This is a very delicate subject so I will try to be as careful as possible, however a few things are concerning me about how social services carry out investigations in abuse cases of children.

As I run a site for pagan parents I have been contacted by families who have been victimised for their beliefs by social services and other such agencies. The most current case is Penny Campbell whose husband was arrested for ritually abusing young girls aparently based on the fact they had a number of pagan books in their house and openly told people he was pagan.
This is BTW a case which has been resolved and it was found Mr Cambell was innocent, otherwise I wouldn't bring it up; a copy of their story can be found on the pagan parents site. (http://www.ukpaganparents.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=49&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

What it is that is concerning me is that although there must be measures in place to protect children, I was told the other day that children undergo medicals BEFORE anything is actually proved. A mere suspicion can mean that social services can tear a family apart and then subject a small child to an intimate medical examinations.

Now most women find going for a smear the most uncomfortable and embarrasing moment of their life and many rightly or wrongly avoid going because of this...how is a 3 year old going to feel?

Again I do appreciate that if a child is being abused in such a sick manner then these things are necessary to gather evidence and will probably be in comparison more of the same. My concern is that if social services are so keen to rush in they will in fact cause just as much trauma to a young child who has NOT been abused as an abuser would.

My step sister was subjected to the plethora of the SS's mistakes so I cannot say I am a huge fan, I do know they catch the miserable sickos who prey on our children, however, I also know how they let our children downis this more of the same?

moon

Firstly, I think Social Workers (especially CP ones) do an amazing job, yes, sometimes they make mistakes but the vast majority of the time they get things right.

In my experience, it is VERY rare for SS to remove a child from the home, unless that child is at considerable risk.

As regards the 'medical examination', IIRC this would only take place if they were confident a Conviction would follow the evidence. Put yourself in that situation, your son/daughter makes an allegation of sexual assault, wouldnt you want the proof to convict the person resonible?

It is a sensitive subject and I cant believe that this guy was accused of such terrible things just because he was a pagan, there must have been an allegation or something??

As I said I do believe that SS do FAR much more good than bad - although the mistakes they make are often catastrophic - or reported that way.

Did anyone see the documentry on the CP team at Bristol SS on BBC 1 the other night? - it provides a real insight into what they do, its on again next week.

Mat

Hi there,

"there must have been an allegation or something"

probably sums up the fears people have about CP Social Workers. ANYONE can make an unsubstantiated allegation - the Social Worker then needs to check it out, gather evidence, work to see if it's true or false.

If they get it wrong, they either wreck a family or maybe end up with a dead child.

It's a tough job, but, they've signed up to do it. BUT they need to do what they can to get it right. It's no use saying 'we did it for the good of teh child' if the wrong person is accused of abuse. If someone gets a bee in their bonnet about a local pagan, atheist, Fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, gay - select your minority here, please - they can make their allegation and sit back and watch the sparks fly.

I don't view "an allegation" as being evidence enough to start carrying out traumatically invasive medical procedures on a kid. When you start legal proceedings that will impact whole families for years to come, you need a high standard of evidence. Just saying "he's a pagan and I suspect he abuses his kid" might pass as a denunciation to the Gestapo of Nazi Germany or the OGPU in Stalinist Russia, but the children and parents and our society as a whole deserve better.

If our social services get a reputation for being 'shoot first and ask questions later' then that will only benefit the ******** who do abuse kids, because people will be less likely to raise an issue when it needs raising. and the system as a whole will be buried under the weight of trying to prosecute innocent people.

Joe

there was an allegation in the cambells albeit a very vague one. Happily at least for the cambells the situation has been resolved.

My concern is what the SS consider as an allegation and from whom, that could warrant a small child being investigated like that.

I do know that the SS do some good work, I have unfortunately only witnessed their mistakes. As a pagan and parent myself the stories of people like Penny Camell make me extremely concerned to open my mouth about my beliefs.

Moon

I work in childcare, and therefore have undergone training in child protection.
My trianing would not lead me to have worries about pagans at all. We are taught to consider anything which would cause 'significant harm' these are the key words.
A child with a cigarette burn on their arm may have suffered accidentally but possibly not and would be carefully monitored and a log would be kept of concerns.
A child who disclosed something serious for certain would be detained in our care until social services/police could come.
We have to consider - if the child can safely go home while enquiries are made, if the child is likely to be making it up etc and keep detailed logs.
I abide by the belief 'better safe than sorry' and would rather have a parent cross with me for being wrong than a child dead who had previously been in my care.
However, a small amount of common sense mingled with appropriate training can go a long way.
Investigating a parent for belief is a form of prejudice but many people do not recognise paganism as they would buddism for example.
Education is perhaps the key.

I don't view "an allegation" as being evidence enough to start carrying out traumatically invasive medical procedures on a kid.

Joe, I think it depends from whom the allegation came, if it was the child, then I just try to think if it was my daughter and if that was the way to gain evidence for conviction then so be it.



My concern is what the SS consider as an allegation and from whom, that could warrant a small child being investigated like that.

Moon, I agree that the nature of 'allegations' are just that - allagations and not certs. After a child makes an allegation it would be upto to the police to decide whether to take further action, and they would do this by interviewing the child (by skilled, highly trained officers). If they can establish that the child is telling the truth, then they may gather further evidence (in the form of examination etc)

The whole area of CP is a vague one in the sense that it is really difficult to stand up in court or wherever and explain what has happened to them - they probably wont understand it themselves. On top of this, the children most a risk from paedophiles are the most niave and vulverable ones, which means these kids dont ususally 'understand' what is appropraite behaviour from an Adult.

Mat

S.47 Children Act 1989 (1) (b)

"Where a local authority have reasonable cause to suspect that a child who lives, or is found, in their area is suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm, the authority shall make, or cause to be made, such enquiries as they consider neccessary to enable them to decide whether thay should take any action to safeguard or promote the child's welfare"

Most S.47 investigations are triggered by an allegation or a disclosure. SS have a DUTY to investigate- it is enshrined in law- it's not an option. However, not all disclosures result in removing a child- very very few do.

Those that suggest that CP workers do the job out of choice are right- we do! but we do it with a genuine care for the welfare of children not out of malice or meglamania. CP is one of the most stressful jobs and workers generally last a few years in the front line. It's very easy for those that don't do the job (and the legal and moral minefield that it is) to preach to those that do and know exactly what it entails!!!!

I have the upmost respect for the people who put themselves between a rock and a hard place by choice...don't get me wrong. I appreciate very much the horrible choices faced by social services from day to day in their jobs. I am sure there are some great SS workers out there...there are good and bad in all jobs.
I do not think some social workers do things out of malice or meglamania but sheer stupidty in some instances.

I have seen the mess the SS made of my sister through doing what they deem necessary to secure her welfare....and in doing that put her welfare at risk - that is BTW something that happened a while ago - indeed before the child protection act. Seems however that it is still hapenning and in Sheffield too. Hope it goes someway to at least explaining my initial concerns before this revelation on examination.

Moon

As a Father I have to say that any suspicion or accutation has to be investigated then CS have to calculate the risk.
If they are in any doubt that the child may come to harm then they must take the appropiate action.
If the parent is proven to be not guilty, the chances are that the damage has been done to all the family.
We don't know the CS side of this alligation just yours and should be considered that the CS did what they did because they may have been a threat to the child.

I don't understand why someone being a Pagan would leed to their being accused of child abuse. If they were a satanist I could see how the link may be made as "satanic abuse" is known of - or at least there have been previous accusations of such things. But Paganism?? I do not understand.

I agree that social services need to take all accusations seriously but if some people are making accusations against others just because of personal differences then perhaps some action should be taken against them for wasting social services time and causing distress for the children.

Moon maiden.

Can you give me info on where i can find out more about paganism.I would like to study it and its beliefs.thanks.

many accusations against pagan are born out of ignorance and prdjudice. Thankfully they are few and far between, however when they hit they hit hard.
Because of ignorance of what paganism is, people automatically assume that they are devil worshippers. Sad really but really dangerous in many instances because of the damage it can cause to the family.

You are right I only have the families word on these accusations, I haven't seen the CS records, however many national newspapers in Scotland have taken this story up. It is sad that it only appears to be the Scottish SS that seem to jump on the devil worship band wagon. I do have a friend up in Orkney who was battling for rights for her grandson...their argument for her and her family being unfit- pagan. I have seent he SS reports for that one BTW and that was more a custody battle than abuse.

As for information on paganism....
UK Pagan (http://www.ukpagan.com)
An Fianna (http://www.anfianna.com)
Witchvox - an international site (http://www.witchvox.com)
Dragonswood Magazine (http://www.dragonswood.org.uk)
Sheffield Pagan Federation (http://www.pf-lc-sheffield.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk)
Children Of Artemis (http://www.witchcraft.org)
Pagan Association (http://www.paganassociation.co.uk)

Just a few of the thousands.

Moon