LONDON (Reuters) - Teenagers and young adults who frequently use cannabis are increasing their risk of suffering from psychotic symptoms such as bizarre behaviour and delusions later in life, Dutch scientists say.

Young people with a family history, or pre-existing susceptibility to mental instability, are particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of the drug.

"Cannabis does not act in the same fashion on psychosis risk for everybody. There is a group that is particularly susceptible," Professor Jim van Os, of Maastricht University in the Netherlands, told a news conference on Wednesday.

He and his colleagues studied 2,437 young people aged 14-24 and identified those with a predisposition for psychosis. They also questioned them about their cannabis use and followed them up for four years.

"The results show that in the group without vulnerability to psychosis, there was a small effect of cannabis on the onset of psychotic symptoms four years later," Van Os said.

"But this risk was four times bigger in individuals who had a personal vulnerability to psychosis."

Van Os said the study also showed the odds of experiencing symptoms of psychosis were higher for people who smoked cannabis more frequently.

The findings, which are reported online by the British Medical Journal, are consistent with the results of other studies.

Doctors do not understand how cannabis increases the risk of mental illness but they suspect it affects the dopamine system in the brain which is associated with pleasure.

Source:
click here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041201/325/f7oxa.html)


Discuss....

I agree, think it is more harmful than people make out... still not as bad as alcohol or tobacco though. Maybe people should have the choice if they want to legally damage themselves?

Originally posted by Snook
I agree, think it is more harmful than people make out... still not as bad as alcohol or tobacco though. Maybe people should have the choice if they want to legally damage themselves? Totaly agree people should have a choice.

I agree that it seems a lot more dangerous than a lot of people (mainly cannabis users) accept. (I can see the effects it has had on some of my friends who have used it.)

I don't agree with the arguments that it is best to legalise it simply because tobacco and alcohol are already legal. If you think cannabis is less dangerous than tobacco and alcohol, then maybe you should be trying to get those two banned rather than trying to get cannabis legalised.

I personally believe that cannabis is far more dangerous than either tobacco or alcohol.

Originally posted by Bikertec
Totaly agree people should have a choice. i lived in amsterdam for 2 years in the 70,s india for 6 months goa +covlam... there was an ashram in goa ran by old englishman..a follower of iyenga yoga,who used take care of the drug casulties dumped there by there so called friends when they got to hard to handel ,nearly all the results of grass or hash all quite mad,no coming back for most of them. one of the girls helping out there told me the thing that most of them had in common were bad emotional problems with there parents.same in amsterdam the ones with drug probs were use"ly middle class[the ones that have the emotional games played on them by there parents]out of all the nationalitys i found the germans and the french the worst [full of extremes]as an old indian bloke said to me one day when we were approached by a german hippie ..here comes another german officer out of uniform....as for choice..peer pressure among kids and teens,your suddenly pretty lonley if u don,t follow the crowd..

The skunk that most dope smokers smoke these days is crazy strong - much more like a class A drug, I'm not surprised people go mad.

This feeling has been around for some years. I think it initially came up with regard to the number of black youths who exhibited signs of schizophrenia after smoking a lot of dope, but the study couldn't determine whether it was a genetic pre-disposition in the black community towards schizophrenia or whether it was drug triggered.

I guess there's also the argument from the other perspective - are people with a tendency towards mental health problems more likely to indulge in drugs use?

Oddly enough, whilst I don't grumble too much abut secondary cigarette smoke, I object INTENSELEY to second hand dope smoke. I guess I can handle the possibility of cancer more easily than I can handle the possibilty of my dopaine levels beig mucked up...:)

Joe

SKunk now is very strong,

when they talk about canabis make u wonder if they used normal weed in the test, if so...... Skunk will rott ur brain!!!!!


anyway, my thoughts are that id rather talk to a stoned person, than a 6 pints every day after work drunk:gag:

y oh y is a substance that has no known castualtys illegal?????


dear oh dear..................

rant over, the voice's that stoped

Originally posted by DJ Ryu

y oh y is a substance that has no known castualtys illegal?????


rant over, the voice's that stoped

Without getting in to the rights or wrongs of it's illegality, there are casualties - it's just that they're mental and not physical.

We'll get similar headlines in a few years time about Ecstacy as well.

Joe

Originally posted by hatter
The skunk that most dope smokers smoke these days is crazy strong - much more like a class A drug, I'm not surprised people go mad.

To go mad though you would have to smoke as many joints as a typical smoker smokes cigarettes a day, talking like 20+ which just isn't possible for anyone with normal finances :P

I feel that aslong as you don't abuse it, similar to alcohol, it should be allowed for 18+.

I have to agree. Some people are predisposed to the negative affects of it, and how do you know if that will be you unless you test the theory?

I have seen many people in hospital due to cannabis alone, some recover and some don't. Recovery in hospital, sadly, is made possible with more drugs and chemicals, that are not pleasant either, for the patient.

Originally posted by ianmitchell
To go mad though you would have to smoke as many joints as a typical smoker smokes cigarettes a day, talking like 20- which just isn't possible for anyone with normal finances :P

I feel that aslong as you don't abuse it, similar to alcohol, it should be allowed for 18+.

That isn't true at all, it all depends on your genetic make up. Think of it like an allergy. Some people are allergic to strawberries in a big way that threatens their life and others are not.

Originally posted by bonny
That isn't true at all, it all depends on your genetic make up. Think of it like an allergy. Some people are allergic to strawberries in a big way that threatens their life and others are not.

Yeah I agree, so what shall we do- ban strawberries???

Originally posted by ianmitchell
Yeah I agree, so what shall we do- ban strawberries???

well people who are allergic to strawberries don't eat them do they??

How would you know that you could have a severe reaction to cannabis unless you test the theory, and Like I have said, some recover ......some don't!

If you want to push your mental health to it's limits then that is up to you, but it will be your family that suffer the most should the worst happen. I'm speaking from experience, are you?

Originally posted by bonny
How would you know that you could have a severe reaction to cannabis unless you test the theory, and Like I have said, some recover ......some don't!

If you want to push your mental health to it's limits then that is up to you, but it will be your family that suffer the most should the worst happen. I'm speaking from experience, are you?

Experience of me and my family suffering, from cannibis or some other drug?

No I have had no experience of that. Apologies if you have and if I'm offending you here :blush:

However, some people have reactions to alcohol and cigarettes- but I don't see us banning it.

Originally posted by bonny
well people who are allergic to strawberries don't eat them do they?? unless they don't know they are allergic.

I think allergy is the wrong choice of comparison. Surely most people understand predisposition.

Cannabis has been linked to mental health problems - namely certain forms of schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia. However most people who use the drug in moderation, as with alcohol or caffeine, just have a laugh and relax a bit. Nothing more.

You're all coming down very heavily, yet you're only using extreme examples - it's like only using alcoholics when debating the merits/flaws of alchohol. Take things in perspective.

I believe people should have the choice, as long as they don't harm others.

Originally posted by t020
"The results show that in the group without vulnerability to psychosis, there was a small effect of cannabis on the onset of psychotic symptoms four years later," Van Os said.

"But this risk was four times bigger in individuals who had a personal vulnerability to psychosis."


We've had this discussion before in previous threads.

People use this type of research to say cannabis causes mental disorders, but in actual fact the research shows that there is a link between cannabis bringing on mental disorders in people pre-disposed to mental disorders. The research shows there was little effect on people who aren't pre-disposed. And also the group without vulnerability showed, little effect on the onset of 'psychotic symptoms' as opposed to psychosis. Psychotic symptoms could mean anything! Perhaps a few started getting paranoid? This could be construed as a psychotic symptom, but is a common side effect and doesn't last. A symptom doesn't necessarily mean they have psychosis!

So many people who are anti cannabis say that it causes mental disorders and there is no evidence for this. This is wrong and falsey manipulating studies that show the link as above. People with a predispostion are more likely to exarcebate symptoms, simple as that.

So I think the real question is, why are people with a predispostion more likely to smoke cannabis? And smoke it frequently.

Often because they feel depressed, and think it will relieve it, often because they are the type of person who enjoys finding a high, the type of person who likes to open their mind by using drugs. Often an excuse, if they are going mad, better to take drugs and blame it on that then just admit they have a mental disorder.....

I think this study actually shows that the average joe is ok to smoke it. Its the people who have issues and mental disorder predispositions who should not smoke it. Who's in the majority? Yes...the average joe.

That article is sooooo badly written. I hate it when a journalist puts their slant on a scientific study. The first paragraph is the headline grabber and most people read that then turn off.


LONDON (Reuters) - Teenagers and young adults who frequently use cannabis are increasing their risk of suffering from psychotic symptoms such as bizarre behaviour and delusions later in life, Dutch scientists say.

Shock horror, never legalise it then.
But carry on reading...

Young people with a family history, or pre-existing susceptibility to mental instability, are particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of the drug.

ahhhh I see...phew! Unfortunately most people have already to come to the wrong conclusion.

Just trying to find some figures for the % of the population who actually have a predisposition to mental disorders.

I found a quote that 1% is often quoted as a percentage of the worlds population who has a predispostion to schizophrenia.
Anyone else find anything for the UK?

Anything to excess is bad... smoking, alcohol, even carrots.

I've no problem with people smoking dope - however it doesn't do anything for me.

But what can you really do for the people who obviously indulge a bit too much? It's their choice after all...

Originally posted by Foxxx

I found a quote that 1% is often quoted as a percentage of the worlds population who has a predispostion to schizophrenia.
Anyone else find anything for the UK?


You can read the original (unadulterated) article here:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/

Nomme

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
unless they don't know they are allergic.

I think allergy is the wrong choice of comparison. Surely most people understand predisposition.

I had mentioned predisposotion before saying allergy. The difference is that with a serious allergy you would know quickly Where as would you know you were reacting badly to cannabis? You would need to know the signs of oncoming mental illness (which can be slight in the begining) and if you had them already you would probably not acknowledge them as a danger.

If it were legalised where would those who support this suggest that it should be smoked. As they favour choice presumably they don't favour public places (or perhaps they do?).

I suppose it would have to be restriced to people's own houses. Even then, what about the anti-social problems caused by people 'high' on it?

The issue is more complicated than some people think.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
If it were legalised where would those who support this suggest that it should be smoked. As they favour choice presumably they don't favour public places (or perhaps they do?).

I suppose it would have to be restriced to people's own houses. Even then, what about the anti-social problems caused by people 'high' on it?

The issue is more complicated than some people think.

Anti social problems!!! Laugh? I nearly split my sides! Most people who have a bifter cant be bothered to be anti social!! Its the booze that makes idiots kick off cos they think they are Tyson...and usually end up in hossy with a busted ego!

Don't get me wrong, I think people should have the choice what substances to use to get by/get high. I know from experience that there is a huge difference between, say, your average resin (soapbar, nothing special- my drug of choice in moderation), and the skunk that's so easily available these days (it can be very psychoactive). I know a number of people with mental health problems (some serious) who smoke a great amount of skunk daily and I really don't think that can be doing them much good, and yet it's seen as totally acceptable among thier peers. When I have been unable to get resin it's all too easy to think 'ok I'll have a little bit of skunk' but in my case that is a huge mistake (one which I have learned from) because it does send me loopy in a most unpleasant way.

Originally posted by hatter
Don't get me wrong, I think people should have the choice what substances to use to get by/get high. I know from experience that there is a huge difference between, say, your average resin (soapbar, nothing special- my drug of choice in moderation), and the skunk that's so easily available these days (it can be very psychoactive). I know a number of people with mental health problems (some serious) who smoke a great amount of skunk daily and I really don't think that can be doing them much good, and yet it's seen as totally acceptable among thier peers. When I have been unable to get resin it's all too easy to think 'ok I'll have a little bit of skunk' but in my case that is a huge mistake (one which I have learned from) because it does send me loopy in a most unpleasant way.


Resin and "skunk" are the same....just that resin is watered down rubbish mixed with allsorts of crap like molten plastic, sand and rat poison..dont believe me?...ask your friendly local dealer!!
Thus the effects arethe same in the long run, so the argument that skunk messes up yer head more than block holds no water. Its just the immediate effects that are different..

Originally posted by Tony_BLiar
Resin and "skunk" are the same....just that resin is watered down rubbish mixed with allsorts of crap like molten plastic, sand and rat poison..dont believe me?...ask your friendly local dealer!!
Thus the effects arethe same in the long run, so the argument that skunk messes up yer head more than block holds no water. Its just the immediate effects that are different..

OK, here's the science bit, a quick search on google reveals the following-

Resin contains more CBD and CBN than fresh herb. CBN is prdouced when THC (the psychoactive element) oxidises, and CBD is present in greater quantities in the types of marijuana that are used to make solids. CBD generally has a sedative effect and can take the edge of a THC high, tending to relax rather than increasing anxiety and paranoia. CBN tends to make you feel sleepy or groogy.

But then I knew that anyway:)

Originally posted by slimsid2000
If it were legalised where would those who support this suggest that it should be smoked. As they favour choice presumably they don't favour public places (or perhaps they do?).

er in a licenced coffee shop.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
I suppose it would have to be restriced to people's own houses. Even then, what about the anti-social problems caused by people 'high' on it?

What anti-social problems are these? Do you mean someone perhaps walking around giggling, or someone having a conversation about the meaning of the universe, or perhaps someone eating crisps and chocolate bars?
Hardly anti-social behaviour. Please give some examples of this supposed anti-social behaviour.

Have you been watching Hollyoaks or something! :loopy:

If I were you, I'd be more concerned with the anti-social behaviour happening in town every friday and saturday night fuelled by booze.

Have you ever been to Amsterdam btw?

Anyone who needs to use drugs of any sort to make life interesting is some sort of nutter already!!!

Originally posted by little malc
Anyone who needs to use drugs of any sort to make life interesting is some sort of nutter already!!!

do you drink alcohol or coffee?

Originally posted by little malc
Anyone who needs to use drugs of any sort to make life interesting is some sort of nutter already!!!

Very profound....well done :loopy:

I would suggest that almost everyone, without exception, needs to use drugs to make life more interesting. Not that I agree with cannabis though.

Originally posted by Foxxx
What anti-social problems are these? Do you mean someone perhaps walking around giggling, or someone having a conversation about the meaning of the universe, or perhaps someone eating crisps and chocolate bars?

No its much worse than that.

Standing behind stoned idiots in a bus queue who can't count the change for the driver because they are laughing at the ticket machine so hard.

What all of this debate lacks though is research, due in no small part to prohibition.

Whatever the outcome - prohibition can not and will not be the answer.

mental health is a very subjective thing. sure, some people are bona fide crackers, find it difficult or even impossible to integrate into humanity, let alone society.

Their realities can be quite horrible. But some mental "problems" are merely nuances in reality between individuals. You start having mental "problems" the moment you start deviating from an ill-defined norm.

The phenomenon of predisposition to shizophrenia in young men, especially young black men is contentious.

Some research reports higher predispositions in ever 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants generally. Other research points to a predisposition on the part of the medics to diagnose it in young black men.

Get 12 mental health experts together in a room, from all over the world. See if they can agree on what it is they do - it's a slippery subject at the best of times.

There is a clear correlation between heavy cannabis use in individuals predisposed to schizophrenia and the onset of schizophrenia. There are some correlations between heavy cannabis users and the onset of schizophrenia, but there are no correlations between the estimated number of cannabis smokers and the number of diagnoses of schizophrenia - a reverse correlation one might expect, especially with the prevalence of cannabis product that "is so good it is virtually hallucinogenic" (S.Yorks police).

but until these correlations are backed up with some sort of causative investigation, they are just that.

Just a quick look at the latest thoughts on the aetiology of schizophrenia reveals it to be pretty fuzzy at the moment.

Originally posted by Sidla
I would suggest that almost everyone, without exception, needs to use drugs to make life more interesting. Not that I agree with cannabis though.
I just want to check something: Are you saying that drug users take drugs to make their lives more interesting OR that EVERYONE takes drugs to make their lives more interesting?

(Although it also depends on your definition of a "drug" and whether we're going as far as talking about having a cup of coffee as a pick me up!).

dont knock it til youve tried it comes to mind:confused:
do know someone that went a bit funny on smoking things:gag:
everything in moderation??

Originally posted by Lou
I just want to check something: Are you saying that drug users take drugs to make their lives more interesting OR that EVERYONE takes drugs to make their lives more interesting?
I am saying that everyone who takes drugs, wether legal or not (and lets face it, virtually everyone does), do it to enhance their life in some way.

Originally posted by Lou
I just want to check something: Are you saying that drug users take drugs to make their lives more interesting OR that EVERYONE takes drugs to make their lives more interesting?

I was just wondering what

"almost everyone, without exception" means :D

Eh? Did you mean to quote me or Sidla, as I didn't say "almost everyone, without exception".

his post made me wonder too, just I wondered what he meant with "Almost Everyone without exception".

You were wondering what he meant with the rest of it.

Sidla mate - you need to express yourself more clearly :D

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
his post made me wonder too, just I wondered what he meant with "Almost Everyone without exception".

You were wondering what he meant with the rest of it.

Sidla mate - you need to express yourself more clearly :D

I can't quite get my head around "Almost Everyone without exception" either... makes my head hurt.

I don't think that people NEED drugs in their lives, but just about every one, WITH some exceptions, have drugs in their everyday life.... Hard drugs, soft drugs, alcohol, tabacco, caffine, asprin... and so on.

Yeah, sorry, didn't really think that one through. Sure you catch my drift though.

Initially you said that people NEED to take drugs to make their lives more interesting, now you are saying that it is a REASON for taking drugs.

The first statement suggests that taking drugs is the ONLY way to make your life more interesting, the second suggests it is one OPTION to make your life more interesting.

I would agree with the second statement but not the first.

Originally posted by Foxxx
er in a licenced coffee shop.

Or in the comfort of a warm armchair!

Originally posted by Foxxx
Have you been watching Hollyoaks or something! :loopy:

RONTFLMAO!! That has got to be one of the most unrealistic representations of drug use ever seen. Even my GP thought it was funny!!

Originally posted by Yodameister
Initially you said that people NEED to take drugs to make their lives more interesting, now you are saying that it is a REASON for taking drugs.

The first statement suggests that taking drugs is the ONLY way to make your life more interesting, the second suggests it is one OPTION to make your life more interesting.

I would agree with the second statement but not the first.
I didn't really express myself very well. I have a habit of this.

I didn't mean that people NEED to take drugs, because this is obviously not true. I meant that most people take drugs to enhance their life.

i have never smoked, never taken any drugs (except minor occasions for illness) and hardly drink. if it enchances your life then its only for a short period and then you will just have further to fall back down to how you were feeling before hand.

i dont care what people take as long as its their decision and they dont come whinging if it becomes a problem.

only thing i have that can be classed as drug is a couple of paracetomal a month and chocolate :) mmmmmmm chocolate

oh and the old `dont knock it til you've tried it' line......well has any1 licked a dogs bumhole before?...might be good...who knows?...blah!..

Originally posted by MTheo
oh and the old `dont knock it til you've tried it' line......well has any1 licked a dogs bumhole before?...might be good...who knows?...blah!..
only a strange person would think of that example!!:hihi:
we are 2005 and should be open minded, everything within reason and nothing should be abused

I am sure that if you look hard enough you will find people who have licked dogs bums.

The mention that if we need drugs to enhance our lives, then we were already nutters must have been coming from a nine year old.

I got the gist of what Sidla was saying and happen to agree.

Without experimentation, would we not still be living in caves and eating each other?

Originally posted by venger


Without experimentation, would we not still be living in caves and eating each other?

That is if we had not have experimented with the opposite sex.

i am a strange person natalie :D

that is even part of my email address.....hmmmm do you know me? im now suspicious :suspect:

ahhh well back to the topic...i shall keep my dogs bums to my self :D

When I was an undergraduate I had to share a house with some people that smoked dope. Apart from strongly objecting to being forced to share their air and therefore their habit, they totally changed as people.

Before we all moved in they smoked very occasionally as a social thing at parties which I was aware of and had no objection to. But after a few months of living together, they would wake up, have a joint for breakfast, and then carry on smoking pretty much throughout the day.

Their behaviour changed completely. They became anti-social, abusive and self-absorbed. Driven by the munchies and lack of money for food (it was all being spent on drugs) they would rifle through my food and eat whatever they could lay their grubby little mits on. Whoever it was mentioned Hollyoaks earlier on - the guy in that is an exact portrayal of what we had to put up with.

My point is - if the drug is misused and taken in excess, of course it causes mental health problems, just as any drug such as alcohol would. If they had drunk alcohol all day instead of smoking cannabis - they would have been considered to have a serious problem and maybe someone would have done something about it. However I'm not sure about pre-disposition though. Every one of them ended up acting in the same way. I think anyone who smokes that much will develop behavioural problems, and I think peer pressure amongst them had a big part to play.

Originally posted by MTheo
i am a strange person natalie :D

that is even part of my email address.....hmmmm do you know me? im now suspicious :suspect:

ahhh well back to the topic...i shall keep my dogs bums to my self :D
does twogingerballs mean anything to you??

Originally posted by Twiglet
If they had drunk alcohol all day instead of smoking cannabis - they would have been considered to have a serious problem and maybe someone would have done something about it.

I agree with you here - I've experienced this before. The "cannabis culture" is the main problem, as those who subscribe to it fail to see even the obvious dangers of smoking (such as damaged lungs etc) let alone the dangers of excessive use and addiction.

Originally posted by Twiglet
Their behaviour changed completely. They became anti-social, abusive and self-absorbed... Whoever it was mentioned Hollyoaks earlier on - the guy in that is an exact portrayal of what we had to put up with

I've never seen this! Self-absorbed, yes, anti-social, yes (in the sense that they don't get out much) but never, never abusive. I can't see that the drug itself causes people to be violent or abusive... it goes against the effects it has, in my experience. Alcohol, yes / Marijuana, no.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
I've never seen this! Self-absorbed, yes, anti-social, yes (in the sense that they don't get out much) but never, never abusive. I can't see that the drug itself causes people to be violent or abusive... it goes against the effects it has, in my experience. Alcohol, yes / Marijuana, no.

Should have clarified that I meant verbally abusive rather than physically. i.e. when asked to keep the noise down because it was 4 in the morning, or because we were in the sitting room watching TV when they wanted to go in there and smoke. But verbal abuse when you have to live with it 24/7 is pretty damn awful. And 24/7 it was - their waking hours turned to 5pm - 7am with associated constant loud music, shouting and lots of people turning up at the house at all hours.

A lot of the verbal stuff was more bitchy than anything else - so there you go, it obviously turns blokes into girls as well.

I smoke weed and I'd say I'm pretty nuts, sue me.

Originally posted by J-Blaze
I smoke weed and I'd say I'm pretty nuts, sue me.

I am way tooooo stoned to be ar*ed I am afraid!

Like the idea, can we discusss it over some munchies?

My Grandson who was into Cannabis..suddenly started behaving oddly..Talking to himself..saw every one as a threat..and in the end he was convinced that he had a spider living in his lungs..and then one night I found him in the bathroom with his arm badly slashed with a razor blade..it took me a further ten days to get him admitted to a Mental hostpital (because most places were booked up)..When I visited him in this hostpital ( specially opened for young people) I discovered that 80% of the young inmates had been on cannabis and all had the same problem CANNABIS PHYCOSIS (look it up on Google)..He was in the Hostpital for six months and they finally released him 2 years ago, he is now on medication and could be for life, but he is slowly improving he is now 19 years old and most of his teenage years have been wasted..
The medication causes sex drive problems..so he has never had a girlfriend..He has never had a job..and I pray one day he will be back to normal...I and many other parents know what cannabis can do, All you have to do is keep on taking it into your system and before you know it ( because you won't) co's schizophrenia is like that..you'll be convinced that ther's a spider inside you..or the Telly is talking to you..or you suddenly have supernatural powers, or you believe that you are "Charles Bronson"(the American mass murderer).. or like "your the most knowlegable person on Earth". I've met all these people in the mental unit and every one (total twenty five) have been on cannabis ...So carry one and see what happens to you.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
This feeling has been around for some years. I think it initially came up with regard to the number of black youths who exhibited signs of schizophrenia after smoking a lot of dope, but the study couldn't determine whether it was a genetic pre-disposition in the black community towards schizophrenia or whether it was drug triggered.

There is also another (very convincing) avenue of thought on this, which is that black mh service users are hugely over-diagnosed with the more 'serious' or, more honestly, the more stigmatising diagnoses, in particular schizophrenia.

The recently reviewed case of Rocky Bennett who died after being restrained in a psych ward has caused this discussion to come out somewhat, and over-drugging and over-diagnosing in the black community has begun to be explored.

I guess there's also the argument from the other perspective - are people with a tendency towards mental health problems more likely to indulge in drugs use?

Yes indeed. While there is no doubt that cannabis-induced psychosis does exist, I suspect that the majority of cases where mental ill health and cannabis use are linked, it is that mh service users use cannabis to relieve their distressing symptoms, rather than the cannabis causing these.

Pippa x

were all grown ups surely its everyones right to take what they want

Originally posted by truckerglyn
were all grown ups surely its everyones right to take what they want

Absolutely. I have been taking various social drugs for nearly 17 years now, canabis included. I wouldn't say I am a habitual user as there are sometimes periods of weeks that go by without me using anything. Sometimes I am aware that I can not perform in work as well if I have been over-doing it at the weekend, so I make sure I dose correctly or abstain all together. However, I do know how to use some substances to have a really good time (...there is a good reason people do it after all!), without it appears damaging my physical or mental health.

If on the other hand somebody decides they are going to use the same substances every day of the week, then I can't see how they could possibly function as a member of society. I know tolerances vary between people, but I absolutely KNOW that my life would take a sharp nose-dive if I were to partake much more regularly.

I don't have a problem with people taking drugs - recreationally. Anyone who becomes dependent on any drug has a problem whether they choose to admit it or not. A friend of mine could not exist without his daily weed intake. I was the same with cigarettes and am still with caffeine.

I have a certificate in drug and alcohol counselling and one of the exercises we did during one of our training course was to access What would be the result if:
A) Drugs were made legal.
B) Alcohol was made illegal.
Some of the ideas people came up with were quite remarkable.
My views on cannabis? Used sensibly it is a lot less damaging on the body than alcohol.:)

Originally posted by sacredearth
I have a certificate in drug and alcohol counselling and one of the exercises we did during one of our training course was to access What would be the result if:
A) Drugs were made legal.
B) Alcohol was made illegal.
Out of curiosity, what was your conclusion?

Bez :loopy:

Nuff said me thinks

Everyone has overlooked that people who use drugs seriously reduce the chances of getting and keeping a job.

I work with people with mental health problems to support them in to employment and a lot of them have a problem with drugs.
The effect that this can have on their ability to do their job can be immense.
The trouble is, it is a bit like the game that the alcoholic or smoker plays.They are in denial.They will all say that it doesnt affect them and they are in control.
You only have to work with someone for a while to realise that they are not.
You have to look at why someone wants to use a drug in the first place.
Usually it is escapism or to avoid dealing with all the problems that they have going on in their lives and are unable to have support to deal with them
the easy answer is to Kop out and turn to drink, drugs or food.
I totally disagree that most people are dependant on some drug or other.Of course it depends how you classify dependant.
You could say that someone who has a glass of red wine after work is dependant .You could say that anyone who drinks 4 cups of caffeine a day is dependant( or tea for that matter).These things excluded, there are a lot of people out there who really do not have the time( or inclination) to get hooked on anything
If you have a problem, there are some healthy Living workshops coming up at Hillsborough Leisure Centre, run by the Primary Care teams and they are excellent.They are free.
I would recommend them as I have used the assertiveness training course personally.It may help to look at yourself and decide why you want to use the drugs in the first place

Originally posted by espadrille
Everyone has overlooked that people who use drugs seriously reduce the chances of getting and keeping a job.


Really, how?
I have never once in my life claimed benefit and yet I have used recreational drugs for 17 years.

Another person who assumes that everyone who uses drugs is running away from something or is automatically some kind of addict.

That is simply not my reality. Not even nearly and never has been.

Originally posted by espadrille
... there are some healthy Living workshops coming up at Hillsborough Leisure Centre, run by the Primary Care teams and they are excellent.They are free.

Those sound interesting, anyone got any info on these? Courses available / dates / times ?

PM me plz.

your obviously making some very broad generalisations here. For example, cocaine use broken down by 'class' is most prevalent in the middle classes. Since these are professionals with well paid jobs it would appear that using cocaine is not likely to make keeping a job significantly more difficult than not using.

You also admit that someone can use recreational or more accepted drugs like alchohol or caffeine without being an addict, but seem to imply that anyone who uses a slightly less acceptable drug is incapable of moderation or control, isn't that a bit contradictory?

Originally posted by espadrille
Everyone has overlooked that people who use drugs seriously reduce the chances of getting and keeping a job.

I work with people with mental health problems to support them in to employment and a lot of them have a problem with drugs.
The effect that this can have on their ability to do their job can be immense.
The trouble is, it is a bit like the game that the alcoholic or smoker plays.They are in denial.They will all say that it doesnt affect them and they are in control.
You only have to work with someone for a while to realise that they are not.
You have to look at why someone wants to use a drug in the first place.
Usually it is escapism or to avoid dealing with all the problems that they have going on in their lives and are unable to have support to deal with them
the easy answer is to Kop out and turn to drink, drugs or food.
I totally disagree that most people are dependant on some drug or other.Of course it depends how you classify dependant.
You could say that someone who has a glass of red wine after work is dependant .You could say that anyone who drinks 4 cups of caffeine a day is dependant( or tea for that matter).These things excluded, there are a lot of people out there who really do not have the time( or inclination) to get hooked on anything
If you have a problem, there are some healthy Living workshops coming up at Hillsborough Leisure Centre, run by the Primary Care teams and they are excellent.They are free.
I would recommend them as I have used the assertiveness training course personally.It may help to look at yourself and decide why you want to use the drugs in the first place

Originally posted by Cyclone
your obviously making some very broad generalisations here. For example, cocaine use broken down by 'class' is most prevalent in the middle classes. Since these are professionals with well paid jobs it would appear that using cocaine is not likely to make keeping a job significantly more difficult than not using.

In fact, I think alot of the people I work with would say that cocaine actually helps them in their job. People just get this view that all drug uses are down-and-outs who life outside society and can't hold down a job... that can be a very dangerous view to have. Most drugs wouldn't stop someone doing their jobs anymore than alcohol or tobacco would... certainly not coke or cannabis.

i know this is an oldish thread now, but i have to add that i worked at middlewood hospital for a good number of years and quite a few patients were brought in from the effects of pot etc, it does have a bad effect on the brain, it kills brain cells. also you can have latent schitzophrenia and smoking cannabis can trigger it. i wish that teenage kids could have a trip around a drug ward that 'd halt any thought of 'trying it for a laugh'.

Originally posted by espadrille
Everyone has overlooked that people who use drugs seriously reduce the chances of getting and keeping a job.

Oh dear :rolleyes:

The vast majority of people I know take drugs of some form whether it be the odd joint after work, a pint after work or a few lines of coke at the weekend and guess what? We all have jobs! In fact I'd even go as far to say that most of us are very successful being that half my mates (me included) are self employed and the other half in decent to good employment.

Sure drugs can have a bad effect on some people and only a fool would suggest otherwise but used in moderation and with proper education they can be and generally are fun.

Believe it or not even heroin and crack users can hold down a job although many would have you believe otherwise. A fair few can't as well as is obvious from walking round any big city.

I'll second that! A 'smoker' for 9 years now, and I earn in excess of £20k a year in a sales job. No problems!

Originally posted by t020
LONDON (Reuters) - Teenagers and young adults who frequently use cannabis are increasing their risk of suffering from psychotic symptoms such as bizarre behaviour and delusions later in life, Dutch scientists say.

Young people with a family history, or pre-existing susceptibility to mental instability, are particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of the drug.

"Cannabis does not act in the same fashion on psychosis risk for everybody. There is a group that is particularly susceptible," Professor Jim van Os, of Maastricht University in the Netherlands, told a news conference on Wednesday.

He and his colleagues studied 2,437 young people aged 14-24 and identified those with a predisposition for psychosis. They also questioned them about their cannabis use and followed them up for four years.

"The results show that in the group without vulnerability to psychosis, there was a small effect of cannabis on the onset of psychotic symptoms four years later," Van Os said.

"But this risk was four times bigger in individuals who had a personal vulnerability to psychosis."

Van Os said the study also showed the odds of experiencing symptoms of psychosis were higher for people who smoked cannabis more frequently.

The findings, which are reported online by the British Medical Journal, are consistent with the results of other studies.

Doctors do not understand how cannabis increases the risk of mental illness but they suspect it affects the dopamine system in the brain which is associated with pleasure.

Source:
click here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041201/325/f7oxa.html)


Discuss....


They have been saying this stuff for years....I know a few old school collegues who have lost the plot from smoking and have been institutionalised... but you take that risk in life

Interesting that studies have only been carried out on 14-24 year olds.
Any studies done on older adults who use cannabis. If not, why not? Is it thought that people are more vulnerable earlier in life?

I think the main concern should be lung cancer not 'psychotic symptoms such as bizarre behaviour and delusions later in life'

I'ts ironic they are dutch scientists too

Inhaling concentrated smoke of any kind will deliver differing, but high doses of carcinogens.

What effects they have may be partly determined by genetic susceptibilty.

Inhaling cannabinoid vapours from smoking cannabis can cause anxiety attacks, confusion and forgetfulness amongts a spectrum of short term affects. Chronic use is connected to anxiety disorders and schizophrenia, and cannabis can certainly precipitate nascent mental disorders including depression etc.

However, an epidemiological study of users is made very diffcult because of prohibition, and thus evidence based studies tend to be nothing more than point samples on a huge number of people who smoke cannabis recreationally.

This does nothing to further study of the effects of cannabis on the health of the individual, or the health of the society that tolerates/prohibits/endorses it.

Of course without prohibition, epidemiological studies of legal drugs are only instigated if there appears to be a serious problem, e.g. alcohol.

Its as dangerous as tobacco and less dangerous than alcohol

Recent evidence has shown that cannabis mitigates the damging effects of binge drinking.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9X-4WV15NB-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b50be256228e7b4d2a2e1b6fa12b5063

So remember kids, when you go down the park to sup cider, make sure you have a puff of that herbal cigarette too!

Cannabis has been linked to mental health problems

*Linked* being the key word, there is no evidence whatsoever that is actually causes any mental health issues beyond anecdotal.

The only statistical study in recent times concluded that those who are effected by cannabis were more likely to have an existing mental condition, and cannabis exasperated it.

I know many many people who smoke strong skunk daily, never known any of them have any issues whatsoever. They all have degrees, are in highly paid jobs and are very active though, maybe lifestyle is more a contributer than the cannabis?

*Linked* being the key word, there is no evidence whatsoever that is actually causes any mental health issues beyond anecdotal.

The only study statistical study in recent times concluded that those who are effected by cannibis were more likely to have an existing mental condition, and cannibis exasperated it.

I know many many people who smoke stong skunk daily, never known any of them have any issues whatsoever. They all have degrees, are in highly paid jobs and are very active though, maybe lifestyle is more a contributer than the cannibis?

finally, somebody saying what ive said on numerous occasions :)

I think the main concern should be lung cancer not 'psychotic symptoms such as bizarre behaviour and delusions later in life'

I'ts ironic they are dutch scientists too

There is more chance of getting lung cancer through cannabis than through ordinary cigs, and the chances with ordinary cigs is pretty high.

There is more chance of getting lung cancer through cannabis than through ordinary cigs, and the chances with ordinary cigs is pretty high.

I'd rather be stoned in my youth than live well into my 70s to claim a non existent pension thank you very much.

I'd rather be stoned in my youth than live well into my 70s to claim a non existent pension thank you very much.

Each to his own.!:rolleyes:

Is this the oldest now active thread? (2004!)

There is more chance of getting lung cancer through cannabis than through ordinary cigs, and the chances with ordinary cigs is pretty high.

Source?

Would that be when smoked with tobacco and not through a filter?

Source?

Would that be when smoked with tobacco and not through a filter?

It would

There is some evidence that weed contains carcinogens - but not to anywhere the level of tobacco.