View Full Version : Is it right for a parent to impose their religious beliefs on their child?


nuttygirl
10-05-2007, 20:42
I was wondering what people's opinions were (for or against) concerning the imposing of religious beliefs/practices on their children. Is this acceptable, or should the child be left to make its own mind up?

discodown
10-05-2007, 20:45
Its never right to impose religious beliefs on anyone

mr chris
10-05-2007, 22:46
I was wondering what people's opinions were (for or against) concerning the imposing of religious beliefs/practices on their children. Is this acceptable, or should the child be left to make its own mind up?

How do you define "Imposing"?

I was brought up in a Christian household, and was encouraged to take the beliefs as my own. I was never forced and came to my own decisions about things, which was to become a Christian (as I wasn't one until I made the commitment).

Although how could a child be brought up with no external influence?

redrobbo
10-05-2007, 22:57
This is a very difficult question to try and answer.

Parents have a legal right to bring up their children in a religion of their choice. In many Christian, Jewish and Muslim households, by way of example, families observe various religious practices - in which the children also participate. This gives the family a sense of cohesiveness, and instils moral values in the children - which is to be applauded.

However, I feel that religious belief is something that ought to be an informed choice. I therefore disagree, for example, with infant baptism, and also Jewish circumcision of young boys, on principle.

I suppose that despite my personal views, parents are free to bring up their children as they wish, including religious instruction.

Litha
10-05-2007, 23:38
Im Pagan, but i dont impose my beleifs on my kids or anyone. i talk to my kids about what i beleive they ask questions and thats that. I am not of the beleif of alot of people that what they beleive is the bee all and end all. I truely beleive everyone has the right to beleive in what they like as long as they are happy and no one else is hurt as a result.

i do not prescribe however to the beleifs that cause harm and expect that person to give away there freedom in order to beleive...... no ones God/Goddess would dream of asking someone to sacrifice or hurt in their name if they were the real deal :)

Cyclone
10-05-2007, 23:44
No it isn't.
But I see no practical way it can be avoided.

Even being non religious doesn't help, as if I were silly enough to have children I would probably instil in them a contempt of religion and an appreciation of humanism and scientific method.

John1954
11-05-2007, 08:09
How do you define "Imposing"?

I was brought up in a Christian household, and was encouraged to take the beliefs as my own. I was never forced and came to my own decisions about things, which was to become a Christian (as I wasn't one until I made the commitment).

Although how could a child be brought up with no external influence?
Like the vast majority of religious people, presumably after much study and contemplation of the various religions on offer, you claim to have come to your own decision and, in your case, became a Christian.

Isn't it amazing that, after following the same thought processes, the children of Muslim families become Muslims, the children of Hindu families become Hindus ...

carmencarter
11-05-2007, 08:10
Ok, a lot of people will probably disapprove and I can see where they're coming from..

But imposing atheism is somehow similar to imposing a religion, isn't it?
In a way it's imposing the belief that there is NO God.
Well, as an atheist I WON'T let my child sit in school assemblies where headteachers are inviting the children to pray or mentioning their duties as Christians.

To me it's wrong, and non-negotiable.

To some extent though, I think that refusing to have my child influenced by the teaching staff is a way of letting them decide for themselves.

Children get knowledge from their teachers, they are often role models too, they learn so much from them that it would be too easy for little ones to think " Ok, they're right about maths, science, and lots of other things, surely they're right in their faith too".

When the time comes I would tell my kid that I don't believe in any God, and although I won't put any pressure on him to agree with me, I will probably be a bit taken aback if he becomes religious.

I know it doesn't make me sound very tolerant but I would be a hypocrite if I pretended otherwise.

Agent Orange
11-05-2007, 08:55
Imposing sounds too harsh, almost as if you were deliberately doing something against ones will.

You could argue that, is it ok for parents to impose their moral beliefs on a child etc etc. Parents are there to guide and bring up their child in the way that probably mirrors their own beliefs etc and if the parents are religious then why would it be a crime to bring the children up following the same religion and beliefs etc.

purdyamos
11-05-2007, 13:43
I think the dividing line as far as I'm concerned is whether parents instill in their children not just their moral views but also the belief that questioning things, choosing to choose your own direction, freedom to dissent, opt out etc are all acceptable. Raising children with a bias towards your own moral beliefs is unavoidable and not something I have an issue with per se, but indoctrinating children with the notion that This is THE Truth, anyone who disagrees is either bad or to be pitied, second class, etc. Also I take issue with any religious teaching or influence that threatens punishment or rejection for not blindly obeying and toeing the line.

Grahame
11-05-2007, 18:27
I was wondering what people's opinions were (for or against) concerning the imposing of religious beliefs/practices on their children. Is this acceptable, or should the child be left to make its own mind up?

Of course people should be left to make their own mind up. In my experience the harder you try to push someone the more they rebel.

discodown
11-05-2007, 18:45
Of course people should be left to make their own mind up. In my experience the harder you try to push someone the more they rebel.Very wise and of course quite correct. we've not even had our child christened. If he feels he wants to do it when hes older it'll be his decision and he'll enjoy it and remember it

Grahame
11-05-2007, 18:50
Very wise and of course quite correct. we've not even had our child christened. If he feels he wants to do it when hes older it'll be his decision and he'll enjoy it and remember it

Hooray, someone agrees with me for once. :clap:

Grahame
11-05-2007, 18:55
Like the vast majority of religious people, presumably after much study and contemplation of the various religions on offer, you claim to have come to your own decision and, in your case, became a Christian.

Isn't it amazing that, after following the same thought processes, the children of Muslim families become Muslims, the children of Hindu families become Hindus ...

That is not true.

Even purdyamos agrees that children may want to change their religion but can’t if they are Muslim.
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2223478&postcount=51

As for children being able to choose what they think - one of the basic tenets of Islam is absolute obedience. There is frequently no option for choice whatsoever. No-one has the right to question the dogma, and apostacy (ie freedom of choice) is the worst crime, often punished by execution. At the very least, it is very common for children to be threatened with punishment for not toeing the line and wanting to exercise autonomy.

discodown
11-05-2007, 18:57
Hooray, someone agrees with me for once. :clap:Enjoy it, it may never happen again!

Grahame
11-05-2007, 19:02
Enjoy it, it may never happen again!

I was thinking the same myself. :thumbsup:

Swan_Vesta
11-05-2007, 19:03
I'm tempted to say that as long as the true sentiment behind religion is the driving force rather than blinding them with parables and scripture then I'm happy with it.

My parents raised me with agnostic/atheist beliefs but with an underlying value of decency and humanistic tendencies, however, I find myself investigating Christianity and thinking more about it ....... maybe it's best that the child finds out for itself but builds upon the foundation that the parent has laid.

Grahame
11-05-2007, 19:19
I'm tempted to say that as long as the true sentiment behind religion is the driving force rather than blinding them with parables and scripture then I'm happy with it.

My parents raised me with agnostic/atheist beliefs but with an underlying value of decency and humanistic tendencies, however, I find myself investigating Christianity and thinking more about it ....... maybe it's best that the child finds out for itself but builds upon the foundation that the parent has laid.

I do so agree with you there Swan Vesta. For me ‘truth’ is about values. The original meaning of truth and this will be close to the Scriptural rendering means fidelity and constancy. In other words truth is the embodiment of all that is good and it grieves me when people say Islam is the ‘true’ religion. It is not and its evil practises show it not to be 'true' in any way shape or form. All I can say is that it might be an idea to try and seek the truth yourself and build on the values your parents gave you. :)

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=truth

G.

whitewitch
11-05-2007, 20:59
my mum is a jew and dad a church of england (both not practicing) my 2 brothers, sister and myself were not christened as a child as my parents believed that we should choose our own religion. My sister is the only one who chose a religion (so she could marry in a church), im an athiest. My daughter takes r.e at school and we talk about god (even though i dont believe) i wont christen her as i want her to choose what she wants to do. Whatever she chooses i will respect that.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 00:58
Grahame, surely decrying another religion is tantamount to praising your own?

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 01:24
I was wondering what people's opinions were (for or against) concerning the imposing of religious beliefs/practices on their children. Is this acceptable, or should the child be left to make its own mind up?
Of course it isn't acceptable, if a parent made their kid read John Stewart Mill all the time and forced them go to liberal indoctrination events every Sunday people would be appalled, and rightly so.

The only reason most people aren't similarly appalled when the ideology people attempt to indoctrinate their children into is mystical is because that particular form of indoctrination has been so pervasive in our society for so long that people consider it normal.

Hopefully in time people will come to consider indoctrinating children into theistic ideologies with the same revulsion we hold for other historical cultural practices we can now see the error of.

Heeley tyke
12-05-2007, 02:03
Im Pagan, but i dont impose my beleifs on my kids or anyone. i talk to my kids about what i beleive they ask questions and thats that. I am not of the beleif of alot of people that what they beleive is the bee all and end all. I truely beleive everyone has the right to beleive in what they like as long as they are happy and no one else is hurt as a result.

i do not prescribe however to the beleifs that cause harm and expect that person to give away there freedom in order to beleive...... no ones God/Goddess would dream of asking someone to sacrifice or hurt in their name if they were the real deal :)

I have found that pagans are the most tolerant of other religions yet they usually get a lot of unnecessary criticism from Christian worshippers.
I have found that the more devout the Christian is, the more he or she is inclined to denigrate others.
Strange, isn't it?

Grahame
12-05-2007, 07:08
I have found that pagans are the most tolerant of other religions yet they usually get a lot of unnecessary criticism from Christian worshippers.
I have found that the more devout the Christian is, the more he or she is inclined to denigrate others.
Strange, isn't it?

It could due to a love and a concern for our fellows?

It could be due to the lack of direction many people seem to have in their lives?

It could be due to falling standards of morality?

It could be due to a desire to see the old community spirit again where in the main there was general agreement about most things, including Christianity with people either believing or not as they felt fit. However since the introduction of new religions and cults in recent times there seems to have been a breaking up of society in general, a sort of divide and conquer approach. Where once there was general agreement, now there are a multitude of ideologies, sometimes setting neighbour against neighbour and causing dissent where previously none existed, as seen on the Islam thread for example and we seem to be becoming a more divided nation?

G.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 08:34
Grahame, surely decrying another religion is tantamount to praising your own?

"The equal toleration of all religions ... is the same thing as atheism."

[Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei, 1885]

nexus_
12-05-2007, 08:54
I have found that pagans are the most tolerant of other religions yet they usually get a lot of unnecessary criticism from Christian worshippers.
I have found that the more devout the Christian is, the more he or she is inclined to denigrate others.
Strange, isn't it?

I reckon Athiests are probably quite tolerant all things considered. They let people have their beliefs even though they have Science to prove it is clearly all nonsense :hihi:

And if you are going to say Christians are not tolerant then I'm afraid you have to say the same about the other major religions, any state that is dominated by a religion does not tolerate other religions very well. Just look at the Jewish states when the Romans ran them, look at Christian states during the Middle Ages, and look at Muslim states around the world today....

The stupid thing about religion is that they all claim to be Tolerant and accept others etc, but as soon as you get any one who you'd class as devout then they seem more Extreme and DONT accept other religions. Therefore breaking a fundamental tenant of their religion.

The only 'religion' that seems to accept others at all levels would seem to Buddhism.

LibertyBell
12-05-2007, 08:57
No it isn't.
But I see no practical way it can be avoided.


Agree. All religion is bunkum but it's inevitable that people will want their children to share their faith...atheists do the same from the other side of the fence.

evildrneil
12-05-2007, 09:02
I was wondering what people's opinions were (for or against) concerning the imposing of religious beliefs/practices on their children. Is this acceptable, or should the child be left to make its own mind up?

Not sure that imposing is the right word! The parents in question believe in the religion, and so believe that being in that religion is a good and beneficial thing. That being the case they are just doing what they believe to be best for their children in bringing them up in the religion.

hennypenny
12-05-2007, 09:03
I think that parents have a right to bring up their children in a religion if that is what they think is the best for their child. I don't have to like it though. I am an atheist, and although I do try to allow my children to have their own beliefs, they both seem to have decided that the idea of a god of any sort is just silly. My son did go through quite a few years of saying that he thought there was a god, and that was ok with me, it was his choice.

I have always introduced them both to all kinds of different belief systems, and taught them to respect the beliefs of other people. We have studied loads of different creation myths together, and they have enjoyed finding out about what other peoples explanations are.

My daughter quite often says that she can't understand why no one believes in fairies? She says that the stories about fairies have roots just as old as the bible, and both stories are about unseen beings, so how come some people believe in one set of stories, but not the other? Which I think is quite perceptive for an 11 year old :)

Grahame
12-05-2007, 09:08
I reckon Athiests are probably quite tolerant all things considered. They let people have their beliefs even though they have Science to prove it is clearly all nonsense :hihi:

You wouldn't be talking about plekenhov, Mr. Goose, and Crayfish by any chance would you? Because tolerant is what they are not.

Becky B
12-05-2007, 09:26
This is how religion perpetuates - by indoctrinating the developing mind.
A parent can only bring up a child based on what they know and believe, instilling morals and behaviour, and if that is from a religious background it is usually because that's how they were brought up themselves.

Hennypenny - your daughter does sound very perceptive, and open minded!

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 10:42
"The equal toleration of all religions ... is the same thing as atheism."

[Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei, 1885]

No, atheism is a believe that there is no god. Tolerance is something that your religion preaches, but followers find very difficult to practice.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 10:45
Not sure that imposing is the right word! The parents in question believe in the religion, and so believe that being in that religion is a good and beneficial thing. That being the case they are just doing what they believe to be best for their children in bringing them up in the religion.

A child would not be naturally religious though, so the idea is imposed on them. Having said that, you could say the same about anything they were taught, so there is no real point to saying it.

What's more worrying is the fact that they are told (lied to?) about what will happen to them if they do not believe as they are instructed.
So they are threatened with quite horrible and unending punishment if they exercise their mind and question what they are being told.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 11:15
No, atheism is a believe that there is no god. Tolerance is something that your religion preaches, but followers find very difficult to practice.

True Cyclone. Jesus said things like “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Mt 5:44) He did not tell us to kill our enemies as in another religion.

It is hard to be a Christian and all I would ask is that people try not to look at our human frailties but to look to the source of our inspiration. Maybe one day we will get an 8th Dan but I doubt it. :)

At least we don't have to strive by our own efforts or we would never get there, rather it is through the love, forgiveness, and sacrifice of Jesus Christ which is what Christianity is about i.e. security, love, and peace on this earth, as for the next life, who can say, but at least let us have peace on earth here and now. My message to children would be the same message of love, hope, peace, and forgiveness that Jesus gave to us.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 11:42
bout time the world woke up and belived in areselves cos god is like lock ness or the abonable snowman its all a book wot been wrote wot else thay have to do why back then but telll storys come on if there was a thing called god or gods think he would of made himself nown buy now

Even if that were true mossy there is no harm in following the Christian message. Jesus did not teach violence, he taught love and forgiveness and this is a message we all need to take on board I feel. What you are suggesting is not what Jesus taught. :)

Heeley tyke
12-05-2007, 12:53
I would agree with the writer who praised Buddhism for its tolerance.
I had a couple of friends who embraced that religion and they were two of the nicest people you could wish to know.

John1954
12-05-2007, 13:50
That is not true.

Even purdyamos agrees that children may want to change their religion but can’t if they are Muslim.
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2223478&postcount=51
The point I am making is that the vast majority of religious people follow the same religion as their parents. Even within Christianity Catholics give birth to Catholics, Methodists to Methodists, Mormons to Mormons and so on.

I believe this shows that parental influence is a greater factor than evidence of supernatural beings when choosing a religion. This will account for the ignorance of the bible shown by many Christians who have not thought through their beliefs but merely continue to pass their unsupported dogma down the generations.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 14:25
Even if that were true mossy there is no harm in following the Christian message. Jesus did not teach violence, he taught love and forgiveness and this is a message we all need to take on board I feel. What you are suggesting is not what Jesus taught. :)

It's quite possible to live an ethical and moral life without all the religious clap trap that comes with your christian message.
So there's no harm in not following a particular religions message and just being a good person by your own judgement.

EdnaKrabappe
12-05-2007, 16:48
Not sure that imposing is the right word! The parents in question believe in the religion, and so believe that being in that religion is a good and beneficial thing. That being the case they are just doing what they believe to be best for their children in bringing them up in the religion.


What EDN said.

Transfer the thinking to another 'standards' example. Some people eat on a tray every night in front of the telly, others eat every night at a table. When they have children they'll probably expect them to do the same thing. The children might accept it or cry that they want to watch telly. Ultimately it's the parent's house so it's their decision. When the children leave home they might continue the practice or they might adopt the practices of their mates.

Religion is the same thing and unless people are doing human sacrifices, strange sexual practices or teaching their kids to be suicide bombers I think that's fine and a parental right. I should imagine whatever you believe, you teach your children your morals and try to mould them into what you consider to be a good person, whatever that may be.

Putting on my teacher hat for a mo I just tell the children that this is what some people believe in and we should respect that whatever religion I am teaching about (I'm an atheist.)

donkey
12-05-2007, 17:12
That is not true.

Even purdyamos agrees that children may want to change their religion but can’t if they are Muslim.
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2223478&postcount=51



How many Muslims actually want to convert to another religion? Not many, so the point - that people follow the religion of their parents, not through choice, but because they are indoctirnatred at an age before they have the mental capability or knowledge to question what they are told by trusted guardians - still stands.

Go on, suprise me by answering the point which is being made, rather than latching on to the bit about Muslims again, or some other way of avoiding the issue.

funkymiss
12-05-2007, 17:17
Very wise and of course quite correct. we've not even had our child christened. If he feels he wants to do it when hes older it'll be his decision and he'll enjoy it and remember it

Good choice I think! My parents decided the same for me and didn't have me christened. I'm really glad they didn't as I'm happy they let me decide for myself. I never did get myself christened and never will! I think it's wrong to impose a religion on a child through christening, and wrong that many schools involve prayer as part of the day

Grahame
12-05-2007, 17:33
How many Muslims actually want to convert to another religion? Not many, so the point - that people follow the religion of their parents, not through choice, but because they are indoctirnatred at an age before they have the mental capability or knowledge to question what they are told by trusted guardians - still stands.

Go on, suprise me by answering the point which is being made, rather than latching on to the bit about Muslims again, or some other way of avoiding the issue.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GFRC_enGB217GB217&pwst=1&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=muslims+converted+to+christianity&spell=1

Grahame
12-05-2007, 17:38
The point I am making is that the vast majority of religious people follow the same religion as their parents. Even within Christianity Catholics give birth to Catholics, Methodists to Methodists, Mormons to Mormons and so on.

I believe this shows that parental influence is a greater factor than evidence of supernatural beings when choosing a religion. This will account for the ignorance of the bible shown by many Christians who have not thought through their beliefs but merely continue to pass their unsupported dogma down the generations.

John, when I was in a different job, I met lots of women who married Muslim men and converted to their husband's faith

Not only that and just as an example my cousin married a Catholic girl and converted to Catholicism. It happens all the time, this is only one example.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 17:53
John, when I was in a different job, I met lots of women who married Muslim men and they converted to their husband's faith

Not only that and just as an example my cousin married a Catholic girl and converted to Catholicism. It happens all the time and this is only one example.
He said 'vast majority' not ‘all’, so I really don’t see what you think you’re proving by pointing out that you’ve got personal experience of people becoming subject to a faith through means other than parental indoctrination.

There are of course other ways to catch it but a clear majority of religious people around the world are of the same religion of their parents.

artisan
12-05-2007, 17:58
John, when I was in a different job, I met lots of women who married Muslim men and they converted to their husband's faith

Not only that and just as an example my cousin married a Catholic girl and converted to Catholicism. It happens all the time and this is only one example.

You cannot compare changing from CoE to RC, with changing to being a muslim.
The former is a change of some basic principles, but keeping a hold on the basic tenet.

To change to Islam is a betrayal of all your history and your very soul.

It is not accepable in any way.
There is no more sad sight than a white woman walking around dressed as a muslim woman.
They betray our every nature.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 17:58
He said 'vast majority' not ‘all’, so I really don’t see what you think you’re proving by pointing out that you’ve got personal experience of people becoming subject to a faith through means other than parental indoctrination.

There are of course other ways to catch it but a clear majority of religious people around the world are of the same religion of their parents.

Like you I suppose. Because you are not of the same faith as your parents, and you know that.

donkey
12-05-2007, 17:59
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GFRC_enGB217GB217&pwst=1&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=muslims+converted+to+christianity&spell=1

You know that is not the point being made. The fact that you have deliberately used that same trick twice to avoid it, can only lead me to conclude that you know children from religious families are indoctrinated, and can not justify it.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 18:01
You cannot compare changing from CoE to RC, with changing to being a muslim.
The former is a change of some basic principles, but keeping a hold on the basic tenet.

To change to Islam is a betrayal of all your history and your very soul.

It is not accepable in any way.
There is no more sad sight than a white woman walking around dressed as a muslim woman.
They betray our every nature.

Just look at the thousands of Muslims who convert to Christianity in post 41. Please do not ignore the information I post.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 18:02
You know that is not the point being made. The fact that you have deliberately used that same trick twice to avoid it, can only lead me to conclude that you know children from religious families are indoctrinated, and can not justify it.

If you are telling me that people do not have a mind of their own, then you are talking poppycock.

donkey
12-05-2007, 18:10
If you are telling me that people do not have a mind of their own, then you are talking poppycock.

Again, you use your tedious tactic of avoiding the issue by deliberately misinterpreting what was said. There's really no point discussing anything with you.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 18:17
Again, you use your tedious tactic of avoiding the issue by deliberately misinterpreting what was said. There's really no point discussing anything with you.

What is your point donkey?

Even if it is true that people adopt their parents religion, which it is not, although some admitedly do, while many others don't, what is the point you are making please?

I don't think plekenhov was indoctrinated, he did a complete "U" turn despite his parents best efforts, and I know from my own experience, if my parents told me not to do something, then I went straight ahead and did it. I just don't see what difference it makes if people follow their parents religion or change their mind and follow another religion, or none at all, as often seems to happen. Nine times out of ten parents are not bothered either way and there is plenty of evidence for that on the forum.

ants6179
12-05-2007, 18:23
to impose any beliefs on a child is not on........... they have there own minds and have a right to be who they want when they have grown up and know witch way they want to take in life

Grahame
12-05-2007, 18:25
to impose any beliefs on a child is not on........... they have there own minds and have a right to be who they want when they have grown up and know witch way they want to take in life

Agreed. No one is saying any different.

Also agreed is that people have their own minds and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 19:00
Like you I suppose. Because you are not of the same faith as your parents, and you know that.
So? Nobody has said that all religious parents throughout the world without fail all succeed in indoctrinating all of their offspring.

As such pointing to examples of failed indoctrination in no way rebuts the argument that a clear majority of theists not all but most theists around the world were indoctrinated into their particular brand of theism by their parents and community.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 20:13
Also agreed is that people have their own minds and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions.

You must have met some pretty remarkable children.
Generally they don't really have their own mind and for a good many years are completely incapable of nor allowed to make any decisions.
If they are brought up being told something and it is presented as fact, and backed up by threats of punishment (in some nebulous afterlife) then they are highly unlikely to completely reject what they are told.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 20:14
You cannot compare changing from CoE to RC, with changing to being a muslim.
The former is a change of some basic principles, but keeping a hold on the basic tenet.

To change to Islam is a betrayal of all your history and your very soul.

It is not accepable in any way.
There is no more sad sight than a white woman walking around dressed as a muslim woman.
They betray our every nature.

I think your post is offensive and verging on the dreaded phrase of inciting religious hatred.
There is no more sad sight than a white man banging on about something he has no knowledge or experience of.

Elan Tedrona
12-05-2007, 20:15
You cannot compare changing from CoE to RC, with changing to being a muslim.
The former is a change of some basic principles, but keeping a hold on the basic tenet.

To change to Islam is a betrayal of all your history and your very soul.

It is not accepable in any way.
There is no more sad sight than a white woman walking around dressed as a muslim woman.
They betray our every nature.

what do you feel about muslim women who don't follow islam anymore? Do you consider them betraying their very nature too?

Grahame
12-05-2007, 20:59
You must have met some pretty remarkable children.
Generally they don't really have their own mind and for a good many years are completely incapable of nor allowed to make any decisions.
If they are brought up being told something and it is presented as fact, and backed up by threats of punishment (in some nebulous afterlife) then they are highly unlikely to completely reject what they are told.

I said people Cyclone, not children. Like when they reach adulthood and are able to make their own minds up as you and plekenhov are able to do and every other person on the planet.

See my post here
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2231620&postcount=62

artisan
12-05-2007, 20:59
I think your post is offensive and verging on the dreaded phrase of inciting religious hatred.
There is no more sad sight than a white man banging on about something he has no knowledge or experience of.

Which white man is this then? Are you refering to me, if you are, please do not call me a whiteman.
That is rascist and unacceptable to me.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:00
You cannot compare changing from CoE to RC, with changing to being a muslim.
The former is a change of some basic principles, but keeping a hold on the basic tenet

To change to Islam is a betrayal of all your history and your very soul.

It is not accepable in any way.
There is no more sad sight than a white woman walking around dressed as a muslim woman.
They betray our every nature.
Whilst I certainly consider it regrettable for anybody to become a theist, a white british women becoming a muslim no more goes against her nature then an Arabic woman from a predominantly Muslim country does by becoming a buddist.

There's nothing the least bit natural about religions, they’re cultural constructs and all exactly as ‘natural’ (ie not a all) as each other.

artisan
12-05-2007, 21:01
what do you feel about muslim women who don't follow islam anymore? Do you consider them betraying their very nature too?

No, they have just seen sense.

As muslim men ought to as well.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:04
Agreed. No one is saying any different.

Also agreed is that people have their own minds and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions.
Then how do you explain the fact that most Buddists just happened to ‘decide’ to follow the same religion of their parents as do most Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Animists…

Phanerothyme
12-05-2007, 21:07
I used to be moderate on the subject.

No longer - religion is a disease of the mind, and together we can stamp it out in the space of a generation.

Heeley tyke
12-05-2007, 21:08
I, like the majority of children was sent to Sunday School. I enjoyed going there and accepted it as natural that I should be a Christian.
It became more of a habit but when I was turned thirteen, it was just a useful place for meeting a few girls. (I went to an all boys school)

It was when I was around fourteen that I was attending confirmation classes. I suddenly realized that I wasn't prepared to accept the tenets of the Christian faith and I dropped out.
When my children were young, my wife sent them to Sunday School. I let them get on with it until they decided for themselves whether or not to continue.
Two out of the three dropped out before they were fifteen and the other child carried on attending church.
This was a decision of their own making and I never interfered in any way to either encourage or dissuade.

melthebell
12-05-2007, 21:11
im very anti religious and not very happy about the school giving em RE but i suppose i had all that **** too

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:17
im very anti religious and not very happy about the school giving em RE but i suppose i had all that **** too
Religious Education, atleast that given in most British schools is not the same as religious indoctrination.

melthebell
12-05-2007, 21:20
Religious Education, atleast that given in most British schools is not the same as religious indoctrination.

in my eyes it IS indoctrination
they dont really have any choice whether to take it or not, i hated it
it only gives you one sense of religion

Grahame
12-05-2007, 21:25
Then how do you explain the fact that most Buddists just happened to ‘decide’ to follow the same religion of their parents as do most Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Animists…

I think you need to get your facts right plekanhov

http://www.cathnews.com/news/511/142.php

http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/10/8918.html

http://sathfilms.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/evangelicals-hope-to-convert-dalai-lama-buddhists-%C2%AB-blaze-talks/

G.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 21:28
I, like the majority of children was sent to Sunday School. I enjoyed going there and accepted it as natural that I should be a Christian.
It became more of a habit but when I was turned thirteen, it was just a useful place for meeting a few girls. (I went to an all boys school)

It was when I was around fourteen that I was attending confirmation classes. I suddenly realized that I wasn't prepared to accept the tenets of the Christian faith and I dropped out.
When my children were young, my wife sent them to Sunday School. I let them get on with it until they decided for themselves whether or not to continue.
Two out of the three dropped out before they were fifteen and the other child carried on attending church.
This was a decision of their own making and I never interfered in any way to either encourage or dissuade.
Thank you Heely tyke for that personal testimony and for providing further examples of people making their own minds up.

G.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:29
in my eyes it IS indoctrination
they dont really have any choice whether to take it or not, i hated it
it only gives you one sense of religion
It would seem you had a different experience but the RE I received in school primarily consisted of learning a few basic facts about world religions and what they do for their festivals, one of my teachers was obviously a Christian and certainly tried to push that but was restricted in her ability to do so by the syllabus she was required to teach.

We had legally required religious assemblies which I most certainly object to but RE in itself if done right is not a problem.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:30
I think you need to get your facts right plekanhov

http://www.cathnews.com/news/511/142.php

http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/10/8918.html

http://sathfilms.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/evangelicals-hope-to-convert-dalai-lama-buddhists-%C2%AB-blaze-talks/

G.
Let me get this straight are you seriously denying that most Hindus have Hindu parents, most Muslims Muslim parents and so forth?

discodown
12-05-2007, 21:32
in my eyes it IS indoctrination
they dont really have any choice whether to take it or not, i hated it
it only gives you one sense of religionIf it is education then I don't see the issue. Better to give them the facts and let them make a decision based on that then forcing them one way or another

melthebell
12-05-2007, 21:34
If it is education then I don't see the issue. Better to give them the facts and let them make a decision based on that then forcing them one way or another

education IS forcing one view on children

RE IS forcing one point of view on em


i always did about christian stuff....always jesus, always moses...never muslim, hindu whatever stuff

Grahame
12-05-2007, 21:34
Let me get this straight are you seriously denying that most Hindus have Hindu parents, most Muslims Muslim parents and so forth?

I am saying and have been for I don't know how long, that when children reach an age where they can think for themselves they adopt the religion of their choice, or no religion at all as the case may be.

discodown
12-05-2007, 21:35
education IS forcing one view on children

RE IS forcing one point of view on emMy experience of RE was the same as Plek's. I never felt as though I was being forced to choose

melthebell
12-05-2007, 21:37
My experience of RE was the same as Plek's. I never felt as though I was being forced to choose

thats it, you never got to choose, you were told about a christian way of life, that was it, my eldest mentions jesus etc now, so it aint changed

Phanerothyme
12-05-2007, 21:38
I think you need to get your facts right plekanhov

http://www.cathnews.com/news/511/142.php

Dalai Lama urges Christians not to convert to Buddhism-
The Dalai Lama has said that Western Christians and Muslims should embrace the teachings of compassion and peace that can be found in their own religious traditions, rather than convert to Buddhism.
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/10/8918.html
Thousands of people have been attending mass ceremonies in India at which hundreds of low-caste Hindus (Dalits) converted to Buddhism and Christianity.

The events in the central city of Nagpur are part of a protest against the injustices of India`s caste system.
http://sathfilms.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/evangelicals-hope-to-convert-dalai-lama-buddhists-%C2%AB-blaze-talks/

G.Evangelicals hope to convert Dalai Lama & Buddhists


How do those links demonstrate that Plekhanov needs to "get his facts right"? None of them seem to even remotely relateto how many buddhists have buddhist parents. I would imagine in buddhist countries (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Bhutan, Japan etc.) It's quite a high percentage and that he's absolutely correct.

discodown
12-05-2007, 21:39
No i wasn't, I was told about most of the major religions

Grahame
12-05-2007, 21:42
Dalai Lama urges Christians not to convert to Buddhism-
The Dalai Lama has said that Western Christians and Muslims should embrace the teachings of compassion and peace that can be found in their own religious traditions, rather than convert to Buddhism.
Thousands of people have been attending mass ceremonies in India at which hundreds of low-caste Hindus (Dalits) converted to Buddhism and Christianity.

The events in the central city of Nagpur are part of a protest against the injustices of India`s caste system.
Evangelicals hope to convert Dalai Lama & Buddhists


How do those links demonstrate that Plekhanov needs to "get his facts right"? None of them seem to even remotely relateto how many buddhists have buddhist parents. I would imagine in buddhist countries (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Bhutan, Japan etc.) It's quite a high percentage and that he's absolutely correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_converts_to_Christianity

G.

plekhanov
12-05-2007, 21:46
I am saying and have been for I don't know how long, that when children reach an age where they can think for themselves they adopt the religion of their choice, or no religion at all as the case may be.
Then how to you explain the fact that most Muslims ‘choose’ the religion of their parents, as do most Christians, Hindus… and so forth?

If people were making genuinely free choices and not ones heavily constrained and restricted by lifelong indoctrination you’d expect parents religion of ‘choice’ to have very little correlation with their offsprings religion of ‘choice’. However this is most certainly not the case, how do you explain this?

Grahame
12-05-2007, 21:52
Then how to you explain the fact that most Muslims ‘choose’ the religion of their parents, as do most Christians, Hindus… and so forth?

If people were making genuinely free choices and not ones heavily constrained and restricted by lifelong indoctrination you’d expect parents religion of ‘choice’ to have very little correlation with their offsprings religion of ‘choice’. However this is most certainly not the case, how do you explain this?

Get yourself up to speed plekenhov. People are genuinely making free choices, I don't have any explaining to do, you need to get your facts right.

Heeley tyke
12-05-2007, 22:16
Grahame said:
Religion is like holding on to a rock in the middle of a raging river; faith is learning how to swim.

Reality is getting a boat!

John1954
12-05-2007, 23:35
I think you need to get your facts right plekanhov

http://www.cathnews.com/news/511/142.php

http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/10/8918.html

http://sathfilms.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/evangelicals-hope-to-convert-dalai-lama-buddhists-%C2%AB-blaze-talks/

G.
The first link refers to the Dalai Lama requesting people not to convert - so what?

The second link claims 2,500 Hindus have converted to Buddhism or Christianity. Out of a population of over one billion this suggests that at least 99.99975% have followed their parents into Hinduism. I don't think this negates the argument that children take up the religion of their parents.

The third link says nothing.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 23:43
Which white man is this then? Are you refering to me, if you are, please do not call me a whiteman.
That is rascist and unacceptable to me.

You apparently don't even know what racism is. It isn't using colour or race as a description (particularly if accurate), it is prejudice based on the colour or race. I simply described you as a white man, a description I believe is accurate.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 23:45
I said people Cyclone, not children. Like when they reach adulthood and are able to make their own minds up as you and plekenhov are able to do and every other person on the planet.

See my post here
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2231620&postcount=62

Children are people Grahame, and at a young age they are not capable of making up their minds, or of examining something rationally. So, to reiterate, not all people are as capable as you said. Children are easily mislead by parents or other adults. By the time they are capable of rationally considering the whole religion question, it's too late, it's very difficult to overcome a believe that is deep seated in your psyche, ie one put there before you could even really form a proper thought as a child.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 23:47
in my eyes it IS indoctrination
they dont really have any choice whether to take it or not, i hated it
it only gives you one sense of religion

It teaches about most of the major world religions. It isn't teaching belief, it's teaching about religion.

Cyclone
12-05-2007, 23:49
Get yourself up to speed plekenhov. People are genuinely making free choices, I don't have any explaining to do, you need to get your facts right.

You are arguing in the face of all the evidence and rationality that people do not in general follow the religion of their parents.
Your capability for self delusion is truly surpassing.

Grahame
12-05-2007, 23:54
You are arguing in the face of all the evidence and rationality that people do not in general follow the religion of their parents.
Your capability for self delusion is truly surpassing.

If you are telling me people can't think for themselves, then you are deluding yourself.

John1954
13-05-2007, 00:09
If you are telling me people can't think for themselves, then you are deluding yourself.
Grahame, give straight answer. What percentage of people would you estimate follow the same religion as their parents?

Grahame
13-05-2007, 00:22
The first link refers to the Dalai Lama requesting people not to convert - so what?

The second link claims 2,500 Hindus have converted to Buddhism or Christianity. Out of a population of over one billion this suggests that at least 99.99975% have followed their parents into Hinduism. I don't think this negates the argument that children take up the religion of their parents.

The third link says nothing.

John, I must have posted at least a dozen links where people have broken away from their mothers apron strings and gone their own way. What can your opinion be of people in general? Are you saying people have no brains and no minds of their own? You know that is not true. How often have children gone against their parents wishes in every field of life, marriage, career etc. I just wonder how many people actually do as their parents say?

Next you will be saying that education is indoctrination, and children are being indoctrinated from 9am to 3.30pm five days a week. Television is certainly the greatest tool for mind bending, so get real and vent your spleen on the politicians and the spin doctors and the purveyors of filth in the media. These are the places you should be looking if you want to heal the ills of our country. Television has a generally captive audience from the age of a few months for several hour every day, with footage of killings, sex, and violence. This is where you will find the real indoctrination.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 00:26
Grahame, give straight answer. What percentage of people would you estimate follow the same religion as their parents?

The straight answer is that I don't have a figure. Remember many people of no faith will say CofE like their parents which gives skewed results.

From the people who have posted on the forum, I would estimate that only a small percentage follow the same religion as their parents.

John1954
13-05-2007, 00:35
The straight answer is that I don't have a figure and remember many people of no faith will say CofE like their parents when asked which gives skewed results. From the people who have posted on the forum, and you can read their posts for yourself of people who were taken to church, I would say not very many.
Let me get this straight. You're saying "not very many" Christians have Christian parents; "not very many" Muslims have Muslim parents; "not very many" Hindus have Hindu parents.

Why do you always paint yourself into such a corner?

John1954
13-05-2007, 00:44
John, I must have posted at least a dozen links where people have broken away from their mothers apron strings and gone their own way. What can your opinion be of people in general? Are you saying people have no brains and no minds of their own? You know that is not true. How often have children gone against their parents wishes in every field of life, marriage, career etc. I just wonder how many people actually do as their parents say?

Next you will be saying that education is indoctrination, and children are being indoctrinated from 9am to 3.30pm five days a week. Television is certainly the greatest tool for mind bending, so get real and vent your spleen on the politicians and the spin doctors and the purveyors of filth in the media. These are the places you should be looking if you want to heal the ills of our country. Television has a generally captive audience from the age of a few months for several hour every day, with footage of killings, sex, and violence. This is where you will find the real indoctrination.
This post is a ridiculous misrepresentation of my views and well you know it!

Grahame
13-05-2007, 00:46
Let me get this straight. You're saying "not very many" Christians have Christian parents; "not very many" Muslims have Muslim parents; "not very many" Hindus have Hindu parents.

Why do you always paint yourself into such a corner?

You are not getting it straight at all.

I am saying and I don't know how to say it any clearer, is that when children reach an age of understanding and reason, the situation changes and people make their own choices the same as these people did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_converts_to_Christianity

The fact they made these changes proves that what you are saying about indoctrination is totally floored.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 09:35
If you are telling me people can't think for themselves, then you are deluding yourself.

Straw manning.
What I said was that the majority of people follow the same religion as their parents. I said it quite clear and quite plain, yet you choose to reply to something I didn't say instead.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 09:50
Straw manning.
What I said was that the majority of people follow the same religion as their parents. I said it quite clear and quite plain, yet you choose to reply to something I didn't say instead.

And your point is?

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 09:57
And your point is?

That you refuse to answer the point raised and instead answer one you invent yourself.
It's disingenuous and a technique used by someone who knows that they have no answer to the real point.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 10:08
That you refuse to answer the point raised and instead answer one you invent yourself.
It's disingenuous and a technique used by someone who knows that they have no answer to the real point.

You fail to tell me the point you are making, therefore I presume you have no point to make.

I will try to help you then. Are you saying that if someone follows the same football team as their father that they are indoctrinated because they like doing things together? Or because they happen to live near the ground and go to the same football matches together, that they are indoctrinated? The truth is that you draw the wrong conclusion.

Not only that but many families are divided over the team they support, proving once and for all that parental indoctrination is a myth.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 10:42
Grahame said:
Religion is like holding on to a rock in the middle of a raging river; faith is learning how to swim.

Reality is getting a boat!

Why do you think they were holding onto the rock? Because the reality is that boats sink. However faith can move mountains. (Matthew chapter 21 verse 21)

"It was among the Jews a usual commendation of their learned Rabbin (learned men), that they were removers of mountains, that is, could solve the greatest difficulties." (Matthew Henry)

G.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 11:05
You fail to tell me the point you are making, therefore I presume you have no point to make.

Once again I made it quite clearly.
The point is that you refuse to engage in the argument on the points raised and instead refute false ones that you raise yourself. Thus leading me to conclude that you are fully aware that you have lost and are simply wasting everyones time.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 11:08
Once again I made it quite clearly.
The point is that you refuse to engage in the argument on the points raised and instead refute false ones that you raise yourself. Thus leading me to conclude that you are fully aware that you have lost and are simply wasting everyones time.

For the third time of asking please tell me the point you are making so I can help you. Remember the thread is whether parents have the right to indoctrinate their children, to which I replied early on in post 11 that parents do not have that right.

Also it is well known that children do not always obey their parents which presents problems if the parents want to indoctrinate them. Even young children have a will and a mind of their own.

jezzyjj
13-05-2007, 11:58
I would agree with the writer who praised Buddhism for its tolerance.
I had a couple of friends who embraced that religion and they were two of the nicest people you could wish to know.
The first buddist I ever came across was a completely selfish bitch.
All the others I know however, are indeed very nice people.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 12:34
For the third time of asking please tell me the point you are making so I can help you. Remember the thread is whether parents have the right to indoctrinate their children, to which I replied early on in post 11 that parents do not have that right.

Also it is well known that children do not always obey their parents which presents problems if the parents want to indoctrinate them. Even young children have a will and a mind of their own.

Grahame, I don't know what game you think you're playing, but I keep saying "the point is this", and then explaining it, and you keep replying, "I don't know what your point is".
You're just making out that your incapable of actually reading or understanding fairly simple posts.

torin8
13-05-2007, 12:37
Lets have less of the personal stuff please everyone. Oh and stick to topic (hint - look at the thread title!).

Grahame
13-05-2007, 12:41
Grahame, I don't know what game you think you're playing, but I keep saying "the point is this", and then explaining it, and you keep replying, "I don't know what your point is".
You're just making out that your incapable of actually reading or understanding fairly simple posts.

The thread title is, "Is it right for a parent to impose their religious beliefs on their child?" and I gave my reply in post 11.

I said no.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 12:53
And since then you have continued to argue that they don't actually do that.
Despite the evidence that most children follow the same religion as their parents.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 13:03
And since then you have continued to argue that they don't actually do that.
Despite the evidence that most children follow the same religion as their parents.

I answered that here

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2233877&postcount=93

G.

ANGELUS
13-05-2007, 13:05
I dont think its right at all and I am strongly against it.
Let the child decide once they are older and have their own opinions.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 13:06
I answered that here

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2233877&postcount=93

G.

Reality is at odds with your assertion though. Most adults are the same religion as their parents. A small few are not, but the majority are. Therefore the indoctrination works in most cases.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 13:08
Reality is at odds with your assertion though. Most adults are the same religion as their parents. A small few are not, but the majority are. Therefore the indoctrination works in most cases.

That is not what the evidence says. Read the web site.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 13:09
You are arguing in the face of all the evidence and rationality that people do not in general follow the religion of their parents.
Your capability for self delusion is truly surpassing.
If you are telling me people can't think for themselves, then you are deluding yourself.
I was not telling you that. I was telling you that you are wrong and that most adults are the same religion as their parents.
This cannot be explained by them just happening to come to the same choice as their parents did, or there would be no measurable correlation.
I think it was actually pretty clear that that is what I said though, and you were trying to deflect my point by pretending to misunderstand it.

Cyclone
13-05-2007, 13:11
That is not what the evidence says. Read the web site.

It lists a minuscule number of converts, that doesn't prove or disprove anything.
No one is claiming that people never change religion. What is being claimed is that the vast majority of people do not change religion, you know this to be true. What does Christianity say about obscuring the truth in order to win an argument?

Grahame
13-05-2007, 13:13
I was not telling you that. I was telling you that you are wrong and that most adults are the same religion as their parents.
This cannot be explained by them just happening to come to the same choice as their parents did, or there would be no measurable correlation.
I think it was actually pretty clear that that is what I said though, and you were trying to deflect my point by pretending to misunderstand it.

If you are saying people indoctrinate their children into religion then I suggest you do a poll of forum members. The reply will be a resounding NO.

You have it completely wrong Cyclone.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 13:35
It lists a minuscule number of converts, that doesn't prove or disprove anything.
No one is claiming that people never change religion. What is being claimed is that the vast majority of people do not change religion, you know this to be true. What does Christianity say about obscuring the truth in order to win an argument?

The list I gave goes into several pages and only contains household names. Considering how few household names the average person has heard of the full list will run into millions.

Heeley tyke
13-05-2007, 13:52
yawwwwnnnnn!!!!!!!

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 14:55
The list I gave goes into several pages and only contains household names. Considering how few household names the average person has heard of the full list will run into millions.
There are 6 billion people on this planet including iirc c. 2.4 billion Christians, 1.5 billion Muslims and 1 billion Hindus and several hundred million Buddhists, Animists, followers of Chinese folk religion… so even if your dubious extrapolation is correct a few million converts still doesn’t stop most theists from being of the same religion of their parents.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 15:05
There are 6 billion people on this planet including iirc c. 2.4 billion Christians, 1.5 billion Muslims and 1 billion Hindus and several hundred million Buddhists, Animists, followers of Chinese folk religion… so even if your dubious extrapolation is correct a few million converts still doesn’t stop most theists from being of the same religion of their parents.

I don't accept a word you say but supposing several generations of the same family attend the same church every Sunday, so what? It's only like families meeting up at the pub for a drink. It is nothing to do with indoctrination.

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 15:17
I don't accept a word you say
:huh: What so you don't except that their are billions of Christians and Muslims and hundreds of millions of Buddhists, Hindus, Animists... why don't you accept this patently true and easily varifiable fact?

but supposing several generations of the same family attend the same church every Sunday, so what? It's only like families meeting up at the pub for a drink.
It's not the same thing at all, unless when they get to the pub they listen to ideological speaches, sing ideological songs and send their children off to take ideological lessons...

discodown
13-05-2007, 15:23
It's not the same thing at all, unless when they get to the pub they listen to ideological speaches, sing ideological songs and send their children off to take ideological lessons...what kind of weird pub is this?!

Grahame
13-05-2007, 15:28
:huh: What so you don't except that their are billions of Christians and Muslims and hundreds of millions of Buddhists, Hindus, Animists... why don't you accept this patently true and easily varifiable fact?


It's not the same thing at all, unless when they get to the pub they listen to ideological speaches, sing ideological songs and send their children off to take ideological lessons...

Of course there are different religions, so what?

As for families meeting up, it is perfectly natural. The only difference is that in the pub they sing "My Old Man's a Dustman" and "Roll out the Barrel" and "Knees Up Mother Brown" and all stand round telling the same jokes and talking about the ideology of politics.

As for what else you say there are only limited choices, so when we all vote in the elections, seeing as there are only a three of four choices it is only natural that people are going to vote the same way.

But it is nothing to do with indoctrination. You are so off-beam it is unreal.

Heeley tyke
13-05-2007, 15:30
:huh: What so you don't except that their are billions of Christians and Muslims and hundreds of millions of Buddhists, Hindus, Animists... why don't you accept this patently true and easily varifiable fact?


It's not the same thing at all, unless when they get to the pub they listen to ideological speaches, sing ideological songs and send their children off to take ideological lessons...


I don't know to which pub you are referring but I'm glad I don't live near it!!!

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 15:34
what kind of weird pub is this?!
Well the description matches no pub I ever went to, it does however match every church I was ever taken to.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 15:40
Well the description matches no pub I ever went to, it does however match every church I was ever taken to.

I don't know what you mean by ideology plekanhov, but I reckon if I were to give a talk on photography, orienteering, the propagation of radio waves, or the history of Loxly and The Royal Forest of the Peak, you would say it was ideological. :loopy:

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 15:42
Of course there are different religions, so what?
The point isn’t that there are different religions but that the number of adherents they have means your argument that a few millions converts means most believers don’t follow the religion of their parents is patently absurd.

As for families meeting up, it is perfectly natural. The only difference is that in the pub they sing "My Old Man's a Dustman" and "Roll out the Barrel" and "Knees Up Mother Brown" and all stand round telling the same jokes and talking about the ideology of politics.
So in your considered opinion the only difference between pubs and churches in the kind of songs people sing :loopy:

Do you really not see the difference between people standing around talking to each other as equals and sitting neatly in rows whilst somebody else talks at them?

Grahame
13-05-2007, 15:50
The point isn’t that there are different religions but that the number of adherents they have means your argument that a few millions converts means most believers don’t follow the religion of their parents is patently absurd.


So in your considered opinion the only difference between pubs and churches in the kind of songs people sing :loopy:

Do you really not see the difference between people standing around talking to each other as equals and sitting neatly in rows whilst somebody else talks at them?

You are making something out of nothing, and of course no one ever sits in rows in the classroom while someone talks to them do they? Until after school that is, which is just like after church when everyone gathers round for a cup of coffee and a natter. Neither have you been to churches where it is standing room only, a little like a pop concert really with guitars etc. and a similar atmosphere. I'm sorry plekhanov you have so little understanding of what you are talking about I'm surprised you come on and show your ignorance.

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 15:51
Grahame is as ever unreachable by reason and evidence and his refusal to acknowledge the undeniable fact that a clear majority of religious people in the world follow the religion their parents and community helped indoctrinate them into has hijacked the thread long enough.

The facts of the situation are clear enough and the intention of this thread seems to have been to discuss the ethics of the attempts made by religious adults to indoctrinate children not whether they do so, which all but the most determinedly self deluding must fully accept that they do.

The lengths religious parents and communities go to in an attempt to indoctrinate their children are so long established in our society that people just take them for granted but simply by imagining how people would react to parents with a secular ideology acting in exactly the same manner we can see just how troubling what religious parents inflict upon their children really is.

Imagine you lived next door to a communist couple with young children, first of all consider would you describe them as ‘communist children’? I think not as they obviously haven’t got the mental capacity to embrace of refute communism however if their parents were Christians you would most likely describe them as ‘Christian Children’ despite the fact that they are exactly as unable to judge the merits or otherwise of Christianity.

I these hypothetical parents conducted elaborate ceremonies dedicating their infant children to the communist party wouldn’t you think that was rather creepy? Then why don’t you think it’s creepy when Christians dedicate their children to their church?

If these parents forced their children to go to communist indoctrination events every Sunday where they were forced to sing songs about the glories of communism and study the wisdom of Marx would you see nothing wrong in that? If not why do we accept parents taking their children to church and Sunday school?

If these parents read their children stories specifically designed to instil ‘communist values’ (which involve acts of genocide and murder) at every bed time and then made them recite communist mantras before going to sleep would you think it acceptable? If not then why are we so blasé about parents who read children bible stories and make them say prayers?

If parents who strongly believed in a secular ideology acted in anything close to the way religious parents commonly do, people would judge the secular ideologues behaviour both peculiar and immoral, I put it to you that it is exactly as immoral when religious parents act in the same manner.

Grahame
13-05-2007, 15:53
Grahame is as ever unreachable by reason and evidence and his refusal to acknowledge the undeniable fact that a clear majority of religious people in the world follow the religion their parents and community helped indoctrinate them into has hijacked the thread long enough.

The facts of the situation are clear enough and the intention of this thread seems to have been to discuss the ethics of the attempts made by religious adults to indoctrinate children not whether they do so, which all but the most determinedly self deluding must fully accept that they do.

The lengths religious parents and communities go to in an attempt to indoctrinate their children are so long established in our society that people just take them for granted but simply by imagining how people would react to parents with a secular ideology acting in exactly the same manner we can see just how troubling what religious parents inflict upon their children really is.

Imagine you lived next door to a communist couple with young children, first of all consider would you describe them as ‘communist children’? I think not as they obviously haven’t got the mental capacity to embrace of refute communism however if their parents were Christians you would most likely describe them as ‘Christian Children’ despite the fact that they are exactly as unable to judge the merits or otherwise of Christianity.

I these hypothetical parents conducted elaborate ceremonies dedicating their infant children to the communist party wouldn’t you think that was rather creepy? Then why don’t you think it’s creepy when Christians dedicate their children to their church?

If these parents forced their children to go to communist indoctrination events every Sunday where they were forced to sing songs about the glories of communism and study the wisdom of Marx would you see nothing wrong in that? If not why do we accept parents taking their children to church and Sunday school?

If these parents read their children stories specifically designed to instil ‘communist values’ (which involve acts of genocide and murder) at every bed time and then made them recite communist mantras before going to sleep would you think it acceptable? If not then why are we so blasé about parents who read children bible stories and make them say prayers?

If parents who strongly believed in a secular ideology acted in anything close to the way religious parents commonly do, people would judge the secular ideologues behaviour both peculiar and immoral, I put it to you that it is exactly as immoral when religious parents act in the same manner.

You are all mixed up.

plekhanov
13-05-2007, 15:57
You are all mixed up.
Will you please address the content of my post, of which there was quite a bit, instead of posting nothing but personal abuse.

evildrneil
13-05-2007, 15:58
[MOD NOTE] OK I think this has gone round in circles for long enough. Consider it closed for a breathing period...