An interesting proposal....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6435885.stm

I'm not in favour of it. Whilst I agree there are benefits from it, the time will have to be snaffled form somewhere to teach the subject. I would much rather children left Primary / Middle Schools with the ability to read, write, count, do arithmetic and have a basic understanding of simple science, geography and history.

Thoughts?

I can't agree with you.
I do agree that teaching standards are not what they were in other subjects but that's another issue.
I have many friends from other countries that can speak a pile of languages.
3 to 5 is common and it's down to learning while they are very young.

It's our bad attitude in the UK that is the problem.

I can't agree with you.
I do agree that teaching standards are not what they were in other subjects but that's another issue.
I have many friends from other countries that can speak a pile of languages.
3 to 5 is common and it's down to learning while they are very young.

It's our bad attitude in the UK that is the problem.

Like I said, I can see the advantages, but I assume that your friends from other countries with language skills are also good with their own language, are literate and numerate and have a basic understanding of the world around them.

If that were the case for the majority of kids today, I'd have no qualms at all - but I'm not entirely sure that shoving more stuff in when the basics aren't necessarily being properly handled would be a good idea.

Any teachers care to comment?

I know of many that went to village schools with very limited education but can still manage to read and write in their own language and several others as well.
Perhaps it's our governments lack of investment in education and poor standards of teaching that is the problem.
I know that my old maths teacher in Wath is still at the same school and she was rubbish as a teacher as well as hated by pupils and staff alike.

No one could sack her and no other school would want her so the school is stuck with her until she retires are (and this is just hoping) she dies a painful early death.

We have a rubbish attitude in this country to languages and education in general seems to be looked at in targets but not in how good a school really is.
We hear of failing inner city schools but what the hell do you expect when you have high school populations who don't use english as a first language and teachers who are bloody useless.
Wath comp. is now a language collage but all I hear is the little brats using bad language.
This will never get any better until we get rid of the silly idea that kids have rights but no responsabilities.

As a languages graduand I find it terrible that kids aren't already being taught languages at what is the prime time of their life to pick them up.

They'll never be as adept at picking up a foreign language again than in primary school. I would chose them to learn French, say, over history any day. When does using History have any bearing on a future career?!

Well my son started doing French once a week from being 7 years old and loves it. All the primary children in his school learn french.

. When does using History have any bearing on a future career?!


It helps them avoid the mistakes of the past?

The real trouble with Primary schools is that they often divide the day into lessons at all. In the good old days it was possible to mix several subjects up but now many places have an incedibly boring timetable with set hours for literacy and maths.

From what my wife says most of the Primary schools she has been in teach foreign languages anyway.

I think it's good. If you go to most European schools I bet they teach English as well as their main language.

I think it would be good to teach some of the more Eastern languages though, this will be where the key skills are lacking in 15 years or so.

Well, I only begun to really know about my own language when I started to learn another.

I taught myself Hindi (to read and write it as well as speak it) and until then I wasn't really sure what an adjective was, a pronoun was and quite sure which forms of verb one uses with different tenses and so on.

Without a shadow of doubt, my english and particularly my grammar has improved hugely since I started to learn another language.

I am therefore in favour of this scheme!

Replacing some of the pointless busywork with actual education is a good idea. It's not as if kids are learning too much these days, is it?

English is taught from year 3 here in Germany which means they are 9 years old. This varies from area to area but this is how it is where we live. My eldest daughter's next school which she will be starting after the summer holidays offer bilingual studies. This means that she will eventually be studying geography, history, politics e.t.c in English. She will also have the opportunity to learn a third language if she wants to.

I agree with upinwath that the attitude for learning other languages is wrong in the UK.

As a languages graduand I find it terrible that kids aren't already being taught languages at what is the prime time of their life to pick them up.

They'll never be as adept at picking up a foreign language again than in primary school. I would chose them to learn French, say, over history any day. When does using History have any bearing on a future career?!

A generally rounded education is of value - people who fail to learn the lessons from the past tend to make the same mistakes in the future.

If space were to be found for a foreign language, funnily enough I'd push for Chinese....

I learnt French and German at school and the last time I used either was in translating part of an article in a German Biochemistry journal from German to English, 25 years ago.

I was formally taught grammar as part of my English lessons - I think that English being such an irregular language means that whilst there may be some knock-on benefits from learninga foreign language, wouldn't it be more sensible, if that's the idea, to actually teach te grammar and syntax of English ina more formal and structured manner?

If the teaching is to be conversational, with little focus on the formal construction of the foreign language, then I can't see there being a big gain in the English side of things.

I've got a smattering of Japanese and Italian - both self taught - and both learnt when I had an interest / need for them in adult life.

I feel that language is a separate issue to learning things like the basics, as it's more of an emotional thing (can be discussed later) and feel that this is way overdue. Kids all over Europe learn languages at an early age and cope without question.

Following the Chomskian school of thought, children have an innate facility to speak several languages and if the pathway in the brain is not 'trodden' by the age of 12 or so, it closes down; the age at which most children are faced with this arduous task.


I agree with Ally and upinwath on this one. Languages open up a whole myriad options (friends, culture, food, travel etc) that enrich the tapestry of life.

I feel that language is a separate issue to learning things like the basics, as it's more of an emotional thing (can be discussed later) and feel that this is way overdue. Kids all over Europe learn languages at an early age and cope without question.

Following the Chomskian school of thought, children have an innate facility to speak several languages and if the pathway in the brain is not 'trodden' by the age of 12 or so, it closes down; the age at which most children are faced with this arduous task.


I agree with Ally and upinwath on this one. Languages open up a whole myriad options (friends, culture, food, travel etc) that enrich the tapestry of life.


I agree Lizmobile. It is vitally important that kids start learning languages at an early age. After the age of about 12 (some say earlier) it becomes an uphill struggle. For adults, it is often a forlorn hope. English may be the international language, but many others are increasingly useful also.

Maybe kids should be taught latin or something more fundamental whereby future European languages can be picked up more easily.

I don't recall learning English grammars in my regular English lessons. So it was not like I knew the structures. I just recall a lot of comprehension exercises.

I think for any kids to have a better chance at picking up the good basics, or a foreign language at a young age means a good syllabus to begin with. Teaching them the skill along with application. In this country, the kids do not get homework. Why?? Whereas other countries, the kids receive homework to judge whether they have started to pick up the skills that they were taught.

Talking of languages, there's a guide which was in last weekend's Independent. I bought a copy to read. I am quite amazed at one of the phrase mentioned in that book. Which is that the grammar and the structure of the language varies across the country. So, how do we expect kids to have a good grasp of the "standard English" when regional differences are still being used today? A lot of kids are also not taught such regional differences either.

There is an issue of which language pupils might learn. For non-English speaking countries it's a bit of no brainer: English. For us, it's not quite so clear. I'd start them on Spanish: a relatively straightforward language and spoken in a country which many kids visit. French probably needs to be phased out.

I've got a smattering of Japanese and Italian - both self taught - and both learnt when I had an interest / need for them in adult life.

But a 'smattering' is all that most adults ever acquire, or indeed are capable of acquiring. They are unlikely to ever gain a deep and broad knowledge of the language unless they go and live in the country where the language is spoken. I suspect that most adult language classes are useless at ab initio level and not much better at more advanced levels. The truth is that learning a language in adulthood is incredibly hard. Most people who try, however, earnestly, fail. The drop out rates on adult language classes are probably very high for this principal reason.

The human brain has an amazing capacity to learn several languages simultaneously (not least complex grammatical structures) at a very early age, a capacity which is however soon lost. I think it is woefully irresponsible of our educators to ignore this window of opportunity. If I were Education Minister, I would make it compulsory for kids to learn two foreign languages from the age of around five. If they wanted to drop them later, then so be it, but the opportunity to learn foreign languages easily, perhaps as nature intended, is fleeting.

Latin would have been more use than anything else to me, I think.

LordChaverley, if we were already educating children to a fair level of competency in the basics, I wouldn't have a rpoblem. I'm concerned that when you start shoe-horning something else in, something has to give.

I think that teaching kids a foreign language such as Chinese will actually alter the way their brain function as well. Since you are learning the language by rote, and not by logic. It is that type of language whereby a child's memory is used often. Consideration needs to be taken into which language to teach from an educational psychology's point of view.

I remember learning different foreign languages in my middle school which was very interesting. Just basic numbers, how to say "hello", and all the rest. What I find frustrating, and I never understood is what was the point of it. Since I never got to use it really.

I understand the point which Upinwath made about people in other countries being able to speak several different languages as a good thing. The majority of people that I have come across who were brought up in a multi-language environment were not able to actually progress the language further than what is being used within their own environment only.

As a bilingual myself, even I don't get to use my Cantonese skills that often and I know it will be lost. If you don't use it, you lose it. Sometimes it does make you think, and kids today will realise, what is the point of learning something which they don't find useful?

neurologically speaking, children who are exposed to lots of different languages BEFORE THE AGE OF 6 MONTHS are actually substantially more able to pick up languages, as they don't lose the ability to recognise phonemes that we don't use in english. it really is a case of use it or lose it. for this reason babybabychickens is regularly spoken to in french and german, occasionally she gets my embarrassing smattering of italian, and regularly gets portuguese, korean and japanese. she sometimes also gets english, and on some rare occasions she is also exposed to hullnch.

neurologically speaking, children who are exposed to lots of different languages BEFORE THE AGE OF 6 MONTHS are actually substantially more able to pick up languages, as they don't lose the ability to recognise phonemes that we don't use in english. it really is a case of use it or lose it. for this reason babybabychickens is regularly spoken to in french and german, occasionally she gets my embarrassing smattering of italian, and regularly gets portuguese, korean and japanese. she sometimes also gets english, and on some rare occasions she is also exposed to hullnch.

What about SF speak baby, such as LOL, PMSL, 'You are a little troll', or 'take your babble to teh chatroom please' ? :thumbsup:

I would be in favour of as many languages being introduced as early as possible! I'm amazed by my little niece who as 20 months seems just as happy understanding (well as well as a 20 month old child is going to!) English and Spanish thanks to having been spoken to in both languages since birth!

What about SF speak baby, such as LOL, PMSL, 'You are a little troll', or 'take your babble to teh chatroom please' ? :thumbsup:

my daughter will be far to intelligent to speak like a pleb.



(no-one is allowed to cite me using 'pmsl' or anything, else i shall slap their peasy beatch ass dahn).

I would be in favour of as many languages being introduced as early as possible! I'm amazed by my little niece who as 20 months seems just as happy understanding (well as well as a 20 month old child is going to!) English and Spanish thanks to having been spoken to in both languages since birth!
Wouldn't introducing so many different languages to a child will hinder their own learning ability with the mother from a young age?

When children have two or more languages from birth, it is all they have ever known. My son at nearly 5, LOVES knowing French words and constantly asks me how you say such and such in French. He also knows when people are speaking French and when they are speaking an 'other' language.

I've heard children speak English, French and the Malaysian language all in the same sentence, then sort it all out perfectly for themselves at 5-7 yrs old. there are bilingual children at the Kindergarten my children attend, and it's just fascinating watching and listening to them hop between the two langauges with absolutley no problem whatsoever.

Would also like to echo what Ousetunes said about learning more about our own language once learning another had been undertaken. Very true indeed.

Bago, I'd safely say no to your question. When it's all they've ever known, they integrate it without question, it never becomes an 'issue' and this is where the emotional aspect enters the debate. It's really really difficult to explain, but they way parents and children communicate is as much about emotion as it is about actual words. Hmm, not doing very well am I?

LordC; help!

Wouldn't introducing so many different languages to a child will hinder their own learning ability with the mother from a young age?

Doesn't seem to have done in this case! I'm constantly surprised that she can understand English and Spanish and seems to have no problem switching between the two of them (though when speaking she does string together both English and Spanish words!)

EDN, she will sort them all out eventually, in much the same way as she will learn which shapes go into which holes in the shape-sorter she got for Christmas :D

I would have thought that the results for sats tests say enough, many children in state schools are unable to reach the required level in English, Maths and science subjects, now who is to blame is a different subject, but at present if our schools are unable to teach the basics then we should not be teaching other subjects that, for the majority, will have no bearing on their future.

LordC; help!

You are doing an excellent job of explaining this yourself lizz, without any help from me. :thumbsup:

I would explain it by reference to two types of grammar which children learn at a very early age, linguistic grammar and emotional grammar. These are probably very closely inter-twined and both involve both verbal and non-verbal forms of communication. If they don't acquire these at a very early age, its much more difficult for them to acquire them later.

I've heard children speak English, French and the Malaysian language all in the same sentence, then sort it all out perfectly for themselves at 5-7 yrs old. there are bilingual children at the Kindergarten my children attend, and it's just fascinating watching and listening to them hop between the two langauges with absolutley no problem whatsoever.
Even I speak two languages in one sentence, and have done so for a very long time. To me, that's not good enough, but yet, I know my vocabulary is somewhat limited. It becomes a question of "what words should I use in order to get the other person to understand myself better". It's quite frustrating to say the least. A lot of adults are actually like that in real life, and the language itself has been progressed back in time. Cities like HK are full of degree-educated adults who may not be able to write fluently and to an advanced-level in Cantonese even.

I know I used to get irate at people correcting the standard of English to strangers, but there is a point behind their action. Which is that, the higher number of people diluting the language itself, the higher chance of changing the language altogether. It is partly globalisation at work.

Bago, I'd safely say no to your question. When it's all they've ever known, they integrate it without question, it never becomes an 'issue' and this is where the emotional aspect enters the debate. It's really really difficult to explain, but they way parents and children communicate is as much about emotion as it is about actual words. Hmm, not doing very well am I?
I do understand the point you're trying to make. i.e. The child also looks for facial expressions and body languages.

I was a little bit curious as to how children learn languages. As I know my nephew is trying hard to be a bilingual, and I myself was pushed to be bilingual as well. Much to my dislike.

My experience - at secondary level - is that several pupils don't know what a noun is - essential knowledge when studying German as nouns begin with a capital letter. Have also seen pupils looking for parts of verbs in the vocabulary lists!
I heard this morning that those teaching the primary pupils may be non-specialists undergoing a WEEK of training!

I heard this morning that those teaching the primary pupils may be non-specialists undergoing a WEEK of training!

Mon Dieu! :o

When the schools can teach children to an acceptable level in English, maths and, to a certain degree, the sciences, then they should consider 2nd languages, but until that happens schools should concentrate on the basics.

My experience - at secondary level - is that several pupils don't know what a noun is - essential knowledge when studying German as nouns begin with a capital letter. Have also seen pupils looking for parts of verbs in the vocabulary lists!
I heard this morning that those teaching the primary pupils may be non-specialists undergoing a WEEK of training!

I didn't even want to consider this part of the equation - this would seem to be the worst approach of all.

If you were going to do this with specialist language teachers, it would have stood a better chance. This seems to be something of a half-arsed job. :(

If you were going to do this with specialist language teachers, it would have stood a better chance. This seems to be something of a half-arsed job. :(

Agreed!.......

I was formally taught grammar as part of my English lessons - I think that English being such an irregular language means that whilst there may be some knock-on benefits from learning a foreign language, wouldn't it be more sensible, if that's the idea, to actually teach the grammar and syntax of English in a more formal and structured manner?


English grammar is deceptive. There are comparatively few rules, and these rules are simple and easy to learn. (It then takes the non-native speaker several decades to familiarise themselves with the countless exceptions and special circumstances.) In English-speaking countries, teaching grammar tends to happen when the first foreign language is introduced and we learn about case- and gender-specific construction. This is a golden opportunity generally missed by the various "French is Fun"-lessons my daughter had at junior school, so I suspect that language teaching in KS1 and KS2 is probably better not done at all than done as badly as I have seen it done.

I didn't even want to consider this part of the equation - this would seem to be the worst approach of all.

If you were going to do this with specialist language teachers, it would have stood a better chance. This seems to be something of a half-arsed job. :(

You've got to start somewhere. Once it is introduced, universties will introduce languages into their Primary with Qualified Teacher Status courses; it would take a long time before all primary teachers were suitably trained.

The advantage with learning Italian, French or German say over learning an oriental language is that the character set is the same, the grammatical constructs are similar and the roots of many words are the same.

A lot of this thread is bemoaning the way English is/has been taught, and quite rightly. I feel as though I was being schooled to have a career as a novelist, whereas the focus should have been on making oneself understood precisely, concisely and accurately.

I think that teaching kids a foreign language such as Chinese will actually alter the way their brain function as well. Since you are learning the language by rote, and not by logic. It is that type of language whereby a child's memory is used often. Consideration needs to be taken into which language to teach from an educational psychology's point of view.

I remember learning different foreign languages in my middle school which was very interesting. Just basic numbers, how to say "hello", and all the rest. What I find frustrating, and I never understood is what was the point of it. Since I never got to use it really.

I understand the point which Upinwath made about people in other countries being able to speak several different languages as a good thing. The majority of people that I have come across who were brought up in a multi-language environment were not able to actually progress the language further than what is being used within their own environment only.

As a bilingual myself, even I don't get to use my Cantonese skills that often and I know it will be lost. If you don't use it, you lose it. Sometimes it does make you think, and kids today will realise, what is the point of learning something which they don't find useful?

I have two children that are aged 10 and 7. The 10 year old is a polyglot who is advancing very well to her 4th language. She also has a desire to acquire a Chinese dialect which she will start on at the age of 12. The 7 year old has not quite advanced to the level of polyglot but is working very well with her third language. It is normal for children to be educated in a language that is not their mother tongue outside of the UK

Woah! So where are you based Deano, and which languages does your daughter speak? That's fabulous!

English grammar is deceptive. There are comparatively few rules, and these rules are simple and easy to learn. (It then takes the non-native speaker several decades to familiarise themselves with the countless exceptions and special circumstances.) In English-speaking countries, teaching grammar tends to happen when the first foreign language is introduced and we learn about case- and gender-specific construction. This is a golden opportunity generally missed by the various "French is Fun"-lessons my daughter had at junior school, so I suspect that language teaching in KS1 and KS2 is probably better not done at all than done as badly as I have seen it done.
English grammar is indeed deceptive. It is actually quite hard to learn. Things like tenses just throws me off totally.

Learning so many languages may mean that you're unable to 'think' in a certain way, but find yourself speaking in a mishmash of ways, which is not strong in either language. I have an Australian Malaysian friend who is very frustrated at getting herself heard at work. Due to how she talks. I pointed out the fact that she is mixing her Cantonese language skill with English. She always end up using the term "is it" to denote the sentence to be a question. (Which is valid in chinese grammar. I never knew this until I looked it up one time as well.) Yet, in English, we tend to use words at the beginning like; why, what, when, where.

Read this and weep. :hihi:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv210.shtml

This is precisely what I mean. This type of syntax and foundation was never taught to a good standard anyway. Even in real life application, users do not follow the exact method. So it is no wonder that the language itself is diluted somewhat. Since what we are taught will not be used in the right way socially. Personally speaking, I learnt a lot more about the logic of the English language by doing a computing course which taught the logic behind any language itself.

Woah! So where are you based Deano, and which languages does your daughter speak? That's fabulous!

We are now based in Poland previously Spain.

10 year old.
Laguages: Polish ( mother tongue) English,Spanish and French as work in progress.

7 year old
Laguages: Polish ( mother tongue) English, Spanish.

The important period for language acquisition in children is up to 6 years old.
My wife is a Simultaneous translator and has been responsible for the language development of our children. The beautiful thing for our children is that they always have a secret code of communication, as they very rarely meet children that have the same language abilities. Therefore there is an incentive to develop their skills.

I was also intrigued as well as to what languages they picked up. Cos I've come to learn that Latin is the basis of many European languages. Learning a different "Writing System" will definitely throw the kid off the track. (I learnt a lot on languages by this great website. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/definition.htm)

I cannot see many English teachers in the UK being a true linguist, and teaching it from a perspective that shows the differences in languages. Yet, if we do that, maybe we would be further away from the literature side of the language.

Saying this, it is all well and true to be multilingual, but I personally find that it is also as important to be holding onto some sort of cultural values too to define one's identity.

I was so happy the other day in talking to my granma in a chinese dialect which I did not know that I was a part of. I only knew the difference in our dialect when my cousin's bf tried to talk to my granma but failed miserably in understanding what she was saying. I always thought that my granma was an uneducated lady from her generation, who spoke with slangs. However, listening to her speak and learning more about languages, she actually is speaking a dialect which I think will be non-existent in the next generation of our family! >.< ! Roots like this can so easily be lost as well when learning new things and we forever more become globe trotters.

My wife is a Simultaneous translator

Nobody on earth has more respect from me than people who do this. Thank you for sharing that, your children are truly blessed.

That secret communication; yes... it's very handy. I use it a lot with a friend of mine with whom I lived in France. Am sure we'll get socked in the chops one day though! LOL!

Read this and weep. :hihi:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv210.shtml

This is precisely what I mean. This type of syntax and foundation was never taught to a good standard anyway. Even in real life application, users do not follow the exact method. So it is no wonder that the language itself is diluted somewhat. Since what we are taught will not be used in the right way socially. Personally speaking, I learnt a lot more about the logic of the English language by doing a computing course which taught the logic behind any language itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect shows that the idea is common across European languages. The interesting point is that we never learn why we say it in English, we just do because it is what we are brought up to say. It is only when we learn another language that uses the same grammatical constructs that we gain understanding of how our own language works.

That secret communication; yes... it's very handy. I use it a lot with a friend of mine with whom I lived in France. Am sure we'll get socked in the chops one day though! LOL!

I once had a German girlfriend and we communicated in French. The one place where no-one would have understood us, is France probably.

Saying this, it is all well and true to be multilingual, but I personally find that it is also as important to be holding onto some sort of cultural values too to define one's identity.

My children understand that when they are in Poland they are Polish and when they are in the UK they are British. I believe it could be different for children of African, Asian or Sino roots.

As a languages graduand I find it terrible that kids aren't already being taught languages at what is the prime time of their life to pick them up.

They'll never be as adept at picking up a foreign language again than in primary school. I would chose them to learn French, say, over history any day. When does using History have any bearing on a future career?!I think it's important that some History gets taught. Other than that I agree with you. Primary school is the perfect time to learn the basics of a new language.

For continuity's sake, there would have to be collaboration between primary and secondary schools, so kids don't learn a language at primary school only to find it's not on offer at the secondary school they go to.

If I were Education Minister, I would make it compulsory for kids to learn two foreign languages from the age of around five. If they wanted to drop them later, then so be it, but the opportunity to learn foreign languages easily, perhaps as nature intended, is fleeting.

You'd get my vote. Even if the kids quit languages at 11 the mental foundations for picking up languages will have been laid, and will make re-learning French, Spanish, German and Italian much simpler.

I'd try to raise the bar even higher and try and get kids to be fully bilingual by the time they finish school

..knowing two languages is much more than simply knowing two ways of speaking....it seems evident that the mind of a speaker who has in some way attached two sets of linguistic details to a conceptual representation, whether in a unified or discretely arranged system, has entertained possibilities that the monolingual speaker has had no need to entertain. The enriching aspect of bilingualism may follow directly from its most maddening complication: it is precisely because the structures and concepts of different languages never coincide that the experience of learning a second language is so spectacular in its effects. http://www.psych.yorku.ca/ellenb/

My children understand that when they are in Poland they are Polish and when they are in the UK they are British. I believe it could be different for children of African, Asian or Sino roots.
Well, I was not taught this closely on languagesby my parents, but more of a case of being let to decide for myself. Many globe-trotters are this way too. Though, I think my own saving grace is being with families who reinforces my own identity. Since we do have family ties and links going back a few generation in the same place in HK as well. Even my own grand-dad came to the UK to work, but wanted to die in HK.

Language is one of those things which defines a person. Whether it's accents, dialects.. it is widely accepted as such.

Just noted that I keep trying to explain to people exactly what Ellen Bialystok said. You can't hear my applause ...

Well, I was not taught this closely on languagesby my parents, but more of a case of being let to decide for myself. Many globe-trotters are this way too. Though, I think my own saving grace is being with families who reinforces my own identity. Since we do have family ties and links going back a few generation in the same place in HK as well. Even my own grand-dad came to the UK to work, but wanted to die in HK.

Language is one of those things which defines a person. Whether it's accents, dialects.. it is widely accepted as such.


Having visited Kowloon/Hong Kong many times over the last 15 years, I have a great respect for the Hong Kong Chinese they are very industrious people. They are respectful of their elders and hold deep family values. Maybe this is something that should be considered for the curriculum in schools in the UK.

They are respectful of their elders and hold deep family values. Maybe this is something that should be considered for the curriculum in schools in the UK.

We were talking about this just the other day. It is soooo true! It would change the whole face of our poxy little self-obsessed, shallow, materialistic society :rant: over :blush:

Just noted that I keep trying to explain to people exactly what Ellen Bialystok said. You can't hear my applause ...
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* :hihi: :D

Did you mean that learning a foreign language actually expand your mind and therefore makes you think more laterally ?

I agree. Though sometimes I think too laterally that I'm indecisive. lol...!
I suppose otherwise I wouldn't be learning prog languages as well too.

Having visited Kowloon/Hong Kong many times over the last 15 years, I have a great respect for the Hong Kong Chinese they are very industrious people. They are respectful of their elders and hold deep family values. Maybe this is something that should be considered for the curriculum in schools in the UK.
They're industrious because it's a survival instinct.

Well, it depends on which angle you look at. Did you fail to know or realise the high crime rate before 1997 ? Triad activities, and shootings happening in jewellry stores in Mong Kok every couple of months? People drugging others via injecting sleeping tablets through packet drinks? (Similar to date rape drugs.) Social housing still make-up a large part of housing in HK too. There are still a lot of inner-city crimes which does not necessary make the headlines.

It does not matter what you teach to a kid, when the kid knows realistically and in real life, they may not have a great future even if they learn it well. I just remember that my foreign language teacher mentioned that I could work abroad, but when I have never decided that as a career option, then what does it really matter? In Europe, many countries need to learn English in order to work abroad, but I don't see many global workers from the UK really.

I'd try to raise the bar even higher and try and get kids to be fully bilingual by the time they finish school

I have every respect for true polyglots, but in my experience, they are a rare breed. There is a vast difference between the ability to communicate fluently on the one hand, and true awareness of the possibilities and shades of meaning offered by a language on the other. Much is, indeed, lost in translation, because the "culture gap" that exists beween people who have grown up with the language and its culture and those who have acquired it from "outside" can be vast - despite apparent fluency. This gap grows exponentially with the number of languages. I think we need to be realistic about what can be achieved (even by skilled and qualified specialist language teachers) - fully bilingual school leavers are likely to be the product of their homes rather than of their schools.

The human brain has an amazing capacity to learn several languages simultaneously (not least complex grammatical structures) at a very early age, a capacity which is however soon lost. I think it is woefully irresponsible of our educators to ignore this window of opportunity. If I were Education Minister, I would make it compulsory for kids to learn two foreign languages from the age of around five. If they wanted to drop them later, then so be it, but the opportunity to learn foreign languages easily, perhaps as nature intended, is fleeting.


I totally agree with you in principle. The failure to teach our children languages other than our own, over many decades, is a sad indictment on our so called educational system. The 'Little Britain' mentality has left us trailing behind, not only our European counterparts, but also the rest of the world. My concerns for this belated, but much necessary policy change, is that for many, it's too little, too late. We are faced with an educational system that undermines, under pays a under values Teachers, whilst at the same time, gives feckless parents and wayward pupils the upper hand. Not so long ago, children entered the educational establishment at the age of five, able to socialise and string a sentence together. Today, Teacher's are faced with five year olds, some still in nappies, barely able to grunt and mal -adjusted to say the least. Until the fundamentals are addressed, and possibly, selection via ability is reinstated, I can't see this as being anything other that an abject failure, target wise.

Did you mean that learning a foreign language actually expand your mind and therefore makes you think more laterally ?
It would give you access to the literature of a whole new collection of countries. That must count for something.

I have every respect for true polyglots, but in my experience, they are a rare breed.- fully bilingual school leavers are likely to be the product of their homes rather than of their schools.

You are correct, according to the head of the department of Linguistics there are less than 10 polyglots under the age of 12 years old in this country of 46,000,000 people.
Secondly, only a child that is born to parents from two countries (languages) will ever be considered truly bilingual. A child that learns a second language at school will only ever be acquiring a second language at best and cannot be considered bilingual.

I know that my old maths teacher in Wath is still at the same school and she was rubbish as a teacher as well as hated by pupils and staff alike.

erm, was this teacher about 4ft tall, pretty handy with her index finger (not in that way) and had ginger hair??

They're industrious because it's a survival instinct.

It does not matter what you teach to a kid, when the kid knows realistically and in real life, they may not have a great future even if they learn it well. In Europe, many countries need to learn English in order to work abroad, but I don't see many global workers from the UK really.



I believe it is very important for the kids to believe there is always a way out. In mainland Europe many students need to speak English in order to get a job, especially if they are going into the areas of Business, Science or High tech. Regarding global workers from the UK you would be surprised at the number of British expats living and working around the world. I think we even out number the Americans these days

Well I'm a teacher, I've just undergone a nightclass to teach French and I must admit i am nervous about it but it's like anything, you learn most of it if truth be told, the week before the children. Primary school teachers have to be jack of all trades and masters of none. At the moment my class are having lessons with the French specialist and so we spend a few minutes where they test me and i test them informally every few days. They love the fact their teacher is learning French at the same level as they are. I'll be expected to teach my next class. They love french, it helps them grasp an understanding of the importance of grammar and intonation in their voices. It's about forming an understanding of another culture, language and the importance of spelling although this is not the major issue at primary school.

Well I'm a teacher, I've just undergone a nightclass to teach French and I must admit i am nervous about it but it's like anything, you learn most of it if truth be told, the week before the children. Primary school teachers have to be jack of all trades and masters of none. At the moment my class are having lessons with the French specialist and so we spend a few minutes where they test me and i test them informally every few days. They love the fact their teacher is learning French at the same level as they are. I'll be expected to teach my next class. They love french, it helps them grasp an understanding of the importance of grammar and intonation in their voices. It's about forming an understanding of another culture, language and the importance of spelling although this is not the major issue at primary school.

Here is an interesting link: http://iteslj.org/Articles/Rosenberg-Bilingual.html

I believe it is very important for the kids to believe there is always a way out. In mainland Europe many students need to speak English in order to get a job, especially if they are going into the areas of Business, Science or High tech. Regarding global workers from the UK you would be surprised at the number of British expats living and working around the world. I think we even out number the Americans these days
It is very important to let the kids know what their options are and be able to survive in this world. This is true. However, not many people know what their options are in life. Nor are they given any options.

I think British kids are lucky because they are part of the EU, and can actually work abroad in Europe if they so wish to. So there is definitely an incentive to learn an European language. I don't think that for many other kids abroad, that the opportunities will be the same.

There is definitely a good few expats who work abroad because they may be the only ones who can teach others the skill or something. However, not many do take the opportunities to work abroad. Since the cultural values and ettiquettes are so different and integrating and trying to work alongside others are sometimes quite frustrating.

It is very important to let the kids know what their options are and be able to survive in this world. This is true. However, not many people know what their options are in life. Nor are they given any options.

I think British kids are lucky because they are part of the EU, and can actually work abroad in Europe if they so wish to. So there is definitely an incentive to learn an European language. I don't think that for many other kids abroad, that the opportunities will be the same.

There is definitely a good few expats who work abroad because they may be the only ones who can teach others the skill or something. However, not many do take the opportunities to work abroad. Since the cultural values and ettiquettes are so different and integrating and trying to work alongside others are sometimes quite frustrating.

When it comes to language acquisition there are countries that do not consider it a priority. Acquiring a second language for a child should not fall solely on the educational system. I am of the opinion that parents of young children need to be educated into the benefits of their child/children acquiring a second language. If a child is to fully acquire a second language the parent should treat it in the same way as taking their child to football, self defense, ballet or music lessons and realize that they have to be both passively and financially involved.

Bago, there is not a few expats that work abroad the British are the leaders without question. Although I will agree with you that when it comes to integration we are at the bottom of the league.

I think it's very important for kids in the rest of Europe to learn English from an early age. I live in France and give initiation lessons to 5-6 years old through games, songs... When they're 18, they will not be able to get a job without that language skill so it's best to start young. However, English kids are lucky because their language is already used throughout the world. This should not stop them from learning another one, such as mandarin (China is big!). It's not only about communication but also about understanding another culture, different points of views , so languages develop your knowledge and create tolerance.

Here is an interesting link: http://iteslj.org/Articles/Rosenberg-Bilingual.html

Thanks for that. I know a child whose parent speaks to her in a foreign language who has difficulties with phonics. Very interesting:)

Several things conspire to make us probably the worst nation in the world for speaking more than one language fluently.

We speak English so can get by almost anywhere

Our parents rarely know, and almost certainly never use, a second language

Languages are taught very poorly indeed; the traditional UK method is to make learning a language a matter of conscious memory. Those with a good memory get by, those without haven't a hope. And most teachers are not particularly fluent in the language they are teaching.

The best way to learn a second language is to live abroad, even if only for a very short time. Three months in France as a 13 year old turned me from someone who had a grasp of a few basic phrases into a pretty fluent French speaker, able to think directly in French rather than having to silently translate as I went along. At least when you are in France, the French expect you to speak their language, rather than wanting to show off their English. Adults who live abroad seem to have the same ability to acquire the local language unless they consciously choose not to.

There was a documentary on TV a few years ago about a Frenchman who was able to teach languages very quickly; he was given two weeks with a class of volunteer schoolchildren all of whom had been 'failures' using traditional teaching methods. Within a fortnight all the group were speaking French quite comfortably, to a standard that was better than those who had learnt the language within the school's normal setting.
He was of the view that failure to learn a language was the fault of the teacher, never of the pupil.
I wish I could remember his name; he specialised in teaching languages on a one-to-one basis (not just French either) where people had a need to learn a language quickly, such as an actor who decides to appear in some arty foreign film. He could have someone comfortable with a second language within 3 days. It was an extraordinary documentary; does anyone else remember it?

It would give you access to the literature of a whole new collection of countries. That must count for something.
Not to mention a whole new bunch of potential friends, food and experiences.

Yes, Bago, I think that is what I mean. Also when one language has been learned, others seem far easier as the 'path' in the brain has already been trodden, so to speak.