I know there are arguments about how many weeks children get off at a time and many parents say they get too long off :hihi: but do you think school hours are too long? Sparked by another thread it got me thinking as to how much time people spend with their children. Obviously shorter hours may be akward for those with no-one at home during the day but could children benefit from shorter school days? Or should they be there longer?

School isn't a holiday camp, it is meant to be there as a vehicle to educate our children to the level where they can go out and find gainful employment. If that means that they need extra education then so be it.

The hours are not that long and when you combine them with the amount of holiday they get it gives them very little time to cover the full sylabus.

I know my school day was longer than they have now and that was only 20 years ago!

School hours were much longer when I were a lad. 8:50am start and 4.05 finish as I recall. But then, examinations were much tougher in those days so we probably needed the extra time.

Of course the days are too long.
By god some of them teachers must be doing 30 odd hours a week !!:D

I went to school 9-12.30 and 1.30-4.15 which is six and a quarter hours. I think that kids should go to school longer hours but not get homework. In that way it is easier for working parents and there aren't the rows about homework and kids wouldn't cheat themselves by getting other people to do it for them. Homework is a cop out for the schools.

What if the school hours were reduced, but so were the amount of holiday time that they have off? Meaning that they had the same amount of schooling time as now just with shorter days and shorter holidays.

The overall time they are at school is too short regardless of how it is spread out. Also the hols would never be reduced as the unions for the lazy teachers are too powerful.

School hours were much longer when I were a lad. 8:50am start and 4.05 finish as I recall. But then, examinations were much tougher in those days so we probably needed the extra time.

Not only that but we had to walk to school whatever the weather, not like these pampered kids today in their 4x4s. I had to walk 5 miles each way to my school; some days my parents would even tie my legs together just to make it more difficult for me. And when we got to school we would regularly get caned just for looking at the teachers in a funny way, or locked in cupboards for hours on end if you forgot your games kit.

Looking back, they were the happiest days of my life.....

Do you think schools should start earlier in the day, for example 8am instead of approx 9am

No cos it's too chaotic as it is in homes in the morning, that would be even worse and it would mean more days of going to school in the dark in winter.

No cos it's too chaotic as it is in homes in the morning, that would be even worse and it would mean more days of going to school in the dark in winter.


but do you not think it would help those parents who are wanting to work? I know there are many jobs which start at 10am but most commonly they start at 9am which is quite difficult if your children don't go in till 8:50am

Well it accomodates them in the morning but would make it even worse in the afternoon when they finished earlier.

I think school holidays are too long.

Wasn't the six week summer holiday introduced because the children were needed to help in te fields with harvest in the olden days?

It is clearly ludicrous that their should be such a long break. It causes chaos for parents and even the children are sick of it by the third week.
There is no reason to have longer than two weeks of.

not long enough, theres parents waiting at the school down the road at 2.30pm to pick children up

The overall time they are at school is too short regardless of how it is spread out. Also the hols would never be reduced as the unions for the lazy teachers are too powerful.


other than the fact they have been - leading to the fun of having to go back on a friday etc.

Schools hove no discretion over early finish etc at the end of term ...

i think people forget that teachers do not have as many holiday days as the pupils as they are required to attend at other times and /or have measured required work to be done on 'holiday' where many of the rest of us regardless of employer can put the blinds down , lock the desk and ignore work wheile we are on holiday unless and until we reach really senior management ...

other than the fact they have been - leading to the fun of having to go back on a friday etc.

Schools hove no discretion over early finish etc at the end of term ...

i think people forget that teachers do not have as many holiday days as the pupils as they are required to attend at other times and /or have measured required work to be done on 'holiday' where many of the rest of us regardless of employer can put the blinds down , lock the desk and ignore work wheile we are on holiday unless and until we reach really senior management ...

The two teachers I know spend their holidays playing golf and drinking in the pub. When I asked one of them how much work he did during the school holidays he laughed uproariously.

I think this work in the holidays lark maybe a bit of a myth put about by teachers to make us feel sorry for them and you seem to have fallen for it.

i think people forget that teachers do not have as many holiday days as the pupils as they are required to attend at other times and /or have measured required work to be done on 'holiday' where many of the rest of us regardless of employer can put the blinds down , lock the desk and ignore work wheile we are on holiday unless and until we reach really senior management ...
Teachers don't do much, if any work in the hols and they still have far more than the rest of us. That is one of the principle attractions of teaching because teaching itself can't be very attractive nowadays.

Not only that but we had to walk to school whatever the weather, not like these pampered kids today in their 4x4s. I had to walk 5 miles each way to my school; some days my parents would even tie my legs together just to make it more difficult for me. And when we got to school we would regularly get caned just for looking at the teachers in a funny way, or locked in cupboards for hours on end if you forgot your games kit.

Looking back, they were the happiest days of my life.....

You don't know how lucky you were. We had to get up before we had gone to bed, lick the road for breakfast then walk 25 miles to school on our hands. We had to work 12 hours at school and then got another 12 hours of homework.

You don't know how lucky you were. We had to get up before we had gone to bed, lick the road for breakfast then walk 25 miles to school on our hands. We had to work 12 hours at school and then got another 12 hours of homework.

I don't know, some people don't know they were born. My grandad often told stories about how he got his education by listening down the chimneys he had to sweep at the school, after a hearty breakfast of gutter-mould.

He might have been exaggerating just slightly, but times were harsh in the Black Country back then ;)

Not all teachers leave school as soon as the bell rings. My wife stays until 5 or later most days, then spends an hour or two in the evening preparing work for her classes.

Some teaching roles, were little or no preperation is required is easier, I'll agree with that, but it's too much of a generalisation to say "all teachers have it easy".

I think that the cr@p she (and other teachers) have to put up with day in day out due to the school's lack of power to discipline children, coupled with the far from fantastic wages is justification for a few extra weeks holiday - what they choose to do in these holidays is entirely up to them.

We should be glad we have people who are willing to be abused day in day out for a pittance, rather than having a go at them. :thumbsup:

I'm not having a go at them, I am commenting that the hols and hours are good. My mum was a teacher and my partner still is.

Doesn't the work required depend on what age they are teaching? Surely secondary teachers would have more work to do with preparing for gcse's etc than primary teachers would?? Personally I wish to teach primary but that isn't because I think they get less work :)

Doesn't the work required depend on what age they are teaching? Surely secondary teachers would have more work to do with preparing for gcse's etc than primary teachers would?? Personally I wish to teach primary but that isn't because I think they get less work :)

while the difficulty varies to suit the age and ability ofthe group the quantity of preparation shouldn't ...

relaistically for someone teaching a subject whether it;s primary or GCSE there shouldn't be too much idfference in how 'hard' the prep is forthe teacher - although in some cases secondary teachers are going to be faced with a more 'fast moving' subject area

What about where homework is concerned? Generally the older they are the more they get don't they? If that is so teachers of older children have more work to prepare?

If children had an hour less a day at school, this would give the teachers an extra hour to prepare lessons etc. Would that work?

No. It's the kids who need more time not the teachers who need less. Schools are for children not teachers

The school days are fine it is the amount of homework that is a problem.

Even infants get homework now. Kids don't get time to be kids.

As I said further up I don't think they should have homework, they should do all that at school in free lessons which don't even need the hard pressed teachers to do anything or even be present (just security guards) I can't see any good reason for homework, it isn't required when they get a job and the increased homework doesn't seem to have any positive effect on results.

GOOD homework should help the children to learn AND develop all those lovely independent skills they need so much (which I don't think they're getting)

An example of the use of homework: French in year 7 taught for one lesson a week, homework can be given to consolidate the learning during the lesson, this then helps the student remember, so that the following week some of the information has been retained. We could do without homework if the school day and timetable were organized better.

Schools are for children not teachers

You may find the trade unions disagree with that....

Yes indeed.

As I said further up I don't think they should have homework, they should do all that at school in free lessons which don't even need the hard pressed teachers to do anything or even be present (just security guards) I can't see any good reason for homework, it isn't required when they get a job and the increased homework doesn't seem to have any positive effect on results.

Education is a parents responsibility too not just the schools !! Homework is given to enhance education , some kids need it more than others but surely if homework increases a childs education then parents should support that ?

They should support them doing it but not do it for them which is often the case. Parents should be educating them in many other things that are not necessarily academic subjects, that is the job of the school.

I know my kids are doing well in school through my input too , being a parent does mean educating our kids in all areas ,you are right but that includes 'helping ' kids with their homework, doing it for them just defeats the object.
Schools hours just aren't long enough to be able to educate a child to their full potential so i feel parents helping with homework can only benefit the child .

Thats why I'm saying the hours should be longer in order to reduce the homework because plenty of kids don't do it at all and so they are disadvantaged because their parents aren't encouraging them.

Homework probably is aimed at the ones whose parents support them with it but if kids don't get the support at home when they are young ,what chance will they have later in life?
This seems to be a discussion between Thee and me now Darbees ;)

I do agree with you to some extent but teachers also need a life :)

What about where homework is concerned? Generally the older they are the more they get don't they? If that is so teachers of older children have more work to prepare?

"Learn your 3 times table by thursday please class 5"

takes no longer than

"Read about, and comment on, the role of the Aboriginal in the development of world art in the 20th century by thursday please class 10"

to jot down as homework.

It just takes the kids longer to do it generally.

my mother was of the opinion that parents should drop their children off at the school gates at the age of five, and pick the child back up on the child's 16th birthday....

she was joking... (I hope...)

personally speaking, I think the school hours should be a bit longer:- eight/ half-past, to about half past four, with the extra hour or so at the end of school as a homework / solo-study period.

term-time, I think, could be a bit longer, too, yes, in the "olden days", during the summer holidays children were needed to help with the harvest, or, as in london, would go to kent to help with the hop-picking.

also, the time was spent cleaning up/ decorating the schools, something which seems to be lacking now.

School isn't a holiday camp, it is meant to be there as a vehicle to educate our children to the level where they can go out and find gainful employment.



I think that's a rather narrow view. What about broadening horizons, increasing general knowledge and our understanding of the world around us and enriching the cultural resources of the country etc?

I think if you just trained people for work, you could cut most subjects out straightaway. Art PE Geography, Languages, literature, history, music ...I could go on .

It's a very narrow view. Children aren't educated just to get gainful employment or a broad knowledge, they go to school to meet targets and improve the schools OFSTED rating.

As I said further up I don't think they should have homework, they should do all that at school in free lessons which don't even need the hard pressed teachers to do anything or even be present (just security guards) I can't see any good reason for homework, it isn't required when they get a job and the increased homework doesn't seem to have any positive effect on results.

Think I'd have agreed with you when I was 15 - I hated homework back then! But when I was at primary we still had it - mostly learning by heart our spellings or finishing off what we had not done that week at school, sometimes even extra homework if you asked for it, and we did, it was that kind of school where the teachers made learning the most fun thing in the world!

Nowadays I think it's important (now I'm grown up and not sulking about missing out on telly time!). Reading for little ones, some learning by heart for under 10s, and then getting into thinking for yourself and working independently at 10+.

It's really important that parents do their bit - we could all read well before starting school so we got a good head start.

I have to say if I'd had to stop in school after 3.30 I'd have had trouble getting home as it took an hour to travel (bus and a long walk) and I think I'd have mucked about and wasted that time anyway without the teachers around! It was nicer to do your work at home, all warm and with your music on and your mum to bring you a brew ;)

"Learn your 3 times table by thursday please class 5"

takes no longer than

"Read about, and comment on, the role of the Aboriginal in the development of world art in the 20th century by thursday please class 10"

to jot down as homework.

It just takes the kids longer to do it generally.

Problem is a lot of the homework isn't done like that these days. When I was school we all had homework note books in which to write down the homework given and what date it was due back in. These days they get given sheets of work to fill in.

Thats why I'm saying the hours should be longer in order to reduce the homework because plenty of kids don't do it at all and so they are disadvantaged because their parents aren't encouraging them.


This I agree with. That way all the children would have the same oppertunity to back up their learning unfortunatly, without proper supervision, those who would have their parents do the homework for them would more than likely use the time to mess around :rolleyes:

No. It's the kids who need more time not the teachers who need less. Schools are for children not teachers

But would the children not get too tired or stressed even with a longer day. I know from when I was at school (and I always worked really hard) that by 2pm I was mentally shattered and my work in that lesson suffered. I'm pretty sure that if an extra lesson was added my work would have suffered even more.

Throughout this thread Kit you seem to be advocating less teaching time for children and I don't agree at all.

Decided to delete what I'd typed as some people will always think what they think and it is a waste of energy typing anything to them.

Homework is a cop out for the schools.

Having just read this thread, it appears that you have a lot of issues with schools and the teaching profession. Have you had a bad experience or something?

I can assure you that a lot of teachers work a lot more than 30 hours a week. Most work more than 60. Many work even more than that. I was particularly interested in your comment above. In what way is homework a cop out for the schools? Homework is given in order for students to practise what they have learnt in class, or to extend their understanding of a particular topic, amongst other things. Teachers need to plan and prepare appropriate homework for each of their classes. They also need to mark it. This is a massive burden on teachers - certainly not a cop out. Many schools offer opportunities for kids to do homework at school - i.e. after school. This gives them somewhere to do it and also enables them to get help from a teacher if that help isn't available at home. Oh yes, this also involves teachers giving their time after school before you start complaining about teachers short working day!

Anyway, as far as school hours are concerned - there is a good argument for reducing the length of the day. The vast majority of school kids work far better in the morning than in the afternoon, so shorter days could actually benefit kids. Mabye this could be achieved by longer terms and shorter summer holidays.

Decided to delete what I'd typed as some people will always think what they think and it is a waste of energy typing anything to them.

Thats a shame Ednakrabappe because everyones opinion is important . i agreed with what you had put if it helps :)

My two penneth!

A day of 5x1 hour lessons is long enough for any student to concentrate, if you had ever taught you would know that any longer is just flogging a dead horse, although the homework period might be a good idea.

Many peoples motive for a longer school day is down to easier child care.

If teaching was such a toss off why do 50% of newly qualified teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years?

As you know already kittenta i think a school day is far to long. I do not believe that a child should do more or less a full working day. You can only learn take so much in sat in a classroom. The rest of this time is spent daydreaming and twiddling thumbs. A number of other countries shown to have a better a standered of education then the UK are schools where children dont start till aged 6 or 7 and the school day finishes at dinner time. As for comments regarding a parents working day. Well quite frankly the child comes before the job and this should work round the child. I know in this country this is not so easy but I personally think more should be done by the government about this and support and encourage a closer family life. Education dosent really happen because of workbooks throughout the day although they do have there place. A large percentage of what children learn is from play and day to day life and this should be encouraged more. I think our biggest priority is more family time not more time in schools. There should be more emphasis on families having quality time together.

My two penneth!

Many peoples motive for a longer school day is down to easier child care.

If teaching was such a toss off why do 50% of newly qualified teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years?


I was wondering how many people in this thread have ever really tried teaching a class of kids...

By the way, in Spain and Norway summer holidays are much longer and people don't complain as much. No one in Spain would be as crazy as to expect kids to learn anything when it's over 30 degrees Celsius.
In Norway they realize that people and specially kids need the hours of sun that have been denied by the winter and classes, and they make the most of it! Be a bit more positive :thumbsup:
I would vote for more holidays for EVERYONE. Do you know Britain has the least holidays in Europe? And that has little to do with productivity.

Some parents treat school as a daycare centre and don't really care what their child is taught ( note i did say some , not all ! ) Teaching is very hard and they do not just work in a classroom with kids , they organise educational visits and in some cases even down to writing the letters that go home . when do people think they get chance to do this ? not when the kids are in class. Taking school kids on visits is not an easy task . Some even go on residential visits ,with no extra pay ! They attend meetings, and training courses to benefit the education of the school children. Teachers do far more than some people give them credit for ..........and no , i'm not a teacher but i take my hat off to them !!

In my day school was 9 while 4, far too long IMO.. Especially when by dinnertime you could happily kill the tw*t sat next to you, as it was in those days, for me anyway.

Little school wasn't so bad, because in those days I lived in walking distance of Rivelin Juniors on Morley St, and I was good friends with most of the lads there (despite the fact that since I left I haven't seen anyone from that era for nigh on 20 years :( apparently Mr Butterfield retired last year he was my form teacher there)

My point is that these days the Schools finish about 3ish, and they're complaining that they day's too long? Bah, you don't know you're born kids! :loopy:

Thats a shame Ednakrabappe because everyones opinion is important . i agreed with what you had put if it helps :)

Thank you littlepink. There are some lovely understanding people.

I've just finished marking my homework and handwriting pile. Going to bed now so i can get up at about 4.30 (find I'm more productive in the morning as I'm shattered now and will be correcting the children's literacy work with spelling errors! ) I've got to get in for 7.15 as my colleague is off and i might end up with his class again. As it's duty day i.e. no stop at all from 8.30 - 3.30 - cross them legs until 1230! I've got a school production tomorrow afternoon that I've put lots of extra effort into and then a meeting until 5.30 but thanks for your support. :thumbsup:
(Just incase any of you thought i was being lazy an all!:rolleyes: )

Some parents treat school as a daycare centre and don't really care what their child is taught ( note i did say some , not all ! ) Teaching is very hard and they do not just work in a classroom with kids , they organise educational visits and in some cases even down to writing the letters that go home . when do people think they get chance to do this ? not when the kids are in class. Taking school kids on visits is not an easy task . Some even go on residential visits ,with no extra pay ! They attend meetings, and training courses to benefit the education of the school children. Teachers do far more than some people give them credit for ..........and no , i'm not a teacher but i take my hat off to them !!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

School days may seem shorter but the reality is the lunch times and break times are shorter as well so teaching time isn't any different.

My problem with homework is that it often doesn't leave time for the child to do other activities such as sport, music and most importantly playing.

I know kids who at the moment are getting loads of extra homework, extra classes during lunch and after schools. This is all for SAT's. Their days are longer than most adults work.

It's not hard to spot the anti-teacher sentiments here....oh they have it so easy with long hols, and so on. Perhaps the root problem is not the actual hours but what is done in the hours. When one considers the frequent interference in the teachers' job, with all the "initiatives" that have been thought up to keep changing the educative process, and the increasing burden of paperwork imposed on teachers, along with the withdrawal of the disciplinary powers they had, it's a wonder the kids get as food an education as they due, due to the majority of committed teachers. Do you wonder why it's getting harder to find headteachers for schools? What person would want to take on the burdens imposed within the present system in return for the lack of respect by the government and the public in general?

Of course the days are too long.
By god some of them teachers must be doing 30 odd hours a week !!:D


Oh yeah because we don't do anything outside the classroom! :rolleyes: We don't have to plan, evaluate, mark, research, deal with the pastoral side, have departmental meetings or anything :rant: We just turn up teach and enjoy the weeks of holidays. By the way, in teaching, 'holidays' should always be placed in inverted commas - especially when you teach English where not only do you have the respobsibility of teaching your own subject but seem to get the blame for and the resposibility for 'literacy' across the whole school - which takes up more out of school hours to coordinate!

I went to school 9-12.30 and 1.30-4.15 which is six and a quarter hours. I think that kids should go to school longer hours but not get homework. In that way it is easier for working parents and there aren't the rows about homework and kids wouldn't cheat themselves by getting other people to do it for them. Homework is a cop out for the schools.


There are 'homework' clubs in most schools after school, run by the teachers for those that choose to attend. Parents shouldn't take on the responsibility of children if they are not prepared to support their child's learning.

Not all teachers leave school as soon as the bell rings. My wife stays until 5 or later most days, then spends an hour or two in the evening preparing work for her classes.

Some teaching roles, were little or no preperation is required is easier, I'll agree with that, but it's too much of a generalisation to say "all teachers have it easy".

I think that the cr@p she (and other teachers) have to put up with day in day out due to the school's lack of power to discipline children, coupled with the far from fantastic wages is justification for a few extra weeks holiday - what they choose to do in these holidays is entirely up to them.

We should be glad we have people who are willing to be abused day in day out for a pittance, rather than having a go at them. :thumbsup:

Well said at least someone on here gives us the credit we deserve :thumbsup:

personally I'd scrap mondays! I think mondays just ruin the weekend, not just for school kids but the whole of society! Everyone would be happier,you'd have more time to enjoy the weekend,and work harder and feel better about doing it for the rest of the week!
So I bet the overall work load achieved wouldn't be that different, does that kind of make sense?!
Where my cousins children go to school in france the school week consists of something like
sat,sun,wed off,mon,tues,thurs,fri, 8am-12pm then 2 hours off(have to go home) and school again 2pm-4pm. I'm not sure how that would be to live with,it must be tricky for working parents.
I'

Having just read this thread, it appears that you have a lot of issues with schools and the teaching profession. Have you had a bad experience or something?

I don't have an issue over it I'm just discussing the subject and what I think about it, same as you and everyone else are. If you had read all the thread you will have seen that I have always had personal connections with the teaching profession and still do. I have 2 adult children one of which is currently at university and I am well aware of what is involved in bringing kids up.

However I do not think that having homework and spending, say, an hour doing it is more beneficial than having an extra hour at school to do it. That hour can also be used by the teachers to do some of the preparation or marking. There are schools in Sheffield which do not give children any homework as the discipline is so slack partially through lack of support from parents that those kids must benefit from longer time at school.

I personally don't remember finding school tiring and as I said earlier I was doing six and a quarter hours a day plus homework.

As for the 60 hour week, I'm afraid I don't believe you. It's the classic teacher comment but I've never seen any of my teacher relatives and acquaintances do it.

I think kids get it easy these days and I believe the age of leaving should be increased to at least 17 and then 3 years mandatory national service that would sort out all the problems we are having with kids morales at the moment. The badlads army tv programme shows how national service makes people appreciate what they have enough for them to not want to lose it.

They should be longer to stop the worrying trend of the majority of kids that want to leave at 16 being so thick.

Well said at least someone on here gives us the credit we deserve :thumbsup:

aye - keep up the good work :D

As for the 60 hour week, I'm afraid I don't believe you. It's the classic teacher comment but I've never seen any of my teacher relatives and acquaintances do it.

My other half's a teacher too and my experiences echo yours. She always has enough time during the week to mark and I only ever remember her bringing work home once (some sort of project with a very late handing in time).

She was of the view that if teachers spent half the time that they spend moaning, catching up on admin/marking instead, they wouldn't have so much to moan about.

Before the flood of rebuttals, I'd like to say that this is an experience of one secondary school and that if you are genuinely working 12+ hour days without breaks, then you need to examine whether your school is: being run properly, that you are not being taken advantage of and whether you are making the best use of your time.

Come and hide behind my sofa with me Tricky, I'm used to it. :thumbsup:

I think kids should start a little earlier say 8 oclock and finish at about 2.

There are 'homework' clubs in most schools after school, run by the teachers for those that choose to attend.

And breakfast clubs. It allows parents who have to leave early for work to drop off their kids and maybe possibly get a good breakfast at the same time.

Most workers finish at 5 plus time to get home, that's a long time for working parents to find child care.

I think kids should start a little earlier say 8 oclock and finish at about 2.

My school starts at 8.15 and ends at 2.15 three days a week (3.15 the other two days). However, on those early days students are strongly encouraged to doing after school activities

I just think it would be beneficial. Less impact on the traffic and the kids would get more time to play outdoors in the winter (not so dark)

Most workers finish at 5 plus time to get home, that's a long time for working parents to find child care.

Yes but most workers start at nine so they have to find childcare in the mornings anyway. Its just shifting things an hour.

With all the government medling, making the school day longer is inevitable. Or we could allways make the school year longer!

Yes but most workers start at nine so they have to find childcare in the mornings anyway. Its just shifting things an hour.Your suggestion makes it even worse from child care point of view, they would need it before and after school.

Your suggestion makes it even worse from child care point of view, they would need it before and after school.

:huh: How so? If you are dropping a child off before eight in the morning you don't need childcare surely.

Yes. sorry I'm mixing posts up.:rolleyes:

:huh: How so? If you are dropping a child off before eight in the morning you don't need childcare surely.

Unless you start work before eight.

Unless you start work before eight.

Yes scoop but Darbees was saying most parents work 9-5 (which of course isn't every parent)

I wonder if any of the teachers will respond before about 9pm since they work a 12 hour day.

I assume it is mainly adults who post on this forum so not suprising that results so far suggest school hours should be longer.:thumbsup:

Are kids qualified to give an objective comment?

QUOTE=Norbo;2066837]Having just read this thread, it appears that you have a lot of issues with schools and the teaching profession. Have you had a bad experience or something?

I can assure you that a lot of teachers work a lot more than 30 hours a week. Most work more than 60. Many work even more than that. I was particularly interested in your comment above. In what way is homework a cop out for the schools? Homework is given in order for students to practise what they have learnt in class, or to extend their understanding of a particular topic, amongst other things. Teachers need to plan and prepare appropriate homework for each of their classes. They also need to mark it. This is a massive burden on teachers - certainly not a cop out. Many schools offer opportunities for kids to do homework at school - i.e. after school. This gives them somewhere to do it and also enables them to get help from a teacher if that help isn't available at home. Oh yes, this also involves teachers giving their time after school before you start complaining about teachers short working day!

Anyway, as far as school hours are concerned - there is a good argument for reducing the length of the day. The vast majority of school kids work far better in the morning than in the afternoon, so shorter days could actually benefit kids. Mabye this could be achieved by longer terms and shorter summer holidays.[/QUOTE]

Throughout this thread Kit you seem to be advocating less teaching time for children and I don't agree at all.

To be honest i'm just throwing in questions to explore all the possibilites. Personally I wish school hours were shorter so that I could spend more quality time with my children so it is a selfish reason and I openly admit that.

As for education time I don't believe some children get enough no. My children rarely stop learning whether it be on paper at school or having fun at home but not all children have that oppertunity. Many children are left to play on computer games or perched in front of the tv from when they get home till they go to bed which in my personal opinion teaches them nothing. I'm not an evil mother that bans her kids from tv or anything, they both watch tv and play computer games but I think there are more fun things to do and thankfully my kids do too.

For some children going to school is a relief from their home lives.

As a good parent you are interested in educating them but there are a lot of parents who aren't who are from all walks of life and so, like a lot of things, it has to be tailored to the lowest common denominator and having longer hours would suit all kids, shorter hours only suits those who get educated at home too.

Does anyone believe schools make the best of the time they have? If I ask my two what they will be doing at school tomorrow they don't have a clue. Not because they aren't interested but because they seemed to get passed from one classroom to another. I know my son mentioned something about going into a class with another teacher as it was a 'break' for his teacher to catch up on paper work, what's that all about?

I don't think they make good use of anything, they are too concerned with government targets and pupils rights, struggling with discipline etc that the minor matter of teaching the kids isn't all that important.

Do you think lack of teachers are a problem? Are teachers taking on more than their own class / role without extra pay?

Is there any lessons that could be removed and replaced with something more relevant? For example using the time to teach the core subjects and the basics which many children today seem to be lacking.

My son does nothing all day according to him .

Do you think lack of teachers are a problem? Are teachers taking on more than their own class / role without extra pay?

Is there any lessons that could be removed and replaced with something more relevant? For example using the time to teach the core subjects and the basics which many children today seem to be lacking.

there are now rules which prevent teachers that are on prep time being used as cover for sickness. this is proving a real pain to impliment in schools & draining the budget as supply teachers cost a fortune

Radical Idea:-

School hours to be 8.45 am to 5.15 pm in order to fit in with working hours of the parents.

School holidays to be 25 floating days plus bank holidays, to be taken at any time by arrangement with the school, and any work missed to be caught up on return.

Kids would leave school prepared for the real world, and parents could get on with working and earning. Holidays would be true family holidays with all the family off at the same time and sharing proper quality time.

Radical Idea:-

School hours to be 8.45 am to 5.15 pm in order to fit in with working hours of the parents.

School holidays to be 25 floating days plus bank holidays, to be taken at any time by arrangement with the school, and any work missed to be caught up on return.

Kids would leave school prepared for the real world, and parents could get on with working and earning. Holidays would be true family holidays with all the family off at the same time and sharing proper quality time.

What a brilliant idea, & no "premiums" for holidays. sounds good to me, I'll put it foward at the next governors meeting, think the teaching staff may get a little wound up though:D :D

What a good idea about floating holidays . I woud imagine teachers would complain as they too would only be entitled to the same amount of hols as thiose of us who live in the world where the sky is blue and the grass is green.

Wouldn't work because the teachers would have to have floating holidays which would disrupt everything and there wouldn't be any continuity of lessons.

Post deleted by author.

What a good idea about floating holidays . I woud imagine teachers would complain as they too would only be entitled to the same amount of hols as thiose of us who live in the world where the sky is blue and the grass is green.
So many 'experts' commenting on how easy the teacher's lot is, but so few willing to give it a go.

I don't think their job is easy, I just don't think they work as long as most people.

Where was the poll option I wanted to vote for, which is that school should not be compulsory, with the children able to attend as far as their interest takes them? That would ensure the lessons were designed to catch and keep children's interest, as boring lessons would get voted on by their feet.

In my ideal world there would not be schools at all, but community learning centres where anyone of any age would be facilitated to study any subject they were interested in. Learning would not be just for children, but for life.

My mother once sat and worked out how many days we kids were at school over the year.

taking off the 104 days there's no schooling, because it's the weekend

365-104= 261...

seven weeks (give or take) in the summer:- 35
261-35=226

2 weeks each at Easter, Whitsun, and Christmas= another 30 days (it's sometimes a bit more)

226-30= 196

3 (min) half-term holidays removes another 15 days-
196- 15= 181

various baker/inset/training days.. five, maybe a year?
181 - 5= 176

so, really, (as my mother pointed out all those years ago) kids are at school for less than six months of the year (if 6 months =180 days)

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

I wonder if any of the teachers will respond before about 9pm since they work a 12 hour day.

YOU need to get yourself back to school. Show me any teacher that walks in AFTER the children. :rant:

I was at school at 7:15 a.m. this morning. That was after getting up at 5 a.m. (couldn't face four.) As it's now 6.30 and I've just walked in (I'll round that to 6:15 p.m. to make it easy for you) with at least two hours more ahead, I think I've done my twelve hours and more some. However, with your terrible opinions of teachers, I'll leave you to work that one out shall I?

So many 'experts' commenting on how easy the teacher's lot is, but so few willing to give it a go.

I for 1 have & never will say a teachers lot is an easy one, it's hard enough being a governor!

It's not hard to spot the anti-teacher sentiments here....oh they have it so easy with long hols, and so on. Perhaps the root problem is not the actual hours but what is done in the hours. When one considers the frequent interference in the teachers' job, with all the "initiatives" that have been thought up to keep changing the educative process, and the increasing burden of paperwork imposed on teachers, along with the withdrawal of the disciplinary powers they had, it's a wonder the kids get as food an education as they due, due to the majority of committed teachers. Do you wonder why it's getting harder to find headteachers for schools? What person would want to take on the burdens imposed within the present system in return for the lack of respect by the government and the public in general?

Excellent post. This is a real issue locally in the next few years as lots of heads are coming up for retirement.

My other half's a teacher too and my experiences echo yours. She always has enough time during the week to mark and I only ever remember her bringing work home once (some sort of project with a very late handing in time).

She was of the view that if teachers spent half the time that they spend moaning, catching up on admin/marking instead, they wouldn't have so much to moan about.

Before the flood of rebuttals, I'd like to say that this is an experience of one secondary school and that if you are genuinely working 12+ hour days without breaks, then you need to examine whether your school is: being run properly, that you are not being taken advantage of and whether you are making the best use of your time.

Your wife is very lucky. Can I ask what subject (s) she teaches, how much release time she gets and the hours of her school? Has she been teaching this subject a long time? Does she have any coordinator responsibility? Does her school have additional staff for playground supervision? What is the standard of marking accepted at her school? Does she run any clubs? When does she do her planning? How thorough is that requested?
All are pertinent and relevant questions I think and asked in genuine awe, if what you say is true, as even staff who've been teaching donkey's years at my place have lots of work.

Children should be seen and not heard - keep em in school 8am to 6pm!

there are now rules which prevent teachers that are on prep time being used as cover for sickness. this is proving a real pain to impliment in schools & draining the budget as supply teachers cost a fortune

Schools are getting around this by employing "cover supervisors". L3 teaching assistants or HLTA's are employed at around £12000 pro rata to provide cover for absent staff and provide learning support when not needed.

Schools are getting around this by employing "cover supervisors". L3 teaching assistants or HLTA's are employed at around £12000 pro rata to provide cover for absent staff and provide learning support when not needed.
The L3s and HLTAs get a lot more than £12000 a year pro rata.

You're right though about the cover usage. A HLTA can do up to 4.5 days of teaching cover per week with the other half day used as their planning and prep hours. Not paid as much as a teacher, but not expected to handle the hassle either.

I don't have an issue over it I'm just discussing the subject and what I think about it, same as you and everyone else are. If you had read all the thread you will have seen that I have always had personal connections with the teaching profession and still do. I have 2 adult children one of which is currently at university and I am well aware of what is involved in bringing kids up.......

As for the 60 hour week, I'm afraid I don't believe you. It's the classic teacher comment but I've never seen any of my teacher relatives and acquaintances do it.

Thank you - I have read the thread and all your comments and yes I did notice your connections with teaching.

I just don't understand all the teacher bashing. Maybe people are jealous of the holidays - actually I may be a tiny bit jealous of your job - you seem to be able to post on this forum at any time of the day, unlike me. Sorry - that was a silly and totally irrelevant comment.

Speaking for myself - I am a secondary school teacher - I honestly do work 60 hours+ a week. Other teachers might get by with strolling in 5 minutes before their lessons start and go home 10 mins after the bell and do nothing at home. I suggest they are either outstandingly good teachers who simply don't need to prepare or adjust their lessons and maybe don't set any homework, or maybe lazy and simply prepared to churn out the same lessons year after year.

I think I owe it to the students to make my lessons as interesting and relevant as possible and for me that means careful planning, producing quality resources, continually adjusting my teaching based on what has worked or not worked particularly well in the past and of course assessing and marking students work. For me that takes more than 60 hours a week - sometimes more (honestly - ask my wife!!!). I know a great many teachers who work far, far more than your typical 40 hour week - even if we only teach for about 5-6 hours a day. And that is 5-6 hours bloody hard work by the way.

Anyway, back to work for me now - reports to write amongst other things, so it will be midnight before I finish tonight. Not looking for sympathy by the way and I'm not a whinging teacher either - I choose to do it and I love it, but some of your comments (and of others) do irritate me somewhat.

mods - please put this thread in General Chat as it's not 'Sheffield' specific





.

My mother once sat and worked out how many days we kids were at school over the year.

taking off the 104 days there's no schooling, because it's the weekend

365-104= 261...

seven weeks (give or take) in the summer:- 35
261-35=226

2 weeks each at Easter, Whitsun, and Christmas= another 30 days (it's sometimes a bit more)

226-30= 196

3 (min) half-term holidays removes another 15 days-
196- 15= 181

various baker/inset/training days.. five, maybe a year?
181 - 5= 176

so, really, (as my mother pointed out all those years ago) kids are at school for less than six months of the year (if 6 months =180 days)

PT
Summer is six weeks (unless in Barnsley then it's five - they have the extra week at Spring half term)
Christmas is not a full two weeks these days - this time it was nine but the time before it was eight.
Whit does not exist as a 2 week break - this is one of the half terms you mention(1 week)

I've just reclaimed three weeks and a day from you at least. 16 days.

I don't think they make good use of anything, they are too concerned with government targets and pupils rights, struggling with discipline etc that the minor matter of teaching the kids isn't all that important.

This is trolling and teacher baiting at its worst, you have no statistics or data to back up your comments.

So many 'experts' commenting on how easy the teacher's lot is, but so few willing to give it a go.

Really well said...as I stated earlier 50% of new teachers leave the profession in their first 5 years.

My other half's a teacher too and my experiences echo yours. She always has enough time during the week to mark and I only ever remember her bringing work home once (some sort of project with a very late handing in time).

She was of the view that if teachers spent half the time that they spend moaning, catching up on admin/marking instead, they wouldn't have so much to moan about.

Before the flood of rebuttals, I'd like to say that this is an experience of one secondary school and that if you are genuinely working 12+ hour days without breaks, then you need to examine whether your school is: being run properly, that you are not being taken advantage of and whether you are making the best use of your time.

Depending on when she leaves school and what she teaches I would suggest she isn't doing the job properly.

Your wife is very lucky. Can I ask what subject (s) she teaches, how much release time she gets and the hours of her school? Has she been teaching this subject a long time? Does she have any coordinator responsibility? Does her school have additional staff for playground supervision? What is the standard of marking accepted at her school? Does she run any clubs? When does she do her planning? How thorough is that requested?
All are pertinent and relevant questions I think and asked in genuine awe, if what you say is true, as even staff who've been teaching donkey's years at my place have lots of work.

a) Geography
b) 4-5 hrs per wk.
c) 8:50 - 3:40
d) 10+yrs
e) Head of Yr
f) Yes
g) Dunno - **** poor I'd guess
h) No
i) "How thorough is that requested?" needs rewording :nono: :hihi:

I don't disbelieve that your working week is as you've described, but I know that there are many others who receive the same pay for putting in a fraction of the hours you do. Clearly there are differences in schools, age groups taught, subject areas, extra-curricular activities etc.

Depending on when she leaves school and what she teaches I would suggest she isn't doing the job properly.

How are you qualified to judge?

How are you qualified to judge?

Been a secondary school teacher for 14 years as well as head of year. I know of not one colleague in the two schools I have worked in who doesn't bring work home. The job cannot be done 9 till 3:30 or even 9 till 5 properly. I have just finished marking a level work (see my post at 9:43pm :) , I started at 7pm.

a) Geography
b) 4-5 hrs per wk.
c) 8:50 - 3:40
d) 10+yrs
e) Head of Yr
f) Yes
g) Dunno - **** poor I'd guess
h) No
i) "How thorough is that requested?" needs rewording :nono: :hihi:

I don't disbelieve that your working week is as you've described, but I know that there are many others who receive the same pay for putting in a fraction of the hours you do. Clearly there are differences in schools, age groups taught, subject areas, extra-curricular activities etc.

Thanks for your answers.

4 to 5 hours free:wow: I get an hour and a half - it's supposed to be 2 but by the time you've brought them in registered them, sent them to lesson, picked them up for break and at the end of break and then seen them off at the end of the day!
She's been teaching for ten years so she pretty much knows what she is doing i suppose and can "blag" it, I've changed year groups everytime more or less and only have 4 years under my belt so lots of things are brand new to me everytime.
We do playground duty twice a week, more if staff are off. That's another half an hour.
We are expected to do more than cursory ticking and writing 'good work' if marking work. (Sometimes the children self assess)
It's the standard norm to run a club - at least an hour a week after school and then prep for this.
The thoroughness referred to her planning - i.e. some school accept jottings on QCA documents, others expect lesson plans with objectives outcomes, learning powers, etc.

So she's got it fairly good, which i'm sure she already knows, as far as these issues go.

Germans have shorter school days. Somedays its 8 till 3, but other days its 8 till 11 which is brilliant.

Germans have shorter school days. Somedays its 8 till 3, but other days its 8 till 11 which is brilliant.

Yes, but look what they get up to over there with all that extra FREE TIME (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/49/19450420_Hitler_65bd_awards_HJ_Iron_Cross.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.answers.com/topic/19450420-hitler-65bd-awards-hj-iron-cross-jpg&h=413&w=600&sz=62&hl=en&start=37&tbnid=v8LcgOzDjaABIM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhitler%2Byouth%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2 %26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN). :(

Haha, i knew what it was going to be that before i even clicked that

Legend.

Been a secondary school teacher for 14 years as well as head of year. I know of not one colleague in the two schools I have worked in who doesn't bring work home. The job cannot be done 9 till 3:30 or even 9 till 5 properly. I have just finished marking a level work (see my post at 9:43pm :) , I started at 7pm.

Cannot be done by you, teaching what you teach, where you teach.

I'm somehow unsurprised that other teachers who use their time more wisely or in a more benign environment are accused of professional incompetence; it couldn't be that they're organising their time better at a better run school, surely? :rolleyes:

Cannot be done by you, teaching what you teach, where you teach.

I'm somehow unsurprised that other teachers who use their time more wisely or in a more benign environment are accused of professional incompetence; it couldn't be that they're organising their time better at a better run school, surely? :rolleyes:

No not quite, not just cannot be done by me but also the vast majority of teachers in the vast majority of schools. You cannot discharge the role of head of year and mark and prepare properly for 18 to 20 hours of teaching during the school day. No matter how organised you are even if you work through lunch and break. What do you call using time wisely? Cutting corners? I am intrigued where and how you think all this time is wasted.

When I was at School the hours were much longer! My niece finishes school as 3.00pm!

The L3s and HLTAs get a lot more than £12000 a year pro rata.

Sorry, that was a typo. Starting salary is £14000. However, when you factor in the term-time only pro-rata you end up with a lousy wage.

It seems we have moved a long way off topic - the OP was looking at school hours from the children's point of view. I feel longer hours at school could be used to provide a suitable environment for independent learning ("homework" being a bit of a misnomer then) and access to activities like musical instrument lessons (instead of having them delivered during lesson times) and sports (so there would be enough time for all classes to have a PE session every day). The supervision of all this would not need to be done by teaching staff. My reason for that is NOT that it would make childcare easier to arrange, but rather that it would improve the chances of success for all children.

And for what it's worth: We entrust our children to teachers. How is it helpful from anybody's point of view if we display contempt and disregard for the value of teachers' work? Do we really think that our children will attend school with a good attitude if they have been brought up to regard teachers as wasters who could not hack it in the so-called real world? And why are long hours worked in an office / shop / factory /on a building site or wherever perceived as more "real" than long hours done at home?

Been a secondary school teacher for 14 years as well as head of year. I know of not one colleague in the two schools I have worked in who doesn't bring work home. The job cannot be done 9 till 3:30 or even 9 till 5 properly. I have just finished marking a level work (see my post at 9:43pm :) , I started at 7pm.

Maybe if you got down to it instead of breaking off and posting on here, you may have got it done quicker?!? (said with tongue SLIGHTLY in cheek :hihi: )

So many 'experts' commenting on how easy the teacher's lot is, but so few willing to give it a go.

By giving it a go do you mean helping out as a voluteer or actually going through all the effort of becoming a teacher just to find out what it is like? I for one would love the chance but schools aren't as keen to take unqualified helpers as they say they are!

[QUOTE=Womerry2;2071212]It seems we have moved a long way off topic - the OP was looking at school hours from the children's point of view.[QUOTE]

I meant it from any point of view to be honest :) Who would have a better idea of whether longer hours would be beneficial to the children, the teachers or the parents?

Sorry, that was a typo. Starting salary is £14000. However, when you factor in the term-time only pro-rata you end up with a lousy wage.

Ok dumb head on this morning, what are HLTA's?

When I was at School the hours were much longer! My niece finishes school as 3.00pm!


Do you think the longer hours benefitted you or would shorter hours have made no difference?

Thank you - I have read the thread and all your comments and yes I did notice your connections with teaching.

I just don't understand all the teacher bashing. Maybe people are jealous of the holidays - actually I may be a tiny bit jealous of your job - you seem to be able to post on this forum at any time of the day, unlike me. Sorry - that was a silly and totally irrelevant comment.

I'm not bashing teachers for the work they do, I know it's a difficult job and I personally wouldn't do it. Any individual on here knows how many hours they themselves work and I'm not doubting that but I don't believe most teachers work that many hours.

I am not jealous in the slightest, I work for myself and have done for nearly 25 years and still work 6 days a week, I have worked very long hours for years and you can see that from the times when I post because I'm usually at work. That said I can now take hols whenever I like and work whenever I like but that is the result of the long hours I have done in the past.

YOU need to get yourself back to school. Show me any teacher that walks in AFTER the children. :rant:

I was at school at 7:15 a.m. this morning. That was after getting up at 5 a.m. (couldn't face four.) As it's now 6.30 and I've just walked in (I'll round that to 6:15 p.m. to make it easy for you) with at least two hours more ahead, I think I've done my twelve hours and more some. However, with your terrible opinions of teachers, I'll leave you to work that one out shall I?I don't have a terrible opinion of teachers, I'm just talking about the hours.

I've just heard on the radio that children will be staying at school till they are 18, do you think this is a good idea? Personally I don't agree with Miss Laycock (why they always ask her opinion I don't know) who says it isn't a good idea. At the age of 16 many youngsters haven't a clue what they want to do and too many of them end up on the dole or taking crappy jobs and never getting better qualified than whatever GCSE's they come out with. I wish someone had made me stay in school till I was 18!

This is trolling and teacher baiting at its worst, you have no statistics or data to back up your comments.Just because I disagree with some points doesn't mean I'm trolling, I'm saying what I think based on what I have seen and experienced, same as you and everyone else is. I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing as you seem to, that's the point of the "debate" and you don't need to take any notice of a word I write if you don't feel like it.

Your comment is nearer to trolling than any of the posts I have made. Incidentally, I think the word trolling is misused and overused on this forum in an attempt to stifle debate.

No not quite, not just cannot be done by me but also the vast majority of teachers in the vast majority of schools. You cannot discharge the role of head of year and mark and prepare properly for 18 to 20 hours of teaching during the school day. No matter how organised you are even if you work through lunch and break. What do you call using time wisely? Cutting corners? I am intrigued where and how you think all this time is wasted.

You've been teaching for 14 years and yet you need to prepare for every single lesson? Is teaching 'A' level Chemistry a recent departure? Are you an Art teacher who fancied a change? Come on, tell it like it really is.

I remember sitting in the pub with a group of teachers from this particular school, when the subject of whether the job was 'cushy' came up. Not one person mentioned long hours, several mentioned stuff like internal politics, lack of support, oppressive bureaucracy, and all mentioned lack of support when dealing with misbehaviour and confrontation with pupils. Anyway, the point to all this is that the guy who was most adamant that "teachers have it easy" was an 'A' Level Chemistry teacher.

Ok dumb head on this morning, what are HLTA's?

Higher Level Teaching Assistants. Usually at Level 4 - they are qualified to create lesson plans.

Thanks :thumbsup:

If you are a teacher being paid £24000 per annum and you work 39 weeks a year you get £615 per week gross. If you are a research scientist with 2 degrees and get paid £24000 per annum and work 48 weeks per year you get paid £500 per week gross. This means that this teacher gets £1380 per year more than the scientist. Is that fair or not?

Please note I live with a teacher and so therefore I know how much work she does in her own time......

Does a scientist have as much responsiblilty as a teacher? :huh:

Depends on if you're working on a cure for cancer/HIVAIDS/malaria doesn't it?

Depends on if you're working on a cure for cancer/HIVAIDS/malaria doesn't it?

If you do, and you are successful, you will earn a lot more than a teacher. If teaching salaries are so great, why are vacancies at good schools in Sheffield unfilled?

I was under the impression that there were so many supply teachers because there was plenty of permenant (sp? brain gone) teachers??

I was under the impression that there were so many supply teachers because there was plenty of permenant (sp? brain gone) teachers??
Not quite.

There are plenty of supply teachers because that is the easiest, and most pleasant option.

They generally get paid a better rate for doing less work, and are sometimes able to pick and choose the schools they wish to avoid.

They get a slightly better rate because they don't get holiday pay so they are no better off financially, they also often work at very short notice and often don't know which school they are going to until the actual morning of work making child care awkward. They can only pick and choose schools subject to availability and there isn't always a choice and they may well not be teaching their specialist subject. There certainly isn't the same job security, pension/superannuation rights or sick pay.

And supply teachers get less respect from pupils.

Supply teachers haven't got job security either I imagine?

But every single supply teacher I have spoken to is happier now that they are doing supply than they were when 'nailed' to a school.

Why is that then?

They are financially better off for the hours they do. IE 8.45 - 3.30. and in my experience - and I'm sure the experience of most other support staff - most of them are crap.

So basically, to answer kittenta's post, yes there are plenty of supply teachers, not because there is a glut of regular 'nailed' teachers, but because most of them prefer it that way and are happy with the wages and lack of responsibility and extra work.

But every single supply teacher I have spoken to is happier now that they are doing supply than they were when 'nailed' to a school.

Why is that then?

They are financially better off for the hours they do. IE 8.45 - 3.30. and in my experience - and I'm sure the experience of most other support staff - most of them are crap.

So basically, to answer kittenta's post, yes there are plenty of supply teachers, not because there is a glut of regular 'nailed' teachers, but because most of them prefer it that way and are happy with the wages and lack of responsibility and extra work.

But are they guarnteed work? Do they know that they will earn enough every week to support a family?

But are they guarnteed work? Do they know that they will earn enough every week to support a family?

As I wrote:

"But every single supply teacher I have spoken to is happier now that they are doing supply than they were when 'nailed' to a school."

"They are financially better off for the hours they do. IE 8.45 - 3.30. and in my experience - and I'm sure the experience of most other support staff - most of them are crap."

"So basically, to answer kittenta's post, yes there are plenty of supply teachers, not because there is a glut of regular 'nailed' teachers, but because most of them prefer it that way and are happy with the wages and lack of responsibility and extra work."

Which answers your original question,
I was under the impression that there were so many supply teachers because there was plenty of permenant (sp? brain gone) teachers??

No, there aren't so many supply teachers because there are plenty of permanent teachers. There are so many supply teachers because the supplies prefer to be supply as there is less work and less responsibility, and if they chose it to be this way, then there must be something in it for them other than less annual income and security.

But every single supply teacher I have spoken to is happier now that they are doing supply than they were when 'nailed' to a school.

Why is that then?

They are financially better off for the hours they do. IE 8.45 - 3.30. and in my experience - and I'm sure the experience of most other support staff - most of them are crap.

So basically, to answer kittenta's post, yes there are plenty of supply teachers, not because there is a glut of regular 'nailed' teachers, but because most of them prefer it that way and are happy with the wages and lack of responsibility and extra work.Why do you think supply teachers are crap? If they are invited to go to a school at a moments notice they don't have chance to prepare any lessons, they go into a class of strangers who try it on because they are unfamiliar with each other and they are often asked to teach a subject they are also unfamiliar with and may only do one days work before leaving so there is no time to prove whether they are good, bad or indifferent. However they do have a wide range of experience of different schools which many other teachers don't have because they have always been at the same school. They may not have to do as much out of hours work but that may be the reason they choose to be supply teachers.
If some teachers didn't have so much extended time off for absenteeism, courses and stress there wouldn't be such a demand for supply teachers.

Why do you think supply teachers are crap? A If they are invited to go to a school at a moments notice they don't have chance to prepare any lessons, they go into a class of strangers who try it on because they are unfamiliar with each other B and they are often asked to teach a subject they are also unfamiliar with and may only do one days work before leaving so there is no time to prove whether they are good, bad or indifferent. However they do have a wide range of experience of different schools which many other teachers don't have because they have always been at the same school. C They may not have to do as much out of hours work but that may be the reason they choose to be supply teachers.
If some teachers didn't have so much extended time off for absenteeism, courses and stress there wouldn't be such a demand for supply teachers.
So your point is??

A They get supplied with the regular teacher's plans for that day...Fact. Supply teachers, although it is their job, and get paid well for it, should be 'acceptably' crap at their job? Not all supplies are crap by the way. I didn't say that.

B A supply teacher, who regularly works at primary schools, is unfamiliar with primary level Maths, English, Science etc? Maybe they would be better off working in McDonalds or somewhere similar, not in the teaching profession.:suspect:

C Which is exactly what I said here:

So basically, to answer kittenta's post, yes there are plenty of supply teachers, not because there is a glut of regular 'nailed' teachers, but because most of them prefer it that way and are happy with the wages and lack of responsibility and extra work.

I know there are arguments about how many weeks children get off at a time and many parents say they get too long off :hihi: but do you think school hours are too long? Sparked by another thread it got me thinking as to how much time people spend with their children. Obviously shorter hours may be akward for those with no-one at home during the day but could children benefit from shorter school days? Or should they be there longer?

LOOOOL, sorry

1: the reason people spend less time with their children isnt to do with the school hours, its to do with work hours (which are the longest in europe) and the fact most people need to work longer, have two jobs just to live these days.

2: i went to school from 9 till 3.30....never did me any harm, mind u id have liked shorter hours when i was at school tbh :D it goes without saying

3: and while were on the subject whats with all these teacher training days etc these days???? we never had any while i was at school, again never did me any harm (or did it?) they have more and more these days, specially round christmas...hmmm funny that (teacher shopping days??, teacher getting ****** days??)

3: and while were on the subject whats with all these teacher training days etc these days???? we never had any while i was at school, again never did me any harm (or did it?) they have more and more these days, specially round christmas...hmmm funny that (teacher shopping days??, teacher getting ****** days??)

I agree with that, alot of the school holidays seem to start with the friday before the holiday as a training day and end with the monday after the holiday as a training day.

If we're to believe what we're told about how hard teachers work during holidays (and I know for a fact that thats a load of rubbish in the case of the teachers I know) then why can't the training days be held during the holiday?

I agree with that, alot of the school holidays seem to start with the friday before the holiday as a training day and end with the monday after the holiday as a training day.

If we're to believe what we're told about how hard teachers work during holidays (and I know for a fact that thats a load of rubbish in the case of the teachers I know) then why can't the training days be held during the holiday?
They are 'staff' training days, not just for teachers, so as the support staff etc don't get paid for their holidays they wouldn't be available for these training days if held in holiday weeks.

Anyhow, what's the problem? It means the parents get to spend a couple of extra days with their kids. :hihi: That can't be bad, can it? :thumbsup:

They are 'staff' training days, not just for teachers, so as the support staff etc don't get paid for their holidays they wouldn't be available for these training days if held in holiday weeks.

Anyhow, what's the problem? It means the parents get to spend a couple of extra days with their kids. :hihi: That can't be bad, can it? :thumbsup:

Well yes, if the kids are already bored rigid and you've run out of childcare to cover your wor and money to take the to interesting places etc.
Lets face it, the school holidays are long enough without tacking days on.

An easy solution to the support staff issue is - pay em to do training days during the holidays - no problem :thumbsup:

They are financially better off for the hours they do. IE 8.45 - 3.30. and in my experience - and I'm sure the experience of most other support staff - most of them are crap.


Supply teachers find the standard of support staff varies enormously too.

So your point is??

A They get supplied with the regular teacher's plans for that day...Fact. Supply teachers, although it is their job, and get paid well for it, should be 'acceptably' crap at their job? Not all supplies are crap by the way. I didn't say that.

B A supply teacher, who regularly works at primary schools, is unfamiliar with primary level Maths, English, Science etc? Maybe they would be better off working in McDonalds or somewhere similar, not in the teaching profession.:suspect:

C Which is exactly what I said here:A. I didn't say they were crap or that it is acceptable, I said the reasons why they may not appear to be as good as the usual teacher and they don't always get the usual teacher plans and they may be given a subject they are not familiar with.

B. Supply teachers are as qualified as the normal staff and definately far more qualified than support staff but it wouldn't say much for the normal teachers and staff if a supply teacher could just walk in and do exactly the same job immediately, that would be like McDonlds.

Supply teachers find the standard of support staff varies enormously too.
I dare say they do, but a £50 a day teaching assistant isn't really supposed to run the class for the £100+ a day supply teacher, along with correcting wrong info fed to the kids, seeing to discipline etc.... which too often happens.

What do they do?

If the supply teacher receives the usual teacher's lesson plans, as you state in an earlier post, then wrong info should not be fed to the children. What in fact often happens is the supply teacher arrives at the lesson to find no cover work has been set at all, or if work has been set it is often off topic, too little or work the children have already completed. A good TA should help the supply teacher with this and a good supply teacher will be only too happy to allow the TA to lead in these circumstances.

A. I didn't say they were crap or that it is acceptable, I said the reasons why they may not appear to be as good as the usual teacher and they don't always get the usual teacher plans and they may be given a subject they are not familiar with.
B. Supply teachers are as qualified as the normal staff and definately far more qualified than support staff but it wouldn't say much for the normal teachers and staff if a supply teacher could just walk in and do exactly the same job immediately, that would be like McDonlds.
A The ones I'm talking about are given the teacher's plans, and how come a qualified primary school teacher isn't familiar with primary level maths/literacy/science etc., or at least the delivery of them?

B Then they'd know primary level maths etc, and be familiar with it....wouldn't they? Obviously the teacher is more qualified than the support staff, they have the paperwork to prove it. They aren't necessarily always better at carrying out the task though. As I have already stated, the support staff are very often running the class where some supply teachers are concerned. And this is along with controlling and entertaining the small group of less able or difficult kids for whom the support staff is initially responsible.

Myself, and others support staff have practically 'carried' supply teachers through a day or more of cover because they haven't had a clue about how to speak to the kids, deliver the lesson, nor differentiate between the groups, and have appeared to be there just for the income. Still, it's nice to know that they are more qualified than the support staff are, eh?

I've lost count of the number of times the support staff at our school have requested that certain supplies be put on our 'ignore' list as we feel we might as well have taken the class ourselves, not them, and the teacher whose class they took is usually in agreement.

Sounds like you should double your wage and become a teacher since you are better than some of them cos it seems they have the laugh on you.

If the supply teacher receives the usual teacher's lesson plans, as you state in an earlier post, then wrong info should not be fed to the children. What in fact often happens is the supply teacher arrives at the lesson to find no cover work has been set at all, or if work has been set it is often off topic, too little or work the children have already completed. A good TA should help the supply teacher with this and a good supply teacher will be only too happy to allow the TA to lead in these circumstances.

A good one, yes, and they do. As I am trying to point out, they aren't all good. Some are as much use as a babysitter would be.

What do they do?

What do who do?

Support staff, what's their role at the school?

Sounds like you should double your wage and become a teacher since you are better than some of them cos it seems they have the laugh on you.
If I wanted to be a teacher I would have had a go at being one.

I have stated before, on other threads, that I wouldn't do a teacher's job for any wage because as far as I am concerned they have a lousy time of it and I don't envy them. I wouldn't want the crap and stress they have.

I also wouldn't want a supply's job - even if I could qualify - because I want the regular income not the 'as-and-when' income they have.

I have not said that I am any better at 'teaching' than a teacher is, any teacher, I just said (if you care to read it properly) that some supplies make mistakes, lose the plot, show very little interest, and rely on the support staff to get them through the day a little too much. Which basically means that they are not providing the service the school is paying for and the parents expect for their kids.

PS.

I can't fly a Boeng 747, but I bet I can tell when one is being landed badly, and so could you, and I'm sure we could both be allowed to comment on it without being able to land the plane any better ourselves. ;)

I'm not suggesting anyone isn't allowed to comment but your comments are crying out for the kind of response I have given.

A good one, yes, and they do. As I am trying to point out, they aren't all good. Some are as much use as a babysitter would be.

The same can be said of individuals from all professions, some good and conscientious, others just along for the ride. Enough from me on this now, this thread has strayed too far, I have no desire to argue over an individual's personal bêtes noires.

Support staff, what's their role at the school?

TAs = Work with small groups in or out of class at the teacher's discretion and in conjunction with any Individual Education Plans (IEPs) set up for any individual child.

Assist in the assessment of pupil progress and observe pupils as requested by teacher.

Prepare resources as required by the teacher to be used in the delivery of a lesson.

First Aid cover - if qualified.

Support the teacher.

May involve working across two or more classes.

.................................................. ..
SEN TAs = As per TAs above, but also manage behaviour and withdrawal of difficult children as delegated. Assisting with drawing up of IEPs and behaviour targets.

Support the teacher.

.................................................. ...
HLTAs = All above plus deliver lessons during teacher short term absence.

Depending on school, To take whole classes to supply cover for teachers' PPA time and use the HLTA's strengths to advantage. (IE Art/ PE/ DRAMA/ MUSIC) wherever possible.

Depending on school, To cover for teachers PPA/admin time for up to 4.5 days a week giving one half day for HLTA's own PPA time. Delivering lessons across the curriculum where possible, marking and assessing resultant work if asked to do so.

Depending on school, Run 'after-school' activities on or off site.

Support several teachers, and assist school-wide.

Pretty much what a teacher would be expected to do when required, but minus the out-of-hours hassle and responsibilities.

Ok, thanks. It would seem from that, that if a supply teacher comes into a school it is inevitable that they will lean on the support staff since they know all about the class and what goes on there, I can see that might cause some resentment but I can't see how it would work any other way.

deletion of post

The same can be said of individuals from all professions, some good and conscientious, others just along for the ride. Enough from me on this now, this thread has strayed too far, I have no desire to argue over an individual's personal bêtes noires.
Exactly, and that is why I said 'most of them' ... not all. Or didn't you read that bit? I have worked with some brilliant individual supply teachers who are sometimes better than the staff they were covering for.

I'm not suggesting anyone isn't allowed to comment but your comments are crying out for the kind of response I have given.
Sorry, but seeing someone doing a job - for which they get paid well - badly, and commenting on it is, I feel, justified.....no matter what that job is.
The supplies who are bad, and are aware of this fact should be feeling a little hurt at my comments, granted, but those who are good at the job - and there are many - shouldn't feel at all upset by my comments .... anymore than I should feel peeved at raine's comment about substandard support staff. I accept, there are plenty knocking around. I don't know any personally, but there must be some and they shouldn't be doing the job. I may be one of those. I don't know as I haven't been informed of this fact ..... yet.:(

Sorry, but seeing someone doing a job - for which they get paid well - badly, and commenting on it is, I feel, justified.....no matter what that job is.
(I haven't suggested you shouldn't comment. It's strange that you think the supply teachers are well paid and yet other contributors on here think they aren't. If support staff are only getting £50 a day that is pretty bad pay for any job.

Ok, thanks. It would seem from that, that if a supply teacher comes into a school it is inevitable that they will lean on the support staff since they know all about the class and what goes on there, I can see that might cause some resentment but I can't see how it would work any other way.

Resentment is the wrong word. Maybe being pee'd off at having to carry someone through their working day would be more apt.

The supplies to whom I am refering do not lean on the support staff so much as take a back seat or tread water for six hours or so. And as I have already said, feedback on the supply's performance is usually given to the teacher they covered for and/or the school office .... even positive and good feedback by the way.

I tell you what, next time you are on holiday why don't you go in and decorate your office or tidy out your filing cabinet? Or maybe if you work in retail, go and put some orders in, recruit the Christmas staff or make sure the toilets are clean? Perhaps you could have some customer care training? See none of this is to do with your ACTUAL job is it? (Not that i know what you do.)



Well believe it or not most of nurses that I work with do have work to do in their own time as we're usually involved in audit, or education and development or other work that simply cant be done at the same time as patient care.
The difference is that our patient contact time is full time (ie all of our working hours) and not 9 - 330, meaning that the extra work is always unpaid and in our own time. We do a twelve hour shift atually wiht the patients and then do the other stuff as an unpaid extra.

I think you'll find its a part of most professions, the only difference is that the rest of us dont get the massive amount of holidays that teachers do, and then spend all our time complaining about how much work we do in those holidays.

Teachers can winge until they're blue in the face about how much work they have to do outside school hours. Unfortunatly those of us who know people who are teachers know that in the majority of cases it simply isn't true or grossly over exagerated.

Deleting post. No point making it.

TBH I think that if you work those hours it is ridiculous, it's certainly not obligatory so you are either hopelessly disorganised or hopelessly conscientious. If it's the latter you should think yourself lucky that you have a job which you enjoy so much because most people don't, if it is any other reason it's shut up or put up I'm afraid. Unfortunately as Scoop said earlier moaning about the hours but still carrying on being one is part of being a teacher and you will always have the holiday argument chucked back at you.

Deleting post.... no point.

I will repeat again that I am not a troll so please don't insult me just because I'm questioning something which happens to irritate you, thank you very much. I know lots of teachers and they just don't work those hours. It is not in your contract to work those hours and there would be no sanctions against you if you didn't so you are therefore doing it for your own benefit, which is fine, but you shouldn't complain about it. I stand to be corrected but from what you have posted you sound like you are a primary school teacher which is easier than secondary school so how come you are spinning your hours out to even longer than they do?

Yes. I also have two best friends who are nurses. Both of them would agree that what they have to do is a drop in the ocean at home to what I have to do, one of them is a clincial educator so does a lot of her prep at home.

Well if she's a clincal educator she's onw of the lucky ones as she'll be getting paid office time, a rare luxury in nursing.





yeah but you don't spend six hours etc of one of your rest days working EVERY week do you?


How do you know?

As far as the holidays go, I've worked it out before that I was better off in my last job with 33 days off plus bank holidays and 2 free days every week.
If i brought work home from that it would only be 2/3 hours every week.

As a teacher I officially get paid 1265 hours a year. 1170 are teaching time leaving 95 hours a year. This is to include a weekly meeting of an hour (39) which leaves 51 hours - about an hour and a half a week. As I do a club twice a week that's another 2 hours - 6 hours, break duty two days. I think you've more than run out of directed time there That doesn't even cover report writing which i spend my whole spring break writing, parent's evenings and supporting school fairs, fetes, summer floats etc. Wanna swap?


I've been barstaff, shopgirl, a manager, a business owner and a trainer before i did this and none of them were as hard work as teaching.

I didn't have a clue how time consuming this job would be before I decided to do it four years ago and so would ask all the "teachers get it easy lot" to give us a break - we work bloody hard!

I'm sorry but you're just prooving my point. All professional people end up doing some work in their own time. You're just lucky that the actual contact time with your clients (pupils in your case,patients in mine) is actually quite short in order to accomodate this.

It doesn't matter how often you say it, we all know that teachers are not putting in the kind of hours during holiday time that you describe.
One of my husbands close friends is a tacher of 10 years standing. He is in the pub by 7pm at the latest most week nights, plays golf saturday and sunday most weekends and is regularly away playing golf in portugal during school holidays.
No one else I know who holds down a professional job has anywhere near as much spare time or holiday time as him.

I know two other teachers who are perhaps a little bit more concientious, but again, I know that neither of them are doing the kind of hours you describe.

For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting that teachers dont work hard, but to continue to insist that you've got it harder than everyone else when you clearly haven't is just not going to win ant sympathy TBH.

Deleting post. No point.

You are correct that I am primary. Easier?:| In what way? Perhaps I am wrong and you are infact a school inspector that is qualified to comment on this?

Ah see now he's trying to divide and conquer the teacher lot! :oThat's pathetic Edna. I don't need to conquer the teaching profession or any other for that matter.

How do you know?
*ok fair enough I don't.*

It doesn't matter how often you say it, we all know that teachers are not putting in the kind of hours during holiday time that you describe.

Different teaching roles require different hours. Perhaps your friend has a job that doesn't involve much marking? So if it doesn't matter what I say I'll not waste my time any longer here then.

Good......

That's pathetic Edna. I don't need to conquer the teaching profession or any other for that matter.

It was a pathetic joke I'll admit. WHOOOSH!!!!

So if it doesn't matter what I say I'll not waste my time any longer here then.

Thats probably best, because none of what you say really bares any resemblance to the lives of teachers I've known, past and present.

Surely some teachers will have more work to do at home than others depending on the school they work for? I know some schools aren't bothered about homework etc and don't keep an eye on what the teachers provide. Other schools do take more interest in what they teachers are doing and therefore work at home has to be done. I know the teachers I have spoken to all complain on how many of the meetings they have are a waste of time and often didn't really need them to be there.

How closely are lessons monitored by someone other than the teacher giving the lessons?

Mod. Note

Darbess....you seem to be keen to make this a personal issue.

Don't. Keep it on topic and don't make it personal.

Thank you.

The teachers do not HAVE TO work these hours at home, they choose to do it because they want to do something over and above what they are paid for which is fine, but it can apply to any job and it's not obligatory. Unfortunately as you can see from the posts above they lose track of what and why they are doing this and expect martyr status, teaching is particularly good at this but most decent jobs are not exact hours to the minute.

You don't know how lucky you were. We had to get up before we had gone to bed, lick the road for breakfast then walk 25 miles to school on our hands. We had to work 12 hours at school and then got another 12 hours of homework.

:wink: :wink:

*points*

the three yorkshiremen sketch is thataway >>>>>

:wink: :wink:

I haven't suggested you shouldn't comment. It's strange that you think the supply teachers are well paid and yet other contributors on here think they aren't. If support staff are only getting £50 a day that is pretty bad pay for any job.

That's called a difference of opinion, and the fact that more people have one opinion than have the other, that doesn't make one more worthy than the other. To me, a supply teacher's rate of pay is a fortune.

As for the low pay a level 2 TA gets, then the TAs recieving it must be content or they wouldn't be doing it. Maybe they get job satisfaction and a sense of reward. I know I did - most of the time - when I was doing it.

That's called a difference of opinion, and the fact that more people have one opinion than have the other, that doesn't make one more worthy than the other. To me, a supply teacher's rate of pay is a fortune.

As for the low pay a level 2 TA gets, then the TAs recieving it must be content or they wouldn't be doing it. Maybe they get job satisfaction and a sense of reward. I know I did - most of the time - when I was doing it.Unlike some people I don't have any problem with differences of opinion, that's what makes the world go round :thumbsup:

You've been teaching for 14 years and yet you need to prepare for every single lesson? Is teaching 'A' level Chemistry a recent departure? Are you an Art teacher who fancied a change? Come on, tell it like it really is.

I remember sitting in the pub with a group of teachers from this particular school, when the subject of whether the job was 'cushy' came up. Not one person mentioned long hours, several mentioned stuff like internal politics, lack of support, oppressive bureaucracy, and all mentioned lack of support when dealing with misbehaviour and confrontation with pupils. Anyway, the point to all this is that the guy who was most adamant that "teachers have it easy" was an 'A' Level Chemistry teacher.

Yeah ok you must be right as you heard a bloke say it how it is in a pub. The A level I mentioned was marking and is massive. Not and never been an art teacher, you really don't have a clue, but like many on here think knocking teachers is a fine hobby. I am all for debate and differences in opinion but when one group of posters are not in posession of the correct facts there is no point...signing off, will not read anymore.:loopy:

It is not in your contract to work those hours and there would be no sanctions against you if you didn't so you are therefore doing it for your own benefit, which is fine, but you shouldn't complain about it. I stand to be corrected but from what you have posted you sound like you are a primary school teacher which is easier than secondary school so how come you are spinning your hours out to even longer than they do?


Just shows how little you really know, factually incorrect on so many levels...I am with Edna...toodlepip:loopy:

Just shows how little you really know, factually incorrect on so many levels...I am with Edna...toodlepip:loopy:Point me in the direction of somewhere that proves teachers are contracted to work 60 hours a week and I'll concede and stand corrected.

Yeah ok you must be right as you heard a bloke say it how it is in a pub. The A level I mentioned was marking and is massive. Not and never been an art teacher, you really don't have a clue, but like many on here think knocking teachers is a fine hobby. I am all for debate and differences in opinion but when one group of posters are not in posession of the correct facts there is no point...signing off, will not read anymore.:loopy:

A bloke down the pub? No, read again, an 'A' level chemistry teacher down the pub - the difference is critical here.

It's a shame you don't feel able to contribute and refuse to accept that others may have differing experiences to yours; it would have been interesting to try to establish why people doing the same job at different schools have such widely differing experiences.

Come and hide behind my sofa with me Tricky, I'm used to it. :thumbsup:

I reckon it's safe to come out now - anyway, we've run out of pizza.

I must say I'm rather surprised that he could get a break from work so early in the evening, that's only 6 hours after school finished.

To say there is supposed to be a shortage of teachers everyone seems to know one :)

Reading this thread is a bit off putting actually (yes I know I started it) I want to teach but i'm not sure I want to give up spending time with my own kids for the pleasure :( I wouldn't want longer school hours either :D

For those 71 people who voted that school hours should be longer, why should they be longer? What do you think it would achieve?

Based on what I have seen of your various posts over the months you come across as a dedicated mother, I don't know how old your kids are but I think that if it's possible, the best thing a mum can do for her kids is to work as little as possible. Nothing wrong with the pleasure of spending time with the kids.

Based on what I have seen of your various posts over the months you come across as a dedicated mother, I don't know how old your kids are but I think that if it's possible, the best thing a mum can do for her kids is to work as little as possible. Nothing wrong with the pleasure of spending time with the kids.


Thanks :) My kids are 5 and 9. I'd love to be able to spend every minute with them but I want to teach them some values too, can't do that sat on my backside can I! Plus i've always wanted to teach, even as a child that's what I wanted to do. I've just done my life backwards, have kids then the career :D

For those 71 people who voted that school hours should be longer, why should they be longer? What do you think it would achieve?

Considering a lesson is usually an hour, a fair chunk of the start is wasted getting the kids into class, getting their coats off, books, pens and planners out. Same again when packing up at the end of the lesson.

Thanks :) My kids are 5 and 9. I'd love to be able to spend every minute with them but I want to teach them some values too, can't do that sat on my backside can I! Plus i've always wanted to teach, even as a child that's what I wanted to do. I've just done my life backwards, have kids then the career :DGo for it then, if you don't have degree it will take at least 4 years unless you want to be a TA in which case you can virtually walk straight in but only on half the pay. What age do you want to teach?

Go for it then, if you don't have degree it will take at least 4 years unless you want to be a TA in which case you can virtually walk straight in but only on half the pay. What age do you want to teach?

Yes I know I need a degree, been looking into it. I need to get gsce science too seeing as I missed out of not needing it by four months :rant: I did want to work in school whilst training but can't because I need a degree first, apparently. I want to teach primary, possibly lower end of primary though age 4-6 but I don't suppose it would matter.

Considering a lesson is usually an hour, a fair chunk of the start is wasted getting the kids into class, getting their coats off, books, pens and planners out. Same again when packing up at the end of the lesson.

Isn't that why some schools go in at 8:50 though (some earlier)? I thought that most teachers kept the kids working till the bell went? I know we used to.

Yes I know I need a degree, been looking into it. I need to get gsce science too seeing as I missed out of not needing it by four months :rant: I did want to work in school whilst training but can't because I need a degree first, apparently. I want to teach primary, possibly lower end of primary though age 4-6 but I don't suppose it would matter.Needs a lot of commitment but I know someone who was single parent and had a child during the course as a mature student and still completed it successfully so it can be done if you really want to.

Needs a lot of commitment but I know someone who was single parent and had a child during the course as a mature student and still completed it successfully so it can be done if you really want to.

Well I started out with nothing but got two good gcses and a certificate in humanties now and half through an A level course. I'll get there :D just bored in the mean time, may have to do some voluntary helping in schools :)

LOOOOL, sorry



2: i went to school from 9 till 3.30....never did me any harm, mind u id have liked shorter hours when i was at school tbh :D it goes without saying



Hi i dont mean to be rude but "it never did me any harm"? The point is, was it an advantage to your education. Did you excel because you were studying for longer? Or would you have done better with fewer hours but a higher standard of education. In my opinion it never did me any harm is not good enough. Education needs to bring out the best in our children and encourage them to acheive their goals. It needs to give them a good basis to lead secure happy adult lives.

Education needs to bring out the best in our children and encourage them to acheive their goals. It needs to give them a good basis to lead secure happy adult lives.

Agreed on the first part, but it's probably asking rather too much of Education (as a vague super-entity) to provide the basis for all future happiness. The responsibility for adult happiness lies with the individual adult.

Agreed on the first part, but it's probably asking rather too much of Education (as a vague super-entity) to provide the basis for all future happiness. The responsibility for adult happiness lies with the individual adult.

I didnt say all but if a child spends that amount of time in school. The school is responsible as well as the parents for the type af adult that child becomes. Schools cant just take praise for the amount of children they have managed to get to pass their G.C.S.Es it has to take responsibility for the children that they have failed too.

I really don't think the kids get a proper education during the hours they are there now without making them longer. They already waste half of the time they are there as it is. Quality not quantity springs to mind

Agreed on the first part, but it's probably asking rather too much of Education (as a vague super-entity) to provide the basis for all future happiness. The responsibility for adult happiness lies with the individual adult.

Ok so an adult can be happy without having got an education when younger but how many adults now say 'I wish i'd had a better education at school'. Many adults would have been much happier in a better job than the ones they have and are now going to college to get the education to get the job they would be happier in. Did that make sense? :suspect:

Ok so an adult can be happy without having got an education when younger but how many adults now say 'I wish i'd had a better education at school'. Many adults would have been much happier in a better job than the ones they have and are now going to college to get the education to get the job they would be happier in. Did that make sense? :suspect:

The children who try hard at school and go on to get a good degree are normally the ones who are encouraged by their parents and helped.
If parents put little stock in education then children don't try hard.

It's a schools job to teach, but it's the parents job to make the children want to learn.

I'm not sure you can 'make the children want to learn'. You can show them the right path and encourage them, and show them the benefits but you can't make them. Unfortunatly :rolleyes:

Parents have a massive influence on children, particularly whilst they are young.
Whatever attitude the parents have towards education will almost certainly be copied by the child. And since children generally seek approval from their parents if the parents continue to approve of good behaviour at school and a willingness to learn then the child will continue to behave in that way.
By the time they're old enough to form different opinions they should have seen for them self that being successful in education will lead to a better life.

Either way, what i'm trying to say is that the role of parents in education is massive and vitally important.

I have always encouaged my children to learn and given them positive ideas of education. I have one who adores school and asks for homework and one who hates it and won't do any work if he can get away with it. Yes I agree that parents play a huge role but so does the school.

They do play a big part, but their job is purely to educate, nothing more, nothing less.

They do play a big part, but their job is purely to educate, nothing more, nothing less.What's the definition of "educate"? Does that only cover academic education or to educate them in how to conduct themselves in life which is something a lot of kids clearly lack and their parents lack the ability to give them, thus causing the downward spiral we see in certain socio demographic groups.

They do play a big part, but their job is purely to educate, nothing more, nothing less.

Why is it only to educate. If the school takes your children for all those hours of the day they have to be responsible for the childs behavior aswell.

Teaching has to go beyond simple maths and written english. They have to guide the children regarding other things, behaviour for example.

They no longer have any power to discipline or enforce any kind of behavioural standards on children, only parents have the power to do that.
Parents bring up children, schools educate them. Expecting schools to do a parents job is abrogation of the parents duties.

They no longer have any power to discipline or enforce any kind of behavioural standards on children, only parents have the power to do that.They should have that power but don't.
Parents bring up children, schools educate them. Expecting schools to do a parents job is abrogation of the parents duties.In an ideal world that should happen but unfortunately it is far from ideal and so there is a dire need for such education with a large part of the population.

Pushing the responsibilities onto teachers and schools who are neither prepared nor willing to accept the burden is not the answer.
Maybe child benefits should be linked to academic performance, or at least academic attitude in the child, that would probably rekindle the love of parents showing an interest in education.

Pushing the responsibilities onto teachers and schools who are neither prepared nor willing to accept the burden is not the answer.
Maybe child benefits should be linked to academic performance, or at least academic attitude in the child, that would probably rekindle the love of parents showing an interest in education.I think you need to spend a little time in one of these schools on sink estates and see what the reality is. The world doesn't revolve around academic performance and attitude btw.

I agree. My old school had a special class to teach children how to use knives and forks and basic table manners. This is a secondary school. Their entire life consisted of eating takeaway food with their hands.

I think you need to spend a little time in one of these schools on sink estates and see what the reality is. The world doesn't revolve around academic performance and attitude btw.

The world doesn't, but schools do.

The world doesn't, but schools do.No they don't, nor should they.

Pushing the responsibilities onto teachers and schools who are neither prepared nor willing to accept the burden is not the answer.
Maybe child benefits should be linked to academic performance, or at least academic attitude in the child, that would probably rekindle the love of parents showing an interest in education.

And what about those parents who do show a huge amount of interest in education and still the child has no interest?

How can a parent show their child how not to respond to what that other child said in the classroom when they aren't there? Teachers have to step in sometimes. I'm not saying it is a teachers job to teach every child how to behave but in some situations they have to. A parent cannot teach their child everything before they start school. Children learn as they grow.

The children who try hard at school and go on to get a good degree are normally the ones who are encouraged by their parents and helped.
If parents put little stock in education then children don't try hard.

It's a schools job to teach, but it's the parents job to make the children want to learn.

That is so true :banana:

That is so true :banana:


It is true, the majority of the time, but not all the time. It's like saying if a parent cares about education their children will and that's how it is, good in theory and true for many, but again, not all.

I agree it won't work in every case, but the education system has to cater for what is normal, not what is unusual.
In which case it's just is in general just to teach, english, maths, geography and all the rest. Not how to be a good person, or how to use a knife and fork.
If parents are failing to that extent then the government needs to come up with another solution. (Maybe involving sterilisation... partially tongue in cheek).

Children are automatically taught other things at school though aren't they. Organisation, following rules, how to respond to certain situations, it's all unavoidable learning so why can't, behaviour for example, fall into this? I don't really see that they have any option these days. Some parents won't do anything about a disruptive child and some can't. They still have to put up with them at school, they can't just ignore them. My sons school refused my offer of help as they preffered to deal with his behaviour themselves, that was their choice.
I suppose different teachers have different values, ways of teaching and different ideas of what they should and shouldn't be teaching as well.

If parents are failing to that extent then the government needs to come up with another solution. (Maybe involving sterilisation... partially tongue in cheek).Many parents are failing to that extent and the place where the kids go all day is school where they can be taught how to become decent citizens. I have to disagree that school is intended to lead every kid to a degree since most people do not get a degree anyway.

I don't think I claimed that it should lead everyone to higher education, there are other ways of becoming a successful adult and continuing education isn't for everyone.
Whilst schools may implicitly teach lots of things, some through the requirements that are placed on the children and others by example, these should stay implicit. To make them implicit changes the role of the teacher to something else entirely.