(Please do not move to General Sports Chat as this covers racism as well as sport and will go barely noticed if 'relegated' to sports chat).

During the Spain Vs England match last night, England's black players were subjected to racist abuse by a significant amount of Spanish supporters in the form of "monkey" chanting. Do you think the England team should have walked off in protest?

i voted not sure because im sure fifa would have come down heavy on the english fa

I think holland have given the refs the power to abandon games if there is racist chanting.

I think they were right to play on, a good show of character by the players. If they did walk off it could have harmed any relations (if any) with the Spanish FA and Fifa/Uefa. The relevant bodies will come down on Spain and they should be made to look at racism in their country, after all is there not a Spanish city bidding for the Olympics?

the referee should have abandoned the game, and awarded it to England. I believe he has the authority to do that (i could be wrong) if the abuse is of the scale that we witnessed during the match last night.

the weight of the international FA should come down on spain's moronic supporters good-style!

I heard the "catcalls", and the jeers and shouts, everytime the black players from England got a touch of the ball. it was disgusting!

I thought that "civilised" people had left that sort of idiotic, moronic and puerile behaviour back in the dark ages, where it belongs!

PT

i think they should have walked off in support of their team mates....or perhaps they thought it was amusing?

Moon

I'm glad they stayed on.

It shows that we're not going to be intimidated by petty racist insults by idiots who pay to watch a game of football and use it as a way to shout racial abuse.

I heard today that there were FIFA directors at the match last night and they had the power to abandon the match.
When they did'nt act, Sven should have consulted the England manager (Beckham) and pulled the team off the pitch himself. If the manager and FIFA are not going to protect the team, then who is?.

Next time Spain should be made to play infront of an empty stadium. I just think that if the players walked off it would have been giving in to the lot that were chanting, it would have been a victory for those giving the abuse as they wouldn't have cared if the game was stopped.

The problem with walking off is that the idiots are the winners. That way, any game thats not going your way can be stopped by abusing black players.

What needs to happen is that the authorities involved, the Spanish FA, UEFA and FIFA need to show backbone. Spain should play their following couple of games behind closed doors for starters. The Spanish players should let their feelings be known. The manager of Spain should be kicked out for his disgusting outburst and refusal to even condemn the racist chants (bet your last pound that Sven would have been).

No, they shouldn't have walked off.
Spain should be forced to play their next 6 home games (including World Cup qualifiers) behind closed doors.
A British journalist who's lived in Spain for 20 years reported that at times the majority of Spanish fans were joining in, ranging from young kids to old men. He said it was very disturbing, almost scary because of the numbers involved. Maybe Spain should be made to play all future games in Barcelona where there isn't a long tradition of right wing politics. In Madrid, extreme right wing politics and football have been enmeshed for the past 60 years.
But before we all get on our high horses, let's remember that not long ago England "fans" subjected their own players to the same abuse on the England plane and the players had to endure it for the full length of the flight.

Racism in football in England in the 70s and 80s wasn't dealt with easily by unilateral action (eg abandoning games).

There should be severe punishments after the event to the Spanish football authorities, I am not advocating going soft on anyone.

I don't believe that Spanish society is significantly more racist than British society, and I hear a lot of racist abuse from other "fans" when watching England matches in pubs (so much so that I now avoid watching England matches in pubs). Its just that the obvious booing of black players at grounds has been clamped down on. I think it has been more a matter of "out of sight, out of mind"

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
No, they shouldn't have walked off.
Spain should be forced to play their next 6 home games (including World Cup qualifiers) behind closed doors.
A British journalist who's lived in Spain for 20 years reported that at times the majority of Spanish fans were joining in, ranging from young kids to old men. He said it was very disturbing, almost scary because of the numbers involved. Maybe Spain should be made to play all future games in Barcelona where there isn't a long tradition of right wing politics. In Madrid, extreme right wing politics and football have been enmeshed for the past 60 years.
But before we all get on our high horses, let's remember that not long ago England "fans" subjected their own players to the same abuse on the England plane and the players had to endure it for the full length of the flight.

Yep, Real Madrid was Franco's team, and politically speaking the fans haven't come very far since those days. Apparently when national team games are played in the south, this sort of thing is a rarity - this may have a lot to do with the large number of immigrants in these areas. Madrid, however, is not a very cosmopolitan city.

The whole thing's a disgrace – Aaragones' antics before the game even took place were scandalous, and fanned the flames no end – though you can't ignore the context. Racism just isn't a big issue in Spain like it is here.

And before we get too self-righteous, England fans have been known to indulge in a spot of distasteful behaviour from time to time... You don't have to seach very hard to find areas in which we need to put our house in order.

What I find most distasteful is tabloid newspapers which promote mistrust of foreigners getting on their high horse about racism.

Whenever I have the misfortune to read one of those newspapers I find the implicit racism in them shocking.

It was odd that the Spanish claim "multiculturalism is a new thing in our country", when such a vast slice of their income comes from tourism.

Check out the BBC Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/4022489.stm) Rio was ready to walk off..

I think Gary Neville makes a surprisingly good point:


Right-back Gary Neville feels football's governing bodies would punish England in severe fashion if their fans acted like the Spanish supporters.

"I can't understand the abuse and where it comes from I don't know," said Neville.

"But on the major issues in the game - hooliganism and racism - if it is England, we would probably be kicked out of the competitions.

"England get treated differently when it comes to certain issues in football, there is absolutely no doubt about that."

When have England ever been kicked out of a competition?

English clubs were thrown out of European cometition, but that was after English fans caused a lot of deaths.

Also, what the Spanish fans did was absolutely disgusting, and I am not defending it in any way, BUT, they didn't actually physically harm anyone - something which England fans have definitely done at many World Cup qualifiers and finals - and they have never been thrown out of any comeptition.

Originally posted by Yodameister
When have England ever been kicked out of a competition?

English clubs were thrown out of European cometition, but that was after English fans caused a lot of deaths.

Also, what the Spanish fans did was absolutely disgusting, and I am not defending it in any way, BUT, they didn't actually physically harm anyone - something which England fans have definitely done at many World Cup qualifiers and finals - and they have never been thrown out of any comeptition.


When England fans made racial comments aimed at Turkey players in 2003, they were on the verge of being banned from Euro 2004 because of the behaviour. I wonder if Spain will face a similar threat? (My guess is no).

Originally posted by Yodameister
When have England ever been kicked out of a competition?

I don't think we have ? Have we ?? I know we've been threatened with expulsion from competitions often enough..

Originally posted by t020
When England fans made racial comments aimed at Turkey players in 2003, they were on the verge of being banned from Euro 2004 because of the behaviour. I wonder if Spain will face a similar threat? (My guess is no).

I just don't buy into this whole "England as victim" thing.

Originally posted by Yodameister
I just don't buy into this whole "England as victim" thing.

We'll see though won't we? It all depends on what punishment FIFA inflict upon the Spanish FA.

So what punishment would you say would mean that the whole world doesn't hate us?

I assuming "threatening with expulsion if it continues" as that is what happened to England in similar circumstances.

Originally posted by Yodameister
So what punishment would you say would mean that the whole world doesn't hate us?

I assuming "threatening with expulsion if it continues" as that is what happened to England in similar circumstances.

Yes, Spain should receive a similar punishment to what England received. FIFA should threaten them that if it happens again then they're out of the next world cup.

Originally posted by t020
We'll see though won't we? It all depends on what punishment FIFA inflict upon the Spanish FA.

If any punishment at all....

Originally posted by t020
Yes, Spain should receive a similar punishment to what England received. FIFA should threaten them that if it happens again then they're out of the next world cup.

I agree they should receive that punishment, and I agree it would be scandalous if they don't.

BUT, that doesn't mean I agree that England are "always" treated less fairly, just in this case.

England may be treated unfairly in comparison with other countries cause they're the most high-profile internationa club in the world with the biggest league in the world.

Saying that however, Man Utd are the biggest club in the world and they're never treated unfairly.

I suppose it has to be the manager's decision as to whether or not to take the team off. If he decide that it was unfair for some of his players to continue receiving this kind of treatment then I think most fans would support his decision.

Originally posted by ianmitchell

Saying that however, Man Utd are the biggest club in the world and they're never treated unfairly.


Quite the opposite - all they need to do is fall over in the penalty area and it's given.

Originally posted by carcrash
I think holland have given the refs the power to abandon games if there is racist chanting.

a power which one ref in holland used a couple of weeks back

the thing that shocked me the most was the lack of any real condemnation from the spanish authorities of the whole episode who were forced to comment only in light of the english backlash

it's like it's almost accepted over there as being a part of the 'banter' - if that happened over here they'd be uproar - maybe we are more tolerant on the whole of other cultures and races probably because it's been more of an issue over here over the years - i read that in Spain immigration from african nations for example was only a relatively recent phenomenon

although very far from ideal over here maybe they could learn from us!

No, the England team should not have left the field. OK, it was racist, but come on, 'sticks and stones', etc? There are far more worse things to get uptight about, eh?

The world's gone bonkers.

Interesting to see that the majority of people who voted in the poll opted for them to leave the field, yet the replies are predominantly of the feeling that they did the right thing by staying on. :confused:

It's like I was trying to say, the world just does not make any sense anymore.

I think people are frightened of making statements - as I did in my previous post - that are vaguely 'racist', and dampen their true opinions by saying that 'this' and 'that 'is 'unaccepatable' and 'disgusting' just to look politicallly correct.

But what is wrong with a bit of sexcist, racial, or whatever banter?It works both ways. Yes!

Would the world be the same without the Great British, 'Irish joke'?

It's OK to portray the Irish (publicly) as being stupid, but to hint that coloured people resemble monkeys is absolutely unacceptable.

I am a lighter coloured monkey than my coloured cousins, that's all.

Come on. Stop being stupid, everyone.

I was quite shocked by the spanish fans acting the way they did and I think they should be punished- but then I got to thinking that us england fans aren't exactly angels are we.

Ie: Booing other national teams anthems at home games -- the wales game for example.

Sticks and stones springs to mind..

And also for all the people on Rooney's back--

Stop all the ****!

He was the player who kept Englands hopes alive in Euro 2004.. those who would like him to be out of the england squad should remember that!

Originally posted by Sam Miguel

Would the world be the same without the Great British, 'Irish joke'?

It's OK to portray the Irish (publicly) as being stupid, but to hint that coloured people resemble monkeys is absolutely unacceptable.

I am a lighter coloured monkey than my coloured cousins, that's all.

Come on. Stop being stupid, everyone.

but it isn't okay to do the "thick-mick" jokes, either, sam!

it is not right to poke fun at any race/ colour. whichever race you are, it is out of order.

I heard someone earlier say (not necessarily on here) that it was excusable, because the Spanish, and particularly Madrid, is not as cosmopolitan an area as say, parts of Britain or other parts of Europe.

what a load of cobblers. Spain has the Moorish people, and its Arab heritage... apart from anything else, Madrid is the capital of Spain, FFS! how can a capital of a country not have diversity etc? and it has tourism, too, all through Spain.

maybe the tourists should boycott Spain, and hit Spain in the pocket?

As i said earlier, the weight of FIFA should come down on the Spanish for their behaviour.

PT

BUT I bet after all the performance from spain this week... they still get the olympics..

Can anyone say... backhanders....

But Plain Talker: a great proportion of the 'thick mick' jokes as you call them are administered by the great Irish Stand-ups themselves such as Frank Carson and Dusty Young!

How can you doubt that sort of humour.

It's the same with sexcist jokes. Mind you they are OK when they poke fun at men, but not when it's the other way round.

Not that that bothers me, though. I can laugh at myself and my gender.

I've been reading the papers today, and their calls to have spain banned?!?!?

Are we so quick to forget all the towns that our England fans have trashed, how many foreigners we have beaten up, how many seats we have ripped out of ground... have we been banned yet?

The Spanish fans that were being racist were in the minority, unlike the England 'fans' when singing 'no surrender to the IRA' a song that is as bad as anything the Spanish fans sang. A song I find very offensive, and yet most people don't seem to think twice about singing at England matches.

If there is one team in Europe that deserves to be banned because of its fans, it isn't Spain.

(I think England should have walked off, there is no place for racism anywhere in modern society. It would have set a good example.)

For the record, FIFA President Sepp Blatter says he would've backed the England team had they decided to walk off during the match against Spain. (http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/041121/2/7nnt.html)

Originally posted by Sam Miguel


It's OK to portray the Irish (publicly) as being stupid, but to hint that coloured people resemble monkeys is absolutely unacceptable.

I am a lighter coloured monkey than my coloured cousins, that's all.

Come on. Stop being stupid, everyone.

Do you think that if all the fans had done was to subtly hint that black people resembled monkeys their would be this much outrage? I think you are severely underestimating the nature and motivations of the Spanish fans actions and the severity of the Racism behind the monkey chants.

Very interesting article in today's Mirror about the links between Madrid players and their far right fans.

Also what’s scary is this had happened the night before causing an outrage at the Under 21’s match, it’s not like the Spanish FA were caught unaware by it they should have had measures in place to stop it happening.

I think they should have walked off, if only as an excuse to avoid what was otherwise a pathetic attempt at football.

Hold on a bit..... Did England even turn up?

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
No, the England team should not have left the field. OK, it was racist, but come on, 'sticks and stones', etc? There are far more worse things to get uptight about, eh?

The world's gone bonkers.


Now that there are pictures of Madrid fans with swastika tatoos, doing Nazi salutes, do you still view the monkey chants as harmless banter?

After all, what harms a bit of arm waving?

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
But Plain Talker: a great proportion of the 'thick mick' jokes as you call them are administered by the great Irish Stand-ups themselves such as Frank Carson and Dusty Young!
Have you ever told an Irish joke to an Irish person? I have and most of them do not like it one little bit.