Let me know what your views on iraq are because it is making me laugh that some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT

I'm with you on this.. Let our boys do their job and stop getting on their back! People need to see things from their point of view.. Waking through a market.. Knowing half the people are not hostile, and half want to see your blood..

It's easy for you all to sit behind your newspaper and point a finger.. put yourself in their shoes for gods sake :roll:

there are plenty of threads around the forum relating to the members views on Iraq...many of which you have found and ressurected. Perhaps you could find something specific to warrant opening a whole new thread when there is lots of information available to your current question.

Moon

I thought this was an open forum and so allowed anyone to ask a question.

No one has specifically asked about why people have a problem with the soldiers in Iraq.
This person seems to have been so why can`t we let him have his opinion and debate the question.
Or do certain members not want to hear what actually takes place over there and have a problem with the truth.

Originally posted by Mike24
Let me know what your views on iraq are because it is making me laugh that some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT

You know this how ?

I know this because i was there, on op telic 2 last year

do you agree that you can support the soldiers but be against the war?

how about the soldiers that are there that don't support the war -are they not up to the job in your opinion?

Yeah I keep forgetting that whilst looking for 1 man thousands must die :roll:

So in order to believe that Iraqi's arent all that innocent we must believe one soldiers story that they basically deserve it.. Thats where we went wrong guys :suspect:

Originally posted by rosie
I thought this was an open forum and so allowed anyone to ask a question.



Obviously not, Rosie. We have to check in first, it seems. Must get back to reading my copy of Animal Farm.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deejay
Yeah I keep forgetting that whilst looking for 1 man thousands must die :roll:

So in order to believe that Iraqi's arent all that innocent we must believe one soldiers story that they basically deserve it.. Thats where we went wrong guys :suspect: [/QH

How many soldiers have you asked then clever clogs, and i didnt ask you to believe me did i, i know what is the truth and what isnt because i was there and you was'nt, was you?

Originally posted by sham71
do you agree that you can support the soldiers but be against the war?

how about the soldiers that are there that don't support the war -are they not up to the job in your opinion?

There won't be one soldier over there who is against the war. They weren't drafted, they are professional soldiers who made an informed choice to join the army.

They are doing a difficult job over there trying to make the country safer in time for the elections in january. Most Iraqi's want them there, I know this because one of my friends has just returned from a tour of duty onboard a ship over there. They want them there because they understand what they are trying to do.

Its only the religious extremists who have made Iraq a warzone who are the biggest threat to peace over there. Normal Iraqi's appreciate what our boys are doing over there, they are attempting to make their communities safer.

They also would rather our soldiers be there than american forces who are more gung-ho. Try to see both sides of the argument. Support our soldiers over there.

Originally posted by Mike24
some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT
Guily of living in their own country?
The Lancet estimates 100,000 dead civilians, the majority of them women and kids. Perhaps you'd share with the rest of us your knowledge of their gullt and also therefore the justification of their deaths?

Originally posted by nez75
There won't be one soldier over there who is against the war. They weren't drafted, they are professional soldiers who made an informed choice to join the army.

They are doing a difficult job over there trying to make the country safer in time for the elections in january. Most Iraqi's want them there, I know this because one of my friends has just returned from a tour of duty onboard a ship over there. They want them there because they understand what they are trying to do.

Its only the religious extremists who have made Iraq a warzone who are the biggest threat to peace over there. Normal Iraqi's appreciate what our boys are doing over there, they are attempting to make their communities safer.

They also would rather our soldiers be there than american forces who are more gung-ho. Try to see both sides of the argument. Support our soldiers over there.

I dont want to offend you but did your mate go on land because our job was to ask Iraqie people what they thought of us there and about(i say about) 80% of them didn't want us there they was happy for the liberation but they wanted us to go after that.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
Guily of living in their own country?
The Lancet estimates 100,000 dead civilians, the majority of them women and kids. Perhaps you'd share with the rest of us your knowledge of their gullt and also therefore the justification of their deaths?

There is no justification to their deaths, but come back and talk when you have figures on how many saddam killed during his reign

Originally posted by Mike24
I dont want to offend you but did your mate go on land because our job was to ask Iraqie people what they thought of us there and about(i say about) 80% of them didn't want us there they was happy for the liberation but they wanted us to go after that.

No he didn't go on land. You obviously know more about the situation over there then pal. Surely we just can't leave though can we? Or maybe we're just making things worse by winding them up by simply being there. Not sure how we're gonna solve the whole crappy mess over there. Its all f***** up.

Originally posted by nez75
There won't be one soldier over there who is against the war. They weren't drafted, they are professional soldiers who made an informed choice to join the army

so when the family of the blackwatch soldier who died last week said he had said he didn't support the war, they were lying?

Do you want to tell them that?

QUOTE]Originally posted by nez75
There won't be one soldier over there who is against the war. They weren't drafted, they are professional soldiers who made an informed choice to join the army.
[/QUOTE]

Got to disagree with you there...there are some definitely! Yes, they made an informed choice to join the army..They also knew that joining the army means following orders and putting your life on the line. Soldiers (or 'our boys' which for some reason people seem to keep calling them) can't pick and choice which order to follow, which exercise or deployment to go on - whether it was NIreland, Iraq or messing around in the jungle around in Belize...They go out there and do the very unpleasant job they are trained to do.

I think you can disagree with the war in Iraq and still support the army and their families - I stuggled with this last year. I've family in the army and whilst i can't imagine why anyone would join up I'll defend them every time!

Mike - You've probably had experiences which understandably effect your views now. It desn't mean others can't disagree..any stereotypes or judgements we have about the army, iraqis (and even the Americans!) tend to be wrong and there's always exceptions everytime.

Originally posted by Mike24
There is no justification to their deaths, but come back and talk when you have figures on how many saddam killed during his reign

No offence mate but that isn't the issue here, its the war on Iraq and the 'Guilty' People (as you stated) there was the start of the topic, not what happened before we and the Americans tore it to shreds.

Originally posted by Mike24
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deejay
[B]

How many soldiers have you asked then clever clogs, and i didnt ask you to believe me did i, i know what is the truth and what isnt because i was there and you was'nt, was you?

You are a newcomer to this forum Mike24, so you don't know the drill yet. It doesn't matter if you were there. You can't possibly be right. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Killian
You are a newcomer to this forum Mike24, so you don't know the drill yet. It doesn't matter if you were there. You can't possibly be right. :rolleyes:


how come when you disagree with anti-war people, thats ok. When an anti-war person disagrees with you, its some sort of Forum conspiracy.

If you want everyone to agree with you, go on a Forum in Texas.

Originally posted by sham71
how come when you disagree with anti-war people, thats ok. When an anti-war person disagrees with you, its some sort of Forum conspiracy.

If you want everyone to agree with you, go on a Forum in Texas.

Because I'm allowed to disagree with anyone I like, or have you just helped to prove my point?

I think I've said this before, but your brother, Sham69 was so much nicer.

Originally posted by sham71


If you want everyone to agree with you, go on a Forum in Texas.

Didn't know there was a Forum for Homebase.

Originally posted by Killian
Because I'm allowed to disagree with anyone I like, or have you just helped to prove my point?

I think I've said this before, but your brother, Sham69 was so much nicer.

no, feel free to disagree. But its better to debate the point than resort to saying this is some sort of left wing den.

Originally posted by sham71
how come when you disagree with anti-war people, thats ok. When an anti-war person disagrees with you, its some sort of Forum conspiracy.

If you want everyone to agree with you, go on a Forum in Texas.

to be honest sham i dont actually think you give a flying monkeys about those in iraq as long as you can post your pathetic jibes about bush its ok funny how you didnt come on here for days after bush jr won the election handsomly isnt it

Originally posted by sham71
no, feel free to disagree. But its better to debate the point than resort to saying this is some sort of left wing den.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I would rather listen to someone who has actually been there then someone who is just blowing off hot-air from an armchair.

Actually, I am against the war as, to me, it is a pointless waste of time and lives. However, I was interested in what Mike24 had to say - you know, someone who had actually been there - but obviously others know it all, without actually knowing anything.

Originally posted by panda79
to be honest sham i dont actually think you give a flying monkeys about those in iraq as long as you can post your pathetic jibes about bush its ok funny how you didnt come on here for days after bush jr won the election handsomly isnt it

You see, Sham69+2, you have a go at me when you actually are a biased leftie.

Originally posted by panda79
to be honest sham i dont actually think you give a flying monkeys about those in iraq as long as you can post your pathetic jibes about bush its ok funny how you didnt come on here for days after bush jr won the election handsomly isnt it


Actually, having one parent who is British and one who is from Syria, I care about the soldiers AND the civilians.
When the righteous Mr Bush goes into Syria with his targeted missiles, I'll be sure to let you know how my 88 year old grandmother is getting on in Damascus.

I was interested in his views.. Just wasn't interested in the 'I was there so I must know'.. If I believed what 1 person said all the time Id just believe everything I read in the paper :)

Originally posted by Deejay
I was interested in his views.. Just wasn't interested in the 'I was there so I must know'.. If I believed what 1 person said all the time Id just believe everything I read in the paper :)

What, you mean the newspapers tell lies?
You'll be telling me politicians are dishonest next. :D

Originally posted by Killian
You'll be telling me politicians are dishonest next. :D

Careful, you will shatter my confidence in this wonderful Government we have..

like i said earlier i don't expect anybody to believe me i just wanted to put forward my point of view and see what others points of view was, i think that everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not cluttering sheffield up with war protesting its not going to make a bit of differance and it doesn't help the soldiers know that everybody back home is supporting them. I was in iraq 2 days after turning 18 and it was a dreadfull experiance and i will admit that i didn't want to be there but at the end of the day it was my (or should i say our) job to defend the Iraqie people and keep the peace and the majority of the population didn't help the lads do their jobs they made it worse, it doesn't help when people here say that the iraqie population are innocent cause 8 times out of 10 the women and kids were the cause of the problem, cause you can all call me a liar but i have the pictures to back up what im saying and before anybody says they are fake don't bother cause i have the negatives as well, so thank you all for replying and forwarding your points of view and even though im not in the army ANY MORE i still mourne for those that have lost and will still loose their lives.

100% mate the lads are doing there job the iraqi people are well out of order,do they walk about in blinkers,they seem to forget what that evil b*****d has done, the brave lads over their want support not insults.iff only the dead people in mass graves could speak,i wonder iff they would defend iraq dont think so.all the people out there who think this battle is unjust why not f**k off and live in iraq, or you can live in the uk were people can chat on computers and listen to music and watch telly get a real life,live in the real world,iff it wasnt for the brave men that has fought for this country over hundreds of years you would not have your freedom of speach god save england and the boys over there.when i meet them i will buy there beer all night

Originally posted by GazB
I'm with you on this.. Let our boys do their job and stop getting on their back! People need to see things from their point of view.. Waking through a market.. Knowing half the people are not hostile, and half want to see your blood..

It's easy for you all to sit behind your newspaper and point a finger.. put yourself in their shoes for gods sake :roll: where you there? did you ever wear dpm and do your time ? or are you an arm chair worrior,i was in 38/64 royal sigs unit,never been to iraq but if you were there then you will know my unit,been going for years as sog support,walk through a market? never in this wide world unless its been hammered first.........try google search..21/23/ 264 sas sigs...sorry just pissxd off with wannabees

Originally posted by depoix
where you there? did you ever wear dpm and do your time ? or are you an arm chair worrior,i was in 38/64 royal sigs unit,never been to iraq but if you were there then you will know my unit,been going for years as sog support,walk through a market? never in this wide world unless its been hammered first.........try google search..21/23/ 264 sas sigs...sorry just pissxd off with wannabees apologies for the rant,but you just cant let a battalion of soldiers run amock,they could go nuts and fire at everything that moves ( a free fire zone )
thats what the yanks are doing and they are bieng wasted for it, better the brits way,hearts and minds,learnt over decades of wars,in usa the special forces (usa ) have fort bragg,a training ground they think its like hereford,but they learn to assault buildings with terrorosts in them,the brits have hands on northern ireland where buildings have civillians as well as terrorists in them and they come under real fire,not blanks,ergo you learn who to shoot at and who not to,we wear soft tops,the yanks go in with full body armour,looks agressive( helps their ego ) you get more out of some one if your body language says " hey im here to help you " not bow down im an american..see what i mean ? iraq is one huge fuxk up because the allies have let the usa take the lead...

duke of eding,royal reg 24464117 dont mix me with the wa**ERs

Originally posted by stwar
duke of eding,royal reg 24464117 dont mix me with the wa**ERs wich ******s would thy be?

Originally posted by depoix
you get more out of some one if your body language says " hey im here to help you " not bow down im an american..see what i mean ? iraq is one huge fuxk up because the allies have let the usa take the lead...

you got that right, but I think that had the US administration not decided to invade iraq, using both WMD and the "war on terror" as vague justifications, then we would still only be bombing Iraq from the air and there wouldn't even have been a ground war.

whatever happened to our soldiers fighting for our queen and country?:confused: ,when the troops come out ,it will be back to square 1,they are trying to give them a decent life but do they really want it?

Originally posted by pauline
whatever happened to our soldiers fighting for our queen and country?:confused: ,when the troops come out ,it will be back to square 1,they are trying to give them a decent life but do they really want it?

Of course they do - thats what everyone wants! However imposing "democracy" (yes the quotes are there for a reason - the reason being its not real democracy!) externally from the barrel of a gun is never going to work. At best the imposed structures will not fit with the existing structure of the society and it will all quitely fall apart at worst it will breed resentment and violence.

Try this hypothetical situation - the states is in fact an islamicist society and decides that the UK should be too - fo rour own good and the good of our souls it bombs the crap out of us for 10 years then swamps us with arrogant troops who know nothing of our capitalist way, trample on the things we hold dear, shoot our citizens, impose an islamicist society and then expects us to thank them for it. Now how do you feel about whats happening in Iraq?

I am taking time out today to revive an 18 month's old thread. I confess I have not read all of it, although I probably should have done so.

The title is basically the question about the Iraqi people's attitude to the British soldiers serving there.

At present, Blair is clinging to his job by his very short fingernails.

At the time of the start of the Iraq War, one Mr. Geoffrey Hoon was the Defence Minister (1999-2005) , sending in the nation's best with inadequate equipment to do the job and now "demoted once again" to Blair's team as "Minister for Europe" :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, our troops are still in Iraq,those who have managed to survive I mean.

A couple of weeks ago, it was reported in the press that the main religious representative of the Shia Sect..... in a vast majority in Southern Iraq..... with very strong connections to their brethren in Iran..... has stated that they "would not require military action to rid the area of the British Troops....all it would take is a small truck with a loud hailer patrolling the streets of Basra and the British would be out".

It is not difficult to work out what he meant.

Today it is reported that a British Helicopter went down in Basra. Few details are available as I write, but it is thought to be the result of a ground to air missile.

The helicopter came down on a house. The locals behaved in a disgusting manner at the site of the crash.

Why are our people still in Iraq?

Why is Blair still in office?

Why is Hoon still in the Government?


Helicopter Story Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=EHPUM2YJ5QTJHQFIQMFSFGGAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2006/05/06/ucopter.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/05/06/ixportaltop.html)

I would imagain the worst thing for the soldiers over there is that they cannot tell friend from foe.

Let me know what your views on iraq are because it is making me laugh that some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT HEY who you calling a muppet,so you were on op telec, wowee,you the only one on here ever worn a uniform then ? you know what they say, " them that have done it dont shout about it" ok ? end ex !!!!!

I think it would be very easy to say pull out our troops. The sight of hundreds of Iraqis celebrating the death of four Brits and pelting those trying to save them is disgraceful. But if we do pull out like many want us too, then how do you see Iraq developing??

I think now we are there we have a job to do. But let's be there for Iraqi's as i undersatnd the majority support our role there. As soon as this stops then it's time to leave.

For me the sooner there all out the better, that said the job has to be done.:thumbsup:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deejay
Yeah I keep forgetting that whilst looking for 1 man thousands must die :roll:
So in order to believe that Iraqi's arent all that innocent we must believe one soldiers story that they basically deserve it.. Thats where we went wrong guys :suspect: [/QH
How many soldiers have you asked then clever clogs, and i didnt ask you to believe me did i, i know what is the truth and what isnt because i was there and you was'nt, was you?
Mike, you're wasting your time trying to convince the armchair generals and international statesmen of the Forum that you could possibly know more about a war zone, just because you've served there.

Depoix's post is typical - tell them that you know something from direct experience, and they come up with things like "" them that have done it dont shout about it" .

From the pictures on TV the British soldiers did show immense bravery trying to rescue their colleagues.

The people of Basra have short memories - they were butchered by Saddam - if it was up to the French and British liberals they would still be being tortured to death by the tens of thousands.

Let's not give them the satisfaction of cheering dead British lives - leave them to it in a land that just cannot think for itself and where the Sunnis may well turn against Basra, once again.

That's what they want (they're clearly sado-machoists) when they dance when downing British helicopters, setting tanks alight - that's what they should get.

I am all behind the lads and lasses out in Iraq doing their job and protecting our country- however, what I dont agree with is the soldiers bitching and complaining about how the conditions/why they shouldnt be out there etc.. etc..

They chose the job - they should live with it.
That what they chose their profession to be in life.

Like I said- I'd like to say thanks though for keeping us safe.

I am all behind the lads and lasses out in Iraq doing their job and protecting our country- however, what I dont agree with is the soldiers bitching and complaining about how the conditions/why they shouldnt be out there etc.. etc..
They chose the job - they should live with it.
That what they chose their profession to be in life.
Like I said- I'd like to say thanks though for keeping us safe.
Soldiers can't strike or go slow. They signed up to do a great many things that most people don't have the spine to do, so when the government shafts them and puts them into the melting pot of hate, fear and danger that Iraq is, safe in the knowledge that they'll be subject to legal scrutiny and PC-driven prosecution if they defend themselves against fanatical murderers, they should have the right to bitch a little.

Soldiers can't strike or go slow. They signed up to do a great many things that most people don't have the spine to do, so when the government shafts them and puts them into the melting pot of hate, fear and danger that Iraq is, safe in the knowledge that they'll be subject to legal scrutiny and PC-driven prosecution if they defend themselves against fanatical murderers, they should have the right to bitch a little.

And I thank them for doing the job they do - however- they chose their employment and they were not pushed into doing so.

Its part and parcel of their jobs - although I agree with their moans about their kit which proved to be a real problem for them doing their jobs properly- our lads and lasses need top notch kit out there serving for us.

And I thank them for doing the job they do - however- they chose their employment and they were not pushed into doing so.
Its part and parcel of their jobs - although I agree with their moans about their kit which proved to be a real problem for them doing their jobs properly- our lads and lasses need top notch kit out there serving for us.
Yes, they chose the job, but in many of their cases the way they are being treated now equates to a change of employment conditions compared to the conditions they signed up to - if that happened in a civvy firm the unions would sort it, while the soldier has no union, just a series of shaftings coming down from the cabinet.

Yes, they chose the job, but in many of their cases the way they are being treated now equates to a change of employment conditions compared to the conditions they signed up to - if that happened in a civvy firm the unions would sort it, while the soldier has no union, just a series of shaftings coming down from the cabinet.

Like I said mate before- they chose the job.

They have to deal with it.. thats why I chose not to join our forces when I left school as I have no intention of killing/wounding any other human being or in any other way becoming a human target for someone else to shoot at- its just not my bag mate.

I appreciate the job that they are doing- and I appreciate that they are getting shafted somewhat which needs to be sorted out.

Like I said mate before- they chose the job.

They have to deal with it.. thats why I chose not to join our forces when I left school as I have no intention of killing/wounding any other human being or in any other way becoming a human target for someone else to shoot at- its just not my bag mate.

I appreciate the job that they are doing- and I appreciate that they are getting shafted somewhat which needs to be sorted out.


Here here. If they dont like it, then tough. They shouldnt have signed up in the first place. But Good on them for doing it however. I wouldnt.

Here here. If they dont like it, then tough. They shouldnt have signed up in the first place. But Good on them for doing it however. I wouldnt.

:thumbsup:
Cheers mate!

Its right though isnt it?
Why go into a job then bitch and moan about what goes on when you are there- its just madness.

Its like wanting to be a plumber, doing all the courses and becoming one and then complaining when someone's loo is blocked up becuase their crap stinks!

:thumbsup:
Cheers mate!

Its right though isnt it?
Why go into a job then bitch and moan about what goes on when you are there- its just madness.

Its like wanting to be a plumber, doing all the courses and becoming one and then complaining when someone's loo is blocked up becuase their crap stinks!

As I said when re-opening this thread, it was a thread started 18 months ago.

Much has happened since that time in the Basra area, and the situation is now much worse for our military.

The area seems to be on the point of reaching a complete anti-British rebellion with its populous. The original thread starter was asking the question then, why use our troops in a situation where the natives are revolting?

I think it is time, definitely, to remove our forces out of there, and let them make their own hell-hole.

Todays Basra (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article362537.ece)

: snippy Its right though isnt it? Why go into a job then bitch and moan about what goes on when you are there- its just madness.

IMO the people on this thread moaning about our soldiers complaining is just madness too. I see lots of people moaning about their jobs, cheating their employers by using their work time to come on here moaning about their jobs and how bored they are. If they don't like their work why don't they just put up or shut up too. Sorry Angelus but we can't have it both ways.

I agree we should pull out our troops and let them get on with it over there. We should never have been in it in the first place. But then IMO we shouldn't have done a lot of things, like selling weapons, supporting sanctions and so on. I don't have access to the information the Government has so it's hard to take an overview.

It seems to me that at least Iraq was a fairly secular society under Saddam, now it looks like it's going to be yet another fanatical Islamic hellhole when we eventually leave. The prospect of which fills me with grave misgivings.

Frankly, I have nothing whatsoever 'against' British Army servicemen/women in Iraq. Soldiers have no choice whatsover regarding where they are posted. Otherwise, one might arrive at a situation similar to the one in an old Monty Python sketch in which a would-be recruit gives 'the water-skiing and the travel' as reasons for his enthusiasm for Army life [ television Army recruitment adverts of the 1970s tended to emphasise the recreational aspects of services life rather than the distinct possibility of death from a Republican sniper's bullet in Armagh]. My enmity is reserved for the fatuous politicians who have chosen to meddle in the affairs of the former Mesopotamia. 'Iraq' itself is the hastily-constructed product of an earlier European colonialism and belief in utopian panaceas and international idealism. No true conservative would ever support the Bush/Blair terror, and the hideous 'neo-conservatives' that do are as far removed from the philosophy of Burke and Salisbury as is possible to be.

Rubydazzler makes a cogent point regarding the 'secular' nature of Saddam's regime. Sometimes, in international politics, it is a case of favouring [to coin a cliche] 'mine enemy's enemy'. Saddam Hussein treated sections of his own people atrociously, but that should be neither our business or our concern. What should have been our priority is to nurture a good, diplomatic relationship with the 'Beast of Baghdad'. Saddam provided a useful bulwark against the Wahabist extremism which we now live in terror of. More sophisticated diplomats [one thinks of the French, who secured the freedom of hundreds of POWs that the Vietnamese officially denied holding in the aftermath of Dien Bien Phu in the 1950s] might have flattered this very typical Arab despot, and kept him firmly on the side of the West. Good Heavens! All it would have taken is a little 'bullshine', a box or two of his favourite Quality Street chocolates and some 'Icey Crem'. Now, as ruby notes, the whole country increasingly resembles 'another fanatical Islamic hellhole'. I, and millions of others share rubydazzler's grave forebodings about the future of Iraq and the safety of our Armed personnel there. George Galloway [whom I usually have little time for ] made a chilling analogy with the battle of Islandwana of the Zulu War, when describing the plight of our Army in Iraq. Comment would be superfluous.

tbh this disgusts me, my fiance is in the army and has served in Iraq, at the time he was there (last year) the locals seemed friendly with them, but we have been in their country at least 2-3years now and i think they must be feeling now that Saddam is out of the picture that they want their country back, Tony Blair should get our lads out now we have done the work they wanted, captured Saddam, let the Iraqi army and police sort their own country out now!!!!

What happened yesterday with the helicopter, British Troops dying and then Iraqis cheering must surely be an eye opener to Tony Blair?

But hey, he doesnt care about this country the only thing he cares about is himself, we need to get this bloke OUT asap, he is a disgrace!!!!

If that was my fiance who had died yesterday i would be wanting some answers of that g*t!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today it is reported that a British Helicopter went down in Basra. Few details are available as I write, but it is thought to be the result of a ground to air missile.

The helicopter came down on a house. The locals behaved in a disgusting manner at the site of the crash.

Sadly, I fear we're seeing the end of goodwill between Iraqi civilians and British troops.

Life for Iraqi civilians, post-Saddam, was supposed to improve, but with events such as Abu Ghraib prison and the flattening of the town of Falluja, perhaps Iraqis now see foreign troops as the enemy rather than liberators?

Sadly, I fear we're seeing the end of goodwill between Iraqi civilians and British troops.

Life for Iraqi civilians, post-Saddam, was supposed to improve, but with events such as Abu Ghraib prison and the flattening of the town of Falluja, perhaps Iraqis now see foreign troops as the enemy rather than liberators?

Oh Abdul, you just don't get it do you............with the Southern Provinces it's a tribal and religious thing, mixed with outside Fundamentalist support from its neighbour Iran.

As for Abu Ghraib...that was an abberation, and miniscule when comparing that with what is happening on the streets of Iraq to ordinary citizens with the sectarian killings by fellow citizens every day.

With regard to Fallujah, no Army given the duties of protecting themselves and Iraqi Citizens elsewhere can possibly afford to ignore the hotbed of insurgency that town attracted..............harsh but fair..........

I have nothing against soldiers in Iraq.

At least they are not on my train ruining my journey.

:hihi:

As for Abu Ghraib...that was an abberation, and miniscule when comparing that with what is happening on the streets of Iraq to ordinary citizens with the sectarian killings by fellow citizens every day.

Shoehsine, you're right, perhaps I don't get it... whatever 'it' is... :huh:

Definiton of aberration
n. deviation; momentary mental lapse;

Is that how you describe the torture in Abu Ghraib?

I agree sectarian killings are a regular occurence in Iraq, and I condemn them, but foreign troops were supposed to be acting as liberators for the Iraqi people, not as their conquerors. That you casually disregard events in Abu Ghraib, as other killings are happening elsewhere in Iraq is quite odd.

With regard to Fallujah, no Army given the duties of protecting themselves and Iraqi Citizens elswhere can possibly afford to ignore the hotbed of insurgency that town attracted..............harsh but fair..........

Noble intentions at least, but along with what happened in Abu Ghraib, has the bombing of Fallujah improved the situation for foreign troops and Iraqi civilians?

Has it increased the goodwill between the two parties? I fear todays events prove otherwise.

:thumbsup:
Cheers mate!
Its right though isnt it?
Why go into a job then bitch and moan about what goes on when you are there- its just madness.
Its like wanting to be a plumber, doing all the courses and becoming one and then complaining when someone's loo is blocked up because their crap stinks!
No, it's not. A plumber knows what he's going to do. Most of the members of the armed forces signed up to do a very different job to what we're doing now - because the current crop of idiots in the Cabinet use the military as international pawns.

No, it's not. A plumber knows what he's going to do. Most of the members of the armed forces signed up to do a very different job to what we're doing now - because the current crop of idiots in the Cabinet use the military as international pawns.


Then they should do their employers over breach of contract or such.

Then they should do their employers over breach of contract or such.
Sadly there is no contract - just attestation or swearing an oath of allegiance.
It's because there is no contract that the government can shaft the Armed Forces so badly.
Many key support trades are being largely civilianised to save money, but now that we have so many more overseas commitments, the few uniformed tradesmen in those areas are spending more time detached overseas than at home with their families (because the civvies won’t go to war zones). Working hours stretch longer and longer, allowances and privileges are reduced each year, and people who signed up to contribute to the British defence against a cold war environment are sent to Iraq so that Tony Blair can further his campaign to be recognised as an international statesman when he retires (his own admission).
It's a farce, and ten of thousands of superb people are being used and abused.

Sadly there is no contract


Fair enough, I didnt know that. You learn something everyday :thumbsup:

Do you know what, i am sick to the back teeth of idiots slagging our troops off, you dont know what s*it they have to put up with, my fiance has been in nearly 3years, he hates it, wants to get out but he cant, they wont let him, most people in their have tried taking their own lives, most after seeing the trauma of Iraq and Afghan,

you may well slag up troops off, but without them you wouldnt be here!!!

im sure you moan about bad days at work, stressed out??
Well this is 100times worse than that, they are being FORCED to go into a country and fight where they do not want to, if they disobey they get send to jail!!!

We have had our time in Iraq, helped them asmuch as we can, now leave it to their own people, own army and own police to sort their country out!!!

Bring our lads home now before anymore lives are lost, my thoughts are with the families of those soliders who died at the weekend,

and anyone slagging the off our soldiers.........COME SAY IT TO MY FACE DI*KS!!!!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Do you know what, i am sick to the back teeth of idiots slagging our troops off, you dont know what s*it they have to put up with, my fiance has been in nearly 3years, he hates it, wants to get out but he cant, they wont let him, most people in their have tried taking their own lives, most after seeing the trauma of Iraq and Afghan,

you may well slag up troops off, but without them you wouldnt be here!!!

im sure you moan about bad days at work, stressed out??
Well this is 100times worse than that, they are being FORCED to go into a country and fight where they do not want to, if they disobey they get send to jail!!!

We have had our time in Iraq, helped them asmuch as we can, now leave it to their own people, own army and own police to sort their country out!!!

Bring our lads home now before anymore lives are lost, my thoughts are with the families of those soliders who died at the weekend,

and anyone slagging the off our soldiers.........COME SAY IT TO MY FACE DI*KS!!!!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

u tell them kidda they are just moaning hippies!!!!!! i was out on sat nite and there was a lad in our group of mates and he is on run from army (not lithgow ) and he is seriously depressed about it. he hates it. But at the end of the day we would be blown into oblivion wiv out them.

without them you wouldnt be here!!!

How so? :huh:

We have had our time in Iraq, helped them asmuch as we can, now leave it to their own people, own army and own police to sort their country out!!!

Thought we went to liberate them and get a democratic government going?


Bring our lads home now before anymore lives are lost, my thoughts are with the families of those soliders who died at the weekend

Any life lost in this phoney war is wrong.

How so? :huh:

Thought we went to liberate them and get a democratic government going?Any life lost in this phoney war is wrong.

There is no need to stir up a subject which has been discussed ad infinitum on other threads, with you as a contributor, 4U2NV.

This thread subject is about how come the UK soldiers and general UK military in Iraq are being reviled by the general populace in their sector.

Abdul, no decent person approves of what the US military renegade few did in Abu Ghraib Prison.....but that was nothing to do with the UK military in the Souther Sector.


Civilian and Military projects to repair and renew the infrastructure there in the UK Sector for the benefit of the indigenous people have now virtually come to a standstill.

What is the point of keeping the UK troops ( all of whom I might remind you are the sons/daughters/ husbands/wives/partners/fathers/mothers of children here in the Uk, at risk to life and limb for a population aggressively ranged against them?.........

MissGobby, Bartfast I am with you 100% on this one, and make no apology for so being....................

Thanks DIAMONDRAVA, knew i could rely on you to back me up :)

4U2NV - your "How so?" question - i was not just talking about our soliders today, but soldiers in general, world war1, world war2, you know people who slag soldiers off is disgusting, the things they do for this country and get slagged down for it.

Well i tell you what, if anyone slags them off near me i will give them what 4!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

and thank you Shoeshine, at least there are some people who arnt against them, thanks :)

There can be no doubt that conditions for the troops in Iraq are becoming increasingly untenable, with each day that passes. To castigate, ridicule or abuse the troops is unfair and frankly beneath anyone with a decent life outlook.
Bring the forces home, they served their purpose in a conflict which in my opinion was based on a series of outrageous lies, but the people of Iraq need to regain some sense of 'control' in their homeland. Inevitably there are still divisions, but they must be allowed to police the situation without the inflammatory presence of an 'occupying force'.
To sign up for military service is, and always has been an honourable exercise, we should recognise the debt that is owed to those who have died, for whatever cause.

If I have one small criticism of the OP, had he posted his initial question with some less aggressive language, he would have avoided the reaction of indignation and aggression in return.

I don't think that British soldiers should ever have been involved in a war which was always going to be impossible to win, but have no doubt that the vast majority are doing an excellent job against overwhelming odds.

Iraq is a disgrace. But no-one should be distracted from the fact that the Bush regime of idiocy is to blame for the everyday horrors over there, and not the soldiers.

My sons best friend is a RAF helicopter pilot, he is just like another member of our family so recent events became personal. Nick knows the risks and will do his duty, its just that he could be sent to his death by a liar who does not care how many have to die in order to feed his ultra ego.

We should not be in Iraq but whilst we are we should support our troops, they didn't start the war they simply did what they were ordered to do. And please don't post silly things about Nazi concentration guards 'only obeying orders'.

If I have one small criticism of the OP. had he posted his initial question with some less aggressive language, he would have avoided the reaction of indignation and aggression in return.

I agree that the original poster of this thread titled it inadvertently, in a somewhat ambiguous way. I am convinced he really meant.."What have people in Iraq got against our soldiers?" and has been somewhat interpreted as "What have people here in the UK got against our soldiers in Iraq".

Semantics, I know, but nevertheless very important....

"What have people here in the UK got against our soldiers in Iraq".

If put like this i have nothing against the soldiers its the policies they are working under im against. :thumbsup:

Thanks DIAMONDRAVA, knew i could rely on you to back me up :)

4U2NV - your "How so?" question - i was not just talking about our soliders today, but soldiers in general, world war1, world war2, you know people who slag soldiers off is disgusting, the things they do for this country and get slagged down for it.

Well i tell you what, if anyone slags them off near me i will give them what 4!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

lol MissGobby, there is a difference between soldiers fighting in the world wars and those fighting now. Our country is not under attack as it was. Soldiers signed up to fight an injust war and as much as I wish them well you have to understand a lot of people in this country are against this war and have the right to say so. Your silly threats to people who might say anything against our soldiers within your earshot belongs in hicksville. I will take you up on your offer anytime :)

Nat
xx

Listen Natasha, have you got a fiance who is in the army? who has fought in Iraq? until you have someone close to you and have experienced it 1st/2nd hand u know absolutley nothing!!!!

These lads are going out and risking their lives to save silly t*ssers like you, now im sorry but if you havent got the guts to do something for your country like these lads are doing i would keep your gob shut, i am sick to death of people slaggin them off! why?

They dont CHOOSE to go out to Iraq, to do this, to do that, they are ORDERED and if they choose to disobey they get a jail sentance!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

Also, i am totally 100% AGAINST this war, so are the majority of the forces, but they dont choose to go and fight the war they are ordered by d*ckhead Tony Blair!!!!

Sorry Nat if i seem like i am shoutin but it gets me so upset, no1 has any idea what they have to go throught against their own will and what the families have to go through just because Tony Blair wont admit he was wrong and bring these lads back!!!

A perspective from a member of the special forces in Baghdad:

AN SAS soldier has refused to go into combat in Iraq alongside United States forces after branding their tactics "illegal".

Ben Griffin, 28, left the army after three months in Baghdad over the behaviour of US troops and the policies of coalition forces. He is believed to be the first SAS soldier to refuse to go into combat and quit the army on moral grounds.

Mr Griffin said at the weekend that he witnessed dozens of illegal acts by US fighters who viewed Iraqis as "sub-human". He said: "I saw a lot of things in Baghdad that were illegal or just wrong.

"I knew, so others must have known, that this was not the way to conduct operations if you wanted to win the hearts and minds of the local population.

"And if you can't win the hearts and minds of the people, you can't win the war."

Mr Griffin, who was born in London and raised in Wales, said he told his commanders in Hereford that he could no longer take part in a war that was "illegal".

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said.

Expecting to be reprimanded, court-martialled and branded a coward, he was instead discharged from the army and given a reference describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Defence said that the department did not comment on matters involving SAS personnel.

Kim Howells, the Foreign Office minister, this weekend admitted that Iraq was "a mess" during a visit to the country to inspect the oil industry.

Listen Natasha, have you got a fiance who is in the army? who has fought in Iraq? until you have someone close to you and have experienced it 1st/2nd hand u know absolutley nothing!!!!

These lads are going out and risking their lives to save silly t*ssers like you, now im sorry but if you havent got the guts to do something for your country like these lads are doing i would keep your gob shut, i am sick to death of people slaggin them off! why?

They dont CHOOSE to go out to Iraq, to do this, to do that, they are ORDERED and if they choose to disobey they get a jail sentance!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

Missgobby,

You are really putting your point accross well by calling me a tosher! These lads are not saving me at all!!! I would be in far less danger if they didnt go to war. Britain hasnt needed to goto war to protect its citizens for decades. So to say they are protecting me is rubbish. If your fiance was so afraid of going to war then why on earth did he sign up to be soldier????
Its what they do!

Nat
xx

Listen Natasha, have you got a fiance who is in the army? who has fought in Iraq? until you have someone close to you and have experienced it 1st/2nd hand u know absolutley nothing!!!!

These lads are going out and risking their lives to save silly t*ssers like you, now im sorry but if you havent got the guts to do something for your country like these lads are doing i would keep your gob shut, i am sick to death of people slaggin them off! why?

They dont CHOOSE to go out to Iraq, to do this, to do that, they are ORDERED and if they choose to disobey they get a jail sentance!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

chill out! We're all entitled to our own opinions.....


Sorry Nat if i seem like i am shoutin but it gets me so upset, no1 has any idea what they have to go throught against their own will and what the families have to go through just because Tony Blair wont admit he was wrong and bring these lads back!!!

You called her a f*****g tosser, if thats not shouting at somebody what is :loopy:

Obviously not, Rosie. We have to check in first, it seems. Must get back to reading my copy of Animal Farm.

As with anything that is 'open' it's open to some more than others. What page are you on?

Sorry Nat if i seem like i am shoutin but it gets me so upset, no1 has any idea what they have to go throught against their own will and what the families have to go through just because Tony Blair wont admit he was wrong and bring these lads back!!!

MissGobby, I admit I cant imagine what it must be like for you and your fiance. It must be horrible knowing he could die any day for an unjust cause. I dont envy you and I hope he comes back to you safe! I just think you need to understand that people will take their frustrations out on the soldiers as well as the politicians because of idiots like the op. Dont take it personal.

Nat
xx

I agree that the original poster of this thread titled it inadvertently, in a somewhat ambiguous way. I am convinced he really meant.."What have people in Iraq got against our soldiers?" and has been somewhat interpreted as "What have people here in the UK got against our soldiers in Iraq".

Semantics, I know, but nevertheless very important....For one or two posters who seem to take the Thread Title literally, given that the OP's original first post seemed to be aimed at the Iraqis and not at the UK population, I will repeat my post made earlier today........

MissGobby and NATA5HA...please......you are both on the same side in this..............:)

Listen Natasha, have you got a fiance who is in the army? who has fought in Iraq? until you have someone close to you and have experienced it 1st/2nd hand u know absolutley nothing!!!!

These lads are going out and risking their lives to save silly t*ssers like you, now im sorry but if you havent got the guts to do something for your country like these lads are doing i would keep your gob shut, i am sick to death of people slaggin them off! why?

They dont CHOOSE to go out to Iraq, to do this, to do that, they are ORDERED and if they choose to disobey they get a jail sentance!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

Nobody ordered them to join the forces.

Look Nat im sorry i just get really frustrated, i know everyone has their own opinions but when they take it out on soldiers it really upsets me!

I know they join up, and yes you expect them to get called up to war, BUT when a war is not necessary e.g. Iraq and they are FORCED to go even though they do not agree with it, im sorry but how can you blame the soldiers? it is Tony Blair who made them go, they cant pick and chose if they want to go or not, this is my argument,

Although my fiance hates the army, he did chose to go in BUT it doesnt mean people can slag him off for going to Iraq,

The army is soo different these days, if you hate it, its tough, you HAVE to do at least 4years, my fiance has hated it since his 1st year but he must finish his 4years.

It was so hard for me when he was in Iraq, but while he was there the violence wasnt half as bad as what it is today.

Please just think about what you say about soldiers, it is Tony Blair you need to be slagging off not our lads....

get that Pr*k out and get someone in who can sort out our country!!!!!

:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Your right and hugs being sent out to ya missgobby :)

Nat
xx

Let me know what your views on iraq are because it is making me laugh that some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT

To answer your OP, I have nothing against the soldiers.. they are doing their job. As far as them being in Iraq, well thats a different matter :(

I don't have anything against soldiers in Iraq. As far as I can tell they are doing a pretty good job under difficult circumstances. The Iraq sisuation as I see it is that we did a really useful thing in getting rid of Saddam but that our presence there now is probably not needed.

We toppled old camel breath, put him and his mates on trial and oversaw democratic elections. The problem is now all that is done what is there left that we (as an outside power) usefully do there now? We seem to be stuck in the middle of a civil war and are getting fired on by all sides. It may be better now to leave Iraq as our presence is doing more harm than good.

Listen Natasha, have you got a fiance who is in the army? who has fought in Iraq? until you have someone close to you and have experienced it 1st/2nd hand u know absolutley nothing!!!!

These lads are going out and risking their lives to save silly t*ssers like you, now im sorry but if you havent got the guts to do something for your country like these lads are doing i would keep your gob shut, i am sick to death of people slaggin them off! why?

They dont CHOOSE to go out to Iraq, to do this, to do that, they are ORDERED and if they choose to disobey they get a jail sentance!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

risking their lives for who??? silly tossers like mr bush love not Natasha and us, i never asked for your fella to go fight an non-exitent war, if he dont like it then he shouldnt have joined in the first place!. No i havent got the guts to kill innocent families and children, and to fight against wars we have no place in. But i do have the guts to stick up for what is right, and im afraid shooting guns is not one of them, each to their own and all that, they dont CHOOSE to go to Iraq, but they definately made a CHOICE to join the army, so what do you expect?

risking their lives for who??? silly tossers like mr bush love not Natasha and us, i never asked for your fella to go fight an non-exitent war, if he dont like it then he shouldnt have joined in the first place!. No i havent got the guts to kill innocent families and children, and to fight against wars we have no place in. But i do have the guts to stick up for what is right, and im afraid shooting guns is not one of them, each to their own and all that, they dont CHOOSE to go to Iraq, but they definately made a CHOICE to join the army, so what do you expect?

These folk join the armed forces for many different reasons, one being the lack of jobs in the traditional industrial heartlands. The government of the day owes them a duty of care, something that has been sadly lacking in the Iraq fiasco.

It's no good blaming the front line service man or woman for the mess that this self centered, corrupt useless government has created. Our service men and women would be far better used as peace keepers in Africa but there is a severe oil deficiancy there, unlike the position in Iraq. Don't get angry about some young man or woman attempting to stay alive in Iraq, get angry about the pillocks who sent them there.

Thank you Crooksey xx

These folk join the armed forces for many different reasons, one being the lack of jobs in the traditional industrial heartlands. The government of the day owes them a duty of care, something that has been sadly lacking in the Iraq fiasco.

It's no good blaming the front line service man or woman for the mess that this self centered, corrupt useless government has created. Our service men and women would be far better used as peace keepers in Africa but there is a severe oil deficiancy there, unlike the position in Iraq. Don't get angry about some young man or woman attempting to stay alive in Iraq, get angry about the pillocks who sent them there.

you should be telling gobby that mate, im not blaming the front line for the mess that is, im blaming the big guys who send them there. But gobby is out of order with some of her statements, all that **** about not having the guts to join the army, i find that funny and very narrow minded, if thats the case why is she sat here and not in iraq?

There is no justification to their deaths, but come back and **** when you have figures on how many saddam killed during his reign

using weapons supplied by us & uk arms dealers

Let me know what your views on iraq are because it is making me laugh that some muppets think that people in Iraq are innocent well let me tell you muppets one thing THEY ARE NOT


well if you think the people of Iraq aren't innocent then by the same logic you're also saying that the civilians in the West are also not innocent.

Therefore by inference.....you can figure the rest :help:

Although my fiance hates the army, he did chose to go in BUT it doesnt mean people can slag him off for going to Iraq


Pardon? He hated the army and still volunteered to join them?

WTF?

risking their lives for who??? silly tossers like mr bush love not Natasha and us, i never asked for your fella to go fight an non-exitent war, if he dont like it then he shouldnt have joined in the first place!. No i havent got the guts to kill innocent families and children, and to fight against wars we have no place in. But i do have the guts to stick up for what is right, and im afraid shooting guns is not one of them, each to their own and all that, they dont CHOOSE to go to Iraq, but they definately made a CHOICE to join the army, so what do you expect?

I concur :thumbsup:

using weapons supplied by us & uk arms dealers
Er, I never knew Kalashnikovs and RPGs were made in Britain or the US. Funny how I always thought they were made in Russia (and the former Soviet Union) and China.:loopy:

It's no good blaming the front line service man or woman for the mess that this self centered, corrupt useless government has created. Our service men and women would be far better used as peace keepers in Africa but there is a severe oil deficiancy there, unlike the position in Iraq. Don't get angry about some young man or woman attempting to stay alive in Iraq, get angry about the pillocks who sent them there.

Well said. I have a friend who's a medic on the front line. Despite being told he would only have to go out the once, he's just gone out for the third time.

Er, I never knew Kalashnikovs and RPGs were made in Britain or the US. Funny how I always thought they were made in Russia (and the former Soviet Union) and China.:loopy:

Were the people killed under saddam's regime killed by ak47's and rpg's?

TwoFour, what i meant, if you read it properly, is that my fiance joinde up to see what it likes, but it isnt like a normal job, you MUST stay in for at least 4 years, and after the first year or so my fiance hated it and still does, just like he hated having to go fight in war him, and most others didnt believe in!!!!

Were the people killed under saddam's regime killed by ak47's and rpg's?
Yes, all 1.5 million of them were killed by RPGs and Kalashnikovs, plus poison gas, plastic shredders and many other things.

Well, they certainly didn't carry out voluntary suicide.

Yes, all 1.5 million of them were killed by RPGs and Kalashnikovs, plus poison gas, plastic shredders and many other things.

Well, they certainly didn't carry out voluntary suicide.

gathered that :thumbsup:

using weapons supplied by us & uk arms dealers

he wasn't wrong firecracker the UK and US did actually supply saddam.
whether that were rpg's and kalashnikov's :huh:

Er, I never knew Kalashnikovs and RPGs were made in Britain or the US. Funny how I always thought they were made in Russia (and the former Soviet Union) and China.:loopy:

furry muff, soz, i'll expand my inadequate statement to include russia, china and other major arms manufacturers

my point is that the broken down countries currently being bullied tend not to have the means to supply their own arms, and the usa and uk are the main protagonists and manufacturers

the politicians who send the lads to war tend to have huge shares in arms supplying businesses - for them, war is big business, death is profit

the usa supplied saddam with arms for years when he was fighting iran

the cia trained the mujhadeen freedom fighters (oops, sorry, that's what we used to be told they were, they're called terrorists now) in afghanistan when they were being invaded by russia

etc etc etc, for years

my fiance joinde up to see what it likes



did he think it'd be like a big adventure holiday or wot?

lashings of ginger beer on kirrin island

If Zarqawi, OBL etc wanted to persuade themselves that the West is weak, they could do far worse than stumble onto this thread. If I were Zarqawi, I would be thinking that the British population is a pushover - a far cry from the Britain of 1940 which stood alone, stood up to the might of the Luftwaffe, and proved to Hitler that "Britain could take it". Just imagine if Hitler could come back to life for a week in 2006 and see this forum. He would bemoan the fact that we weren't around in 1940. He would instantly believe that we would have blamed Chamberlain and Churchill for the Blitz on our cities. He would sob at the thought that the Waffen SS was up against our grandads instead of us.

Lets face facts. We are up against an implacable enemy which has harboured desires to bring the entire infidel world under a global caliphate for the past 1,400 years, and has only believed for the past 25 or 30 years that this is possible - something they couldn't do between 1683 when they were routed outside Vienna, and 1973 when they suffered a similar rout at the hands of the Israelis. And why do you suppose the Islamists fancy their chances against us for the first time in 10 or so generations? The answer to that question lies on the news channels, in our newspapers, and on many messageboards. We have been softened up and left vulnerable to this violent creed by 40 years of political correctness and self-guilt, and this, plus our unwillingness to learn about our enemy, name the enemy out of fear of being labelled a racist or a bigot, and the inevitable protests that come when we act in self-defence is our undoing. Its time to get our heads out of the John Lennon "Give peace a chance" or the "Imagine" mentality, and realise that we are up against an enemy which doesn't want peace - only global conquest at all costs, just as our ancestors - among them Winston Churchill and John Quincy Adams - would have recognised.

That is such a stupid post!

how dare you compare Hitler and WWII to what "terror" we face today!
They are totally different beasts and well you know it. Your post actually has the opposite effect to what you were trying to achieve. You are insulting the very souls you claim to praise. You are cheapening what the population went through in 1945, through the blitz, comparing it to a single bombing which killed a comparative miniscule number of people!

Nat

That is such a stupid post!

how dare you compare Hitler and WWII to what "terror" we face today!
They are totally different beasts and well you know it. Your post actually has the opposite effect to what you were trying to achieve. You are insulting the very souls you claim to praise. You are cheapening what the population went through in 1945, through the blitz, comparing it to a single bombing which killed a comparative miniscule number of people!

Nat
Have you listened to what Ahmadinejad has been saying - his promises to carry out a nuclear holocaust against Israel, then presumably the West. He's after nukes, and after supplying the sort of terrorists we've been wiping out for the past 3 years with nukes. And how convenient that Iraq has a border with Iran. We all know what followed when we ignored a certain Hitler's promises to carry out a holocaust 70 years ago.

And as you go on about bombings, there have been 5,000 fatal terrorist atrocities carried out by Islamists against infidels since 11th September 2001 alone. Or don't they matter to you because 4,999 of them took place outside Britain? They certainly matter to me, regardless of where they take place.

If Zarqawi, OBL etc wanted to persuade themselves that the West is weak, they could do far worse than stumble onto this thread. If I were Zarqawi, I would be thinking that the British population is a pushover - a far cry from the Britain of 1940 which stood alone, stood up to the might of the Luftwaffe, and proved to Hitler that "Britain could take it". Just imagine if Hitler could come back to life for a week in 2006 and see this forum. He would bemoan the fact that we weren't around in 1940. He would instantly believe that we would have blamed Chamberlain and Churchill for the Blitz on our cities. He would sob at the thought that the Waffen SS was up against our grandads instead of us.

Lets face facts. We are up against an implacable enemy which has harboured desires to bring the entire infidel world under a global caliphate for the past 1,400 years, and has only believed for the past 25 or 30 years that this is possible - something they couldn't do between 1683 when they were routed outside Vienna, and 1973 when they suffered a similar rout at the hands of the Israelis. And why do you suppose the Islamists fancy their chances against us for the first time in 10 or so generations? The answer to that question lies on the news channels, in our newspapers, and on many messageboards. We have been softened up and left vulnerable to this violent creed by 40 years of political correctness and self-guilt, and this, plus our unwillingness to learn about our enemy, name the enemy out of fear of being labelled a racist or a bigot, and the inevitable protests that come when we act in self-defence is our undoing. Its time to get our heads out of the John Lennon "Give peace a chance" or the "Imagine" mentality, and realise that we are up against an enemy which doesn't want peace - only global conquest at all costs, just as our ancestors - among them Winston Churchill and John Quincy Adams - would have recognised.

well written rubbish

most muslims, like most people, don't want unending war - only a relatively small number of extremist nutcases are up for this (on both sides)

the real enemy that wants unending war (with an invisible "terrorist" enemy) is the covert cabale controlling the overt puppet governments, the few people and families who own half the worlds weath between them, who manipulate world events to create a climate of fear so they can justify their war mongering and increased control of a supposedly free population

He's after nukes, and after supplying the sort of terrorists we've been wiping out for the past 3 years with nukes.

like who?

how convenient that Iraq has a border with Iran.

:hihi:

We all know what followed when we ignored a certain Hitler's promises to carry out a holocaust 70 years ago.

hitler was manipulated into power by the same stream that are still playing games today - he was related to the rothschilds and a major satanic occultist, taking his orders from occult organisations with connections and controlling influence in all major power bases (then and now)

I'm with David Icke on this one - all world leaders are alien shapeshifting lizards who want to enslave the human race.

how convenient that Iraq has a border with Iran.

surely post of the day. :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

I'm with David Icke on this one - all world leaders are alien shapeshifting lizards who want to enslave the human race.


lolol - well, i've yet be be convinced about that, but each to their own

;)

however, judging by their actions (if you look behind the smokescreen, past the standard government controlled media image) they don't seem to have our best interests at heart (if they've got a heart, that is)

well written rubbish

most muslims, like most people, don't want unending war - only a relatively small number of extremist nutcases are up for this (on both sides)

the real enemy that wants unending war (with an invisible "terrorist" enemy) is the covert cabale controlling the overt puppet governments, the few people and families who own half the worlds weath between them, who manipulate world events to create a climate of fear so they can justify their war mongering and increased control of a supposedly free population
What about those who handed out sweets and danced as New Yorkers plunged 1,000 feet to their deaths out of the 100th floor. But they're only Americans (plus 50 other nationalities) to you. We know about the hate which pours out of the mouths of clerics and mullahs worldwide. We are fully aware of the hostility that has been building up against the West over many years. We know Islamic countries see aid as jizya. That is why the Achenese showed absolutely no gratitude for money given to them in aid following the Boxing Day 2004 tsunami. That is why Muslims issue threats against countries which threaten to cut off aid. And more and more people are starting to recognise what we're up against - no wonder 70% of Americans see Islam in a negative light.

What about those who handed out sweets and danced as New Yorkers plunged 1,000 feet to their deaths out of the 100th floor. But they're only Americans (plus 50 other nationalities) to you. We know about the hate which pours out of the mouths of clerics and miullahs worldwide. We are fully aware of the hostility that has been building up against the West over many years. We know Islamic countries see aid as jizya. That is why the Achenese showed absolutely no gratitude for money given to them in aid following the Boxing Day 2004 tsunami. That is why Muslims issue threats against countries which threaten to cut off aid. And more and more people are starting to recognise what we're up against - no wonder 70% of Americans see Islam in a negative light.

what about them? i'm not surprised they were happy, given american imperialist foreign policy - since ww2 usa has fought with, bombed or invaded 50 plus countries - the worlds biggest warmonger & trouble causer

to be honest i smiled about it until i considered the human side of the disaster

the people who died that day are people to me, it doesn't matter where they were born, what language they speak or what religion they follow

hate filled mullahs do not represent the majority of muslims

what we are up against is the impending new world order, plans for one world government and a microchipped population - if that sounds daft then look into it with an open mind and you may just be surprised - check george bush the elder's speech of 1991 when he ****s about the new world order

what about them? i'm not surprised they were happy, given american imperialist foreign policy - since ww2 usa has fought with, bombed or invaded 50 plus countries - the worlds biggest warmonger & trouble causer

to be honest i smiled about it until i considered the human side of the disaster

the people who died that day are people to me, it doesn't matter where they were born, what language they speak or what religion they follow

hate filled mullahs do not represent the majority of muslims

what we are up against is the impending new world order, plans for one world government and a microchipped population - if that sounds daft then look into it with an open mind and you may just be surprised - check george bush the elder's speech of 1991 when he ****s about the new world order
Without the US, we probably wouldn't have been born. They did more than anyone to defeat fascism 61 years ago. They not only faced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy but also Imperial Japan. And the Yanks are once again being called to save our bacon - this time against the growing power of Islam. We know from apostates that up to 80% of Muslims support the Jihad against the infidel world (al-Harb). Hardly a tiny minority. We've seen too many Muslims chanting Death to America, Death to Israrel, and now Death to Denmark to ignore it any longer. We know how they think. And we know what a Muslim world would be like to live in, and so did our ancestors - thats why they fought in many battles (which they usually lost until Vienna in 1683) to try to save European civilization. We know of that Iraqi woman journalist - murdered in the most brutal fashion with over 20 drill holes bored into her limbs and torso whilst she was still alive, before being finished off by having her throat slit. That is the cruel and barbaric mindset of Islam made flesh.

What about those who handed out sweets and danced as New Yorkers plunged 1,000 feet to their deaths out of the 100th floor. But they're only Americans (plus 50 other nationalities) to you. We know about the hate which pours out of the mouths of clerics and mullahs worldwide. We are fully aware of the hostility that has been building up against the West over many years. We know Islamic countries see aid as jizya. That is why the Achenese showed absolutely no gratitude for money given to them in aid following the Boxing Day 2004 tsunami. That is why Muslims issue threats against countries which threaten to cut off aid. And more and more people are starting to recognise what we're up against - no wonder 70% of Americans see Islam in a negative light.

who is we ? the right wing neo-con's awaiting the rapture ?

If you're fully aware of hostilities, have you managed to figure out why there are such hostilities (and please none of the hogwash about they hate our freedoms, if that was true Sweden would be enemy number 1)

The Achenese have been fighting a civil war with the Indonesian govt, and therefore saw the aid as an Indonesian carrot. Ofcourse you knew that, but there again reading some of the other nonsense you've been espousing, probably not.

Z

Without the US, we probably wouldn't have been born. They did more than anyone to defeat fascism 61 years ago. They not only faced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy but also Imperial Japan. And the Yanks are once again being called to save our bacon - this time against the growing power of Islam.

Does your whole knowledge of 20th century history come from watching Hollywood war movies?
America didn't want to know for the vast majority of the 2nd world war - they only came in at the end and took all the credit.

Does your whole knowledge of 20th century history come from watching Hollywood war movies?

dirty dozen :hihi:
where eagles dare :hihi:
the great escape :hihi:

Does your whole knowledge of 20th century history come from watching Hollywood war movies?
America didn't want to know for the vast majority of the 2nd world war - they only came in at the end and took all the credit.

.........and that's only right, credit where credit is due. They also, single-handedly, beat the Kaiser in the Great War of 1917-1918.;)

Without the US, we probably wouldn't have been born. They did more than anyone to defeat fascism 61 years ago. They not only faced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy but also Imperial Japan.


lol

According to Max Hastings, the USA and the UK killed around 200 000 German soldiers. The USSR killed around 3 500 000 German soldiers. So we really have to thank the communist totalitarian dictator for defeating the fascist totalitarian dictator.

PingPang, like most of the young lads and lasses nowadays they come out of school with hardly any qualifications, my fiance didnt do well at school and so would end up in a dead end job stacking shelves for Netto, that isnt what he wanted in his life so he gave the army a go, even though there are good points which he likes, it is stable, good monthly income, a roof over his head, food everyday, it isnt what he thought, especially as we are a couple and it is hard work having to leave for months on end, but he has givin it a try and gone through 6months fighting in Iraq which is more than you can say isnt it??

im sure your fiance could have gone to college or studied further, its not a case of "oh i did crap in school so ill join the army as my only choice". Everyone has a choice so dont make it sound like he was forced to go there as he had no choice. He just needed to try harder.

dirty dozen :hihi:
where eagles dare :hihi:
the great escape :hihi:

dont forget the Guns of Navarone ! :)

Z

[QUOTE=Mike24]
Mike, you're wasting your time trying to convince the armchair generals and international statesmen of the Forum that you could possibly know more about a war zone, just because you've served there.

Depoix's post is typical - tell them that you know something from direct experience, and they come up with things like "" them that have done it dont shout about it" .


well depoix's done it & doesn't feel the need to shout about it.
so your reasoning is what exactly?

Does your whole knowledge of 20th century history come from watching Hollywood war movies?
America didn't want to know for the vast majority of the 2nd world war - they only came in at the end and took all the credit.

To be fair to the US, they didn't get involved earlier because of the Munroe Doctrine/Agreement which was a deal whereby the Europeans stayed out of the South America's (leaving the US to do as it pleased) and in turn the US would stay out of Europe and leave it to the Europeans.

If not for the that, I'm sure the American flag would have been flying across Europe alot earlier :)

Z

the americans joined in because of pearl harbour & nothing else.they were as much in bed with the nazi's and the fascists as anyone else.
if japan had not been a german ally they wouldn't have ever got into it.

Without the US, we probably wouldn't have been born. They did more than anyone to defeat fascism 61 years ago. They not only faced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy but also Imperial Japan. .

Contender for daftest post of the day. Of course the US fought Italy and Japan on their own didn't they? Tell that to the British, Aussies, Canadians, New Zealanders, Indians et al who fought in the Pacific as well as Europe.

Are you actually saying that the US alone fought against Italy and Japan?

And as has been rightly pointed out it was on the Eastern front that most ALLIED deaths occured.

If it had not been for the wily old fox Churchill the USA may not have joined in either World War. From what I gather it was his selctive release of information that allowed them to be attacked in both conflicts, thereby giving them good reason to join us.
Make no mistake the Yanks wanted to help us both times, but had to have a reason to join us.

If it had not been for the wily old fox Churchill the USA may not have joined in either World War. From what I gather it was his selctive release of information that allowed them to be attacked in both conflicts, thereby giving them good reason to join us.
Make no mistake the Yanks wanted to help us both times, but had to have a reason to join us.

I think there were strong voices in both camps over in the US. Some wanted to join the fight in Europe earlier whilst others wanted to stay out of it altogether.

Contender for daftest post of the day. Of course the US fought Italy and Japan on their own didn't they? Tell that to the British, Aussies, Canadians, New Zealanders, Indians et al who fought in the Pacific as well as Europe.

Are you actually saying that the US alone fought against Italy and Japan?

And as has been rightly pointed out it was on the Eastern front that most ALLIED deaths occured.
Nobodys saying that us, the Aussies, Indians etc didn't face German and Japanese troops, but the biggest effort came from the US - they were the arsenal of democracy - even the Russians admitted that the Americans put the Red Army on wheels, but your vicious anti-Americanism shines through like a beacon as usual. And what of countries 'liberated' by the Soviets - they swapped one despot for another and spent 40 years behind the Iron Curtain. And we haven't forgotten how the Soviets stabbed the Poles in the back in 1939 as part of the terms of the Non-Aggression Treaty drawn up by Hitler and Stalin, and kidnapped and murdered thousands of Polish troops and buried them at Katyn. And Stalin murdered 40 million Soviet citizens between 1924 and 1953.

who is we ? the right wing neo-con's awaiting the rapture ?

If you're fully aware of hostilities, have you managed to figure out why there are such hostilities (and please none of the hogwash about they hate our freedoms, if that was true Sweden would be enemy number 1)

The Achenese have been fighting a civil war with the Indonesian govt, and therefore saw the aid as an Indonesian carrot. Ofcourse you knew that, but there again reading some of the other nonsense you've been espousing, probably not.

Z
Sweden IS public enemy Number 1 to those Muslims who live in Sweden (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/05/is-swedish-democracy-collapsing.html). After all, they've made whole suburbs of Malmo, Gothenburg and Stockholm into no-go areas for native-born Swedes.

Nobodys saying that us, the Aussies, Indians etc didn't face German and Japanese troops, but the biggest effort came from the US - they were the arsenal of democracy - even the Russians admitted that the Americans put the Red Army on wheels, but your vicious anti-Americanism shines through like a beacon as usual. And what of countries 'liberated' by the Soviets - they swapped one despot for another and spent 40 years behind the Iron Curtain. And we haven't forgotten how the Soviets stabbed the Poles in the back in 1939 as part of the terms of the Non-Aggrerssion Treaty drawn up by Hitler and Stalin, and kidnapped and murdered thousands of Polish troops and buried them at Katyn. And Stalin murdered 40 million Soviet citizens between 1924 and 1953.

There was nothing anti-american in my post, perhaps you could quote me something that was.

You said


Quote:
Originally Posted by firecracker
Without the US, we probably wouldn't have been born. They did more than anyone to defeat fascism 61 years ago. They not only faced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy but also Imperial Japan. .

To me that is you saying that the US and only the US fought Italy and Japan.You are clearly dellusional.
I merely pointed out that we had other allies as well that fought and sacrificed. I'm sorry if you cannot accept that without having an anti Stalinist rant. I didn't see anything in my post to suggest support for Stalin but you have to go off on one in order to disparage the courage of the Russian people. Millions of Russians died fighting the Nazis but you seem to want to disregard their sacrifice.

Neither the US or Russia became our allies due to altruism.

If the Germans had not begun an offensive against the Soviets on the Eastern front there would have been no stopping Hitler in Western Europe. His folly was engaging the USSR due to his political hatred of Communism and his desire to expand Eastwards rather than any tactical or military intelligence. Mind you he did get an awful long way in that initial push.

Now please can you explain what is anti-American in this post

I think there were strong voices in both camps over in the US. Some wanted to join the fight in Europe earlier whilst others wanted to stay out of it altogether.

To be fair to the US, they didn't get involved earlier because of the Munroe Doctrine/Agreement which was a deal whereby the Europeans stayed out of the South America's (leaving the US to do as it pleased) and in turn the US would stay out of Europe and leave it to the Europeans.

If not for the that, I'm sure the American flag would have been flying across Europe alot earlier :)

Z

Nice one!

It really peeves me when the Yanks claim to have saved the world in WW2 - if it hadn't been for the sacrifices made by Britain and Soviet Russia, they wouldn't have stood an earthly in Europe. As it was, by the time they deigned to take part in the War, the Russians already had the Germans defeated - it was only a matter of time and the Russian winters.

StarSparkle

lol

According to Max Hastings, the USA and the UK killed around 200 000 German soldiers. The USSR killed around 3 500 000 German soldiers. So we really have to thank the communist totalitarian dictator for defeating the fascist totalitarian dictator.
Another America-hater who downplays the US role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. But then it fits your mindset. The US and UK air forces decimated the German war industry, and brought the horrors of Rotterdam etc right to the German people. At the end of the day, decisive action against Hitler in 1935 - the sort taken by Bush and Blair against Afghanistan and Iraq more than 65 years later, would have saved 60 million lives. But in the enfeebled postmodern PC-driven world that we live in today, Bush and Blair are the criminals, and Zarqawi, OBL and Zawahiri are the new icons of the Blair and Bush-haters. And we all know what upsets Max Hastings most - like most Tories, he is peeved that we didn't have a Tory Prime Minister in Downing Street from 2001 onwards, so he and his acolytes could gush over him and tell us how brave and decisive he was in taking out Saddam Hussein and Mad Mullah Omars Taliban regime, in sharp contrast to their overbloated Blair-bashing today.

furry muff, soz, i'll expand my inadequate statement to include russia, china and other major arms manufacturers

the usa supplied saddam with arms for years when he was fighting iran


Lets now forget The Supergun made by our very own Forgemasters:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/11/newsid_2477000/2477023.stm

Again a number of the Forum members concentrate on US-bashing.

Yes, the main conflict in WW2 took place in Russia. However, the worst winter for decades (as well as Hitler meddling in Hoth and Guderian's plans) screwed things up - were it not for that, Moscow would have been taken, and the rest of Russia, however large, would have been impotent and divided from 'Nazi Russia' by the Urals. 7/8 of German army losses occurred in Russia, but rest assured it was often on a knife edge and the extra divisions that were dedicated to Hitler's Atlantic defences would probably have made a decisive difference in Russia.

While there were many other allied countries fighting around the world, in Italy and Normandy in particular, you mustn't forget the ratio of US forces to all the rest put together. And then, the amount of US-made equipment that was used by British and other allied forces - the US industrial power was what made it so strong.

Whatever people's biased views, and they are as evident as they are naive and are ill-informed, the US were by far the overwhelming contributor to victory in the west, as well as dealing with the huge air and naval campaign in the Pacific.

As for Churchill releasing information to encourage attacks on the Americans – one of the sadder conspiracy theories.

Lets now forget The Supergun made by our very own Forgemasters:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/11/newsid_2477000/2477023.stm
We certainly cannot forget that. Forget John Prescotts stupidity. This Supergun scandal was the mother of all scandals and was the Tory calling card. They let Supergun parts go to Iraq, then tried to cover up their own tracks as illustrated by that collapsed trial of innocent businessmen, and it is only down to eagle-eyed customs officials that the outstanding tubes didn't find their way to Iraq. And how many Tories resigned over it? Clue for the benefit of the messageboard Tories: It's a number less than 1.

Another America-hater who downplays the US role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. But then it fits your mindset. The US and UK air forces decimated the German war industry, and brought the horrors of Rotterdam etc right to the German people. At the end of the day, decisive action against Hitler in 1935 - the sort taken by Bush and Blair against Afghanistan and Iraq more than 65 years later, would have saved 60 million lives. But in the enfeebled postmodern PC-driven world that we live in today, Bush and Blair are the criminals, and Zarqawi, OBL and Zawahiri are the new icons of the Blair and Bush-haters. And we all know what upsets Max Hastings most - like most Tories, he is peeved that we didn't have a Tory Prime Minister in Downing Street from 2001 onwards, so he and his acolytes could gush over him and tell us how brave and decisive he was in taking out Saddam Hussein and Mad Mullah Omars Taliban regime, in sharp contrast to their overbloated Blair-bashing today.


So how am I another America hater? Where and how did you draw this mad conclusion? You are obviously a stark raving launatic, this is confirmed by your observation that Max Hastings is so peeved at there being a labour government that he makes up world war 2 facts. Hmmmm.

So in your :loopy: world what was the Russian contribution to world war 2?

Before we start fighting World War Two again from the comfort of our armchairs, the thread was originally posted about British troops in Iraq.

My view?: BRING EM' HOME!! :thumbsup:

God I hate those yanks. Who do they think they are? Always claiming to have saved the world. What's with them? Always trying to take credit from others.

Who needs 'em? I can't wait until China and India take over. Of course, there is that small matter of China executing prisoners and selling their organs, and India and China do make a business out of selling off female infants because of their backwards, misogynistic, male dominated societies, and my job will prolly be outsourced to India because some Asian person who used to be a surgeon but who can make more money answering the phones in a Calcutta call center will do my job for 2 pounds a week, but that's OK. As long as they're not yanks!!!

God. Can yanks get ANYTHING right? America is the most evil, corrupt nation on earth and George Bush is the anti-christ. They've never contributed anything to the rest of the world. They suck up all the resources and don't leave anything for anyone else. Just yesterday, I went to have a bath and there was no water! The missus says it was because of the plumbing, but that's a lie! I KNOW it was because some yank had used up all the water. Selfish gits.

AND they make movies that TOTALLY twist the facts around to make America look better than it is! Of course, they are American movies made by Americans for entertainment purposes only, and NOT documentaries. AND their "documentaries" are anything but. Stupid yanks. They really do have everything backwards, don't they?

In fact, I'm going to stop seeing American films altogether!
And playing American video games too!! And eating American food. And wearing American clothing. And listening to American music. And watching American television shows. I promise I will. Maybe just until George Lucas comes out with another Star Wars film. You have to start small, right? One thing at a time mate.

And the hole in the ozone is all THEIR fault!

I say, let Iran have nukes. In fact, free nukes for everyone! Morally bankrupt yanks, hogging all the nukes and satellites for themselves! Who are they to tell Iran what to do? That nice man whose in charge over there just wants nukes to use for power. It is a little troubling the way he always looks like he needs a bath. And to take his medication. I guess he's ok as long as you don't look him in the eye.

AND they have the death penalty. Not in all 50 states, but they have the death penalty in some of them!!! We should definitely impose OUR idea of how they should do things and scream like scalded cats when they don't listen! Never mind that our country is about one fiftieth the size of theirs with totally different climate and geography, and things just don't work the same way. They should listen to us! Of course, they didn't listen to us 200 years ago when we tried to tell them what to do, which wasn't so good, 'cause if we had kept them as a colony, boy. We'd be sittin' pretty NOW. All the free cable and MaccyD's we could handle!

On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea. I mean, do we want a Queen who weighs 20 stone and her deadbeat son who calls everyone 'dawg?"

And have you seen how FAT some of them are? Disgusting. There are NO fat people in England.

I hate yanks. They're so opinionated!

There you go gang. Hope you have as much fun reading it as I did writing it. I'm off to make cupcakes for my daughter and her friends. And no. None of them are fat. I could stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm going to eat a cupcake anyway. Cinnamon with cream cheese frosting. Life is short. Too short to spend it fighting. Or dieting. ;)

(And Teabag is absolutely right!)

:) Sierra

PingPang, like most of the young lads and lasses nowadays they come out of school with hardly any qualifications, my fiance didnt do well at school and so would end up in a dead end job stacking shelves for Netto, that isnt what he wanted in his life so he gave the army a go, even though there are good points which he likes, it is stable, good monthly income, a roof over his head, food everyday, it isnt what he thought, especially as we are a couple and it is hard work having to leave for months on end, but he has givin it a try and gone through 6months fighting in Iraq which is more than you can say isnt it??

i'd hardly call army life stable if he's out in iraq

if when you say that's more than i can say you mean he's done more time in a combat zone than me then yes, but i don't see it as something to admire someone for or something to be proud of, so i'm glad it's "more than i can say"

i'd rather be in a dead end job than in a death dealing job or dead, but currently i'm training to be a mental health nurse, which i think contributes to society more than throwing your life away as cannon fodder, allowing yourself to be a vehicle of the new world order, adding to the suffering of the people of iraq

if he didn't do well at school then he could always gp back to college, get himself a trade - he could do plastering, electrical work, brickieing, landscape gardening - there's loads of things to do without giving yourself up to be used as a puppet by the manipulators, and you can be a success without loads of qualifications

i realise that you'll be missing him and am not having a go at someone you love

the americans joined in because of pearl harbour & nothing else.they were as much in bed with the nazi's and the fascists as anyone else.
if japan had not been a german ally they wouldn't have ever got into it.

if you compare the changes in politics and society that happened in germany pre ww2 and the usa in the last decade or so, there are striking parallels

If it had not been for the wily old fox Churchill the USA may not have joined in either World War. From what I gather it was his selctive release of information that allowed them to be attacked in both conflicts, thereby giving them good reason to join us.
Make no mistake the Yanks wanted to help us both times, but had to have a reason to join us.

yeah, check out some of the generally unmentioned background to pearl harbour - another setup like 911

roosevelt wanted to join in ww2 but needed something to happen to change the minds of the public en masse

God I hate those yanks. Who do they think they are? Always claiming to have saved the world. What's with them? Always trying to take credit from others.

Who needs 'em? I can't wait until China and India take over. Of course, there is that small matter of China executing prisoners and selling their organs, and India and China do make a business out of selling off female infants because of their backwards, misogynistic, male dominated societies, and my job will prolly be outsourced to India because some Asian person who used to be a surgeon but who can make more money answering the phones in a Calcutta call center will do my job for 2 pounds a week, but that's OK. As long as they're not yanks!!!

God. Can yanks get ANYTHING right? America is the most evil, corrupt nation on earth and George Bush is the anti-christ. They've never contributed anything to the rest of the world. They suck up all the resources and don't leave anything for anyone else. Just yesterday, I went to have a bath and there was no water! The missus says it was because of the plumbing, but that's a lie! I KNOW it was because some yank had used up all the water. Selfish gits.

AND they make movies that TOTALLY twist the facts around to make America look better than it is! Of course, they are American movies made by Americans for entertainment purposes only, and NOT documentaries. AND their "documentaries" are anything but. Stupid yanks. They really do have everything backwards, don't they?

In fact, I'm going to stop seeing American films altogether!
And playing American video games too!! And eating American food. And wearing American clothing. And listening to American music. And watching American television shows. I promise I will. Maybe just until George Lucas comes out with another Star Wars film. You have to start small, right? One thing at a time mate.

And the hole in the ozone is all THEIR fault!

I say, let Iran have nukes. In fact, free nukes for everyone! Morally bankrupt yanks, hogging all the nukes and satellites for themselves! Who are they to tell Iran what to do? That nice man whose in charge over there just wants nukes to use for power. It is a little troubling the way he always looks like he needs a bath. And to take his medication. I guess he's ok as long as you don't look him in the eye.

AND they have the death penalty. Not in all 50 states, but they have the death penalty in some of them!!! We should definitely impose OUR idea of how they should do things and scream like scalded cats when they don't listen! Never mind that our country is about one fiftieth the size of theirs with totally different climate and geography, and things just don't work the same way. They should listen to us! Of course, they didn't listen to us 200 years ago when we tried to tell them what to do, which wasn't so good, 'cause if we had kept them as a colony, boy. We'd be sittin' pretty NOW. All the free cable and MaccyD's we could handle!

On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea. I mean, do we want a Queen who weighs 20 stone and her deadbeat son who calls everyone 'dawg?"

And have you seen how FAT some of them are? Disgusting. There are NO fat people in England.

I hate yanks. They're so opinionated!

There you go gang. Hope you have as much fun reading it as I did writing it. I'm off to make cupcakes for my daughter and her friends. And no. None of them are fat. I could stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm going to eat a cupcake anyway. Cinnamon with cream cheese frosting. Life is short. Too short to spend it fighting. Or dieting. ;)

(And Teabag is absolutely right!)

:) Sierra

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Common sense prevails................................

God I hate those yanks. Who do they think they are? Always claiming to have saved the world. What's with them? Always trying to take credit from others.

Who needs 'em? I can't wait until China and India take over. Of course, there is that small matter of China executing prisoners and selling their organs, and India and China do make a business out of selling off female infants because of their backwards, misogynistic, male dominated societies, and my job will prolly be outsourced to India because some Asian person who used to be a surgeon but who can make more money answering the phones in a Calcutta call center will do my job for 2 pounds a week, but that's OK. As long as they're not yanks!!!

God. Can yanks get ANYTHING right? America is the most evil, corrupt nation on earth and George Bush is the anti-christ. They've never contributed anything to the rest of the world. They suck up all the resources and don't leave anything for anyone else. Just yesterday, I went to have a bath and there was no water! The missus says it was because of the plumbing, but that's a lie! I KNOW it was because some yank had used up all the water. Selfish gits.

AND they make movies that TOTALLY twist the facts around to make America look better than it is! Of course, they are American movies made by Americans for entertainment purposes only, and NOT documentaries. AND their "documentaries" are anything but. Stupid yanks. They really do have everything backwards, don't they?

In fact, I'm going to stop seeing American films altogether!
And playing American video games too!! And eating American food. And wearing American clothing. And listening to American music. And watching American television shows. I promise I will. Maybe just until George Lucas comes out with another Star Wars film. You have to start small, right? One thing at a time mate.

And the hole in the ozone is all THEIR fault!

I say, let Iran have nukes. In fact, free nukes for everyone! Morally bankrupt yanks, hogging all the nukes and satellites for themselves! Who are they to tell Iran what to do? That nice man whose in charge over there just wants nukes to use for power. It is a little troubling the way he always looks like he needs a bath. And to take his medication. I guess he's ok as long as you don't look him in the eye.

AND they have the death penalty. Not in all 50 states, but they have the death penalty in some of them!!! We should definitely impose OUR idea of how they should do things and scream like scalded cats when they don't listen! Never mind that our country is about one fiftieth the size of theirs with totally different climate and geography, and things just don't work the same way. They should listen to us! Of course, they didn't listen to us 200 years ago when we tried to tell them what to do, which wasn't so good, 'cause if we had kept them as a colony, boy. We'd be sittin' pretty NOW. All the free cable and MaccyD's we could handle!

On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea. I mean, do we want a Queen who weighs 20 stone and her deadbeat son who calls everyone 'dawg?"

And have you seen how FAT some of them are? Disgusting. There are NO fat people in England.

I hate yanks. They're so opinionated!

There you go gang. Hope you have as much fun reading it as I did writing it. I'm off to make cupcakes for my daughter and her friends. And no. None of them are fat. I could stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm going to eat a cupcake anyway. Cinnamon with cream cheese frosting. Life is short. Too short to spend it fighting. Or dieting. ;)

(And Teabag is absolutely right!)

:) Sierra

Post of the day...I don't know what the hell it means but you've got my vote sister!

At the end of the day, decisive action against Hitler in 1935 - the sort taken by Bush and Blair against Afghanistan and Iraq more than 65 years later, .

build 'em up to knock 'em down

usa supplied arms and training to afghanistan & iraq in recent decades

then they turn it about and invade 'em

did you enjoy the show? i hope so, it cost a lot

i'd hardly call army life stable if he's out in iraq
if when you say that's more than i can say you mean he's done more time in a combat zone than me then yes, but i don't see it as something to admire someone for or something to be proud of, so i'm glad it's "more than i can say"
i'd rather be in a dead end job than in a death dealing job or dead, but currently i'm training to be a mental health nurse, which i think contributes to society more than throwing your life away as cannon fodder, allowing yourself to be a vehicle of the new world order, adding to the suffering of the people of iraq
if he didn't do well at school then he could always gp back to college, get himself a trade - he could do plastering, electrical work, brickieing, landscape gardening - there's loads of things to do without giving yourself up to be used as a puppet by the manipulators, and you can be a success without loads of qualifications
i realise that you'll be missing him and am not having a go at someone you love
And until you've been to Iraq, seen what it's like, or even from the comfort of the UK studied the Middle East a little, you will continue to miss the point as widely as you just have.

I suppose somebody has to deal with the loonies (undermenschen) but the society we have owes a vast amount more to people who have laid down their lives in war than it does to professional drool-wipers.

To gain a better understanding of Iraq, you need to read more than Socialist Worker.

And until you've been to Iraq, seen what it's like, or even from the comfort of the UK studied the Middle East a little, you will continue to miss the point as widely as you just have.

I suppose somebody has to deal with the loonies (undermenschen) but the society we have owes a vast amount more to people who have laid down their lives in war than it does to professional drool-wipers.

To gain a better understanding of Iraq, you need to read more than Socialist Worker.

Troll alert:hihi:

As for Churchill releasing information to encourage attacks on the Americans – one of the sadder conspiracy theories.
Come on Im on your side in this one. You know the score with Churchill, he was cuter than the cutest fox. If ever at any time the World lay in one mans hands, it was his.
That is not to say he was not responsible for some of the worst crimes against his own people, Tonypandy or a name something like that was where he turned armed soldiers against the welsh miners wasnt it.
Once a soldier always a soldier

And until you've been to Iraq, seen what it's like, or even from the comfort of the UK studied the Middle East a little, you will continue to miss the point as widely as you just have.

I suppose somebody has to deal with the loonies (undermenschen) but the society we have owes a vast amount more to people who have laid down their lives in war than it does to professional drool-wipers.

To gain a better understanding of Iraq, you need to read more than Socialist Worker.

i have studied the middle east a little, tho i haven't been there and don't intend to either

so just what is the point according to bartfast?

i think you're missing the point

why does society owe anything to people who have been dragged into wars by political liars? i can see why you might think this, but the cannon fodder are merely pawns - wars are manipulated into being to bring about change - being unfortunate enough to get dragged into the mess doesn't mean we owe anything to anyone except to learn that you can't fight for peace, you can only peace for peace

and quite honestly i've never read socialist worker my whole life - i agree that to get a better understanding of iraq you need to read more than that, also you need to stop watching mainstream news media

(undermenschen)

I think that should be 'untermenschen'

from http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

14 Points of fascism

In his original article, "Fascism Anyone?", Laurence Britt (interview) compared the regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet and identified 14 characteristics common to those fascist regimes. This page is a collection of news articles dating from the start of the Bush presidency divided into topics relating to each of the 14 points of fascism. Further analysis of American Fascism done by the POAC can be read here.


1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc

4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions

9.) Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14.) Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Concur about the points of fascism...anything on that link about boredom and trolls?

Pingpang,
It is impossible to reason with some people, its better some times to humour them and they will calm down.
Mention has been made of a newspaper the 'Socialist Worker' in a slagging off sense and you have denied reading it, dont worry, neither has bartfarst. In fact I doubt he has ever read anything in his life that could enlighten him.
Stay cool, take the **** a bit and let it be like water off a ducks back.

God I hate those yanks. Who do they think they are? Always claiming to have saved the world. What's with them? Always trying to take credit from others.

Who needs 'em? I can't wait until China and India take over. Of course, there is that small matter of China executing prisoners and selling their organs, and India and China do make a business out of selling off female infants because of their backwards, misogynistic, male dominated societies, and my job will prolly be outsourced to India because some Asian person who used to be a surgeon but who can make more money answering the phones in a Calcutta call center will do my job for 2 pounds a week, but that's OK. As long as they're not yanks!!!

God. Can yanks get ANYTHING right? America is the most evil, corrupt nation on earth and George Bush is the anti-christ. They've never contributed anything to the rest of the world. They suck up all the resources and don't leave anything for anyone else. Just yesterday, I went to have a bath and there was no water! The missus says it was because of the plumbing, but that's a lie! I KNOW it was because some yank had used up all the water. Selfish gits.

AND they make movies that TOTALLY twist the facts around to make America look better than it is! Of course, they are American movies made by Americans for entertainment purposes only, and NOT documentaries. AND their "documentaries" are anything but. Stupid yanks. They really do have everything backwards, don't they?

In fact, I'm going to stop seeing American films altogether!
And playing American video games too!! And eating American food. And wearing American clothing. And listening to American music. And watching American television shows. I promise I will. Maybe just until George Lucas comes out with another Star Wars film. You have to start small, right? One thing at a time mate.

And the hole in the ozone is all THEIR fault!

I say, let Iran have nukes. In fact, free nukes for everyone! Morally bankrupt yanks, hogging all the nukes and satellites for themselves! Who are they to tell Iran what to do? That nice man whose in charge over there just wants nukes to use for power. It is a little troubling the way he always looks like he needs a bath. And to take his medication. I guess he's ok as long as you don't look him in the eye.

AND they have the death penalty. Not in all 50 states, but they have the death penalty in some of them!!! We should definitely impose OUR idea of how they should do things and scream like scalded cats when they don't listen! Never mind that our country is about one fiftieth the size of theirs with totally different climate and geography, and things just don't work the same way. They should listen to us! Of course, they didn't listen to us 200 years ago when we tried to tell them what to do, which wasn't so good, 'cause if we had kept them as a colony, boy. We'd be sittin' pretty NOW. All the free cable and MaccyD's we could handle!

On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea. I mean, do we want a Queen who weighs 20 stone and her deadbeat son who calls everyone 'dawg?"

And have you seen how FAT some of them are? Disgusting. There are NO fat people in England.

I hate yanks. They're so opinionated!

There you go gang. Hope you have as much fun reading it as I did writing it. I'm off to make cupcakes for my daughter and her friends. And no. None of them are fat. I could stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm going to eat a cupcake anyway. Cinnamon with cream cheese frosting. Life is short. Too short to spend it fighting. Or dieting. ;)

(And Teabag is absolutely right!)

:) Sierra
Er, the same China which butchered over 3,000 of its students in Tiananmen Square a mere 17 years ago, because they wanted a democratic China and dared to build a model of the Statue of Liberty in the middle of that square. Somehow, it might not be the best idea to organise a student protest in China, methinks.

Where were the student protests in Britain when that atrocity took place? Not much solidarity with their suffering Chinese brothers and sisters back then, was there. Of course, it is far easier to slur Bush and take in the antisemitic Galloway bromides than condemn that Politburo which suddenly decided that the flower of Chinese youth needed a hefty dose of weedkiller, sprayed through the business end of a couple of hundred Kalashnikovs.

And lastly, isn't it funny how the most pro-American folks on the planet live in India, of all places.

And as a nice afterthought, if your Islamofascist buddies get their way, you won't be listening to any music of ANY description.

I did not use the word **** in the above post!

Pingpang,
It is impossible to reason with some people, its better some times to humour them and they will calm down.
Mention has been made of a newspaper the 'Socialist Worker' in a slagging off sense and you have denied reading it, dont worry, neither has bartfarst. In fact I doubt he has ever read anything in his life that could enlighten him.
Stay cool, take the **** a bit and let it be like water off a ducks back.

lol

you're right, of course

Does your whole knowledge of 20th century history come from watching Hollywood war movies?
America didn't want to know for the vast majority of the 2nd world war - they only came in at the end and took all the credit.
Still, your knowledge of the 20th century must come from watching the Teletubbies.

Er, the same China which butchered over 3,000 of its students in Tiananmen Square a mere 17 years ago, because they wanted a democratic China and dared to build a model of the Statue of Liberty in the middle of that square. Somehow, it might not be the best idea to organise a student protest in China, methinks.

Where were the student protests in Britain when that atrocity took place? Not much solidarity with their suffering Chinese brothers and sisters back then, was there. Of course, it is far easier to slur Bush and take in the antisemitic Galloway bromides than condemn that Politburo which suddenly decided that the flower of Chinese youth needed a hefty dose of weedkiller, sprayed through the business end of a couple of hundred Kalashnikovs.

And lastly, isn't it funny how the most pro-American folks on the planet live in India, of all places.

And as a nice afterthought, if your Islamofascist buddies get their way, you won't be listening to any music of ANY description.

firecracker, I was just kidding! I'm an American. I live in California. I was trying to be funny. I thought the thread needed a little humor. I totally agree with you about China. I saw this (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/) on PBS and could NOT believe how the chinese government censors everything before their citizens have a chance to see it. Terrible.

:) Sierra

:hihi: Well it had me laughing Sierra:hihi: Good post !

i have studied the middle east a little, tho i haven't been there and don't intend to either

so just what is the point according to bartfast?

i think you're missing the point

why does society owe anything to people who have been dragged into wars by political liars? i can see why you might think this, but the cannon fodder are merely pawns - wars are manipulated into being to bring about change - being unfortunate enough to get dragged into the mess doesn't mean we owe anything to anyone except to learn that you can't fight for peace, you can only peace for peace

and quite honestly i've never read socialist worker my whole life - i agree that to get a better understanding of iraq you need to read more than that, also you need to stop watching mainstream news media
At least you’re honest enough to acknowledge not having actual experience of the Middle East – but you must realise that, like most contributors, your opinions can only be based on what the tabloids choose to tell you.

I’m interested in your view that society ‘doesn’t owe anything to people dragged into wars, and that being unfortunate enough to get dragged into the mess doesn't mean we owe anything to anyone’.

Can you honestly apply this to all of the people who died between 1939 and 1945 to prevent Hitler’s attempt to turn the whole of Europe into his Third Reich?
When Britain was really clinging on in the early years of the war, fighting a war of national survival, can you say that you owe nothing to the people who gave their lives so that you, and the rest of the liberal do-gooders in this country and world, can freely voice your opinions the way you do? I would have thought that you owed them quite a lot – I do not imagine that you would relish living in a Britain with 60 years’ legacy of becoming part of a Nazi state.

There was a very moving piece of prose written in the trenches of WW1 by a man who was morally a conscientious objector, but had decided not to resist his drafting.
It went along the lines of: “How could I remain in the comfort and safety of my own home, knowing that better men than I were laying down their lives to preserve that safety”.

You owe every member of the Armed Forces who has been killed, maimed or injured representing his Crown the thanks that should come from somebody who lives in this British society that is the product of military sacrifice over the last few centuries.

Im getting bored of this now, the point i am making is you SHOULD NOT slag off our soliders because they have been sent out to Iraq, these lads have a job to do, and even though they dont believe in the war, they HAVE to go, doesnt mean they want to.

If your going to slag down our soliders, are you going to do the same about those 5 soldiers who were killed at the weekend? i think not!!!

and your question about college, you HAVE to have qualifications, more often than not a C or above before you get into college, and as he hardly had any qualifications, his courses were very very limited.

My fiance wanted to join the army since he was a small child, but now he has done it, he doesnt like it, hates the life and having to go out to a warzone jsut because Tony Blair thinks there is money init for him!!! we have been together nearly 3years now and are wanting to settle down buy a house, but we cant for at least another 1yr4months because he HAS to do his time, there is none of that buying himself out larky no more!!!

Im not having a go PingPong, but he is my fiance and i know what its like and what hes been through yeah? it aint easy and i dont like people slagging him off for something he is unable to change!!!!!

I don't have a problem at all with our armed forces, quite the reverse. I do have a problem with the scoundrels who sent them to Iraq, not one of whom has ever served a day in the armed forces or indeed has ever put himself in harms way. I doubt very much whether Blair's reckless enthusiasm for half-baked foreign military adventures would have been anywhere near as strong had he been forced to send his own sons there. Its obviously easy for Blair to be resolute when the lives of others are at stake.

My 'take' on Blair is that he is such a self-centred, preening egotist that he really does not care about the lives of our troops - except when the deaths hit the headlines and he is forced to explain himself (but that is about as far as it goes).

I don't have a problem at all with our armed forces, quite the reverse. I do have a problem with the scoundrels who sent them to Iraq, not one of whom has ever served a day in the armed forces or indeed has ever put himself in harms way. I doubt very much whether Blair's reckless enthusiasm for half-baked foreign military adventures would have been anywhere near as strong had he been forced to send his own sons there. Its obviously easy for Blair to be resolute when the lives of others are at stake.

My 'take' on Blair is that he is such a self-centred, preening egotist that he really does not care about the lives of our troops - except when the deaths hit the headlines and he is forced to explain himself (but that is about as far as it goes).


Well said :thumbsup:

Z

.

My 'take' on Blair is that he is such a self-centred, preening egotist that he really does not care about the lives of our troops - except when the deaths hit the headlines and he is forced to explain himself (but that is about as far as it goes).

it'd be good if he was forced to explain himself, but like most politicians when the pressure's on, he squirms and doesn't say much of meaning

keep up the good work lads (and ladettes)

At least you’re honest enough to acknowledge not having actual experience of the Middle East – but you must realise that, like most contributors, your opinions can only be based on what the tabloids choose to tell you.

I’m interested in your view that society ‘doesn’t owe anything to people dragged into wars, and that being unfortunate enough to get dragged into the mess doesn't mean we owe anything to anyone’.

Can you honestly apply this to all of the people who died between 1939 and 1945 to prevent Hitler’s attempt to turn the whole of Europe into his Third Reich?
When Britain was really clinging on in the early years of the war, fighting a war of national survival, can you say that you owe nothing to the people who gave their lives so that you, and the rest of the liberal do-gooders in this country and world, can freely voice your opinions the way you do? I would have thought that you owed them quite a lot – I do not imagine that you would relish living in a Britain with 60 years’ legacy of becoming part of a Nazi state.

There was a very moving piece of prose written in the trenches of WW1 by a man who was morally a conscientious objector, but had decided not to resist his drafting.
It went along the lines of: “How could I remain in the comfort and safety of my own home, knowing that better men than I were laying down their lives to preserve that safety”.

You owe every member of the Armed Forces who has been killed, maimed or injured representing his Crown the thanks that should come from somebody who lives in this British society that is the product of military sacrifice over the last few centuries.


for a start i tend to avoid reading the tabloids, and i certainly don't take what they say to be anywhere near the whole truth - they generally give a soiled version of a fragment of the truth - remember that they are owned by similar people who own the government and so the mainstream media is used to paint the picture they want us to see

i apply the statement you're interested in to everyone who has ever fought in any war

that sounds quite heartless, and don't get me wrong, i understand some of the sacrifices they have made and feel for any loss of life or injury

it's just that i see the political picture from a different angle to you - wars are created to manipulate change - as i see it, the nazi stream is alive and well, and still closing in on us - at a higher political level ww2 was fought between covert facism and overt facism - overt facism seemed to be beaten, and we were sold the idea that we are free from the nazis

this laid the way for covert fasism to slowly develop, with the people believing that they don't live in a facist controlled world

did you read the 14 points of facism i posted before?

Not got time to plough through all the posts on this thread, but this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1769776,00.html) makes for very interesting reading on the way of life for Iraqis before/after Sadaam.

As for our soldiers, I have a great deal of respect for them and the incredibly hard job they do, but I have very little respect for the people who sent them there in the first place.

excellent article - unsurprising but insightful

eg

To show the negative effects of these developments on women, Zeina travels to Basra. It will not come as news to those who have followed developments in southern Iraq that women are being forced to wear the hijab and prevented from living their lives freely. But it brings these developments home when we see young women and their families talking about being sent bullets and death threats because they played sport or did not wear a headscarf. As Zeina emphasises, this kind of experience is new to most women in Iraq, who enjoyed economic and social freedom before the occupation. "A while ago, I was looking at photographs of my aunt in college in the 60s, wearing pants and sleeveless tops, playing sports in the college yard; and then I looked at the photographs of the women in college today, and they are covered in black from head to toe, their faces also covered."

Zeina says the responsibility for these developments squarely at the feet of the occupation - it has given sectarianism the opportunity to flourish. She simply laughs when I ask her whether she feels grateful for the democracy that America has given Iraq. "Democracy? What democracy? We do not have democracy. This democracy that Bush talks about - it is a completely empty structure, based on sectarian and ethnic interests. How can you have democracy when you are afraid that your life will be threatened, or your husband will be killed if you express yourself freely? It is a bad joke."

Despite the dangers, she is eager to communicate the reality as she sees it, and she would like us to listen: "I do want people in Britain to understand that the occupation of Iraq is not in the interests of Iraq or Britain. Your soldiers are getting killed and nothing is better for the Iraqi people. On the contrary, the situation is going from bad to worse every day, especially for women"

At least you’re honest enough to acknowledge not having actual experience of the Middle East – but you must realise that, like most contributors, your opinions can only be based on what the tabloids choose to tell you.

I’m interested in your view that society ‘doesn’t owe anything to people dragged into wars, and that being unfortunate enough to get dragged into the mess doesn't mean we owe anything to anyone’.

Can you honestly apply this to all of the people who died between 1939 and 1945 to prevent Hitler’s attempt to turn the whole of Europe into his Third Reich?
When Britain was really clinging on in the early years of the war, fighting a war of national survival, can you say that you owe nothing to the people who gave their lives so that you, and the rest of the liberal do-gooders in this country and world, can freely voice your opinions the way you do? I would have thought that you owed them quite a lot – I do not imagine that you would relish living in a Britain with 60 years’ legacy of becoming part of a Nazi state.

There was a very moving piece of prose written in the trenches of WW1 by a man who was morally a conscientious objector, but had decided not to resist his drafting.
It went along the lines of: “How could I remain in the comfort and safety of my own home, knowing that better men than I were laying down their lives to preserve that safety”.

You owe every member of the Armed Forces who has been killed, maimed or injured representing his Crown the thanks that should come from somebody who lives in this British society that is the product of military sacrifice over the last few centuries.
Absolutely right. And folks moan about the number of troops lost in Iraq, but the terrorists have lost around 40,000 but their belief in their eventual victory remains unshaken, despite losing 15 or 20 of their number for every coalition soldier killed. And why is the terrorists belief in their eventual victory unshaken? Because they believe that the protesters in the West will save their bacon and give them victory by default. They see us as paper tigers - not our troops but our population. And just imagine if we had to fight a war like World War I again. Back then, we lost over 900,000 Armed Forces personnel with a further 2.1 million wounded. In just a few hours on the first day of the Somme, we suffered 21,000 dead and 35,000 wounded. And soldiers weren't joking when they couldn't decide what they were most afraid of - the mud, the rats, the Germans or their own officers.

Absolutely right. And folks moan about the number of troops lost in Iraq, but the terrorists have lost around 40,000 but their belief in their eventual victory remains unshaken, despite losing 15 or 20 of their number for every coalition soldier killed. And why is the terrorists belief in their eventual victory unshaken? Because they believe that the protesters in the West will save their bacon and give them victory by default. They see us as paper tigers - not our troops but our population. And just imagine if we had to fight a war like World War I again. Back then, we lost over 900,000 Armed Forces personnel with a further 2.1 million wounded. In just a few hours on the first day of the Somme, we suffered 21,000 dead and 35,000 wounded. And soldiers weren't joking when they couldn't decide what they were most afraid of - the mud, the rats, the Germans or their own officers.

Exactly. Lets keep sending our trops over to die, until the job is done. Either there will be none of them left, of nobody left willing to fight.

I am willing to loose at least another million troops for this cause. To keep us safe. I am not willing to fight, but i am willing to send other to fight, just so long as i don't have to see dead bodies on TV.

Lets get the draft going again. Put the protesters in jail. Kill the hippies. Pink stars on the backs of gays, and start our own super race.

It's not like legitamising the cause of the IRA gave us peace or anything.

excellent article - unsurprising but insightful

eg

To show the negative effects of these developments on women, Zeina travels to Basra. It will not come as news to those who have followed developments in southern Iraq that women are being forced to wear the hijab and prevented from living their lives freely. But it brings these developments home when we see young women and their families talking about being sent bullets and death threats because they played sport or did not wear a headscarf. As Zeina emphasises, this kind of experience is new to most women in Iraq, who enjoyed economic and social freedom before the occupation. "A while ago, I was looking at photographs of my aunt in college in the 60s, wearing pants and sleeveless tops, playing sports in the college yard; and then I looked at the photographs of the women in college today, and they are covered in black from head to toe, their faces also covered."

Zeina says the responsibility for these developments squarely at the feet of the occupation - it has given sectarianism the opportunity to flourish. She simply laughs when I ask her whether she feels grateful for the democracy that America has given Iraq. "Democracy? What democracy? We do not have democracy. This democracy that Bush talks about - it is a completely empty structure, based on sectarian and ethnic interests. How can you have democracy when you are afraid that your life will be threatened, or your husband will be killed if you express yourself freely? It is a bad joke."

Despite the dangers, she is eager to communicate the reality as she sees it, and she would like us to listen: "I do want people in Britain to understand that the occupation of Iraq is not in the interests of Iraq or Britain. Your soldiers are getting killed and nothing is better for the Iraqi people. On the contrary, the situation is going from bad to worse every day, especially for women"
No mention of the plastic shredders, or the 1.5 million killed under Saddam Hussein, but the real fault of what is happening in Iraq is down to ISLAM which the Guardianista and the rest of the mainstream media will never admit, and doesn't it prove the validity of this Winston Churchill snippet “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men". Islam is as Islam does. That is what Muslim countries are like. They're mostly impoverished charnel houses where life is cheap, but nothing cheapens life like the Koran, Sira and hadith. Would Iraq be like that if it were still Christian? Somehow I doubt it, and let this be a warning as to what will happen in Europe should it become Islamic.

Our soldiers should be used as defenders of this country - NOT International peacekeepers in a problem miles away from home that should not concern this country.

Having said that, anyone slagging off UK troops doing a horrible job in a situation most of them would rather not be in should be ashamed of themselves.