Just a step on from Lickzz thread about the rail crash at Reading.
They reckon it may have been suicide.
I think they should also put on the death certificate, Murderer.
He knew that others would be killed or at least maimed due to his selfish actions.
All he had to do was stand in front of the train and that would be the end.
End result, I man who got his wish and one traumatised train driver.
Now we have a dead train driver, 6 dead passengers including a six year old girl and 150 needing hospital treatment, most who will bear the mental scars crashes like these inflict all because of one selfish crazy maniac hell bent on causing destruction.

i agree with you IF it was suicide. There a plenty of ways to kill yourself without hurting others, and if it was suicide he must have relised others would get hurt so it seems to me that he must have wanted others to be hurt.

Are you classing some one who is going to commit suicide as a normal sane clear thinking individual. Because a person in deep depression who is going to commit suicide probably could not tell you if its light or dark outside, only thing on his mind is the fact he doesn't want to live any more. He doesn't or carnt think about anything else, about the family hes leaving behind, about people who love him. He has only one intension. He is having a mental breakdown which is an illness. If a man has an heart attack while driving because its classed as a illness and kills some one is that murder. Anyone who commits suicide is suffering an illness of the brain. It is tragic and horrible but I wouldn't class it as murder.

Originally posted by Bikertec
Are you classing some one who is going to commit suicide as a normal sane clear thinking individual. Because a person in deep depression who is going to commit suicide probably could not tell you if its light or dark outside, only thing on his mind is the fact he doesn't want to live any more. He doesn't or carnt think about anything else, about the family hes leaving behind, about people who love him. He has only one intension. He is having a mental breakdown which is an illness. If a man has an heart attack while driving because its classed as a illness and kills some one is that murder. Anyone who commits suicide is suffering an illness of the brain. It is tragic and horrible but I wouldn't class it as murder.

Surely you are not trying to make an excuse for this 'murderer':loopy:

Its not an excuse its a illness. your thinking of him as a sane man, this man had a mental illness.

Originally posted by Bikertec
Its not an excuse its a illness. your thinking of him as a sane man, this man had a mental illness.

Ohh, that makes it alright then:suspect:

No it doesn't make it alright. But maybe you would feel better if we had everyone in a mental hospital put down just incase they got out and hurt someone.

People who are 'inside' mental hospitals do not harm people on trains, FACT!.
I am not making light of depression but this c*** could have easily taken an overdose/jumped off a cliff or plugged a hose in to his exhaust!. NO, what he decided to do is drive god knows how far,park on a level crossing and wait for his moment of glory.

Originally posted by Bikertec
Are you classing some one who is going to commit suicide as a normal sane clear thinking individual. Because a person in deep depression who is going to commit suicide probably could not tell you if its light or dark outside, only thing on his mind is the fact he doesn't want to live any more. He doesn't or carnt think about anything else, about the family hes leaving behind, about people who love him. He has only one intension. He is having a mental breakdown which is an illness. If a man has an heart attack while driving because its classed as a illness and kills some one is that murder. Anyone who commits suicide is suffering an illness of the brain. It is tragic and horrible but I wouldn't class it as murder. I understand where your coming from Bikertec and I think you are wrong.
If you have a heart attack in a car then its accidental and unpredictable.
This guy knew enough to put his car on a train line at a level crossing which means he knew exactly what he was doing and would know the devistation he would cause.
Not only that, but he decided to go out " in style" knowing his suicide would make headline news making him out to be some kind of martah.
I bet you he has marriage problems and wanted to show the world poor old me, she don't love me anymore.
He gets no sympaphy from me what so ever.

Having wrestled myself with mild clinical depression I appreciate what a debillitating illness it can be. Havng said that, to me suicide is something that would never have crossed my mind. I was bought up with the 'traditional' view that suicide was spiritually wrong and also that it was a selfish solution to your problems because of the impact on the people around you.

Should this prove to have been some sort of bizarre way of committing suicide then, depressed or not, he was possibly one of the most selfish people to have walked the face of the planet.

Unless you're TOTALLY alone in the world and manage to kill yourself in such a way that no-one has to pick up the pieces (literally and metaphorically) then suicide is a selfish act. Whilst appreciating that people can be pushed a long way by their depression, there are always places to go if you need to talk - Samaritans, counselling, heck - get yourself sectioned if you think you can't resist the urge to self destruction.

And if you do decide to kill yourself then there are various ways in which it can be achieved without some stupid 'blaze of glory, look at me, ma, top of the world' selfishness.

Joe

You cannot begin to imagine the workings of someones mind who has mental illness. It isn't logical at all to someone who hasn't suffered it.

Even if he had just stood in front of it the train may still have derailed. The train driver has a decision as to whether put on the brakes (and risk derailment) or carry on and plow into the person.

It is selfish if the person was rational, but he obviously wasn't so it is tragic.

Having personal experience of this happening I can tell you that the person involved was in no way selfish, just very ill.

Obvously ifit was suicide it is avery selfish thing to do.

However "murder" is the name of the crime not the act. I think anyone who is out of their mind enough to want to kill themselves may well come under the description of diminished responsibility.

Thats not a defence of something that is obvisouly very wrong. Just an acknowledgement that it isn't a simple issue.

As we have seen with suicide bombings, it is very difficult to legislate for people who have very little regard for their own lives, beacuse death is seen as the ultimate punishment possible in our society, so how can you punish someone further?

Hi bonny,

Well, I see what you're saying but beg to differ - he didn't have to involv anyone else in the act of his death. There's a certain amount of pre-meditation in any suicide - if he was so determined why not just drive the car in to a wall or a tree?

As for standing in front of the train - he'd have traumatised the driver beyond belief whatever happened.

I'm sorry - I genuinely believe that if soemone can think clearly enough to drive a car between the barriers, and up the railway line with the knowledge that a train will soon come and finish him off, he's aware enough of what he's doing to be viewed as selfish.

My own views of suicide are probably coloured by the attempted suicide of an acquaintance at university over a relationship issue. The resultant mess caused by his act, even though not successful, impacted on the lives of about half a dozen people around him in quite unhappy ways.

Joe

It's impossible for us reasonably sane people to imagine the mindset of some one like this. It's a normal reaction to think "murdering scumbag"......I did myself. It's quite possible he was so disturbed that he never considered the involvment of others. I also thought "why not take a bottle of pills and whiskey to bed?" but that's being rational isn't it.
I'm not making excuses and I don't expect that he shouldn't be hated by the relatives of the deceased because I certainly would. For all that, this was probably one very sick individual who we can't possibly begin to understand unless we've experienced powerful suicidal urges ourselves.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hi bonny,

Well, I see what you're saying but beg to differ - he didn't have to involv anyone else in the act of his death. There's a certain amount of pre-meditation in any suicide - if he was so determined why not just drive the car in to a wall or a tree?

As for standing in front of the train - he'd have traumatised the driver beyond belief whatever happened.

I'm sorry - I genuinely believe that if soemone can think clearly enough to drive a car between the barriers, and up the railway line with the knowledge that a train will soon come and finish him off, he's aware enough of what he's doing to be viewed as selfish.

My own views of suicide are probably coloured by the attempted suicide of an acquaintance at university over a relationship issue. The resultant mess caused by his act, even though not successful, impacted on the lives of about half a dozen people around him in quite unhappy ways.

Joe

I'm sorry to hear that Joe.

I'm sure you will understand though that not every suicidal person is the same and has the same thoughts. We cannot rationalise it.

maybe he had already taken copious amounts of drugs, alcohol, whatever?

In my case the person was already ill and very inibriated also. To take your own life especially premeditate it and carry it out, how can you be of sane mind?

It is pure TRAGIC

Originally posted by bonny
I'm sorry to hear that Joe.

I'm sure you will understand though that not every suicidal person is the same and has the same thoughts. We cannot rationalise it.

maybe he had already taken copious amounts of drugs, alcohol, whatever?

In my case the person was already ill and very inibriated also. To take your own life especially premeditate it and carry it out, how can you be of sane mind?

It is pure TRAGIC I don't deny that this guy was ill and as Joe has already stated he had the sense to park his car on the line.
If I wanted to end it all I would make sure I did,nt take anyone with me.
I just see you making excuse after excuse that its alright to do what he did and you even feel sorry for him.
Don't feel sorry for him, save your pity for those on the train who had there lives taken away because of some selfish suicide maniac, which is what he was, who have left families and loved ones and for the families who expected there loved ones to come home but never will.
This is not about depression, and suicide.
Its about killing inocent people without regard, thats what this all about, just ask the families of the victims if they care about his depression and suicidal tendancy, he took away the only thing that mattered to them and now there dead.
No excuses, he's a murderer.
I suppose you feel sorry for the Physcophrenic ( spelling ) who killed someone because he was ill.
Poor old dear did'nt know what he was doing so give him a couple of years in a hospital and let him out to interegrate with the community to cause havoc again. :
:loopy:

Originally posted by Cycleracer
I don't deny that this guy was ill and as Joe has already stated he had the sense to park his car on the line.
If I wanted to end it all I would make sure I did,nt take anyone with me.
I just see you making excuse after excuse that its alright to do what he did and you even feel sorry for him.
Don't feel sorry for him, save your pity for those on the train who had there lives taken away because of some selfish suicide maniac, which is what he was, who have left families and loved ones and for the families who expected there loved ones to come home but never will.
This is not about depression, and suicide.
Its about killing inocent people without regard, thats what this all about, just ask the families of the victims if they care about his depression and suicidal tendancy, he took away the only thing that mattered to them and now there dead.
No excuses, he's a murderer.
I suppose you feel sorry for the Physcophrenic ( spelling ) who killed someone because he was ill.
Poor old dear did'nt know what he was doing so give him a couple of years in a hospital and let him out to interegrate with the community to cause havoc again. :
:loopy:

If you wanted to end it all? You can't really make those decisions can you though? because you don't, I expect?

I have never said that I don't feel pity for the victims , because I do. I have said it is TRAGIC (mournful; terrible; calamitous).

YES, I do feel sorry for anyone with mental illness, and thier victims (should there be any).

Lets hope you never experience it first hand or second. Maybe you would feel different. Before you say that you won't, it is more common than you think.

Mental illness is just that. An illness. It is no different from any other illness other than it is not visible, like cancer for example. Never the less very real!

I don't see that anyone is making excuses for the driver or does not feel sympathy for the victims and their families. What is being said is that you cannot apply rational reasoning to an irrational person.

From the lofty position of a legally sane person I too could declare that I would commit suicide in such and such a way in order to reduce the pain for others. Unfortunately, people with suicidal tendencies do not behave in what we would call a sane manner.

A tiny bit of compassion for the driver does not diminish any sympathy for the victims and their families.

Originally posted by max
I don't see that anyone is making excuses for the driver or does not feel sympathy for the victims and their families. What is being said is that you cannot apply rational reasoning to an irrational person.

From the lofty position of a legally sane person I too could declare that I would commit suicide in such and such a way in order to reduce the pain for others. Unfortunately, people with suicidal tendencies do not behave in what we would call a sane manner.

A tiny bit of compassion for the driver does not diminish any sympathy for the victims and their families.

very well put Max.
:thumbsup:

bonny seems to be making a lot of sense here.

The people who disagree are trying to understand rationally why this person committed suicide in the way he did, and that won't work. If he was still capable of thinking about the consequences of what he was doing, he'd probably have never done it, so at the most you could call it manslaughter, I agree with Bonny though and just call it tragic.

Originally posted by Cyclone
bonny seems to be making a lot of sense here.

The people who disagree are trying to understand rationally why this person committed suicide in the way he did, and that won't work. If he was still capable of thinking about the consequences of what he was doing, he'd probably have never done it, so at the most you could call it manslaughter, I agree with Bonny though and just call it tragic. Manslaughter, murder its the same in the end, to take a life in whatever means is wrong.
He intended to harm others by harming himself and its that what I am going on about.
I do have compassion for mental illness, really I do but when someone harms someone else due to it then its wrong.
He could have sectioned himself or walked into the train and he would have had no chance of derailing it despite Bonny saying it would.
This is my view on the matter and I think I'm right regardless on your disagreements.
This guy should go to his grave a murderer.

Originally posted by Cycleracer
Manslaughter, murder its the same in the end, to take a life in whatever means is wrong.
He intended to harm others by harming himself and its that what I am going on about.
I do have compassion for mental illness, really I do but when someone harms someone else due to it then its wrong.
He could have sectioned himself or walked into the train and he would have had no chance of derailing it despite Bonny saying it would.
This is my view on the matter and I think I'm right regardless on your disagreements.
This guy should go to his grave a murderer.

manslaughter and murder are very different, it's all about intent.
But i still think you assuming that this person could see the consequences of his actions beyond the fact that he would die, i don't know that we can say that is necessarily the case.

Whatever the reason those people on that train did not deserve to get killed/injured.No one can change what has happened, its just a terrible tradegy.

I am thinking of the families of those poor people involved.They are the ones who will need an answer to this one, sadly they will probably never get one.
the only person who can answer this for us is the man that caused it.

There were 7 people murdered on that train and i do not care what anybody else says on the subject. They were NOT killed by accident in any way,shape or form.
Diminished responsibility!... B*****ks...
Diminished responsibility is when a wife comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman/man and then knifes him.

Originally posted by Cyclone
manslaughter and murder are very different, it's all about intent.
I know the difference and it does'nt matter.
What matters is that it was intent to harm or kill inocent people which is what he did.
You can't argue the fact that it was his fault the people died through his selfishness.
Whatever his reason behind it does not count.
He's a killer.

Originally posted by bonny
I'm sorry to hear that Joe.

I'm sure you will understand though that not every suicidal person is the same and has the same thoughts. We cannot rationalise it.

maybe he had already taken copious amounts of drugs, alcohol, whatever?

In my case the person was already ill and very inibriated also. To take your own life especially premeditate it and carry it out, how can you be of sane mind?

It is pure TRAGIC

Well, in my personal example the guy was a selfish ******* beforehand and stayed selfish afterwards. The only drink and drugs he'd taken were the ones with which he attempted to take his life.

It IS tragic - and whilst appreciating that this is what they mean by that wonderful legal phrase 'while the balance of the mind was disturbed', IF in this case the chap was doing it to kill himself he'd just managed to complete a shift at work just an hour before.

Assuming that he did commit suicide....

With this particular form of suicide, he was aware that the train would kill him and wreck the car, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. He was therefore rational enough to link that particular cause and effect. I find it inconceivable that his rationality would then have balked at 'Oh, and the train will almost certainly leave the tracks'.

Sorry, I know I sound very hard and brutal, but anyone with the foresight to use an express train to kill themselves also has the knowldge of the wider consequences.

Joe

Originally posted by vidster
There were 7 people murdered on that train and i do not care what anybody else says on the subject. They were NOT killed by accident in any way,shape or form.
Diminished responsibility!... B*****ks...
Diminished responsibility is when a wife comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman/man and then knifes him.

yeah, i completely see your point. Someone who's upset is unbalanced, but someone who's about to kill themselves, they are obviously no where near as unbalanced as the woman in your example... :loopy:

Originally posted by Cycleracer
I know the difference and it does'nt matter.
What matters is that it was intent to harm or kill inocent people which is what he did.
You can't argue the fact that it was his fault the people died through his selfishness.
Whatever his reason behind it does not count.
He's a killer.

and there hangs the crux of my point, you do not KNOW that he had any intent beyond killing himself. You can carry on making whatever assumptions you like, but assumptions would never get someone convicted, so he's not a murderer unless you can somehow prove beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to kill people.

I can't argue that his actions caused the deaths of those people, which is why i suggested manslaughter.

I haven't read anything about this case which gives any indication as to why the driver was suicidal. Apparently suicide is one of the biggest causes of death amongst young men, and I often wonder why there isn't much help out there for such people to turn to. If something is making them depressed, and there isn't any help for them, would it be acceptible to suggest that the blame for the deaths of those train passengers lies not with the driver, but with our society's inability to cope with depression?

I'm sure that if the individual in question had access to the help that he needed, he wouldn't have felt the need to "go out with a bang" in order to make everyone sit up and take notice that he had a problem.

May I make a suggestion?

For all those who have difficulty understanding the workings of an ill mind and choose to call them selfish, pay a visit to your local mental health hospital and spend some time with the people there. I'm sure that they would welcome you.

You will find that these people are very sensative and caring. They feel things deeply. They will probably ask you how YOU are as care about how YOU are.

It might suprise you. I'm not defending their actions or condoning them. I just think that until you have walked a mile in their shoes you can't really call them selfish or say they do it with intent.