When did the national speed limit change to 70mph and why does anyone know.:confused:

Found this:

It is not as if the 70 mph motorway speed limit was set by any sort of science. As we understand it it was an arbitrary decision taken at a meeting at the then Ministry of Transport in 1965. In 1965 a typical new car was a Ford Anglia with an absolute top speed of about 85 mph and much inferior brakes.


Sure someone else will come up with something more robust.

It isn't, it depends what road you're on.

Originally posted by frenchfrie
Found this:

It is not as if the 70 mph motorway speed limit was set by any sort of science. As we understand it it was an arbitrary decision taken at a meeting at the then Ministry of Transport in 1965. In 1965 a typical new car was a Ford Anglia with an absolute top speed of about 85 mph and much inferior brakes.


Sure someone else will come up with something more robust. Well with that figuring we should now be doing around 120mph seeing a average new car does around 130mph with better stopping capabilities.:clap:

I thought the National Speed limit was only 60mph ... except on dual carraigeways. (And except for those who insist it is more dangerous to check your speedometer than to drive however fast you like!):rolleyes:

There are actually 3 national speed limits depending on where you are and the type of road:-

Road with street lights 30 mph
Road without street lights 60 mph
Dual carriageway without street lights 70mph

The following link refers.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103

motorway speed limits came into force in 1967 I think, so it being set in 65 would make sense.
Before they were set racing teams used the M1 to test there race vehicles.

Originally posted by Saxon
There are actually 3 national speed limits depending on where you are and the type of road:-

Road with street lights 30 mph
Road without street lights 60 mph
Dual carriageway without street lights 70mph

The following link refers.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103

so is a dual carriageway WITH street lights only 30 then?

dave

Supposedly parliament got a bit miffed when an AC Cobra was clocked doing over 180mph down the recently opened M1 in '64ish and this led to the speed limit being created.

difficult to clock it given that they didn't have speed guns.

If you google it you can find the full story, it was one of the racing tests I mentioned, may well have been a cobra. It was a few years later when the speed limit was introduced, but the transport minister had mentioned that incident so it was generally assumed to be the root cause.

Ok maybe clocked wasn't the right word but it's generally accepted it was doing 183mph - maybe the figure came from the driver?!

But yeah the M1 was a large test track for car manufacturers :)

Be careful doing over 70mph on the motorway!

I know of someone that was in the slow lane on the M1 doing 75- 78MPH, being followed by a police car (for about 5 minutes). Cars were zooming past at 90+ MPH, and the police pulled this guy and gave him 3 points for driving at 78MPH!

That's shocking considering how fast the other cars were travelling, and when the guy said "Did you see the other cars and how fast they were going?" The police just said "We weren't watching them, we were watching you" :loopy:

Originally posted by GazB
I know of someone that was in the slow lane on the M1 doing 75- 78MPH, being followed by a police car (for about 5 minutes). Cars were zooming past at 90+ MPH, and the police pulled this guy and gave him 3 points for driving at 78MPH!


So much for the 10% + 4mph (81mph)

Originally posted by GazB
Be careful doing over 70mph on the motorway!

I know of someone that was in the slow lane on the M1 doing 75- 78MPH, being followed by a police car (for about 5 minutes). Cars were zooming past at 90+ MPH, and the police pulled this guy and gave him 3 points for driving at 78MPH!

That's shocking considering how fast the other cars were travelling, and when the guy said "Did you see the other cars and how fast they were going?" The police just said "We weren't watching them, we were watching you" :loopy:

smacks of urban legend to me.

Originally posted by Cyclone
smacks of urban legend to me.

Agreed. I know loads of traffic officers. Just doesnt sound right.

Originally posted by Mooseyb
Agreed. I know loads of traffic officers. Just doesnt sound right.
Sounds like it's not the full story. I know of police officers who are more concerned with safety than speed, allegedly! If this persons was weaving about at 70MPH then I'd book him.

My dad got booked twice for going between 70-80mph (I can't remember exactly what it was, about 76 I think but it was definitely under 80mph) by those sneaky white vans they have parked on the bridges on the A1(M). Both were with a month of each other.

Originally posted by Deejay
So much for the 10% + 4mph (81mph)

It's 10% + 2mph

Originally posted by GazB
Be careful doing over 70mph on the motorway!

I know of someone that was in the slow lane on the M1 doing 75- 78MPH, being followed by a police car (for about 5 minutes). Cars were zooming past at 90+ MPH, and the police pulled this guy and gave him 3 points for driving at 78MPH!

That's shocking considering how fast the other cars were travelling, and when the guy said "Did you see the other cars and how fast they were going?" The police just said "We weren't watching them, we were watching you" :loopy:

Im sure you can only do over 70 mph when over taking, maybe that's why the police didn't pull the others and decided to pull him as he was constantly breaking the speed limit. Or have I been given the wrong info?? i dunno!

Originally posted by 367squadron
Im sure you can only do over 70 mph when over taking, maybe that's why the police didn't pull the others and decided to pull him as he was constantly breaking the speed limit. Or have I been given the wrong info?? i dunno!

have you ever driven on the motorway? The people overtaking at 90 aren't doing it to pull back in and slow down, they just keep going.

And it's never okay to do over 70, overtaking would be mitigation if you went to court, or you might persuade the police man that you just wanted to overtake and then pull in. But technically it's still breaking the law..

Sorry, thinking a little bit more. If these overtaking people were aloud to break the speed limit to overtake (which they aren't) they'd then have to pull back in and slow down to the limit. So it would be impossible to continously break the limit without overtaking.

Originally posted by alchemist
so is a dual carriageway WITH street lights only 30 then?

dave

Unless there are signs saying the speed limit is more than 30 mph, then yes.

Penistone Road, and Mansfield Road (Manor Top), are good examples.

Originally posted by Saxon
Unless there are signs saying the speed limit is more than 30 mph, then yes.

Penistone Road, and Mansfield Road (Manor Top), are good examples.

Parkway has signs doesnt it? I tend to avoid it as it has more bumps and holes than I like my car to travel over! Its also lit if I remember correctly?

Im trusting the driving instructor here! Mr Saxon most likely knows what hes on about! :)

That's shocking considering how fast the other cars were travelling, and when the guy said "Did you see the other cars and how fast they were going?" The police just said "We weren't watching them, we were watching you"

This happened to a mate of mine, when he asked the officer why he missed the other cars the officer said "have you ever been fishing?"
My mate said "Yes"
Officer said "ever caught ALL the fish?"

Originally posted by Saxon
Unless there are signs saying the speed limit is more than 30 mph, then yes.


Saxon, I checked the Highway Code and it says the same as you:
*** The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise)***

Now, without me being a bit thick, does this mean that when they put lights on stretches of motorway, they have also to put up "National Limit Applies" signs?

Originally posted by cgksheff
Saxon, I checked the Highway Code and it says the same as you:
*** The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise)***

Now, without me being a bit thick, does this mean that when they put lights on stretches of motorway, they have also to put up "National Limit Applies" signs?

Good question!!! I must admit to being stumped on that one.

All I can say is that as you enter the motorway there is a national speed limit (or a 70 mph) sign.

I'll make enquiries and find out.

Originally posted by mooseyb
Parkway has signs doesnt it? I tend to avoid it as it has more bumps and holes than I like my car to travel over! Its also lit if I remember correctly?

Yes the Parkway does have signs.

the answers to the original questions can be found here:

http://www.roadsafetyuk.co.uk/histall.htm

introduced as a temporary measure, the 70 mph limit was at one point reduced to 50mph in a fuel crisis and made permanent in 1978 when the lower 60mph limit for dual carriageways was introduced.

hope this is useful.

;o)

Originally posted by cgksheff
Now, without me being a bit thick, does this mean that when they put lights on stretches of motorway, they have also to put up "National Limit Applies" signs?

A motorway would be classed as exactly that, a motorway. A sign tells you that you are entering one so the 70 limit applies unless 'otherwise' informed.

How I understand it, the street lighting speed limit is in force for the protection of pedestrians. Motorways are pedestrian-free zones.

To answer cgksheff's question, take a look at the following. Sorry if its a bit wordy but its from the horse's mouth.

" The short answer is NO, repeater signs are not required on motorways. ALL other roads, that are not motorways, are governed by the Road Traffic Act, motorways are governed by a different set of rules, which go by the name of

Motorway Traffic Regulations 1982.

As for street lighting on motorways, you will ONLY find lighting on intersections, junctions or small sections of motorway where you have two intersections that are quite close together.

As for a National Speed limit sign at the beginning of a motorway, it doesn't always follow that a sign will be placed at the beginning - what you WILL see is the blue motorway sign, which means Motor regulations apply to a 'Special Road', which is how the Road Traffic Act 1984 (Section 17(4)) refers to motorways. The Regulations for speed limits on Motorways are : -

Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) order 1977. So quite an old piece of legislation.

To answer your question one now has to look at another section -

Section 85(4) Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 -
REQUIREMENT FOR SIGNS -

A person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on a road in excess of the speed limit unless the limit is indicated by traffic signs which are erected and maintained as required (Unless it is a restricted road with a system of street lighting OR a NATIONAL MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT 60 mph - 70 mph on dual carriageways).

So under Motorway Regulations there is in force a National Maximum limit in force so REPEATER signs are NOT required.

For your information - and EVERYONE else : -

NATIONAL SPEED LIMITS are TEMPORARY limits which are required to be renewed EVERY 18 months, and this is achieved by a statutory instrument 1548/78. This allows them to be renewed automatically. National speed limits were introduced when we had a fuel shortage way back in 1977, and this was the result.

History lesson over.
Hope this answers the question fully "

So there we have it - motorways are designated as 'special roads' and the normal signing rules do not apply. Therefore the rule about street lights determining the speed limit does NOT apply to motorways.

Originally posted by Twiglet
My dad got booked twice for going between 70-80mph (I can't remember exactly what it was, about 76 I think but it was definitely under 80mph) by those sneaky white vans they have parked on the bridges on the A1(M). Both were with a month of each other.

:|

Then surely he should've slowed down after getting caught the first time! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Saxon
So there we have it -

Thank you, Saxon. Well done.

Originally posted by Saxon

As for street lighting on motorways, you will ONLY find lighting on intersections, junctions or small sections of motorway where you have two intersections that are quite close together.


Interesting point that because if you travel south on the M1 from appox Nottingham area and most of the way south towards London it continously has street lighting on the main carriage way, including some interesting lights suspended by wires.

Always amuses me that heading north back up the M1 you can tell you're nearly back in Sheffield because the street lighting disappears, cant us northerners afford the electricity bill or is it that southerners cant drive in the dark!

Originally posted by mega_monty
Always amuses me that heading north back up the M1 you can tell you're nearly back in Sheffield because the street lighting disappears, cant us northerners afford the electricity bill or is it that southerners cant drive in the dark!
Southerners can't drive full stop. I have to circumnavigate the useless <insert word> every day.

I think, that we should have 3 speed limits on the motorway, the outer lane being the usual 70mph, middle lane no slower than 90mph and the inner should be 120mph or something like that, maybe even no limit on the inner lane that would make for much faster transport around the country, and a lot more fun whilst driving, there will be safety issues but people who dont fell capable of driving at high speed or whos vehicle is incapable should stay in the slower lanes, almost like an autobahn in england, loads more tourists! :clap:

Originally posted by spook
:|

Then surely he should've slowed down after getting caught the first time! :rolleyes:

Not many people really travel at under 70 on a motorway. Anyway he knew he'd done something wrong so he paid the fines, end of story (Then bought one of those litle detector thingies to sniff out the sneaky white vans).

I was just trying to illustrate the point someone had made earlier about someone being booked for going at 70 something on a motorway who was told it was an urban legend because the police usually allow 10% +2 mph. Its entirely at their own discretion so people can't rely on it.

Originally posted by Viper_GTSR
I think, that we should have 3 speed limits on the motorway, the outer lane being the usual 70mph, middle lane no slower than 90mph and the inner should be 120mph or something like that, maybe even no limit on the inner lane that would make for much faster transport around the country, and a lot more fun whilst driving, there will be safety issues but people who dont fell capable of driving at high speed or whos vehicle is incapable should stay in the slower lanes, almost like an autobahn in england, loads more tourists! :clap:

i think you might have your lanes backwards.

But what happens if you want to travel at 70 but need to overtake a lorry travelling at 55, or another lorry overtaking at 55.5. You have to accelerate to a minimum of 120 in the latter case if thats the minimum limit on the fast lane.
I don't think differential speeds will work with only 3 lanes and such a dichotomy of speed capabilities. Varying the limit for the entire motorway up and down depending on conditions would be a better option, as you can't speed when it's busy anyway, so no loss there.

Originally posted by Viper_GTSR
I think, that we should have 3 speed limits on the motorway, the outer lane being the usual 70mph, middle lane no slower than 90mph and the inner should be 120mph or something like that, maybe even no limit on the inner lane that would make for much faster transport around the country, and a lot more fun whilst driving, there will be safety issues but people who dont fell capable of driving at high speed or whos vehicle is incapable should stay in the slower lanes, almost like an autobahn in england, loads more tourists! :clap:

the problem you will have there is that at some stage everyone will be breaking the law in that you will be above the speed limit of 70 in one lane and below the minimum of 90 in the next, not many standard cars can go from 70 to 90 in less than the half a second or so it takes to change lane

dave

Yeah its true, maybe if there were more lanes it would be possible but it would be much easier to raise the speed limit, it was set a long time ago and cars have improved vastly since then, i just hope they move it to more than 80mph because not many people in the 2 faster lanes go below 75mph anyway. 90mph is fair :D

I'm really tired as i just pent 2 hours trying to understand quantum physics :confused: ( my head hurts), so I shall be departing to my sleeping quarters soon.

Gdnight People!

Originally posted by Viper_GTSR
Yeah its true, maybe if there were more lanes it would be possible but it would be much easier to raise the speed limit, it was set a long time ago and cars have improved vastly since then, i just hope they move it to more than 80mph because not many people in the 2 faster lanes go below 75mph anyway. 90mph is fair :D


Cars may have moved on but its the idiots behind the wheel that control them.

I'm not so sure that they have.

Don't confuse the capabilities of cars with the capabilities of the driver.

Originally posted by Saxon
Cars may have moved on but its the idiots behind the wheel that control them.

I'm not so sure that they have.

Don't confuse the capabilities of cars with the capabilities of the driver.

but don't discount the fact that cars can stop more quickly and safely than they could in 67. ABS helps the idiots and any good drivers as well.

Originally posted by Saxon
Unless there are signs saying the speed limit is more than 30 mph, then yes.

Penistone Road, and Mansfield Road (Manor Top), are good examples.

But the Parkway is a dual-carriageway, with the National Speed Limit applying to most of it, i.e. at 70mph. However, there are streetlights all along the road, so how do you define streetlights? Or is the limit 30mph on the Parkway?!

Originally posted by t020
Or is the limit 30mph on the Parkway?! Only on the bit between the Park Square roundabout and the traffic lights, but travelling that slow there is taking your life in your hands :D

I think the rule about street lights only applies if there are no speed signs.

Where's Saxon when you need him?

Originally posted by alchemist
so is a dual carriageway WITH street lights only 30 then?
Unless otherwise posted, yes.

Originally posted by Strix
I think the rule about street lights only applies if there are no speed signs.

Where's Saxon when you need him?

I'm here - and you are absolutely correct.

T020 - why don't you read the whole thread?

And by the way - the Parkway is not national speed limit for most of its length. From the traffic lights near the bottom going out of town its 50 mph until you go past the Handsworth exit, then it goes to NSL.

Its not rocket science to work it out!!

Originally posted by Saxon
I'm here - and you are absolutely correct.

T020 - why don't you read the whole thread?


Because I have over a months-worth to catch up on and really don't have the time to read every single post!

Originally posted by Saxon

And by the way - the Parkway is not national speed limit for most of its length. From the traffic lights near the bottom going out of town its 50 mph until you go past the Handsworth exit, then it goes to NSL.

Its not rocket science to work it out!!

I know when it goes to NSL, and I know the NSL is 70mph because it is a dual-carriageway with central reservation, but I've never understood the streetlight rules because the Parkway does have streetlights, like most roads do.

Just wondering whether the street lighting being on the central reservation, as opposed to the kerb/nearside, on the Parkway and motorways makes a difference as to how it effects the speed limit.

Street lighting in built up areas is usually for the benefit of pedestrians, whilst street lighting on dual carriageways/motorways is solely for the benefit of traffic and could be better known as 'road lighting' as opposed to 'street lighting'.

Just a thought:(

Originally posted by markham
Just wondering whether the street lighting being on the central reservation, as opposed to the kerb/nearside, on the Parkway and motorways makes a difference as to how it effects the speed limit.


Not at all. Where it is, what colour it is, how bright it is - makes not one jot of difference! Its the mere fact that it is there that is important.

Originally posted by t020
I've never understood the streetlight rules


Come on - its not difficult!!!

But just for clarity I'll re-iterate it again.

If there are street lights present, unless it is posted otherwise (by way of a big sign initially and then a little repeater disk on every few lamp-posts) the speed limit is 30 mph.

If there are no street lights, unless it is posted otherwise (as above) the speed limit is 60 mph on a single carriageway and 70 mph on a dual carriageway.

These speed limits, by the way, only apply to cars - other limits apply to larger vehicles. And these rules do not apply to motorways, which are designated as 'special' roads.

If you want it from the horses mouth, go to http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103

What people should remember however is that speed limits are just that - limits. You should always drive at a speed that is appropriate for road and traffic conditions.

Not at all. Where it is, what colour it is, how bright it is - makes not one jot of difference! Its the mere fact that it is there that is important.

Sorry, Just being pedantic.

I think that the spacing of the lamps might be relevant?

Originally posted by Saxon

What people should remember however is that speed limits are just that - limits. You should always drive at a speed that is appropriate for road and traffic conditions.


Like 95mph on a motorway at night?

Originally posted by Saxon
Come on - its not difficult!!!

But just for clarity I'll re-iterate it again.

If there are street lights present, unless it is posted otherwise (by way of a big sign initially and then a little repeater disk on every few lamp-posts) the speed limit is 30 mph.

If there are no street lights, unless it is posted otherwise (as above) the speed limit is 60 mph on a single carriageway and 70 mph on a dual carriageway.


Ever since learning to drive I've always felt this street light rule is a mere cop out by the local authorities and Dept of Transport for not providing adequate signage. A 30 MPH limit should be clearly marked its a 30 MPH then there would be no confusion and simply no excuse for speeding in 30MPH zones and hence making a much safer environment for pedestrians and motor vehicles.

Originally posted by mega_monty
Ever since learning to drive I've always felt this street light rule is a mere cop out by the local authorities and Dept of Transport for not providing adequate signage. A 30 MPH limit should be clearly marked its a 30 MPH then there would be no confusion and simply no excuse for speeding in 30MPH zones and hence making a much safer environment for pedestrians and motor vehicles.


Well said. It's ok for driving instructors who have to teach the rules every working day of their life, but for everyone else a rule involving streetlighting and how far apart each light is positioned is just silly. Perhaps for residential sideroads, signage isn't necessary, but sometimes on main road (e.g. Ecclesall Rd, Ecclesall Rd South) signage would be very helpful and would stop any confusion/ excuses.

Originally posted by t020
Well said. It's ok for driving instructors who have to teach the rules every working day of their life, but for everyone else a rule involving streetlighting and how far apart each light is positioned is just silly.

Agreed you should be concentrating on your driving and whats ahead of you, rather than turning around and counting the distance between street lights. Most roads in this day and age have street lighting unless you're out in the sticks like in Derbyshire for example, so how the heck can the rule still apply properly.

This situation is even worse if your driving around in unfamiliar areas in other towns and cities, is it 30 MPH or is it 40 MPH etc if it was sign posted then there would be no confusion, simple.

Originally posted by t020
Perhaps for residential sideroads, signage isn't necessary, but sometimes on main road (e.g. Ecclesall Rd, Ecclesall Rd South) signage would be very helpful and would stop any confusion/ excuses.
So are you saying you don't know what the speed limit is on Eccy Rd ?

The law's easy, if you don't see big signs telling you that it's OK to do more than 30 mph, it isn't OK to do more than 30 mph
(unless you're on an unlit dual c/w, or motorway, blah, blah, blah).

If in doubt, try driving a little slower (and safer) until you are sure, lets face it, if you aren't sure, you're on a road you don't know, so a little restraint might be prudent anyway.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
So are you saying you don't know what the speed limit is on Eccy Rd ?

The law's easy, if you don't see big signs telling you that it's OK to do more than 30 mph, it isn't OK to do more than 30 mph
(unless you're on an unlit dual c/w, or motorway, blah, blah, blah).

If in doubt, try driving a little slower (and safer) until you are sure, lets face it, if you aren't sure, you're on a road you don't know, so a little restraint might be prudent anyway.


I do, but if I wasn't from Sheffield I might not. 30mph signage with repeater discs to cover for people joining part way along the road instantly wipe out any room for confusion and let the driver concentrate on driving rather than worrying about what the speed limit is, how quickly taxi drivers get up his backside (fun game - drive up and down Eccy Rd at night, especially at the weekend, and stick rigidly to, or just below, the 30mph limit..... enjoy the mad stunts pulled by the Lemming-like taxi drivers who get annoyed at driving at the limit for once, but remember to switch your rear view to anti-glare!), etc.

If in doubt - why be in doubt? Adequate signage would remove doubt and would hardly cost a lot of money.

Originally posted by t020
Perhaps for residential sideroads, signage isn't necessary, but sometimes on main road (e.g. Ecclesall Rd, Ecclesall Rd South) signage would be very helpful and would stop any confusion/ excuses.

You're hoping to get to 30 on Ecclesall Rd, that has to be a joke. :D

Originally posted by cgksheff
I think that the spacing of the lamps might be relevant?

The relevant law is the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984, sections 81, 86 and 89 plus schedule 6 of the same Act. These regulations are summarised in the Highway Code sections 103 & 104.

I'll post the link yet again - http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103

The distance between street lights makes no difference. I believe it used to at one time but not any more.

Originally posted by mega_monty
Ever since learning to drive I've always felt this street light rule is a mere cop out by the local authorities and Dept of Transport for not providing adequate signage. A 30 MPH limit should be clearly marked its a 30 MPH then there would be no confusion and simply no excuse for speeding in 30MPH zones and hence making a much safer environment for pedestrians and motor vehicles.

Surely you can understand that a street light is a 'sign' - and it means 30 mph unless its posted otherwise!!

Originally posted by t020
Well said. It's ok for driving instructors who have to teach the rules every working day of their life, but for everyone else a rule involving streetlighting and how far apart each light is positioned is just silly. Perhaps for residential sideroads, signage isn't necessary, but sometimes on main road (e.g. Ecclesall Rd, Ecclesall Rd South) signage would be very helpful and would stop any confusion/ excuses.

Originally posted by mega_monty
Agreed you should be concentrating on your driving and whats ahead of you, rather than turning around and counting the distance between street lights. Most roads in this day and age have street lighting unless you're out in the sticks like in Derbyshire for example, so how the heck can the rule still apply properly.

This situation is even worse if your driving around in unfamiliar areas in other towns and cities, is it 30 MPH or is it 40 MPH etc if it was sign posted then there would be no confusion, simple.

Driving involves more than just looking straight ahead - try scanning the pavements once in a while, looking for potential hazards such as children running out, pedestrians about to step onto the road, cars emerging from side roads and you might just also notice if there are any speed limit signs telling you its more than 30 mph.

How much simpler do you want it?? Its in black and white - you can obviously both read because you contribute to this forum so maybe its a lack of comprehension?

And driving in a strange town is no excuse - just because you're not in Sheffield or wherever doesn't mean that the law has changed.

In words of one syllable - if its more than 30 mph, there will be a BIG sign telling you that when the higher speed limit comes into force and then regular repeater discs on lamp posts.

Open your eyes and you will see them!!

Lamp Spacing

I'm sorry Saxon but I have now found it.

If you think about there had do be some definition of what "street lighting" is. One lamp in the middle of nowhere will not constitute "street lighting" with regard to speed limits.

It is contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, 1994
There is a definition that requires there to be a separation of the lights of not more than 183 metres (200yards in the old act). This would suggest that, in the absence of other signage,
if the lights are more than 200 yards apart then the 30 mph limit is not in force.

In practice, I am sure that all highway departments ensure that this spacing is not exceeded and so whenever we see a run of lamps we can be sure that the 30 limit applies (and I for one am not jumping out with my tape).


The definition can be found on the Department for Transport webpage http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_504746.hcsp

Originally posted by t020
If in doubt - why be in doubt? Adequate signage would remove doubt and would hardly cost a lot of money.
I'm not in doubt, you are.

I'm quite clear about it, street lights = 30 mph (unless something tells me otherwise, like a big sign, or that it's a motorway).

What I am unsure of, is why you find this so diffacult to grasp.

Originally posted by cgksheff
Lamp Spacing
It is contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, 1994
There is a definition that requires there to be a separation of the lights of not more than 183 metres (200yards in the old act). This would suggest that, in the absence of other signage,
if the lights are more than 200 yards apart then the 30 mph limit is not in force.


Thanks for that cgk.

There is a situatuion just like this as you come out of Hathersage back towards Fox House and Sheffield. If you look closely, there are actually signs saying that is is 30 mph but this is one of the rare ocassions.

And as you say, the councils will normally make sure that the lights are closer than 183 mtrs. I'm not going to jump out of the car with a tape measure either.

Simplest thing by far is to assume that if there are street lights, its 30 mph! I don't have a problem with this and don't see why anyone else should have.

Originally posted by foo_fighter

What I am unsure of, is why you find this so diffacult to grasp.

I don't, I understand it. But if I was in a city I'd never driven in before, I'd prefer to be able to see the speed limit as a sign, 30mph or otherwise. Nearly all roads have street lighting of some sort - how much can a few 30mph discs on main roads cost?

Originally posted by Saxon

Driving involves more than just looking straight ahead - try scanning the pavements once in a while, looking for potential hazards such as children running out, pedestrians about to step onto the road, cars emerging from side roads and you might just also notice if there are any speed limit signs telling you its more than 30 mph.

Don't forget checking the speedo every few seconds to ensure one doesn't drift a few mph over the limit and get flashed by some cop who should be catching real criminals.

Originally posted by Saxon

How much simpler do you want it?? Its in black and white - you can obviously both read because you contribute to this forum so maybe its a lack of comprehension?

Don't patronise me/us. It's not a lack of comprehension or understanding, it's a case of suggesting that there's room for improvement. Adequate signage would be an improvement since it would remove any room for doubt (which may occur under the current system). With an attitude like yours, we'd still be rubbing 2 sticks together to make a fire.

Originally posted by Saxon

And driving in a strange town is no excuse - just because you're not in Sheffield or wherever doesn't mean that the law has changed.

No, but it does mean that you have more things to worry about than usual - i.e. finding your way around, not getting lost.


Originally posted by Saxon

In words of one syllable - if its more than 30 mph, there will be a BIG sign telling you that when the higher speed limit comes into force and then regular repeater discs on lamp posts.

Open your eyes and you will see them!!

How condescending - do you speak to your pupils like that? By the way, I'd recount the syllables of "telling", "higher", "into", "regular", and "repeater" if I were you. ;)

It's not a case of not seeing them - there are often large gaps without repeater discs, the road will almost certainly have streetlighting, so what do you do if you join a main road during one of these large gaps? Tootle along at 30mph? Driving too slow is just as dangerous as driving too fast.

Originally posted by t020
How condescending - do you speak to your pupils like that? By the way, I'd recount the syllables of "telling", "higher", "into", "regular", and "repeater" if I were you. ;)

It's not a case of not seeing them - there are often large gaps without repeater discs, the road will almost certainly have streetlighting, so what do you do if you join a main road during one of these large gaps? Tootle along at 30mph? Driving too slow is just as dangerous as driving too fast.

No I don't speak to my pupils like that - only people (choosing my words carefully there) like you who want everything laid out on a plate for them.

And as for the second paragraph - you use commonsense. But then I suppose not all of us possess that.............

And yes I know what you mean about syllables. However its a well-known saying that I used.......refer to my previous paragraph!!

Originally posted by Saxon
No I don't speak to my pupils like that - only people (choosing my words carefully there) like you who want everything laid out on a plate for them.

And as for the second paragraph - you use commonsense. But then I suppose not all of us possess that.............

And yes I know what you mean about syllables. However its a well-known saying that I used.......refer to my previous paragraph!!


Not everyone has common sense though (and I'm not saying whether or not I do, that's not the issue here). Why are you so against such a minor change that would make driving clearer? Does your profession make you feel personally attached to all these little rules? I don't see why you have such a problem with councils placing a few extra 30mph discs on main roads with 30mph limits - it's hardly going to cost the Earth is it?

Its not a case of being attached to these 'little rules', as you put it.

But why make a change for changes sake - the rule really is quite simple to understand - its not rocket science.

And as for the cost - well we all know how much red tape that would involve and what that costs!!

Anyway I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

Originally posted by Saxon
Its not a case of being attached to these 'little rules', as you put it.

But why make a change for changes sake - the rule really is quite simple to understand - its not rocket science.

And as for the cost - well we all know how much red tape that would involve and what that costs!!

Anyway I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

It might not be rocket science, but it still leaves room for confusion at present, especially when driving in a city for the first time. I really can't imagine the costs being high either. Yes, we'll agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not sure how you can end up confused?
If there are no signs and there is streetlighting, it's 30. The absence of signs is just as easy to spot as the signs themselves, and streetlights are fairly conspicuous.

Maybe you're just arguing that someone people need better awareness skills.

Originally posted by t020
Nearly all roads have street lighting of some sort - how much can a few 30mph discs on main roads cost?
OK, some of these numbers are guesses, some are fact, but here goes:

IF a 30mph sign costs £30 manufactured and fitted, and IF an adequate number of additional signs were, say, every other lamp column (there are 65 000 lamp columns in Sheffield according to the council), then,

£30 x 65 000/2 = £975 000 (just for Sheffield)

How many other authorities are there, how much would this cost across the whole country if just Sheffield would spend nearly £1 million ?

OK, so the above isn't gospel, but it gives an idea of the scale of expense, compare that against the supposed confusion/misunderstanding concerned and I know where I *don't* want my tax money spending.

As mentioned earlier, I'd only apply it to main roads. Residential areas are obviously 30mph, no-one should be confused about that.

Originally posted by t020
As mentioned earlier, I'd only apply it to main roads. Residential areas are obviously 30mph, no-one should be confused about that.
Hmmm, now *you* are confusing *me*.

So, what's *your* definition of a *main* road, as opposed to a *residential* road.

NB. Don't forget, I might subject this definition to the same rigours as you have heeped on the previous problem, so if I speed on what you call a residential road, it's your fault, not mine (eg is a rat-run a main or residential, how do we define the difference).

Originally posted by Saxon
There are actually 3 national speed limits depending on where you are and the type of road:-

Road with street lights 30 mph
Road without street lights 60 mph
Dual carriageway without street lights 70mph

The following link refers.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103


LOL! A road WITHOUT streetlights gets a higher limit than one with ? that cant be right ... ? :S

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Hmmm, now *you* are confusing *me*.

So, what's *your* definition of a *main* road, as opposed to a *residential* road.

NB. Don't forget, I might subject this definition to the same rigours as you have heeped on the previous problem, so if I speed on what you call a residential road, it's your fault, not mine (eg is a rat-run a main or residential, how do we define the difference).


Main roads would have repeater discs; residential side roads and cul de sacs would only need a disc on entry to the road because I'm sure people joining the side roads from their drives will know the speed limit on their own road well enough.

Originally posted by _Fate_
LOL! A road WITHOUT streetlights gets a higher limit than one with ? that cant be right ... ? :S

Afraid so mate.. Uncanny eh!

Originally posted by Saxon
Surely you can understand that a street light is a 'sign' - and it means 30 mph unless its posted otherwise!!


No sorry a street light is not a sign, its a street light, a large post at the side of the road containing a light bulb that lights up when its dark! usually to light up the carriageway and footpaths, however they are sometimes conveniently used as posts for signs.

A sign is usually mounted on a post displaying information or warnings of immediate danger ahead, since when has a sign been used to illuminate the carriage way?

Driving involves more than just looking straight ahead - try scanning the pavements once in a while, looking for potential hazards such as children running out, pedestrians about to step onto the road, cars emerging from side roads and you might just also notice if there are any speed limit signs telling you its more than 30 mph.

Agreed but how are you supposed to do this, when you distracted by looking out for street lights and measuring the distances between them?

How much simpler do you want it??
It could be much much simpler if the correct information was displayed to drivers in first place i.e. a "SIGN" displaying the speed limit not a street light.

Originally posted by Saxon
Its not a case of being attached to these 'little rules', as you put it.

But why make a change for changes sake - the rule really is quite simple to understand - its not rocket science.


Its not about making changes for the sake of it, its making things easier and clearer to understand and being straight to the point of what speed limit being enforced.

Just because this silly street light rule has always been around it doesnt mean its the best way of getting information across, Do you expect all foreign drivers from other countries to understand or know this rule?

Originally posted by mega_monty
No sorry a street light is not a sign, its a street light, a large post at the side of the road containing a light bulb that lights up when its dark! usually to light up the carriageway and footpaths, however they are sometimes conveniently used as posts for signs.

Of course its a sign!! A sign is defined as something that gives you information - if you've got street lights, its a sign that the speed limit is 30 mph.

Agreed but how are you supposed to do this, when you distracted by looking out for street lights and measuring the distances between them?

Don't know about you but I don't have to 'look out' for street lights. You'd soon notice if they weren't there. And as has been posted previously, all street lights (at least in urban areas) are closer than the 185 metres so you don't even have to get your tape measure out! :loopy:

It could be much much simpler if the correct information was displayed to drivers in first place i.e. a "SIGN" displaying the speed limit not a street light.

I really can't get my head round the difficulty some people have with understanding the street lights rule. You don't even have to look for the signs if the road is lit!! You therefore have more time to look at whats coming up ahead.

Originally posted by t020
Main roads would have repeater discs; residential side roads and cul de sacs would only need a disc on entry to the road because I'm sure people joining the side roads from their drives will know the speed limit on their own road well enough.
Ah, but what about *link* roads, like maybe Dobcroft, that's not a cul-de-sac, so is it a side road (unsigned by your rules) or a main road (that should be signed), as not only residents drive down it.

Don't forget what I said, if I make a mistake on these roads it's your fault, you really must be clearer you know.

C'mon, properly defined rules please,

(I still think the existing rules are clearer than yours, BTW).

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Ah, but what about *link* roads, like maybe Dobcroft, that's not a cul-de-sac, so is it a side road (unsigned by your rules) or a main road (that should be signed), as not only residents drive down it.

Don't forget what I said, if I make a mistake on these roads it's your fault, you really must be clearer you know.

C'mon, properly defined rules please,

(I still think the existing rules are clearer than yours, BTW).


Ok then, repeater discs on every single road other than cul-de-sacs, where just the entrance would be signed. How clear is that? As for cost, your guesstimate figures are meaningless.

Should people who find the situation too confusing be driving in the first place????????

Originally posted by cgksheff
Should people who find the situation too confusing be driving in the first place????????


But what about tourists?

It appears we've only got 2 people who do find it confusing.:confused:

Originally posted by Clumber
It appears we've only got 2 people who do find it confusing.:confused:

it's their responsability to familiarise themselves with the laws of this land when visiting.

When driving on the continent we have to make do with things being done in kilometres, and having a variable speed limit on the motorway when it rains. I've taken the time to check in advance and know what to expect when driving in France, why shouldn't they do the same?

Originally posted by t020
Ok then, repeater discs on every single road other than cul-de-sacs, where just the entrance would be signed. How clear is that? As for cost, your guesstimate figures are meaningless.
Why is the estimate meaningless, the cost per sign is a fair (maybe even low estimate), the number of columns is fact, and you either accept spacings of every other column or suggest something else you'd find acceptable.

As I said previously, it gives an indication of the order of magnitude of the cost, which is significant. Even if I were out by a factor of 10 (which I'm not), £100 000 to do what you suggest (just for Sheffield) is hardly the paltry sum you suggested, and IF my figures are correct, do you think that the £1 million could not be spent better ?

Especially since this equates to £500 000 per confused person (as it stands at the moment).

I don't find it confusing because I am familiar with it, but at the same time I can understand why people will find it confusing, especially when driving in unfamiliar cities and towns or tourists from abroad. I don't think one sign every other streetlight would be at all necessary, just a few 30mph signs on roads that could be confused with 40mph roads. It's obvious we're never going to agree on this though, so let's not drag out the same arguments on and on and on.