Does anyone else generally get the feeling that this section of the forum has changed a great deal in the last few months or so?

I used to contribute a great deal, but my enthusiasm has somewhat waned since, following the ever growing user base, the Computer and Tech Chat seciton of the forum has turned into a Tech Support forum primarily consisting of only a few questions:

1. Can you recommend an ISP for x criteria.
2. What laptop should I buy for under £400
3. What is this computer worth.
4. How do I connect my computer(s) to each other and/or the Internet
5. My/Your/Every Internet Service Provider is rubbish/slow/expensive/stalinist


Personally, I would like to see this section of the Forum split up. Possibly into two sections, one called "Tech Support" one called "Tech Chat" so as to split off the help requests from the random discussions. Possibly including an FAQ for Tech Support containing responses for the above 5 or other questions..


Any thoughts?

Mainly 'cos people can't be arsed to search a) this forum and b) the Web.

Most (but not all) of the information requested is available here or elsewhere.

Sure we're subject to the same idiocy as any other forum providing help - but I'd like to see a space for tech discussion that isn't littered with help requests - and similarly it might provide better help for those who do need help to have it all in one place, not split up by random discussion.

Having had another look at the forum, it might even be worth splitting Support into Simple and Advanced as the questions are generally either from people who know absolutely nothing and need guidance, or from experienced people looking for thoughts from others on a very difficult issue.

Just musing..

I'd like to see an approved list of helpers who allowed to post advice rather than have everyone and his dog leap in with "buy this piece of kit" type advice

the number of people, with no technical knowledge, who say buy a laptop to go with their desktop PC and then ask how to share their connection and are told to go buy a certain router is astonishing

it's very rare anyone bothers to find out if it's a cable connection or adsl, does the old PC have UTP connections or is it a USB modem there's a lot of things that could mean the kit they are being told to buy isn't suitable

I have visions of lots of brand new kit going on ebay or in the bin because of advice like this

it's wasting other peoples money, advice shouldn't be offered unless you are prepared to reimburse the cost if it's wrong

Esme, is that a vote for or against :p

Certainly seems worth considering for a tech support forum - or at least labelling those who are designated to help with a specific title by their avatar.

Poll added to garner opinion.

I'll flag this thread up for Geoff.

A similar question was raised the other day - I don't think we'd want to make it too restrictive, though, by labelling people as experts.

But - will flag this to the Gaffer. :)

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on who gives what help.. but in any case having seperate space for it would be useful methinks.

Personally cant see the point, I read selectively and the volume of posts in this area is not huge.......

who is to say who is an expert? the problem with computers is you can be an expert in a certain field but know diddly squat in another!

i think its a good idea to split it and maybe into a more advanced and basic section.

and i tend to agree, someone asks a question about getitng a new/upgrading an exsisting computer and you get too many people replying based on their own needs and requirments..

thats a for :P

and sorry to rant but I've just left another thread where someone wants to share a connection and there's 14 posts, some of which are highly technical, some of which say "buy a router" some of which give links to suppliers of routers costing anywhere between £30 and £150

and not one person apart from myself has tried to find out if the OP is on cable/adsl/dialup if they have a USB or UTP modem I mean they might even have a wifi hub and connect the existing PC by a wifi card in the back already

everyone is keen to get them to go buy some kit tho, because it worked in their case, well big deal not every case is the same :rant:

sorry I shall put the soapbox away

hows harleykim btw ? any results off the tilt table thing

Look at how people post in the forum, and you will see that many are incapable of reading the guidelines and of posting in the relevant sections anyway!

hows harleykim btw ? any results off the tilt table thing

Nothing conclusive - she's a bit fed up, but otherwise ok, thanks.

Send her a PM to give her something to do while waiting for the shopping to turn up :-)

who is to say who is an expert? the problem with computers is you can be an expert in a certain field but know diddly squat in another! ...

true

one way is a thing I saw over at castlecops, where people are trained to remove malware using tools like hijackthis and they aren't allowed to advise people unless they complete the course

perhaps someone could devise something similar

... I really must have a go at that course when I get chance, I know a fair bit about removing malware but I bet I don't know it all

true

one way is a thing I saw over at castlecops, where people are trained to remove malware using tools like hijackthis and they aren't allowed to advise people unless they complete the course

perhaps someone could devise something similar



Why not just point people to the 'castlecops' site?

true

one way is a thing I saw over at castlecops, where people are trained to remove malware using tools like hijackthis and they aren't allowed to advise people unless they complete the course

perhaps someone could devise something similar

... I really must have a go at that course when I get chance, I know a fair bit about removing malware but I bet I don't know it all

I like the idea of considering changing the structure, although as has been pointed out some people just post stuff anywhere anyway! :)

I'm not keen on this 'designated expert' idea - there would always be someone who'd want to sue the 'expert' if things went pear-shaped. :)

As a further thought.. I agree with JoeP on the idea that the forum ought not promote members as designated experts, but if it's feasible and possible to implement perhaps people getting help in a Tech Support forum could provide feedback on those giving help on a ratings basis..

"This person/These people solved the problem I raised in this thread" and then those who provide help can have a little helper/support rating added.

On an implementation basis, perhaps if there is an invisible field added to users, which if 0 is not displayed so as to no affect the rest of the forum, but could be added to or taken from by user feedback in tech support forum and then displayed. Or perhaps, only displayed next to posts made in the tech-support forum.....

again, just musing.

Why not just point people to the 'castlecops' site?can do, but we can give local advice, in some cases we can even go visit, sometimes the person has very little technical knowledge and needs more handholding than castlecops can give

plus the castlecops thing is more for malware, I was thinking of stopping some poor sod being told to go to PC W*rld and spend money on inappropriate kit

I know very little about computers and use this section to ask for tech help. Think it must be frustrating for those more 'in the know' than me and don't want to spoil theirs bit by filling up the thread list page with constant, can you help questions :)

The advice and help I've found in this section has been invaluable and I thank you all for sharing :)

...I'm not keen on this 'designated expert' idea - there would always be someone who'd want to sue the 'expert' if things went pear-shaped. :)

thats the sort of thing I want to stop, as it is anyone can give advice and if it turns out to be expensively wrong then there's no comeback

if you are going to give advice you should be accountable, people might actually stop and think about the advice they give then

I think the concept of seperating the forum's into two sub-sections is a good one. However I don't like the idea of having 'experts' offering advice. Who would assess their suitability? What would happen if things went wrong? Would having 'experts' negate the advice that other users offered using their own experience?

At the moment, users make an informed choice based on information they see. I don't think the forum should police this process.

IMO, there are too many issues that would need to be addressed for an 'expert' section to work successfully.

But like I say, splitting the group could be a good idea.

...if you are going to give advice you should be accountable, people might actually stop and think about the advice they give then
I don't mind giving advice to people as I see it, this is no differant to getting advice from a website somewhere via. Google. I wouldn't attempt to hold that website resposible.

I, for one, would be reluctant to give well intentioned advice if the whole accountability came into it....if I am to be accountable - I want a consultancy fee :hihi:

As it is I only offer advice when I am completely confident in my answer.

if you are going to give advice you should be accountable, people might actually stop and think about the advice they give then

thats fine when your getting paid but say i gave advice on upgrading a pc and someone blows there motherboard by stupidly leaving the thing on when they try and stick the dimms in, they might say im accountable because i gave "expert" advice but was explicit enough.

thats the sort of thing I want to stop, as it is anyone can give advice and if it turns out to be expensively wrong then there's no comeback

if you are going to give advice you should be accountable, people might actually stop and think about the advice they give then

Yeah, right.

What's more likely is that no one will give any advice at all. If I had to prove my expertise on here there is NO WAY I would give advice to anyone unless they wanted to pay me. Simple as that. Once you're 'certified' there is an implicit agreement therein that you will deliver knowledge and advice to a set standard, and if you drop the ball you're liable.

I carry several millions in PI cover; but that only applies for paying gigs. So, in order to protect myself, I'd have to charge or keep my mouth firmly shut. The latter would be the course I'd take.

The vast majority of people on here appreciate that they're being given 'caveat emptor' type advice - look at the number of times stuff gets prefixed or suffixeed with warnings.

that's fair enough, I have to admit I wasn't thinking of the insurance aspects just stopping the bad advice

looks like I'm fated to have these teethmarks in my lip for a while longer :)

that's fair enough, I have to admit I wasn't thinking of the insurance aspects just stopping the bad advice

looks like I'm fated to have these teethmarks in my lip for a while longer :)

I think like a lot of advice that's given in the world in general, caveat emptor - buyer beware - is important. :)

The other problem is who would determine who an expert is?

I don't mind giving advice to people as I see it, this is no differant to getting advice from a website somewhere via. Google. I wouldn't attempt to hold that website resposible...

there is absolutely no way I intended for the sheffield forum to be held liable for anything one of it's members said, just the person giving the advice, so for your analogy it wouldn't be google but the website you went to that was at fault

but I can see now that this wasn't one of my more brilliant ideas

I should take my own advice and think a bit more :)

The other problem is who would determine who an expert is?

That's easy.

All future members wishing to post on the sub-Forum can complete an application - SF 436/JP/2.75 - online.
After a primary sift, by the junior Mod, a request can be made for original certificates and Scout Badges.
Survivors of the Second Level Security Check can be invited to host, at their own cost, an Open Panel Selection Interview to be held at a suitable hostelry with adequate provisioning.

The latter may have to be repeated several times in order for expertise (valid for 12 months) to be adequately ascertained.

:D ok ok I give in, it was a bad idea, I didn't think it through :roll:

I knew it was a mistake getting out of bed :hihi:

How about 3 subsections:

1) Tech Support
2) PC Chat
3) Consoles and Gaming

Just a suggestion

How about 3 subsections:

1) Tech Support
2) PC Chat
3) Consoles and Gaming

Just a suggestion

and...and... :)

a subsection for programming (section for each language), website design, css/xhtml.....

Sorry, I'll stop now :)

The other problem is who would determine who an expert is?

As I said before, I think the only valid answer would to have it be determined on user feedback if it were to be done at all.




Regardless, I am seeing some nice feedback that, regardless of how and in how many ways, people would like to see some grouping of tech-talk and that's what I wanted in the first place :)

How about a FAQ section containing detailed answers to common problems or questions? Permissions set up so that a moderator has to approve postings (maybe create a sub group of mods who only look after it), and people asking questions which are in the FAQ can be pointed to a detailed response.

at the risk of making a complete idiot of myself .. again :blush:

any chance of adding a few small pictures to such a section

as in "this picture shows the end of a UTP cable and this is it's socket, this one is the end of a USB cable and this is it's socket" and so on

so there's a reference for the absolute beginner

and harking back to my previous nonsense of an idea how about guidelines for those asking advice, so for those wanting to share a network connection the model number of the existing modem/router/whatever, the isp, how their existing kit is connected would be useful things to know

...prepares to be shot down in flames

I don't know very much about computers but I frequently sit on the side and read postings from those who do and I learn a great deal by doing this.
When I've also asked for advice I have always been satisfied by the response given by others who know much more than I ever will.

I can understand some people will feel frustrated by others who appear not to be as knowledgeable as themselves. But this is where commonsense should make its point and then some self opinionated intellectuals would then know, that they are only as clever as others judge them. Not by how they judge themselves.

To split this section into 'A' or 'Z' streams would be a step backward.

Sub sections do sound like a good idea. Tech support and Tech chat would probably do to start with - more could be introduced later if it's necessary but you don't want to end up with lots of sections with a handful of threads in each. As stated a few FAQs/guides would be helpful as well - simple networking, security etc.

As stated a few FAQs/guides would be helpful as well - simple networking, security etc

Yeah, that would be pretty cool, in fact to get the ball rolling I'll even offer to write a couple of them, not sure what yet, maybe "how to secure your wireless router", or something. Can we get an area for faqs too? or maybe get them stickied in the proposed tech help area.

Sub sections do sound like a good idea. Tech support and Tech chat would probably do to start with - more could be introduced later if it's necessary but you don't want to end up with lots of sections with a handful of threads in each. As stated a few FAQs/guides would be helpful as well - simple networking, security etc.

Precisely.

I'd like to see an approved list of helpers who allowed to post advice rather than have everyone and his dog leap in with "buy this piece of kit" type advice

the number of people, with no technical knowledge, who say buy a laptop to go with their desktop PC and then ask how to share their connection and are told to go buy a certain router is astonishing

it's very rare anyone bothers to find out if it's a cable connection or adsl, does the old PC have UTP connections or is it a USB modem there's a lot of things that could mean the kit they are being told to buy isn't suitable

I have visions of lots of brand new kit going on ebay or in the bin because of advice like this

it's wasting other peoples money, advice shouldn't be offered unless you are prepared to reimburse the cost if it's wrong

and where would i come into the equation? :P
im nowhere near an expert, but techy enough to help people out with stuff
although i dont really "DO" stuff on cpus and buying kit...that really aint my scene

id like a couple of sections for help and how tos etc
and one for general crap, cos i mostly only read the help wanted threads in here ...to help, and have to sieve through loads of none help threads

Sub sections do sound like a good idea. Tech support and Tech chat would probably do to start with - more could be introduced later if it's necessary but you don't want to end up with lots of sections with a handful of threads in each. As stated a few FAQs/guides would be helpful as well - simple networking, security etc.

We toyed with this idea some time ago and thanks to some members got together a few useful sites and resources that we put in the FAQs.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_sf_computer_help

I think the problem with FAQs and such was sourcing them!

I'll flag this thread up for Geoff.

A similar question was raised the other day - I don't think we'd want to make it too restrictive, though, by labelling people as experts.

But - will flag this to the Gaffer. :)

You mean like... threads for the Thick or Thin :confused:

might as well say what you mean ;)

PS. If thats the case, I'm all for it.

We toyed with this idea some time ago and thanks to some members got together a few useful sites and resources that we put in the FAQs.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_sf_computer_help

I think the problem with FAQs and such was sourcing them!

I wouldn't mind putting one or two together when I have time. I'm sure others would do the same. They would need some way of reviewing them though before they are 'published' so to speak. Need to make sure that it's correct info that's being given out :)

I think the best advice i could give is to stop calling it a UTP modem when thats just a type of ethernet cable.

The port is an rj45 ethernet.

Does kind of make the point about people giving out incorrect information though.

If there are no sub-sections, then maybe there should be one or two sticky threads on the same repeated Qs?

For example:

Recommendation for a PC
Recommendation for a laptop
IE problems (This is common for newbies.)
Microsoft Office Problems
Home networking problems

The recommendation threads will forever change as the market change anyway. So if people want to have a look, then they can.

A lot of pricing and recommendations can just be found in magazines like PC World.

With some of these out of the way, then it'll leave some interesting ones for those who wanna exercise their brains. I normally don't post on here much, cos I get asked numerous Qs a day on PC support just from family alone.

[Added] Oh, maybe there should be a structured method of asking questions? Just like many technical forums out there. i.e. Give system information out, so it allows people to deduce what exactly is going on.

i agree with a post made earlier. keep it simple and just have tech chat and tech support.

Any update on this?

Tis a good idea to have sub categories... but i don't like the idea of 'experts' though - for many of the reasons already mentioned. About the best solution seems to be Alkatraz's points system...


.

PING broadcast the-gaffer.sheffieldforum.co.uk (10.255.255.255) 56(84) bytes of data.

How about 3 subsections:

1) Tech Support
2) PC Chat
3) Consoles and Gaming

Just a suggestion

sorry folks, come in on this a bit late but this is the soundest suggestion - to split the tech forum the same style the jobs & employment is split.

We all have our own interests and not - I have NO interest in gaming (so I just ignore posts) - but I think the "regulars" know that if they post a xhtml/flash/php or whatever question, they are likely to get a useful answer or weblink that they hadn't seen

People with IT newbie queries - how does that plug in to that would be funnelled down their own channel ( but i'm not sure if thats tech support or pc chat....) and those who want to post help can

Any update on this?

Tis a good idea to have sub categories... but i don't like the idea of 'experts' though - for many of the reasons already mentioned. About the best solution seems to be Alkatraz's points system...

.
There is no "expert". Everyone who can solve a problem that someone else cannot, will be seen as an "expert", but it does not mean that some people wishes to exclude and divide the users who do post on this section of the board. :huh:

Even though I work in the IT industry, I don't know all hardwares or even desktop problems. Following some rules which are often used within the industries allow people to know exactly how to troubleshoot the problem quicker, and sooner.

I'm definitely a "newbie" when it comes to online gaming. Or web-based questions.

I think everything's really been said at this point, just looking for a response from Geoff...

Tis a good idea to have sub categories...

I think it is OK as it is.

Geoff, your public awaits...


.

I think tech support, and tech chat would be a good idea.