There are a couple of discussions ongoing about the rights and wrongs of hitting children, but can some of you pet people please answer a question for me?
Is hitting a dog ever a legitimate part of training it and under what circumstances? Thanks.

In my opinion No. However some people do tap their dogs and hit their dogs to show them right from wrong. My personal opinion is the same with animals as it is with dogs. Ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good! In my eyes thats a much better way of training.

What we have to remember aswell is a tap on the nose and a tap on the bum (of a child) is much much different to actually hitting!

I honestly think for children all this uproar about not smacking kids has been blown out of proportion.

I have been known to repetatively (spelt wrong?) tap one of my dogs on her forehead when she was a pup to stop her nipping (with my forefinger in a tapping motion), not that it hurt her but that she found it annoying enough to stop the nipping. If that makes sense. Some people may class that as totally out of order but it didnt hurt her it was just an annoying feeling.

I would never however physically hurt my pets and I dont agree with it in training methods. Nor do I agree with choker chains being used in training either.

:)

In my opinion No. However some people do tap their dogs and hit their dogs to show them right from wrong. My personal opinion is the same with animals as it is with dogs. Ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good! In my eyes thats a much better way of training.

What we have to remember aswell is a tap on the nose and a tap on the bum (of a child) is much much different to actually hitting!

I honestly think for children all this uproar about not smacking kids has been blown out of proportion.

I have been known to repetatively (spelt wrong?) tap one of my dogs on her forehead when she was a pup to stop her nipping (with my forefinger in a tapping motion), not that it hurt her but that she found it annoying enough to stop the nipping. If that makes sense. Some people may class that as totally out of order but it didnt hurt her it was just an annoying feeling.

I would never however physically hurt my pets and I dont agree with it in training methods. Nor do I agree with choker chains being used in training either.

:)

Thanks for taking the time out to reply Tatty Bear - any other pets group opinions are also welcome.

A controlled tap...no problem. Just enough to let the dog know you are the boss, certainly shouldn't be so hard the dog yelps (as I saw in the park once :mad: )

I hate seeing people whack their dogs - I wish everyone understood that it just doesn't work anyway :mad:

What Tattybear said - rewarding good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour works much better anyway (although I do sometimes say a firm 'no!' )

You can liken it to parenting... child (a) gets bellowed at & whacked whenever they do something wrong... child (b) is rewarded, paised & made to feel loved, supported & cared for. When they do something wrong they get that "we are very disappointed in you" look and are mortified about it. Which child will grow up to be a better person?!

Dependds on what 'hitting' means. Harsh whacks or slaps I would of said aren't any good at all as the dog will just learn to fear anyone with a raised hand. With some of the more unruly dogs I've known a light tap has been required if only to get the dogs attention back on me rather than hanging off the end of the lead trying to chase the cat or whatever. Firm short vocal commandds and that all important single word 'NO' is far better as dogs pick up far more from a tone of voice.

What would be the point of hitting an animal? Unless you know that they can associate the punishment with the 'problem' behaviour then all you'll do is teach them to fear you.

EDIT- by 'hitting' I mean angry or hard hits rather than taps to gain attention.

Dependds on what 'hitting' means. Harsh whacks or slaps I would of said aren't any good at all as the dog will just learn to fear anyone with a raised hand. With some of the more unruly dogs I've known a light tap has been required if only to get the dogs attention back on me rather than hanging off the end of the lead trying to chase the cat or whatever. Firm short vocal commandds and that all important single word 'NO' is far better as dogs pick up far more from a tone of voice.

it definately depends on the dog whatever training you use. For instance when I walk mine on the lead. Molly has a halti and sometimes still pulls, a sharp tug, a stern voice, nothing works when she is in 'a mood'. However my other dog Pippa, all I need to do is gently tug the lead and she slows down and looks up at me as if to say 'look mummy im a good girl' whereas Molly turns round as if to say 'stop telling me to slow down, why dont you try walking faster!'

I sometimes walk a full grown German Shepherd and he really likes pulling. His owner shouts and yanks on the lead or whacks him with the end of it which has little effect. However when I've got him I make darn sure the lead is as short as possible so he has no choice but to walk at my side. Usually within a few minutes he has cottoned on to the fact that if he wants that extra few inches of freedom he'd better not pull. or he's back into heel position. He gets distracted by loads of things though which we're still working on and people must wonder what I'm up to as I will suddenly reverse direction as I'm not about to be dragged up a tree after the squirrel.

Hitting or shouting at an animal suggests to that animal that you've lost control and they, in return lose respect for their handler.

There is no reason to hit an animal - positive reinforcement methods actually prove that. I'll be the first to say that mine have been tapped but I've regretted it straight after because I've done it out of my own bad mood - not because it would help them.

No physical force need be used on a dog (I say dog because I do not take that much interest in training other animals ;) ) - no matter what it is, it's still attention and that's what they thrive on. Ignoring the behaviour (as long as it's safe to do so) works much better.

A great book is Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot The Dog!' it's about how to train any animal or, indeed person through positive reinforcement.

I've now taken on a fully positive reinforcement routine - I'm happier, my dogs are happier - and are complying much easier.

Personally I'd rather have a dog that is able to make the right choices about how to behave (which is what personal reinforcement is all about) than a dog that is afraid to do anything other than what's been drummed into it. :)

In my opinion No. However some people do tap their dogs and hit their dogs to show them right from wrong. My personal opinion is the same with animals as it is with dogs. Ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good! In my eyes thats a much better way of training.

What we have to remember aswell is a tap on the nose and a tap on the bum (of a child) is much much different to actually hitting!

I honestly think for children all this uproar about not smacking kids has been blown out of proportion.

I have been known to repetatively (spelt wrong?) tap one of my dogs on her forehead when she was a pup to stop her nipping (with my forefinger in a tapping motion), not that it hurt her but that she found it annoying enough to stop the nipping. If that makes sense. Some people may class that as totally out of order but it didnt hurt her it was just an annoying feeling.

I would never however physically hurt my pets and I dont agree with it in training methods. Nor do I agree with choker chains being used in training either.

:)

Agree with Tattybear - particuarly as I have a doberman and dobes do not respond well to negative reinforcement- much better to reward the good behaviour, however, as per TB, I tap Ailsa on the nose if she grumbles or barks excessively- not a harsh tap, but a tap and a 'NO!' to tell her the behaviour is not acceptable. Trouble is, stubborn breed she is, she still insists on having the last word/grumble - I should have called her Muttley.

Mind you, there are a few monster kids out there that could do with a good slapping...only joking (or am I?)

My dog gets a tap on the end of the nose when she does something wrong. E.g chewing a toilet roll or stealing food as I don't really see how ignoring that kind of bad behaviour can let them know it isn't good behaviour (if anyone wants to enlighten me, feel free!). I know that if I was a dog and I stole food and my owners found out and didn't tell me off or ignored the fact I had done that I'd think it was great and that it wouldn't matter if I did it again!

However, when she needs to be told off for barking/being aggressive with other dogs/general naughty behaviour she gets verbally told 'no' in a low voice and then excluded from the 'pack'.

I think with us it generally depends what she's done as to the action we take. I would never ever whack her or hit her hard. What's that going to do apart from make her scared of us?

just to put thing sinto perspective especially after someone has mentioned "pack" in amongst the comments. the dog forms part of your pack as i'm sure you all know. now if they were all dogs how would they teach one another to behave?
usually by biting the ass of the dog that's in the wrong - or thats how my oldest dog trained visiting pups who got a little rambunctious.

i don't condone beating the drap out of a dog, but a little tap on the butt doesn't do any harm IMHO.

just to put thing sinto perspective especially after someone has mentioned "pack" in amongst the comments. the dog forms part of your pack as i'm sure you all know. now if they were all dogs how would they teach one another to behave?
usually by biting the ass of the dog that's in the wrong - or thats how my oldest dog trained visiting pups who got a little rambunctious.

i don't condone beating the drap out of a dog, but a little tap on the butt doesn't do any harm IMHO.

Actually, a 'pack leader' in a dog pack will show their authority by completely ignoring the less important members of the pack.

That typical 'I'm so much better than you' snuff that dogs give when they turn their nose up to a younger, bouncier or weaker dog is typical of what a dog would do.

Occassionally, if a younger/lower status dog was getting too much - an inhibiting bite to the muzzle is given but it is a hold on the muzzle, to prove that control can be had over that dog.

gempud - I agree - unfortunately behaviours such as stealing food is a self reinforcing behaviour which is difficult to stop however - I'm sure you didn't mean your post to sound like I read it - but I read it as though when you come in five minutes (or longer) after the event has occurred you have to tell the dog it's wrong. By this time the dog just associates your presence with the punishment not the theft of the food - so no, you really shouldn't punish it if it's not caught in the act.

The best way to stop a dog from stealing food is to use a distraction tool such as rattle bottle, or training discs or a correction spray - depending on what you dog can tolerate. I can't train Takara using the correction spray because it terrifies her!

When the dog moves towards the food, throw a rattle bottle or training discs on the ground near the dog (then it doesn't appear to be coming from you - but as a result of the behaviour, whilst shouting comes directly from you so they learn to only do it when you're not around). The dog will turn to look at what has startled it and then you can reward for leaving the food to look at the distraction.

In time, the dog associates the uncomfortable, startling noise with stealing food and, because the behaviour hasn't been reinforced as the dog hasn't eaten the food, it stops doing it - although it does often take a long time.

I'm afraid, my dogs have been hit (by my dad) when stealing from the bin or the side and one has become handshy so I've got strong opinions on it!
If I'm stood at the worktop preparing food and Takara gets up to have a look, a quick hip flick in her direction gets her out of the way without using my hands (as hands are used for all reinforcement - fuss, food, play etc)

I personally dont like hitting in any form but I do feel that firm commands sometimes work well. If you have stated your dominance they should follow your commands.

I'm not picking an argument, just interested if you could elaborate on that?

I like to work on the idea that my dogs are able to make their own choices and that it's my job to guide them to the right choices and give them enough motivation to do as I ask.

We have a dog on our street. It's terrified of it's 'owners' always escaping, they come running after it shouting/swearing behaving aggressively etc. eventually it flings itself on the floor and is paralysed with fear and submission. When you get close to this dog he is incredibly head shy/hand shy and nervous.
I know this dogs gets whacked I have never seen it but I know by how it behaves towards humans that he is abused.
After seeing how a young dog has been turned into a nervous wreck i would definately never hit my dog. I wouldn't before, but when you see this you really understand how it really does no good.

I also think about the example we set to our children and peers. This dog reg. escapes i have caught him and given him back to one of the kids he lives with, he wouldn't walk with her, so she whacked him on the head. I do not believe she is older than 5!!!
Where has she learnt that from? I cannot get the dog to do as i wish so i whack it like my parents do. I know i am making assumptions but a 5yr old would not just hit their beloved pet without having seen it before and judging by how the adults behave towards the dog, again i have no doubt it does happen behind closed doors.

I am sometimes baffled by the expectations we have of our animals we expect them to be mind readers, understand right and wrong like a human would and obey commands they have never been taught, yet alot of people do not provide the training and environment/boundries to allow the dog to understand and do what is expected of it i.e. asking a dog to recall while screaming, shouting, jumping up and down and generally behaving aggressively.

I realise this is an extreme and i am sure you would not behave in this manner but please consider the confusion you would cause your loyal trusting friend. Thats how i look at it :)

I do report them to RSPCA in case your were wondering:rant:

Hehe rant over

I agree completely Adz,

What's more, if that child gets bitten, who's fault will it be?! Morally, the parents' if they allow her (worse still encourage her) to behave towards it that way, but legally - the dog's and so it will be destroyed :(

It amazes me how many people yell at their dog for not coming back... well, I wouldn't come back if you were acting so aggressively towards me!
Another one I saw today was a dog that had run off, the owner got angry (which actually, she doesn't usually) and yelled at it, so it ran off further.

Then when it came back she shouted 'now you stay there!' as she walked up to it - that would have been the perfect opportunity to reward the recall (even if it wasn't close enough to her) and encourage the dog to stay where it was, but instead she shouted at it to stay where it was so it ran off again :rolleyes:

I do feel sorry for our dogs - I recently read an excellent passage on what it's like to be a dog in our world... am off to find it now!

Lotti - No, I didn't mean it the way you read it :) I mean literally catching her in the act of stealing food as I walk into the room. That's when she gets her tap on the nose and sent to the corner. It was just a small example of what I meant though....it's not really a problem. :)

My apologies - just wanted to make sure other's didn't read it the same way as I did!

If Ailsa ever does the running off thing, (she has a thing about running towards water when shes ben running/. playing for a certain amount of time and we have to spot the signs and get her back onleash before she does a runner), we try to get her attention and run in the opposite direction, calling her in an excited 'what's this?' way- that works (usually).

No point ranting and raving at her - we want her back under control, not heading further into the distance. We always carry a bottle of water but sometimes, all she wants to do is paddle!

yep - Takara responds to running away as well and comes chasing after me. Eddy on the other hand look as if to say 'ok! meet you on the way back!' and carries on with what he's doing :rolleyes: :lol:

lol yeah Lottie Albert does that and gives me the "gee mum do you think i am stupid" look x