i have decided to start this thread to clear a few things up about witchcraft as there are obviously alot of people out there who still think it is connected to satanaism??? for one thing satan is entirly a christian concept and witches dont believe in christ so how can the two be connected:loopy: . also i have yet to meet a witch who has not only done good for othr people. having been in this faith for many years i have only encounted good in it. there are minorities out there who like to think that they are witches by doing bad things but they do not belong to wicca at all. it is all nature based and dare i say that christianity also orriginated from paganism. this thread is not designed to offend anyone but merely to put things right

Satanism comes from a blending of religions and has been made up of the worst aspects of all pagan and christian beliefs. Unfortunately the christians have been powerful for a long time and they invented the myth of satanism before the cult actually came into existance this is why people automatically link paganism to satanism and don't see the christian input.
Most people are now educated enough to see the difference between the belief systems and in america paganism is the second largest religion (according to a programm I watched on 4 last night)

what i am referring to is that the christians nicked pan{the lord of the forest } n swapped him to satan as you will see the is a striking resemblence between the two,dont know why we cant live peacefully regardless of beleifs x x

Witchcraft and Satan not connected? Well you would say that wouldn't you? I can't imagine someone comming on the forum and coming clean about being involved in satanism can you?

They didn't just take Pan or which ever of his many names you want to use, they took religious dates and sites of worship too, but both religions have altered astronomically since those days and in general I think they now do coincide peacefully.
Now however a cult has arrisen that is known as satanism and that is the cause of todays problems with paganism.
The two get confused as many of the practices seem similar to the untrained eye.

what i am referring to is that the christians nicked pan{the lord of the forest } n swapped him to satan as you will see the is a striking resemblence between the two

of course! why have i never seen this before....

poor pan, to be so misconstrued :gag:

Witchcraft and Satan not connected? Well you would say that wouldn't you? I can't imagine someone comming on the forum and coming clean about being involved in satanism can you?

mojo i sugest you read this if you think that we all co exist peacefully. its because of narrowminded views like this that world is in the mess its in...ken i can only put your comments down to blind ignorance of the faith therefore i shall forgive them...... blessings

lol soloman

mojo i sugest you read this if you think that we all co exist peacefully. its because of narrowminded views like this that world is in the mess its in...ken i can only put your comments down to blind ignorance of the faith therefore i shall forgive them...... blessings

I think he's just pushing your buttons, let it wash over.

shame isnt it how silly some people are, bet he is actually quite a nice guy

A very dry sense of humour from what I've read, although he could be a christian fundementalist and on his way round to burn us at the stake for our heretic ways :hihi:

mojo i sugest you read this if you think that we all co exist peacefully. its because of narrowminded views like this that world is in the mess its in...ken i can only put your comments down to blind ignorance of the faith therefore i shall forgive them...... blessings

I haven't expressed a view have I? I have simply stated that you wouldn't expect someone coming on the forum and telling us they were involved in satanism. I also don't think you can regard paganism as a faith can you?

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: sounds more like it:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

for your information ken paganism was around years before christianity and it was the sarcastic undertone in your first comment that made me reply.... my goddess do these people really exist or are you having a laugh. i suggest you look up paganism before you decide to connect it with satan.... silly man

for your information ken paganism was around years before christianity and it was the sarcastic undertone in your first comment that made me reply.... my goddess do these people really exist or are you having a laugh. i suggest you look up paganism before you decide to connect it with satan.... silly man

I haven't connected satanism with paganism have I? You need to read what I have written more carefully as you have it completely wrong.

I don't see how paganism can be a faith regardless of how long it has been around. You might argue that it is a religion but that doesn't make it a faith does it? What do you have faith in? Personally I think it is mumbo jumbo, but provided it is harmless mumbo jumbo then I can't see it does any harm.

is the grass you walk on mumbojumbo..... or the rivers and sees.??? it is all nature my freind and nature is very powerful. we just harness that energy and use it to do good. it sure beats beleiving that woman was made from a spare rib..... and by the way jesus liked mushrooms lol

I agree with you Ruth it does get abit tiresom that some people insist on saying that Witchcraft and Satanism are the same thing. No it isnt at all I do not beleive in Satan , how can i possibly beleive in something that was made up?
When i do any spells or Blessings i dont have to make a pact with the devil or sell my soul to him or what ever else people would think, i call up the energies of the universe ( earth,air,fire,water) and which ever deity i think best for the job.
i light candles and incense ( as do churches) i dont chop heads off chickens or drink pigs blood.. we tend to prefere cakes and wine :D

but the narrow minded and indeed the mislead will always be here to try and tell us what they beleive to be the truth.

Mind you i have only once been called a devil worshipper and that was when i first moved into a street i used to live on, after a week or so one of the neighbours said ive got to tell you what everyone is saying ... they are calling you a devil worshipper. I thought this highly amusing and made some twig pentacles to hang in my window, and put a cauldron with some flowers on my Patio. :hihi:

is the grass you walk on mumbojumbo..... or the rivers and sees.??? it is all nature my freind and nature is very powerful. we just harness that energy and use it to do good. it sure beats beleiving that woman was made from a spare rib..... and by the way jesus liked mushrooms lol

Yes, but I think christianity is mumbo jumbo but the chuch has a role in society as well. The CofE does great work in the community and with vunerable people. When it comes to alternative religions then they sometimes prey on vunerable people and it can be very harmful. Not that I am suggesting you have anything to do with that kind of thing, I am just generalising about how organised religions can often do far greater good.

Post deleted as I couldnt explain what i wanted to say .

good on you litha, i too am classed as a devil worshipper by the local god squad, that is until they want some potion or other, same as the jovo witness...... toy with them then destroy them lol, and ken paganism is not alternative but the first faith x

organised religions also do quite alot of harm, just how many times have we heard of the preists messing with children. They seem to think they can hide behind their dog collars and are imune from the law :suspect:

Yes, but I think christianity is mumbo jumbo but the chuch has a role in society as well. The CofE does great work in the community and with vunerable people. When it comes to alternative religions then they sometimes prey on vunerable people and it can be very harmful. Not that I am suggesting you have anything to do with that kind of thing, I am just generalising about how organised religions can often do far greater good.

I have had my experiences of so called pagans or wiccans preying on the vulnerable unfortunately and I have put myself at risk by stopping these people in there tracks. Like everything you go into in life you have to have your eyes wide open and make sure you tell somebody you really trust what you are doing and with who.

LOL litha you harm a chicken you havn't got it in you which is a good thing.

i agree with both mojo and litha comments.... preist are one of the worst offenders for abuse. you only have to look at the magdalene institutions.... mojo you are right that you have to keep your eyes wide open because unfortunatly there will always be people ready to take advantage of you no mattter what race or religion although i have to say i find it very rare in true witchcraft circles

Christianity, paganism, witchcraft, aliens, spirituality, all faiths, religions and fixed dogmas are all BS.

They're shortcuts to certainty and "truth" for the lazy/simple of mind.

I have had my experiences of so called pagans or wiccans preying on the vulnerable unfortunately and I have put myself at risk by stopping these people in there tracks. Like everything you go into in life you have to have your eyes wide open and make sure you tell somebody you really trust what you are doing and with who.

there are some really weird "so called pagans and wiccans" but you will get that in all things inlife. there is charlatons in everything. Real Pagans and Wiccans wouldnt dream of harming anyone, why would we it is against our beliefs. I have also come across these sort of people who pray on the vunerable and i to tried to make sure as many folk as possible knew the dangers of joining such morons.

When meeting new people it is ALWAYS a good idea to tell someone who you are meeting and where, this goes for everything just like it isnt common sense to meet someone off the internet whether or not you think you are in Love because you have emailed and spoke on msn for weeks.

But what about the fact that paganism, witchcraft, satanism etc etc are ALL effectively religions, whether you worship one god as the majority of the major religions do, or the fluff in Carol Voorderman's navel it is still a religion and therefore a crutch designed to control primitive people. Magic or miracles whatever you want to call them do not exist, never have done and never will do (unless Wednesday get back in the premiership, then I may be forced to re-evaluate my "beliefs")

The only true religion is the church of the flying spaghetti monster

http://www.venganza.org/

take it youre a non believer then lol

LOL litha you harm a chicken you havn't got it in you which is a good thing.

LOL LOL CV you are very right, no way i could harm a little furry something... some people are a different matter tho :hihi: :hihi:

Christianity, paganism, witchcraft, aliens, spirituality, all faiths, religions and fixed dogmas are all BS.

They're shortcuts to certainty and "truth" for the lazy/simple of mind.

hmmmmmm who is that strange bearded bloke under your name... he looks a bit like jesus:hihi:

Christianity, paganism, witchcraft, aliens, spirituality, all faiths, religions and fixed dogmas are all BS.

They're shortcuts to certainty and "truth" for the lazy/simple of mind.

You wouldn't believe how difficult it is having a faith, much easier to wander through life not really worrying about the consequences I would have thought.
There is no shortcut to certainty and truth but following guidelines to a wholesome and peaceful existance can be reward in itself.

following guidelines to a wholesome and peaceful existance can be reward in itself.

I can do peaceful but I think "wholesome" is pushing things too far.

ken you seem like a man under an enourmous amount of stress to me, pressure too

take it youre a non believer then lol

If you can prove to me that witchcraft is real, then I am totally willing to change my mind. Until then, I will remain touched by his noodly appendage!

Put a spell on me, curse me go on - prove it to me. We could set up a control experiment, you tell a third party what the spell is and when it will happen and then we can all see what ******** it is.

Religion is for the weak minded, whatever, whichever, forever.

it does not work that way... however i will be sending you blessings over the next few days and it would be interesting if you feel better for it... you will have to let me know

I think I probably have all this to come after finding a faith that makes sense to me. :) I have already had a few "stupid fairytale crap" comments, each to their own I say :) I'm happy with my beliefs so what's it got to do with other people?
:hihi: whenever I hear of Satan, I think of the South Park character :hihi:

Litha, I love the cauldren and twig thing, that's funny! you should have stuck broomsticks to the side of a motorbike, that would really have got them talking!

it does not work that way... however i will be sending you blessings over the next few days and it would be interesting if you feel better for it... you will have to let me know

Of course I will feel better - its the nearly weekend:hihi: So how does it work? Sending "blessings" sounds very similair to christians "praying" for somebody?

I hope no goats get injured in the process, but if they do I have an amazing recipe for curried goat mutton (well there is no point wasting it ...........)

PS I want to be transmogrified into a falcon if possible, it will save me a train fair over the weekend

If you can prove to me that witchcraft is real, then I am totally willing to change my mind. Until then, I will remain touched by his noodly appendage!

Put a spell on me, curse me go on - prove it to me. We could set up a control experiment, you tell a third party what the spell is and when it will happen and then we can all see what ******** it is.

Religion is for the weak minded, whatever, whichever, forever.

and that comment is from someone with little knowledge the religion in question :hihi: what do you expect us to do? turn you into a frog? :hihi:

You wouldn't believe how difficult it is having a faith, much easier to wander through life not really worrying about the consequences I would have thought.
There is no shortcut to certainty and truth but following guidelines to a wholesome and peaceful existance can be reward in itself.

You've got it entirely the wrong way round - it's the life mission of a decent unbeliever to seek the right way to live. For me it's based on compassion for sentient life and "do as to others". So it follows that I'm vegan, green and a good citizen etc...

Think for yourselves!

it does not work that way... however i will be sending you blessings over the next few days and it would be interesting if you feel better for it... you will have to let me know

Please send me some too! I used to read books on Magik spells but never got round to trying one out- they all took a few days to do and I had to wait for the right moon. Plus they were all 'nice' spells as nasty ones dont work, and it was nasty ones I was lookng for.

Please help me with a problem I have. Thanks

lol. it not at all like bloody praying. just let me know if you start to feel more upbeat and no they aint no goats involved

My collegue is dyslexic, she worships Santa.

Of course I will feel better - its the nearly weekend:hihi: So how does it work? Sending "blessings" sounds very similair to christians "praying" for somebody?


This does work. I don't know why it works and I doubt it has anything to do with a god, but if you pray for someone who is ill then they are more likely to get better. It seems likley in that case that "blessings" might have a beneficial effect.

Please send me some too! I used to read books on Magik spells but never got round to trying one out- they all took a few days to do and I had to wait for the right moon. Plus they were all 'nice' spells as nasty ones dont work, and it was nasty ones I was lookng for.

Please help me with a problem I have. Thanks

cannot, or should i say will not do anything to harm anything and judging by your message i think thats what you want.... sorry but you could always try a vicar lol

and that comment is from someone with little knowledge the religion in question :hihi: what do you expect us to do? turn you into a frog? :hihi:

Go on, its the only way I will believe it. Physics is the true religion

just let me know ok lol

I think I probably have all this to come after finding a faith that makes sense to me. :) I have already had a few "stupid fairytale crap" comments, each to their own I say :) I'm happy with my beliefs so what's it got to do with other people?
:hihi: whenever I hear of Satan, I think of the South Park character :hihi:

Litha, I love the cauldren and twig thing, that's funny! you should have stuck broomsticks to the side of a motorbike, that would really have got them talking!

HEEHEE where i lived they would have prob just pinched the motorbike and taken no notice of the brooms :hihi:
i have a broom outside my front door here and one at my back , and now with the kittens i have enough black cats to sit in every window in the house :love: :love:

Gribbet, gribbet - shouldn't have had onions on my sandwich at lunchtime. Will let you know if I get snogged by a prince on the way home or develop a sudden taste for flys. Talk to you all tomorrow, its home time (ummmm starting to feel more positive, my well being is increasing by the minute...........)

cannot, or should i say will not do anything to harm anything and judging by your message i think thats what you want.... sorry but you could always try a vicar lol

No, I want your help with a personal problem, I dont want somebody else harmed :)

I wonder how many SF members are Wiccan?

No, I want your help with a personal problem, I dont want somebody else harmed :)

pm me and i will se what i can do ok

dunno lindos they are alot of us about

I dont class myself as Wiccan, i just use Pagan. but i do know that there are deffinatly alot of Pagans and Wiccans in sheffield :D

I think as has already been said you can get charlatans and people just jumping on the band wagon.
When people tend to think of paganism they tend to link it to new age practices and there are loads of odd ball characters who will follow whatever the latest craze is.
I have a friend who was a priestess to the mother goddesss, then claimed to be a pagan and is now a buddhist with leanings towards the previous two. Not suprisingly this confuses me as an outsider,
I don't think the program last night did pagans any favors at all as it definitely seemed to be saying there was a dark side to things even if most pagans didn't go down that route..

I think as has already been said you can get charlatans and people just jumping on the band wagon.
When people tend to think of paganism they tend to link it to new age practices and there are loads of odd ball characters who will follow whatever the latest craze is.
I have a friend who was a priestess to the mother goddesss, then claimed to be a pagan and is now a buddhist with leanings towards the previous two. Not suprisingly this confuses me as an outsider,
I don't think the program last night did pagans any favors at all as it definitely seemed to be saying there was a dark side to things even if most pagans didn't go down that route..


What programme is it people are talking about?

Ruth, the problem is, idiots like the one ranting on the thread below (post 63,page 4 onwards) gives witches a bad name.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33641&highlight=wicca

I am in truth agnostic I dont believe in the bible as a whole but I do believe in some things Like nature and respect for living things. So I suppose that in itself classes itself as wicca.

Am i right or way off the mark litha I mean I dont do spells but I have had some weird things happen to me in the past which I wouldnt mind having a pm with you litha or if you comin to the next sawag thingy.

aint they some stupid people

PM me all you want CV , and yes ill be more than happy to have a natter with about stuff and things at the next meet.

what you have just described doesnt make you a Wiccan ( but well on the way if you would like to learn more about it :thumbsup: )

You've got it entirely the wrong way round - it's the life mission of a decent unbeliever to seek the right way to live. For me it's based on compassion for sentient life and "do as to others". So it follows that I'm vegan, green and a good citizen etc...

Think for yourselves!

I will now that you have told me to.

I will now that you have told me to.

1 down 5 billion to go...:rolleyes:

I do think for myself.
I think about how my actions affect others around me.
I think about how I can make a difference to the world as a whole.
I think about the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars.
I think about the harm that is caused to the world in the name of organised religion everyday.
I am a hedge witch and I am not a member of a religios group so my beliefs are my own and I repeat I do think for myself.

i have decided to start this thread to clear a few things up about witchcraft as there are obviously alot of people out there who still think it is connected to satanaism??? for one thing satan is entirly a christian concept and witches dont believe in christ so how can the two be connected:loopy: . also i have yet to meet a witch who has not only done good for othr people. having been in this faith for many years i have only encounted good in it. there are minorities out there who like to think that they are witches by doing bad things but they do not belong to wicca at all. it is all nature based and dare i say that christianity also orriginated from paganism. this thread is not designed to offend anyone but merely to put things right

Sorry love. Christianity came from Jesus Christ although Christianity did welcome pagans and adopted some of their customs.

Wicca and witchcraft are not the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft

Christianity, paganism, witchcraft, aliens, spirituality, all faiths, religions and fixed dogmas are all BS.

They're shortcuts to certainty and "truth" for the lazy/simple of mind.

Sorry Norbert, you know I could never let you get away with anything like that, if you want lazy-of-mind I would like to suggest someone who is a "good green person". All they have to do is follow a few simple rules. Nothing wrong with that though mind you but it's hardly rocket science. :D

Witchcraft and Satan not connected? Well you would say that wouldn't you? I can't imagine someone comming on the forum and coming clean about being involved in satanism can you?
Why not, what's so objectionable about satanism?

You've got it entirely the wrong way round - it's the life mission of a decent unbeliever to seek the right way to live. For me it's based on compassion for sentient life and "do as to others". So it follows that I'm vegan, green and a good citizen etc...

Think for yourselves!

With those beliefs, you're practically a Pagan, Norbert!

Sorry love. Christianity came from Jesus Christ although Christianity did welcome pagans and adopted some of their customs.


Christians "welcomed" pagans?!! I think you've missed a few chapters in Christian history.

Christianity did come from pagan religions: It's easy to see that the story of Jesus Christ is just a later retelling of the pagan goddess-gives-birth-to-god-and-god-dies story that symbolizes the wheel of the year.

The Virgin Mary is definitely based on goddesses -- you only have to look at pictures of her standing on crescent moons to realize that.

With those beliefs, you're practically a Pagan, Norbert!

I think Robin Hood had it about right, he looked after the common man, he helped the poor, he protected women from harm, he took the sacrament, he lived close to nature, everything he ate and used was natural and recyclable, he was Green and some people link him to the "Green Man" who was a symbol of nature and fertility, he disliked authority, and he stood up for what he believed in.

Christians "welcomed" pagans?!! I think you've missed a few chapters in Christian history.

Christianity did come from pagan religions: It's easy to see that the story of Jesus Christ is just a later retelling of the pagan goddess-gives-birth-to-god-and-god-dies story that symbolizes the wheel of the year.

The Virgin Mary is definitely based on goddesses -- you only have to look at pictures of her standing on crescent moons to realize that.

What have you been drinking Happy? It must be good. :D

Sorry Norbert, you know I could never let you get away with anything like that, if you want lazy-of-mind I would like to suggest someone who is a "good green person". All they have to do is follow a few simple rules. Nothing wrong with that though mind you but it's hardly rocket science. :D

I'm sorry that my uncomplicated "rules" don't tell me specific stuff to do and think like - despising homosexuality, worshipping cows, not being able operate light switches on Saturday, sexually mutilating children, denying condoms to the overpopulated, animal slaughter without stunning, not accepting blood transfusions, not celebrating your children's birthdays, wearing special underwear, conquering the heathen races etc...

What have you been drinking Happy? It must be good. :D

That's always a good comeback when you don't have an intelligent response. :D

I really don't know what you are on about, either of you. Stuff and nonsense sums it up best. I was trying to be polite Happy, not to worry though, it just seems as though on this forum you have to be rude to make your point and I'm not stooping that low.

I really don't know what you are on about, either of you. Stuff and nonsense sums it up best. I was trying to be polite Happy, not to worry though, it just seems as though on this forum you have to be rude to make your point and I'm not stooping that low.

Let me get this straight. You were trying to be polite by, um, suggesting that my post was an alcohol-fueled ramble?? By calling my opinions "stuff and nonsense"? I didn't stoop that low -- you did. I don't think you're polite at all. You're just a closed-minded, bible-quoting zealot.

Let me get this straight. You were trying to be polite by, um, suggesting that my post was an alcohol-fueled ramble?? By calling my opinions "stuff and nonsense"? I didn't stoop that low -- you did. I don't think you're polite at all. You're just a closed-minded, bible-quoting zealot.

That is what I meant.

Is this thread still going? I don't know, a girl slips out to sacrifice a few goats in the moonlight and comes back to world war three.
I'm sorry but can't we just live and let live, whatever happened between the christians and the pagans happened a long time ago and throwing insults at each other now isn't going to change anything or make anybody feel better.
I have the greatest respect for anyone strong enough to have faith no matter what the religion, I just don't want other peoples ideals ramming down my throat each to there own.

Christians and Satanists ... same thing really.

Christians and Satanists ... same thing really.

No, not really. Polar opposites would be more accurate.

No, not really. Polar opposites would be more accurate.

Depends how you frame it: both desire a better-than-might-otherwise-be-expected outcome; one post-mortem, one pre-mortem: due to their adherrence.

Sorry love. Christianity came from Jesus Christ although Christianity did welcome pagans and adopted some of their customs.
For your information the definition of the word 'welcome' as follows:

welcome verb (welcomed, welcoming)
1 to receive (a guest or visitor, etc) with a warm greeting or kind hospitality.
2 to encourage (visits from a specified person or thing) • We welcome coach parties.
3 to invite (suggestions or contributions, etc).
4 to approve of (an action, etc).
5 to respond with pleasure to something

With this knew knowledge perhaps you'd like to rethink the post quoted above.

never thought this thread would provoke the reactions it did, i am happy in MY faith knowing that i dont have to go to a church to pray to someone who is not there. sorry to all the christians out there but there is too much contradition in your faith.eg, why is god a man, who says he is... what colour underpants did jesus wear, were they green??? oh lifes mysteries eh lol

No, not really. Polar opposites would be more accurate.

How are they different?

never thought this thread would provoke the reactions it did, i am happy in MY faith knowing that i dont have to go to a church to pray to someone who is not there. sorry to all the christians out there but there is too much contradition in your faith.eg, why is god a man, who says he is... what colour underpants did jesus wear, were they green??? oh lifes mysteries eh lol

And herein lies the problem. If you want people to accept your faith then you have to accept theirs.
Christianity is just as alive and real to it's followers as paganism is to me or you.
Contradictions or not, you must have respect if you wish to be respected. It's comments like yours that cause arguments and stop different people becoming educated and understanding of each other.

And herein lies the problem. If you want people to accept your faith then you have to accept theirs.
Christianity is just as alive and real to it's followers as paganism is to me or you.
Contradictions or not, you must have respect if you wish to be respected. It's comments like yours that cause arguments and stop different people becoming educated and understanding of each other.

problem is mojo that i aint met one christian yet who accepts my faith and i sometimes get a little ****** off with their superiority, but i take your point it was a bit childish of me

problem is mojo that i aint met one christian yet who accepts my faith and i sometimes get a little ****** off with their superiority, but i take your point it was a bit childish of me

I have many friends of many faiths, some are accepting some are not and we just agree to disagree and try not to let the subject slip onto religion. Inevitably after a couple of drinks it comes up and we have a healthy debate and all go away understanding a little more but still disagreeing.
I have friends who are Jehova's witnesses who can't wait for me to come out of my little phase, I laugh and joke with them about it and we just get on with more the more enjoyable things in life.
The other side of it is I don't advertise my faith, it's very personal to me and usually by the time a person gets to know my beliefs they already know what kind of person I am and find it a lot easier to accept.

The other side of it is I don't advertise my faith, it's very personal to me and usually by the time a person gets to know my beliefs they already know what kind of person I am and find it a lot easier to accept.[/QUOTE]

mojo, are you suggesting that i advertise my faith?? the reason i started this thread is because i was sick of people{mainly christians} thinking i was a satanist.... it would be like calling a jovo a jew, all i wanted to do was clear up a few issues thats all:mad:

With those beliefs, you're practically a Pagan, Norbert!

or are most pagans merely closet Norbertians?

I dont advertise my faith either, I dont feel the need to introduce myself as Litha the Pagan, but then again i dont hide it. I also have freinds of all different faiths one very special friend is Hindu.

My dads side of the family are catholic and my mams altho all have been christened dont really go to church except the usual funerals/weddings/chrisenings.

I think that what ever you want to beleive in the main thing is it doesnt hurt anyone or indeed yourself. If beleiveing in Jesus/God/the almighty spagetti God makes the sun shine a little brighter and gives that person hope and happiness then that is what counts.

A while ago on SF a bloke put a link to his christian website on and got absolutly shot to ribbons about it, people felt the need to pick on that person. I defended his right to beleive what he wanted, which resulted in another member posting the comment " how ironic the Witch defending the Christian"
to me this way of thinking is so out of date. People are not the same as they used to be , life has changed so much. We all know how wrong it is to say things against Islamic faiths, so why do people think its right for people to disrespect Pagan or Christian beliefs.

there are nutters and fundamentalists in every single faith/religion/belief/cult.

mojo, are you suggesting that i advertise my faith?? the reason i started this thread is because i was sick of people{mainly christians} thinking i was a satanist.... it would be like calling a jovo a jew, all i wanted to do was clear up a few issues thats all:mad:

I'm not suggesting that you advertise your faith I am stating that I don't.
But having said that why do christians think you're a satanist if you don't advertise it? If you didn't how would they know what you were into?
If you are talking about all christians thinking all pagans, wiccans or witches are satanists the you are wrong they don't, they think that satanists are satanists and they would be right.
It's a cult that has developed over the last couple of centuries and it bares striking similarities to traditional witchcraft.
It's a communication breakdown that leads to the two being linked together not an indoctrination by the church.
In actual fact you will find that it's the people of no faith at all that judge witchcraft the most harshly.

Why do these so-called witches and pagans keep calling it a "faith". What exactly have they got faith in?

Why do these so-called witches and pagans keep calling it a "faith". What exactly have they got faith in?
Of course it's a faith/s, they believe in supernatural stuff that there is of course no evidence for therefore by definition witches and pagans have a faith/s.

Why do these so-called witches and pagans keep calling it a "faith". What exactly have they got faith in?

A Goddess, a God, the elemental spirits, faith in your fellow man, faith in nature, faith that the harvest will be blessed, faith that an act done for good or bad will be returned threefold..... and so on.
We have to have alot of faith in alot of things.

For your information the definition of the word 'welcome' as follows:

welcome verb (welcomed, welcoming)
1 to receive (a guest or visitor, etc) with a warm greeting or kind hospitality.
2 to encourage (visits from a specified person or thing) • We welcome coach parties.
3 to invite (suggestions or contributions, etc).
4 to approve of (an action, etc).
5 to respond with pleasure to something

With this knew knowledge perhaps you'd like to rethink the post quoted above.

That is precisely what I intended to say. Christians built churches near pagan worship sites and invited/welcomed pagans into their churches. Christians also moved their festivals to encourage pagans to adopt Christianity.

That is precisely what I intended to say. Christians built churches near pagan worship sites and invited/welcomed pagans into their churches. Christians also moved their festivals to encourage pagans to adopt Christianity.
but why would they feel the need to encourage Pagans to adopt Christianity? why not just be happy to beleive what they want and leave others to beleive what they want too ?

problem is mojo that i aint met one christian yet who accepts my faith and i sometimes get a little ****** off with their superiority, but i take your point it was a bit childish of me
Christians in general do seem to have a very hard time tolerating never mind respecting paganism.

I remember a feature on News Night a few years back when some University or other had just started employing a pagan chaplain. After the taped report they had a studio debate with some pagan person (possibly the chaplain in question) and some grumpy Xian woman. The Xian basically accused the pagan religion of being simultaneously made up nonsense and dangerous devil worship, however despite repeated questions from the host she refused to condemn in any way the Universities employment of Islamic, Jewish, Hindu... chaplains.

Most Christians seem to feel the need to pay lip service, in public at least, to other established world faiths as yet they don't seem to feel the need to give paganism any respect at all. Of course as an atheist I see all religions as rather silly but I am atleast consistent in doing so and think wiccans/pagans should have the same rights and respect as those of other more established faiths.

That is precisely what I intended to say. Christians built churches near pagan worship sites and invited/welcomed pagans into their churches. Christians also moved their festivals to encourage pagans to adopt Christianity.
Oh I see, it would seem you're simply ignorant or the reality of how Christians dealt with indigenous religions, I thought you were confusing the word 'persecute' with 'welcome'.

That is precisely what I intended to say. Christians built churches near pagan worship sites and invited/welcomed pagans into their churches. Christians also moved their festivals to encourage pagans to adopt Christianity.

LOL haven't laughed that much for ages

LOL haven't laughed that much for ages

Neither have I

That is precisely what I intended to say. Christians built churches near pagan worship sites and invited/welcomed pagans into their churches. Christians also moved their festivals to encourage pagans to adopt Christianity.

This was a policy of the roman empire in its latter years. It wasn't a sign of religious tolerance, more a way of making occupation seem less opressive, and therefore helping to control the masses. I've not heard of the practice among post roman christians.

right, let me get one thing straight, i am not out to offend any person of any religion. i am merely stating that witches have nothing to do with satan.... if there are some people who cannot understand that then i pity them for their low intelligence:rant:

Why do you see a Yew Tree in the grounds of old churches? It is because the Yew was a sacred symbol to the pagan and they worshiped around the Yew Tree. When Christianity was introduced into England the Christians built their churches near these sacred sites in the hope the pagans would come into the churches for their worship and perhaps/hopefully adopt Christianity.

Here is a little more about the similarities between Christianity and paganism.

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/pagan-symbols.html

xruthx you seem very defensive of your beliefs. You shouldnt feel the need to fight your corner. Just be at peace with yourself . It is your choice to have faith in something or not. I have had jehovahs witnesess wanting to save me. Good on them but i dont need saving from a life i am very lucky to have. You must also show the same respect to other peoples religions and you want for your own. I myself now of a few "bad eggs" within the christian religion but also with pagans. Its the individuals themselves. They are sometimes just to clever at twisting the words of their faith to excuse bad behaviour. My own opinon of paganism is very diffrent from the stereo typical view. Paganism to me means off no religon (this is my opinion). I have faith in my family and my loved ones and i believe we should show great respect to the earth that we live in and what it provides for us to survive . I dont think i believe in a higher being but i do struggle to believe that when someone dies they are gone forever. I have to believe this as my sister died only 12 years old and i could not possibly cope with the thought off her being gone completly. I do belive in being grateful for what we have and for showing respect for how lucky you are. Wether you chose to say grace before a meal or conduct a ceromony. I believe we should not harm others and should go out of our way to be their for people who need it. I think most religions do this but again this is down to individuals not specific to their religion.

I'm sorry but can't we just live and let live, whatever happened between the christians and the pagans happened a long time ago and throwing insults at each other now isn't going to change anything or make anybody feel better. I have the greatest respect for anyone strong enough to have faith no matter what the religion, I just don't want other peoples ideals ramming down my throat each to there own.

"Whatever happened between the Christians and Pagans" is still happening, Mojo1... as evidenced by Pagan posters' experiences and some of the comments on this thread. I respect other people's faiths by not proselytizing; it's not required for my savation.

Any true Pagan or Wiccan believes in the "live and let live" philosophy, as I do. But that doesn't prevent us from defending ourselves from attacks or correcting misinformation.

Paganism and Wicca demand a commitment to work for "the benefit of all and the detriment of none" and they deliver a severe cosmic punishment to those who do intentionally harm others. That certainly rules out Satanism -- and a few other religions I won't name here.

Peace, harmony and freedom? So mote it be!

right, let me get one thing straight, i am not out to offend any person of any religion. i am merely stating that witches have nothing to do with satan.... if there are some people who cannot understand that then i pity them for their low intelligence:rant:

Most people have got their understanding of witchcraft from hammer films I'm afraid, it's a bit sad really.

i know lindos, but alot also get this silly veiw from other religions too, it makes my blood boil when i get classed as a harm doer when in fact witches, or should i say true witches will only do good for others.... it is a sad fact that a majority of abuse in the name of religion happens in the church

right, let me get one thing straight, i am not out to offend any person of any religion. i am merely stating that witches have nothing to do with satan.... if there are some people who cannot understand that then i pity them for their low intelligence:rant:


The fact of the matter is that people have abused and twisted wiccan beliefs to carry out indecent behavior. This has happened in most religions though not just wiccan, pagan etc. If the only example that socitey really see is of crazy cults and sacrifices then you can only expect this sort of reaction. The view of christians sometimes is that of mad bible bashers (not my opinon by the way just trying to make my point) but that is also forgetting the ordinary people in there homes that just look to god for strength and hope and believe that they should be good people.

Why do you see a Yew Tree in the grounds of old churches? It is because the Yew was a sacred symbol to the pagan and they worshiped around the Yew Tree. When Christianity was introduced into England the Christians built their churches near these sacred sites in the hope the pagans would come into the churches for their worship and perhaps/hopefully adopt Christianity.

Here is a little more about the similarities between Christianity and paganism.

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/pagan-symbols.html
Because of course building a church on top of somebody else's place of worship is just a way of being friendly and in no way an aggressive act designed to persecute and help stamp out the indigenous religion :rolleyes:

Most people have got their understanding of witchcraft from hammer films I'm afraid, it's a bit sad really.

Why do you think that anything on a Hammer film is less or more silly than the satanists in Sheffield? Personally I like to see the odd loony as it is what makes Britain great, but we really shouldn't talk about their religion with any kind of respect as it really doesn't deserve taking seriously.

haliluah, someone who can see through the lies.. the christians built their churches to stamp us out. they also burnt us at the stake. what a weird so called peaceful religion, hypocritical too:hihi:

IA while ago on SF a bloke put a link to his christian website on and got absolutly shot to ribbons about it, people felt the need to pick on that person. I defended his right to beleive what he wanted, which resulted in another member posting the comment " how ironic the Witch defending the Christian"


You mean the cynical tit who pretended he'd set up a website about christianity in Sheffield, when in fact he was from some other part of the country, duplicating his site for loads of cities, going on those cities forums and pretending the same. Thanks!

ITo me this way of thinking is so out of date. People are not the same as they used to be , life has changed so much. We all know how wrong it is to say things against Islamic faiths, so why do people think its right for people to disrespect Pagan or Christian beliefs.


Someone must have forgotten to tell me not to say things against Islam, cos it too is lifewasting baseless bullsh*t.

Christians, Hindus, Muslims & "Hedgewitches" can play dress-up all they like, but I'll be damned if I'm going to smile indulgently at them.

kenh, are you once again referring to witches as satanists or merely stating a point, please explain:confused:

Because of course building a church on top of somebody else's place of worship is just a way of being friendly and in no way an aggressive act designed to persecute and help stamp out the indigenous religion :rolleyes:

The churches were built NEAR Yew Trees, not on top of them you silly and in no way interfered with the pagan worshipers.

You don't half try my patience plekanov. :help: Help, save me from this man somebody please.

graeme, with all due respects christianity has never welcomed us.. and 2000 years later it is still the same. sorry to **** on your parade but its a fact:)

graeme, with all due respects christianity has never welcomed us.. and 2000 years later it is still the same. sorry to **** on your parade but its a fact:)

You will have to give chapter and verse for that.

Did you read the web site I put up?

no graheme i did'nt but will look it up ok:)

graeme, with all due respects christianity has never welcomed us.. and 2000 years later it is still the same. sorry to **** on your parade but its a fact:)

You dont need to censor "rain" its not a swear word.

(sorry that was for my amusement because i found it very funny) :D :hihi: :help:

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: waxon

The churches were built NEAR Yew Trees, not on top of them you silly and in no way interfered with the pagan worshipers.

You don't half try my patience plekanov. :help: Help, save me from this man somebody please.
Pagans worshipped around yew trees, Christian built their churches next to yew trees putting the yew trees within the churches ground and amongst Christian tombs, therefore Xians built their places of worship on top of pagan places of worship.

There are also numerous accounts, mostly from Xian sources, of Christians seizing and converting pagan temples into Churches and cutting down holy trees and so forth in direct aggressive attempts to displace indigenous religions.

I can't believe in satanism or witchcraft, just as I can't believe in Christianity or any other religion.

Satanists and pagans aren't usually very good at talking in detail about their beliefs, they just tend to fob questions off by saying 'You don't understand' or 'Christianity ripped of paganism'.

I'm sure not all are like that, but the vast majority I have encountered would rather talk about what a load of rubbish christianity is, rather than their own religion/belief.

As for spells and blessings, I think they're ridiculous. How do they work?

"Whatever happened between the Christians and Pagans" is still happening, Mojo1... as evidenced by Pagan posters' experiences and some of the comments on this thread. I respect other people's faiths by not proselytizing; it's not required for my savation.

Any true Pagan or Wiccan believes in the "live and let live" philosophy, as I do. But that doesn't prevent us from defending ourselves from attacks or correcting misinformation.

Paganism and Wicca demand a commitment to work for "the benefit of all and the detriment of none" and they deliver a severe cosmic punishment to those who do intentionally harm others. That certainly rules out Satanism -- and a few other religions I won't name here.
Peace, harmony and freedom? So mote it be!

The best way to defend yourself on a written forum such as this is to rise above insults and correct or debate misinformation. Nobody can talk over you and everybody will get to read your opinion without you coming across as being overly defensive.
I don't think you were actually attacked for your beliefs on here I think you were dismissed. Your response was an attack though and that settles nothing. I have seen no evidence that the christian faith is oppressing the pagans on this thread, I have seen that some people have had some unfortunate incidents with some bad or misguided people and that some others just want to get a rise out of an overly sensitive situation.

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: waxon

Thanks i am very easily amused.

Why do you think that anything on a Hammer film is less or more silly than the satanists in Sheffield? Personally I like to see the odd loony as it is what makes Britain great, but we really shouldn't talk about their religion with any kind of respect as it really doesn't deserve taking seriously.

If your talking about satanists, then I agree entirely. They don't bother me much, as long as it's only the odd chicken that gets the chop.

But satanism is a reletively new idea and not connected to the much older pagan religions.

they work by harnessing the power of nature

no graheme i did'nt but will look it up ok:)

The Pagans of Rome persecuted and even slaughtered the first Christians.

http://www.salemgathering.com/gathering_web/newpages/pagan_talk_signup.html

they work by harnessing the power of nature

That's very vague. How exactly do you 'harness the power of nature'?

thank you grahene... pretty informative, but who am i to say if its true or not?? just like who are the christians to say the bible is true??

I can't believe in satanism or witchcraft, just as I can't believe in Christianity or any other religion.

Satanists and pagans aren't usually very good at talking in detail about their beliefs, they just tend to fob questions off by saying 'You don't understand' or 'Christianity ripped of paganism'.

As for spells and blessings, I think they're ridiculous. How do they work?

I cast a spell that removed your ability to believe in any faith and that worked. :hihi:

If we knew how spells and blessings worked it would be a science and not a faith.

graeme, with all due respects christianity has never welcomed us.. and 2000 years later it is still the same. sorry to **** on your parade but its a fact:)
Indeed it hasn't nothing much has changed today, this is a story from the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1939477,00.html) about Christian's 'welcoming' behaviour to Pagans in the UK just last year.

Catholic marchers turn on Glastonbury pagans

· Police arrest youth on suspicion of harassment
· Priest distances church from intimidation

Thair Shaikh
Saturday November 4, 2006
The Guardian

In scenes reminiscent of medieval witchhunts, Catholic pilgrims in Glastonbury have attacked pagans and threatened to "cleanse" them from the town.

Local pagans were pelted with salt and branded witches who "would burn in hell" during a procession organised by Youth 2000, a conservative Catholic lay group. The Magick Box, a pagan shop on the route of the march, was also singled out and attacked.

Maya Pinder, the owner of the shop, said: "We've had to hear comments such as 'burn the witches', we've had salt thrown in our faces and at our shop, people were openly saying they were 'cleansing Glastonbury of paganism'.

"It was as if we had returned to the dark ages. This is hugely damaging to Glastonbury ... it is hard enough to trade in Glastonbury as it is, if you were to take away the pagan element it would be a dead town." The Somerset town is known for having a large population of resident and visiting pagans.

The archdruid of Glastonbury, Dreow Bennett, said: "To call the behaviour of some of their members medieval would be an understatement. I personally witnessed the owner of of the Magick Box being confronted by one of their associates and being referred to as a bloody bitch and being told 'you will burn in hell'."

Father Kevin Knox-Lecky of St Mary's church said that after meeting representatives of the pagan community he had decided not to invite Youth 2000 to the town again.

He said: "A family appeared who we don't know, who were very destructive not only in the town and to the pagan community, but were also swearing at our parishioners as well."

He said the majority of Catholics taking part in the procession had been well-behaved and respectful of the pagans.

The retreat was organised last week to mark the 467th anniversary of the beheading of the last abbot of Glastonbury Abbey, Richard Whiting, and fellow martyrs.

Youth 2000 describes itself as "an independent, international initiative that helps young adults aged 16-35 plug back into God at the heart of the Roman Catholic Church".

It was set up 10 years ago by a disenchanted Catholic barrister who wanted a return to the traditional teachings of the church for young people.

Charlie Conner, the managing director of Youth 2000, said: "There were several incidents that happened that same weekend that were linked to people who had come to Glastonbury for the retreat. This was in direct contravention of the general spirit of Youth 2000 and its express instructions. The young man who was fined was not in fact registered on the retreat, although he did attempt to attend it.

"Youth 2000 does not condone or encourage this kind of behaviour from anyone. We fully agree that differences on matters of faith cannot and should not be resolved by any kind of harassment."

A spokesman for Avon and Somerset police confirmed a youth had been arrested at Magick Box on suspicion of causing harassment, alarm or distress.

Two women were also given cautions and warned about their future conduct.

it takes too long to go into in depth.. you would have to go to a local coven to see them in action. picture mother nature at her worse, ie, hurricanes etc, we just call upon the power of hte elements to cast out good to others

I cast a spell that removed your ability to believe in any faith and that worked. :hihi:

If we knew how spells and blessings worked it would be a science and not a faith.

How can you do something if you don't know how it works?

can i just add it is nothing like harry potter:hihi:

it takes too long to go into in depth.. you would have to go to a local coven to see them in action. picture mother nature at her worse, ie, hurricanes etc, we just call upon the power of hte elements to cast out good to others

No, please, I've got all the time in the world. I don't believe in 'mother nature'. I believe in hurricanes, sure, but I believe them to be caused by a warm storm system fueled by thunderstorms near its center, feeding on the heat released when moist air rises and the water vapor in it condenses.

This is yet another vague, dodging of a question that I usually get when asking a pagan about something.

thank you grahene... pretty informative, but who am i to say if its true or not?? just like who are the christians to say the bible is true??

You can check it out. The library will have something on it. Everything is verifiable. I may have something about it in one of my books, but would you believe me?

The Pagans of Rome persecuted and even slaughtered the first Christians.

http://www.salemgathering.com/gathering_web/newpages/pagan_talk_signup.html
The Pagan Roman empire was on the whole religiously tolerant, massively more so than it when it became fully Christian never mind the astonishingly intollerant Christian Europe which came into being after the fall of the empire, and the incidences of religious persecution of Christians and other groups were sporadic and relatively rare.

yes graheme, i would be very interested to know because unlike some religions we are always open to debate:hihi:

yes graheme, i would be very interested to know because unlike some religions we are always open to debate:hihi:

OK. I will have a look but I can't promise anything. :)

nekro. i invite you to my house to watch me while i work, then you will see for yourself why it is difficult to explain on here, there are many different things involved so it depends which one you wabt explaining.... can i also point out that the christians nicked easter too:hihi:

On the subject of Rome & Christians, this is somehting I'm relatively well informed on having done a few modules on the the early development and spread of Christianity at uni.

The Roman Empire was on the whole very religiously tolerant (much more tolerant than any of the following Christian states). Persecution of Christians was short lived and sporadically applied usually at a local level. There are no recorded persecutions till 64AD and no general persecutions til mid C3.

There were 3 general emperor instigated clampdowns on Christianity 250-1, 257-9 and 303-11 it’s important to bear in mind that the Roman Empire wasn’t all that centralised and their was considerable variety in the extent to which these centrally inspired persecutions were implemented across the empire.

As far as we can tell local persecutions were generally in response to local circumstances. It’s worth thinking about the impact of Christian upon Roman society, Christians:
*refuted all other religions and denied all other gods,
*rejected and argued against traditional social and religious practices (and the Romans really liked tradition), of particular significance here was refusing to swear by Imperial Genius.
*refused to take part in communal festivals – these practices were seen by others as disrupting the ‘pax diorum’ (it messed up relationships with the Gods)

basically they did quite a lot to **** off traditionalists and were often a cause of social tension.

This social disruption annoyed your Average Roman governor as did:
*the fact that Christians followed a man they claim to have been crucified by a Roman official
*the quite obvious Christian hatred Rome (it didn’t take a genius to figure out that Babylon=Rome)
*Christian preaching that the end was nigh, a belief in which makes people less likely to pay taxes and so forth

All this meant that Christians were perfectly placed as scapegoats and this was the probable reason for many of the local persecutions.

When they weren’t being scapegoated some Christians actively sought out martyrdom, for reasons similar to those that I expect drive devote Muslims become martyrs today with the added incentive that the founder of Christianity was a martyr. However as suicide bombing hadn’t been invented back then they tended to go up to officials and deny the deity of the emperor, smash up pagan shrines or basically do something to get themselves martyred.

As far as I’m aware throwing Christians to the lions didn’t happen very often (sorry I don’t have any figures for the number of ‘martyrs’ or how they were martyrd) the belief that it did is largely a product of Christian myth making. Whenever considering any aspect of the History of the early church it is essential to bear in mind that popular opinion on the matter and many of our sources have been filtered through over 1500 years of Christian dominated culture, a culture which it has to be said was for most of its history far, far more persecuting that the Roman Empire ever was.

How can you do something if you don't know how it works?

Thats why it's called faith, you just have to believe and no amount of explanation will be enough for you because you don't have it, it's like trying to describe a starry night to somebody who was born blind.
The rituals involved are fulfilling and make you feel good like you have done something for the benefit of others.
I said earlier that for me and many like me it's a very personal thing and so even if I could put it into words it would not necessarily be the same for the next person you spoke to.
I wish that you could understand it as I wish everybody could.
If you can't believe in paganism/witchcraft itself, then please believe that those of us that do feel great fulfilment and happiness and try not to take that away from us.

I have spent a bit of time investigating this using reliable sites on the internet. It seems that paganists ARE in fact satanists after all.

This quite sums it up nicely for me:-


it behooves us to start out by defining the term "witchcraft". Is witch craft satanic? Webster's Dictionary defines a witch as someone who gets supernatural powers from contact with evil spirits. Perhaps this is why the bible is so strongly against withcraft. Exodus 22:18 (KJV) "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."


http://www.anunseenworld.com/Wiccae.html

No I don't know what "behooves" means either.

omg, just how stupid are you ken, i mean seriously. s.a.t.a.n. came along way after pagans.... my goddess man, get a grip on reality cos you have no idea. for the first time in my life i feel like hexing!!!!! oooooo aint i a naughty satanist... now grow up:rant:

I have spent a bit of time investigating this using reliable sites on the internet. It seems that paganists ARE in fact satanists after all.

This quite sums it up nicely for me:-



http://www.anunseenworld.com/Wiccae.html

No I don't know what "behooves" means either.

Stirrer :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

omg, just how stupid are you ken, i mean seriously. s.a.t.a.n. came along way after pagans.... my goddess man, get a grip on reality cos you have no idea. for the first time in my life i feel like hexing!!!!! oooooo aint i a naughty satanist... now grow up:rant:

Go on, turn him into a newt! :hihi:

can i also add that the bible is full of contradicions so dont go spouting that **** at me cos its wasted:mad:

I have spent a bit of time investigating this using reliable sites on the internet. It seems that paganists ARE in fact satanists after all.
If you accept the Christian world view then yes pagans are satanists as any supernatural force not coming from Yahweh must instead come from the devil, who may well be disguising himself to trick well meaning people.

However pagans don't accept the Christian worldview and believe in neither Yahweh nor the devil and certainly don't consciously worship either of them, as such it is nonsensical to say 'paganists ARE in fact satanists'.

some people are soooooooo stupid

and if god exists...was it not him who said thy shall not commit incest? so where the **** did all the people come from??:confused:

Right I'm off if this thread is going to be about pulling other peoples faiths to peices rather than validating your own I want nothing more to do with it.
I'll check in later to see if the playground name calling and bullying has ceased.

mojo. the only person being ripped to bits on here is me.... if you read the posts made by a certain kenh, he has as good as called me a satanist. i am only firing back

No he hasn't, he's winding you up and you keep falling for it.
Anyhow I was talking to you both.
What does it matter what he thinks anyway? You know you're not a satanist so ignore it.
I'm trully amazed that more people haven't tried to wind you up on here not because of your beliefs but because of your defensiveness.

why shouldnt i be defensive of my faith. it is something i hold dear to me, would you not be defensive of your children if they were being hurt. it is exactly the same thing, and i should not be pulled down for my defensivness, it is who i am

why shouldnt i be defensive of my faith. it is something i hold dear to me, would you not be defensive of your children if they were being hurt. it is exactly the same thing, and i should not be pulled down for my defensivness, it is who i am

Quite right but some people will use it against you.

why have you always got to have the last word lol:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:
.... only joking, i value your imput x x

yes graheme, i would be very interested to know because unlike some religions we are always open to debate:hihi:
I hope this helps.

Paganism (Lat. pagamis, meaning countryman).
The word is supposed to have been first applied by the early Christians to the country folk who were the last to abandon the ancient beliefs and practices.

Paganism is a form of religion which worships a god or gods other than the One True God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Religious feeling in the Middle Ages led Christians to describe as pagans both Muslims and Jews.

Paganism is in fact identical with polytheism. It is probable that the earliest manifestation of religion was monotheistic and that Paganism arose from a tendency in primitive man not only to distinguish the divine attributes but to deify natural phenomena. These phenomena are easily recognisable in the familiar deities of Greece and Rome.

The anthropomorphic character of the pagan gods led inevitably to the exaltation of human passions. The Jews appear to have been the first to recognise the intimate link between Paganism and amorality, and the denunciations of their law and prophets are summed up in the magnificent epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. From that time human history has been the story of man's loyalty now to the One, now to the Many.

Though Paganism has long been officially abandoned in the Western world it may be said that neither camp has finally rid itself of the influence of the other. (This was written in 1949 and there has been a recent revival of paganism as you know. GK)

The effects of Babylon, Assyria, and Rome failed to destroy the monotheism of the Jews and Christians and the superstitions of the ancient world are not dead in our time. The influence of Paganism can be detected in the fierce monotheism of Islam; and the general councils of the English Church have been mainly concerned to rebut the influence upon its theology of the pagan world.


See M. A. Beugnot, Histoire de la destruction du paganisme en Occident, 1835; E. de Pressenae, The Ancient World and Christianity, 1888; and F. C. Conybeare,Myth, Magic, and Morals, 1909.

why shouldnt i be defensive of my faith. it is something i hold dear to me, would you not be defensive of your children if they were being hurt. it is exactly the same thing, and i should not be pulled down for my defensivness, it is who i am


I think that if you are going to believe such silly things then you really need to give up being defensive. If you are desperate to defend yourself then why not just look at the even sillier link I provided where some yank god-botherers use words like "behooving". In the unlikely event that I was serious when I posted that link you could use the content to make a fool of me.

http://www.thorshearth.com/hearth/index.php?x=odinism.php

ken i would not dream of making a fool of you and i find it hurtful that you would want to do that to me. if you was not being serious and merely winding me up, then you should have done it somewhere else instead of a serious thread:(

This article you’ve cut and pasted is nothing more than a hilariously biased collection of unsupported assertions, which consistently attempts to promote Christianity, cast paganism in a negative and blame things on paganism that it clearly had nothing to do with.
I hope this helps.

Paganism (Lat. pagamis, meaning countryman).
The word is supposed to have been first applied by the early Christians to the country folk who were the last to abandon the ancient beliefs and practices.

Paganism is a form of religion which worships a god or gods other than the One True God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Religious feeling in the Middle Ages led Christians to describe as pagans both Muslims and Jews.

Paganism is in fact identical with polytheism. It is probable that the earliest manifestation of religion was monotheistic
Why is this probable?

and that Paganism arose from a tendency in primitive man not only to distinguish the divine attributes but to deify natural phenomena. These phenomena are easily recognisable in the familiar deities of Greece and Rome. The anthropomorphic character of the pagan gods led inevitably to the exaltation of human passions. The Jews appear to have been the first to recognise the intimate link between Paganism and amorality,
Because of course the misogynistic, homophobic, slave owning, human sacrificing, ethnic cleansing, Israelites who killed people for collecting sticks on the Sabbath are clearly a great source of moral judgement :rolleyes:

and the denunciations of their law and prophets are summed up in the magnificent epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. From that time human history has been the story of man's loyalty now to the One, now to the Many.
Odd that this guy who considers himself an authority on matters of religious belief seems utterly ignorant of for example Dharmist & Taoists religions, or maybe he’s aware of them but just doesn’t consider Asians to be part of ‘human history’.

Though Paganism has long been officially abandoned in the Western world
‘officially abandoned’ is a curious euphemism for systematically and often viscously persecuted.

it may be said that neither camp has finally rid itself of the influence of the other. (This was written in 1949 and there has been a recent revival of paganism as you know. GK)
Clearly an attempt to infer that the barbaric nature of Nazism is due to paganism, despite the fact that Hitler was a Christian and that the vicious anti-Semitism of the Nazi regime was only able to thrive because of the long and disgraceful history in of anti-Semitism in European Christianity.

The effects of Babylon, Assyria, and Rome failed to destroy the monotheism of the Jews and Christians and the superstitions of the ancient world are not dead in our time. The influence of Paganism can be detected in the fierce monotheism of Islam;
Because of course there has never at any point ever been anything the least bit ‘fierce’ about the other Abrahamic religions: rolleyes:

and the general councils of the English Church have been mainly concerned to rebut the influence upon its theology of the pagan world.

See M. A. Beugnot, Histoire de la destruction du paganisme en Occident, 1835; E. de Pressenae, The Ancient World and Christianity, 1888; and F. C. Conybeare,Myth, Magic, and Morals, 1909.
Could you have picked a more biased source? I doubt it, the 'One True God' indeed :rolleyes:

The best way to defend yourself on a written forum such as this is to rise above insults and correct or debate misinformation. Nobody can talk over you and everybody will get to read your opinion without you coming across as being overly defensive.
I don't think you were actually attacked for your beliefs on here I think you were dismissed. Your response was an attack though and that settles nothing. I have seen no evidence that the christian faith is oppressing the pagans on this thread, I have seen that some people have had some unfortunate incidents with some bad or misguided people and that some others just want to get a rise out of an overly sensitive situation.

First of all, who nominated you mediator? You don't have to tell Pagans and Wiccans "to live and let live"; that's preaching to the choir -- and it's more than a little condescending.

First of all, who nominated you mediator? You don't have to tell Pagans and Wiccans "to live and let live"; that's preaching to the choir -- and it's more than a little condescending.

I was talking to more than one person with more than one point of view or belief.
I was simply trying to get people back into a dicussion rather than a slanging match and then maybe some understandings might be realised.
Preaching to the choir, I'm ashamed to say that the only people to be openly hostile on here about other faiths have been pagans and thats not what I call a live and let live attitude.
I'm just trying to keep some dignity for pagans/wiccans and I'm sorry if that gets up your nose but the constant bickering about who's beliefs are better gets up mine.

then you should have done it somewhere else instead of a serious thread:(

I hate to tell you this but you can't have a serious thread about witches, fairies, satan etc, it is all just too silly.

I hate to tell you this but you can't have a serious thread about witches, fairies, satan etc, it is all just too silly.


oooo ken luvvy you are such a cheeky little fellow with such a dry sense of humour and i myself have fell for it on a few occasions :hihi:
but now that you have been rumbled as a prankster do you think you are upto abit of "real debate" :)

Behoove means 'it would be in your best interests'.

Satanism, as a religion, is quite interesting. It bares no relation to "worshipping the devil" in any way, shape or form.

getting quite sick of it all now... mojo if you dont think that being called a satanist is attacking then there is something wrong:loopy:

I'm not suprised people are getting sick of it (then again, discussing religion is always bound to end in stress).

We are all just people, human beings, whatever doctrine you choose to follow, or what you call yourself, it makes not one bit of difference, you are just only human.

So you see, a 'satanist' is just the same as a 'christian', becasue they're both *just* people. Yes, perhaps they strive for different things, all people do, but a person is not their striving. Also, they do seem just as half-baked as each other, empasising the importance of only part of your being, and denial of the other part.

The notion that spiritual is good, and phisical is bad, is just as f****d up as the idea that you're an independent being with no inter-connectedness going on with the rest of the universe (and as a speicies, there's a yin-yang to this christians and satanists thing, it's nature's way of maintaining balance).

I tend not to like any kind of doctrine, as it leads to rigidity, un-naturalness and in-balance. Mankind is forever seeking to distort his un-forced, natural state. Why? What is it with people? What can they not just let themselves be?

It's like a load of apples in a box; half of them calling themselves oranges, the other half calling themselves bananas; and then they all go to war over who is the best, oranges or bananas ...

true. very true. but then the apples would only be defending their natural state of being while the oroanges, who know they are really apples would be attacking the true apples because they are scared of who they really are:hihi:

I'm not suprised people are getting sick of it (then again, discussing religion is always bound to end in stress).

We are all just people, human beings, whatever doctrine you choose to follow, or what you call yourself, it makes not one bit of difference, you are just only human.

So you see, a 'satanist' is just the same as a 'christian', becasue they're both *just* people. Yes, perhaps they strive for different things, all people do, but a person is not their striving. Also, they do seem just as half-baked as each other, empasising the importance of only part of your being, and denial of the other part.

The notion that spiritual is good, and phisical is bad, is just as f****d up as the idea that you're an independent being with no inter-connectedness going on with the rest of the universe (and as a speicies, there's a yin-yang to this christians and satanists thing, it's nature's way of maintaining balance).

I tend not to like any kind of doctrine, as it leads to rigidity, un-naturalness and in-balance. Mankind is forever seeking to distort his un-forced, natural state. Why? What is it with people? What can they not just let themselves be?

It's like a load of apples in a box; half of them calling themselves oranges, the other half calling themselves bananas; and then they all go to war over who is the best, oranges or bananas ...

Doesn't it depend on how you see people? I mean if you see them like an apple with a grape on top for a head and four stalks for arms and legs, then I would agree with you. But what makes people different from apples is that people have an intellect and the ability to either harm or help other people. So by way of example if the Yorkshire Ripper believed prostitutes were bad, then his beliefs would lead him to take certain actions. I was watching a career the other day feed an elderly person and she did it so lovingly and carefully that it was beautiful to watch, but I see on television where another career hits elderly people for not eating their food. Perhaps one believes in "Tender Loving Care" and the other in euthanasia hence the difference in attitude between the two. Perhaps one was motivated by the desire to earn money, while the other was motivated by the desire to help other people, either way the actions of their hands was controlled by the emotional or spiritual aspect of their character. Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies. I put it to you that unlike apples, what people believe, think, and what motivates them is so important in our daily contact with others and places us in a position of responsibility towards our fellow human beings. It is what 'drives' us that is important.

great thread, i recommend a visit to the witchcraft museum in Boscastle if not already done so

been there its great:hihi:

great thread, i recommend a visit to the witchcraft museum in Boscastle if not already done so

Yes that place freaked me out. We stayed at the Wellington Hotel in Boscastle , and a few of the locals used to go into the bar there to sing and play their instruments. I will always remember the woman who stood up and sang about witchcraft and getting burnt at the stake to a packed bar. The hairs on my arms still stand on end when I think about that.

great thread, i recommend a visit to the witchcraft museum in Boscastle if not already done so

God has already punished the satanists who run that place once. I can only assume that the insurance company who paid for the rebuild are in league with the devil.

i dont beleive you kenh, tarring witches and satanists together again... wondered how long it would be b4 we were at each others troats again:hihi:

Doesn't it depend on how you see people? I mean if you see them like an apple with a grape on top for a head and four stalks for arms and legs, then I would agree with you. But what makes people different from apples is that people have an intellect and the ability to either harm or help other people.

I didn't mean that people were literally, like apples, it was just an analogy. Of course people have intellects and the ability to intend harm or help. However, often, intentions to help, actually do more harm than good, and intentions to harm can actually help.

So by way of example if the Yorkshire Ripper believed prostitutes were bad, then his beliefs would lead him to take certain actions. I was watching a career the other day feed an elderly person and she did it so lovingly and carefully that it was beautiful to watch, but I see on television where another career hits elderly people for not eating their food. Perhaps one believes in "Tender Loving Care" and the other in euthanasia hence the difference in attitude between the two. Perhaps one was motivated by the desire to earn money, while to other was motivated by the desire to help other people, either way the actions of their hands was controlled by the emotional or spiritual aspect of their character.

A person's actions are often as a result of what they believe to be, or what they believe will occur if they take action.

Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies.

I put it to you that all the qualities you mention, are inextricably linked to your physical being. There is no seperation of the qualities you mention from your physical being. They infact exhibit themselves through your physical being, and different qualities are linked with different internal organs or areas within the body. This is a typical christian thing, to look for a seperation from the body, and consider the body to be somehow sinful, bad or inferior to more spiritual aspects of your being. I believe it's a thing with people where they want to feel significant, they want to go on, they fear death (more than they desire to face truth, regardless of how unpalatable it may be).

I put it to you that unlike apples, what people believe, think, and what motivates them is so important in our daily contact with others and places us in a position of responsibility towards our fellow human beings. It is what 'drives' us that is important.

No man is an island, we are each one of us interconnected with the totality of life (though this is quite a subtle matter, and I am sure many would argue this point). If you desire a pleasant life, then it is wise to be mindful of this interconnectedness and understand how your own actions and thoughts impact on yourself, and on the rest of life. Furter more, it is wise to let yourself be natural, and unforced, such that the subtle intelligence that pervades all life can flow through you, without distortion.

If you desire money, power or whatever, it really doens't matter, you will still die, whatever you do.

Has anyone done the "dylsexic devil worshipper" gag on this thread yet?

nope but would love to hear it:hihi:

Believe me, you wouldn't.

come on basil, youve got me intrigued now

come on basil, youve got me intrigued now

It's been a while since a lady said that to me.

Anyway, here comes the big letdown......


Did you hear about the dyslexic devil worshipper?

































He sold his soul to Santa.


(coat on, taxi waiting)

The one who sold his soul to Santa?

LOL:hihi: that was quite funny x

The one who sold his soul to Santa?


Is there an echo in here?

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

Is there an echo in here?

No, You posted at the same time.

If you're disapointed then why not try the joke again on this thread ? (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=172934)

I put it to you that all the qualities you mention, are inextricably linked to your physical being. There is no seperation of the qualities you mention from your physical being. They infact exhibit themselves through your physical being, and different qualities are linked with different internal organs or areas within the body.

Our character is moulded by life's experiences, character building, discipline, study, education, and our background to name a few of the influences we come under. We often hear it said going into the army will make a new man of you. People change, but they keep the same body. If you have anything serious to say you will be able to give examples and present academic studies in your support but please don't give me waffle.

Our character is moulded by life's experiences, character building, discipline, study, education, and our background to name a few of the influences we come under. We often hear it said going into the army will make a new man of you. People change, but they keep the same body. If you have anything serious to say you will be able to give examples and present academic studies in your support but please don't give me waffle.
Pot kettle black, how about you 'give examples and present academic studies in your support' bizarre claim that:

either way the actions of their hands was controlled by the emotional or spiritual aspect of their character. Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies.

There is abundant evidence that our intellects are very much a part of our physical bodies both experimental and drawn from real life. For example there a many unfortunate examples that the physical brain is the source of our personality, intellect… in people who’ve experienced brain damage through disease or accidents and who’ve experienced changes in personality, mental ability and so forth as a result. Infact because of the obvious ethical problems with deliberately disabling peoples brains much of our knowledge of how the brain works comes from studies of such unfortunates.

More powerful evidence that the personality, intellect… are physical can be found in the effects the profusion of mind altering chemicals commonly used in our society have on people. Don’t believe me? Then I suggest you down a bottle of whisky and then try telling us again how ‘personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies.’

BTW Does anyone know whether Satanism & Witchcraft are acknowledged recognised religions in the UK?

Witchcraft includes, broadly, any claim to a power to produce effects by compact with a supernatural power. Modern anthropologists believe Witchcraft had its origin in a fertility cult or group of cults indigenous to Europe since Palaeolithic times, i.e. since the pre-agricultural era; its chief festivals were held at Candlemas, May Eve, Laramas, and November. The few direct accounts of its ritual which survive show that a horned god symbolising the fertility of cattle, sheep, goats, or occasionally deer was venerated, and that the local leader of the cult impersonated, and was regarded as, the incarnation of this god. This explains Christian traditions of a devil with horns and tail. Such ceremonies are depicted in the Palaeolithic cave-murals of Altamira, Ariege, etc.

As the objects of the seasonal rites was to promote fertility by sympathetic magic, so the adepts of the cult were deemed able to produce any natural effect by similar but opposite means—especially sterility and death. In the course of time the original cult received the accretion of discarded beliefs from other cults which tended to obscure its origins. This happened both with relation to the Aryan sky father gods (e.g. Jupiter, Odin) and Christianity, which were successively embraced by the governing class in W Europe, leaving Witchcraft as the religion, progressively more debased, of more and more humble social strata. At times it appears to have coalesced with Christian heresies (e.g. certain deviations of the Catharists) and occasionally to have attracted distinguished followers from the ruling Christian class. Possible examples are William Rufus, and Gilles de Rais, the patron of Joan of Arc (who was accounted a witch)

By the time of the Reformation, Witchcraft had assumed its final form as a secret society organised in ‘covens ‘ or groups of thirteen members of both sexes, of which the leader was always a man. By this time it is unlikely that there were many mentally normal people who believed in the cult. As members of a secret society witches could equally easily be denounced on charges of treason, heresy, or demonolatry. English laws against witches are known from the time of King Canute, and ecclesial and secular courts had concurrent jurisdiction in cases of Witchcraft. The former punished by penance and fine up to 1542 when Witchcraft was made a common felony (it was already indictable at common law)

Written evidence concerning W. trials as far back as the Middle Ages is copious but must be read with extreme care. Very frequently it was taken down by persons who did not understand the implications of what the accused and an witnesses said. The earliest reported trial in England before a secular court was in 1324; in that year occurred the famous trial before the bishop of Ossory of Dame Alice Kyteler (consult report by St Thomas Wright in the publications of the Camden Society). Apart from the statutes by passed in 1542 and 1562, the Act of 1601, defining and prescribing the punishment for W. remained the principle Act concerning a Witchcraft up to the Act of 1736. Under all these Acts the prosecution had to prove that injury to person or property had been done or attempted (but not in the case of love philtres), or that gain had been made.

Trials for W. were most numerous in the seventeenth century, when the final crisis of Witchcraft in Britain took place. By the time of Queen Anne, organised ‘covens‘ of witches had ceased to exist, and the public attitude towards them became less violent, not so much because people became more enlightened but because the element of fear had diminished, the surviving witches being so obviously either mentally or physically impotent for good or harm. The last recorded conviction in England was that of Jane Wenham of Walkern in Hertfordshire (1712), but a woman was actually burned alive in Sutherland as late as 1722. (For Continental trials consult J. Scheltema, an Geschiedder Hexenprocessen, Haarlem, fir 1828; and for Scottish, R. Pitcairn’s Criminal Trials in Scotland, 1833.) As the law now stands any person pretending to use Witchcraft tell fortunes, etc., may under or the Act of 1736 be imprisoned for a year. Proceedings may also be taken under the re Vagrancy Act of 1824 (see VAGRANTS). (Note, this was written in 1949 and I do not know if the law still remains. GK)

Sources.
See Erastus, Bodinus, V. Polydorus and ti< F. Hieronymus, passim ; R. Scot, Dis- 16 coterie of Witchcraft, 1584 ; Ponzinibius, It de Lamiis, 1592 ; Wierus, De Lamiis, st: 1597-79 ; H. Boquet, Discours des sor- mciers, 1603 ; Gauccius, Compendium de GiMaleficiis, 1626 ; T. Potts, Discovery of C(Witches in the County of Lancashire, 1845 ;works by S. Cigogha, 1607, and J. Glanvill, W1688 ; Margaret A. Murray, The God of Witches, 1921, and The Witch Cult in th Western Europe, 1933 ; H. Ross William- tason. The Arrow and the Sword, 194:7 ; pcR. Trevor Davies, Four Centuries of C<Witchcraft Beliefs, 1947 ; and R. Graves, seThe White Goddess, 1948.

BTW Does anyone know whether Satanism & Witchcraft are acknowledged recognised religions in the UK?

Apparently it is a criminal offence. See above.

witchcraft has never been a criminal offence, hope not cos i gonna join police force

BTW Does anyone know whether Satanism & Witchcraft are acknowledged recognised religions in the UK?
Satanism is officially recognised by the Royal Navy atleast:

Navy approves first ever Satanist

The British Armed Forces has officially recognised its first registered Satanist, a newspaper reports.

Naval technician Chris Cranmer, 24, has been allowed to register by the captain of HMS Cumberland, based at Devonport Naval Base in Plymouth.

The move will mean that he will now be allowed to perform Satanic rituals on board the vessel.

According to the Sunday Telegraph, Mr Cranmer realised he was a Satanist nine years ago.

Religious values

Mr Cranmer said that was when he stumbled across a copy of the Satanic Bible, written by Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey.

He said: "I then read more and more and came to realise I'd always been a Satanist, just simply never knew."

Mr Cranmer, who is from Edinburgh, is now lobbying the Ministry of Defence to make Satanism a registered religion in the armed forces.

Former Tory minister Ann Widdecombe said she was "utterly shocked" by the Royal Navy's decision.

"Satanism is wrong. Obviously the private beliefs of individuals anywhere, including the armed forces, are their own affair but I hope it doesn't spread."

She added: "The Navy should not permit Satanist practices on board its ships.

"God himself gives free will, but I would like to think that if somebody applied to the Navy and said they were a Satanist today it would raise its eyebrows somewhat."

A spokesman for the Royal Navy said: "We are an equal opportunities employer and we don't stop anybody from having their own religious values."

The path to Satan

The Church of Satan was established in San Francisco in 1966.

Mr LaVey was its high priest until his death in 1997.

Followers live by the Nine Satanic Statements, which include "Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence", "Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek" and "Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification".

Doug Harris, director of the Reachout Trust, an evangelical Christian ministry that "builds a bridge of reason" to those involved in cults and the occult, says the statements are "selfish".

"Following such tenets and working them out practically in your life seems to produce a selfish person not a member of a team," he said. BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm)
I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be either, there's exactly as much evidence to suggest that Satanism is valid as there is for all the other religions, if you accept any one religion it's difficult to argue that you shouldn't accept all the rest as well.

Our character is moulded by life's experiences, character building, discipline, study, education, and our background to name a few of the influences we come under. We often hear it said going into the army will make a new man of you. People change, but they keep the same body. If you have anything serious to say you will be able to give examples and present academic studies in your support but please don't give me waffle.

Waffle Graphame?

Did someone just say there was an echo in here ...

If you want to give these concepts (of wholistic well-being and the relationship between spirit, mind and body) some serious research you may want to start looking here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCM_model_of_the_body
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine

witchcraft has never been a criminal offence, hope not cos i gonna join police force

You are kidding aren't you? Until 1736 you could be put to death for witchcraft. The very last witchcraft law wasn't repealed until 1951.

we are talking about today ken. i have been a witch for many years and have never been arrested for it. just like to point out that i have never slaughtered a chicken, hugged a tree or had an orgy either:hihi:

we are talking about today ken. i have been a witch for many years and have never been arrested for it. just like to point out that i have never slaughtered a chicken, hugged a tree or had an orgy either:hihi:

To be honest I look on witchcraft in the same way I look on playing with fire or taking drugs. In other words it may harm your health, only in the case of witchcraft it may be your mental health that suffers.

This is in part reply to the two on here who think physical health and mental health are inseparable.

are you a christian graheme:suspect: why would it harm my mentqal health??

To be honest I look on witchcraft in the same way I look on playing with fire or taking drugs.
I look on Christianity in the same way i look on smoking. One person enjoys it and everyone else has to take their crap.

lol chris. well said:thumbsup:

are you a christian graheme:suspect: why would it harm my mentqal health??

You obviously spend a lot of time thinking about witchcraft, and perhaps reading about it and talking to other people about it and all these things influence us, our minds are like a sponge and we absorb so much, and to be honest I'm not sure if it is a good influence? Just my personal opinion that's all, but if you were my daughter I would be worried for you.

why would you be worried for me. i would be more worried if i was a christian, they shag little boys dont they:confused:

why would you be worried for me. i would be more worried if i was a christian, they shag little boys dont they:confused:

That is not a Christian act. If they were Christians they wouldn't do it.

I look on Christianity in the same way i look on smoking. One person enjoys it and everyone else has to take their crap.

Not to mention the crap you and ruth are giving me. It's called debate, I think, but it is more like verbal abuse and you tell me where I have done the same to you, but that's satanists for you. Thank you very much, I love you too.

but that's athiests for you. .

They aren't atheists, they are satanists. I would have thought that, after 10 pages of posts, you would be able to tell the difference.

Waffle Graphame?

Did someone just say there was an echo in here ...

If you want to give these concepts (of wholistic well-being and the relationship between spirit, mind and body) some serious research you may want to start looking here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCM_model_of_the_body
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about (a) how life's experiences mould our character, (b) the things we do as a child for example going to football matches and the music we listen to influence us, (c) being beaten or abused as a child will influence us, (d) someone might walk into the room and say something to upset you, (e) we make decisions about our attitude towards the environment for example and all these things that go off in our mind are independent of our body. Do I make myself clear?

They aren't atheists, they are satanists. I would have thought that, after 10 pages of posts, you would be able to tell the difference.

I know, I thought atheist was a milder insult. :)

I will change it.

That is not a Christian act. If they were Christians they wouldn't do it.
That's a textbook example of the no true Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)fallacy of the sort you have been pulled up on using numerous times in the past.

The paedophile priests in question were obviously Christians as they believe in the Christian god.

I know, I thought atheist was a milder insult. :)

I will change it.
Why on earth would a self confessed Satanist be insulted by you calling him a Satanist?

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about (a) how life's experiences mould our character, (b) the things we do as a child for example going to football matches and the music we listen to influence us, (c) being beaten or abused as a child will influence us, (d) someone might walk into the room and say something to upset you, (e) we make decisions about our attitude towards the environment for example and all these things that go off in our mind are independent of our body. Do I make myself clear?
What complete rubbish the brain isn't independent from the body it's an essential part of it.

Why on earth would a self confessed Satanist be insulted by you calling him a Satanist?

Maybe not, but it is something I wouldn't like to be called, it is a case of do as you would be done by, I suppose.

the brain isn't independent from the body it's an essential part of it.
His isn't.

What complete rubbish the brain isn't independent from the body it's an essential part of it.

I know but the intellectual decisions we make are independent of the body, unless we are deciding what to wear.

Maybe not, but it is something I wouldn't like to be called, it is a case of do as you would be done by, I suppose.
It's more a case of you not being able to conceive that other people might not have the same opinions and feelings as you.

I'd be offended if somebody said I was sexist, homophobic, racist or a Christian I've met people who proudly proclaim that they are all of those things and consequently aren't the least bit offended if others use those terms to describe them, how can you not understand this?

That's a textbook example of the no true Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)fallacy of the sort you have been pulled up on using numerous times in the past.

The paedophile priests in question were obviously Christians as they believe in the Christian god.

A lot of priests who take the cloth do not believe in God. It's a job and they see it as the easier option to social work.

I know but the intellectual decisions we make are independent of the body, unless we are deciding what to wear.
Really? Then why is it that people with sufficiently damaged brains lose the ability to make 'intellectual decisions'?

A lot of priests who take the cloth do not believe in God. It's a job and they see it as the easier option to social work.
Do you realise that you are actually arguing that christians don't sin? Are you not aware that it's a fundamental tenet of christianity that all people are sinners?

Really? Then why is it that people with sufficiently damaged brains lose the ability to make 'intellectual decisions'?

For the same reason Professor Stephen Hawking's can't walk.

If body and brain are working well, they can act independently. Did I really have to say that.

Do you realise that you are actually arguing that christians don't sin? Are you not aware that it's a fundamental tenet of christianity that all people are sinners?

Of course and that applies to everyone unless you try to tell me murderers etc. are not sinners, but what is so wonderful about Christianity is that God, like our earthly father can forgive us our sins. :thumbsup:

For the same reason Professor Dawkins can't walk.
What on earth are you talking about Dawkins is perfectly able to walk.

If body and brain are working well, they can act independently. Did I really have to say that.
Why because you say so? What evidence do you have for this insane claim?

Of course and that applies to everyone unless you try to tell me murderers etc. are not sinners, but what is so wonderful about Christianity is that God, like our earthly father can forgive us our sins. :thumbsup:
So as you now concede that christians by definition are sinners on what grounds to you claim that paedophile priests aren't christians?

Are you for real?

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about (a) how life's experiences mould our character,

Further more, a persons character also moulds their experience of life, it's a two way street.

(b) the things we do as a child for example going to football matches and the music we listen to influence us,

You were talking about things you did as a child?

(c) being beaten or abused as a child will influence us,

I am sure it would.

(d) someone might walk into the room and say something to upset you,

Not much chance of that. I don't think there's much anyone could say that would upset me.

(e) we make decisions about our attitude towards the environment for example and all these things that go off in our mind are independent of our body.

Not at all, our state of mind and even the thoughts we have is linked to our state of physical well being.

Do I make myself clear?

Yes, you're as transparent as glass.

Are you for real?
I certainly am, seeing as you not I are the one claiming Professor Dawkins can't walk, that paedophile priests aren't christians and that the mind is independent of the body maybe you should ask yourself the same quesiton.

plekhanov:

Are you getting the same 'hitting of head against brick wall feeling' that I am?

plekhanov:

Are you getting the same 'hitting of head against brick wall feeling' that I am?

you're not the only one geoffrey to suspect you've got an impacted forehead - grahame works on the market and sells that feeling by the pound to anyone who happens by

As an atheist I personally disagree with Graheme's beliefs & if I could be bothered to read his posts I'd probaly disagree with most his opinions, however I do feel for him especially on this forum as I cannot imagine many others showing determination to defend his beliefs & opinions without resorting to insults or thinking why do I even bother.

What complete rubbish the brain isn't independent from the body it's an essential part of it.

Change brain to mind.

Forget it.

We will. :)

We will. :)

And two years after I join the forum you are still hanging onto my every word. Just read my posts and you will be fine.

And two years after I join the forum you are still reading my posts. It is taking you a long time to forget.


Three broken ribs laughing, one broken leg falling off my chair doing the same plus many broken nails, ................AND one Jimmy Choo heel after trying to smash my PC screen in after some mindless but yet predictable comment from the robot of JC. I am the Anti-Christ, trust me.

Three broken ribs laughing, one broken leg falling off my chair doing the same plus many broken nails, ................AND one Jimmy Choo heel after trying to smash my PC screen in after some mindless but yet predictable comment from the robot of JC. I am the Anti-Christ, trust me.

Just a pussy cat really. :)

Just a pussy cat really. :)

True. Attributes
Tiger people are difficult to resist, for they are magnetic characters and their natural air of authority confers a certain prestige on them. They are tempestuous yet calm, warm-hearted yet fearsome, courageous in the face of danger yet yielding, soft and mysterious in unexpected places. They enjoy a life full of challenges and unexpected events, like visiting unusual places and meeting interesting or outstanding people. Other people in their area are easily attracted by the tiger's enthusiasm and way of life. Tigers find pleasure in the unpredictable, and while other people would rather make a backward step, they are not afraid to explore the new and unusual. But it is not that simple to interest the Tiger. What they really need is first-hand experience. Usually open and frank, these people are likely to withdraw and can be aggressive when trapped. As soon as the Tiger has regained their sense of security their confidence also returns, enabling them to set out once more. These people usually tend to trust their instincts, though there is another side of their personality, which assesses situations thoughtfully before they launch any actions. Their friends usually secretly admire their determination and optimism, though sometimes may find it complicated to share the Tiger's enthusiasm and can be pushed away and left behind. In spite of the fact that Tigers can be courageous and generous friends, if they are not able to achieve what they want, they can be inflexible and self-centered. So if your friend was born in the year of the Tiger, there will be highs and lows in your friendship, but the friendship itself will remain firm.

True. Attributes
Tiger people are difficult to resist, for they are magnetic characters and their natural air of authority confers a certain prestige on them. They are tempestuous yet calm, warm-hearted yet fearsome, courageous in the face of danger yet yielding, soft and mysterious in unexpected places. They enjoy a life full of challenges and unexpected events, like visiting unusual places and meeting interesting or outstanding people. Other people in their area are easily attracted by the tiger's enthusiasm and way of life. Tigers find pleasure in the unpredictable, and while other people would rather make a backward step, they are not afraid to explore the new and unusual. But it is not that simple to interest the Tiger. What they really need is first-hand experience. Usually open and frank, these people are likely to withdraw and can be aggressive when trapped. As soon as the Tiger has regained their sense of security their confidence also returns, enabling them to set out once more. These people usually tend to trust their instincts, though there is another side of their personality, which assesses situations thoughtfully before they launch any actions. Their friends usually secretly admire their determination and optimism, though sometimes may find it complicated to share the Tiger's enthusiasm and can be pushed away and left behind. In spite of the fact that Tigers can be courageous and generous friends, if they are not able to achieve what they want, they can be inflexible and self-centered. So if your friend was born in the year of the Tiger, there will be highs and lows in your friendship, but the friendship itself will remain firm.

Where did you copy & paste that from?

True. Attributes
Tiger people are difficult to resist, for they are magnetic characters and their natural air of authority confers a certain prestige on them. They are tempestuous yet calm, warm-hearted yet fearsome, courageous in the face of danger yet yielding, soft and mysterious in unexpected places. They enjoy a life full of challenges and unexpected events, like visiting unusual places and meeting interesting or outstanding people. Other people in their area are easily attracted by the tiger's enthusiasm and way of life. Tigers find pleasure in the unpredictable, and while other people would rather make a backward step, they are not afraid to explore the new and unusual. But it is not that simple to interest the Tiger. What they really need is first-hand experience. Usually open and frank, these people are likely to withdraw and can be aggressive when trapped. As soon as the Tiger has regained their sense of security their confidence also returns, enabling them to set out once more. These people usually tend to trust their instincts, though there is another side of their personality, which assesses situations thoughtfully before they launch any actions. Their friends usually secretly admire their determination and optimism, though sometimes may find it complicated to share the Tiger's enthusiasm and can be pushed away and left behind. In spite of the fact that Tigers can be courageous and generous friends, if they are not able to achieve what they want, they can be inflexible and self-centered. So if your friend was born in the year of the Tiger, there will be highs and lows in your friendship, but the friendship itself will remain firm.

From the sound of it Tigers are well rounded, balanced and capable people who need to be treated with respect.

I do. I do.

Promise. :)

Where did you copy & paste that from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_%28Zodiac%29

From the sound of it Tigers are well rounded, balanced and capable people who need to be treated with respect.

I do. I do.

Promise. :)

Characteristics:
Short-tempered
Suspicious
Adventurous
Sensitive
Emotional
Risk-taking

Characteristics:
Short-tempered
Suspicious
Adventurous
Sensitive
Emotional
Risk-taking

A bit like walking on ice? But with good understanding, sensitivity, and support any Tiger can be tamed. :thumbsup:

A bit like walking on ice? But with good understanding, sensitivity, and support any Tiger can be tamed. :thumbsup:

Dream on. :thumbsup:

The Monkey is the most versatile sign of the Chinese zodiac. Such people are often inventors, plotters, entertainers and the creative geniuses behind anything ingenious, including mischief. They have natural quick-wittedness which enables them to understand what is happening and then make a right decision. Even during a conversation a person born in this year is aware of what is going on around him/her, and then makes a mental note of who said what and stores it away for future reference. In general, with their agile minds and multiple talents, monkey type of people can master any subject. They are reliable and honest people so that any secret is safe in their hands. These people are also honest in their dealings. Monkey people are very good at problem-solving. Monkeys know how to listen closely and work out solutions at the same time.

Although these people are trustworthy and unlikely to hurt someone out of spite, they would never let people escape if they have behaved badly or damaged a monkey's reputation. Their stamina and determination to achieve their main goals can make these people appear vain or manipulative. It means that people born under this sign should be careful so they do not damage their friendships. It is important to remember for these persons that it would be wiser sometimes not to pursue their goals and simply let things pass.

Monkeys have flexible principles and serene self-confidence so they are completely content; but they usually manage to complicate the lives of others. After yet another plan or project has gone wrong, they are seldom there to help clean up the disorder and confusion that they leave in their wake. Monkeys can handle that too; with their charm and persuasiveness they can make people believe that just knowing them is a privilege.

Change brain to mind.
What difference would that make to anything?

And two years after I join the forum you are still hanging onto my every word. Just read my posts and you will be fine.

Bad news dear http://www.geomancy.net/astrology/areference/ctimo.htm

As an atheist I personally disagree with Graheme's beliefs & if I could be bothered to read his posts I'd probaly disagree with most his opinions, however I do feel for him especially on this forum as I cannot imagine many others showing determination to defend his beliefs & opinions without resorting to insults or thinking why do I even bother.
I fail to see anything admirable in stubbornly holding erroneous opinions when presented with good evidence that you are wrong. I respect people who deal with reality honestly and when they find evidence that they are wrong change their views accordingly. There's nothing admirable in sticking your head in the sand and mindlessly repeating the same old discredited rubbish.

As for 'without resorting to insults' Grahame frequently insults me and in one thread even took to calling me 'the Jew' in a bizarre case of misdirected anti-Semitism, not only that he has tried to get me banned from the forum which is about as rude as it's possible to be on an internet forum.

Bad news dear http://www.geomancy.net/astrology/areference/ctimo.htm

Oh what a shame. (Big crocodile tears) Runs away laughing. :D

What difference would that make to anything?

OK, the brain is a physical organ. That doesn’t need to be said and I thought it would be taken as read, but you always seem to take a very literal approach.

I work among people with learning difficulties and believe you me; they each have their own personality as complex as yours and mine. Others, who I meet, are physically handicapped but their brains are as active as anyone else’s. (Someone who may be physically paralysed can still have an active brain.) That is what I meant when I said the brain (electrical activity) works independently of the body.

From there we take a further step forward and realise it is our thoughts, ideas, prejudices, and our likes and dislikes etc. that make us the person we are.

If you cannot understand and accept this then there is little point in pursuing the conversation.

OK, the brain is a physical organ. That doesn’t need to be said and I thought it would be taken as read, but you always seem to take a very literal approach.

I work among people with learning difficulties and believe you me; they each have their own personality as complex as yours and mine. Others, who I meet, are physically handicapped but their brains are as active as anyone else’s. (Someone who may be physically paralysed can still have an active brain.) That is what I meant when I said the brain (electrical activity) works independently of the body.

From there we take a further step forward and realise it is our thoughts, ideas, prejudices, and our likes and dislikes etc. that make us the person we are.

If you cannot understand and accept this then there is little point in pursuing the conversation.
The brain is part of the body how can it possibly be separate from something it's an intrinsic part of?

Your earlier claim that:

"Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies."

Which you are currently flailing around trying to justify is rooted in the christian hatred of the physical world in general and the human body and sex in particular, it has no basis in reality though. The 'spirit', 'mind''... whatever you want to call it is simply a name we give to what the brain does, there is no evidence that any of the things you mention exist anywhere but in the body.

The brain is part of the body how can it possibly be separate from something it's an intrinsic part of?

Your earlier claim that:

"Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies."

Which you are currently flailing around trying to justify is rooted in the christian hatred of the physical world in general and the human body and sex in particular, it has no basis in reality though. The 'spirit', 'mind''... whatever you want to call it is simply a name we give to what the brain does, there is no evidence that any of the things you mention exist anywhere but in the body.

End of conversation. Goodbye.

graheme i admire you for your honourable but sadly misplaced faith, i agree that this debate should not be a slanging match butyou yourself have caised some of it by calling me a satanist...I AM WICCAN..... sorry to dissapoint you cos i can almost feel you waiting with the holy water to cleanse my evil soul.... make my day x

The brain is part of the body how can it possibly be separate from something it's an intrinsic part of?

Your earlier claim that:

"Personality, intellect, intelligence, emotion, love, hate, etc. are spiritual qualities which are separate from our physical bodies."

Which you are currently flailing around trying to justify is rooted in the christian hatred of the physical world in general and the human body and sex in particular, it has no basis in reality though. The 'spirit', 'mind''... whatever you want to call it is simply a name we give to what the brain does, there is no evidence that any of the things you mention exist anywhere but in the body.

Look, I will have one more go.

I am talking about the here and now you great big plonker. If you want to talk about the afterlife then you need to go here.

“Scientists now believe there may really be a parallel universe - in fact, there may be an infinite number of parallel universes, and we just happen to live in one of them. These other universes contain space, time and strange forms of exotic matter. Some of them may even contain you, in a slightly different form. Astonishingly, scientists believe that these parallel universes exist less than one millimetre away from us.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/paralleluni.shtml

graheme i admire you for your honourable but sadly misplaced faith, i agree that this debate should not be a slanging match butyou yourself have caised some of it by calling me a satanist...I AM WICCAN..... sorry to dissapoint you cos i can almost feel you waiting with the holy water to cleanse my evil soul.... make my day x

Hi, I don't want to spoil your day, I come in peace even if you don't believe me. The thing is I have come into contact with some pretty awful people who practise Wicca. Three of them formed a society called V.A.T. It stands for Violence Anarchy and Terror. One of the three ringleaders kills cats for sacrificial sacrifice and when he is finished with them he returns the mutilated bodies and leaves the corpse either on the road or on the owners doorstep, for it to be found next morning. It sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it.

Here is his own web site, so naturally he will paint a good picture of himself, but have a careful read of it and let me know what you think.

http://www.davidfarrant.org/index.html

Grahame, that is awful and no wonder you think some pretty nasty stuff about Wiccans, and us Pagans BUT that is not the norm. these people are sick minded individuals just as most Christians are not child molesting perverts. there is always going to be the odd idiots in what ever faith one chooses to talk about but all the people cannot be tarred with the same brush.
I beleive in peace and love, i use herbs and oils not only for magickal use but for medicinal too. I love nature and animals. I beleive also that any person has the rights to beleive in anything that makes them happy and doesnt harm another. WHY do people still choose to beleive i could slaughter chickens ( alot of it has been said tongue in cheek but im sure some poeple actually truelly beleive that) When i used to have my Pagan community centre anyone was welcome in it and people from alot of different faiths DID come, even the vicar from the darnall church came.

Debating is fine and i love a heated debate, but when it goes over into insulting like many posts on this thread have then there is no point in debate as peoples minds just get closed even tighter just to defend their own arguments.

Come on people :::: group hug :::: lets keep up the friendly debate :thumbsup:

graheme i am absolutly discusted in what i have just read and let me reassure you that wiccan people or should i say true wiccan people are nothing like what you have discribed.... i find it really sad that these people exist

Grahame, that is awful and no wonder you think some pretty nasty stuff about Wiccans, and us Pagans BUT that is not the norm. these people are sick minded individuals just as most Christians are not child molesting perverts. there is always going to be the odd idiots in what ever faith one chooses to talk about but all the people cannot be tarred with the same brush.
I beleive in peace and love, i use herbs and oils not only for magickal use but for medicinal too. I love nature and animals. I beleive also that any person has the rights to beleive in anything that makes them happy and doesnt harm another. WHY do people still choose to beleive i could slaughter chickens ( alot of it has been said tongue in cheek but im sure some poeple actually truelly beleive that) When i used to have my Pagan community centre anyone was welcome in it and people from alot of different faiths DID come, even the vicar from the darnall church came.

Debating is fine and i love a heated debate, but when it goes over into insulting like many posts on this thread have then there is no point in debate as peoples minds just get closed even tighter just to defend their own arguments.

Come on people :::: group hug :::: lets keep up the friendly debate :thumbsup:

I love nature as well, and I know you would never do anything like that, and I know someone will laugh at me, but I feel you are a good person and that you only want the best for people and want to help them.

I said just now that I love nature which I do and that is the romantic side of me, but I have also seen nature at its worst and we can think of the devastation that nature can cause. The earthquakes, the hurricanes, the tsunami, people who have died in snow blizzards while out walking on Kinder or Dartmoor, sailors who have died at sea during storms and I could go on. Nature is a fearsome thing and of course there is death as well. I feel you have your rose tinted spectacles on and up till now you haven't seen the other side. Let me tell you it isn't nice. I do believe in good and evil and the things I have heard make me think there are some pretty malevolent spirits out there and I only wish you would keep well away if only for your own health and peace of mind. As I say, I come in love and peace, but that is for you to make up your own mind about and obviously you will take against me because I don't share the same view as you, but please I beg of you to be careful.

Yours,

Graham.