View Full Version : Hospital bugs..how serious are they


fatalstarlite
18-05-2007, 21:53
can anyone tell me what D-Ciff is plz all i no its a hospital bug and my nan who is in hospital keeps getting it...nurses and docs are saying its nothing to worry about but stopped rest of elderly reletives from visiting her

miniminch
18-05-2007, 21:57
can anyone tell me what D-Ciff is plz all i no its a hospital bug and my nan who is in hospital keeps getting it...nurses and docs are saying its nothing to worry about but stopped rest of elderly reletives from visiting her
Its what hoodies call the cleaning products 'It's De Cif!! innit!'

medusa
18-05-2007, 22:04
The bacterium the hospital are going on about is actually Clostridium difficile (shortened to C.diff) which causes very severe symptoms of gastroenteritis, which is dangerous to vulnerable health groups.

The major reason for the growth in C.diff is that the alcohol hand gels that have been brought in to kill MRSA and SSRA are ineffective against it, and so the way to kill both MRSA and C.diff (to be on the safe side) is to scrub your hands with detergent or soap and then use the alcohol rubs. It takes a lot more time, but it's safer.

C difficile is an opportunistic bacterium- it's around in the environment most of the time in low numbers, but in environments like hospitals where the aim is to keep everything clean to prevent infections, bacteria like C difficile can grow unchecked. It's also unaffected by many antibiotics so patients who have their natural flora affected by courses of antibiotics are more at risk of opportunist bacteria.

It's true to say that many of the infections that flourish inside hospitals have to have been brought in somehow, and whilst the infections brought in with patients may not be avoided, those brought in by visitors most certainly can be avoided, by preventing the visitors if hygiene methods fail.

I understand that this is not necessarily best for the patients mentally and emotionally- but if they are being made ill whilst they are vulnerable by bacteria coming in on visitors, that needs to be a priority.

There is, of course, another possible reason for stopping elderly relatives visiting- it could be to prevent the C diff from being spread to the visitors who may also be vunerable.

neeeeeeeeeek
18-05-2007, 22:10
Cdif is nasty, very nasty. It has been going on nfor a while in hospitals but only recently been getting media attention. If you get it you get your own room, that's the only good thing about it.

fatalstarlite
18-05-2007, 22:13
thanx for the info...not sure if its gud or bad tho..would explain y she in a room on her own tho we always use the hand gel wen we see her jus have to b more dilligent...i bought her some yakult today wondered if that wud help

medusa
18-05-2007, 22:19
The hand gel is totally ineffective against C diff, so you really need to be using soap, hot water and a nail brush if you want to eradicate it off your skin.

Replacing good flora is one of the more helpful things that can happen for her- so the Yakult sounds like a sensible plan.

angle20
18-05-2007, 22:23
C difficile is an opportunistic bacterium- it's around in the environment most of the time in low numbers, but in environments like hospitals where the aim is to keep everything clean to prevent infections, bacteria like C difficile can grow unchecked.


Can you explain this a bit more, medusa?

cressida
18-05-2007, 22:24
I havn't heard of the problem in private (BUPA) hospitals - why is that?

fatalstarlite
18-05-2007, 22:27
thats a v.gud question is it only national health hospitals that seem have these serious bugs..or are private more stritch with their cleaning regime

miniminch
18-05-2007, 22:32
I havn't heard of the problem in private (BUPA) hospitals - why is that?
because most bugs live on the poor:gag:

angle20
18-05-2007, 22:36
thats a v.gud question is it only national health hospitals that seem have these serious bugs..or are private more stritch with their cleaning regime

Private hospitals probably have lower bed occupancy rates. A downside of the drive to get waiting lists down is that NHS wards have had high occupancy and high turnover of patients: circumstances which are not conducive to combating infections.

pattricia
18-05-2007, 22:39
There have been cases of superbugs in private hospitals as well, but not as many.

medusa
18-05-2007, 22:47
Can you explain this a bit more, medusa?

In hospitals there's a confict of interests going on. If people didn't come and go constantly then there wouldn't be the infection problem, because the bacteria come in on the patients and visitors and then get spread around in the environment. No matter how good the hospital hygiene is, most of the infections are actually spread person to person.

If you look at the patient population as a whole, you have a much higher proportion of people who are made vulnerable by illness, disability and morbidity, which is often made worse by surgery and antibiotics depleting their natural immune system. All in all, you have the best group of the whole community for spreading infections, all pushed together.

C difficile is a common commensil bacterium for many of the population. Unfortunately it's also one of the huge range of bacteria that cause illnesses when it gets into vulnerable patients. It's spread by insufficient hygiene- but since it's not possible to sterilise all patients and visitors before they enter the wards and put the vulnerable patients at risk, then it's not the sort of hygiene that can ever be perfect.

What we know is that trying to kill all of the bacteria with antibiotics just doesn't work. In fact in the vulnerable groups like the sick elderly, killing off natural flora just allows things like C difficile a greater opportunity since it won't be competing for space and resources in the host (ie. the hospital patient) with other bacteria which normally have a balance and keep the nasties in check.

What visitors can do is to try not to bring the bacteria in to the hospital with them if they visit. Good personal hygiene actually does help. Having a shower or bath before you visit, wearing clean clothes, washing your hands after visiting the loo and again before coming onto the ward- these things are likely to limit the number of bacteria, cold viruses and the like that you bring with you.

In the recent past the hospitals have realised that putting the onus on alcohol hand gels to reduce the possibility of MRSA and the like getting into wards is actually playing into the hands of C difficile (and probably a few more bacteria that they haven't found out about yet) because they aren't affected by short term alcohol exposure. A good scrub with soap and hot water is all it takes to kill C difficile, but lots of people stopped doing that once the hand rubs became the norm.

angle20
18-05-2007, 22:56
killing off natural flora just allows things like C difficile a greater opportunity since it won't be competing for space and resources in the host (ie. the hospital patient) with other bacteria which normally have a balance and keep the nasties in check.


Thanks - got it, I think.

stacey22
29-07-2007, 17:48
The bacterium the hospital are going on about is actually Clostridium difficile (shortened to C.diff) which causes very severe symptoms of gastroenteritis, which is dangerous to vulnerable health groups.

The major reason for the growth in C.diff is that the alcohol hand gels that have been brought in to kill MRSA and SSRA are ineffective against it, and so the way to kill both MRSA and C.diff (to be on the safe side) is to scrub your hands with detergent or soap and then use the alcohol rubs. It takes a lot more time, but it's safer.

C difficile is an opportunistic bacterium- it's around in the environment most of the time in low numbers, but in environments like hospitals where the aim is to keep everything clean to prevent infections, bacteria like C difficile can grow unchecked. It's also unaffected by many antibiotics so patients who have their natural flora affected by courses of antibiotics are more at risk of opportunist bacteria.

It's true to say that many of the infections that flourish inside hospitals have to have been brought in somehow, and whilst the infections brought in with patients may not be avoided, those brought in by visitors most certainly can be avoided, by preventing the visitors if hygiene methods fail.

I understand that this is not necessarily best for the patients mentally and emotionally- but if they are being made ill whilst they are vulnerable by bacteria coming in on visitors, that needs to be a priority.

There is, of course, another possible reason for stopping elderly relatives visiting- it could be to prevent the C diff from being spread to the visitors who may also be vunerable.

my baby daughter got mrsa from sheffield childrens hospital when she was 2 month old she had it a further 6 months, some of the doctors never washed thir hands, she had an operation at he time, brain surgery she had a vp shunt put into her heaed to drain fluid off her brain as she has spina bifida and hydrocepolas

Daven
29-07-2007, 18:02
I havn't heard of the problem in private (BUPA) hospitals - why is that?

Because as soon as anyone gets it they evict them to the NHS hospitals.

Tarkus
29-07-2007, 18:15
This may be true but I have to tell you that NHS hospitals regularly discharge infected patients into care homes and the community. it may also interest you to learn that funeral directors are very often not informed as to whether the deceased had an infectious disease or not. This is just a few of the reasons why these diseases continue to proliferate and grow. The hospitals operate a 'N.I.M.B.Y.' strategy and they are as much part of the problem as they are the solution.

Daven
29-07-2007, 18:23
This may be true but I have to tell you that NHS hospitals regularly discharge infected patients into care homes and the community. it may also interest you to learn that funeral directors are very often not informed as to whether the deceased had an infectious disease or not. This is just a few of the reasons why these diseases continue to proliferate and grow. The hospitals operate a 'N.I.M.B.Y.' strategy and they are as much part of the problem as they are the solution.

And what you need to be made aware of is that not all people who have MRSA aquired it in hospital. Very recent research which is still ongoing is showing that as many as 30% of the population have it and are not aware they have it - and have not been anywhere near a hospital.

Tarkus
29-07-2007, 18:30
I'm totally aware of this. My point is that it does nothing to help the situation.
I'm also aware of the fact that there are virtually no MRSA cases in Dutch hospitals and this is because ever patient is swabbed and decolonised if they are carrying it.
It is possible to do a great deal better by following the examples of others.

Daven
29-07-2007, 18:36
I'm totally aware of this. My point is that it does nothing to help the situation.
I'm also aware of the fact that there are virtually no MRSA cases in Dutch hospitals and this is because ever patient is swabbed and decolonised if they are carrying it.
It is possible to do a great deal better by following the examples of others.

Every patient who is admitted into the NGH is routinely swabbed for MRSA. If their admission is planned then they will be given the appropriate treatment before admission. If their admission is as an emergency they will be isolated in a separate room as soon as the results are received and treatment started straight away.

Daven
29-07-2007, 18:55
This may be true but I have to tell you that NHS hospitals regularly discharge infected patients into care homes and the community. it may also interest you to learn that funeral directors are very often not informed as to whether the deceased had an infectious disease or not. This is just a few of the reasons why these diseases continue to proliferate and grow. The hospitals operate a 'N.I.M.B.Y.' strategy and they are as much part of the problem as they are the solution.

If strict universal precautions are taken with every case then there will not be a problem. Maybe you need to look at your own practices if you feel that you are at risk.

Daven
30-11-2007, 20:31
I havn't heard of the problem in private (BUPA) hospitals - why is that?

Because they tell lies,

Daven
30-11-2007, 20:39
thats a v.gud question is it only national health hospitals that seem have these serious bugs..or are private more stritch with their cleaning regime

Private hospitals have the luxury of hand picking patients - all admissions are planned and so can be tested first for such things as MRSA - any patient found to have this will be treated before admission. NHS hospitals are on the front line of health care and take anyone in need. This means that NHS hospitals will always have patients who are admitted as an emergency with MRSA and will need to be treated whilst in hospital. Therefore, anyone who gets MRSA whilst in a private hospital MUST have caught it whilst in hospital - and it DOES happen - it is just kept very quiet. A very dangerous practice imo and one that is always conveniently 'forgotten' by the profit- making private health care businesses.

angle20
03-02-2008, 13:00
There are occasions when the Muslim dimension has to be mentioned:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=LXVWHITXAXW2VQFIQMFSFGGAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nislam403.xml

Women training in several hospitals in England have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands, because it is regarded as immodest in Islam. Universities and NHS trusts fear many more will refuse to co-operate with new Department of Health guidance, introduced this month, which stipulates that all doctors must be "bare below the elbow". The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds....

Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to "scrub" as this left her forearms exposed.



However, there might be a solution:

One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows.

wondertec
04-02-2008, 14:28
i thought the hand gels worked again C diff etc, that's why they have them everywhere in hosp, every person has them on every bed and every ward on entering and leaving. Also, do the nursing staff know that you have got your nan some Yakult? Usually has to prescribed on drug card and ordered from the hosp kitchens. Might make a difference to her symptoms and treatment if they know / don't know..... Just a thought

Saffy
04-02-2008, 17:22
I went to Hospital recently because a sewing needle had gone through my finger .. including through the bone and they therefore had to operate.

I went along to the ward and had blood taken - the blood gushed everywhere, including onto the bed I was sat beside.

I went home and came back the following morning and it was rather off putting to see that the pillow that the blood had splattered onto was still on the bed; although it had been turned over so that the clean side was showing.

I was just thankful that I didnt have to stay in longer than for the time it took to be wheeled to the theatre and back !