I want to know what happened to human souls before god showed up?
I know some people don't want to believe it but humans pre-date religion. So what happened to their souls, did god take them anyway? Were they heathens even though they had no idea that god was there (if he is/was)?
Did they go to Hell because they hadn't been told about god?
Are they still just floating around out there because they didn't know about the devil either and so couldn't get into hell?

Jabber got me thinking about it with his thread, he was talking about taking god out of the picture, I want to know what happened before he was in it.

The problem is that the concept of evolution and the evidence of a long period of developement and change on earth are at odds with the traditional account of creation, which also presupposes that God was already in existence before the universe which he brought into being.

It is the case, though, that some early Christian theologians were worried about the issue of salvation for pre-Christian pagans, some of whom were undoubtedly Good Fellows--why should they be condemned to Hell merely for being born before Christ? (This would also apply to the Old Testament Patriarchs). That's why the (non-Biblical) story of the Harrowing of Hell by Christ during the three days before his resurrection came into currency in the Middle Ages.

Mate its Friday night, and thats really deep but, just to put your mind at rest before god there was "The Hoff" and everything since then has just been a lesser creation :thumbsup:

I'm getting a headache just thinking about that one :)

Mate its Friday night, and thats really deep but, just to put your mind at rest before god there was "The Hoff" and everything since then has just been a lesser creation :thumbsup:

I'm going out so it doesn't matter, I just wanted to ask while it was fresh in my mind and hopefully by tomorrow I will have the answer.

Salvation has always been dependent on belief in God.

For example “And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He (God) accounted it to him for righteousness.” Gen 15.6

Have a read of this.

http://www.biblebell.org/otsaints.html

Look everyone knows, there is no god, everything is down to the Timelords...

Salvation has always been dependent on belief in God.

For example “And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He (God) accounted it to him for righteousness.” Gen 15.6

Have a read of this.

http://www.biblebell.org/otsaints.html

I didn't ask what happened before christ, I asked what happened before god.

Before the concept of god

Look everyone knows, there is no god, everything is down to the Timelords...

So who created the Timelords then???

So who created the Timelords then???

See now thats the tricky one... its one of those mysterys that may never be answered... i think this is where the thread ends :P

See now thats the tricky one... its one of those mysterys that may never be answered... i think this is where the thread ends :P

The Hoff created the Timelords, I thought everyone knew that.:rolleyes:

I didn't ask what happened before christ, I asked what happened before god.

Before the concept of god

Just beacuse there was no concept of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 100 years ago there was no concept of subatomic particles but that doesn't mean they only popped into existance when we went a-looking for them!

I didn't ask what happened before christ, I asked what happened before god.

Before the concept of god

Sorry.

The Bible starts with the words, "In the beginning God."

I don't think there were people before God.

Also what evildrneil says.

Just beacuse there was no concept of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 100 years ago there was no concept of subatomic particles but that doesn't mean they only popped into existance when we went a-looking for them!

I know, my original question is what happened to peoples souls before they knew about god and how to reach salvation.

Sorry.

The Bible starts with the words, "In the beginning God."

I don't think there were people before God.

There might not have been but there were people before religion. people didn't always know about god. What happened before they realised he was there?

There might not have been but there were people before religion. people didn't always know about god. What happened before they realised he was there?

I would have to brush up on ancient religions, I think there has always been a belief in something judging by cave painting and the Pyramids etc.
Have you any actual data to support your thoughts?

...what happened to peoples souls before they knew about god and how to reach salvation.
Exactly what happens now to the various concepts, thoughts, imaginings, fantasies and wonderings humans come up with: they cease to exist when the brain dies, rots, becomes worm food and crumbles to dust.

If anyone had come up with the concept of a 'soul' way back when, the idea would have been passed on to others and continued to exist as someone else's memory and thoughts, pretty much like we do when we're gone.

And while we`re at it, man has only been around for a few million years. What the hell was god doing during the 150, 000,000 years when dinosaurs were around, and the couple of billion years before that?

And before all that, the universe was around for several billion years, in comparison man has only been around for a blink of an eye.
God must have been bloody bored after all that time.

AND while we`re at it, has anyone seen the ghost of a Neanderthal man? A cro magnon angel?

WELL?!?!?


Yeah, Ive been at the coffee again. muhahahahah

...God must have been bloody bored after all that time.
Nah, he was busy coming up with and burying all those fossils...

Perhaps the answer to your question lays in the theory of reincarnation.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/r/reincarnation.html

I don't know much about it though.

I want to know what happened to human souls before god showed up?
I know some people don't want to believe it but humans pre-date religion.
People who believe in religion are rather unlikely to accept that though aren't they, you are talking about religion as a human construct whereas they see it as being real.

Most religions have a creation myth in which there god/s was around before people were so you question would make no sense to them.

So what happened to their souls, did god take them anyway? Were they heathens even though they had no idea that god was there (if he is/was)?
Did they go to Hell because they hadn't been told about god?
Are they still just floating around out there because they didn't know about the devil either and so couldn't get into hell?
If the question is what happens to people who aren't aware of any particular god different religions answer that differently, in most branches of Christianity the answer is simple: they go to hell. Other religions like Islam state that those unaware of Allah aren't to blame and are judged according to their character though iirc nice heathens have a less fancy heaven than Muslims, people who're aware of Allah & reject him though are hell bound.

So basically there is no one answer to your question it's a question that most significant faiths have faced and they've dealt with it in a variety of ways.

One problem related to this that Christianity has faced is that the logical conclusion of the doctrine that as 'Salvation has always been dependent on belief in God' (as Grahame put it) is that people incapable of believing in God such as babies, young children & people with severe learning difficulties all go to hell when they die, most churches have of course tried to get round this is a variety of ways as it obviously upset believers who's children died, as they did rather often in the 'good old days'.

Perhaps the answer to your question lays in the theory of reincarnation.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/r/reincarnation.html

I don't know much about it though.

So theres more than a slim chance that I could once have been a mighty Tyrannosaurus, or a Sabre toothed tiger.


Erm... or a..... you know...


Whelk...

One problem related to this that Christianity has faced is that the logical conclusion of the doctrine that as 'Salvation has always been dependent on belief in God' (as Grahame put it) is that people incapable of believing in God such as babies, young children & people with severe learning difficulties all go to hell when they die, most churches have of course tried to get round this is a variety of ways as it obviously upset believers who's children died, as they did rather often in the 'good old days'.

Not quite correct.

If you look at the Middle Ages view of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven, then the unbaptised, those ignorant of God and the 'virtuous pagans' occupied the First Circle of Hell - 'Limbo' - which was very similar to an Earthly life, actually. The 'punishment' here was the separation from God - viewed as appropriate because the inhabitants of this Circle of Hell were regarded as being without faith.

The medieval Roman Catholic view was that souls in Limbo did not advance in to Purgatory (the first step on the way to heaven through which all souls must pass before being allowed in to Heaven.

So theres more than a slim chance that I could once have been a mighty Tyrannosaurus, or a Sabre toothed tiger.


Erm... or a..... you know...


Whelk...

That is one view isn't it.

The article (if you believe it) seems to be saying the human soul remains as is and remains imortal.

I didn't ask what happened before christ, I asked what happened before god.

Before the concept of godgod created heaven and earth and man in his image, or so ive read...so.....he must have been there first,what he passed his time on before that...god only knows..:)

Not quite correct.

If you look at the Middle Ages view of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven, then the unbaptised, those ignorant of God and the 'virtuous pagans' occupied the First Circle of Hell - 'Limbo' - which was very similar to an Earthly life, actually. The 'punishment' here was the separation from God - viewed as appropriate because the inhabitants of this Circle of Hell were regarded as being without faith.

The medieval Roman Catholic view was that souls in Limbo did not advance in to Purgatory (the first step on the way to heaven through which all souls must pass before being allowed in to Heaven.

How about the view that in order to commit sin, you need to know right from wrong so it wouldn't apply to a newborn baby or a still birth for example?

I know this is in variance to original sin, but I think it is good to examine these things sometimes.

How about the view that in order to commit sin, you need to know right from wrong so it wouldn't apply to a newborn baby or a still birth for example?

I know this is in variance to original sin, but I think it is good to examine these things sometimes.

Exactly - Limbo was also the destination for the newborn, the 'idiots', etc.

The deliberately committed sins were dealt with by the Second and subsequent circles of Hell, all the way to the Ninth Circle, the Pit.

If you've a few days to spare, Dante's Divine Comedy gives an excellent review of Medieval theology.

Not quite correct.

If you look at the Middle Ages view of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven, then the unbaptised, those ignorant of God and the 'virtuous pagans' occupied the First Circle of Hell - 'Limbo' - which was very similar to an Earthly life, actually. The 'punishment' here was the separation from God - viewed as appropriate because the inhabitants of this Circle of Hell were regarded as being without faith.

The medieval Roman Catholic view was that souls in Limbo did not advance in to Purgatory (the first step on the way to heaven through which all souls must pass before being allowed in to Heaven.
That's one of the ways of getting round the 'your baby is burning in hell' problem that I was talking about, when faced with the distressing consequences of what the bible says on the subject of salvation the Catholic Church found it politic to invent a new area of theology (with little/no scriptural foundation) to soften the blow.

How about the view that in order to commit sin, you need to know right from wrong so it wouldn't apply to a newborn baby or a still birth for example?

I know this is in variance to original sin, but I think it is good to examine these things sometimes.
Exactly, that reasoning contradicts one of the fundamental foundations of Christian theology and neatly illustrates the kind of doublethink christians are forced to perform when faced with a belief in the bible and the death of a child.

Exactly, that reasoning contradicts one of the fundamental foundations of Christian theology and neatly illustrates the kind of doublethink christians are forced to perform when faced with a belief in the bible and the death of a child.
I do wish you would get it right.

Again there is a misreading of the Bible. Children inherit the consequences of their parent’s sin. For example if a parent abuses their child. (This is a sin of the parent for which the child suffers.)

If a parent is irresponsible and squanders their wages on gambling and drink, then again the sins (wrong doing) of the parents are visited on the children.

Another example is the Israelites who had adopted the practice of sacrificing their own children to the false god Baal. Again the iniquity of the parents is visited upon the children in the form of physical suffering and death.

When the children inherit the sins of their fathers it is due to the actions of the parents, not God.

The child has not sinned, and I am convinced they will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Exactly, that reasoning contradicts one of the fundamental foundations of Christian theology and neatly illustrates the kind of doublethink christians are forced to perform when faced with a belief in the bible and the death of a child.

It's a good point. The Church has debated this point for the last 1800 years and the current position of the Catholic Church in the Catechism (I think - I'm not a Catholic) is that the souls of unbaptised infants are entrusted to the mercy of God.

There is one school of theological thought that argues that there is a Scriptural basis for believing that unbaptised children will not be turned away from Christ. The New Testament statement from Christ 'Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God' has been interpreted as meaning that children (or those of child-like innocence) would gain Heaven (or at least Purgatory) because they have no sins to gain forgiveness for.

This has, of course, been the basis of the tradition of Christians baptisingthier children early in life - just to be on the safe side.

I do wish you would get it right.

Again there is a misreading of the Bible.
There is? Well maybe you should tell the Catholic Church and most other significant branches of Christianity about this 'misreading' and inform them of the true reading that only you seem to be aware of as they have been wrestling with this particular problem for many hundreds of years.

Children inherit the consequences of their parent’s sin. For example if a parent abuses their child. (This is a sin of the parent for which the child suffers.)

If a parent is irresponsible and squanders their wages on gambling and drink, then again the sins (wrong doing) of the parents are visited on the children.

Another example is the Israelites who had adopted the practice of sacrificing their own children to the false god Baal. Again the iniquity of the parents is visited upon the children in the form of physical suffering and death.

The children inherit the sins of their fathers. It is down to the actions of the parents, not God.

The child has not sinned, and I am convinced they will inherit the Kingdom of God.
You are of course free to be 'convinced' of anything you like but the fact of the matter is that yours is not the understanding of original sin adopted by most significant branches of Christianity and it is the obviously the widespread understanding of the concept and the difficulties it puts people in that I was referring to.

!whois god

!whois god

Go and look it up on Wiki or in a dictionary - come back when you have something to offer to the debate.

Thanks.

I believe the innocents who have not sinned be they unborn or handicapped will be on the highest plane as they are "untarnished" by sin

In many ways asking a theist 'What happened before god?' is like asking a scientist 'What happened before the big bang?' in that in each case they will most likely tell you that there was no 'before'.

In many ways asking a theist 'What happened before god?' is like asking a scientist 'What happened before the big bang?' in that in each case they will most likely tell you that there was no 'before'.

Indeed. In each case faith dictates the answer.

There is? Well maybe you should tell the Catholic Church and most other significant branches of Christianity about this 'misreading' and inform them of the true reading that only you seem to be aware of as they have been wrestling with this particular problem for many hundreds of years.


You are of course free to be 'convinced' of anything you like but the fact of the matter is that yours is not the understanding of original sin adopted by most significant branches of Christianity and it is the obviously the widespread understanding of the concept and the difficulties it puts people in that I was referring to.

I know plek and all I can do is to urge people to read the Bible for themselves (not the twisted version the atheists put out) rather than be told what is says by Bertrand Russell and others.

I believe the innocents who have not sinned be they unborn or handicapped will be on the highest plane as they are "untarnished" by sin

Thank you and I second that. :thumbsup:

Indeed. In each case faith dictates the answer.
The scientist's answer would be a belief backed by theory & evidence and whilst that theory and evidence may not be as rock solid as something like evolution, unlike a theist they don't need 'faith' (that is to say belief in the absence of evidence) to give that answer.

I know plek and all I can do is to urge people to read the Bible for themselves (not the twisted version the atheists put out) rather than be told what is says by Bertrand Russell and others.
But Grahame I haven't made reference to Russell or any other atheist thinkers in this thread, all my posts on the subject of original sin have unlike yours been firmly based upon beliefs held in mainstream Christianity.

Thank you all so much for your answers, and thankyou especially Grahame and Plekhanov for not fighting.
I really wonder about these things it's the period when man first apeared and would be classed as human rather than animal for the first time that I'm really interested in.
Jabbers, I'm not stalking you by the way, you have inspired this thread with two of your own this week.
1, A question for religious types (or whatever it was called)
2, re-classifying chimps as human beings.

If chimps were re-classified as human would they then have a human soul and be capable of religious worship and sin?

Sorry I'm full of questions tonight.

Chimps have all ready been re-classified as Labour voters. Religious Worshippers are classified as idiots.

I didn't ask what happened before christ, I asked what happened before god.

Before the concept of god

Before the concept of God, there was no ego or self-aware consciousness in a form we would recognise.

There was only a disembodied voice, schizophrenic style, that emanated from one hemisphere in Wernicke's area, crossed the corpus callosum (sp?) and arrived in the other hemisphere as verbal instructions.

This was the 'voice of god' telling you what's what. There was no concept of god, it was just there telling you what to do at any given juncture.

In this way, humans organised themselves in societies much like ants do - unconsciously.

When this arrangement broke down at around the time of Homer, for reasons unknown, the Ego emerged to take over the 'speaking role' in the mind,
and the 'I' we now both recognise as the seat of consciousness is the 'God' or 'Gods' of old.

So before the concept of God existed, God seemingly spoke directly to us and there was no need of the concept. The concept is simply a hangover from an era before the existence of the conscious individual.

It's been widely discredited (Jaynes' 'Origins of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind') but well worth a read for the ideas he introduces early in the book. It gets a bit heavy the deeper you go though. He also does a better job of explaining it....

By definition almost, the Judeo-Christian God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent so exists outside of space and time, although this causes some philosophical problems (but not as many as if God were subject to time and space constraints).

Does this mean god speaks to ants directly?

I don't mean that to sound like I'm being funny but as I said I'm questioning everything tonight.

Can there be a 'before' god ... assuming that 'god' is both the source and the manifestation of all physical reality, space and time.

Or taking 'god' to be a (religious) concept - the echo of a word playing in your mind, before that got in your head, what then? Can you remember?

:love:

Does this mean god speaks to ants directly?

I don't mean that to sound like I'm being funny but as I said I'm questioning everything tonight.


It means that God used to speak to people directly. There was no concept of God, any more than I have a concept of my own leg. It was just there.

Then, maybe 3000 years ago, something happened. The voice stopped being God and started being Me, and the Me bit wondered what happened to God.

This could be interpreted as the 'Babel Incident' - when things started to go pear shaped.

Maybe In the beginning God was a bit of a snob and didn't like the types that were rushing into his one time peaceful neighbourhood, Heaven.
Eventually God got so fed up with the overcrowding and with the undesirables problem he decided that their should be some sort of vetting system.
God was a busy guy so he asked his one time pal Satan to look after the other place which he decided to call Hell, Satan said "on one condition, that you let me have complete automonmy."
God said," I don't have a problem with that, surely it's better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."
God sent word to his prophets on Earth to spread the word and call this thing religion.
The new vetting system was simple, from that day forth of it's inception anyone that wanted to get to Heaven had to follow one of the religions if they chose not to then they would go to Hell.:thumbsup: