Hope this helps. Just bear with me, please, it really drives me crazy:blush: ...so have some patience with me, and maybe a look?



Their: It belongs to them. It is THEIR right to spell this word however they like.

There: WhERE is the mad grammar woman? Over thERE! Lynch her!

They're: They are. They're going to massacre me for caring about grammar.

:D :D :D :D

Hugs :D
Cosy

Originally posted by cosywolf
Hope this helps. Just bear with me, please, it really drives me crazy:blush: ...so have some patience with me, and maybe a look?



Their: It belongs to them. It is THEIR right to spell this word however they like.

There: WhERE is the mad grammar woman? Over thERE! Lynch her!

They're: They are. They're going to massacre me for caring about grammar.

:D :D :D :D

Hugs :D
Cosy

Very good Cosy.

Hopefully some people will learn from this :P

Are you a teacher by any chance?

I'm worried, doesn't everyone know this :?

Nice one cosy !! ... Fancy doing a lil piece on the use of apostrophies !?

Apostrophies ?

Apostrophie's ?

Apostrophies' ?

Jamie.

It's apostrophies Jamie!:D

Originally posted by sparklesista
I'm worried, doesn't everyone know this :?

Have a look at some of the spelling on the posts sometime! Clearly quite alot of people don't.

Originally posted by cosywolf
Hope this helps. Just bear with me, please, it really drives me crazy:blush: ...so have some patience with me, and maybe a look?



If it's any consolation Cosy it bugs me too!

Originally posted by wendy
If it's any consolation Cosy it bugs me too!

I think it bugs just about everyone

Lol, no not a teacher. I just suffer what my husband calls a grammar and spelling obsession. If I see it and its not right, it drives me crazy. Literally.

I know I'll get lynched for this by some people, but I've seen it over and over again on the forum, and it does actually REALLY bother me, which I know is sad, but I don't care, lol.

No, I don't do apostrophes...(no 'i'). But follow a simple rule and you'll upset less people than if you don't - if in doubt, leave it out!

e.g. my local butcher sign says: 'Drumstick's £1.29'. How on earth does a drumstick earn that kind of money????

Oh Gawwwd...I didn't mean to get going. I'll just get my coat....

Cosy

Originally posted by wendy
It's apostrophies Jamie!:D

Sorry, it's apostrophes. Without an 'i'.

See? I just can't help myself.

Oh, that's okay, here come the nice young men in their clean white coats....

Originally posted by cosywolf
Sorry, it's apostrophes. Without an 'i'.

See? I just can't help myself.

Oh, that's okay, here come the nice young men in their clean white coats....

:blush: Oops so it is!:blush: Oh well I don't type that word very often so it's easy done, but there, their and they're are common words that everyone uses but more people spell them wrong.

Another common mistake which stops the flow of the written word is when people misuse fewer or less.

See here for an explanation of the correct usage:
Fewer or less. (http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000214.htm)

I was wondering what the rules were, for using them (apostropes).

When to not use one?
(it was Davids bike).

When to use one pefore the 's'?
(it was David's bike).

When to use one after the 's'?
(it was Davids' bike).

In the example you used Jamie you would use the second option.

The first would simply make David plural and the last wouldn't really make sense in that context.

Apostrophes are used to either replace silent letters - as I have used above with "wouldn't" or in your example it is used to denote belonging ie the bike belongs to David. There is another rule which the wording of escapes me at the moment but it relates to the use with plurals.

Originally posted by wendy
In the example you used Jamie you would use the second option.

The first would simply make David plural and the last wouldn't really make sense in that context.

Thanks Wendy.

So are the following correct?

1) David has a nice collection of Bikes.
2) David's bike was the best.

Can anyone give an example of when to use the apostrope after the 's' !?

Originally posted by Jamie
Thanks Wendy.

So are the following correct?

1) David has a nice collection of Bikes.
2) David's bike was the best.

Can anyone give an example of when to use the apostrope after the 's' !?

They look fine to me Jamie!:)

You use the apostrophe after the s when it's a plural possessive
e.g.
The boys' money was all gone.
would mean that 3 or 4 boys had no money left....but..
The boy's money was all gone.
would only apply to one boy.
We use it mainly because it's awkward for people to pronounce the two"esses" together e.g.
The girls's teacher is here.
Does it cause confusion?
Yes,if you only hear it in isolation----but then a lot of English grammar is confusing. "If I were you........".! Try explaining that to someone learning English when you've drummed it into them that "I" is singular and "were" is plural !

Originally posted by alex123
You use the apostrophe after the s when it's a plural possessive
e.g.
The boys' money was all gone.
would mean that 3 or 4 boys had no money left....but..
The boy's money was all gone.
would only apply to one boy.
We use it mainly because it's awkward for people to pronounce the two"esses" together e.g.
The girls's teacher is here.
Does it cause confusion?
Yes,if you only hear it in isolation----but then a lot of English grammar is confusing. "If I were you........".! Try explaining that to someone learning English when you've drummed it into them that "I" is singular and "were" is plural !

Very well explained Alex - I just couldn't think how it was put!:clap:

No pr'ob'lem' baby.

Thankyou for clearing that up for me. I suppose I am one of the guilty on this subject.
Unfortunatly the schooling system let me down especially in the english dept.
I will make a note and promise not to do it again :)

Originally posted by wendy
It's apostrophies Jamie!:D

Have a read of "Eats Shoots and Leaves" - very interesting read, IMO.

Alex

Originally posted by Jamie

Can anyone give an example of when to use the apostrope after the 's' !?

"Thomas' bike was nicked".

Alex

Happy postrophes cont,..

Just an interesting local way in which we use apostrophes is when talking about company names and products.
Sheffield folk always -correctly - say Stones's beer Not Stone's because that would make the brewer William Stone instead of William Stones.
And the shop in town is correctly called Cole's (or was until John
Lewis took it over!) because the boss's name was Cole not Coles.
Hope it's clear!

Originally posted by amhudson119
Have a read of "Eats Shoots and Leaves" - very interesting read, IMO.

Alex

I nearly suggested that myself Alex but haven't actually read it - just discussed it at work with my colleagues.

I think I'll stick to fiction - I've read enough text books etc to last me a lifetime with the number of course I've done!:D

Another common error is 'loose' for 'lose'. I've seen it a few times on this forum, but can't remember ever seeing it in a newspaper or magazine. How did it start ?

Originally posted by Greybeard
Another common error is 'loose' for 'lose'. I've seen it a few times on this forum, but can't remember ever seeing it in a newspaper or magazine. How did it start ?

Possibly because of the sound of the "oo" - in loose the "oo" is fairly short but in lose like in choose the "oo" is long.

And in the past tense...lose goes to lost and choose goes to chose. You do have to admire people who master English as a second language :D

This thread has already taught me more English than school did :thumbsup:.

Keep it going guy's ;) (Ohh damn. Is that apostrophe in the right place :?)

Originally posted by Jamie
Nice one cosy !! ... Fancy doing a lil piece on the use of apostrophies !?

Apostrophies ?

Apostrophie's ?

Apostrophies' ?

Jamie.

Already done it Jamie:

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=221894#post221894


PS. It's "apostrophes". :P

Originally posted by t020

PS. It's "apostrophes". :P

Already been done t020: ;) :thumbsup:

To Greybeard,
I've taught English abroad and you're right----most of the students who learn English do a fantastic job .
Sometimes to show them how difficult or illogical English is , I used to show them this:-
Bow as in Bow and arrow
Bow as in bowed down
Bough as in bough of a tree
Cough
Tough
Dough
Rough
ruff
duff................etc........
After about half an hour of guessing how we pronounce each word,they realised how potty we all are in England but at least they knew what they were up against.
It was no good pretending to them that English is easy to learn and most of them accepted that and just got on with it.
I think it's a mistake in modern education in England to make the students believe that all learning is painless. It isn't and our kids either give up or get a nasty shock when they discover the truth and that's why standards are falling : we're desperately trying to help them hold onto the illusion.

Whilst we're on the topic of English in general, who uses this punctuation mark: ":-" or "-:"


You see "-" and ":" beng used individually, but you can combine them both to make ":-" and "-:".

Alex

Originally posted by amhudson119
Whilst we're on the topic of English in general, who uses this punctuation mark: ":-" or "-:"


You see "-" and ":" beng used individually, but you can combine them both to make ":-" and "-:".

Alex

I think this is now down to common usage, if you know what I mean. When I left school 20 odd years ago :- was commonly used to denote the start of a list but now you would usually only see :. It's a bit like open punctuation on letters - that didn't really exist then and all addresses had full punctuation. I've never seen -: used though that's a new one on me.

Originally posted by wendy
I think this is now down to common usage, if you know what I mean. When I left school 20 odd years ago :- was commonly used to denote the start of a list but now you would usually only see :. It's a bit like open punctuation on letters - that didn't really exist then and all addresses had full punctuation. I've never seen -: used though that's a new one on me.

On an address you'd now find:- ;)

XXX Road
Area
Town
County
Post code

Before you'd find:-

XX Road,
Area,
Town,
County
Post code.

Except, it would be one the right hand side of the page ;)

Alex

That sort of thing, do you mean? As in when writing a letter..?

Alex

Yeah that's it. It's just a form of modernisation I suppose. Certain things don't get used anymore!

Other annoyances of mine include:-

- People when writing thread titles will write: "What Is It Like In The Wincobank Area" - this is unnecessary, as only "What" and "Wincobank" need to be capitalised.

- Words being "AmericaniZed" (Americanised) - this seems to be creeping into language much more these days.

- The poor old semi-colon - it's hardly ever used; a great punctuation mark - I never see it being used these days ;) !

Alex

Originally posted by amhudson119
Other annoyances of mine include:-

- People when writing thread titles will write: "What Is It Like In The Wincobank Area" - this is unnecessary, as only "What" and "Wincobank" need to be capitalised.

- Words being "AmericaniZed" (Americanised) - this seems to be creeping into language much more these days.

- The poor old semi-colon - it's hardly ever used; a great punctuation mark - I never see it being used these days ;) !

Alex

I know just what you mean - especially about the americanisation of words.

Originally posted by amhudson119
Whilst we're on the topic of English in general, who uses this punctuation mark: ":-" or "-:"


You see "-" and ":" beng used individually, but you can combine them both to make ":-" and "-:".

Alex

I use it, and the good old semi-colon.

I fully agree with what you've said about the lack of grammar in what is, after all, our native tongue. However we just have to accept that some people (for whatever reason) have maybe not had as a good an education as the rest of us. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of what age groups struggle with grammar and punctuation - I'd put money on it being the younger end - the age group where teachers thought it trendy not to worry about spelling but do everything phonetically.

But the thing that really gets me is TEXTSPEAK in messages like this - there is no excuse for it, its not a lack of education but laziness!!

Tymes' a changing... ;)

http://www.mun.ca/Ansaxdat/vocab/wordlist.html

LOL, and I thought I would get in trouble for starting this...

How about a little Olde English then? Just in time for Ye Olde Christmas Carols and twee little Christmas cards. Amaze your friends with this completely useless fact:

When you see 'Ye Olde Shoppe' (for instance), 'ye' is actually pronounced 'the'. That is not a 'Y' it is an archaic little critter called a thorn, and was an old shortcut for writing the sound 'th'.

So for those of you who think we take too many shortcuts in English today, take heart: we always have.

Cosy:D

PS: Apostrophes...honestly, if you can't figure out whether you need one or not, you're less likely to be catastrophically wrong if you just leave it out altogether

Originally posted by alex123
To Greybeard,
I've taught English abroad and you're right----most of the students who learn English do a fantastic job .
Sometimes to show them how difficult or illogical English is , I used to show them this:-
Bow as in Bow and arrow
Bow as in bowed down
Bough as in bough of a tree

I think it's a mistake in modern education in England to make the students believe that all learning is painless. It isn't and our kids either give up or get a nasty shock when they discover the truth and that's why standards are falling : we're desperately trying to help them hold onto the illusion.

Hi Alex

Another good example of diifferent spelling for the same sound is...right, or rite, or write and wright (as in shipwright etc.); although the last one is a little archaic these days it occurs often enough in personal names.

Agree entirely about the pain of learning. "no pain -no gain" is a good motto.

There's a common misconception that Grammar schools were founded to teach English grammar. In fact their aim was to teach Latin and Greek grammar, - eleven year olds were assumed to have mastered English grammar :)

And, like it or not, if you use an apostrophe in the wrong place on a document, or a letter, that a lot of other people are likely to see, a lot of people will judge your intelligence based on it.
e.g application forms, application letters - you really don't want to get it wrong on these.

I think I'm the only person ever to know the difference between the words their, there and they're since I was about 10 :|

One thing I use but have never really understand, is the word "ain't".

Can't= Can not
Wouldn't= Would not

But ain't?

Explain and I'll (I will) be a happy chappy :thumbsup:

Cosy,

Let's not forget though, that 'Ye' was also a word in it's own right, archaically used as the plural of 'thou' and 'thee'.

Okay (I think)

Ain't originated as meaning am not (which would be amn't). But obviously you don''t pronounce it like that - the way you do pronounce it is most accurately rendered ain't - that is closest to the pronounciation.

Obviously over time, it became more widespread, and also the meaning became wider to also mean "is not" and "are not"

I'm not sure the above is 100% accurate, but I think its something along those lines. Of course if you were being gramatically accurate I don't think you would use the word, so it probably doesn't matter too much!

Originally posted by GazB
[B
But ain't?

Explain and I'll (I will) be a happy chappy :thumbsup: [/B]


Probably slang or dialect, - a contraction of am not, is not, has/have not.

"He ain't heavy, - he's my brother"

In some areas of the south-west people still say 'bain't', contracting the dialect 'I be not', e.g - "I bain't a Jagger, I be a Janner"

Work that one out :cool:

Originally posted by Greybeard
Cosy,

Let's not forget though, that 'Ye' was also a word in it's own right, archaically used as the plural of 'thou' and 'thee'.

Oops, yep, forgot to mention that...had to go do some actual work, lol.

'O come all ye faithful...' etc.

And perhaps not as archaic as you think, as I have had older people use it in my hearing...

Cosy:D

Has anyone mentioned this one yet? Your and You're?

I've seen this many times on the forum in the wrong place. It's a little irritating to see it but I tend to keep my mouth shut so i don't come across as a pain in the bum. However since we're all having a moan...

Your - It's your problem, not mine. ;)

You're (You are) - You're not all having this problem, just the odd few. :)

Originally posted by Greybeard


In some areas of the south-west people still say 'bain't', contracting the dialect 'I be not', e.g - "I bain't a Jagger, I be a Janner"

Work that one out :cool:


That's nothing. Where I come from there are still people for whom the present tense of the verb 'to be' is:

I be
You be
He (or her or it) be
We be
You be (pl.)
They be.

And most of these can be replaced by am too e.g. you'm, they'm. But if you ask me it's still OK to talk like Walter Gabriel; just adds to our rustic charm.

I'd still sooner hear that than someone from Sheffield saying 'I'll be here while six o'clock'. What's that all about, eh?

Silly Question, what do you all mean when you use the word LOL.

Thanks, just don't want to miss out on anything !

Originally posted by poppins
Silly Question, what do you all mean when you use the word LOL.

Thanks, just don't want to miss out on anything !

LOL = Laughing out Loud :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Clumber
I use it, and the good old semi-colon.

I fully agree with what you've said about the lack of grammar in what is, after all, our native tongue. However we just have to accept that some people (for whatever reason) have maybe not had as a good an education as the rest of us. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of what age groups struggle with grammar and punctuation - I'd put money on it being the younger end - the age group where teachers thought it trendy not to worry about spelling but do everything phonetically.

But the thing that really gets me is TEXTSPEAK in messages like this - there is no excuse for it, its not a lack of education but laziness!!

Hmm... interesting idea that; I am 16, yet I do "bother" to read and acquire a decent vocabulary and build-up decent English skills that way.
Unfortunately, I have noticed the decline of m English in general due to Instant Messaaging and people writing "lol" "brb" , etc etc.
I do try to continue writing with a reasonable level of English. I suppose it helps that I read a paper too, then again it may not...

Alex

Originally posted by Clumber
I use it, and the good old semi-colon.

I fully agree with what you've said about the lack of grammar in what is, after all, our native tongue. However we just have to accept that some people (for whatever reason) have maybe not had as a good an education as the rest of us. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of what age groups struggle with grammar and punctuation - I'd put money on it being the younger end - the age group where teachers thought it trendy not to worry about spelling but do everything phonetically.

But the thing that really gets me is TEXTSPEAK in messages like this - there is no excuse for it, its not a lack of education but laziness!!

Not sure all the blame should be put at the feet of the young 'uns. Plenty of older people can't spell simple words or use language properly - I come across it all the time in my work.

Whenever I see 'your' used where 'you're' should be, I do cringe though, no matter where I see it. Oh, and 'practice' instead of 'practise', and 'complementary' instead of 'complimentary, 'independant' instead of 'independent'... perhaps I should just get a life! ;)

Originally posted by cosywolf
Hope this helps. Just bear with me, please, it really drives me crazy:blush: ...so have some patience with me, and maybe a look?



Their: It belongs to them. It is THEIR right to spell this word however they like.

There: WhERE is the mad grammar woman? Over thERE! Lynch her!

They're: They are. They're going to massacre me for caring about grammar.

:D :D :D :D

Hugs :D
Cosy

Can you do a similar guide for Been and Being they get me very time !! :)

Originally posted by metalman


And most of these can be replaced by am too e.g. you'm, they'm. But if you ask me it's still OK to talk like Walter Gabriel; just adds to our rustic charm.

I'd still sooner hear that than someone from Sheffield saying 'I'll be here while six o'clock'. What's that all about, eh?

I'm very fond of rustic charm :D , and dialect is fine by me. In fact it's essential to preserve it if we can.

The 'while versus until' thing has had plenty of airing in the Sheffield dialect thread.

BTW a Jagger is a Cornishman and a Janner a Devonian.

I've not bothered to read all this thread but I'm sure someone will tell me if this has been covered already. The only one I have a problem with is effect and affect.

Anyone know a fail-safe way to work out when to use affect and effect?

Something about something having an impact on something else
means you use effect....or something like that?? I tend to just guess.

Originally posted by threecolours
I've not bothered to read all this thread but I'm sure someone will tell me if this has been covered already. The only one I have a problem with is effect and affect.

Anyone know a fail-safe way to work out when to use affect and effect?

Something about something having an impact on something else
means you use effect....or something like that?? I tend to just guess.

Affect: The change in the timetable doesen't * affect group A.

Effect: Nice effect you're making there with the paper and matches. ;)

Alex

*= I wouldn't be surprised if "doesen't" would have been replaced with "don't" if other people may have been writing this example...

I effect affecting an air of efficacy.

I also dislike stationary shops - they should always be on the move.

"would of/should of" drives me nuts

ye is pronounced thee - the 'y' is a corruption of the OE letter "thorn" (pronounced 'th') afaik.

But spelling is a load of old hokum anyway for the Queenie Leavises amongst us.

Don't remember shakespeare or chaucer or eliot or blake paying too much attention to it.

Originally posted by march
Can you do a similar guide for Been and Being they get me very time !! :)

Yep,

BEEN: I have been looking at the posts here. I must have been crazy to start this. It has been interesting, though.

BEING: I am being silly. You are being serious. They were being sarcastic.

Sorry, I'm not up on grammatical explanations this morning, lol. I need more sleep.

Cosy

;)

Originally posted by amhudson119
Affect: The change in the timetable doesen't * affect group A.

Effect: Nice effect you're making there with the paper and matches. ;)

Alex

*= I wouldn't be surprised if "doesen't" would have been replaced with "don't" if other people may have been writing this example...

Ta for that Alex. Nice try but I'm not sure I'll remember it...but I am quite affected (ok probably wrong use of the word?!) that you've tried to help me. I'll see if it effects how I write in future.

* by the way...I think you meant doesn't anyway....you need to drop one of the e's!

i ate peeps dat carnt spel!

As far as I know "ain't" is an abbreviation of 'have not'. Certainly been used since Dickensian times, and commonly mis-used to mean 'is not'.

Originally posted by threecolours
I've not bothered to read all this thread but I'm sure someone will tell me if this has been covered already. The only one I have a problem with is effect and affect.

Anyone know a fail-safe way to work out when to use affect and effect?

Something about something having an impact on something else
means you use effect....or something like that?? I tend to just guess.

Don't know if this helps but I always remember "Effect" as being the consequences of something. Whereas "Affect" precedes who or what it will impact on.

Cheers Wendy...yeah that should help but will have to get back to you. I'm sure I was told something similar when at school and then I just forgot. At least I've a 50/50 chance of getting it right!

Originally posted by threecolours
Ta for that Alex. Nice try but I'm not sure I'll remember it...but I am quite affected (ok probably wrong use of the word?!) that you've tried to help me. I'll see if it effects how I write in future.

* by the way...I think you meant doesn't anyway....you need to drop one of the e's!

Hmm....

1) I said that my English is starting to deteriorate(!)
2) Hmmm.. not really the word I'd use in that context; if you really did want to use the word - then that would be the correct spelling for it.

Alex

Another English sin is the use of the word 'of'. Unfortunately used in Sheffield instead of 'have'.

E.g. I would of if I could of.
I would have if I could have.

My partner does it and he isn't from round these parts at all.
Drives me crackers.

I know, groans all round, more grammar...but I've seen it loads today, so...

Lose: To misplace something. I often lose my train of thought...especially when I see this word replaced with -

Loose: "Make me feel real loose, like a long-necked goose...ooh baby, that's what I like!" (The Big Bopper). To not be tied down, to run free, etc.

Hugs,
Cosy

Originally posted by cosywolf
I know, groans all round, more grammar...but I've seen it loads today, so...

Lose: To misplace something. I often lose my train of thought...especially when I see this word replaced with -

Loose: "Make me feel real loose, like a long-necked goose...ooh baby, that's what I like!" (The Big Bopper). To not be tied down, to run free, etc.

Hugs,
Cosy

Thats a really odd one, I know my mum (who is very good at English) cannot for the life of her remember the difference between loose and lose, along with choose and chose. She recently found out she's dyslexic (after nearly 30 years of being an excellent primary teacher) and I think if she hasn't got it by now she never will.
I know bad spelling and grammar is annoying, but please remember some people are trying their best but just cannot help their mistakes.
Em
xx