can any one throw some light on where this saying originates ?as ive heard it said twice on two tv films this week, i understand what it means,but how did the two animals get classed together to mean a lie/made up story etc..

Could be that it goes back to a well documented event or story that entered into the language as with "Bob's your uncle".

Don't know the exact origin though.

I was about to point out a cross breeding being unlikely, but then noticed they're both male... but maybe that just adds to the unlikelyhood.....

Could bull refer to bull****?

Originally posted by Carmine
Could bull refer to bull****?

And why do we say that, too?

'Something smells fishy' ?

there's a place near milton keynes called stoney stratford..i used to work there in the 80's.....there are two pubs next door to each other one called the cock and one called the bull.....every time a tale was told in the cock it had been vastly exaggerated by the time it got round the bull..or vice versa

Originally posted by Strix
And why do we say that, too?

'Something smells fishy' ?

Fish that smells fishy is usually off, so if something smells fishy it is bad, or dodgy ?

I'm sure there must be a book or website that would answer all these questions...shame I'm too darn lazy to find it.

I believe that it originates from two pubs which are next to each other in Stony Stratford (just outside Milton Keynes) - not sure how they tie the phrase into dubious stories though.

http://www.miltonkeynesnow.co.uk/inandaround/

Both do a reasonable pint if memory serves.

Damn. You beat me to it Kirky!

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
I believe that it originates from two pubs which are next to each other in Stony Stratford (just outside Milton Keynes) - not sure how they tie the phrase into dubious stories though.

http://www.miltonkeynesnow.co.uk/inandaround/

Both do a reasonable pint if memory serves.

i just said that:|

Your syncronicity amazes me!

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
Damn. You beat me to it Kirky!

He's fast SV, or so I have heard ;)

Dun Laohaire in Ireland has two bars next to each other, called Paddy's Bar and Paddy's Other Bar...now that's class :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Carmine
Your syncronicity amazes me!

It amazed me too, Just when I thought that I knew the answer to a question that no one else did . Stony's one of the few places in MK that's any good for proper pubs (probably because it's so artificial!). I think in the Bull actually has some sort of framed explanation on the wall in the bar which details how the phrase came about.

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
Damn. You beat me to it Kirky!

:D :D :D i was there in 1985 working on the abby national officers just outside MK train station....i was staying in stoney stratford and found it very boring:| i was actually chatted up in a gay bar...i was there a good half n hour before i realised i was in a poof palace.........:o :o :o :o :o

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
I believe that it originates from two pubs which are next to each other in Stony Stratford (just outside Milton Keynes) - not sure how they tie the phrase into dubious stories though.

http://www.miltonkeynesnow.co.uk/inandaround/

Both do a reasonable pint if memory serves.

The road through Stoney Stratford (Watling Street, the old Roman Road), used to be one of the main coaching roads from London.

Stoney was the first/last stop out of London depending if you were travelling North or South. The two inns (The Cock and The Bull) are opposite each other and were used by the coach passengers while they were waiting for the horses to be changed.

Gossip and news was exchanged, much of which became exaggerated in the telling, hence if something seemed a little far-fetched, it later became known as a "Cock & Bull story"

well you certainly seemed to clear that one up very quickly,any one got anymore? ie.gather your rosebuds while ye may,every cloud has a silver lining,worse things happen at sea,get your finger out ( of what ?) there must be dozens left that are in every day usage............

Originally posted by depoix
...get your finger out ............

I remember wanting to know the origin of this one a while ago, and from what I remember it was something to do with cannons... unfortunately my memory is appalling and I can't offer any more than that! I do definitely remember though that its meaning wasn't as dirty as I anticipated it would be :blush:

There must be a website that details how certain sayings came about ... i'd be interested in learning their origins! :roll:

i know about 'cut above the rest'
and 'the upper crust'

the whole nine yards......that originates from american troops as the machine gun belt is exactly 9 yard in length....during a battle some would shout let them have the whole nine yards....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: wow that was interesting

Originally posted by kirky
the whole nine yards......that originates from american troops as the machine gun belt is exactly 9 yard in length....during a battle some would shout let them have the whole nine yards....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: wow that was interesting

actually yes it was interesting! :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Carmine
I'm sure there must be a book or website that would answer all these questions...shame I'm too darn lazy to find it.

Never fear, I got the very book for christmas from my clever dick boyfriend. (Clever dick?!)

It's: Red Herrings and White Elephants and it can be found in most good bookstores, RRP £9.99.

It's great - recommend. Has the origins of "bob's your uncle" too btw!

Originally posted by christine
Never fear, I got the very book for christmas from my clever dick boyfriend. (Clever dick?!)

It's: Red Herrings and White Elephants and it can be found in most good bookstores, RRP £9.99.

It's great - recommend. Has the origins of "bob's your uncle" too btw!

Well! come on then, let's be having it....oh dear :o :o :o

Originally posted by christine
Never fear, I got the very book for christmas from my clever dick boyfriend. (Clever dick?!)

It's: Red Herrings and White Elephants and it can be found in most good bookstores, RRP £9.99.

It's great - recommend. Has the origins of "bob's your uncle" too btw! well ? are you going to tell us or is it a secret?

Originally posted by kirky
the whole nine yards......that originates from american troops as the machine gun belt is exactly 9 yard in length....during a battle some would shout let them have the whole nine yards....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: wow that was interesting oh, i always thought it was something to do with american football,prefer your answer though

heres a strange one that any folklore people out there may be able to answer,when i was younger i used to work on the farms, when some one died there was always some old timer that would say " his lad / lass will have to tell the bees " intriguing,but what an earth does it mean ?

"telling the bees" is widespread folklore.
Bees were regarded as 'messengers', carrying information here and there.
If you kept bees it was (and is) important to keep them informed of 'goings on' otherwise they might take offense and leave.
It could also be bad luck not to tell them and they might die off.

I think it goes something like this:

"Bob" was Lord Salisbury (Robert Cecil) who, when Prime Minister, gave the post of Secretary for Ireland to Arthur? Balfour who, I think was his nephew.
Generally regarded as a clear case of favouritism, "Bob's your uncle" came to refer to "things will turn out OK" etc.

thank you,but why would they die? and how would they pass on a message? i know that there is a lot of truth in these old adages but how did they begin? what im trying to say is the old saying of, never cast a clout till may is out ,is common sense , when you consider there was no central heating years ago and it was wise to keep well wrapped up until the warmer weather turned up, but such ones concerning telling the bees some one has died mystifies me...

Originally posted by cgksheff
"telling the bees" is widespread folklore.
Bees were regarded as 'messengers', carrying information here and there.
If you kept bees it was (and is) important to keep them informed of 'goings on' otherwise they might take offense and leave.
It could also be bad luck not to tell them and they might die off.

blimey you're good!
more please :thumbsup:

Originally posted by christine
Never fear, I got the very book for christmas from my clever dick boyfriend. (Clever dick?!)

It's: Red Herrings and White Elephants and it can be found in most good bookstores, RRP £9.99.

It's great - recommend. Has the origins of "bob's your uncle" too btw!

come on then - 'spill the beans' :D

wanna hear how some of these sayings came about

Originally posted by Bedhead
There must be a website that details how certain sayings came about ... i'd be interested in learning their origins! :roll:

i know about 'cut above the rest'
and 'the upper crust'

The "upper crust" is probably something to do with the rich people getting the top of a pie and the servants getting the bottom bit that is left behind ?

I'm guessing.

Originally posted by nick2
The "upper crust" is probably something to do with the rich people getting the top of a pie and the servants getting the bottom bit that is left behind ?

I'm guessing.

That was Humble (umble) Pie the servants had to eat.

That originates from when the Lord of the Manor went hunting for deer, and he only took the venison for himself. The innards or umbles were left behind for the poor people to have...hence to eat humble pie, means to grovel or beg for something.

Ere's one for ya. My ma says it alot n I think she refers to it when I say things like I don't like something but have never tried it;- she says, "It's all me eye and Peggy Martin!!!!!" WhoTF is Peggy Martin n what have her eyes got to do with anything? And why is a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?:confused:

Still open to a lot of debate, but the one that make's most sense too me involves when Protestants were taking the mickey out of Catholics and saying that their incantations were a load of nonsense.

O mihi beate Martine! (Come to my aid, blessed Martin) was mimicked and corrupted to "All my eye, Betty Martin".

With time the original form can get changed and or forgotten hence "Peggy Martin"

Originally posted by missnorks
And why is a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?:confused:

'A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' is a proverb meaning that it is better to have something that is certain than take a risk to get more, where you might lose everything.

"A bird in the hand ...." is a simpler expression to illustrate that it is better to be satisfied with what you have rather than risking it for something better that is not yet yours.
Yes there are two bird's in the bush which is more than the one you are holding but you would still have to catch them and hence they could equally get away.

Keep your pound or buy a raffle ticket for a bigger prize?

Thans for that. I thought my ma had simply made it up!:razz:

A quick google search told me that "cock and bull story" originates from a shortening of "concocted and bully story" where bully in this sense means exaggerated.

Hence a Cock and Bull story is a story that has been made up and exaggerated beyond what would be realistic.

Originally posted by TracieJC
I remember wanting to know the origin of this one a while ago, and from what I remember it was something to do with cannons... unfortunately my memory is appalling and I can't offer any more than that! I do definitely remember though that its meaning wasn't as dirty as I anticipated it would be :blush:
When a muzzle-loaded cannon was fired, the powder was rammed to the end of the barrel, where there was a small hole in the top where the light was applied to fire the powder.. Once the powder was in, they still had to load the ball or whatever, so to prevent a spark setting off the powder too soon, one of the crew would put their finger over the hole. Once the gun was fully loaded, he would remove his finger and the powder set off with a slow burning match. Since it was a matter of pride and effieciency to fire as quickly as pssible, anyone slow to uncover the hole was told to 'get your finger out'.:thumbsup:
Now, my question is, where does :thumbsup: originate and how did it get its meaning?

If you're referring to thumbs up then is it along the same lines as sticking two fingers- up as in to show that they're (or it) is still there and have not been chopped off:thumbsup: