It comes as no surprise that the forces are institutionally racist but the individual acts of racism described here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6425529.stm) and elsewhere set me thinking.

Are racists naturally attracted to the armed forces or do people turn that way after they have joined up?

This comes as no surprise what with all the bullying going on etc. I think the Army attracts a certain kind of person in most cases, but there is also a culture within that turns a blind eye to the real issues.

It comes as no surprise that the forces are institutionally racist but the individual acts of racism described here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6425529.stm) and elsewhere set me thinking.



Care to explain why it comes as no suprise that the forces are, (as YOU say) "Istitutionally Racist?" Have you ever served in the Armed forces? Thats an incredibly stupid, ignorant assumption to make if you have no proof or first hand knowledge.
Are racists naturally attracted to the armed forces or do people turn that way after they have joined up?
Again, where is your proof? Some BBC Article quoting one serving soldier??? And you take his statement as gospel do you?
The people who serve in our armed forces look after each other like brothers no matter what colour of their skin and for you to suggest that there are proportionally more racists in the forces than in any other walk of life is again Insulting and Ignorant. If you can provide me with sources for your information then I will gladly read them, however speaking from first hand experience, your comments are frankly ridiculous.

The Ministry of Defence said there was no evidence of endemic racism in the Army and special provision was offered to the 6,000 Commonwealth soldiers.

You conveniently forgot this as well LibertyBell

Can't see the link myself. Racists tend to be aggressive, poorly-educated thuggish bullies, whereas soldiers....oh, er hang on.......

Care to explain why it comes as no suprise that the forces are, (as YOU say) "Istitutionally Racist?" Have you ever served in the Armed forces? Thats an incredibly stupid, ignorant assumption to make if you have no proof or first hand knowledge.

Again, where is your proof? Some BBC Article quoting one serving soldier??? And you take his statement as gospel do you?
The people who serve in our armed forces look after each other like brothers no matter what colour of their skin and for you to suggest that there are proportionally more racists in the forces than in any other walk of life is again Insulting and Ignorant. If you can provide me with sources for your information then I will gladly read them, however speaking from first hand experience, your comments are frankly ridiculous.

No offence, but if you believe that all service personnel look out for each other then you really are naive. Apart from the bullying stuff that usually does the rounds on the news where you hear of service personnel kicking seven shades of poo out of the 'weaker' members of their own regiment, I have heard stories of people being beaten to a pulp just for serving in a different regiment. If they are prepared to do this to their fellow countrymen, then I would hate to see what sort of reception the commonwealth troops receive. Anyway, before you say it, yes I am a serviceman and am aware of the things that happen.

Care to explain why it comes as no suprise that the forces are, (as YOU say) "Istitutionally Racist?" Have you ever served in the Armed forces? Thats an incredibly stupid, ignorant assumption to make if you have no proof or first hand knowledge.
from first hand experience, your comments are frankly ridiculous.

I have, but I left 20 years ago. The Army at that time was certaintly a racist and homophobic institution. I had reasonably expected that it would have changed since then.

I left the forces less than 1 year ago and my 9 years service saw me work along side people from all walks of life.

Never once did I witness any kind of racial abuse. it would not be tollerated and the offending person would almost certainly be sent to colchester and discharged without question.

Maybe you should bring this topic up here www.arrse.co.uk

I left the forces less than 1 year ago and my 9 years service saw me work along side people from all walks of life.

Never once did I witness any kind of racial abuse. it would not be tollerated and the offending person would almost certainly be sent to colchester and discharged without question.

Maybe you should bring this topic up here www.arrse.co.uk

Thats good to hear. Do you think that the current reports are accurate and but that they relate to certain parts of the Army or are they cobblers?

Apart from the bullying stuff that usually does the rounds on the news where you hear of service personnel kicking seven shades of poo out of the 'weaker' members of their own regiment,

Int thaqt called milling?, and in it designed to toughen up the troops after all if u can kick 10 bells outta a mate u can do it to anyone

Apart from the bullying stuff that usually does the rounds on the news where you hear of service personnel kicking seven shades of poo out of the 'weaker' members of their own regiment,

Int thaqt called milling?, and in it designed to toughen up the troops after all if u can kick 10 bells outta a mate u can do it to anyone

I think you are mixing up two quite different things. Milling is a bit like boxing (with gloves) except that you stand face to face and belt each other. I can't say I used to enjoy it but it wasn't dangerous and wasn't bullying. We were paired up by height in a random selection and nobosy received more than a cut lip.

It comes as no surprise that the forces are institutionally racist but the individual acts of racism described here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6425529.stm) and elsewhere set me thinking.

Are racists naturally attracted to the armed forces or do people turn that way after they have joined up?

The alleged experiences of one person certainly don't prove our armed forces are institutionally racist.

Racism is a form of prejudice and prejudice is just what you are showing towards our armed services personnel with your sweeping statements. Why is your form of negative stereotyping any more valid than negative stereotyping based on race? :huh: :suspect: :huh:

We were paired up by height in a random selection and nobosy received more than a cut lip.

What was the point of that then ?
To be able to give the enemy a cut lip ?

What was the point of that then ?
To be able to give the enemy a cut lip ?

I should point out to start with that I don't necessarily think there was any point to it, I am just reporting what happened. I think they would say that they were getting us toughened up and that we had to do something violent without question. I may be wrong and they may just have wanted to watch us beat the hell out of each other.

What was the point of that then ?
To be able to give the enemy a cut lip ?
No it was to provide the Ruperts, who were watching, with a little light entertainment.

No offence, but if you believe that all service personnel look out for each other then you really are naive. Apart from the bullying stuff that usually does the rounds on the news where you hear of service personnel kicking seven shades of poo out of the 'weaker' members of their own regiment, I have heard stories of people being beaten to a pulp just for serving in a different regiment. If they are prepared to do this to their fellow countrymen, then I would hate to see what sort of reception the commonwealth troops receive. Anyway, before you say it, yes I am a serviceman and am aware of the things that happen.

None taken..... I just dont agree with you :)

Thats true, bullying goes on. But its not common, despite what the media and others would have us belive. Cases of bullying are dealt with swiftly and offenders are (rightly) dealt with very harshly. Especially if there is any evidence of Racism. The usual punishment in these cases are a spell over the wall (HMP Colchester) and Discharge Services No Longer Required.

But usually race has nothing to do with cases of bullying. If someone is being bullied it is generally not because of the colour of their skin. If someone of an ethnic minority is bullied, or passed over for promotion, it doesn't automatically mean that race is involved.

The issue I have is with ignorant people with very little or no experience of the armed forces making assumptions that they are institutionally racist, and that people who join the forces are either racist from day one, or are slowly turned. The reality is so much different.
And to suggest otherwise is just as prejudice as the alleged racists that certain members of this forum are so quick to condemn

None taken..... I just dont agree with you :)

Thats true, bullying goes on. But its not common, despite what the media and others would have us belive. Cases of bullying are dealt with swiftly and offenders are (rightly) dealt with very harshly. Especially if there is any evidence of Racism. The usual punishment in these cases are a spell over the wall (HMP Colchester) and Discharge Services No Longer Required.

But usually race has nothing to do with cases of bullying. If someone is being bullied it is generally not because of the colour of their skin. If someone of an ethnic minority is bullied, or passed over for promotion, it doesn't automatically mean that race is involved.

The issue I have is with ignorant people with very little or no experience of the armed forces making assumptions that they are institutionally racist, and that people who join the forces are either racist from day one, or are slowly turned. The reality is so much different.
And to suggest otherwise is just as prejudice as the alleged racists that certain members of this forum are so quick to condemn

Believe me, the violence between squaddies is far more common than you expect. The base where I serve have to resorted to serving beer in plastic cups in fear of the squaddies glassing each other and it got that bad that the chief had to issue a finally warning to everyone. I believe it is the actions of a minority that create these problems and you will get this sort of thing in all walks of life, like you will also get homophobia and racism. While I agree that the actions of a few doesn't make an institution racist, but you have to question this if there are complaints and no action is taken to protect the people who complain.

Believe me, the violence between squaddies is far more common than you expect. The base where I serve have to resorted to serving beer in plastic cups in fear of the squaddies glassing each other and it got that bad that the chief had to issue a finally warning to everyone. I believe it is the actions of a minority that create these problems and you will get this sort of thing in all walks of life, like you will also get homophobia and racism. While I agree that the actions of a few doesn't make an institution racist, but you have to question this if there are complaints and no action is taken to protect the people who complain.

I think this is where our experiences differ.
All allegations of racism/discrimination ive ever heard of have always been dealt with swiftly and to the satisfaction of the complainant.
You have to remember though that if someone makes a complaint it doesnt always mean that they actually have a valid point. Perhaps this guy who is moaning to the BBC has been passed over for a course cos hes a numpty or something, or perhaps he's always in trouble and therefore doesnt deserve to be put on that course. We shouldnt assume that because someone is non-white then any decision that goes against them is racially motivated, although I agree that all cases must be investigated properly.

Answer me this, being in the Army(?) have you ever known of somebody to have been disadvantaged by their superiors simply because of the colour of their skin?


I do know what you mean though about the plastic cups in the bar, when i was at Mount Pleasant (nothing pleasant about it though lol) we had the same rule because it was a tri-service environment (always good fun) and fights did break out on a fairly regular basis. But this isnt bullying, its just lads getting all fired up and having a bit of a barney. Next day everyone is mates again. There will always be inter-service/inter-regiment/inter-ship/inter-whatever rivalry, in fact its a good thing because it shows people are proud of their unit and their service.

Care to explain why it comes as no suprise that the forces are, (as YOU say) "Istitutionally Racist?" Have you ever served in the Armed forces? Thats an incredibly stupid, ignorant assumption to make if you have no proof or first hand knowledge.

Again, where is your proof? Some BBC Article quoting one serving soldier??? And you take his statement as gospel do you?
The people who serve in our armed forces look after each other like brothers no matter what colour of their skin and for you to suggest that there are proportionally more racists in the forces than in any other walk of life is again Insulting and Ignorant. If you can provide me with sources for your information then I will gladly read them, however speaking from first hand experience, your comments are frankly ridiculous.

My service record (or lack of it) is of no concern in this argument.

Of course it's institutionally racist. Massive organisations run by white men usually are. Macpherson commented about this but you can do a google search if you want exact citations.

I don't doubt that soldiers look out for each other in action. That's not what this is about. This is about horrendous, vile stinking racism and an organisation in denial.

You conveniently forgot this as well LibertyBell

I didn't forget it, I posted a link to it.

Of course it's institutionally racist. Massive organisations run by white men usually are. Macpherson commented about this but you can do a google search if you want exact citations.


So white men running large organisations are usually racists? If that isn't a sweeping racist statement then I don't know what is!

Massive organisations run by white men usually are.



Can you not see how hypocritical you're being?

You are labelling something because of the colour of its skin. How can you not see how ridiculous you sound?


Shall we ask Pte Beharry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beharry) (A Grenada National and Commonwealth Soldier who deservedly won this nations highest accolade) if the Army is as you so knowledgeably put it, "institutionally rasict?"
Or we could maybe speak to the (ex) Commedore of HMNB Portsmouth, one of this countrys biggest military bases, RADM Amjad Hussein? The only reason why he is the ex- Commodore is because he has just been promoted to Admiral. Mr Hussein, on promotion actually wrote an article for a defence journal about his promotion through the ranks. He said that never once was his race ever an issue or factor for him or his superiors. (I have searched for this on the net but unfortunatly cannot find it although I hope you take my word for it.) These are just two high profile cases, there are countless more.
I dont like to use these arguments because its not fair to use a persons race in cases like this, people win promotions and awards on MERIT and ABILITY. The only person who is prejudice and cant see that here is you.

And before someone says that some Ruperts get promotions because Daddy was a General, yes of course that does go on, my point is that no matter where you are born, no matter what colour your skin is in todays Armed Forces, if you are good enough, you will achive. The Forces have moved on from the past decades, perhaps you should as well LibertyBell. Its as simple as that.

Interesting to see the tory MP sacked for his comments about people being singled out for their differences i.e ginger,fat or black.

I served i the Army through the 80's..Infantry...Was it a tough life...YES...did i have to put with it NO i didnt,but i choose that way of life..it wasnt choosen for me...Did i enjoy my time in the forces..YES..and NO....

i think that also there is loyalty to your regiment as well...thats where people tended to sort out stuff in a way that would not go down well in todays sociaty..If you had an issue with a soldier of same rank..you went round the back and sorted between you 2 with an nco there to stop things getting out of hand so to speak..then that was it..move on....

Did i witness rascism..well no i didnt..bullying...only now and again...and i think things have vasly improved since my time...

But also..i know the standard of soldiering had dropped as well.
it was aparent to me that in the late 80's we were getting so called fit young lads who had just passsed out..who couldnt pass a bft then...I hope that standards have improved in that time since i left....

jt