did you watch this? i was literally shouting at the telly!

I missed the programme but the idea of kids having kids upsets and concerns me a great deal.

As a parent I shudder to think how I would have coped had I had my son when I was still at school. Its hard enough being a parent when you have some life experience and maturity to bring to the job.

Originally posted by beckb
I missed the programme but the idea of kids having kids upsets and concerns me a great deal.

As a parent I shudder to think how I would have coped had I had my son when I was still at school. Its hard enough being a parent when you have some life experience and maturity to bring to the job.

I missed this too... was planning to watch but ended up going out and forgetting it was on... never mind... it was a good night :) all the same

The part that angered me was that little chavette who didn't give a toss about her child after she'd had it. Her and her sister had a race to see who could get pregnant first when they're 15 and 16.

What's happening :wow:

I loved the bit where the chavs gathered around when the chavesse was giving birth to another chavette, the mick & fred still had his hat on. I only just kept my foot out of the telly :rant:

The mother of those 2 girls was a disgrace and what about her boyfriend?? It annoys me, children are so prescious


MOD: Please remove caps lock when posting, thanks.

Everyone seemed to be heavily pregnant, even the pets. I nearly had to leave the room to be sick. Why give such improvident, moronic types their 15 mins of "fame"?

I watched this and was amazed at the so called parent of the two girls that were pregnant. None of that family were adult enough to make decisions not even the so called step dad and real mother. I don`t hold out any hope for the other 3 girls, they will I fear also become pregnant as soon as they can.

I discussed the way the 14 year olds don`t respect sex on the listening to a conversation on a bus thread.

Where are the values and morals of life or have parents given up on these. There seemed very little of these in the programme last night.

I was utterly gobsmacked...

Charles Darwin must be turning in his grave.. :rolleyes:



edd

Sounds like the start of 'The Marching Morons'.....(a science fiction story from the 1930s/40s that has aged really badly...)

The idea that the brighter and more responsible members of society will have less kids, and the feckless ones will have more, so that there'll be a shift in population towards folks from a less than brilliant background.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the future population will be full of people with the same outlook and attitudes as their parents, but it doesn't look hopeful.

Kinda scary.

Joe

Sabrina the teenage granmother

http://www.jokefile.co.uk/odds/New%20Folder/Liverpool%2004.jpg

:hihi:

.........................

Originally posted by Edd
I was utterly gobsmacked...

Charles Darwin must be turning in his grave.. :rolleyes:



edd

why?

Originally posted by kirky
http://www.jokefile.co.uk/odds/New%20Folder/Liverpool%2004.jpg

:hihi:

lmao

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally posted by timo
Everyone seemed to be heavily pregnant, even the pets. I nearly had to leave the room to be sick. Why give such improvident, moronic types their 15 mins of "fame"?

Well timo, it seems that it caught your attention enough to watch it...

Joe.... there is a great deal of truth in what you said as much of a shame as that might be....

Surely we are getting off the mark here.
Why are the people who are having sex with underage girls not being prosecuted? it is after all still illegal to have sex with some one under the age of sixteen.

kids should be thinking about football and make up, not bonking!!

Venger,
Of course I watched it! I might resent the "fame" it gave to the bloated, slatternly evolutionary failures on the screen, but their grotesque lifestyles and complete lack of civilisation fascinated, as well as repelled me. You must know what I mean here; a kind of enjoyable revulsion?! Bring back the Ducking Stool for these vile temptresses, burn their hovels to the ground and use their deformed offspring for medical experiments.

i wanna scream hear hear to you timo! but i best not, let me think of words of encouragement for them ermmm school, college, learn direct (early learning too), condoms? GET A JOB!

Originally posted by timo
Venger,
Of course I watched it! I might resent the "fame" it gave to the bloated, slatternly evolutionary failures on the screen, but their grotesque lifestyles and complete lack of civilisation fascinated, as well as repelled me. You must know what I mean here; a kind of enjoyable revulsion?! Bring back the Ducking Stool for these vile temptresses, burn their hovels to the ground and use their deformed offspring for medical experiments.

Sort of car-crash TV....

You kow it's bad to watch it and that there's probably a special corner of purgatory where you'll spend time for watching it, but it's SO compelling...:)

What's really tragic is that society as a whole condones and implicitly supports this behaviour by providing housing, looking for 'reasons' why these people are members of the 'underclass' (other than them being a bunch of slackers) and generally making it possible for this essentially parasitic behaviour to be rewarded.

BTW, someone mentioned Darwin some posts back - there's no 'direction' in Darwinian thought - just the blind process of those that are best suited to the environment in which they find themselves will survive and thrive and spawn the next generation, which would hopefully carry on the same genes. I'm not an expert on Social Darwinism but I guess that we've created a society that is more supportive for people with these social and cultural attitudes to breed than it is for other members of society to breed, so we'll end up with that sociological niche being filled.

You know, today I think I'm in my Atilla The Hun mode...:)

Joe

yeah like trisha! gees how the other half live!! (says me who laughs her head off at jerry, jerry jerry!)

Natalie, please feel free to cheer "hear hear to Timo" any time you wish! I am honoured that such a gorgeous creature would lend support to my views, expressed as always, in good faith. Let we gentle web-surfers, the beautiful people, unleash an outraged scream of hatred against the evolutionary failures of the dependency culture; the "chavs" and "chavesses", slack-jawed oafs and louts, improvident, feckless teenage grandparents etc. Rewarded by an overly generous benefits system, the Underclass multiplies daily like some insidious virus. Its values are those of the prison system ["never grass" etc], and its lack of shame fathomless. Instead of dying out like some vestigial, fossil people in a remote enclave, the likes of the TV programme we saw are thriving due to the punitive level of taxation forced upon the bulk of us. Workfare instead of Welfare might be worth a shot. Keep wiggling, Nat!

While I agree with your sentiments timo about the problems society is facing due to the explosive growth of this under-class I feel I must disagree with it's cause. On other threads where the subject of chavs has arisen most people agree that this culture is almost exclusively an import from the USA. Shell suits, baseball caps, day time tv, customised cars (cf Dukes of Hazard), etc., etc. Pretty much a clone of what US politicans have described as trailer park trash.

In the USA they have limited welfare and the disenfranchised rely mostly on their equivalent of workfare plus they have a fairly low tax regime.

See the dichotomy here? We can either blame the rise of chav on American influence or an overly generous welfare system but not both.

Just my thoughts.

it seems like some people lose the will to live - by live i mean, get educated, earn money, travel etc... theres no way i could sit on my butt 24/7, claiming ben (unless, i had being made redund, or had a serious ill, or other good reason). there's more to life, than petty little problems, or who bonked who, or "you talking to me" syndrome.
Kids are dying etc out there and although we cant change the world, we can appreciate our own and not waste it

ok, ive done now!
ps X timo!

Max,
Thanks for your interesting views here. I respect your opinion here, but I disagree with your point re the cause of "Chav" behaviour. If we are talking seriously about the causes of an Underclass [some of my previous comments are mischevious]; there are both structural and cultural explanations for its existence. Without getting too academic, some authors like Charles Murray argue that the Underclass choose to belong to a dependency culture- they have agency. Others, like Dahrendorf argue that causality lies in the impact of social structure upon society, i.e, unemployment, deregulation, a global network of production and exchange etc. As to whether the behaviour of the Underclass is caused by the influence of American low/popular culture or by the cynical, work-shy "members" taking advantage of an overly generous benefits system- why do we have to have a unitary, reductionist "absolute" explanation anyway? With respect, Max, maybe the phenomenon cannot be reduced to a single cause. I think causality, in this case, is due to a cluster of variables; a combination of many different causes, some of which are structural, some of which are cultural. In other words, USA Coca-colonisation AND human agency in the form of "Chavs" taking advantage of tax-funded benefits are BOTH part of a cluster of inter-related causes. Regards to you, mate.

Originally posted by max

See the dichotomy here? We can either blame the rise of chav on American influence or an overly generous welfare system but not both.

Just my thoughts.

Nah....we can have our cake AND eat it! ;)

Seriously, I think that socially we've created our own underclass / chavs / whatever but they've taken on board cultural references from all sorts of places. Some aspects of British working class culture, some from the US, some elements of Hip-Hop ('bling'), etc.

Joe

wish i had some bling bling or even just a bli bli

Yeah, just me oversimplifying again. I think we've probably had the equivalent of chavs since the dawn of man. You can just imagine them with their go faster woad stripes painted on the side of their saxosaurases greeting the civilising (?) Romans:

Roman: We have come to conquer your land, bring you schools, running water and other things mentioned in Life of Brian

Chav: Whatever

Joe, I always enjoy your thoughtful postings, and this one has made me think. Who is "we" ? Are you referring to "society" here? I don't think society can be classed as a social actor with the ability to formulate and act upon decisions. To say that it did have such agency would be to engage in reification. If "we" is society, then society is a collectivity. Surely, only individual people [social actors] have the agency [free will] to "create" an Underclass? As I said previously, I personally think the sub-group was created by a cluster of cultural [down to choice], and structural [outside of human agency] causes. We can theorise as to causality, but ultimately we need some strategies to curtail the insidious growth of this class. Max makes a valid point re the presence of a huge US Underclass despite Workfare. I am tempted to suggest a eugenic solution, but I am genuinely afraid of where that might lead...

Originally posted by timo
Joe, I always enjoy your thoughtful postings, and this one has made me think. Who is "we" ? Are you referring to "society" here? I don't think society can be classed as a social actor with the ability to formulate and act upon decisions. To say that it did have such agency would be to engage in reification. If "we" is society, then society is a collectivity. Surely, only individual people [social actors] have the agency [free will] to "create" an Underclass? As I said previously, I personally think the sub-group was created by a cluster of cultural [down to choice], and structural [outside of human agency] causes. We can theorise as to causality, but ultimately we need some strategies to curtail the insidious growth of this class. Max makes a valid point re the presence of a huge US Underclass despite Workfare. I am tempted to suggest a eugenic solution, but I am genuinely afraid of where that might lead...

That's a good point.....

I suppose I'm using the 'we' as a shorthand for 'folks who think like me'....which is NEVER a good idea!

I tend to think that the underclass or whatever name we stick them with are an emergent artefact of the complex system that we describe as modern society. Like any parasite, they find an ecological niche within the structures around them and exploit that niche.

As for solutions....I guess that adopting the biological analogy a little more - though it's really creaking here - it's a case of removing the environment and the cultural structure that allows tehm to proliferate. Now HOW we do that....I have no idea...though after a few more chunks of VB get written here I may return to the issue! :)

Joe

Originally posted by timo
I am tempted to suggest a eugenic solution, but I am genuinely afraid of where that might lead...

It's never worked out in the past.

I agree, Nick. The temptation to suggest it in exasperation is there. However, I wouldn't want to live in a society in which such "solutions" were put in practice. Mind you, things like IVF and pre-natal screening are examples of eugenics in a way. Not the state variety, but a kind of laissez-faire eugenics, which is there because there is a market for it. Today, everyone can be their own eugenicist!

I have mixed emotions about the IVF thing, on the one hand you think "how wonderfull" that they engineered a baby to save that young lads life, but then I think that the same technology would probably have given my parents the choice of not having me (if you believe the genetic argument) and I wonder what they would have done.

Nick,
I can understand your mixed feelings here. I have wondered about what my parents would have done too. Makes you think doesn't it?!
Back to the programme- somebody way back on the thread [was it Owdlad?] asked if those on the programme who had engaged in under-age sex were being prosecuted. The parents should be prosecuted in principle. Not that it would curb the goatish couplings between these nylon-clad Romeos and Juliets. In the cases on screen it was clear that such behaviour was condoned and accepted as part of everyday life in Chavdom. One day, I fear, human-animal partnerships will be tolerated in our debased Chav culture, as is the case with America's perverted "Zoo Community". In one American state [can't remember which], human-animal marriage is legal, with one famous example being that of the man who married and conducted a sexual relationship with a horse. For obvious moral reasons I could never condone such a development in Chav culture, but it would work out cheaper for the tax payer if the Burberry-clad menfolk took their pleasure with equine or bovine partners. Perhaps this is the next step for Chavdom...

This was toe curling stuff.

At times, I wasn't sure if it was a spoof or not.

Those two girls competing to be give birth one before the other...stereotypical chav trash. The shellsuits, the baseball caps...

I'm sure it was a spoof...

Who on earth decided to give these morons the oxygen of publicity...

Ah well, perhaps I should think of it as sponsoring an orphan, in that I can see just how my taxes are benefitting those who need them the most :rant:

They were in the News of The World last Sunday. Apparently, they claim £30-odd grand a year in benefit. :rant:

Thirty grand a year! We are the greater fools, are we not?! Why bother working, when you can make a good living copulating and watching daytime TV? Actually, I've heard of worse cases. Charles Murray cites a Newcastle family in Losing Ground [about the Underclass], who in the 80s collectively received benefits that equalled more than the contributions of the tax payers of an area of the city. I believe in a minimal welfare "safety net" for the genuinely needy, but such cases highlight how the system can work very much against itself. The horribly fertile families featured in the programme doubtless take our hard-earned cash completely for granted. At the risk of sounding slightly at odds with the left/liberal consensus on welfare; can they be persuaded to share their baths with electric eels? Or maybe our impoverished, overstretched Armed Forces could use them as human mine sweepers? Just a couple of ideas offered in good faith...

I have read these posts barely understanding some of it, and I didn't see the program, but don't you think that bad parenting is at the root of it all. And it's going back to the parent's parent's and so on. So will be perpetuated unless parenting skills are taught in someway to these young people. To bring up a child to know right from wrong should be a parents job and some do not have the knowledge (skills) to do this. Perhaps we should be looking at education of parents.
hazel

Originally posted by hazel
I have read these posts barely understanding some of it, and I didn't see the program, but don't you think that bad parenting is at the root of it all. And it's going back to the parent's parent's and so on. So will be perpetuated unless parenting skills are taught in someway to these young people. To bring up a child to know right from wrong should be a parents job and some do not have the knowledge (skills) to do this. Perhaps we should be looking at education of parents.
hazel

Good point, Hazel.

I try not to comment on parenting skills, as mine are basically limited to those required to be the responsible human for cats.

However, my mum and dad laid down limits and to a great degree allowed me freedom to operate within those limits. I had jobs to do, standards in schoolwork to achieve, behaviours to maintain, etc. and if I did that all was well.

I think that poor parenting seems to start with soeone not giving a damn about the welfare of the child and caring more about their pleasure or comfort. The child experiences the selfish behaviour, and it starts being more selfish itself.

Much anti-social behaviour is caused, IMHO, by people being selfish, and if we can somehoe break THAT particular pattern of behaviour I reckon we might be in for a good chance at beating back the Marching Morons.

And Hazel, I sometimes have problems undesrtanding soem of MY postings, let alone anyone else's! :)

Joe

Hazel,
Yes, the apparent complete lack of parenting "skills" must play a significant part here. I wouldn't trust those on the programme to water a cactus, never mind look after a child. Don't you think that far too many parents today are overly protective and sentimental on one hand, yet neglectful on the other. Sadly, with the move towards a privatised, home-based lifestyle there has been a rise in selfishness amongst [some of] the population. This can be seen in the way in which parents over-identify with their offspring [living vicariously through them], whilst at the same time not imposing required discipline. I don't want a return to "Victorian values", but the idea that with rights come firm duties needs to be hammered home to [particularly teenage] children.

I spent 17yrs working in reception class---4-5yr olds and encountered lots of cchildren who didn't understand the word NO
once a child realises it cannot have evrything it wants, it's a good start. Once a child sees that you mean what you say and are not going to give in you can build from there. Lay down the rules while they are small and they will hopefully follow them as adults. Most people are not prepared to put ithe time in with their children, they shower them with presents, deseigner clothes etc and forget that most of all they need their attention and time. Surely we cannot afford to cast of these "chavs " on one side without giving them some lifeline if thier parents don't.
I don't know the solution but someone might.

I used to say at school, that I don't have a magic wand over the classroom door that makes them behave you know. A good firm no in the right place does a world of good
hazel

yes, the program was sickening and extremely worrying, but did no one feel any compassion towards the kids?
I was brought up on a housing estate in a one parent family for a while, and was lucky to have a mother in employment, and a large family who encouraged us to always do well at school etc.
Unfortunately, a large number of children are born into 'family's' in area's where there are very low chances of full time fulfilling employment (eg, ex-mining communities etc). In these circumstances, the children see, by watching their family and the majority of the community around them, that even if you do do well at school and get a job there appears to be very little chance of improving your 'lot in life'. Therefore they 'give up' before they've even started, and start to think that maybe the best they can get out of life is a council house and a baby as soon as possible! Yes, I know this isnt the truth, but if you are faced with this sort of life, day in, day out, you soon loose any dreams and hopes, and hence stop making any effort at school etc, when you start to belive that you wont have a better life than your parents etc.

Originally posted by emmwalker
yes, the program was sickening and extremely worrying, but did no one feel any compassion towards the kids?
I was brought up on a housing estate in a one parent family for a while, and was lucky to have a mother in employment, and a large family who encouraged us to always do well at school etc.
Unfortunately, a large number of children are born into 'family's' in area's where there are very low chances of full time fulfilling employment (eg, ex-mining communities etc). In these circumstances, the children see, by watching their family and the majority of the community around them, that even if you do do well at school and get a job there appears to be very little chance of improving your 'lot in life'. Therefore they 'give up' before they've even started, and start to think that maybe the best they can get out of life is a council house and a baby as soon as possible! Yes, I know this isnt the truth, but if you are faced with this sort of life, day in, day out, you soon loose any dreams and hopes, and hence stop making any effort at school etc, when you start to belive that you wont have a better life than your parents etc.

I was bought up on a Council estate, with both parents, in the 1960s. My dad was a labourer (semi-skilled) and my mum a cleaning lady. General career paths for people in my family / locale were : the pit, the military, labouring, the council.

My parents decided to do what they could to ensure that I'd get whatever opportunities I could to get out of that pattern, and I was fortunate enough to be able to do so.

However, it required sacrifice from them and some hard work from me. Of course I can empathise with the despair that these people may feel - but someone who's selfish enough to have a kid just to get a house is not someone I can feel any sympathy for whatsoever.

However, two things that I was bought up with and that seems lacking in many of these people is a sense of self-respect and a feeling that they have duties and responsibilities in society as well as the 'rights' that they're so keen on reminding us of.

It isn't easy to get out of the pits that these people have been dropped in by feckless parents and a social welfare system that, rather than working to create real jobs in the local economy makes it easier to do bugger all and get benefits. The social welfare system that we've ended up with is almost like a drug pusher - it deals with the pain by providing short term solutions.

Whilst we need a system to support those that cannot work due to age, sickness, disability or genuine lack of jobs, we also need that system to be such that it actively discourages mindless production of children as a means of social betterment, and encourages the capable to get back in to work by creating genuine jobs in the local economy and making the benefits system as uninviting as possible.

Yup....my Atilla The Hun hat is definitely getting some serious wear this week.

Joe

I think that what is likely to happen is the further distancing of the other socio-economic groups [particularly the cognitive elite- the professional middle classes] from the Underclass. I am pessimistic about human "nature", and tend to believe the worst will happen. The "chavs", in al likelihood will continue to enjoy the benefits of their dependency culture because there isn't the will to roll back the welfare state . Sadly, the left/liberal consensus rules, with [my only hope] the Tories lurching further towards social liberalism under the malign influence of Letwin and his friends. The situation will worsen, our taxes will rise further, and we shall all have to do our very best to insulate ourselves against the 21st Century's "Undeserving Poor". Poor? On 30 grand a year...?!

Originally posted by timo
The situation will worsen, our taxes will rise further, and we shall all have to do our very best to insulate ourselves against the 21st Century's "Undeserving Poor". Poor? On 30 grand a year...?!
£30k takes the p***, you know what happens in cyprus if you dont have a job? F all, you dont work, you dont eat - tough ****.
Gees if i lost my job, id do anything until i found a more suitable position. (prob something to do with mortgage and car)
they are lazy b******s, why the hell should i pay for them ??? only thing ill pay for, for them is bloomin condoms

what do u class as a kid thought????

what do u class as a young mum