Last year their was a whole series of events inlcuding a service in the Winter gardens, but this year as yet I've not seen any press releases and their is no mention of Sheffield events on the official website:

http://www.holocaustmemorialday.gov.uk/default.asp

Does anyone have any information about what is planned in Sheffield if anything?

Sheffield UAF are holding a candlelight vigil outside the town hall at 5pm followed by a ceremony of remembrance in the Winter gardens at 6pm;

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/whats-new/holocaustmemorialceremony

Just as long as there are going to be no special Royal appearances.....

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Sheffield UAF are holding a candlelight vigil outside the town hall at 5pm followed by a ceremony of remembrance in the Winter gardens at 6pm;

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/whats-new/holocaustmemorialceremony just read the link provided by disco cat,as i was reading it i was reminded of my uncle len who fought a rear guard action at dunkirk and was eventually captured and interned in auswich,he wasn,t jewish but there were parts of the camp for prisoners of war.

he told me of some of the atrocities he witnessed in that camp, and he also told me he could never understand why the people that went through hell in there are now doing very similar things to the palistinians,not the camps, but murdering young children and civillians each day,he died not long ago, he was also in singapore when that fell and spent some time in a japanese p o w camp,he didnt talk about that time in his life much,but my aunt told me he used to wake up screaming at nights.

for what he did in france he was awarded the croix de guerre medal,their highst medal for valour, but he always asked , why would some one treat another person the same way they were treated ? who knows?

did anyone attend a holocaust memorial service? i went to barnsleys last night, found it very informative.

Should have really put a date up for this. The Sheffield events are tonight, Thursday the 27th

Their will be candlelight vigil held outside the town hall from 5.00pm followed by a memorial service in the Winter Gardens 6.00 - 6.15pm

Please stop by on your way home from work if possible, even if it’s just for a few moments.

Ihave been wathching some of the events on the t v to co incide with the liberation of the death camp at Auschwitz Poland and I have to say how moving the ceremonay was.
When you hear what those poor people went through you realise that it must never be allowed to happen again.
And it was good that those people like the gypsies and all those who dont always get a mention were able to be there along with the jewish people.
I just cant understand how such a cultured people like the germans coul'd end up commiting mass murder,still the camp must remain as testiment to evil and as reminder why we fought the nazis.

I agree, its moving stuff! I'm sure you'll agree with me, the only way to prevent this ever happening again is to fight nationalism, facism and racism wherever it rears its ugly head, and to promote tolerance and understanding between the rational and moderate people of all cultures and religions.

No I dont agree with your comments that nationalism is in any way linked to the Auschwitz memorial,this was done in the name of National Socialism we must remember the distinction.

Eeek I have just checked your other posts on the forum, and dont really think theres much point in either of us trying to convince the other about anything! :) Although a little healthy debate is always fun, we probably won't come to any decent conclusion.

I have looked at yours also and no I dont think we will agree on politics,BUT this is NOT about politics its about genocide and the memorial service,nothing more.

What is more political than genocide and the holocaust and remembering it and preventing it happening again?

I dont want to get into politics on this post,it does not seem appropiate to me.
I think it is more to do with the evil that exists in the human physic.
I think that it has to be kept dignified and I agree it mustnever happen again.

I'm not being undignified by talking about politics. You can't pretend the second world war was a battle of good vs evil in the human psyche, and there's nothing inappropriate about discussing politics with reference to the holocaust. That is the ONLY WAY to stop it from ever happening again. Otherwise rememberance is just lip service.

I'm with Roy on this one.

Do you think I'm being inappropriate? I'm genuinely confused! I wasn't out for a political arguement, I just think the causes and politics of WW2 are important to remember as well as the victims, lest we forget.

I've been to auschwitz myself, I don't need to be taught respect, thank you.

Here's an interesting statistic to reflect on from the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/holocaust/memorial_day_2004.shtml)

Only an estimated 11 per cent of Jewish children alive in 1933 survived until 1945.

May I crave your indulgences?

I was very moved by the tv coverage over the last few days, about the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, and was moved to write a piece about it,

" Reflections on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz"

We light the lights
To remember the souls
of Ravensbruck, Dachau,
Auschwitz, Westerborg...
Remember the six million souls
The Jew, the Gypsy,
The Communist, the Gay,
the Disabled, the Dissenter,
The man, the woman, the child,
The inhumanity, the death,
The old, and the young,
The Lover, the Unloved.
All human life was here,
And so was all human death.
We remember the gas chambers,
We remember the ovens
We remember the yellow stars,
We remember the pink triangles.
If one solitary life, saved
Meant salvation
Of the whole world...
Then six million deaths
Mean six million worlds
Are lost!
The world looks on,
As we light the lights,
To remember six million souls
And we say...
Never again!
Dear God, never again!

"Plain Talker", January 2005

PT

The Jewish Genocide was one of the worst attrocities in Human History but it was not the first and not the last. I agree we should commerate the anniversary and think of those who were murdered. But I have to ask, Should we put it to rest now?

There is no mileage in the argument that we learn from our mistakes of the past. Wouldnt it be better to let this dark period in human history go?

Originally posted by royjames
No I dont agree with your comments that nationalism is in any way linked to the Auschwitz memorial,this was done in the name of National Socialism we must remember the distinction.

As much as I am very much against royjames and his political party, I'd have to agree with him on this (as a history student).

There is a difference between Nationalism and National Socialism.

I would think that the BNP would never even think to do anything as inhuman as the 'final solution'

Re- Mat 1978

I disagree with you about letting things go.

How can the Jewish people forget when so many perished. it is one thing to forgive but never will we forget.

Evil exists when people do nothing and the more reminders we have the better society develops.

The 'Dislike of the Unlike' is all around us, even on this forum at times.

If there wasn't any moderators or people willing not to let things go, it would be a free for all, instead of heallthy debate and a difference of opinions with respect.

I bow to your superior knowledge on this one then Ian. :)
No, I don't think the BNP are equatable (thats probably not even a word) with the Nazis. Thats not at all what I was trying to say. I don't think they would do anything like the final solution, although, having just looked at the website, I think some of their policies would involve some kind of herding people around with guns.

That’s an amazing poem Plain Talker, incredibly powerful. I’ve saved a copy of it if you don’t mind.

I heard one very powerful point made my a Rabbi yesterday and that was the fact that a recent survey revealed that potentially 1 in 5 voters are considering voting for a far right party at the next election. The National Socialists came to power thanks to votes from a fifth of the German population.

Their are still people and politicians who share the same vision of Hitler, an Aryan country, and like Hitler you will not find this aims mentioned in their manifesto or election material. The reality of this fact was bought home to me last night after the ceremony when I was asked to walk an elderly lady to her car because the police and ambassadors had seen a known Sheffield racist youth with Nazi tattoos outside the winter gardens who was planning to disrupt the ceremony and they feared he may attack lone individuals as they left.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
That’s an amazing poem Plain Talker, incredibly powerful. I’ve saved a copy of it if you don’t mind.



I don't mind at all, disco-cat, just, if you use it, please acknowledge me as the author.

I am not the only poet on here, I know that Pretty Woman wrote an incredibly touching piece about the tsunami that I was privileged to see.

I am touched that my words have moved you, and thank you for telling me so, (sometimes, I feel that my poems and works are standing in isolation, nad II don't get to hear what people think. It's nice to get feedback)

Thanks for your encouragement.

I am apalled to hear that the bottom-feeding pond-scum were out at the Winter Garden. how sick does a person have to be to want to disrupt something as poignant as a memorial service for the millions (and I refer to the whole spectrum of those who died; the jew, the dissenters, the disabled, the gypsies etc) who were slaughtered by the nazis. I mean! that has to be a SPECIAL kind of sick, in a category all of its own.

I wanted to attend the Winter Garden memorial ceremony. I had planned to attend the ceremony, last night, but, a last minute breakdown of my wheelchair prevented me from getting there. I am terribly disappointed, and annoyed that I could not make it. I so wanted to be there, and make my stand, to acknowledge the millions that died in the camps, as well as the survivors, and say, collectively to their souls" You are remembered by ME, and the people I stand here, in solidarity with, tonight."

PT

I think why the 1933-1945 genocide was unique was that it was the first one to combine murder with science and industry.
It was conducted , using modern [for those days ] business and commercial techniques. Thousands of people were involved who didn't actually kill anyone.The victims to a large extent were forced to kill their own people.
It was government policy , not an aberration , by a few sadists.It was carried out with a weird mixture of passion and cold--blood.Even if the Nazis believed that Jews , Communists had to die---why all the humiliation first ? A lot of Nazis must have genuinely believed they were doing the right thing as they could otherwise have used all that lost labour making armaments. Also lots of rolling stock was used to transport prisoners which the German Army desperately needed.
I feel sure that no other holocaust , before or since , has contained all these factors. I think the reason it still fascinates us in the U.K. is that it happened near to us , geographically , and perhaps we have a sub--conscious feeling that if Operation Sealion had succeeded , there would have been plenty of people in Britain who would have carried out any atrocious act with enthusiasm , if the government ,German Occupiers or British Quislings , told them to .
After all , France gave the Nazis plenty of co--operation

As abhorrent as genocide is (and continues to be) we are risk of creating a 2 tear 'victim' class system.
What I am trying to say is that it's always the Jews that are brought up when WW2 genocide is mentioned.
Let us not forget the others;
Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis last century. It's estimated that 15 million people died in total. These included Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, anyone of African descent, Christian pastors and Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses and many more individuals who for one reason or another, were regarded as degenerates or considered racially inferior.
The events organised for Holocaust Memorial Day - both national and local - are designed to inform everyone about The Holocaust, it's impact on the 20th century and beyond and the lessons learnt from it. They also aim to reflect on more recent atrocities like those in Rwanda and Cambodia.

And also the genocide by the English Crusades in the middle ages; we are not innocent.

Quotes taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/holocaust/memorial_day_2004.shtml



:)

Don_Kiddick makes a really important point - one that royjames misses. A vitally important lesson from the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust - and other genocides throughout history - is that any society or culture that dehumanises a particular group or minority is capable of massive cruelty. Being "inhuman" to others is relatively easy: all you have to do is stop regarding them as human themselves. You can then give yourself carte blanche to do whatever you want to them, because they don't count.

This is what happened in Nazi Germany, Rwanda, the recent Balkan wars, Cambodia, Stalinist Russia, Abu Graib, et cetera.

As you will see from my poem, above, I haven't differentiated I have noted that it was not just the Jewish people. I mention the different groups of people that died. The jewish were the single biggest group, as a whole that were persecuted under the Nazi regime.

I mention the Jewish people, but I also point out that there were disabled people, Gypsies, communists, gay people, and those that simply dissented fron the Nazi "Borg-collective" style thinking.

PT

:blush: PT! I wasn't having a dig, hon! Just joining in...:( :thumbsup:

I’m sorry you missed the service PT, it was incredibly well organised, very powerful and very moving. You will be happy to hear however it was extremely well attended, if anything too many people were there and some at the back had problems hearing. I was amazed and proud to see such a huge and diverse audience.

Of course I will reference your poem and will contact you if I ever have the opportunity to use it or read it at a future event.

Donn Kidduck will also be pleased to here it covered not only the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust but victims of all genocides.

there seems to be some controvisy about the number of people who died in the holocaust, shamuel krakowsky,head of research at israel,s YAD VASHEM memorial for jewish victims of the holocaust said new information obtained from original records from auschwitz through the red cross show that 135,000 died at auschwitz,he cross indexed this with international tracing services who have a complete set of documents for all of the internees,these cover the camp roll call which was held twice daily and number the actual deaths ,there are 46 volumes,each documenting covering every death in the camp,the cause of death,their date of birth,pre-auschwitz residence,parents names,time of death,the death books as he calls them contain 69,000 names,30,000 were listed as jews.

using all available evidence from war records it has been estimated by the auschwitz museum that 400,000 people died in all the concentration camps,set up by the natzi,s

franciszek piper,director of the historical comitee of the auschwitz and berkenau museum stated that 1.3 million were sent to the camps,of which 223,ooo survived.

the people sent to the camps are documented as 960,000 jews,70 - 75000 poles,23,000 gypsys,and 15,000 soviet prisoners of war.


mr krakowsky,head of reasearch for the israeli yad vashem museum says the new figures are correct and plaques commemorating 4.000,000 dead have been removed from auschwitz earlier this month for amendment

from Disco-catI’m sorry you missed the service PT, it was incredibly well organised, very powerful and very moving. You will be happy to hear however it was extremely well attended, if anything too many people were there and some at the back had problems hearing. I was amazed and proud to see such a huge and diverse audience.

Of course I will reference your poem and will contact you if I ever have the opportunity to use it or read it at a future event.

Donn Kidduck will also be pleased to here it covered not only the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust but victims of all genocides

(with tongue slightly in cheek:-)

I don't think you could ever have "too many" attending an event like this. (VBG)

I would like to think that the attendance numbers fly in the face of those who would deny the Holocaust ever happened, or those who would asy that such an event has no significance to the generations alive today.

The most horrifying, and harrowing, book about the holocaust that I ever read was not a book about the atrocities themselves. It was a book by a supposed historian and scholar, who denies that the holocaust ever happened in the first place.

it is for people like him that I say "we must never let the atrocities that happened in Dachau, Auschwitz, Westerborg, Ravensbruck, Belsen, etc be forgotten."

if there is one ounce of human-ness within us, then it must cry out against what happened, and say, 'never again!'"

if we forget, we are permitting the evil that caused the holocaust to rise again.

PT

Originally posted by depoix

franciszek piper,director of the historical comitee of the auschwitz and berkenau museum stated that 1.3 million were sent to the camps,of which 223,ooo survived.

the people sent to the camps are documented as 960,000 jews,70 - 75000 poles,23,000 gypsys,and 15,000 soviet prisoners of war.


mr krakowsky,head of reasearch for the israeli yad vashem museum says the new figures are correct and plaques commemorating 4.000,000 dead have been removed from auschwitz earlier this month for amendment


Ok, depoix, there were supposedly :-

960,000 Jews
70/75, 000 Polish people
23,000 Gypsies,
and 15, 000 soviet POW's, were there?

What about the german-nationals who were communists or who otherwise dissented against the Nazis, and who went to the death camps?

Where are the numbers of the homosexuals, male and female, who were forced to wear the pink triangle in the same manner the Jewish were made to wear the yellow star, and who were sent to the camps?

Where are the numbers of the mentally ill, who were exterminated as being "sub-human"?

Where were the numbers of disabled, and mentally handicapped people who were exterminated because they were considered not to fit the "Aryan ideal"?

PT

We need to tread carefully when debating how many died as this might be construed as being revisionist.
I actually thought that the camp at treblinka was the worse of the lot as 99% were dead within 2 hours of arrival,unlike auschwitz where you might stay alive quite some time.
And before those on here have a go at me then read my earlier posts on this subject.

Originally posted by Plain Talker
Ok, depoix, there were supposedly :-

960,000 Jews
70/75, 000 Polish people
23,000 Gypsies,
and 15, 000 soviet POW's, were there?

What about the german-nationals who were communists or who otherwise dissented against the Nazis, and who went to the death camps?

Where are the numbers of the homosexuals, male and female, who were forced to wear the pink triangle in the same manner the Jewish were made to wear the yellow star, and who were sent to the camps?

Where are the numbers of the mentally ill, who were exterminated as being "sub-human"?

Where were the numbers of disabled, and mentally handicapped people who were exterminated because they were considered not to fit the "Aryan ideal"?

PT ive no idea, im just relating what i read,perhaps you miss interpreted my post, try reading www.rense.com thats where i read it,or are you just posting to have a go at me,?and you said supposedly regarding the numbers of deaths,i dont know,im just imparting the information i read, if you think its the wrong total that these people who run the museum have come up with after searching the documents then have a go at them,dont shoot the messenger,ok?

no, depoix, I am not "having a go", I was just musing on where the figures had come from.

I am concerned that there were whole sectors of the community who had been overlooked, who perished in one way or another (whether the gas chambers or through experiments/ medical research, or sheer starvation, ill treatment or neglect).

People like the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped and the physically disabled, whom I mentioned in my earlier posts, and people who were gay.

if the people who counted up the numbers, without including those, well.. how many other groups have they missed?

that's my thinking...

PT

Originally posted by Plain Talker
no, depoix, I am not "having a go", I was just musing on where the figures had come from.

I am concerned that there were whole sectors of the community who had been overlooked, who perished in one way or another (whether the gas chambers or through experiments/ medical research, or sheer starvation, ill treatment or neglect).

People like the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped and the physically disabled, whom I mentioned in my earlier posts, and people who were gay.

if the people who counted up the numbers, without including those, well.. how many other groups have they missed?

that's my thinking...

PT its easier to explain if you read the link,the people who made the amendments are the proffesionals,and according to what ive read they have collected the information from all known sources concerning aushwitz,they are the ones who have removed the plaques to adjust the figures,and if you read some of my earlier posts you would find that i wrote, my uncle was imprisoned there, so ive no hidden agenda, it just seems that things are not what we were led to believe

Of course you can never have too many people in attendance, I was under the impression the event had been under advertised and was worried only a few people would turn up. I was so pleased with the huge numbers in attendance.

To all the ‘revisionists’ for want of a better word, why do you have to choose this thread and this week to raise your questions. Have some respect.

I wouldn't consider myself as a revisionist. I've been thinking about this and I do believe in properganda. There could have been good reason politically to exagerate or fabricate warcrimes to make the Nazis worse than they were. Remember the winners write hsitory and they do so with properganda. What is wrong with evaluating the events of yesterday without political interference and bias? That is the truth behind revisionisim isn't it?

I think it goes without saying how terrible the Holocaust was, however a Holocaust of equal proportions had been and still was taking place in Russia. However bad Hitler was Stalin in my view was as bad if not worse.

Which is the greater evil, Communism or the Nazi?

In the closing days of WW2 a rumour spread through the German forces that Germany would make peace with the Western Allies.They would then join them in the war on the Eastern front with Russia.

It makes you wonder how the world would have changed if this had been the case, no Cold War, no Indo China and no Vietnam?

If Hitler had been removed from power earlier on could a lasting peace have been forged between the Western Allies and Germany.

If instead of instigating mass genocide, Hitler had merely made the Jews leave Germany, I doubt any of the other World Powers would have done anything much.

Even after WW2 and all the horrors came out that were committed against the Jewish people, anti Semitism was still rife in Great Britain.

Sadly I think history proves the Nazis were just a part of a long line of persecutors of the Jewish race, and much as we should remember the Jewish Holocaust of WW2 its not the only one that took place.

Originally posted by Seadiver
I think it goes without saying how terrible the Holocaust was, however a Holocaust of equal proportions had been and still was taking place in Russia. However bad Hitler was Stalin in my view was as bad if not worse.

Which is the greater evil, Communism or the Nazi?



It could be argued that Stalin's version of Communism is different to what Lenin's or Trotsky's version was....

doesnt it boil down to the fact that we the british public were kept in the dark by our government as to what was happening in these camps, r.a.f .flew over them daily but did not attempt to bomb or straffe them,the red cross were frequent visitors,yet we the public heard nothing,it was only after france and africa had been won that the propoganda merchants decided that now we are not fighting on several fronts it was time to release what was happening in these camps.

it was manipulation of the british public by churchill, the very same as pearl harbour,the u s a government were informed the attack was imenent,but let it happen, so as to gain the approval of the american people so they could enter the war,albiet several years late.

these people were sacrificed by our government,at the time and it still goes on today, weopons of mass destruction in iraq,bring the peoples emotions up and they will back us to the hilt is what the government thought,but today,s technology is better than 60 years ago,we no longer have to rely on censurewd news papers for what is the true facts.

a quick search of the internet will show us the real news,not the news that is handed out in our daily papers.

the holocaust happened because our politicians allowed it to happen,just as they allow genoside in africa,or massacre by the israelis of palastinian people.

where were we when afganistan was invaded? sure we sent in batts ( british army training teams ) but we didnt drop troops enmasse to defend the locals, the same with iraq,our troops are fighting against trained men that were armed and trained by us and the u s a .all in the nameof commerce.

we have been held in the dark for centuries while the elite group who actually run britain sit in safety and are getting fatter bank accounts by the minute.

whats the next election going to bring? we will spend more money on education,hospitals,the nhs, its the same old story,all the politicians do is promise us mugs any thing,then spin there way out of it once elected.

condolences to the people who had to die in all the wars, i do respect them, but for the politiciancs,it would / should never be allowed to happen again, respects to the victims should be acknowledged every day,not just because its an aniversary.....
thank you

Does anyone know if there are any holocaust survivors living in Sheffield? Also can anyone tell me the origins of the word holocaust? A none-practicing Jewish acquaintance of mine tells me the term was first used in the 1970’s.

Reading depoix’s post, I feel he has “hit the nail on the head”. There is no more to say.

Stevie, this from the observer:

'Holocaust' as a term for the attempted extermination of the Jewish people was coined by a survivor, Elie Wiesel, and derived from a Greek translation of the biblical word for burnt offering. Wiesel created it to give expression to the semi-sacred nature of what was being described. It is not a term of analysis.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Stevie, this from the observer:

'Holocaust' as a term for the attempted extermination of the Jewish people was coined by a survivor, Elie Wiesel, and derived from a Greek translation of the biblical word for burnt offering. Wiesel created it to give expression to the semi-sacred nature of what was being described. It is not a term of analysis.

Thank you very much for the information kathy.

If anyone is interested in seeing a very revealing film about the ordinary people of Germany and their part in the Shoah (haulocaust) try to see the 1985 documentary film called 'Shoah' by Claude Lanzmann.

It is available on DVD.

I warn you it is 9 1/2 hours long but it is a historical well researched work and will completely change your views of the events that took place and who played a part.

This is not a horror film although it explains the horrors that took place and not only by the Nazis.

There's an incredibly powerful documentary available on Telewest Teleport at the moment called Auschwitz - The forgotten evidence.

If you can get to see it, you should try.

PT, I'm with you on this one...

Moving poem btw, thanks.

Stagey xx

thanks for the encouraging words, Stagey,

I am quite pleased with the poem, and I think it conveys what's needed to be conveyed.

I will try and teleport that programme about Auschwitz. TY for the heads-up about it being broadcast.

PT

I will try and teleport that programme about Auschwitz. TY for the heads-up about it being broadcast.

PT

Very powerful images. The programme actually made me shed a tear. Mind you, that's nothing unusual these days, even though I am far too young to be hormonal! :hihi: And anyway, crying is the new black! :)

We must never be allowed to forget the terrible, terrible events of that period. And to anyone who doubts that the holocaust never happened, hmmmm, well.....less said, soonest mended.

Quick note PT: Did you get that garden thing sorted out? - check out the gardening thread.

:)

Stagey xxx