Inspired by the recent R.E thread I wondered. Were you christened into a faith - your sins absolved etc.etc etc.

Likewise, if you have children did you christen them? Or if you have them in the future would you?

Be interesting to see based on the posts in the other thread.

edit: should have been multiple answer but have asked a mod to fix that PLEASE :D

When I followed Christianity, no, even then, I would not have had my children "sprinkled".

I believed in adult baptism (or at least baptism at an age whwere the child is mature enough to make their own decision about their faith.)

My stepson was not Christened, my grandchildren aren't.

I was christened but chose not to do this for my children as I think they can make up their own minds

i was and i did.

I was christened as a child simply because it was the 'done thing'; neither of my parents are/were overtly religious.

Should I have children, as an atheist I wouldn't have them christened. I would, however, support them in any decision they made in that area once they were old enough to make it.

I believe that we should be free to find religion - or not - ourselves, and not have a belief system foisted upon us by our parents.

I wasn't christened because my dad is an atheist and although my mum was christened, she's not a practising christian. My sister wasn't christened either.

I am a godfather to my second cousin, however. In retrospect I really regret doing it as I now feel like a total hypocrite. Part of the ceremony involved the other godparents and I saying that we'd raise him in the christian faith, and obviously I'm not going to do that. I was only 17 at the time though, so I didn't give it much thought.

I was christened when a baby. My parents aren’t particularly religious (if at all really), I think it was just the done thing. From an ignorance point of view, on my part, can someone explain this? I thought a christening didn't put religious responsibility on the child, it was a committal by the parents to bring the child up in a Christian manner? If I wanted to declare such for myself I'd have to be baptised so nothing was ever forced upon me?

If I have children I think I will have them christened (if my interpretation is incorrect I may rethink that though). I'm not really religious, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with christening. I like the idea of my kids having god parents and would carefully consider who to pick.

From an ignorance point of view, on my part, can someone explain this? I thought a christening didn't put religious responsibility on the child

Baptism is a religious act of purification by water usually associated with admission to membership or fullness of membership of Christianity

(definition)

ergo: responsibility to behave as a christian

its interesting to note that many major religions including Islam include some form of baptism

You can have a ceremony and solemn pledges from chosen life-guides (or whatever they're called) enacted by the Humanists.

More here. (http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=1174)

You can have a ceremony and solemn pledges from chosen life-guides (or whatever they're called) enacted by the Humanists.

More here. (http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=1174)

Ofcourse you can Purdy, but to let down your lifeguides won't land you in purgatory like organised religions ;)

Ofcourse you can Purdy, but to let down your lifeguides won't land you in purgatory like organised religions ;)

Sorry Fox, I should have made clear I was replying to GazE, as it sounded like he liked the idea of mentors and a special ceremony. I was just pointing out that there was a godless equivalent in case he didn't already know. :)

Hmmm, I've just done some googling and it's far from clear. Some websites say that Baptism and Christening are the same, just interchangeable terms. Some state that they do differ, a christening is just a naming ceremony and a baptism claims the child for God. Certainly made me rethink my viewpoint a bit on this.

You should have done a multiple answer poll.

I was, and I would not.

You should have done a multiple answer poll.

I was, and I would not.

I tried to fix it and couldnt, I did report the post to correct the poll but nobody has picked it up yet. :rolleyes:

Sorry Fox, I should have made clear I was replying to GazE, as it sounded like he liked the idea of mentors and a special ceremony. I was just pointing out that there was a godless equivalent in case he didn't already know. :)
Cheers for that, it is the whole mentor thing I like. I'm not opposed to a naming ceremony, I understand this is becoming popular.

It's a fair way off yet anyway, I've not even got a woman who wants me impregnate to her! :hihi:

Hmmm, I've just done some googling and it's far from clear. ...
I'd always assumed that baptism and christening were interchangeable terms, but that could be because I'd never taken the trouble to investigate further.

I understood that during a christening the child is assigned God parents, who undertake to contribute to the child's upbringing as a Christian. That sounds like more than a simply a naming ceremony to me.

One of the options is

"No - I am not christened into any faith"

There's only one faith that does christening, I think the word itself gives it away which one.

I understood that during a christening the child is assigned God parents, who undertake to contribute to the child's upbringing as a Christian. That sounds like more than a simply a naming ceremony to me.
My take on it was that bringing them up in a Christian manner was different than forcing them to be a Christian, hence I thought there was a difference. I must admit it's not something I ever researched thoroughly as it makes no difference to me at this point in time. Wheres Grahame when you need him?

One of the options is

"No - I am not christened into any faith"

There's only one faith that does christening, I think the word itself gives it away which one.

Okay, I agree it should have said baptised :roll: but you know what I meant.

Upon further googling, I think I may be getting confused with Confirmation, which is meant to take place when you are in your teens.

Upon further googling, I think I may be getting confused with Confirmation, which is meant to take place when you are in your teens.

lol - religion is confusing. My mum told me about her confirmation, all dressed in white etc. I have no clue, just glad I don't do religion. which is interesting seeing as my office is in a church :hihi:

Apparently, my parents forgot to have me Christened when I was a tot, so I was baptised when I was nine and hastily found Christianity wasn't my thing. I'd say I'm more of a pagan than anything else, although I don't really subscribe to any set beliefs. A friend reckoned I sounded like a Taoist, but the furthest I got was reading the Tao of Pooh. I think people should make their own minds up about being baptised as opposed to their parents deciding.

I was baptised by my parents into christianity I also had my eldest baptised as a baby , while I was there i saw the baptism of 2 little boys of about 9 years old, it was so lovely and joyful and the little boys had such a lovely time I decided to let my 2nd choose for himself... he is still not baptised into anything.
I wonder how many of us really folllow the faith we were baptised into anyway, I know mine has changed completely.

Hmmm, I've just done some googling and it's far from clear. Some websites say that Baptism and Christening are the same, just interchangeable terms. Some state that they do differ, a christening is just a naming ceremony and a baptism claims the child for God. Certainly made me rethink my viewpoint a bit on this.

Sometimes baptism means total immersion, as John Baptised Jesus in the river Jordan. But this happens when people are old enough to understand and when they ask. These churches don't usually do christening which as you know is for babies. Usually they simply thank God for the new life and ask his blessing on the baby and the parents also.

But Grahame, is it not the belief that we are all born into sin and unless we are baptised in to Christ (in Christianity) we are in big trouble with the big guy?

But Grahame, is it not the belief that we are all born into sin and unless we are baptised in to Christ (in Christianity) we are in big trouble with the big guy?

Well, I’m going to get into a lot of trouble from other Christians, but I think that children are born pure and innocent and the problems start when they are old enough to know right from wrong.

Before I get shot at, what are my reasons? Firstly I believe the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical (like a parable) we know this because it talks about the tree of knowledge and a serpent that talks to Eve, so the story is illustrative.

Now I think the serpent represents our own desires, our greed, our own self will, and all the traits of human nature. I think the point of the story is that Eve was tempted by her own greed or for whatever motive, and it could equally as well have been Adam who was tempted, but the point is they knew they were doing wrong, they were weak and they fell into temptation. Making it even worse was the fact that one led the other one astray and it could have been either one.

Neither do I think the sins of Adam and Eve were handed down to us through all the generations, and I think it is totally wrong to blame women for the actions of Eve, as I say it is an illustrated story. I think sin entered into the world through our own weaknesses compounded by all the other people in the world who were here before us and those who come after us. All in all the world is a pretty rotten place brought about by the wrong doing of all of us. The top and bottom of it is that we and we alone are responsible for our own actions and misdeeds and that one day either in this world (what you sow so shall you reap) or the next if that is what you believe, we will have to answer for our wrong doing.

And to answer your question fox, personally I don't think being christened at birth saves us from the consequences of our sin, I think we have to ask God's forgiveness ourselves and we can only come to God through Jesus Christ who is the mediator between man and God and not a human priest as some would have us believe.

Hmmm interesting. So, lets say my children lead a good and purposeful life but are not baptised as I was into the church. What does your theology say? Do they get in, or not?

myself and my brothers and sister was not christened as my dad is a church of england and mum is a jew, both of them non-practising, they didnt believe that they should force any of us into a religion and that when old enough we should choose our own. One of my brothers and my sister was baptised to get married. I am an atheist and wont be getting my daughter christened, when she is older she will choose her own faith:)

Hmmm interesting. So, lets say my children lead a good and purposeful life but are not baptised as I was into the church. What does your theology say? Do they get in, or not?

Well without quoting a lot of texts I think we have all done wrong, I know I have looked at many an attractive woman and admired her beauty. I know I have said wrong things and I know I told lies when my mother asked me if I had been smoking. The list is endless. The thing is no one is without stain, spot or blemish and all are wrong in Gods sight. The Bible says, "Not by works are you saved but by the grace of God." If we do wrong it is an offense against God and only the one we offend against can forgive us.

Sorry, I have just re-read your question and I don't think I answered it fully. I think that you have to be old enough to ask Gods forgiveness. Does that help answer your question?

Well without quoting a lot of texts I think we have all done wrong, I know I have looked at many an attractive woman and admired her beauty. I know I have said wrong things and I know I told lies when my mother asked me if I had been smoking. The list is endless. The thing is no one is without stain, spot or blemish and all are wrong in Gods sight. The Bible says, "Not by works are you saved but by the grace of God." If we do wrong it is an offense against God and only the one we offend against can forgive us.

If I snort coke off a prostitutes thigh through a forged tenner, and then apologies to the almighty afterwards, am I alright then? I should add, I have been Christened.

**crosses fingers**

lol - religion is confusing. My mum told me about her confirmation, all dressed in white etc. I have no clue, just glad I don't do religion. which is interesting seeing as my office is in a church :hihi:

That's Catholicism, a first Communion. Confirmation is Protestant and you usually take this at around 13 or so after classes (though any age is OK) and after that you can take part in the Communion.

I was, and I was confirmed too because I believed it at the time. But I quickly lost it (faith) and no, it's not something I would choose for a child. Nothing against those who choose to do so though, it's their choice, and it did me no harm, mostly as I was never indoctrinated and was free to choose to join in or not as I grew up.

If I snort coke off a prostitutes thigh through a forged tenner, and then apologies to the almighty afterwards, am I alright then? I should add, I have been Christened.

**crosses fingers**

Matthew 22:37
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

If you love God with all your heart and soul then you won't be going with a prostitute. If you think more of the prostitute than you do of God then the answer is no, you are not alright.

I had my son christened for him and not for me. Do it. It is something special for a child and isn't really about the adults apart from godparents.

Matthew 22:37
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

If this is you, then yes.

If you love (or think more highly of) the prostitute more than God the answer is no.

So, loving the "L-Thy-G", is characterised by "boinking" with a "pro", and taking illegal drugs with her? *scratches head*. nope... been thorugh all the bible, and can't find word-one to back that one up.

Didn't the NT bit of the bible have something about "by thy works shalt thou be known"?

Well, I’m going to get into a lot of trouble from other Christians, but I think that children are born pure and innocent and the problems start when they are old enough to know right from wrong.

Before I get shot at, what are my reasons? Firstly I believe the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical (like a parable) we know this because it talks about the tree of knowledge and a serpent that talks to Eve, so the story is illustrative.

Now I think the serpent represents our own desires, our greed, our own self will, and all the traits of human nature. I think the point of the story is that Eve was tempted by her own greed or for whatever motive, and it could equally as well have been Adam who was tempted, but the point is they knew they were doing wrong, they were weak and they fell into temptation. Making it even worse was the fact that one led the other one astray and it could have been either one.

Neither do I think the sins of Adam and Eve were handed down to us through all the generations, and I think it is totally wrong to blame women for the actions of Eve, as I say it is an illustrated story. I think sin entered into the world through our own weaknesses compounded by all the other people in the world who were here before us and those who come after us. All in all the world is a pretty rotten place brought about by the wrong doing of all of us. The top and bottom of it is that we and we alone are responsible for our own actions and misdeeds and that one day either in this world (what you sow so shall you reap) or the next if that is what you believe, we will have to answer for our wrong doing.

And to answer your question fox, personally I don't think being christened at birth saves us from the consequences of our sin, I think we have to ask God's forgiveness ourselves and we can only come to God through Jesus Christ who is the mediator between man and God and not a human priest as some would have us believe.

how can i get in tune with mr jc

So, loving the "L-Thy-G", is characterised by "boinking" with a "pro", and taking illegal drugs with her? *scratches head*. nope... been thorugh all the bible, and can't find word-one to back that one up.

Didn't the NT bit of the bible have something about "by thy works shalt thou be known"?

Hi PT.
You are right when you say we are known by our deeds which are often far from God. (I have edited my post for clarification)

As you will know in Ephesians 2:8-9 we have: -
For by grace (the grace of God) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Leading a good life cannot cleanse us from our sin. :)

[QUOTE=Maisymouse;2673462]Apparently, my parents forgot to have me Christened when I was a tot, so I was baptised.




Ditto!

[QUOTE=Maisymouse;2673462]Apparently, my parents forgot to have me Christened when I was a tot, so I was baptised.




Ditto!

We didn't get no middle names either did we chicken, oh well.

how can i get in tune with mr jc

Hi Tom, good to talk to you.

There are a couple of useful sites here the first one puts it across in a fun way, but what it says is very true.

http://www.becomingachristian.com/index.html

The second one is more thoughtful and if you decide to commit your life to Christ all you need to do is say the prayer lower down the page.

http://aibi.gospelcom.net/starterkit/gospel1.htm

That is the most important part over with and then comes the harder bit and that is growing in the love and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and all we have to remember is that He is always there for us.

Before long you will be able to say with the Apostle Paul, “The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus…..Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.” (Philippians chapter 4)

Yours in Christ,

Graham.

(And good luck)

.

I say let the children grow up and then they can make their own decision about it.

My great grandma told my mum and my nan that we'd never "come on" unless we were baptised as the other side of our family were. Yet, I've hardly ever had any illnesses, never been in trouble with the police and am fairly healthy and in a good frame of mind. This can also be said for the other side of the family, which basically says to me that baptism is just a ritual that some go through to feel better about themselves, and to get dressed up and have a party.

As we are finding nowadays, religion really has nothing to do with morals and people being "good". It's all about upbringing and social influences.

Assuming the OP was using the term Christening interchangably(sp?) with Babtism, no I wouldn't go through the ceremony with my (future) children.

I wasn't baptised. My 2 sister later chose for themselves to be babtised, as yet, I have not. Having religious family, I understand the significance placed on these ceremonies so would not baptise any children I have - leave it to them to decide.

I think it is because I see how much religious beliefs mean to my family it annoys me when non-followers insist on following these ceremonies that to them must have no significance. For example my g/f is a God-parent to a child apparently, even though she doesn't believe. How does that make sense?

Hi Tom, good to talk to you.

There are a couple of useful sites here the first one puts it across in a fun way, but what it says is very true.

http://www.becomingachristian.com/index.html

The second one is more thoughtful and if you decide to commit your life to Christ all you need to do is say the prayer lower down the page.

http://aibi.gospelcom.net/starterkit/gospel1.htm

That is the most important part over with and then comes the harder bit and that is growing in the love and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and all we have to remember is that He is always there for us.

Before long you will be able to say with the Apostle Paul, “The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus…..Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.” (Philippians chapter 4)

Yours in Christ,

Graham.

(And good luck)

.
The first line of your first link states:-

"There is no dispute that Jesus walked this earth, there is so much historical evidence that proves this."

This is clearly a lie. There is much dispute and no historical evidence of any repute.

The first line of your first link states:-

"There is no dispute that Jesus walked this earth, there is so much historical evidence that proves this."

This is clearly a lie. There is much dispute and no historical evidence of any repute.

Personally, I'm quite happy a chap called Jesus who preached a lot about God probably did exist at some point.

Either way, doesn't seem to me that it's worth arguing about. Surely it's more important wether he was right or just another nut case ranting and raving.

I think the most similar thing Hindu's have is shaving the hair off the baby at a certain age, I think this signifies purification.

We have other small ceremonies before this, like the 6th day after birth.

In my last trip to India, my mother insisted I dip my feet in the river closest to where my family originates from, the water was discusting though :gag:

For anyone who was baptised as a child and now regrets it, it's possible to de-baptise yourself (http://www.secularism.org.uk/debaptism.html?CPID=c96809009d969d47bba1bd6c70ba78 78). It involves writing a letter to your local bishop etc stating that you no longer consider yourself a christian and they have to de-baptise you. You can even get a de-baptisation certificate.

For anyone who was baptised as a child and now regrets it, it's possible to de-baptise yourself (http://www.secularism.org.uk/debaptism.html?CPID=c96809009d969d47bba1bd6c70ba78 78). It involves writing a letter to your local bishop etc stating that you no longer consider yourself a christian and they have to de-baptise you. You can even get a de-baptisation certificate.

Seeing as atheists do not believe in God what are they playing around at? Talk about "God botherers."

Or is there something lurking at the back of their mind that perhaps there is a God and they want to make jolly well sure he knows how they feel?

It is a bit idiotic if you ask me to ask to be separated from something you don’t believe exists. It's proof positive you believe there is something out there after all.

I wasnt and I think that it is up to my children to make up their own mind about religious matters so they were not either.

Seeing as atheists do not believe in God what are they playing around at? Talk about "God botherers."

Or is there something lurking at the back of their mind that perhaps there is a God and they want to make jolly well sure that he knows how they feel?

It is a bit idiotic if you ask me to ask to be separated from something you don’t believe exists. It's proof positive you believe there is something out there after all.
LOL Of course it isn't 'proof positive' that atheists believe in God!

From the web site:
...the concept of baptism is a complete fantasy that has no meaning outside the heads of the religious. Simply renouncing your religion to yourself and to anyone else you think ought to know should be enough. But for those who want their names removed from church records and who do not want to be counted in church statistics...
I am inclined to agree with you that - with the exception of the practicalities of removing oneself from official church statistics - it does seem to be an overly-formal gesture.

I was christened, but neither of my parents are particuarly religious. My dad is catholic but not a practising catholic at all, and my mum is CoE, but again, not practising. I think they christened me because it seems like the done thing really. I wouldn't christen my kids if I had them because I don't believe in anything, but if they wanted to be christened when they were older it'd be up to them.

Seeing as atheists do not believe in God what are they playing around at? Talk about "God botherers."

Or is there something lurking at the back of their mind that perhaps there is a God and they want to make jolly well sure he knows how they feel?

It is a bit idiotic if you ask me to ask to be separated from something you don’t believe exists. It's proof positive you believe there is something out there after all.

More likely this reverse-baptism is a cunning money making scheme to prise some cash out the devout atheist?

More likely this reverse-baptism is a cunning money making scheme to prise some cash out the devout atheist?

Both replies are good Hecate as well. I think it is funny. :D

And they are so serious about it as well.

I was christened as a child and have had all 3 of my children christened.
difference between christening and baptism - christening is done with a blessing and the mark of a cross is made on the persons head with water.
baptism is the total immersion in water.
And yes I have also been baptised, which was my choice as an adult

Seeing as atheists do not believe in God what are they playing around at? Talk about "God botherers."

Or is there something lurking at the back of their mind that perhaps there is a God and they want to make jolly well sure he knows how they feel?

It is a bit idiotic if you ask me to ask to be separated from something you don’t believe exists. It's proof positive you believe there is something out there after all.

By that same token then, you shouldn't need to be baptised in later life because, if you've pledged your life to that route, then surely God would know.

By separating yourself from Atheists, it's proof positive that you're scared there isn't anything out there afterall!

By that same token then, you shouldn't need to be baptised in later life because, if you've pledged your life to that route, then surely God would know.

By separating yourself from Atheists, it's proof positive that you're scared there isn't anything out there afterall!

I sometimes wish that like you can take a piece of metal and hammer it into shape, that you could do the same with people. But perhaps that is how God works in our lives? Either way it is a tough experience. :)

What happened with me leviathan is that obviously as babies we know nothing, then as we grow up we learn and I was fortunate that Christianity was something I learnt about and I learnt about it in the same way as you learn reading and writing etc. it was just something you did. So when I got to about 12 years of age I decided I wanted to be saved which meant I asked God to forgive my wrongdoing and to come and live in my heart. It was a very simple prayer. Then as I got older I grew in the Christian life and I wanted to get baptized in water and at the front of the church was a baptismal, so the next time there was a baptismal service I asked if I could go through the waters, and all it means is that you are making a public declaration in front of the congregation that you are committing your life to him and making a public gesture whereby you enter the water a sinful person, you are totally immersed, and when you come out the other side your sins have been washed away in the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed on Calvary’s cross for each and every one of us. The significant fact is that you have made a personal commitment to serve the Lord.

Perhaps other Christians, who I thank God for would like to add their testimonies.

If by some kind of miracle I ever get blessed with a kid, yes I will have it Christened.. I'll be made an Uncle in January courtesy of my Brother and my sister in law, but our Clare's a Catholic so we all know it won't be Christened as such, not into teh Christian faith anyway.

I sometimes wish that like you can take a piece of metal and hammer it into shape, that you could do the same with people. But perhaps that is how God works in our lives? Either way it is a tough experience. :)

What happened with me leviathan is that obviously as babies we know nothing, then as we grow up we learn and I was fortunate that Christianity was something I learnt about and I learnt about it in the same way as you learn reading and writing etc. it was just something you did. So when I got to about 12 years of age I decided I wanted to be saved which meant I asked God to forgive my wrongdoing and to come and live in my heart. It was a very simple prayer. Then as I got older I grew in the Christian life and I wanted to get baptized in water and at the front of the church was a baptismal, so the next time there was a baptismal service I asked if I could go through the waters, and all it means is that you are making a public declaration in front of the congregation that you are committing your life to him and making a public gesture whereby you enter the water a sinful person, you are totally immersed, and when you come out the other side your sins have been washed away in the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed on Calvary’s cross for each and every one of us. The significant fact is that you have made a personal commitment to serve the Lord.

Perhaps other Christians, who I thank God for would like to add their testimonies.

And, again, by the same token, by being de-baptized, these people are saying they don't believe any of the mumbo-jumbo that has been forced on to them by their parents. They're making the same declaration that you are, Grahame, just for the other side.

By me classing myself as a Satanist, I've made a personal commitment to myself to be the best human being I can be. Much the same way that you have made your pledge to your invisible friend. The difference being, Grahame, I'm not hypocritical with my views.

The vicar got too close to the font and stubbed his toe while I was being christened.
Thus my full name is actually Basil Ooh Me Foot! Rathbon.....

And, again, by the same token, by being de-baptized, these people are saying they don't believe any of the mumbo-jumbo that has been forced on to them by their parents. They're making the same declaration that you are, Grahame, just for the other side.

By me classing myself as a Satanist, I've made a personal commitment to myself to be the best human being I can be. Much the same way that you have made your pledge to your invisible friend. The difference being, Grahame, I'm not hypocritical with my views.

Good luck leviathan. :)

Good luck leviathan. :)

It's not luck that will get me through, it's self-belief.

Luck is something people use as a way of justifying decisions they make. Much like prayer.

I know what I'm capable of as a human being. I don't need to ask some invisible force for help.

I was christened as a child and have had all 3 of my children christened.
difference between christening and baptism - christening is done with a blessing and the mark of a cross is made on the persons head with water.
baptism is the total immersion in water.
And yes I have also been baptised, which was my choice as an adult

So that's the difference in ceremonies (thankyou for clarifying) but does they actually mean any difference in significance?

Yes I was christened as a child.

I was also christened as a child.
Later, round the age of 12, during confirmation classes, we were told by the vicar that a child "could not enter the kingdom of heaven" unless they'd undergone this ritual. :huh: I failed to take religion seriously after that.
No we didn't have our 2 kids christened.

I am not christened. My Dad was a proper angry athiest, socialist etc when I was younger so he refused.

My kids are not either but that is not because of religion. I just did not even think about it.

The vicar got too close to the font and stubbed his toe while I was being christened.
Thus my full name is actually Basil Ooh Me Foot! Rathbon.....

LMAO! Funniest post all day! :lol:

I was christened, as were my sons and grandchildren. None of us are regular churchgoers, except for Christmas, weddings and funerals. I do not believe in rituals though I believe in a divine force who is one heck of an engineer who has little time for personal prayer.
But the one real achievement of religion is the ten commandments. Without these guides the world would be in even worse shape than it already is.

I was christened, as were my sons and grandchildren. None of us are regular churchgoers, except for Christmas, weddings and funerals. I do not believe in rituals though I believe in a divine force who is one heck of an engineer who has little time for personal prayer.
But the one real achievement of religion is the ten commandments. Without these guides the world would be in even worse shape than it already is.

Yet, the more devout the follower, the less they pay attention to these rules. The 10 Commandments are nothing but just pure common sense. The only reason they're forced on the world is because they're from a "religious" source.

If by some kind of miracle I ever get blessed with a kid, yes I will have it Christened.. I'll be made an Uncle in January courtesy of my Brother and my sister in law, but our Clare's a Catholic so we all know it won't be Christened as such, not into teh Christian faith anyway.

Congratulations on your forthcoming unclehood! As a point of interest, Catholics are Christians, so why wouldn't your sister in law have her child Christened?

No i wasn't christened nor were my brothers.

I never had my son christened either. No reason to i'm not a christian if he wants to he can anytime he wants.

I had both my children baptised recently, which didn't involve total immersion. I did it to say thanks to God for my children publicly amongst friends and family and as a way of welcoming them into the world. I don't believe you have to be baptised to believe in God nor do I believe that if you are baptised this automatically makes you religious. It's just symbolic, it's what you feel that matters.

I was Christenned, and later on Confirmed. Being an atheist now, I wouldn't do this to my children.

The vicar got too close to the font and stubbed his toe while I was being christened.
Thus my full name is actually Basil Ooh Me Foot! Rathbon.....

*envisages the vicar as looking something like Noakesie, off Blue Peter circa 1968/9*

not reading 70 posts but how can i vote im christened (IM NOT RELIGES OR MY MOTHER & FARTHER BUT I GOT IT) but i havent christened my son littel more thort on choseses for the vote or vote 2 time would have been nice

Yet, the more devout the follower, the less they pay attention to these rules. The 10 Commandments are nothing but just pure common sense. The only reason they're forced on the world is because they're from a "religious" source.I fully agree with you.

I had both my children baptised recently, which didn't involve total immersion. I did it to say thanks to God for my children publicly amongst friends and family and as a way of welcoming them into the world. I don't believe you have to be baptised to believe in God nor do I believe that if you are baptised this automatically makes you religious. It's just symbolic, it's what you feel that matters.

As part of the christening do you not promise to bring your child up as a good christian?

As part of the christening do you not promise to bring your child up as a good christian?

This is the main problem with religion, it's open to interpretation. 50 people could read the Bible and you'll hear 50 different explanations of what's in there depending on that person's frame of mind.

It's quite interesting the amount of people who will offer opinions on threads like this, who call themselves "Christian" or whatever, yet will have slightly different views from others within their section of that religion. They can't all be right.

I personally cannot see the point in offering an opinion that forcing religion on an unassuming being, your child, is in anyway thanking your "God" for you having them. The animal kingdom has been running for thousands of years, before God was invented. Why offer thanks to an imaginary being for something that's been happening for hundreds of thousands of years before humans came along?

Neither me or my sister were christened. I've found out in adulthood that my dad has strong feelings against religion, but I can't ever recall religion being discussed at home, even in a negative way. I was never told "there's no god", in a way my upbringing was (with the exception of school) completely secular. However I've also ended up with the same strong feelings against religion that my dad has. He was brought up as CoE, sent to Sunday school, had to go to church etc - he said he hated having it rammed down his throat. He felt he could only really break free of it once his dad died (interestingly I found out that's also the point my nannan converted to Catholicism - i wonder if Grandad was holding her back as well?). My mum's family are not particularly religious, but I think she was christened, as it was the norm back then.

I wouldn't have my children christened at all. Thankfully I wouldn't have any pressure to do so. A friend of mine felt she had to get her son done because her mum wanted him to use the family christening gown :rolleyes:

As part of the christening do you not promise to bring your child up as a good christian?

Perhaps we should get a copy of the baptism service and we can talk about its interpretation.

Both my husband and I were christened, personally I think it was because it was the done thing. Neither of our children have been christened. For me I dont think its necessary and hubby thinks they should be able to decide for themselves.

If I snort coke off a prostitutes thigh through a forged tenner, and then apologies to the almighty afterwards, am I alright then? I should add, I have been Christened.

**crosses fingers**

Well I believe that God is all loving, always and in loving and believing in God you aim to be like that (I also think that if you believe in a religion too much rather than god you can lose sight of god).
Re the snorting coke and prostitute thing, you'd have to ask yourself "is that demonstrating my love to others?" "is that demonstrating love to myself?"
I don't see it as a case of God judging or punishing- but your "punishment" would be self-fulfilled in a way, through lack of genuine happiness and momentary highs followed by lows rather than lasting satisfaction.
Like Grahame I believe we are born good but also that we could achieve heaven on earth, if we all just loved each other a bit more

i was christened,my kids wernt,i still feel im a christian ,ive no criminal record,i help my neighbours,basically i follow the ten commandments and i often call in a church if im out walking in a new place and come accross one,i respect what a church stands for but i dont need to hear a priest telling me about life and how to live it to feel contented

I was Christened at two weeks old as my mum's Roman Catholic. My earliest memories of Chruch is noticing a mouse hole in it and wondering where the mousy was! I alos had my first communion and confirmation as I got older. Not sure what I would do if I have kids, it would depend where I was at the time I think and what my Husband believed. Right now I am a bit confused about God and religion.:roll:

i was christened,my kids wernt,i still feel im a christian ,ive no criminal record,i help my neighbours,basically i follow the ten commandments and i often call in a church if im out walking in a new place and come accross one,i respect what a church stands for but i dont need to hear a priest telling me about life and how to live it to feel contented

That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? You don't want the guidance of a priest, yet you submit to the rules of the 10 Commandments? And, I bet, you break many of these rules on a daily basis. If you don't then you're a very strange human being.

I was Christened at two weeks old as my mum's Roman Catholic. My earliest memories of Chruch is noticing a mouse hole in it and wondering where the mousy was! I alos had my first communion and confirmation as I got older. Not sure what I would do if I have kids, it would depend where I was at the time I think and what my Husband believed. Right now I am a bit confused about God and religion.:roll:

Let me ask you this about your confusion:

If there was a God, don't you think you'd believe in Him already and not having to try and make your mind up?

That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? You don't want the guidance of a priest, yet you submit to the rules of the 10 Commandments? And, I bet, you break many of these rules on a daily basis. If you don't then you're a very strange human being.

I bet most people don't break all those 'rules' on a daily basis as they're mostly ingrained in society's moral code now.

What are they? Do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honour your parents - those three alone most people (you'd hope!) keep every day. Others are now outdated like observing the Sabbath or not blaspheming (this is one I indulge in every few minutes...).

I bet most people don't break all those 'rules' on a daily basis as they're mostly ingrained in society's moral code now.

What are they? Do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honour your parents - those three alone most people (you'd hope!) keep every day. Others are now outdated like observing the Sabbath or not blaspheming (this is one I indulge in every few minutes...).

A couple of the 10 Commandments:

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

How many "Christians" do you know or see with a crucufix around their necks or hung on their living room wall or next to their beds?

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

cov·et [ kúvvət ]

verb

Definition:

1. transitive and intransitive verb want somebody else's property: to have a strong desire to possess something that belongs to somebody else
2. transitive verb yearn to have: to want to have something very much

You show me a Christian that's never wanted what someone else has and I will bow down and apologise!

That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? You don't want the guidance of a priest, yet you submit to the rules of the 10 Commandments? And, I bet, you break many of these rules on a daily basis. If you don't then you're a very strange human being.
name one i could have broken..........my parents are dead,i dont covet,i dont steal,the last time i killed someone was when i was in the army, i cant think off hand where ive broken one ,give us a clue

Let me ask you this about your confusion:

If there was a God, don't you think you'd believe in Him already and not having to try and make your mind up?

Oh now I am even more confused! To be honest I try not to think about whether there is a God or not as can't get a concrete answer and I like concrete answers, anyway I wonder if that mouse hole is still in that old Church?!:D

A couple of the 10 Commandments:

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

How many "Christians" do you know or see with a crucufix around their necks or hung on their living room wall or next to their beds?
!

That one always puzzles me! It doesn't forbid a plain cross, but it obviously does forbid a proper crucifix as those have a 'graven image' of Jesus on them. Plus what about Icons and all the Mary worship?

I wonder if it has any historic links to Islam, which also forbids 'graven images'?

That one always puzzles me! It doesn't forbid a plain cross, but it obviously does forbid a proper crucifix as those have a 'graven image' of Jesus on them. Plus what about Icons and all the Mary worship?

I wonder if it has any historic links to Islam, which also forbids 'graven images'?

I think you will find that when the Bible talks about "images" "graven images" or "idols" it is talking about idol worship and bowing down to them and worshiping them.

Not the same thing. :)

That one always puzzles me! It doesn't forbid a plain cross, but it obviously does forbid a proper crucifix as those have a 'graven image' of Jesus on them. Plus what about Icons and all the Mary worship?

just to comment on that one, mathom:- there is no rule in christianity which says you must wear a cross, whether it has a "jesus" on it or not.


I wonder if it has any historic links to Islam, which also forbids 'graven images'?

If you think about it, Abraham was the "father" of all three of the major monotheistic religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) all three of which have the same "laws" encapsulated within them, about only worshipping God, and God alone, not worshipping Idols, not money, power, status, etc. So it's not that surprising that the three faiths have this commonality of belief.

In Islam it's the creed "La Illah Illa Allah":- there is no God but God, and only he is worthy of worship.

In Judaism, the creed is the "shema":- which begins "Shema Isra-el" or "hear, O- israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, all of thy soul, and all of thy strength..", the same creed of Christianity.

There is no connection between Islam and Christianity.

Let me ask you this about your confusion:

If there was a God, don't you think you'd believe in Him already and not having to try and make your mind up?

I think that's a good idea in theory, but we are told so many different conficting things about what God is like, by believers and atheists, no wonder it's confusing! I think if that if you think something might be there kind of by your side, then just think about that and let your instincts run freely without listening to everything others have told you about what God is like and without guilt.

There is no connection between Islam and Christianity.

Not quite sure how you can say that, Grahame. There are many connections.

There is no connection between Islam and Christianity.

Islam shares the prophets Abraham, Moses and Christ with Christianity.... most people would concede this amounts to a connection.

Not quite sure how you can say that, Grahame. There are many connections.

This is something I already had typed up.

King Darius was the King of the Medes and Persians. As you know Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians saying that Allah is the same god as Jehovah he is not. If you remember King Darius put Daniel in the Lions den because Daniel did not worship the same God as the Medes and Persians. The next day Daniel was unharmed and King Darius made this proclamation to all people of every nation and race in the world:

"Greetings to all of you! I command everyone in my kingdom to worship and honour the God of Daniel. He is the living God, the one who lives forever. His power and his kingdom will never end. He rescues people and sets them free by working great miracles. Daniel's God has rescued him from the power of the lions." All went well for Daniel while Darius was king, and even when Cyrus the Persian ruled."

The important thing to notice here is that Persia is modern day Iran and from thousands of years ago we have the confirmation echoing down through the centuries that the religion of Iran is not the same as the religion of the Jews and Christians.

If the truth were known Islam is a pagan religion that worships the moon god. And then they say the two religions are the same.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm

This is something I already had typed up.

King Darius was the King of the Medes and Persians. As you know Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians saying that Allah is the same god as Jehovah. If you remember King Darius put Daniel in the Lions den because Daniel did not worship the same God as the Medes and Persians. The next day Daniel was unharmed and King Darius made this proclamation to all people of every nation and race in the world:

"Greetings to all of you! I command everyone in my kingdom to worship and honour the God of Daniel. He is the living God, the one who lives forever. His power and his kingdom will never end. He rescues people and sets them free by working great miracles. Daniel's God has rescued him from the power of the lions." All went well for Daniel while Darius was king, and even when Cyrus the Persian ruled."

The important thing to notice here is that Persia is modern day Iran and from thousands of years ago we have the confirmation echoing down through the centuries that the religion of Iran is not the same as the religion of the Jews and Christians.

If the truth were known Islam is a pagan religion that worships the moon god. And then they say the two religions are the same.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm

Do you mean a different God exists for Muslims?

Yes. Muslims worship the pagan moon god called Allah.

I'm confused. Do you believe there is a pagan moon god called Allah?
Also do you think the prophet Jesus they have is different to the Christian Jesus, even though the quran reports many of the same stories as the Bible about Jesus?

There is no connection between Islam and Christianity.

so the Abraham and his two sons mentioned in the book of Genesis are a different Abraham and his two sons from the Qur'an?

if that is so, then your bible has to be a lie.

I've already explained the links between the two religions, and their common root, through abraham, in a previous thread, and a post earlier in this thread.

Do you mean a different God exists for Muslims?

no, saff, Ell-ell (the hebrew word for God)/ Jaweh, the god of Judaism and Christianity is the same creator- god as Allah,which is simply the arabic word for God.

Yes. Muslims worship the pagan moon god called Allah.

I've already explained the links between the two religions, and their common root, through abraham, in a previous thread, and a post earlier in this thread.

Please do not insult Islam, and God ,by referring to him in this derisory way.

I'm confused. Do you believe there is a pagan moon god called Allah?
Also do you think the prophet Jesus they have is different to the Christian Jesus, even though the quran reports many of the same stories as the Bible about Jesus?

the Jesus ("Isa", in Arabic) of the Quran is the same Jesus as the Jesus of the bible.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that, in Islam, he is considered a highly revered Prophet of God, where the Christians consider him to "be" God.

In Islam the prophets of the old testament, like Moses (Musa) David (Daoud) Elijah (Ilyas) Adam (Adham) etc also correspond, too, and are honoured as such.

Grahame erroneously persists in believing, and preaching that Allah is a moon-god, when, as I have already explained thoroughly, he is the same god in all three major monotheistic religions.

Allah is not a moon god. Islam uses a lunar calendaaar, sure, but that doesn't mean he is a moon-god

no, saff, Ell-ell (the hebrew word for God)/ Jaweh, the god of Judaism and Christianity is the same creator- god as Allah,which is simply the arabic word for God.

I was asking for Grahame's opinion. I don't see how someone can say they believe in one God but then mention another. Surely if another exists then this idea needs exploring too.
Personally I believe in God and that religions are ways of trying to understand him/her/it. To say one religion is right and others are wrong immediately negates the loving others thing. It also assumes that God only loves a small proportion of the population- how can this be so if he created everything?

I'm confused. Do you believe there is a pagan moon god called Allah?
Also do you think the prophet Jesus they have is different to the Christian Jesus, even though the quran reports many of the same stories as the Bible about Jesus?

I am looking for my notes which I seem to have misplaced but have a look here for starters.

http://www.google.com/search?q=pagan+moon+god+allah&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH

Jesus for the Muslims is the same Jesus we Christians worship and he is the very foundation of Christianity. Muslims base their religion on Muhammad who was only an ordinary man. We believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead and he lives today at the right hand of God. For Muslims, their prophet Muhammad is dead and you can go and see his tomb. Christians worship a living God.

To add, the only difference between the prophets of the OT and the Qur'an, is the names:- If you look at the names after the "english" version of the name, in my previous post.

It's like the names "James" (english) and Jacques in french, or Diego in Spanish, or Giacomo in italian,
or "Michael" (english) and Michel (french) Miguel( spanish) John (english) Jean (french) Gian (italian)

we have Jacob in english, Yaqoub in arabic/ hebrew,

or Joseph (english) Giuseppe (italian) Yusif (arabic)

I've already explained the links between the two religions, and their common root, through abraham, in a previous thread, and a post earlier in this thread.

Please do not insult Islam, and God ,by referring to him in this derisory way.

Can God be insulted?

I know about the Abrahamic link of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, I'm wondering what may have come before them (presuming Judaism is the one with the longest history) which was a 'common root'.

Hmmm, calling Islam 'Pagan'...well according to a dictionary definition, any religion which is NOT Christianity is a Pagan religion so strictly speaking, it is not an insult. However I am always concerned when Christians use it that way as I've known more than a few (Americans) use it in a derogatory sense.

so the Abraham and his two sons mentioned in the book of Genesis are a different Abraham and his two sons from the Qur'an?

if that is so, then your bible has to be a lie.

I've already explained the links between the two religions, and their common root, through abraham, in a previous thread, and a post earlier in this thread.

no one can dispute the facts given here, the sons of Abraham are supposed to have founded both religions simultaneously.

I am looking for my notes which I seem to have misplaced but have a look here for starters

http://www.google.com/search?q=pagan+moon+god+allah&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH

is this another one of those biased and unbalanced sites you usually link us to, grahame?

Jesus for the Muslims is the same Jesus we Christians worship and he is the very foundation of Christianity. Muslims base their religion on Muhammad who was only an ordinary man. We believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead and he lives today at the right hand of God.

Muslims do not "base their religion on Muhammed", and it's actually quite insulting to suggest that they do.

Muhammed (PBUH) is the chief and last prophet of God, in Islam. He recieved the Qur'an scriptures, he is not the focus of worship. The Muslim does not use Muhammed as the focus of their faith, God is the focus.

For Muslims, their prophet Muhammad is dead and you can go and see his tomb.

as are the prophets of christianity, such as Abraham Noah, David, Adam, Zacharias, Isaiah etc.

I am looking for my notes which I seem to have misplaced but have a look here for starters.

http://www.google.com/search?q=pagan+moon+god+allah&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH

Jesus for the Muslims is the same Jesus we Christians worship and he is the very foundation of Christianity. Muslims base their religion on Muhammad who was only an ordinary man. We believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead and he lives today at the right hand of God. For Muslims, their prophet Muhammad is dead and you can go and see his tomb. Christians worship a living God.

Have you thought about what "living today at the right hand of god" actually means? What do you think?
Do you think that because somebody's flesh was put in a tomb that they didn't have a connection with God? Do you have a connection with God?

(snip)The important thing to notice here is that Persia is modern day Iran and from thousands of years ago we have the confirmation echoing down through the centuries that the religion of Iran is not the same as the religion of the Jews and Christians.

If the truth were known Islam is a pagan religion that worships the moon god. And then they say the two religions are the same.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm

more spin and totally blinkered, intolerant, and biased sites from you grahame.

That ridiculous premise, that "pagans worshipped in country X three thousand years ago, therefore the God worshipped there today has to be an idol/ moon god" is claptrap.

By that token,then, I if I were idiotic enough, could declare, quite confidently, that, seeing as "druid" was the pagan religion followed three thousand years ago on this island of ours, Q-E-D, the Church of England is a druidic cult. Which is quite obviously utter row-locks.

Perhaps we should get a copy of the baptism service and we can talk about its interpretation.

I attended a christening recently, and I'm pretty sure I heard the priest(ess) talking about the promise the parents were making to bring the child up as a christian and as part of their church community.
It seemed quite clear that the child was going to be given no objective choice in the matter and until it was much older probably wouldn't even understand that there could have been a choice.

I know about the Abrahamic link of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, I'm wondering what may have come before them (presuming Judaism is the one with the longest history) which was a 'common root'.

Hmmm, calling Islam 'Pagan'...well according to a dictionary definition, any religion which is NOT Christianity is a Pagan religion so strictly speaking, it is not an insult. However I am always concerned when Christians use it that way as I've known more than a few (Americans) use it in a derogatory sense.

The common definitions of pagan;

# heathen: a person who does not acknowledge your god
# a person who follows a polytheistic or pre-Christian religion (not a Christian or Muslim or Jew)
# heathen: not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam
# hedonist: someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures

So Muslims can not correctly be called Pagans, at least not by Christians.

can I also point out that the claptrap site

( http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm )that Grahame links to, in that post, as being the "fount of all truth and wisdom" and an accurate reference-work also has this
http://www.reformation.org/vatican-and-islam.html on the site,

which suggests that the vatican worship obelisks (from "Similarities between Islam and the Vatican!!"
There are many similarities between Islam and the Vatican:

Pope John Paul II kisses the Koran—the Moslem "holy" Book— during a meeting with Arab leaders at the Vatican.
There are so many similarities between the religion of Mohammad and the Vatican that we can only name a few for now.

Both religions believe in using FORCE to spread their version of the one true god to the unbelievers.

Both religions believe in a union with the State or of using the police powers of the State to compel obedience to their tenets.

Both religions have a "holy" shrine in which the believers are taught to look to as their headquarters e.g. Mecca and the Vatican.


Since Islam and the Vatican have so many similarities we don't have to look very far to find their common origin as long as we know a little about the Bible and history!!

as I said, your links are claptrap, I'm afraid, and untrustworthy claptrap at that.

I know about the Abrahamic link of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, I'm wondering what may have come before them (presuming Judaism is the one with the longest history) which was a 'common root'.

Hmmm, calling Islam 'Pagan'...well according to a dictionary definition, any religion which is NOT Christianity is a Pagan religion so strictly speaking, it is not an insult. However I am always concerned when Christians use it that way as I've known more than a few (Americans) use it in a derogatory sense.

There is an interesting argument that there are many parallels between the life of Osiris/Horus and Christ.

See list here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

But many of the references are dubious and this article criticises much of the explanations of Horus's life (found from link on page above)
http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

There are still some interesting correlations and there are some further articles of interest here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

Have you thought about what "living today at the right hand of god" actually means? What do you think?
Do you think that because somebody's flesh was put in a tomb that they didn't have a connection with God? Do you have a connection with God?

When someone dies that is it, end of story, unless you believe in the resurrection, which hasn't happened yet and that is the difference between Muhammad and Jesus.

This thread is not about the differences between religions. It's about baptism and whether you would baptise a child.

Anyone who insists on turning this into yet another rant for or against any religion must expect for their posts to disappear and for the moderating team to get a bit hacked off at the work created removing them.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that, in Islam, he is considered a highly revered Prophet of God, where the Christians consider him to "be" God.

Not the son of God? Have I missed something here???

I attended a christening recently, and I'm pretty sure I heard the priest(ess) talking about the promise the parents were making to bring the child up as a christian and as part of their church community.
It seemed quite clear that the child was going to be given no objective choice in the matter and until it was much older probably wouldn't even understand that there could have been a choice.

OK, my children were baptised in an anglican church. The main points of the baptism are here (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/baptismconfirm/sectionb.html)
I don't feel I went against any of these points.
I will bring my children up with as much love as possible and will try to ensure that they always feel loved and love others and everything around them. When they are old enough to think about it I will tell them God loves them and everyone because I sincerely believe that this is true and good.

There is an interesting table on differing interpretations and meanings for baptism in Christianity here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Background_in_Jewish_ritual). (about a quarter of the way down the page)

Quakers for example don't practice baptism at all. The C of E encorporates two differing views on the meaning of baptism depending on whether you are low church or high church.

I am so proud to be above all this crap. Bickering, shrill, petty, infantile nonsense. Why not bring your child up as a balanced human with genuine freedom of conscience, and freedom of choice? It's just beyond some people's comprehension.

OK, my children were baptised in an anglican church. The main points of the baptism are here (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/baptismconfirm/sectionb.html)
I don't feel I went against any of these points.
I will bring my children up with as much love as possible and will try to ensure that they always feel loved and love others and everything around them. When they are old enough to think about it I will tell them God loves them and everyone because I sincerely believe that this is true and good.

The renunciation of the devil and all that is evil and a declaration of turning to Christ, made either by the candidates for baptism or, in the case of infants, by someone speaking on their behalf.

A declaration of Christian faith based on the ancient statement of Christian belief called the ‘Apostles’ Creed’, made either by the candidates or by the parents and/or Godparents.

A declaration of what it means to live as a baptised follower of Jesus Christ or, in the case of infants, a declaration of the responsibility of parents and Godparents to bring them up to follow Christ.

So like I said, you're committing your child to a religion, it will have little to no choice in the matter unless it happens to grow up very strong willed and is willing to disregard the brain washing from early on in it's life.

I am so proud to be above all this crap. Bickering, shrill, petty, infantile nonsense. Why not bring your child up as a balanced human with genuine freedom of conscience, and freedom of choice? It's just beyond some people's comprehension.

you influence your children with your views from the moment they are born consciously or unconsciously, through speech and actions,be it religious beliefs non religious beliefs, poilitical views, diet, reading material or lack of it, football, friendships, attitudes, travel etc etc. it's impossible to be impartial. your 'balanced' is different to anothers

The renunciation of the devil and all that is evil and a declaration of turning to Christ, made either by the candidates for baptism or, in the case of infants, by someone speaking on their behalf.

A declaration of Christian faith based on the ancient statement of Christian belief called the ‘Apostles’ Creed’, made either by the candidates or by the parents and/or Godparents.

A declaration of what it means to live as a baptised follower of Jesus Christ or, in the case of infants, a declaration of the responsibility of parents and Godparents to bring them up to follow Christ.

So like I said, you're committing your child to a religion, it will have little to no choice in the matter unless it happens to grow up very strong willed and is willing to disregard the brain washing from early on in it's life.

No you're imposing your interpretation onto me. Your ideas about the devil, yours about the church, yours about Christ, whether you subscribe to them or not.
What is the devil? What is church? Who/what is Christ?
Answer those before you accuse me of anything.
I don't follow what the last vicar told me was true about God. How can I when they say different things?
As for brainwashing- what do you mean exactly?

So that's the difference in ceremonies (thankyou for clarifying) but does they actually mean any difference in significance?
the only real significance is that baptism is a decision made by an adult to commit to a particular faith. christening is a decision made by a parent. I had my children christened because I believed it was the right thing to do, should anything happen to me I know that their Godparents would step up and take over.

I was christened as a baby and have had both my children christened as well.

the only real significance is that baptism is a decision made by an adult to commit to a particular faith. christening is a decision made by a parent. I had my children christened because I believed it was the right thing to do, should anything happen to me I know that their Godparents would step up and take over.

I agree with you entirely.

the only real significance is that baptism is a decision made by an adult to commit to a particular faith. christening is a decision made by a parent. I had my children christened because I believed it was the right thing to do, should anything happen to me I know that their Godparents would step up and take over.

well my children were baptised to say thanks to God publicly and for the opportunity for people to think happy thoughts (prayers) for them at the same time. I did it at church because that's where I've been most, but I didn't do it to say"I believe in Christianity only for my children" because I also believe in other religions too and fully accept that many aspects of all religions are cultural and have been used to enforce morality. I think all religions are manifestations of God's word and prophets, subject to cultural/human understanding.

The way it comes across to me is as a hidden message of: "If I have my child christened, it'll grow up with better morals and manners than those children who aren't".

From what I've seen and experienced, as with a lot of religion and people of "faith", the chances of these children growing up with decent morals is 50/50. In my most humble of opinions, if a child is not christened, that doesn't automatically mean that they will grow in to a yob or be any less of a person than a child who is shown down the route of "righteousness". Look at Hitler; he was a "God-fearing" man.

I wasn't christened, nor have I ever been to Sunday school or any kind of church service through choice and I'd like to think I'm a fine, upstanding individual who has a set of morals and self-beliefs that my family are proud of. Yet, as people like Grahame would have you believe, because I don't believe in this imaginary being, I'm going to Hell because a priest didn't sprinkle water on my face.

Christening/baptism doesn't have an effect on how a child will turn out. To me, it's a way of shifting the blame from the parents if their child doesn't grow up how they desired. It's down to the parents to bring up their child, not a "divine being".

The way it comes across to me is as a hidden message of: "If I have my child christened, it'll grow up with better morals and manners than those children who aren't".

From what I've seen and experienced, as with a lot of religion and people of "faith", the chances of these children growing up with decent morals is 50/50. In my most humble of opinions, if a child is not christened, that doesn't automatically mean that they will grow in to a yob or be any less of a person than a child who is shown down the route of "righteousness". Look at Hitler; he was a "God-fearing" man.

I wasn't christened, nor have I ever been to Sunday school or any kind of church service through choice and I'd like to think I'm a fine, upstanding individual who has a set of morals and self-beliefs that my family are proud of. Yet, as people like Grahame would have you believe, because I don't believe in this imaginary being, I'm going to Hell because a priest didn't sprinkle water on my face.

Christening/baptism doesn't have an effect on how a child will turn out. To me, it's a way of shifting the blame from the parents if their child doesn't grow up how they desired. It's down to the parents to bring up their child, not a "divine being".

But can you also concede that there are also some people who get their children christened not as a way of judging other people or making any moral statement at all?But as a joyful happy ceremony free from any imagined or real undertones.
I agree with you about the parents' influence on the children but have no idea what you mean about "shifting blame", surely parents following a faith wouldn't want to blame God for their children growing up differently to the way they desired because this would go against their religion?

But can you also concede that there are also some people who get their children christened not as a way of judging other people or making any moral statement at all?But as a joyful happy ceremony free from any imagined or real undertones.
I agree with you about the parents' influence on the children but have no idea what you mean about "shifting blame", surely parents following a faith wouldn't want to blame God for their children growing up differently to the way they desired because this would go against their religion?

It doesn't actually. Blame is just another word for "Gods Will". Why do you believe in God? Because you want someone to protect you and yours. You feel that if you pray to God, and ask Him to spare you, he will. If he doesn't, you blame Him and say it's His will. By having them Christened, you're hoping that God is looking favourably on your family because you are showing your devotion to His cause, in the hope that he won't smite you down.

It doesn't actually. Blame is just another word for "Gods Will". Why do you believe in God? Because you want someone to protect you and yours. You feel that if you pray to God, and ask Him to spare you, he will. If he doesn't, you blame Him and say it's His will. By having them Christened, you're hoping that God is looking favourably on your family because you are showing your devotion to His cause, in the hope that he won't smite you down.

Such sweeping and frankly untrue assumptions about me!
You ask a question and then give what you think is my answer.
I can tell you what I believe if you want to know but you saying that collection of superstitious, opt of out life twaddle is my belief is about as prejudiced as me saying you're an atheist because you you're just going along with the majority of people around you

Such sweeping and frankly untrue assumptions about me!
You ask a question and then give what you think is my answer.
I can tell you what I believe if you want to know but you saying that collection of superstitious, opt of out life twaddle is my belief is about as prejudiced as me saying you're an atheist because you you're just going along with the majority of people around you

I'm actually a Satanist if everyone has their own. What was that about assumptions?

I do want to know what you believe, I was just making a statement regarding your, and other's, posts on this thread. All I'm saying is, from what I've experienced, and from what I can see on here, a Christening/Baptism is just another way of say I'm better than you because I have God on my side. If that isn't the case with you, then tell me why?

No you're imposing your interpretation onto me. Your ideas about the devil, yours about the church, yours about Christ, whether you subscribe to them or not.
What is the devil? What is church? Who/what is Christ?
Answer those before you accuse me of anything.
I don't follow what the last vicar told me was true about God. How can I when they say different things?
As for brainwashing- what do you mean exactly?

No I'm not, I copied and pasted from the link you provided. It's not my interpretation it's the one made by the religion you follow.

What I mean by brainwashing is this. Children are completely reliant for a good many years on their parents. They believe implicitly what their parents tell them and do not question it. If you tell your child that Santa exists they will believe it, if you tell your child that god exists they will believe it.
Since the two ideas there, Santa and god have about the same level of evidence to support them (ie none) it seems rather cruel to ingrain such a belief into a child when they are incapable of resisting it and seems in many ways like brainwashing, although technically that would be a process in which an existing belief or loyalty was first removed. Maybe brain-imposing would be better, but that sounds silly.

I'm not going to answer your questions about who and what as they are completely irrelevant to the issue of christening and making a commitment to bring your child up as a follower of a faith, the details of the faith hold no interest for me.

the only real significance is that baptism is a decision made by an adult to commit to a particular faith. christening is a decision made by a parent. I had my children christened because I believed it was the right thing to do, should anything happen to me I know that their Godparents would step up and take over.

Does the christening have anything to do with that? Could you not have trusted these people without a priest splashing some water around?

But can you also concede that there are also some people who get their children christened not as a way of judging other people or making any moral statement at all?But as a joyful happy ceremony free from any imagined or real undertones.
I agree with you about the parents' influence on the children but have no idea what you mean about "shifting blame", surely parents following a faith wouldn't want to blame God for their children growing up differently to the way they desired because this would go against their religion?

Seems unlikely, they could if they wished have a non religious ceremony to celebrate those issues without any of the hypocrisy that having a religious one for none religious reasons implies.

[QUOTE=leviathan13;2682971]I have God on my side. QUOTE]
the german army had something very similar on their belt buckles,but look at the atrocities they commited.......

[QUOTE=leviathan13;2682971]I have God on my side. QUOTE]
the german army had something very similar on their belt buckles,but look at the atrocities they commited.......

[QUOTE=leviathan13;2682971]I have God on my side. QUOTE]
the german army had something very similar on their belt buckles,but look at the atrocities they commited.......

When did I say I had God on my side?

I am godmother to my sister's youngest two.

Of the godparents, I was the only one who was a Christian. (I'm not any more)

I did not see the part of a godparent as just being my duty to oversee their spiritual welfare, but to mentor them generally, and, (god forbid) if anything should happen to my sister, that I should take the boys on and be their guardian. (particularly in light of their both being learning disabled, I definitely would not want them to go to a "stranger" who did not know or understand them)

Despite not considering myself Christian any more, I still believe that I should be a moral "barometer" for them, and an example to them, as well as a mentor. I still take seriously the "welfare" side of my duties to them.

I'm actually a Satanist if everyone has their own. What was that about assumptions?

I do want to know what you believe, I was just making a statement regarding your, and other's, posts on this thread. All I'm saying is, from what I've experienced, and from what I can see on here, a Christening/Baptism is just another way of say I'm better than you because I have God on my side. If that isn't the case with you, then tell me why?

Who has said that their children are better because they have been baptised? Please answer this question.

I have already told you why that isn't the case, I simply don't believe that they are better than other children because they have been baptised.

You said why do you believe in God? and then answered it with a collection of things people say about God- the least you can do is credit people with their own views instead of making out you know them

No I'm not, I copied and pasted from the link you provided. It's not my interpretation it's the one made by the religion you follow.

What I mean by brainwashing is this. Children are completely reliant for a good many years on their parents. They believe implicitly what their parents tell them and do not question it. If you tell your child that Santa exists they will believe it, if you tell your child that god exists they will believe it.
Since the two ideas there, Santa and god have about the same level of evidence to support them (ie none) it seems rather cruel to ingrain such a belief into a child when they are incapable of resisting it and seems in many ways like brainwashing, although technically that would be a process in which an existing belief or loyalty was first removed. Maybe brain-imposing would be better, but that sounds silly.

I'm not going to answer your questions about who and what as they are completely irrelevant to the issue of christening and making a commitment to bring your child up as a follower of a faith, the details of the faith hold no interest for me.

Of course the questions are relevant to the issue of Christening, I was talking directly about the service and how it can be interpreted in different ways. The statements you pasted weren't interpretations, they were statements. It is possible to interpret these statements in different ways. To explore this you need to consider that some people may answer the questions I asked with different responses, even though you are not prepared to think about them yourself. You've taken an interpretation of those statements and attributed it to me.

As for santa and God being analogous I don't agree, Religions have not been founded based on Santa, people don't pray to santa etc etc.
Your truth is that there is no God and you would bring your children up to believe this too as you live an atheist lifestyle and would not say you believed in God. This is just as biased as bringing them up religiously.

I have to say many things are being assumed about MY beliefs.

I'm actually a Satanist if everyone has their own. What was that about assumptions?

I do want to know what you believe, I was just making a statement regarding your, and other's, posts on this thread. All I'm saying is, from what I've experienced, and from what I can see on here, a Christening/Baptism is just another way of say I'm better than you because I have God on my side. If that isn't the case with you, then tell me why?

Well I'm interested in hearing what your beliefs are and not in terms of what you think about Religious people and how rubbish they are. What do YOU believe? I could cobble together a few bits I've heard here and there about satanists and accuse you of doing various things, would you be happy about that? Is that useful to anyone?

Seems unlikely, they could if they wished have a non religious ceremony to celebrate those issues without any of the hypocrisy that having a religious one for none religious reasons implies.

First of all show me someone who has said their children are better because they have been baptised.
How can you have a non-religious ceremony in which you are thanking God and praying?
I do not believe in a God that is at all judgemental. So now you have heard from one person at least.

Why should I do that? I didn't say it, someone else did.

You can't, hence why I said that in response to your comment
But can you also concede that there are also some people who get their children christened not as a way of judging other people or making any moral statement at all?But as a joyful happy ceremony free from any imagined or real undertones.

If they didn't want to make a moral statement and wanted no 'undertones' then they wouldn't choose a religious ceremony dedicating their child to their church and god would they.

I wouldn't push any believes down my theoretical childrens throats. I wouldn't tell them that they would be punished (with hell) if they didn't believe, I wouldn't take them to Sunday atheist indoctrination sessions for most of their young lives.
In short I would leave it as open as possible, if they asked I'd explain my view, I'd encourage them to attend RE lessons and to think for themself. This last thing being the antithesis of faith I expect it wouldn't lead them in the direction of worship, but I wouldn't brain wash them.

Of course the questions are relevant to the issue of Christening, I was talking directly about the service and how it can be interpreted in different ways. The statements you pasted weren't interpretations, they were statements. It is possible to interpret these statements in different ways. To explore this you need to consider that some people may answer the questions I asked with different responses, even though you are not prepared to think about them yourself. You've taken an interpretation of those statements and attributed it to me.

You're right, they are quite unequivocal as statements go, it doesn't matter how much you wriggle they really only say one thing.

As for santa and God being analogous I don't agree, Religions have not been founded based on Santa, people don't pray to santa etc etc.

Other than the lack of religion they are nearly identical though. Mythical figures, believed in despite any supporting evidence.

You're right, they are quite unequivocal as statements go, it doesn't matter how much you wriggle they really only say one thing.
What am I supposed to be wriggling about? If it is so obvious what those statements mean, please can you spell it out for me.

Other than the lack of religion they are nearly identical though. Mythical figures, believed in despite any supporting evidence.

oh yes apart from that insignificant thing

I wouldn't push any believes down my theoretical childrens throats. I wouldn't tell them that they would be punished (with hell) if they didn't believe, I wouldn't take them to Sunday atheist indoctrination sessions for most of their young lives.
In short I would leave it as open as possible, if they asked I'd explain my view, I'd encourage them to attend RE lessons and to think for themself. This last thing being the antithesis of faith I expect it wouldn't lead them in the direction of worship, but I wouldn't brain wash them.

Why would you have to tell them they are punished (with hell) if they don't believe? I don't believe that and would never tell them that. I assure you I'm not alone in believing in a God who is entirely loving, to everyone and non-judgemental.
As you are quoting me in your responses, are you talking about my beliefs? If not, whose are you talking about?

More than ever we are aware of the dangers that surround us and falling into bad company is only one of them. Not all dangers are physical neither can they be seen, often they are more subtle. No one is indoctrinating a baby that can't speak or understand language but they do understand loving warmth and protection and this is what the Christian seeks from their friends, family and Godparents when they bring their children to the Lord in faith believing the words of Jesus who said allow little children to come unto me.

Mark 10:14 Allow the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Mr 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Lu 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

<snip>No one is indoctrinating a baby that can't speak or understand language but they do understand loving warmth and protection and this is what the Christian seeks from their friends, family and Godparents when they bring their children to the Lord in faith believing the words of Jesus who said allow little children to come unto me.

<snip>

The quotes are all very interesting but the earliest Christian unambiguous references to the Baptism of children is with Ireneus around 180 AD. Mikvah the ritual purification by water in the Jewish tradition that Christian baptism derives from so far as I can see is normally an adult thing and not something for children.

Infant Baptism conflicts with various passages in the bible that require a choice or repentence as a prerequisite, like in Acts 2:38. John the Baptist for example baptised Jesus quite late in his life.

Baptism of children in Christianity appears to be a late development and a replacement for the initiation ceremony that in Judaism was circumcision (in Orthodox christianity it occurs on the 8th day, the same as circumcision in Judaism).

As an initiation ceremony it is harmless enough. But the conventional view that baptism is an act of grace and removes original sin, is obnoxious because of its association with original sin.

Don’t let dates put you off. Leyland, Dugdale, William Camden and others were recording English history in the 16th century, hundreds of years after the events.

Something similar happened within our lifetime when people took it upon themselves to record the heritage of our English folk music before it was lost to the world forever.