annoying, it would annoy me and its dangerous too. Some parents dont care.

Originally posted by martss
I wish it was that easy!

Most kids cant wait to get out of a car, I do keep the doors locked and open the doors for the kids to get out. I have to open the door first so I can undo the seatbelts. But once in a while, maybe as Im putting shopping in the boot, one of the kids will open the door on their own.
I was responding specifically to the comment made along the lines of "kids don't care when they fling open a car door..."
As for your comment in this post, simple solution: insert child in car, fasten child's seat belt, lock car door before putting shopping away.
Originally posted by martss
Reigns- child throws a strop because he/ she doesnt like reigns, ends up sitting on floor in the middle of the aisle.
Oh dear. Teach him to behave better then. He might not like having to hold tightly on to your hand when you walk down a busy street either, but that will protect him from dashing off into the road and getting squished by a car.

If your child darts in front of my trolly while I'm browsing the supermarket aisles and I inadvertantly run over his foot with the trolly wheels because I can't avoid him, that would be my fault? I ask, because I've been in a similar situtation in Tesco, and the parent blamed me because little Tarquin chose to dash in front of me.
Originally posted by martss
Pram AND a shopping trolley? Hows that work then?!
I don't know. I choose not to have kids so don't have to deal with the associated problems. If your child requires a pram, don't take it to the supermarket, or use a basket.
Originally posted by martss
Tight hold plus empty pram plus shopping trolley?!
The choices were either/or. I wouldn't advocate taking an empty pram around the store, but you must do as you see fit.
Originally posted by martss
I put my 4 year old in the shopping trolley seat and my 7 year old walks with me. There are too many kids running around shops, but thats what kids do, they dont like being controlled. But some parents just let them run off while they shop.
Yes, it certainly is what kids do, and they do it because the parents allow them to. I'm sorry that your kids don't like being controlled. Life must be hellish with unruly kids, particulalry when it comes to keeping them safe.
Originally posted by martss
Any parents noticed how people with no kids have all the answers?
No, I don't have answers, I have suggestions. If they don't work, try something else.

i can understand the safety reasons for them being there for young children (i.e "pram bound kids")

as it makes sense to me for a parent to have that little bit of extra space to be able to take the pram down without scraping the adjacent car door.

HOWEVER!

if you kid isn't in a pram you shouldn't be in the space!

If you take your 7 year old kids shopping and think you have a right to park in those spaces then so do i if i take my ma shopping (im 21!)

agree??

Originally posted by martss
Any parents noticed how people with no kids have all the answers?


I've noticed how people with kids seem to have all the problems and expect those of us without kids to accomodate them.

Obviously I'm never going to have kids of my own but I have been to the supermarket with my niece, in a pram, and managed to get home with several bags of shopping, it's not rocket science (you can put the shopping in the bottom of the pram so you don't have to carry it, I figured that out for myself without having to father a child)

Originally posted by martss


Any parents noticed how people with no kids have all the answers?



Anyone without kids noticed how some parents always like to make their problems our problem?

If my child ran in front of your trolley and you ran over his foot, I wouldnt blame you. Its the parents fault for allowing the child to run around in my opinion.

There is never a simple solution with kids, what works one day, might not work the next.

The spaces are for "parent and child", whats the cut off age for a child? 12? 16? Its not 21 is it?

Originally posted by Metallicadam

HOWEVER!

if you kid isn't in a pram you shouldn't be in the space!

agree??

I have been known to borrow my nieces when meadowhall is busy. Lovely well brought up kids, never any bother and i get to park close to the doors.

Am i ashamed of this? Am i eck, u shouldn't have those spaces in the first place... if ur gonna keep insisting u need these spaces i'm gonna start treating u as disabled.

Basically parents shouldn't be allowed anything that could make life just a little bit easier then??:confused:

People shouldn't be judged as everyones circumstances are different. Life's too short to complain about parent and child space allowance in car parks. Is it really that bad a thing?? :(