After a disastrous result that leaves England 3rd in the table, is now the time for McClaren to go?

In my opinion McClaren is totally out of his depth.

1st mistake he made as manager was sacking Beckham, since then it's been all downhill.

What has he done in his managerial career that made him a candidate for this job?

I'm so :mad:

i don't think he made a mistake with beckham but he should never have got the job in the first place. Are we really so bereft of talant that we have to use 2 right footed players on the left hand side.

This current England side need a good kick up the arse, a bit of the fear factor driving them and the manager needs to pick the best team which are not always the 'best' players....Mclaren lacks gravitas to do this - he'll be playing Carragher in the net at this rate

They need a very strong manager and one who has several 'been there and done' that T shirts...a Roy Keane type figure...someone f*****g scary to move their millionaire backsides

Mr O Neil anyone?

Well, the majority so far think it's time for him to go. Is there anybody here who is going to stick up for him?

This current England side need a good kick up the arse, a bit of the fear factor driving them and the manager needs to pick the best team which are not always the 'best' players....Mclaren lacks gravitas to do this - he'll be playing Carragher in the net at this rate

They need a very strong manager and one who has several 'been there and done' that T shirts...a Roy Keane type figure...someone f*****g scary to move their millionaire backsides

Mr O Neil anyone?
The trouble with this England side is that it is massively overrated. We have gone 41 years since winning the World Cup and the next trophy isn't even in sight, yet we still pretend we are a major footballing power, despite failing to qualify for three World Cups and at least two European Championships since then. We have to blame the press and media for making out our players to be better than what they really are, bulling them into potential World Cup winners before the champagne goes as flat as a Cameron joke. Our players can't perform against half decent opponents, and this is a malaise not just confined to football.

England certainly has the players but they can't play as a team. Germany doesn't have half of the talent as most of the England players but the manage to play as a team and that is our problem. Look at Spain. Quality players but have never done anything with the National team!

The trouble with this England side is that it is massively overrated. We have gone 41 years since winning the World Cup and the next trophy isn't even in sight, yet we still pretend we are a major footballing power, despite failing to qualify for three World Cups and at least two European Championships since then. We have to blame the press and media for making out our players to be better than what they really are, bulling them into potential World Cup winners before the champagne goes as flat as a Cameron joke. Our players can't perform against half decent opponents, and this is a malaise not just confined to football.

We have two centre backs, a left back, a centre midfield and a centre forward who would walk into any international team or club side in the world - that is a good start for any manager

Hang on you lot.

Firstly, England aren't that great, and home tournaments, and Italy 90 apart, have been a 'good second division' international outfit. Nothing more, nothing less. No more or less equipped to win a tournament, or qualify than many others. More so than my mob, but still, second division.

Secondly, Israel aren't that bad a side, especially at home, so an away draw isn't a bad result. Granted, I think you should have won, but it's not the worst away point ever.

Thirdly, why is there this hysteria when you don't win a match? Had you had the results my mob managed to inflict on us (5-2 away to Cyprus, an embarrassingly won match in San Marino), then moan.

Fourthly, by most English fans' admission, there isn't the home grown talent, so why blame the manager if he can't find a World Cup winning side?

Sheesh ..........

Shocking tactics, Shocking performance, Shocking manager, Shocking substitutions,
GET HIM OUT AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The trouble with this England side is that it is massively overrated. We have gone 41 years since winning the World Cup and the next trophy isn't even in sight, yet we still pretend we are a major footballing power, despite failing to qualify for three World Cups and at least two European Championships since then. We have to blame the press and media for making out our players to be better than what they really are, bulling them into potential World Cup winners before the champagne goes as flat as a Cameron joke. Our players can't perform against half decent opponents, and this is a malaise not just confined to football.

Apologies firecracker; you have effectively answered my questions.

We have two centre backs, a left back, a centre midfield and a centre forward who would walk into any international team or club side in the world - that is a good start for any manager

5/11. 6/11 if you mean two centre mifielders. Without subs. My lot have a keeper, a left winger, right winger, arguably a left back, and a forward. 5/11 too. Neither Stan nor McLaren can find suitable talent for the other 6 (11 including subs) places.

Can anybody explain the logic behind the substitutions tonight?

Can any1 explain why maclaren got the job in the first place.
He,s pants.

Can any1 explain why maclaren got the job in the first place.
He,s pants.

Doesn't exactly give you much confidence even in his interviews does he?

He didn,t even know what to say when he was interviewed on sky afterwards, he,s clueless.

Can any1 explain why maclaren got the job in the first place.
He,s pants.

I agree with that.

Replacing him now would be a waste of time. If we don't qualify for the euros he should be sacked. For me he's the worst coach we've had in a long time,and thats after 5 years of Ericsson.

I agree with that.

Replacing him now would be a waste of time. If we don't qualify for the euros he should be sacked. For me he's the worst coach we've had in a long time,and thats after 5 years of Ericsson.

Why wait until that happens?

who could you bring in to replace him and then turn things around at such short notice??

who could you bring in to replace him and then turn things around at such short notice??

They buggered things up with Scolari. He's the man for the job.

I 1000000000000000% agree. But with the FA cocking that up so bad he'll never come here.

You mean the press did, any1 with a bit of nounce steers clear of the England job as its the most pressured job in football.
Like they said on sky, is the team really as good as we think they are.

You mean the press did, any1 with a bit of nounce steers clear of the England job as its the most pressured job in football.
Like they said on sky, is the team really as good as we think they are.

There is no TEAM. We need a manager to make one.

I don,t think you can blame it all on the manager they had chances today england and failed misrably.
The players have to take some responsability they earn enough.

I don,t think you can blame it all on the manager they had chances today england and failed misrably.
The players have to take some responsability they earn enough.

TBH they just didn't look like they would score. They were too slow on the ball and lacking of ideas.

It needs a whole new rethink if it means bringing beckham back then so be it, but until we change this agenda of keeping the ball in our own half for most of the game we will get worse.
We might aswell play the long ball if where going to play possesion football to that magnitude.
How boring was it man i was tempted to switch the cricket on to keep me awake lol.
No i like cricket really.

My god, I've just got back from work, and was so busy I forgot about the game...0-0, was it really bad?

What were these substitutions?

TBH they just didn't look like they would score. They were too slow on the ball and lacking of ideas.

But hang on mate, maybe it's that Israel have caught up with England? The way I read some of these posts is that England have a divine right to win these matches. Well guess what fellahs? You don't.

Get off your high horses.

I can't disagree that you should have won on stats, etc., but at the end of the day Israel did a job. You'll easily qualify, I honestly think, but Israel have to try to look at second place. The other year, my mob conceded two very late goals in both matches against Israel, which cost us qualification.

As you are playing at the moment, you are close to being the same as us. That may be management; that may be down to lack of quality.

Whichever way, good luck!

My god, I've just got back from work, and was so busy I forgot about the game...0-0, was it really bad?

What were these substitutions?

It was truly dreadful. Almost as bad as the Ireland v Irish Non Swimmers match just beforehand.

It was truly dreadful. Almost as bad as the Ireland v Irish Non Swimmers match just beforehand.

That might be why there was so much bother in town tonight :rolleyes:

That might be why there was so much bother in town tonight :rolleyes:

Ireland v Wales? Wouldn't have thought so.

Ireland v Wales? Wouldn't have thought so.

I meant the England game. :hihi: (quoted wrong one)

Loads of fighting on Carver St tonight:rolleyes:

I meant the England game. :hihi: (quoted wrong one)

Loads of fighting on Carver St tonight:rolleyes:

Average Saturday then, Blade .......

Average Saturday then, Blade .......

yup. I know from experience as I'm sure everyone in here knows how a Saturday night after a poor footy result can mean a crap night out.

Luckily I manage to not resort to knocking someone out/be knocked out. :hihi:

Hang on you lot.

Firstly, England aren't that great, and home tournaments, and Italy 90 apart, have been a 'good second division' international outfit. Nothing more, nothing less. No more or less equipped to win a tournament, or qualify than many others. More so than my mob, but still, second division.

Secondly, Israel aren't that bad a side, especially at home, so an away draw isn't a bad result. Granted, I think you should have won, but it's not the worst away point ever.

Thirdly, why is there this hysteria when you don't win a match? Had you had the results my mob managed to inflict on us (5-2 away to Cyprus, an embarrassingly won match in San Marino), then moan.

Fourthly, by most English fans' admission, there isn't the home grown talent, so why blame the manager if he can't find a World Cup winning side?

Sheesh ..........


Israel were poor. At home in the past Israel have been a decent side but last night they were missing key players and they were there for the taking.

I think Shearer made a great point on MOTD. Crosses going into the box and we have only two players in the penalty area. The ghost of Sven lives on!

The whole side looks as if it lacks confidence and I think that stems from the management downward. I have a sneaky feeling the players don't rate the manager.

It would be a surprise move if they axed Mclaren and we still may qualify. However, this current England squad will not develop into better players at international level with this current manager.

Mclaren was a political appointment not a footballing one. The FA wanted squeeky clean after the tabloid shananigans of Sven.

5/11. 6/11 if you mean two centre mifielders. Without subs. My lot have a keeper, a left winger, right winger, arguably a left back, and a forward. 5/11 too. Neither Stan nor McLaren can find suitable talent for the other 6 (11 including subs) places.

You build teams around the spine.

We have world class going through the spine of this current team - from centre backs, centre midfield and centre forward. You don't need 11 world class players you need to build the team around these players. Then give them the tactics and confidence to go out there and perform on the park.

This is why there is so much head scratching. This team IMHO are not overhyped they are underperforming at international level.

Why?

bring back beckham:thumbsup:

bring back beckham:thumbsup:

Bring back to Charlton:thumbsup:

You build teams around the spine.

We have world class going through the spine of this current team - from centre backs, centre midfield and centre forward. You don't need 11 world class players you need to build the team around these players. Then give them the tactics and confidence to go out there and perform on the park.

This is why there is so much head scratching. This team IMHO are not overhyped they are underperforming at international level.

Why?

I disagree, I would rather have 11 players on the pitch reading from the same book.
That was the biggest problem last night, they looked as though they didn,t know each other, and theres too many "big name" players in one team.
It needs freshening up for wednesday.

And the team chosen to represent England in the next qualifying match is:
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Scunthorpe United! :thumbsup:

I'd like to see McClaren gone asap he underperformed at Middlesbrough despite spending plenty of cash and unsurprisingly he's also underperforming now despite having a good bunch of players.

In G. Neville. Cole, Rio, Terry, Hargreaves/Carrick, Gerrard/Lampard and Rooney McClaren has a core of 1st choice players for champions league teams. Along side those he has quality players like Lennon, Defoe, Johnson to fill in the gaps yet McClaren has yet to demonstrate he can even coming close to either putting together a balanced team that can play as one or getting good personal performances out of the far from poor players he has available to him.

His player selection also leaves much to be desired Carragher at left back ffs! Carragher's a good solid defensive player but not a left back and picking him above Gareth Barry especially against a team with as little attacking threat as Israel is just mystifying. Given the lack of a left footed winger England could really have done with someone like Barry to put in good crosses from the left.

Aside from his weird refusal to play Barry McClaren also needs to get quit trying to play Gerrard and Lampard together atleast for a few games, just how many times to these guys need to show that they can't play together? It's time to try something different.

McClaren was the "safe" appointment the FA were panicked into making after the Scolari fiasco.The guy is clearly out of his depth,looks good in front of the cameras and makes the right noises, but that`s about it.This is the man who was head coach under Sven for 5 years and was largely responsible for the mediocrity we endured under him.Having said that I do think his shortcomings hide much larger problems within our game.Personally i think our so called "world class" players are vastly overhyped and overrated.We arn`t as good as we think we are.Premiership football is fast paced and exciting but dosn`t produce players,or coaches,with the technical ability to perform from at the very highest level. Premiership football is a fantastic product,but is too cash orientated.It is overloaded with foreign players so young English players rarely get a chance.Clubs with cash will always go for the quick fix of buying instant quality rather than take time to develop young talent.You can`t blame them in a way because it`s such a ruthless,results driven business.It`s no suprise that many of the larger clubs are seriously considering scrapping their acadamies.The "stars" we have are on such high wages I feel that sub-consiously they are in the comfort zone.Where is the motivation to perform when you know you are going to pick up 100k per week no matter what?Not hungry enough i`m afraid.Our clubs enjoy some success in Europe but a large portion of that can be atributed to forgeign players and european club football is totally different to the international game.Why do we try and play a continental passing game with slow,considered build up which is totally alien to what they do for their clubs on a Saturday?I feel we should try and play to our strengths(ie a high tempo,pressing game)rather than try and be something we ar`nt.Until fundamental changes are made to the structure of our national game we will never be any more than a quarter-final side.You can only work with the material you have got i`m afraid.

bring back beckham:thumbsup:

He won't bring back Beckham, won't want to admit he's made a mistake in dropping him in the first place.

Sad state of affairs isn,t it.

Onwards and upwards

For the next game - here's my twopenneth

Rest Lampard and Terry

Push Gerrard into centre midfield and make him Captain - give this lad more responsibility and he will pay you back dividends

Play three up front....Rooney, Johnson and Bent

Give Scott Parker a run out second half and a few others if we go a couple of goals up.

Let's see a bit of competition for places.

Can any1 explain why maclaren got the job in the first place.
He,s pants.

Yeah - wasn't he third choice behind Scolari and another, and the FA had to go to him as it was all dragging on.

I only saw the 2nd half last night - and that was 45 mins too much.

Totally agree with dropping Lampard - he does nothing in an England shirt - that might just free Gerrard up a bit.

I think the real problem may be linked to the foreign influx into the game which is showing us for what we are - very limited with very few exceptions.

Mclaren has to go - get someone with guts and passion in before its toolate.

Mclaren has to go - get someone with guts and passion in before its toolate.

I'd much rather have tactical nous and ability to get the best out of the players than "guts and passion".

He won't bring back Beckham, won't want to admit he's made a mistake in dropping him in the first place.
Dropping Beckham wasn't a mistake it was move that was long overdue, and removed an under performing untouchable who was way past his best from the team.

Totally agree with dropping Lampard - he does nothing in an England shirt - that might just free Gerrard up a bit.
Lampard was considerably better than Gerrard yesterday.

I'd much rather have tactical nous and ability to get the best out of the players than "guts and passion".

Second choice steve hasn't even got nous.

Second choice steve hasn't even got nous.
He does have very shiny teeth though.

Towards the end of the match, there was a shot of McClaren looking around sheepishly at his coaching staff. A bloke in the pub shouted; "Sven's not there anymore mate, you're the manager now".

He shouldn't have got the job.

The squad selection was a joke.

The performance was mediocre at best, save for a few bright sparks from Lennon.


Johnson...Rooney

Lennon...Lampard...Hargreaves...Gerrard

Carragher...Ferdinand...Terry...Neville

Robinson


Surely a more balanced squad would have worked better;


Defoe...Rooney

Downing...Gerrard...Hargreaves...Lennon

Barry...Ferdinand...Terry...Carragher

Robinson

Second choice steve hasn't even got nous.

McLaren is poor and should be dumped asap - but we need a proper replacement . To be honest I can't see any English born manager being up to the job even though a few do have "guts and passion".

Surely a more balanced squad would have worked better;


Defoe...Rooney

Downing...Gerrard...Hargreaves...Lennon

Barry...Ferdinand...Terry...Carragher

Robinson
Indeed though I think Carragher at fullback is a bit negative when facing a side as poor as Israel.

McLaren is poor and should be dumped asap - but we need a proper replacement . To be honest I can't see any English born manager being up to the job even though a few do have "guts and passion".
Sam Allardyce would have been a much better choice, he's done very well at Bolton with far less cash that McClaren enjoyed at Middlesbrough and unlike assorted other managers who've done well for a season or two after getting promotion to the premiership before dropping off again shown that his success more than just a flash in the pan.

Indeed though I think Carragher at fullback is a bit negative when facing a side as poor as Israel.

They're really not as bad as people make out, and England certainly aren't good as people expect.

This qualifying series, they have an honourable away draw to Russia, and a decent result v the Ukraine. Granted, it was a poor result in Estonia, but it was a shock, certainly not expected.

In the 2006 qualifiers, they went 10 matches unbeaten (albeit with 6 draws - 2 v Ireland in the last minute - grrrrrr). Not too many international sides can say that.

Dropping Beckham wasn't a mistake it was move that was long overdue, and removed an under performing untouchable who was way past his best from the team.

If that's the case, why hasn't he dropped Lampard. He hasn't done anything for ages. Not saying Lampard is past his best but he's not performing for England.

If that's the case, why hasn't he dropped Lampard. He hasn't done anything for ages. Not saying Lampard is past his best but he's not performing for England.
Beckham has been in decline for several years now and putting in poor performances for England for years whilst getting picked above first Wright Phillips and now Lennon when they gave every indication that they would do a better job, just recently Lampard has put in a few below par performances but not for anything like the duration Beckham did.

To be fair these players Lampard,gerrard,terry,rooney, are all playing with world class players at club level and obviously they are getting found out at international level.
They play **** hot in the premiership cause they have other top of the range players in every position to rely on.
That isn,t the case with the england team look at the second 11 what england have got there not that good.
Italy u21s yesterday were brilliant and ripped englands defence apart, these are players what our supposed promising players are going to play against for the next 10 years they won,t stand a chance.
Some of the players in the u21s are not very promising to say the least.

To be fair these players Lampard,gerrard,terry,rooney, are all playing with world class players at club level and obviously they are getting found out at international level.
They play **** hot in the premiership cause they have other top of the range players in every position to rely on.
That isn,t the case with the england team look at the second 11 what england have got there not that good.
Now that's just wrong, look at what happened to Chelsea's defence when Terry was injured, and United's season when Rio was banned for missing that drug test, each player is the lynch pin of extremely good defences.

If you think Gerrard has only ever shone because he's got 'top of the range players in every position to rely on' then you clearly haven't been paying attention as over the years he's frequently had to play with some mediocre and at times frankly rubbish players and it has frequently been him who brought his team through.

As for Lampard he has been putting in quality performances for years at Chelsea and out scoring most strikers and was doing so before Abramovich's cash brought the rest of the team up to his level.

Rooney shone at Everton where he was by no means surrounded by 'other top of the range players in every position to rely on'.

England may not have truly world class players in every good position but we certainly have players who are more than good enough to be top of rather than 3rd in what is a very easy qualifying group if only we had a manager who was up to the job.

just recently Lampard has put in a few below par performances

Just recently as in the last 2 years in competitive games?

What we haven't got our heads round yet is that in the prem most teams push up the back four near to the halfway line and the midfield try to win the ball back where the move broke down - which means that pacy players like Johnson, or players with an eye for the killer pass like Rooney, have space between the back four and the penalty area to use.

Most international sides when they lose the ball just funnel back to within the last 30 yards - and we seemingly haven't got enough skillful players to open up those defences.

England may not have truly world class players in every good position but we certainly have players who are more than good enough to be top of rather than 3rd in what is a very easy qualifying group if only we had a manager who was up to the job.

No. You have very good players, but not enough to make a very good side. I'll certainly agree that McLaren isn't the best candidate to continue the job, but realistically, in many areas you have average players. I certainly agree that a good start would be to play Barry though.

You will easily qualify, but not 'stylishly'.

I voted no, but only because I think it would be too risky trying to bring someone else in now. He's crap though.

I'd like to see a few of the big players not performing dropped. No one will complain if he tries something different and fails.

I'd give a game to Defoe, Carrick and Kieran Richardson.

I voted no, but only because I think it would be too risky trying to bring someone else in now. He's crap though.

I'd like to see a few of the big players not performing dropped. No one will complain if he tries something different and fails.

I'd give a game to Defoe, Carrick and Kieran Richardson.

Kieran Richardson??
Not on your life.

He even failed to perform for the U-21s on Saturday.

Kieran Richardson??
Not on your life.

He even failed to perform for the U-21s on Saturday.

I think he's always done really well when playing for England. Yes, he's always played against poorer teams, but Israel aren't world beaters are they.

Rather have him on the left than Downing or someone playing out of position. I don't think we have anything to lose by giving him a start.

who could you bring in to replace him and then turn things around at such short notice??

Arsene Wenger - and he's hinted that he would be interested....

Has anybody heard 2nd choice steves interview on bbc radio?

'Can we not knock it ?!?!'

Do people still think we need an english manager now then?
I hate to say I told you so - but by god... I told you so!!

We DONT need an english manager - because it will just end up like this again, we need a foreign coach with more continental ideas and I'm all for Fabio Cappello to sort us out as he will be out of Real Madrid in the summer it seems.

Do people still think we need an english manager now then?
I hate to say I told you so - but by god... I told you so!!

We DONT need an english manager - because it will just end up like this again, we need a foreign coach with more continental ideas and I'm all for Fabio Cappello to sort us out as he will be out of Real Madrid in the summer it seems.

Ah yes, lets hire a continental manager who has succeeded in Serie A. Nothing could possibly go wrong could it?

Would anything be wrong with giving the job to terry venables

Ah yes, lets hire a continental manager who has succeeded in Serie A. Nothing could possibly go wrong could it?

Or we could just give it to Martin O'Neil couldnt we - and we all know how successful he has been over the years in europe and beyond havent we :roll:

English managers suck donkey's ass mate ... time for a european coach.. Scolari or Cappello - or even better - lets have Lippi in the role.

Would anything be wrong with giving the job to terry venables

Yes. Circular reasoning:thumbsup:

Would anything be wrong with giving the job to terry venables

Now, I actually enjoyed the time Terry Venners was at the helm - because we played attacking football and we were actually good to watch.. I wonder what it would be like with him at the helm again to be honest.

Or we could just give it to Martin O'Neil couldnt we - and we all know how successful he has been over the years in europe and beyond havent we :roll:

English managers suck donkey's ass mate ... time for a european coach.. Scolari or Cappello - or even better - lets have Lippi in the role.

Don't be stupid JD man. O'Neill is the manager that all of the Home Nations (I'll include Ireland in that) ALL want. Watch O'Neill fly next year as his possibilities are realised.

There was never a chance of him ever turning up at Bramall Lane, but believe me, I'd have rather had an O'Neill side at Paradise, than a Strachan side.

Steve Coppell's name never seems to come up as a possibility for an English manager... Is he so poor compared to the likes of SCS and Allardyce? Or has he just got more sense than to go anywhere near the job?

Steve Coppell's name never seems to come up as a possibility for an English manager... Is he so poor compared to the likes of SCS and Allardyce? Or has he just got more sense than to go anywhere near the job?
Coppell has had one (well actually not even a whole one yet) good season at the highest level for all we know next year Reading could do a Wigan or Westham and plunge back down the table.

Plenty of teams have one good season after gaining promotion Allardyce is amongst the few who've built on and solidified that early success, unlike Jewell or Pardew for example and this last last year people were talking about them for the England job.

Coppell has had one (well actually not even a whole one yet) good season at the highest level for all we know next year Reading could do a Wigan or Westham and plunge back down the table.

Plenty of teams have one good season after gaining promotion Allardyce is amongst the few who've built on and solidified that early success, unlike Jewell or Pardew for example and this last last year people were talking about them for the England job.

Right for the wrong reasons. His managerial record stacks up, as anyone who remembers the Palace side of the early nineties will confirm and I think England would benefit enormously if he got involved somehow. However, under the 'ability to handle pressure' column, he scores a 1 out 10 - see his time at Man City, so I think the managers position is out of the question.

Blimey - this thread is like the boardroom scene in Mike Bassett: England Manager!

Coppell couldn't take the pressure of the England job

Bring back Kevin Keegan! The results won;t be any better but it'll be more of a laugh!

Would anything be wrong with giving the job to terry venables

The man is obsessed with playing an offside trap; including against an opposition with fast skillful forwards.

I've seen enough of it, to last a lifetime.

Our back four standing in a line all with their arms up in the air; whilst a decent opposition waltzes through and scores.

I've seen Brazil do it. I don't want to see Russia do it.

On the other hand I'd like to see us put a few chances away.

I know he's too old now; but "Ron" would have made a good England manager.

The trouble with this England side is that it is massively overrated. We have gone 41 years since winning the World Cup and the next trophy isn't even in sight, yet we still pretend we are a major footballing power, despite failing to qualify for three World Cups and at least two European Championships since then. We have to blame the press and media for making out our players to be better than what they really are, bulling them into potential World Cup winners before the champagne goes as flat as a Cameron joke. Our players can't perform against half decent opponents, and this is a malaise not just confined to football.

Absolulty agree. There just isnt the talent. Every half decent player that comes through is the next big thing but half have them have faded by 22.
The white shirt and badge alone dont give us the right to consder ourselves favourites all along.

Blimey - this thread is like the boardroom scene in Mike Bassett: England Manager!

We might as well have given it to Ricky Tomlinson!:hihi: :D

I think McLarens out of his depth but it's easy to blame the manager when the team fails and praise the players when they win. There're a few out there who need to put in big performances on Wednesday and repay some of the (unjust) faith that McLaren has put in them.

The bloke who used to run Farepac hampers has a bit of free time on his hands now, and is probably just as useful.

The man is obsessed with playing an offside trap; including against an opposition with fast skillful forwards.

I've seen enough of it, to last a lifetime.

Our back four standing in a line all with their arms up in the air; whilst a decent opposition waltzes through and scores.

I've seen Brazil do it. I don't want to see Russia do it.

On the other hand I'd like to see us put a few chances away.

I know he's too old now; but "Ron" would have made a good England manager.

Yes, Big Ron would have been a perfect for the top job.

Put aside his recent indiscretions he is a footballing man through and through. He would have been a bit flash for Soho Square but the players would have loved him and win, lose or draw we would have played good football. How he would have faired with the tabloids would have been a fascinating contest:)

Absolulty agree. There just isnt the talent. Every half decent player that comes through is the next big thing but half have them have faded by 22.
The white shirt and badge alone dont give us the right to consder ourselves favourites all along.
Please consider the context of this thread, we aren't complaining because we failed to beat Argentina, Italy or similar that would be fair enough as I think they do have better players than us.

This thread is sparked by England having yet another terrible game and failing to beat a side we should have comfortably beaten and consequently being 3rd in one of the easiest qualifying groups after 5 games.

There is easily enough talent in the players McClaren has available to him to beat Israel and be top of our group it is down to him that we didn't and aren't.

Please consider the context of this thread, we aren't complaining because we failed to beat Argentina, Italy or similar that would be fair enough as I think they do have better players than us.

This thread is sparked by England having yet another terrible game and failing to beat a side we should have comfortably beaten and consequently being 3rd in one of the easiest qualifying groups after 5 games.

There is easily enough talent in the players McClaren has available to him to beat Israel and be top of our group it is down to him that we didn't and aren't.


Please consider the facts. The England teams record over the last 40 years simply does not support the statement that "we should have comfortably beaten" Israel.

Please consider the context of this thread, we aren't complaining because we failed to beat Argentina, Italy or similar that would be fair enough as I think they do have better players than us.

I have, by explaining that Israel aren't the whipping boys they once were. Others have by explaining that England's national side is vastly overrated.

This thread is sparked by England having yet another terrible game and failing to beat a side we should have comfortably beaten and consequently being 3rd in one of the easiest qualifying groups after 5 games.

There is easily enough talent in the players McClaren has available to him to beat Israel and be top of our group it is down to him that we didn't and aren't.

I honestly think you will definitely qualify, but Saturday's match was an under-performance from Israel as much as England.

You're almost talking as if you have a divine right to qualify. Russia and the Ukraine have just as strong claims to qualify as England, and Israel (as I've pointed out before) are difficult to beat. Unbeaten in the last set of qualifiers, which included France, Ireland and Switzerland; all recent qualifiers for international competitions.

We lost on penalties to a Spanish side who but for bizarre refereeing against South Korea, could have gone on to be in the final, at least, and France were recently World Cup Winners, of course.

Not a bad set against which to be unbeaten in my book.

Please consider the facts. The England teams record over the last 40 years simply does not support the statement that "we should have comfortably beaten" Israel.
What does it matter what happened 40 or even 10 years ago? Look at the players available to us compared to those available to Israel, England are stronger in every single position, we should have beaten them.

Please consider the facts. The England teams record over the last 40 years simply does not support the statement that "we should have comfortably beaten" Israel.

Forty years ago we were the world champions.

We should have beaten an understrength and poor Israel side

I have, by explaining that Israel aren't the whipping boys they once were. Others have by explaining that England's national side is vastly overrated.

I honestly think you will definitely qualify, but Saturday's match was an under-performance from Israel as much as England.

You're almost talking as if you have a divine right to qualify.
No I am not, if we were in Scotland's group for example I wouldn't necessarily expect us to qualify. I'm not claiming that England should beat anybody and everybody just that we should be doing a lot better than we are in our current qualifying campaign considering the quality of the opposition we've faced.

Russia and the Ukraine have just as strong claims to qualify as England,
Seeing as Ukraine aren't in our groups I'd say they have a very very weak claim.

and Israel (as I've pointed out before) are difficult to beat.
Maybe they usually are good well drilled side but they were rubbish last Saturday and a half decent England side would have comfortable beaten them.

What does it matter what happened 40 or even 10 years ago? Look at the players available to us compared to those available to Israel, England are stronger in every single position, we should have beaten them.

No. This isn't a one-on-one bout of footballing skills between individuals. This is a team game.

While England has some extremely talented individuals, (not enough, I might add), it hasn't acted as a unit since Hoddle's short tenure. I'm thinking specifically of the game in Rome which secured qualification to the '98 World Cup.

I also think there are some players who are way above their station, and some who are simply not international class.

Seeing as Ukraine aren't in our groups I'd say they have a very very weak claim.

Not in our group either! It was a friendly v Israel - apologies for the error, ahem .....

<fx: coughs>

What does it matter what happened 40 or even 10 years ago? Look at the players available to us compared to those available to Israel, England are stronger in every single position, we should have beaten them.

It matters because since we won the World Cup forty years ago we have a record of overwhelming but consistent mediocrity.

In World Cup finals we have beaten precisely two sides of genuine note - France in 1982 and Argentina in 2002.

In European Championship matches over the same period we rank only in tenth place. Greece and Denmark have lifted the trophy. Have we?

How does our record compare to Germanys?

We did not score a goal against Israel therefore we should not have beaten them.

The misconception that England should beat all-comers is out of kilter with the facts.

No. This isn't a one-on-one bout of footballing skills between individuals. This is a team game.
Well that's rather my point isn't it, the England manager currently has a more than respectable group of players to pick his team from, yet hasn't shown any sign of assembling a team, the responsibility for this lies with him.

I thought Terry Butchers comments were spot on regarding the players

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/6498701.stm

It matters because since we won the World Cup forty years ago we have a record of overwhelming but consistent mediocrity.

In World Cup finals we have beaten precisely two sides of genuine note - France in 1982 and Argentina in 2002.

In European Championship matches over the same period we rank only in tenth place. Greece and Denmark have lifted the trophy. Have we?

How does our record compare to Germanys?
Yes and? What does any of this have to do with whether or not the current England manager should be doing better than he is with the players he has at his disposal?

We did not score a goal against Israel therefore we should not have beaten them.
Don't be obtuse, I'm clearly not saying 'we should have beaten them' in the sense that we played well and didn't get the result we deserved but in the sense that given the players he has available McClaren should have put together a side which should have been able to comfortably beat Israel who were very poor last saturday.

The misconception that England should beat all-comers is out of kilter with the facts.
I have specifically said that I do not think England 'should beat all-comers' will you please stop pretending that I did.

Today is the day for maclaren if he doesn,t produce the goods tonight he has to go,or he will turn into another graham taylor, he,ll get tortured.

Well that's rather my point isn't it, the England manager currently has a more than respectable group of players to pick his team from, yet hasn't shown any sign of assembling a team, the responsibility for this lies with him.

Clearly not, as you did say that in ALL positions you were superior (innuendos allowed at this point). England, as I've said before, haven't had the look of a unit since Hoddle.

England are not as good as you think.

Today is the day for maclaren if he doesn,t produce the goods tonight he has to go,or he will turn into another graham taylor, he,ll get tortured.

He's being tortured already corky, and was a lamb to the slaughter. Our match v Slovakia could be a turning point. We've given up hope of qualification (nearly), but a defeat tomorrow must be the bell tolling for Stan ......

Good luck everybody by the way!

We expect that we should be challenging all the time when in truth we are over hyped. However we are permanently looking for excuses.

The French win the world cup, we decide its coz they have the Fontaine Academy so they start springing up everywhere here.Our Fa becomes obsessed with academys.
(The truth is of course they just have some f*cking great players.Of ocurse we look for things other than that)

Then it was foreign coaches. Erikksons record in the Italain league is brilliant thats what we need ! We decided.
(The truth is that in a negative league like that then coaches who get lots of draws will win things)

Brazil win with a Brazilian coach. Thats what we decide we need.
(This time they might be right but they cock it up!)

Theres talk of the U21's and U18's acting as feeder teams to the main team.


Then it had to be McLaren, as the FA got obsessed with'coaching'.
(
All of this is of course tosh.

Winning international tournaments is about getting a group of 'decent' players together. Forging a good spirit and getting results over a 5/6 game month.
As for managers. Forget master tacticians, they might be needed over 46 games in the league, but not here. Forget top coaches, with all their badges A manager who can win cups is the man we need, never mind all this obsession with re building the entire system.

Somebody mentioned earlier Atkinson and thats exactly the sort of person you need. Never won a league title, teams faded. But cups....he's got them coming out of his ears. Good at motivating and getting the best out of players. And again ask any player about the team spirit . Not saying it should be him, just using him as a template.

Why do our FA and the people given the power always over complicate somethintg which is glaringly obvious.

sorry.....i'm going on again....sorry folks.:shakes:

pah.
I'll go for a lie down.

Yes and? What does any of this have to do with whether or not the current England manager should be doing better than he is with the players he has at his disposal?


Don't be obtuse, I'm clearly not saying 'we should have beaten them' in the sense that we played well and didn't get the result we deserved but in the sense that given the players he has available McClaren should have put together a side which should have been able to comfortably beat Israel who were very poor last saturday.


I have specifically said that I do not think England 'should beat all-comers' will you please stop pretending that I did.


The point is, which you appear unable to understand,is that the players he does have are not as good as you believe they are. Did you see the World Cup?

England squads over the last forty years have had equally good players but
the teams still won nothing. Is Paul Robinson better than Peter Shilton? Is John Terry better than Des Walker or is Andrew Johnson better than Kevin Keegan was?

In reality the current squad is not significantly better than at any time over the last forty years and therefore to expect anything other than the same mediocrity would be... what's the word ....obtuse.

If you want to be taken seriously you really must bring something more to the table than justyour opinion that these players are good enough
and ''should'' beat Israel. How about some evidence? The results say these players are over hyped and that the quality of the team is greatly exaggerated.

The reason why the England lads look good for there respective clubs is that they have better players around them.Last night England were terrible,the passing was disgusting & I do not think changing the manager will make the slightest difference.

I do not think changing the manager will make the slightest difference.

No because every manager would pick Carragher and P Neville as fullbacks wouldn't they ?
Come on mate, he didn't even know the result after the game. Stating "we just lost a game we should have won" , when we actually drew, hardly qualifies him for the brightest man we have ever had in charge :rolleyes: :loopy:

The point is, which you appear unable to understand,is that the players he does have are not as good as you believe they are. Did you see the World Cup?

England squads over the last forty years have had equally good players but
the teams still won nothing. Is Paul Robinson better than Peter Shilton? Is John Terry better than Des Walker or is Andrew Johnson better than Kevin Keegan was?

In reality the current squad is not significantly better than at any time over the last forty years and therefore to expect anything other than the same mediocrity would be... what's the word ....obtuse.

If you want to be taken seriously you really must bring something more to the table than justyour opinion that these players are good enough
and ''should'' beat Israel. How about some evidence? The results say these players are over hyped and that the quality of the team is greatly exaggerated.


Agree to a point but Plech does have a point with the fact that, although overhyped, England do have the individuals to, in theory, walk all over Isreal. Man for man we are far superior to Isreal.

A manager who can win cups is ...
...... exactly the sort of person you need.
.....Good at motivating and getting the best out of players.


I fully agree with that, but there are very few English managers who have won any cups.

I think Joe Royle was the last one ???

He's one of the few people who could probably handle the players.
Whether he could handle the media , and whether he would want the job is a different matter.

Any manager is going to struggle to satisfy the arseholes that write for our newspapers.

I actually hope McLaren does prove most people wrong now.
But he's going to have his work cut out to break down Israel and Croatia at home in the final run in, especially if the pressure is on.

Aye. Know what you mean about who has won owt recently .It is the main fall down in my case !!

Actually. The gobby bleeder at Chelsea is probably the sort who could do it !!!

No because every manager would pick Carragher and P Neville as fullbacks wouldn't they ?
Come on mate, he didn't even know the result after the game. Stating "we just lost a game we should have won" , when we actually drew, hardly qualifies him for the brightest man we have ever had in charge :rolleyes: :loopy:

I did not say he was a good manager,the fact is which manager could get the best out of the baby bentley lot.

I did not say he was a good manager,the fact is which manager could get the best out of the baby bentley lot.

There is a host of managers with more/better credentials of team/man management than that doughnut. The list would be endless. H Redknapp is one that springs to mind who would do a better job, and i'm not saying he should be manager, he's just a better manager than numbnuts.

Redknapp is a good manager but like all the English managers in the PL have won nothing in the last 20 years,look at Liverpool,Man Utd & Arsenal, Chelsea all different nationalities who have dominated the top flight over the last 20 years.On trophies Fergy is the best ever PL manager,but he would not be Scotlands manager either because of the crap that goes with the job.

The point is, which you appear unable to understand,is that the players he does have are not as good as you believe they are.
And just how good do you think I'm claiming they are?

Did you see the World Cup?
Did you see Israel at the World Cup? England had a poor world cup Israel weren't even good enough to qualify.

England squads over the last forty years have had equally good players but
the teams still won nothing. Is Paul Robinson better than Peter Shilton? Is John Terry better than Des Walker or is Andrew Johnson better than Kevin Keegan was?

In reality the current squad is not significantly better than at any time over the last forty years and therefore to expect anything other than the same mediocrity would be... what's the word ....obtuse.
How is any of that relevant as to whether or not England have the players to beat the teams we've played so far in our qualifying group?

If you want to be taken seriously you really must bring something more to the table than justyour opinion that these players are good enough
and ''should'' beat Israel. How about some evidence? The results say these players are over hyped and that the quality of the team is greatly exaggerated.
What more evidence do you need beyond the fact that unlike Israel England have a core of players who are first choice in Champions League teams whereas Israel's best player plays for West Ham.

The reason why the England lads look good for there respective clubs is that they have better players around them.Last night England were terrible,the passing was disgusting & I do not think changing the manager will make the slightest difference.
English players aren't being carried at Chelsea, United... want proof? Just look what happened to Chelsea's defence earlier this season when Terry was injured.

English players aren't being carried at Chelsea, United... want proof? Just look what happened to Chelsea's defence earlier this season when Terry was injured.

Good point to a degree, but wasn't Carvalho, Ferrara, and cole also out at around the same time ? Im not 100% sure, just seem to remember that they had more than just terry out at the time of there blip

Good point to a degree, but wasn't Carvalho, Ferrara, and cole also out at around the same time ? Im not 100% sure, just seem to remember that they had more than just terry out at the time of there blip
They had a few defenders out some at the same time iirc correctly though they Chelsea concede 6 or 7 goals in the games Terry was out nearly half their total for the season.

For another example of the influence of England players look at what happened to United's season after Ferdinand was suspended for missing that drugs test in the 2003-4 season.

Aside from examples like this where absence has shown just how important England players are to their clubs there's also the issue of why on Earth would their club managers buy and play English players if they were no good?

Mourinho has had effectively unlimited resources at his disposal for the last 3 seasons yet has never sought to replace Terry or Lampard & even brought in anothor England player Cole at great expense why would he do this if they were no good?

Mourinho has had effectively unlimited resources at his disposal for the last 3 seasons yet has never sought to replace Terry or Lampard & even brought in anothor England player Cole at great expense why would he do this if they were no good?


Good point. I can not see Liverpool ever wanting to replace Gerrard and Carragher, if only because of serious injury or a transfer request. They think so highly of them that they even involved them with the takeover bussiness.

Thing is with selling any 'top' player is that you have to look at what you can get in for the same money.
9/10 times its just a massive gamble int it.

Mourinho has had effectively unlimited resources at his disposal for the last 3 seasons yet has never sought to replace Terry or Lampard & even brought in anothor England player Cole at great expense why would he do this if they were no good?


SWP also. Good points but one thing worries me about all this. Will cole, SWP etc ever get a run in the team long enough to develop at the rate they should, or will they, as SWP's has already, be warming the bench season after season. This could be the reason why very few youngsters are breaking into their clubs first team, never mind the England set up.

OK McLaren's England haven't exactly set pulses racing but I wouldn't say the results have been too disastrous yet. They have only lost away to the best opposition in the group and had a couple of draws against average opposition.

If England win their remaining home games they are very likely to qualify. Just about every team in Europe relies on home victories to qualify and England have 4 home games in their last 5.

OK, McLaren in not a great manager but no great manager wants the England job - this is the way it is going. Eriksson was an average to half decent manager and they only got him by paying him a scandalous amount of money.

Yes, very valid point.
If I’m totally honest, I just wish we played the Liverpool way. I Know that I have my, somewhat, bitter tantrums now and again, but the truth is, im jealous. I realise that Manchester UTD are going to be, in a couple of years, well, nothing is all I can say. Whereas Liverpool, with the vast quality that they already possess, are going to be once again, the dominant team. Ive been thinking a lot lately about this issue, and I hope people will understand when I tell them,…… I now love Liverpool FC. I think I always have done, its just took me a very long time to realise just how stuck up and ugly, the Manchester UTD players really are. Come on Liverpool. Deep down I always knew I loved you..


Hey Plekhanov, i have to say ... good on ya fella, good on ya.

www.whoateallthepies...

I agree100% you put it spot on.

www.whoateallthepies...
I clicked and got 'nymphogirls.com':)

I clicked and got 'nymphogirls.com':)

Drat it will not load now...the BBC Sport links must be getting kinda racy these days;)

is this still the Mclaren thread?

I would like to see Venables take over and Harry Redknapp his assistant (I know I'll probably get shot down in flames so I've got my coat)

is this still the Mclaren thread?

I would like to see Venables take over and Harry Redknapp his assistant (I know I'll probably get shot down in flames so I've got my coat)

That double act doesn't sound so bad. Better than what we have now anyway.
England were good when Venables was at the helm last time around, maybe another shot should be given, although our FA would never let this happen due to the pathetic method of their recruitment procedures.