As a response to peoples complaints that there doesnt seem to be any threads that can conjure up a little.... fire from people, I want to attempt to start a good debate.

Its gonna be crap, isnt it...? Ill give it a try anyway.


Democracy. Other nations seem to have trouble adapting to or adopting democracy, Africa for example, seems to be full of corruption, the Middle east too, they seem to despise the very concept of it. They actively fight against it and many have said that they prefer a despotic tyrant to it.


Why is that? Do they know something about it that we dont? Are they incapable of using democracy in a civillized manner for some reason?
We`ve all seen the news clips, people waving placards with "To hell with democracy" on them.

Am I being racist? Assuming that Africans and Arabic peoples cant handle it? Do any European countrys have the same trouble with it?
Is democracy a dying art? Can you imagine a future where the concept of democracy is a thing of the past...?

Oh yeah...


DISCUSS!


Forgot that bit :D

Democracy gives people the illusion that they have choice and can influence things. In fact it's just a means of producing weak liberal governments which can be manipulated by (and possibly bought by) business and political global elites.

do we live in a democracy? :D

we'll I'd say so far as society goes we're a very civilized one - maybe a "democracy" ;) works?

Hurrah! The End. I went out today. My plant grew 1mm. I know, cos I saw it with my own eyes. :hihi:

("I" find it funny anyway, even if you guys don't!)

what kind of plant bago?

Jabberwocky - I think you missed the point.

Some people don't want to have to excercise their little grey cells...they want OTHER people to excercise THEIR little grey cells, hopefully in a way that generates sopme salacious gossip at the same time. :D

I have to agree with Churchill who said soemthing along the lines of 'Democracy is the best of a bad lot'. I think that for it to work you have to have a basic thread of trust running through society - no trust = no faith that the voting process works.

That trust comes from stable social structures that have some degree of transparency - unfortunately, we're losing these and I think that our own democracy is beginning to slip away.

what kind of plant bago?

It's a Money Tree. I can't remember the latin name now. I bought it from B&Q. :cool:

I know Im no good at getting people to yell at each other, Im far too shallow.

Besides just thinking the title up for this thread popped three of my five remaining brain cells.

It's a Money Tree. I can't remember the latin name now. I bought it from B&Q. :cool:

"Moneyus treeus"

Thats the latin name.

It is, yeah. Trust me on this.

It's a Money Tree. I can't remember the latin name now. I bought it from B&Q. :cool:

is this it?

http://www.tcsiam.com/tcsiam/money_tree.htm

They say that each time a leaf drops from the tree its owner is going to get money.

Its a very attractive plant isnt it? I wonder if its possible to Bonsai one...

They say that each time a leaf drops from the tree its owner is going to get money.

Its a very attractive plant isnt it? I wonder if its possible to Bonsai one...

I think you can actually.

"Moneyus treeus"

Thats the latin name.

It is, yeah. Trust me on this.

or could it be of the genus "cash-it-onitus woodicus", a popular variety of money tree among many democratic societys

Do we actually want a democracy? The usually low turn out at elections would suggest that we don't.The people who don't vote will of course be the first to complain if the right to vote is taken away.
When I worked in engineering we had a vote for a strike and I was the only person who voted against.A shop steward asked me why,my reply was if everyone votes the way you want every time eventually you will stop asking us.He walked away shaking his head.That was the one and only day I have ever been on strike in almost 50 years of working.

Ten years worth of Tony Blair's brand of 'democracy' clearly illustrate the points made by angle20 and JoeP.

If a govt. can successfully operate with the approval of a mere 22% of the electorate, and what's more operate with it's chief minister deciding policy purely on the grounds of providing him with some sort of personal 'legacy' then there is little wonder 'our' kind of democracy is held in contempt elsewhere.

If you don't believe me read this.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/06/ngordon06.xml

:P

Am I being racist? Assuming that Africans and Arabic peoples cant handle it? Do any European countrys have the same trouble with it?
Is democracy a dying art? Can you imagine a future where the concept of democracy is a thing of the past...?

yes, the UK has trouble with it, but it's not just Europe, the US also has trouble with democracy, in fact, if you read deeply and widely enough, i think you'll find that what you take to be a democracy isn't, and most people, us included, don't live in one.

do we live in a democracy? :D

we'll I'd say so far as society goes we're a very civilized one - maybe a "democracy" ;) works?

i'd say we're a very uncivilized society actually...

And it will be interesting to see how the French brand of democracy works out over the next few weeks. The indolent left are going to lose their guaranteed 35 hour week - fighting on the streets I'll bet :D

As a response to peoples complaints that there doesnt seem to be any threads that can conjure up a little.... fire from people, I want to attempt to start a good debate.

Its gonna be crap, isnt it...? Ill give it a try anyway.
I feel for bad for trashing the thread, but I will give it a good response now.

Democracy. Other nations seem to have trouble adapting to or adopting democracy, Africa for example, seems to be full of corruption, the Middle east too, they seem to despise the very concept of it. They actively fight against it and many have said that they prefer a despotic tyrant to it.
So in your eyes, Democracy will solve everything? How about what works for one country may not work for another?

Why is that? Do they know something about it that we dont? Are they incapable of using democracy in a civillized manner for some reason?
We`ve all seen the news clips, people waving placards with "To hell with democracy" on them.
To hell with it because all they see from the Middle East are probably wars after wars, and if this is representation of what democracy is all about... deaths, poverty, fighting, instability.. do you blame them? All this fighting, for what, at the end of the day? It's patronising for us who live in the stable West to call people backwards, savages and whatnots, when they are at the frontlines and are seeing people dying. It's different if the individuals want democracry for themselves, but it is another thing if we are enforcing this on others.

The irony is that, even if they just merely hold up placards, they are being somewhat democratic. Even if the words are harsh, and it shows chaos, as portrayed to sensationalise by the media, people are venting their frustration. Yet, for us sitting here in the comfort of our own home and be uppity about their manners and behaviour is a little removed from reality over in the Middle East.

If a person feels that he had been wronged in life, by his government, by the influence of Western society, who does he blame? How can we expect a person who may have experienced all this to act civilised and be polite?

Am I being racist? Assuming that Africans and Arabic peoples cant handle it? Do any European countrys have the same trouble with it?
Is democracy a dying art? Can you imagine a future where the concept of democracy is a thing of the past...?
Please look to Russia? Is it a true democratic country?

Actually I learned quite a lot from the money tree thing. You CAN Bonsai them and thats what Im planning to do.

Im wondering if Democracy is... how can I put this...? Anti human? It isnt a racial thing, or a society thing, people seem to WANT to be led by hard, despotic leaders.
Democracy is relatively rare, hard leaders arent.

Media DOES have a lot to answer for, it hates to show the good sides of the middle east or Africa, its as if they have to get our attention with nice violent news. They ought to realise theyre reporting news, not telling a tale.

at risk of trivialising the inferred seriousness of this particular thread.
i feel a txt i recieved recently just about sums up the political scene prevelent in our country today.

" tony blair & gordon brown have announced they are to change the unioun jack for a condom as our national emblem, they feel this would best illustrate our governments political stance.
a condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of p***Ks and gives you a sense of security while your actually being screwed !".

as the old adage goe's " many a true word spoken in jest":suspect:

Maybe the one good thing about democracy is the fact that we are able to talk about it in open forum without the sound of jackboots at our door. It is only as good as the people we choose to elect, and clearly we've been making a mess of it recently, either by voting for the wrong person or reason or worse still, not voting at all. Get past the blow dried hair and pretty faces and vote for substance. Abe Lincoln could not get elected today. We have television.

As a response to peoples complaints that there doesnt seem to be any threads that can conjure up a little.... fire from people, I want to attempt to start a good debate.

Its gonna be crap, isnt it...? Ill give it a try anyway.

Democracy. Other nations seem to have trouble adapting to or adopting democracy, Africa for example, seems to be full of corruption, the Middle east too, they seem to despise the very concept of it. They actively fight against it and many have said that they prefer a despotic tyrant to it.

Why is that? Do they know something about it that we dont? Are they incapable of using democracy in a civillized manner for some reason?
We`ve all seen the news clips, people waving placards with "To hell with democracy" on them.

Am I being racist? Assuming that Africans and Arabic peoples cant handle it? Do any European countrys have the same trouble with it?
Is democracy a dying art? Can you imagine a future where the concept of democracy is a thing of the past...?
Democracy has only been the norm in Western Europe for half a century, for even less time than that in the former Soviet block and Europeans certainly had 'trouble adapting to or adopting democracy', 'seemed to be full of corruption' and on numerous occasions seemed to 'prefer a despotic tyrant to it' (I assume you've heard of Hitler).

It's easy for people who’ve experienced peace and democracy in their lifetime across the bits of Europe that they were paying attention to (whilst ignoring the Eastern block, Spain, Portugal…) to assume that functioning democracies are the norm and shake our heads at countries elsewhere that fail to achieve it. But the fact is that Democracy only came to Europe very recently after centuries of struggle, we can’t simply expect it to appear overnight elsewhere, especially not when you consider the disruptive effects colonialism and the cold war had on the development of civil society in many countries around the world.

Thats an excellent point you make there. Its easy to imagine that democracy has been in Europe since the beginning of time, but in fact, its only a relatively new concept here isnt it.

Thats an excellent point you make there. Its easy to imagine that democracy has been in Europe since the beginning of time, but in fact, its only a relatively new concept here isnt it.
Well we've had a various levels of democracy in the UK for several centuries, iirc under 10% of the adult population could vote in 1800 and we didn't get full sufferage till the 1920s or 30s. Some places like Germany had elected but essentially powerless parliaments in the late 19th Century and quite a few places gained and then quickly lost democratic constitutions in the aftermath of WWI but yes the democratic Europe that we know and love is a relatively recent development.