Indirectly I came across an old fellow,who has since passed away.He spoke of a Wartime "Fake Sheffield" that was built on the roadside moors close to the Flouch pub/restaurant,just up from Stocksbridge.
This was a timber construction used as a decoy for German bombers.Does anybody know anything more.

Nothing specific although I had heard that this was a common ploy in cities that were mainly bombed by visual sighting of the target.

Here's a link from another local site about a similar operation to the West of town.

http://www.dorevillage.co.uk/doretodoorspr01/localhistoryspr01.htm

Some cities - Berlin, London, etc. were either too big or had large bodies of water or were on the coast - this made them easy to pick out on bombing radars. But smaller places often had to be picked up by sight after the guidance systems like the German Knicebein had got the bombers pretty close. A wood and canvas dummy might help in conditions of bad visibility, although given that Stocksbridge is to the North West I would have thought that it would be of limited use against aircraft coming in from the South...maybe the planes did a turn or something and bombed on the return loop.

Hope this helps a little.

Joe

the incident that my grandparents referred too when a whole stretch of woodland was bombed was apparently caused by lighting candles in the woodland to allow just a few glimers of light to escape during a nighting bombing raid.
How accurate my grandparents stories are I can't say.

These sites were codenamed "Starfish Sites". According to a book I've got about the blitz, decoy sites for Sheffield were set up somewhere between Strines and Fox House, and in Eckington Woods. The sites had large tanks of oil, tinfoil, lighting and equipment to mimic the sparks from the overhead power lines used my the trams. The site would be lit up when a raid was expected, and the lights gradually put out to resemble the city being blacked out after an air raid warning. The oil tanks would then be lit to look like fires from the bombing. In Sheffield's case they weren't effective because at the time of the blitz they weren't complete, but they were used with some success around other cities.
At the Fox House end of the old road to Ringinglow there are some concrete bases. These weren't a Starfish site but are the remains of an experimental 'radio unit', probably early radar.

My dad was an Miner / Fireman (AFS) during the war. He told me that the marsh meadows at Killamarsh (Now Rother Valley Country ParK) had decoy lights on to attract the bombers away from the steel works in Sheffield or maybe it was Brookhouse Colliery.

During the opencast mining of the marshes in the early 1970's a huge UXB bomb was dicovered there and detonated by the bomb squad. I lived opposite the site at the time, but was at work on St Marys Road in the city and I heard the explosion. from there.

it would be eckington woods that my grandparents were talking about as they live in eckingtong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lostrider
[B]My dad was an Miner / Fireman (AFS) during the war. He told me that the marsh meadows at Killamarsh (Now Rother Valley Country ParK) had decoy lights on to attract the bombers away from the steel works in Sheffield or maybe it was Brookhouse Colliery.

I think you might find that it was the coking plant at Beighton that the bombers were after (the Germans built it). They followed the river, but thankfully they dropped their bombs too early and did relatively little damage to any of the surrounding villages.

Indirectly I came across an old fellow,who has since passed away.He spoke of a Wartime "Fake Sheffield" that was built on the roadside moors close to the Flouch pub/restaurant,just up from Stocksbridge.

Newton Chambers who were producing Churchill tanks at the time, and were based in Chapeltown, was the intended target for the bombers.
I heard the same story about fake towns off my mom, makes sense.

ive read about this before on the internet and also seen it on tv.the government hired a famouse film producer from pine wood studios to make the illusion that a city was out there in the middle of nowhere,started off i think in southhampton then spread outwards to include all major cities,they also used captured spy codes to deceive germany by reporting bomb damage to intended targets,later an army unit was formed to create the illusion of cities in the middle of nowhere,not sure but i think the film directors name was selsneck he made a lot of propoganda war films at pinewood studios,the same thing happened in the dessert and at dover where cardboard trucks and tanks were created to form the illusion that england had thousands of tons of mobile equipment ready for the invasion

Does anyone have information on where the wartime installation was which was erected to divert enemy aircraft from the city?

Think it might have been on Houndkirk Moor and would only have been active during hours of darkness, when some lights and fires could have been illuminated to give an impression of a built up area from up above in a plane. Does anything still exist and does anyone have a grid ref.or any other means of locating it?

Interesting post cartav. I too would like to know more about this. Anyone know anything?

Also, on a similar wartime subject...

Someone once posted on here about an area of moorland near the back of the Fox House Inn, where wartime training for D day had occurred. Apparently US troops trained there with live ammo and grenades, and scars can be seen on the rocks where they went off.

Does anyone have a map grid reference for this area at all too ?

Thanks

There was a mini version of Hull docks built about 5 miles down the Humber from the real docks... I recall seeing a photo from the 1950's but I think the mini port is now filled in, can't find it on Google Earth or Local Live

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23528&highlight=decoy

My gran once told me that they went and lit candles in the woods near Eckington (adults, not children) as some sort of diversion for bombers.
Wasn't Sheffield only bombed a few times though?

I remember as a child visiting my great aunt and uncles pig farm. My mum told me that during the war the army took over the farm and had a fake Sheffield built on the land, in order to try to trick the bombers into dropping their bombs on it and hopefully missing the real Sheffield. Her aunt and uncle stayed on the farm, but had a shelter to go to when the bombs were dropping. It was somewhere out past Stocksbrdge, I think. Mum said it was very scarey for them.

There's quite a bit about the decoy on Houndkirk Moor in a book that came out recently - Sheffield's Golden Frame, by Bill Bevan, from Sigma Press. I went to the launch talk so know there's a fair bit in the book about it, but haven't read the book yet so don't quite know what!

Dear Sir,
A False Sheffield
The remains of the wartime decoy site mentioned in the last issue can still be seen on Houndkirk Moor on the eastern side of Houndkirk Road at map reference SK 276815.

About 200 metres from the Fox House end of Houndkirk Road you can see the foundations of the decoy unit's buildings. Continuing towards Sheffield the road (an un?metalled turnpike) crosses over a ridge then drops and bends slightly (good views over Sheffield and as far as Doncaster on a clear day). Further remains of the decoy site are on your right hand side: the rectangular dry stone wall which enclosed some trenches can still be seen, as can a roadway and turning circle for the army vehicles.

The trenches may have contained, as well as flashes to imitate furnaces and steam locomotives, a decoy tram line. This was a series of electrically induced flashes passing along the trench to simulate a moving tram's collector pole passing along the overhead wire.

These decoys could only be lit up before the bombers arrived. If a bombing raid began before the decoy site operators could be alerted and begin their work they were helpless, as once the enemy had located their targets, operating the decoys would simply have given the game away.

These sites exist in various parts of the country and there is an ongoing project to record them and list them for preservation. I have often wondered what it must have been like for the people who were stationed at these sites, making themselves a target and then huddling in their shelters as the bombs rained down close by. I guess they were just some of wartime's many unsung heroes.

Mick Savage
Ed. Mick Savage is the author of "The Mystery of Carl Wark", available from him on 236 9002


http://www.dorevillage.co.uk/doretodoorsum01/newsandcommentsum01.htm


http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=53.330111~-1.586516&style=a&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&encType=1

Surely from Fox House you can see the city from altitude anyway and all the lights. Obviously they worked, but how many of these beacons would have to be set up for it to make it look to the pilot they were hitting the real target and surrounding area for it to look like the city??:huh:

Don't forget that the city would have been 'blacked-out' and this was just supposed to look like the partial lights seen from the railway sidings or a furnace or a tram line.

The city would have been operating under blackout conditions so conceivably a smaller number of lights / fires could fool the bombers, however water features such as rivers & lakes really stand out on a moonlit night and they are very difficult to conceal, any trained aircrew could usually get a fix from them and bomb with reasonable accuracy.

In some cases the deception was took too far, Guy Gibson recounted in ‘Enemy Coast ahead’ the story of similar setup near a large industrial city in Germany that looked so artificial and bright that the briefing went something along the lines of ‘fly to the decoy town, then bomb 2 miles to the north-west to hit the real target.’

Maintaining the deception is always a problem; in one of Alfred Prices’s books he recounts an archetypical tale of a dummy RAF airbase complete with fake runways, buildings and fake hardboard aircraft. One day a German Ju88 dropped a bomb smack in the centre of the fake runway, it didn’t explode. When the “bomb” was examined it was found to be (a) made of wood and (b) contain a note that said “Bang!”

The woods between Mosborough village and Eckington were supposedly set up with lights etc to distract the bombers, if this is true or not I do not know, it was mentioned on a earlier reply to this thread about Eckington woods! I remember playing in the old shelter in the woods many years back. I know the shelter was blocked of years ago but don`t even know if it`s still there.

Quite recently, I heard a story that 'decoy' buildings, complete with lights, were erected on the hill at the rear of the former pub called 'The Haychatters' in Bradfield Dale.

There's mention on cgksheff's link to a similar thread of such a decoy site near Strines. Probably the same one.

The Sheffields pals battalion trained up at Redmires checkout Google earth & you will see the trench scars left on the hill above the reservoir when they learned how to dig trenches.

Great thread!

Deepak

Don't forget that the city would have been 'blacked-out' and this was just supposed to look like the partial lights seen from the railway sidings or a furnace or a tram line.

Yeah, its worth remembering that navigating the night skies of wartime Britain was a difficult task, even for the pilots of the Luftwaffe!

Out beyond Grenoside, where I used to live, there were countless bomb craters where lost/confused bomber pilots jettisoned their loads before heading home.

And of course we shouldnt forget that it was one such confused pilot who caused most infamous bombing of the Sheffield blitz, the bombing of the Marples.

Nazi pilots were given instructions to follow the river down into Attercliffe and attack the industrial targets there. On the night of the Marples attack, one bomber pilot became disorientated and instead mistakenly believed that the shine from the rain soaked tram rails running up through the Wicker was actually the river reflecting, and jettisoned his bomb load on the Marples below.

I have asked my dad about where my great aunts pig farm was, and he says it was out towards Penistone somewhere. He can't remember exactly. Mum told him that the family had a 4 minute warning to get the family out of bed and bundled into the shelter - my great aunt got psoriasis due to the stress during this time, which stayed with her for the rest of her life.

Nazi pilots were given instructions to follow the river down into Attercliffe and attack the industrial targets there. On the night of the Marples attack, one bomber pilot became disorientated and instead mistakenly believed that the shine from the rain soaked tram rails running up through the Wicker was actually the river reflecting, and jettisoned his bomb load on the Marples below.

Hardly a stray - the night (Thursday 12/12) the Marples was hit so was much of the Wicker, High street and the Moor. The whole raid had overshot the target - they came back on Sunday night and managed to get it mostly right :)

Hardly a stray - the night (Thursday 12/12) the Marples was hit so was much of the Wicker, High street and the Moor. The whole raid had overshot the target - they came back on Sunday night and managed to get it mostly right :)

Think we could ask them back to finish their job on the moor?:D

When the “bomb” was examined it was found to be (a) made of wood and (b) contain a note that said “Bang!”

Haha! The German's do have a sense of humour! :hihi:


.

There is a Google Earth KMZ file somewhere on the web with all these locations on. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:

Found a copy here:

http://s192798389.websitehome.co.uk/urbex/ww2sites.kmz

Excellent thread - It seems this forum has been a little lacking of these for too long. It would be interesting if there is a book or listing of all the known defences and decoys around Sheffield during WWII. The use of decoys was indeed commonplace, certainly giving the illusion of a town some distance from a real settlement has been documented across the UK but also as a previous poster mentions, decoy RAF airfields and military installations. I recall seeing pictures of inflatable tanks etc.

Was something similar also attemped to create a decoy Suez canal too? Involving miles of shiny material and lights to give the impression the canal was 2 miles offset to the real position??

Although not in Sheffield, there are some great reports and photos of recent visits to some of these old sites on www.28dayslater.co.uk

This document (http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/mftf/downloads/publications/FINALMftF_Burbage%20v6_27-07.pdf) contains quite a bit of information on the Burbage Moor sites. It also mentions some of the other locations.

Norton aerodrome was also (from memory) designed to look like a fully functioning airfield rather than just a ballon site, presumably as a further decoy.

Was something similar also attemped to create a decoy Suez canal too? Involving miles of shiny material and lights to give the impression the canal was 2 miles offset to the real position??

Wasent that Jasper Maskelyne, the wartime magician who managed to 'hide' the Suez Canal?

there was a programme on the BBC on one of their history series, about 2 years (?) ago, about the decoy hull docks. It was really interesting.

Regarding "decoys" in the Sheffield area, an elderly friend of mine was telling me an amusing story about a wartime "legend" regarding Steel, Peach and Tozer's "Seven Sisters" chimneys.

She grew up near SPT's works, and, to tease her as a child in wartime, she'd be sent outside, or to the window, to go and "count the chimneys".

Apparently, some days, there'd be five, or six, or even eight or nine chimneys...

She says that, to disguise SPT's very distinctive roofline, there would be false boardings erected around the chimneys to make two appear to be just one, or an extra false chimney or two put up to make it look like there were more in order to baffle the enemy bombers.

I seem to remember someone mentioning that "Lord Haw Haw" had said in one of his propaganda broadcasts, that there was an enemy attack planned on the "seven Sisters"

It was a really fascinating tale she told!

Part of our Army training (mid-east 1950 -53) was to lay out fake anything,rubber guns tanks etc all cover with netting, we set up 400miles south in the desert which is a very long way in sand,I can't quite remember the name of the pilot who broke the sound barrier in his "Hunter" (was it Duke) but he & his three buddies took 4 min to find and destroy us by showering us with toilet paper well that came in handy:hihi::hihi::hihi:

Don't forget that the city would have been 'blacked-out' and this was just supposed to look like the partial lights seen from the railway sidings or a furnace or a tram line.

I still dont get this, would they ask people to turn there lights out at a certain time so these beacons would/could fool the Luftaffe, surely in a surprise attack your stumped with no time to respond. I know Sheffield took a few big hits during the war but what was the success ratio of this brilliant piece of inginuity?

Best thread on the forum by a country mile.:thumbsup:

I grew up in post war Sheffield believing that the Sheffield blitz did so much damage to the city shopping core because the allies had broken the German communications code and had advance warning that the blitz was coming. Rather than reveal that the code had been broken, the steelworks were told lights out, shops were told to leave their lights on and take the hit. In other words, the shopping district served as a decoy to the more valuable steel works. The lesser of the evils. Anyone know if there was any truth to this?

I still dont get this, would they ask people to turn there lights out at a certain time so these beacons would/could fool the Luftaffe, surely in a surprise attack your stumped with no time to respond. I know Sheffield took a few big hits during the war but what was the success ratio of this brilliant piece of inginuity?

Best thread on the forum by a country mile.:thumbsup:

spruce,

The blackout was enforced pretty much en-bloc, nationwide, in order that the enemy planes could not identify where they were flying over. Of course this didn't help a great deal, in the event of a clear night/ full moon.

As soon as dusk began to fall, as far as was practical, all lights were extinguished or sheilded, so as not to attract attention. Windows were covered with thick material which prevented any light escaping. Air raid ardens would patrol streets, not just to observe for enemy aircraft, but also to ensure that the blackout was observed, and people were subjected to fines if they persisted in letting light show.

My gran once told me that they went and lit candles in the woods near Eckington (adults, not children) as some sort of diversion for bombers.
Wasn't Sheffield only bombed a few times though?Sheffield suffered two major raids on December 12th and 15th 1940. There were several minor raids before and after with either few or no deaths. I can remember bombs falling around Templeborough just before the blitzes which shattered a lot of windows, but no injuries. The Germans resorted to single low level fighter bomber attacks but not around Sheffield. No V1 or v2 episodes.

Spruce, the blackout was in place daily, but I don't think that these sites were especially scientific, just fingers crossed decoys.

It seems that there were a few of these Starfish sites around Sheffield, including another at Thorpe Salvin and one in the north. It's a fascinating idea and when you've seen the ground from a few thousand feet up it's easy to realise why they thought it might just work.

It wasn't just the front line that won the War.

Hardly a stray - the night (Thursday 12/12) the Marples was hit so was much of the Wicker, High street and the Moor. The whole raid had overshot the target - they came back on Sunday night and managed to get it mostly right :)There was a theory that the stick of bombs that destroyed the Marples also set fire to Walsh's. That set fire to some trams parked there and those fires acted as a beacon to the other raiders. There was very little damage to any steel works. Fitzalan Square and the Moor were not exactly strategic targets.

Sheffield suffered two major raids on December 12th and 15th 1940. There were several minor raids before and after with either few or no deaths. I can remember bombs falling around Templeborough just before the blitzes which shattered a lot of windows, but no injuries. The Germans resorted to single low level fighter bomber attacks but not around Sheffield. No V1 or v2 episodes.

Although, my mother always insists that one of her only memories of the Second World War was watching a doodlebug flying high over their houses (destination Manchester?)

Thanks muchly for answering my queries, if anyone can elaborate Id be very grateful.

Although, my mother always insists that one of her only memories of the Second World War was watching a doodlebug flying high over their houses (destination Manchester?)Yes that is true,I was sorry I never saw it but it would have made my day. I meant that none of them struck Sheffield. Manchester is on a direct flight line from the French coast over Sheffield.

Its doubtful how much these visual decoys would have been in protecting the city as by late 1940 the Luftwaffe was using specialist pathfinder units who had radio target finding aids called Knickbein and X-Garat. These were jammed by the British but this didn't always work. The pathfinder units would use these aids to find the target then drop markers which the following bombers would try to bomb their bombs on to.

Incidentally despite searching I have never come across any decent history of the air side of the Sheffield blitz. Has anyone ever come any book or document about this ? i.e which units were involved , losses , RAF nightfighter activity etc etc.

Yes that is true,I was sorry I never saw it but it would have made my day. I meant that none of them struck Sheffield. Manchester is on a direct flight line from the French coast over Sheffield.

The doodlebugs that flew over Sheffield on Christmas Eve 1944 were launched over the North Sea by modified Heinkel 111’s of 1/KG53.

My father told me that he saw two of them fly over in quick sucession on their way to their intended target of Manchester, (can anyone verify this?) you can check out more information about the air launced V1’s on this excellent site ( http://www.chrishobbs.com/beightondoodlebug1944.htm)

There is also a link to the Marples bombing (http://www.chrishobbs.com/marples1940.htm) including some interesting photos of old war damaged Sheffield.

The doodlebugs that flew over Sheffield on Christmas Eve 1944 were launched over the North Sea by modified Heinkel 111’s of 1/KG53.

My father told me that he saw two of them fly over in quick sucession on their way to their intended target of Manchester, (can anyone verify this?) you can check out more information about the air launced V1’s on this excellent site ( http://www.chrishobbs.com/beightondoodlebug1944.htm)

There is also a link to the Marples bombing (http://www.chrishobbs.com/marples1940.htm) including some interesting photos of old war damaged Sheffield.I never realized that they used aircraft to launch the V1s, so assumed they came drom the Calais/Dunkirk area. Certainly launching form the Lincolnshire coast would put them over Sheffield on their way to Manchester. The Marples photos and stories link were excellent. Thanks

I still dont get this, would they ask people to turn there lights out at a certain time so these beacons would/could fool the Luftaffe, surely in a surprise attack your stumped with no time to respond. I know Sheffield took a few big hits during the war but what was the success ratio of this brilliant piece of inginuity?

Best thread on the forum by a country mile.:thumbsup:

No, it was blacked out the entire time.
No street lights, no vehicle lights, no exposed flame outside, and blackout curtains in every window with blackout wardens walking the streets and checking.
Surely you've read stories about the blitz and the blackout?

The blackout:-

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/Homework/war/blackout.htm

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/nettsch/time/wlife.html

There was very little damage to any steel works. Fitzalan Square and the Moor were not exactly strategic targets.

They weren't targets at all - the pilots had overshot the target when the bombs were released. My grandfather was on night shift that night and had to walk all the way from Attercliffe common to Broadfield road in the morning.

No, it was blacked out the entire time.
No street lights, no vehicle lights, no exposed flame outside, and blackout curtains in every window with blackout wardens walking the streets and checking.
Surely you've read stories about the blitz and the blackout?You had to experience the blackout to know what it was like. The few cars that were around had their headlights hooded so that they only shone a few feet in front of them.There were many pedestrian deaths because of it. It lasted until 1944 after D Day, when the blackout was turned into the brownout . Then you were allowed closed curtain lights on, and it seemed like magic. The lights finally came back after VE day, but the austerity measures, the food and petrol rationing carried on into the fifties, sometimes even worse than during the war, conscription until 1959.

They weren't targets at all - the pilots had overshot the target when the bombs were released. My grandfather was on night shift that night and had to walk all the way from Attercliffe common to Broadfield road in the morning.We were on Attercliffe common that night. We were at the Pavilion watching Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers in the Broadway Lights of 1939 when the sirens went and spent the night in a shelter nearby while a big Irish dop stood at the top iof the stairs giving us a running commentary. We also walked into town on Friday to visit relatives in Abbeydale. long hard walk through all that debris, especially as the wardens would make you detour away from the worst parts, and the Moor was a shambles.

I wonder if snow affected the blackout during winter time? Would the city have been more visible if covered in snow?

My father told me that he saw two of them fly over in quick sucession on their way to their intended target of Manchester, (can anyone verify this?) you can check out more information about the air launced V1’s on this excellent site ( http://www.chrishobbs.com/beightondoodlebug1944.htm)

There is a crater on Margery Hill where one came down. I don't have my Peak District Air Wrecks book to hand to provide any further details though

I wonder if snow affected the blackout during winter time? Would the city have been more visible if covered in snow?


I would imagine that the reflected light from the layer of snow would , even during blackout conditions, be enough to illuminate the city to a certain extent.

I suppose the one saving grace would be that cloud cover enough for snow, would severely hinder any stategic bombing campaign.

ref CGKSHEFF of 3 Dec..... That's something like a response! Thanks!! I'd not realised this topic had been posted previously, next thing to do is get out the boots and head for Foxhouse. On a similar note, I can just remember a hut with either phone wires or electricity cables being sited at, about, grid ref 287825 to the west of the B road from Ringinglow to the A625. That was sometime after the war, but we always believed it to be allied to military activity.

In respect of Bibble's query of same date, I also remember that sections of Big Moor were closed off for public access until the Army had swept the area for unexploded munitions, and warning signs were erected along the A621 from Owler Bar up to the cross road junction at GR. 278740. Due to the proximity of the roads and the reservoir I'd be surprised if anything more lethal than blank ammo, thunderflashes and, maybe, smoke grenades or similar 2" mortar rounds were used there, maybe for Home Guard training rather than for the use of proper soldiers. There'd be other sites, too, as Totley ranges were always full of troops.

I wonder if snow affected the blackout during winter time? Would the city have been more visible if covered in snow?

The first ‘starfish’ sites was ignited just 10 days previously on the night of 2nd Dec 1940 during an attack on Bristol, apparently they were quite successful and collected a total of 66 bombs, from then on they became a regular feature of the British passive defences.

However it’s doubtful whether the ‘starfish’ sites around Sheffield would have deflected many of the bombers; conditions for visual bombing were perfect. There was an almost full moon in a cloudless sky and a keen frost had whitened the roofs.

However, the Luftwaffe also had a radio location device that enabled them to ‘ride in’ on a radio beam, known as X-Gerät , it professed an accuracy of 120 yards and demonstrated its effectiveness during the devastating raid on Coventry on November the 14th, 1940.

The X-Gerät system was only discovered the previous August, it operated in the 70 megacycles band and there were no ‘off the shelf’ transmitters that could counter it, at the time of the Coventry attack there were only four hastily modified army radars, code named ‘bromides’ that transmitted ‘masking pulses’ to disrupt the system – unfortunately the pulses were transmitted on the wrong frequency so the bombers had no problems finding Coventry. The British discovered this when they examined a shot down bomber and quickly adjusted the frequency.

I’ve seen other sources that say the beam was ‘bent’ by the bromide transmitters, thus saving the East end steelworks at the expense of the city centre. I think this is unlikely for a number of technical reasons, not the least of which was the scarcity of the ‘bromide’ transmitters, also in interviews with German aircrew after the war they state that the city centre was one of the targets they were trying to hit.

For anyone that is interested there is a website about the battle of the beams HERE (http://s110605900.websitehome.co.uk/beams/beampage.htm)

There is also some further information about Sheffield’s starfish sites on the
SHEFFIELD HISTORY WEBSITE (http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=1227)

To anyone contemplating further research about electronic counter measures during World War 2 I can recommend two books “Instruments of Darkness” ( http://www.amazon.com/Instruments-Darkness-History-Electronic-1939-1945/dp/1853676160) by Alfred Price and
“Most Secret War” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Victor_Jones ) by Dr R. V. Jones

Great thread!

Theres lots of bomb craters in the Lady Cannings plantation

I guess this explains why

(I thought Germans were rubbish at dropping bombs till I read it)

Deepak

The craters in the plantation are bell pits (old coalmines). However, there is a row of bomb craters just across the road, between the road and Brown Edge Quarries. They weren't aimed at the decoy as it wasn't ready for use when Sheffield was blitzed, they were just jettisoned, presumably by a crew who wanted to head for home sharpish!

However, there is a row of bomb craters just across the road, between the road and Brown Edge Quarries. They weren't aimed at the decoy as it wasn't ready for use when Sheffield was blitzed, they were just jettisoned, presumably by a crew who wanted to head for home sharpish!

I read the RAF noticed the same thing happening when they bombed Germany in that a jumpy crew would drop their bombs to early and other crews would drop their bombs on the fires that resulted. Another jumpy crew would come along and drop even earlier and so on. They called this creep back. The solution was to have a number of special pathfinder aircraft circling the target who arrived after the main pathfinders. These were called the backers up and would look out for creep back and go in and remark the correct target again to make sure the main force stayed on target. In addition the target would also be being circled by RAF electronic jamming aircraft and intruder nightfighters would be circling the Luftwaffe nightfighter bases hoping to shoot a few down. Also the main force might consist of a 1000 Lancasters,Halifaxs and Stirlings.

When the Luftwaffe came to Sheffield there would have been a couple of pathfinder HE111's then a 100 or so main force HE111's and nothing else. So there is no wonder they weren't that accurate really.

Haha! The German's do have a sense of humour! :hihi:
.
Not the only ones.

There is an excellent book entitled "B17s over Berlin", which I am not sure is still in print or not, which is a compilation of tales by Americans operating out of Britain . They are probably the only Americans I've ever had the utmost respect for, as this book had be laughing and crying at the same time.

One squadron brought back a donkey , from a mission on which they had refulled in North Africa, and it became their mascot and was used to give local childeren from round their base rides.

Sadly the poor creature failed to survive an East Anglian winter, and died of distemper.

Having promoted the deceased animal to officer level; they dressed it up in the appropriate uniform and gave it the necessary dog-tags; and then parachuted it into Berlin on their next mission!

There was a large decoy operation on the flightpath into Sheffield, between Todwick, Swallownest and Kiveton. Dozens of local people went up each night to light small fires, burn lamps, etc. etc.

It worked to a degree, as kids were sent out each morning to collect the spent incendaries -they can remember having to make several trips to the local chapel with armfuls of the things.

ref. kivwahistory...post 63.

Sounds a bit dubious for locals to be lighting fires & lamps during the blackout. Anybody so engaged would have been in trouble with the law when even a chink of light from behind a carelessly drawn curtain brought screams of "Put that light out!" And collecting incendaries? If they'd ignited there wouldn't be much left... a tail fin perhaps at the most & that was unusual. If they hadn't ignited they were still dangerous & would be left alone for the attention of the UXB squad or someone that knew about those things. Apart from the blitz of Dec 1940, bombing was spasmodic and more likely to be the odd HE rather than a load of incendaries. Sorry to be cynical, but it sounds like an urban myth rather than a proper recollection of what it was like in the 2WW. Worth checking the facts before writing it up as gospel!

Hi Cartav,

Those who were involved in the decoy were hand-picked locals and the LDV, as far as I'm aware. Similarly, it was in open fields away from the village.

Lads did collect the incendiaries, which, as you point out, were mostly just tailfins.

There was spasmodic HE bombs locally, of which four landed on the local colliery, which stood to while the UXB squad defused them over several days. I'm talking to a few colleagues at the moment about German bombing of collieries, or rather lack of it - your ideas would be welcomed.

None of this is an urban myth - I promise! 'Urban myths', the construction of collective memories and how these are transmitted in an oral history context are things that I've been studying for a while.

Seriously, I've spoken to dozens of people who were involved from different sides, including local volunteers, LDV and lots of the teenagers who went out collecting. I've also seen the remains of the incendaries, a fair few of which are still in garages in the village!

Check out the Village Life section of our people's museum and scroll through to image 44, although I'm not sure if this is an incendiary or something similar.

Could you give us the link to this museum please?

It's the one in my signature: www.kivetonwaleshistory.co.uk

It is at the testing stage and we've got some issues with Firefox at the moment.

I can confirm that bombs dropped in the Pit Yard. My father was a miner and member of the AFS based at Kiveton Pit. He told me one of the UXB's dropped and buried itself in a spoil heap and one fell next to the pit shaft. The mine was closed while they were dealt with. He also dealt with a doodle bug which fell near Killamarsh / Holbrook and dug a trench towards a farm before coming to rest.

Thanks. I've just seen another thread where some are saying it is slow to load but it has come up fine for me. I will give it a good 'looking at'.

It's the one in my signature: www.kivetonwaleshistory.co.uk

It is at the testing stage and we've got some issues with Firefox at the moment.


Very interesting Kiv .

Thanks. I've just seen another thread where some are saying it is slow to load but it has come up fine for me. I will give it a good 'looking at'.

Hi Cat - It's not slow to load if you've got broadband, it's just that it's not working on Firefox at the moment.

Incidentally despite searching I have never come across any decent history of the air side of the Sheffield blitz. Has anyone ever come any book or document about this ? i.e which units were involved , losses , RAF nightfighter activity etc etc.

Most if not all Luftwaffe raids on Sheffield were in the first two years of the war when our nightfighter capability was poor,ie a few Defiants and Blenheims mainly relying on ground guidance.
Therefore the German losses over the city itself were nil as most interceptions took place in coastal areas on the way in or out.
I am not sure what RAF night fighter units were in the Yorkshire area at that time,I can tell you which Luftwaffe units were involved in the Sheffield raids though if you still wish to know.

Most if not all Luftwaffe raids on Sheffield were in the first two years of the war when our nightfighter capability was poor,ie a few Defiants and Blenheims mainly relying on ground guidance.
Therefore the German losses over the city itself were nil as most interceptions took place in coastal areas on the way in or out.
I am not sure what RAF night fighter units were in the Yorkshire area at that time,I can tell you which Luftwaffe units were involved in the Sheffield raids though if you still wish to know.

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Not all Defiants & Blenheims.........Guy Gibson's book "Enemy Coast Ahead" briefly mentions the bombing of Sheffield when he was posted to 29 Sqn. for night fighter operations. An extract from his log book shows he was, indeed, on Blenheims in November 1940, but by 1st Dec., (before the Sheffield blitz, but only just) he was taking Beaufighters up. One must assume that more experienced members of 29 Sqn would have converted to Beaus before Gibson, as a new boy, was allowed near one. In Gibson's case, success seems to have been minimal due to deficiences with early ground control systems & problems with the RT.communications.

I am not sure what RAF night fighter units were in the Yorkshire area at that time,I can tell you which Luftwaffe units were involved in the Sheffield raids though if you still wish to know.

Yes I would be very interested to know and I think a few others on the forum would be as well. Thanks for all your help with this.

Yes I would be very interested to know and I think a few others on the forum would be as well. Thanks for all your help with this.

OK just give me a day or two as it is not info that I have immediately to hand.
I'll have to check through the various Airfleet and Kampfgeschwader operational records etc for 1940.
I'm working tomorrow but I'll try and reply by monday evening.

Yes I would be very interested to know and I think a few others on the forum would be as well. Thanks for all your help with this.

.................................................. ..........

I fed "Lincolnshire night fighters 1940" into Google and was inundated with info on RAF units & a/c fro BE2c.s to,Tornados. Takes some ploughing through, but what you want is probably there somewhere!

AT the beginning of December 1940 the O.K.L. (Luftwaffe high command),had the following units at it's disposal for use in the night offensive over the UK :

Kampfgeschwader 1 "Hindenburg" Heinkel 111
KG 3 "Blitz" Dornier 17
KG 26 "Löwen" He 111
KG 27 "Boelke" He 111
KG 30 "Adler" Junkers 88
KG 51 Edelweiß He 111
KG 54 "Totenkopf" He 111
KG 55 "Greif" He 111
KG 76 "Florian Geyer" Do 17 and Ju 88
KG 77 Ju 88

These were later joined by

KG 2 "Holzhammer" Ju 88 and
KG 53 "Legion Condor" He 111

Most of these units were involved in raids over the north at some time or another.I have not yet checked out which were involved in the Sheffield blitz attacks but here are some details of later raids :

On March 14 1941 117 aircraft targeted Sheffield and KG 55 lost two Heinkels on this raid,though both came down well to the south of the city.
I believe there was also a light raid in April but as yet have no more details.
On the night of May 8th there was another large raid and in his excellent (and cheap !) book "Broken Eagles",Bill Norman mentions the following losses over the UK that night of aircraft raiding Sheffield.
KG 55 lost an He 111 which came down at Long Riston,KG 53 lost two Heinkels,one crashing at Spurn Point and the other at Patrington.
All these aircraft were shot down by Boulton Paul Defiants of 255 Sqn from Kirton in Lindsay.
They also claimed a Ju 88 of Kampfgruppe 806 but German records show that this aircraft,which had also been on the Sheffield raid,was only lightly damaged.
Of course by this time most bomber units were being transferred east to take part in the attack on the Soviet Union.
By late June only III KG 26,all of KG 40 (an anti shipping unit), and KGr 606 remained in France,with II KG 2 in Norway.

Both of Bill Norman's books are good references as are the "Kampfflieger" series.
The best of all is perhaps the excellent "The Blitz then and now" vol 2 from After the Battle publications.
This book covers the period from September 7 1940 until May 10 1941 in great detail and is packed with information.Unfortunately, a friend has borrowed my copy.
It is not cheap at 45 pounds but is a great book. www.afterthebattle.com/blitz.html
I will add more information as I find it,

cheers,

BB..

Hello

Big thanks to BB for his most detailed reply. Incidentally was there any KG 100 involvement at all in the Sheffield raids ? or as a specialist unit were they not listed.

I remember my Grandmother telling me about a single German aircraft attacking Sheffield in a daylight raid later in the war and it flying over the area that is now the University sports centre. However her memory could be less than reliable at times.

If anyone is interested, the Local Studies Library has one of the original Luftwaffe target maps for the Blitz on Sheffield

Hello

Incidentally was there any KG 100 involvement at all in the Sheffield raids ? or as a specialist unit were they not listed.


Good question.

KG 100 as a semi-secret pathfinder unit were probably simply left off the order of battle.As were KG 200 later in the war,taking orders directly from O.K.L. and O.K.W. rather than local commanders.
I will try and find out if KG 100 led any of the Sheffield raids as target markers,I assume that they did as both X-gerät and the updated Y-gerät were used to target Sheffield in late 1940 and early 1941.

On the nights of the two raids decoys would have been of no use because both nights were clear as day, the Germans simply followed the river Humber to Goole then dead reckoning to Sheffield. The river system from a map would confirm the position of the city since they would show up like silk ribbons. There was no effective defence, no dog fights the Germans had it all their own way since cities were a prefered target from our point of view.

Hitler was conned by Churchill in that the Germans were winning by bombing the airfields so Churchill ordered a raid on Berlin, this put Hitler in an awkward position because he had said it was impossible. In order to gain some respect he ordered the Bombing of London and other major cities which is exactly what Churchill wanted. Hence the Battle of Britain was able to stop the Germans from dominating the air and stopped the inevitable invasion. Hitler had lost the war in 1943 by invading Russia but he had little choice since his oil supply from the M.E was scuppered by the British 8th Army in North Africa. The only reason the landings in France was carried out was to stop Russia from getting too far west, a second front was never needed since we would have sandwiched the Germans eventually .

On the nights of the two raids decoys would have been of no use because both nights were clear as day, the Germans simply followed the river Humber to Goole then dead reckoning to Sheffield. The river system from a map would confirm the position of the city since they would show up like silk ribbons. There was no effective defence, no dog fights the Germans had it all their own way since cities were a prefered target from our point of view.

Hitler was conned by Churchill in that the Germans were winning by bombing the airfields so Churchill ordered a raid on Berlin, this put Hitler in an awkward position because he had said it was impossible. In order to gain some respect he ordered the Bombing of London and other major cities which is exactly what Churchill wanted. Hence the Battle of Britain was able to stop the Germans from dominating the air and stopped the inevitable invasion. Hitler had lost the war in 1943 by invading Russia but he had little choice since his oil supply from the M.E was scuppered by the British 8th Army in North Africa. The only reason the landings in France was carried out was to stop Russia from getting too far west, a second front was never needed since we would have sandwiched the Germans eventually .

************************************************** ***
Come off it mate! You've just about re-written the history of the 2ndWW!
Where did you get all this? Expect some flak from others!

BayernBlade, I was stationed at Hildesheim in 1965 with the Artillery although I was R. Sigs. it was one of the best postings in Germany I thought, nice town and easy access to Hanover.

On the nights of the two raids decoys would have been of no use because both nights were clear as day, the Germans simply followed the river Humber to Goole then dead reckoning to Sheffield. The river system from a map would confirm the position of the city since they would show up like silk ribbons. There was no effective defence, no dog fights the Germans had it all their own way since cities were a prefered target from our point of view.

Hitler was conned by Churchill in that the Germans were winning by bombing the airfields so Churchill ordered a raid on Berlin, this put Hitler in an awkward position because he had said it was impossible. In order to gain some respect he ordered the Bombing of London and other major cities which is exactly what Churchill wanted. Hence the Battle of Britain was able to stop the Germans from dominating the air and stopped the inevitable invasion. Hitler had lost the war in 1943 by invading Russia but he had little choice since his oil supply from the M.E was scuppered by the British 8th Army in North Africa. The only reason the landings in France was carried out was to stop Russia from getting too far west, a second front was never needed since we would have sandwiched the Germans eventually .

You are getting confused between The Battle of Britain which took place during the summer and autumn of 1940 where airfields were attacked in its initial phases and The Blitz which took place between September 1940 and May 1941. This thread is about the decoys to divert bomber from the England's major manufacturing cities.

The war in the western desert was fought in North Africa 1940 to May 1943 and not in the Middle East and was started by the Italians who had Libya as a colony the war was fought to defend the Suez Canal and not oil.

If we had not started a second front, which clearly put a quick end to the war, then the Germans would have most likely have had the time to developed the nuclear bomb. It already had the means to deliver it so the second front was an absolute necessity.

Operation Starfish would have made very little impact against a nuclear attack.

BayernBlade, I was stationed at Hildesheim in 1965 with the Artillery although I was R. Sigs. it was one of the best postings in Germany I thought, nice town and easy access to Hanover.

A mate of mine was in the RA here,Michael "Nobby" Clarke,he was here forty odd years ago and is still here now.Don't suppose you know him ?

Of course there were British soldiers stationed in Hildesheim DURING WWII as well.
The infamous "British Free Corps" of the Waffen SS were stationed at the St Michael's monastry between February and October 1944.
We made a documentary about them a few years back called "The Brits who fought for Hitler" for the history channel.