Hi,

I am currently looking for information on William and Lawrence Fowler and the Plommer Murder.

I have established that it all started due to a "gentleman" (I use that term losely) called Trimmer Welsh and his advances to a bar maid.

I also know that the murder occured after two other scuffles between the brothers and Plommer. He had beaten them twice and knocked their egos and Wilfred about.

I would like to know which Pub the intial problems started and where the Brothers where from. I am intrested in any information you can provide me with as i am a bit of a local history geek and also may be related to them unfortunately.

I have read the gang wars thread and was intrested in the other details of the gang wars.

Please help me out!

Cheers

You probably know this already but there's an excellent book about this called the Sheffield Gang Wars by J P Bean - the Sheffield Scene shop on Surrey Street will almost certainly have it.

I read it recently and couldn't put it down. My partner's father was vaguely related to one of the gang members mentioned in it.

Yea I got it from the libary a couple of years ago. Top book!

Just trying to find out the specifics if anyone knows them.

Cheers Pal

Hi,

how are you related to them?

Cheers

Originally posted by Cathrine
Hi,

how are you related to them?

Cheers

They were some relation to my grandfather i believe. Possibly unclues. I'm unsure it's something i have always been told but never givens to many specifics.

Are u a relation yourself?

Hi

Yep, Lawrence was my Great Grandfather. Dont know much about it apart from reading the book and talking to my Mum and Dad (he was my Mum's Grandfather). Apparently my dad was told to stay away from my Mum because of it?? and this was 40 years or more after it had happened!!

Very strange

Yea it is strange.

I found out from my mother who married in to the family.

Lawernce and wilfred are quite distant relations yet it was still known in our side of the family.

They were some relation to my grandfather i believe. Possibly unclues. I'm unsure it's something i have always been told but never givens to many specifics.

Are u a relation yourself?
hi i am also related to the fowler brothers do you know of the goddards as my family tree takes us to the fowler broth via the goddards

hi i am also related to the fowler brothers do you know of the goddards as my family tree takes us to the fowler broth via the goddards

Hello,
My Great Grandfather was called Robert, I believe he was Wilbert and Lawrence's brother, (older) He was a barber by trade and had a son called Robert (Bob) (my grandad). He left Sheffield in 1913. Am having trouble researching as the 1901 census does not cover Wilfred.

All I know is that he left Sheffield with his son and started afresh and that his brothers were involved in gangs and someone got killed with a poker. I have since got hold of JP Bean book that verifies the story. All the family knew about this but had always being told to not speak of it. There is also a link with Charlie Peace which is a puzzle as he was from a different era, was there another by the same name or were the Fowler's (pre Lawrence and Wilbert) involved in the 1880's gangland. My Grandfather said the Fowler's harboured him for some of the time while he was on the run.
Cannot of being the Fowlers in the Plommer case!

Hi

Yep, Lawrence was my Great Grandfather. Dont know much about it apart from reading the book and talking to my Mum and Dad (he was my Mum's Grandfather). Apparently my dad was told to stay away from my Mum because of it?? and this was 40 years or more after it had happened!!

Very strange

Hello,
My Great Grandfather was called Robert, I believe he was Wilbert and Lawrence's brother, (older) He was a barber by trade and had a son called Robert (Bob) (my grandad). He left Sheffield around 1913. Am having trouble researching as the 1901 census does not cover Wilfred.

All I know is that he left Sheffield with his son and started afresh and that his brothers were involved in gangs and someone got killed with a poker. I have since got hold of JP Bean book that verifies the story. All the family knew about this but had always being told to not speak of it.
There is also a link with Charlie Peace which is a puzzle as he was from a different era, was there another by the same name were the Fowler's (pre Lawrence and Wilfred) involved in the 1880's gangland.

If they were brothers then my great grandfather was your great grandfathers brother

it was the fowler bros. amos stewart.a man called jackson.and two others i forget there names.i lived on the same road as the fowlers.ie don road.
the man they killed was called plommer ex soldier who was not scared of
them.they went to his house on princess st mob handed an used a bayonet
to kill him.i knew amos when he came out of prison.a broken man and so
he should be.it was a cowardly act done by arseholes.

I am researching my family tree and have just discovered that Amos is one of ours (not the pedigree I'd hoped for) I am appalled yet fascinated that someone so vile should be a relative. I would be really interested in any information you have on him please pm with anything you remember, thanks

Amos Had A Coal Yard On Cartonville Road,street ?
My Cousin Work For Him.i Used To Help Him Collect
Coal Money On Friday Nights.amos Used The Gate
Pub On Attercliffe Common.most Of My Info About
The Fowlers Came From My Dad Who Knew Them Well
He Said Spinks Was A Arshole His Brother Was Ok.
Anyway Thats Enough For To Night.

The Graves A Fine And Peacefull Place
But Few I Think Do There Embrace.

Hello,
My Great Grandfather was called George, I believe he was Wilbert and Lawrence's brother, (older) He was a barber by trade and had a son called Robert (Bob) (my grandad). He left Sheffield after the Plommer case. Am having trouble researching as the 1901 census does not cover Wilbert.

All I know is that he left Sheffield with his son and started afresh and that his brothers were involved in gangs and someone got killed with a poker. I have since got hold of JP Bean book that verifies the story. All the family knew about this but had always being told to not speak of it. Bob Fowler must have been about 14 or 15 at the time of the Murder and if so could have known a lot more, he was not a man of many words.
There is also a link with Charlie Peace which is a puzzle as he was from a different era, was there another by the same name were the Fowler's (pre Lawrence and Wilbert) involved in the 1880's gangland.

If they were brothers then my great grandfather was your great grandfathers brotherhi when i asked the only remaining family that would remember the brothers it was well it is best not to know but after reading some of the books that have been printed there is a possibility they were innocent

One Was The Other Was Not . And When Did The Bayonet
Transform Into A Poker.my Old Dad Used To Say J P Bean
Talked An Wrote A Load Of ********.ask About The Bookmaker
Connection.ie (aistrop)?

Are You Well? Im Still Here!

One Was The Other Was Not . And When Did The Bayonet
Transform Into A Poker.my Old Dad Used To Say J P Bean
Talked An Wrote A Load Of ********.ask About The Bookmaker
Connection.ie (aistrop)?

Are You Well? Im Still Here!yes you could be right i have no way of knowing i only know what i have read though they are part of my family tree no one ever would tell us anything it was always a push under the carpet job

My Dad Never Mentioned Lol Having Kids
The Younger One Spinks Party Piece Was To
Throw Used Chip An Fish Papers In Anyones
Face As He Was Walking Down The Common.
Ie Unless They Looked Capable Of Kicking
**** Out Of Him.all In All A Lovely Fellow?


Are You Well? Im Still Here!

My Dad Never Mentioned Lol Having Kids
The Younger One Spinks Party Piece Was To
Throw Used Chip An Fish Papers In Anyones
Face As He Was Walking Down The Common.
Ie Unless They Looked Capable Of Kicking
**** Out Of Him.all In All A Lovely Fellow?


Are You Well? Im Still Here!
i don tthink he did have kids well not that i have found he links to us via my grandparents

Hi, Have got hold of JP Bean book and in the trial section while in condemned cell sure it says Lawrence wrote a sad letter to his eight year old daughter after his final appeal failed. He had a daughter.

My Great Grandfather was the licensee of the Norfolk on Brightside lane. This may be the pub that the barmaid was insulted in. My Father used to tell the story of the Garvins and the Moonies using the Pub after they had been chased out of the city centre by the Police. He also mentioned that they tough guys though they wee they were terrified of one particulat copper called Walter Loxley, a huge man who took them on either one at a time or all together, apparently PC Loxley was a truly terrifying man. Why doesnt Sean Bean do a film or TV play about the gangs? featuring Loxley as the Hero?

My Great Grandfather was the licensee of the Norfolk on Brightside lane. This may be the pub that the barmaid was insulted in. My Father used to tell the story of the Garvins and the Moonies using the Pub after they had been chased out of the city centre by the Police. He also mentioned that they tough guys though they wee they were terrified of one particulat copper called Walter Loxley, a huge man who took them on either one at a time or all together, apparently PC Loxley was a truly terrifying man. Why doesnt Sean Bean do a film or TV play about the gangs? featuring Loxley as the Hero?

A WALTER LOXLEY POLICE CONSTABLE 86 BUTTERMERE ROAD IS LISTED IN THE 1927 KELLYS, WE NEED MORE LIKE HIM NOW BUT THE SOFTEYS WOULD SACK HIM FOR BEING UNKIND TO THUGS.

Sounds like a good idea, people like him were real characters, wonder if he was a wrestler or something. There was a similar policeman in Hull who used to Police the Hessle Road and was known to go into a pub give a fella a good hiding and empty his pockets to give monety back to his wife and kids.

Hi, Have got hold of JP Bean book and in the trial section while in condemned cell sure it says Lawrence wrote a sad letter to his eight year old daughter after his final appeal failed. He had a daughter.hi that is interesting i did not know that i have a george goddard born 1891

this message was removed as I got some basics wrong, sorry folks

My Dad Never Mentioned Lol Having Kids
The Younger One Spinks Party Piece Was To
Throw Used Chip An Fish Papers In Anyones
Face As He Was Walking Down The Common.
Ie Unless They Looked Capable Of Kicking
**** Out Of Him.all In All A Lovely Fellow?


Are You Well? Im Still Here!

well if he didn't have my grandmother then I must be a figment of my own imagination...... Her name was Alice Irene Hodder ne Fowler also known as Renie.

well if he didn't have my grandmother then I must be a figment of my own imagination...... Her name was Alice Irene Hodder ne Fowler also known as Renie.hi i am working on my family tree and and i have reason to believe that we are related to the fowlers please do you know of the goddards annie and john goddard are my great grandparents also the stanilands have you heard any of them names mentioned would be much obliged if you can help allthe best j

hi i am working on my family tree and and i have reason to believe that we are related to the fowlers please do you know of the goddards annie and john goddard are my great grandparents also the stanilands have you heard any of them names mentioned would be much obliged if you can help allthe best j

Hi Cleegirl,

I only know back to Lawrence I am afraid and do not know any of his connections bar Wilfred.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help

Cathrine

Hi Cleegirl,

I only know back to Lawrence I am afraid and do not know any of his connections bar Wilfred.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help

Cathrinehi thanks for your reply i know it is difficult info to find i am still working on it but i can tellyou that lawrence married an edith swift in 1916 and that was the mother of alice irene fowler much obliged

my granma was elsie lishman, bookmakers and coal merchants,they were related to amos stewart he was my mothers uncle,he still has family in sheffield betty,sam garvin is supposed to have jumped on a bus got off and hit a copper thus giving him an alibi.

Hi Just To Say, I'm Researching The Fowler Tree, Lawrence Did Have A Child;

He Married Young, Age 16, In Sheffield 1916 To Alice Swift
They Had A Daughter In 1917, Alice I Fowler. After His 'death' I Believe Alice Married Again, But To Who And Any Other Children I Don't Yet Know.

Hi Just To Say, I'm Researching The Fowler Tree, Lawrence Did Have A Child;

He Married Young, Age 16, In Sheffield 1916 To Alice Swift
They Had A Daughter In 1917, Alice I Fowler. After His 'death' I Believe Alice Married Again, But To Who And Any Other Children I Don't Yet Know.

i am also working on the fowler family tree alice fowler married john hodder in 1936 in the july quarter the first child i can find was in 1940 in the oct quarter named john

A WALTER LOXLEY POLICE CONSTABLE 86 BUTTERMERE ROAD IS LISTED IN THE 1927 KELLYS, WE NEED MORE LIKE HIM NOW BUT THE SOFTEYS WOULD SACK HIM FOR BEING UNKIND TO THUGS.
Agree totally all now political correctness and we are like the aliens from across the pond (God bless America .What about the rest of the world Einstein?) these days sue anybody for everything.

Thanks For The Info, I Know Of All The Children Of Alice I Fowler (rene) And John Hodder, One Of Them Married Into My Family. Hence The Interest, I'm Doing My Family Tree Etc.

Thanks For The Info, I Know Of All The Children Of Alice I Fowler (rene) And John Hodder, One Of Them Married Into My Family. Hence The Interest, I'm Doing My Family Tree Etc.

Hi,

Which one married into your family?

Cathrine

Hi,

Which one married into your family?

Cathrinehi that i am still working on i am linked to the goddards and i think at some time a fowler married a goddard but at the moment i can tfind the link i may have to come to sheffield and go to the archives all the best j

Hi Catherine

Think I'm Correct In This, Your Mum, Hi Cousin.

Jane

Hi Catherine

Think I'm Correct In This, Your Mum, Hi Cousin.

Jane

Ha Ha ! Thought it was you!

Hello!

C

Hi Catherine

Are You Into The Family History Etc? If You Are I Have Lots Of Info, Regarding The Scarratt And Hadfield Family Names Etc.

Jane

Hi Catherine

Are You Into The Family History Etc? If You Are I Have Lots Of Info, Regarding The Scarratt And Hadfield Family Names Etc.

Jane

Hola, not really, I was just looking for a bit in info on Lawrence for my mum. Dad still has the family tree you did him for his 60th so I can use that for the Hadfield/Scarratt side if I ever really get bitten by the bug!

Cat

Hi Cathrine,
Not getting far with researching my Fowler ancestory in Sheffield and our connection with Wilfred and Lawrence. Unless someone can come up with info on who their father was I cannot rule out the possibility that it could have been my great grandfather. His son, my grandfather was born in sheffield in 1907, his father was 36 at the time and have since discovered he married my great gran in York in 1911 they had a daughter by then. Was he having an affair before running off or had he been in a previous relationship with children. He was a soldier. We know there is a connection and that he had a lot of relatives in Sheffield but he was not specific. He was a bit dodgy it would seem, during his army career he was given No1 field punishment tied to a wheel of a gun for deserting his post while guarding some bridge in France, think he was in the local village drinking in the pub. If anyone has a missing link called Robert Fowler born 1871 it is him. Or does anyone know who the brothers father was.
Incidentally my uncle was very surprised when I discovered he may have been named after Reginald Street that joined Fowler Street in Attercliffe. This could be a clue he did say streets and businesses bore our name. This could be a clue to where he grew up.

Im afraid I can't tell you anything about what happened but my dads sister was married to their nephew and to his dieing day protested their innocence My mums sister was also married to Freddy Goddard until as she told me "started knocking her about" who was also arrested in conection with the same murder but later released

I know both were hung at Armley Jail Leeds, but where are they buried? That's if they were buried and not cremated.

I have read Bean's book and found it fascinating. One interesting point was a transcript from one of the court cases. The Judge ask how the defendent got all his bruises. The Policeman's reply was that he had his arm extended and his fist clenched and the defendent ran into it several times. Magic, try that nowadays !! :hihi:

Kevin :cool:

i was told that their remains are still at Armley nick, as are most who are executed,