my daughter goes to a school which as a very large asian population i knew this before she went as my eldest daughter also went to this school,no problems with it at all very good school,anyway ive asked if she could have permission to take a holiday in the school term,i was told by law if she has anymore than 10 days off during school time i am breaking the law......unless.......she is going abroad to visit relatives in which case she can have 4 months off...also she can't wear a long sleeve shirt for P.E. not unless she's a muslim,niow before the anti rascist mob have a go at me i'm only stating what i think is out of order my daughter should be able to wear a long sleeve shirt when its cold whats being muslim got to do with owt.

It's not racism as they are not persecuting your daughter due to her race. They are however giving differeing treament to members of one religon which is something I deplore.

As I have said before on another thread - I subsribe to the french model where a school is there to teach and all religon is removed from the equation and its pupils treated equally.

Different treatment according to religion has been going on for ever, it seems. I went to a grammar school in the 60's and, as I was a catholic, I was exempt from RE as were others who were non CofE. We started up a drama group to fill the idle hours and the CofE kids complained that it wasn't fair, treating them differently because of their religion.

Life sucks, basically.

Originally posted by max
Different treatment according to religion has been going on for ever, it seems. I went to a grammar school in the 60's and, as I was a catholic, I was exempt from RE as were others who were non CofE. We started up a drama group to fill the idle hours and the CofE kids complained that it wasn't fair, treating them differently because of their religion.

Life sucks, basically.
how come catholics don't do R.E.:confused: :confused: :confused:

the thing about time off sounds reasonable, it used to be at parents discretion, but now requires the schools permission (although i think they might be exaggerating to say that you'd be breaking the law, that would only be the case if they refused permission).

it does seem odd though to set a rule (no long sleeves) and then to allow one specific religion a waiver on that rule. Surely it would be fairer to set the rule to allow long sleeves if desired...

It also seems like a slightly perverse rule given the weather we have in this country, why don't you ask the school to justify the rule and see what they come up with?

Originally posted by kirky
how come catholics don't do R.E.:confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm sure it's not true now, I stand to be corrected, but priests then were of the opinion that they were only ones qualified to teach anything about religion to fellow catholics. :confused:

Our parents were advised not to allow us to attend the anti-christ teachings of the un-believers. :o

Originally posted by Cyclone

It also seems like a slightly perverse rule given the weather we have in this country, why don't you ask the school to justify the rule and see what they come up with?

Ask them why we had to play cricket in trousers and jumpers in the summer and football in shorts in the winter while you're at it. :rant:

Seems to me your daughter is being discriminated against as the rules contradict fairness and equality. I wouldn't say it's racist though. Unfotunately it is this sort of discrimination which promotes racism and the Planks who make these rules can't see it!

sorry but this seems stupid to me. If there are only 10 days holiday allowed by law then there are 10 days allowed by law.
My conciounce could accept deathly ill and dying relatives as exceptions but nothing else.
There are 6 weeks available in which to make a long journey to see relatives overseas, now if my family can manage that on a trip to see relatives in Oz then I do not see why anyone else cannot. :rant:

The long sleeves thing is first class idiotic as has been mentioned with the weather...I would query that as I am not sure the school can put a childs health at risk by disallowing proper clothing for a lesson.

Moon

Originally posted by max
Different treatment according to religion has been going on for ever, it seems. I went to a grammar school in the 60's and, as I was a catholic, I was exempt from RE as were others who were non CofE. We started up a drama group to fill the idle hours and the CofE kids complained that it wasn't fair, treating them differently because of their religion.

Life sucks, basically.

I wish I had gone to your school, I'm not remotely religious but I still had to do RE, and hated every minute of it. If I'd known I would have claimed to be Catholic.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden

There are 6 weeks available in which to make a long journey to see relatives overseas, now if my family can manage that on a trip to see relatives in Oz then I do not see why anyone else cannot. :rant:



i totally agree so why can certain prople take 4 months off and others can't have 10 days off. surley people living in the same country going to the same school should be treat the same.

I was under the impression that the LEA were clamping down on children being taken out of school to go on extended visits to relatives etc.

I hope this is true, I have just had to jump through hoops to get one day off school for my son to go on holiday with his grandparents. :mad:

Originally posted by beckb
I was under the impression that the LEA were clamping down on children being taken out of school to go on extended visits to relatives etc.

I hope this is true, I have just had to jump through hoops to get one day off school for my son to go on holiday with his grandparents. :mad:

lol i can imagine that,

on the school field....go on jum through this one and then next and maybe we'll think about it

Whoever told you kids could have 4 months off to visit relatives abroad was pulling your chain, so of course your daughter has not been subjected to any form of racism.

Theres no doubt that catering for different cultures in a school environment is going to raise talking points. Making the rules the same for everyone will cause problems for people that have family restrictions so I think there has to be flexibilty in any system.

I was taught in a school with a high population from ethnic backgrounds and must say that my education did suffer because of it. The children being away for several months and having to catch up and the non english speaking kids just slowed us all down.

The PT instructors should be aware of the children roles to become effective team players and encourage this by giving everyone the same standard of clothing.

Originally posted by Toby
Whoever told you kids could have 4 months off to visit relatives abroad was pulling your chain, so of course your daughter has not been subjected to any form of racism. i'll remember to call her head of year a lying git then, at the next parents evening:rolleyes:

Kirky, you should raise the issues of fairness and equality with this Head of Year. In fact raise it with your local councillor if this person won't listen.
Your daughter is being discriminated against.
Hadron makes the point that making the rules for everyone causes problems. The flexible attitude which is promoted results in problems ie. in discrimination and because of the religious dimension promotes the case and arguments of racist groups.
Tell this Head that the policy is recruiting propaganda for the BNP!

Getting time out of school is not normally a problem - my daughters had two weeks off for the last two years from her school - you fill in the form and submit it in good time and its not a problem - the form consists of 3 questions - who, when and why?

I would suppose that if your child (I'm not saying they do) has a poor attendance record they'd be less likely to grant it. Suggest to the school, that they'll be left alone at home otherwise - I'm sure they'll change their mind.

The girl with the long sleeves issue is being discriminated against on religious grounds - which is probably now an offence with the recent law changes.

i don't think she is. She doesn't have to wear short sleaves because of her race or religion, it's a positive discrimation in favour of the muslims.

And schools are being strongly discouraged from allowing children to take extra time off simply to save their parents some money by getting an earlier holiday.

If you said you were going to leave the children at home I expect that they'd threaten to report you for child abuse.

Wasn't there a discussion about whether discrimination on the grounds of religion was racist?

It can't really be, as religion is non-race dependent - however, it is discriminatory and as such theoretically is not allowed.

Theory and practise rarely come together - in theory it is possible to be non discriminatory, but it is an inherent part of the human psyche, and as soon as you try not to be discriminatory, you are discriminating against those you perviously would have discriminated in favour of... if you understand what I mean.

Race is another thing... what is a race? Species, I understand, but as race is a human, subjective term, then different people (including the law) understand it differently.


Litotes

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
sorry but this seems stupid to me. If there are only 10 days holiday allowed by law then there are 10 days allowed by law.
My conciounce could accept deathly ill and dying relatives as exceptions but nothing else.
There are 6 weeks available in which to make a long journey to see relatives overseas, now if my family can manage that on a trip to see relatives in Oz then I do not see why anyone else cannot. :rant:

The long sleeves thing is first class idiotic as has been mentioned with the weather...I would query that as I am not sure the school can put a childs health at risk by disallowing proper clothing for a lesson.

Moon

Ramadan is a very significant islamic event that moves backwards slowly through the calander - it could be an entire childhood befrore it fell within the summer break - it is probably so that an islamic child could experience at least one Ramadan with close relatives.

but as for jeneral hoidays then yes i agree they should be taken (during school holidays) & there are enough of them to chose from, it dont have to be the expensive 6 weeks!

as for the long sleave thing

they're taking into account religion...but not taking into account personal wellbeing? if you are cold, you need to wear more clothes. i can see why she thinks its unfair.

Originally posted by kirky
how come catholics don't do R.E.:confused: :confused: :confused: how can you improve on a religion that has been going for 2000years.....the protestants make it up as they go along after only around 500 years,cant get a divorce, im a king ill alter this,,,laughable.......by the way im agnostic,just like to read history

Kirky

This is just the thin end of a long and divisive wedge being driven into society throughout those parts of western Europe with significant Muslim populations.

It can only get worse as members of the minority ethnic/religious communities increase their share of the electoral registers and politicians have to make further concessions to get elected.

At the moment in France there is quite a battle raging over Muslim head-dress in schools; the French govt. is trying to stand firm on the issue but I'll bet that in five years time Muslim children will be wearing what they please to school in France....because their parents' votes will matter more than long held principles of equality, to the politicians who wish to get (or stay) elected to their nice cushy well paid positions.

Sadly the only politically motivated groups that are prepared to face up to the situation are a bunch of latter-day neo-nazi extremists. It will need an awareness by the main stream political parties to the fifth column in our midst, but it will be too late because before long even mentioning the subject will be deemed racist or religiously discriminatory and probably illegal.

Originally posted by SaxonLeigh
Ramadan is a very significant islamic event that moves backwards slowly through the calander - it could be an entire childhood befrore it fell within the summer break - it is probably so that an islamic child could experience at least one Ramadan with close relatives.


I do believe there are different rules for religious holidays, but ramadan is a month long festival isn't it...that is only a minimum 4 weeks not four months!

Kirky...I think the phrase you are looking for is religious discrimination not racism.

Moon

Yeah, but it's untrue.

That's the problem with threads like this. Kirky has heard from an unreliable source that muslim kids can have four months off school, so comes on a website asking whether we believe it's right that his daughter should be discriminated against. Almost immediately, there are responses along the lines of "one rule for them, another rule for us", and some bluster about new French laws which is equally ill informed. By just posting things you've heard Kirky, instead of actually checking whether they are true, you only help perpetuate the myths that the far right would have us believe.

Originally posted by Greybeard
Kirky

Sadly the only politically motivated groups that are prepared to face up to the situation are a bunch of latter-day neo-nazi extremists. It will need an awareness by the main stream political parties to the fifth column in our midst, but it will be too late because before long even mentioning the subject will be deemed racist or religiously discriminatory and probably illegal.

I think that you will find that it's the patriotic people here that are prepared to stand up to situation.
However!! If you are patriotic....you are considered to be a neo-nazi!!!

Makes you think how things have changed.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by beckb
[B]I was under the impression that the LEA were clamping down on children being taken out of school to go on extended visits to relatives etc.

They are but in order to get round this they are building a school (at uk taxpayers expense) in Bangladesh (i think its there) for children to attend while they are out there (why they cant go out during the 6 week holiday is beyond me)n and why 4 months?

Unfortunately it would appear that your daughter is a victim of social discrimination - i f she is not allowed to wear thigns on religious grounds say you belong to a cult that has to wear these clothes or the god of popcorn will strike her down (silly - i think not as it would be your belief and because only you believe in it does not make it any less important than islam, christianity, buddhism or any other religion if it is what you believe in.)

but then again all religon is about blaming someone else and not accepting that you are responsible for your own actions and adherement to law.

Believe in yourself - you are the only one who can do something about it!

as the human torch used to say in the fantastic 4. Flame on!

taking the word of a teacher from the school involved doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. They should be afterall an authority on the subject.

Can anyone give us a link to some hard facts regarding this school abroad, 4 months off, etc....

Originally posted by Toby
Yeah, but it's untrue.

That's the problem with threads like this. Kirky has heard from an unreliable source that muslim kids can have four months off school, so comes on a website asking whether we believe it's right that his daughter should be discriminated against. Almost immediately, there are responses along the lines of "one rule for them, another rule for us", and some bluster about new French laws which is equally ill informed. By just posting things you've heard Kirky, instead of actually checking whether they are true, you only help perpetuate the myths that the far right would have us believe.

had a look under sheffield city council education website.

it is up to the headmaster and school governers to authorise any holidays during school term time and the parents need to request this in good notice.

One of the criteria allowed is for day (singular) of religous acknowledgement.

So it is up to the indivdual schools to decide wether pupils can have days off regardless of their religion.

I know that if i was a head of school and someone came to me and said that they wanted to pull their child out for 4 months from a school year that only last 8 anyway (minus holidays) then i know what my answer would be. take them in the holidays you have 10 days to tag on the start/end which gives you 2 months off. If you are going to see relatives then only paying for travel so the higher holiday prices dont come into matter and if it isnt for religious reasons then why are you going anyway?????

My family are 2nd generation welsh but i never went there for more than a week...

Originally posted by Toby
Yeah, but it's untrue.

That's the problem with threads like this. Kirky has heard from an unreliable source that muslim kids can have four months off school, so comes on a website asking whether we believe it's right that his daughter should be discriminated against. Almost immediately, there are responses along the lines of "one rule for them, another rule for us", and some bluster about new French laws which is equally ill informed. By just posting things you've heard Kirky, instead of actually checking whether they are true, you only help perpetuate the myths that the far right would have us believe.

how the **** would you know i heard from an unreliable source you plank:rolleyes:

Tell you what Toby since you seem all criticising - could you please inform us at to what the correct legislation is, im sure we would all appriciate your vast legal knowledge on the situation.

Oh and that is a genuine question not a smart ass remark, if you know something then tell us.

Originally posted by Toby
.....and some bluster about new French laws which is equally ill informed.

Just what in my comment about the situation in France do you consider to be ill-informed bluster ?

It has nothing to do with new law, but a lot to do with a section of the Muslim community there seeking to ignore an old established law designed to maintain secularity in education and thus avoid religious discrimination and the inevitable conflict this leads to.

Immigrant communities who find the laws of their host countries difficult to live by should seek to win concessions by democratic means, - not by overt defiance of them.

Where concessions are won then they should be applied with equality, so that if Muslim children are allowed to wear a long-sleeved version of an item of school uniform then all children should be allowed the same concession. Otherwise we end up with a Muslim uniform and a non-Muslim one. 'Uniform' means uniform does it not ?

And I am far from being "far right". A middle England conservative with a small 'c' perhaps, - a former member of the silent majority becoming increasingly irritated at being trampled on by loud-voiced pushy minorities, and the spineless politicians who are so ready to accomodate them.

Originally posted by sheffbag

My family are 2nd generation welsh but i never went there for more than a week...

Yeah...well it does rain a lot in Wales :heyhey:

Originally posted by DerekH
I think that you will find that it's the patriotic people here that are prepared to stand up to situation.
However!! If you are patriotic....you are considered to be a neo-nazi!!!

Makes you think how things have changed.......

I suspect your kind of patriotism is what Samuel Johnson had in mind. :suspect:

[snip]

A line of smilies isn't a post.

it is a relatively recent law passed in france that no overtly religous symbols should be displayed by staff or students in state run schools.

If a British family emigrated to Australia, I think it would be fair for the schools to allow the children to have holidays out of term to visit relatives in Britain on special occasions. Should the local Aussie kids be allowed holidays at any time? No, in my opinion. Is that racism or discrimination? No, again.

The muslim girl wearing a long sleeved shirt is for religious reasons, to cover her arms. Not to keep out the cold. Why should children wear long sleeve shirts to keep out the cold when they are doing PE? The whole idea is to run around to get warm.

Originally posted by Toby
Yeah, but it's untrue.

That's the problem with threads like this. Kirky has heard from an unreliable source that muslim kids can have four months off school, so comes on a website asking whether we believe it's right that his daughter should be discriminated against. Almost immediately, there are responses along the lines of "one rule for them, another rule for us", and some bluster about new French laws which is equally ill informed. By just posting things you've heard Kirky, instead of actually checking whether they are true, you only help perpetuate the myths that the far right would have us believe.

And all that coming from a man who thinks that Wincobank is in Rotherham ;)

Originally posted by kirky
she can't wear a long sleeve shirt for P.E. not unless she's a muslim,niow before the anti rascist mob have a go at me i'm only stating what i think is out of order my daughter should be able to wear a long sleeve shirt when its cold whats being muslim got to do with owt.

If I were in your position Kirky, I would send my daughter in long sleeves and take it from there. Your daughters right IMO not to catch pneumonia is every bit as important as a religious right to cover up. Too many inequalities in our society 'explained' away in this manner. Stand up and be counted.

Originally posted by sheffbag

They are but in order to get round this they are building a school (at uk taxpayers expense) in Bangladesh (i think its there) for children to attend while they are out there

Please can you post a reliable reference to this as evidence that it is true?

If not, we can only take it with a bagful of salt.

Originally posted by Mo
If I were in your position Kirky, I would send my daughter in long sleeves and take it from there. Your daughters right IMO not to catch pneumonia is every bit as important as a religious right to cover up. Too many inequalities in our society 'explained' away in this manner. Stand up and be counted.


thats hilarious.

A headteacher says kids should wear goggles to protect them when playing conkers and everyone is up in arms that kids are being over protected.

Please tell me of an example in the past 50 years when any child has caught pneumonia from doing PE in short sleeves.

We used to do PE up at Castle Dyke at Ringinglow which is just about the coldest place in Sheffield- should we have asked for patio heaters to keep us warm?

Originally posted by sham71
thats hilarious.

A headteacher says kids should wear goggles to protect them when playing conkers and everyone is up in arms that kids are being over protected.

Please tell me of an example in the past 50 years when any child has caught pneumonia from doing PE in short sleeves.

We used to do PE up at Castle Dyke at Ringinglow which is just about the coldest place in Sheffield- should we have asked for patio heaters to keep us warm?


And your statements are ridiculous.

The conker fiasco was aimed at protecting the school from litigation obsessed parents who just can't accept that accidents can and do happen.

I have a child with severe asthma and believe me while exercise is good for her condition, not being kept reasonably warm isn't.

A school rule is a rule and if certain sections of the school community don't like that then perhaps they ought to be setting up their own schools * taking cover*

I knew the 'when i was a lad' chestnut would appear from somewhere.
Considering the amount of extra conditions children now suffer with, it is better to have a blanket safety cover to protect ALL children than none at all.
The argument over whether parents now mollycoddle their children into these illnesses is a completely different thread...but at the end of the day...they don't make them like they used to and condition must be set up according to circumstance.

Moon

If a school has a rule then it should be applied to all unless there is a reason for individuals to be exempt. Back to my school in the 60's (insert dream sequence type music) we had to wear shorts and sleeveless gym shirts for all outdoor sports irrespective of the weather. Except for those who suffered from asthma, they were exempt on production of a note from their doctor. (snap out of reverie)

Similarly, children in kirky's school are exempt from the current rule on religious grounds. If kirky can supply a reason for his daughter to be exempt from this rule on any grounds at all then I'm sure the school will honour his/her request for exemption.

Nothing to do with discrimination more to do with explicit exemption.

Originally posted by max


Similarly, children in kirky's school are exempt from the current rule on religious grounds. If kirky can supply a reason for his daughter to be exempt from this rule on any grounds at all then I'm sure the school will honour his/her request for exemption.

Nothing to do with discrimination more to do with explicit exemption.

my point isn't allowing our young'n to wear a long sleeve shirt,its why can't she if she wants to.

Originally posted by kirky
my point isn't allowing our young'n to wear a long sleeve shirt,its why can't she if she wants to.

What you're questioning here is the rule that states your child should wear a short sleeved shirt then? Why not take it up with the governors? Thye're the ones best placed to explain rules.

Can I change the title of this thread, please, as it seems to be attracting all sorts of arguments about racism and religious discrimination when in fact it's a simple query about school uniform rules.

Originally posted by Tony
Please can you post a reliable reference to this as evidence that it is true?

If not, we can only take it with a bagful of salt.


Liverpool Council I think had problems with huge periods of absenteeism from children spending extended amounts of time in India visiting relatives. Councillors were asked to come up with ways of solving this problems and one person pointed out that if they channelled all the money they put into chasing up kids and parents into establishing a school in Bangladesh, then that would help the problem.

It was however only a suggestion and was scrapped as soon as the press got hold of it.

change the name i don't mind.....its not about uniform at all its about rules for muslims and rules for non muslims..or any religion for that matter

Originally posted by kirky
change the name i don't mind.....its not about uniform at all its about rules for muslims and rules for non muslims..or any religion for that matter

Surely the rule was there before any muslim pupils attended the school. If there were no muslim children at the school would you still have the same objections to the rule? Given those objections, would you not approach the school and ask for an exemption for your daughter?

Why use the muslim/non muslim argument for what is simply a case of your not wanting your child to abide by the school's dress rule?

Originally posted by max
Surely the rule was there before any muslim pupils attended the school. If there were no muslim children at the school would you still have the same objections to the rule? Given those objections, would you not approach the school and ask for an exemption for your daughter?

Why use the muslim/non muslim argument for what is simply a case of your not wanting your child to abide by the school's dress rule?

right i'll try and put into plain english for you,your obviously not on the ball,the muslim girls in the class wear long sleeve shirts for games cos their religion says they have to cover up,my daughter is not the same religion so she can't wear the same shirt,my point is the rules should be the same for them all..which part of that don't you understand,or is it because i'm using the word "muslim" thats upsetting you:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: if the school made everyone wear short sleaves i'm sure you'd not be able to move around the school gates for banner waving do-gooders demanding rights for the ethnic minoritys.

How about if I put this in plain English for you? If those people were given exemption from the school dress code because of a medical problem would you have raised this as an issue? Or is it because they are muslim children that you are upset?

i see Tonys point, you are bringing the religion issue into this when it's completely irrelevant.

there is a rule. Some pupils for whatever reason have been given an exeption. You object and think that either the rule should apply to all or it should apply to none.

Take it up with the governers or make up a reason for your daughter to be exempt.

I personally think that the rule should be changed, allowing exceptions is unfair to the people not exempt.

Originally posted by Greybeard
It will need an awareness by the main stream political parties to the fifth column in our midst,


As a treat at Christmas can we have an award ceremony or something?

Can I Please nominate Greybeard for “most inappropriate use of emotive language“.

Wouldn't the sensible option from the schools point of view be to ask all girls to wear long sleeves. There wouldn't then appear to be one rule for one and another for the others and all girls would be equal in what they wore. Or failing that then allow either.

To be honest I didn't think that school uniform was applied so rigorously in Sheffield these days.

Originally posted by Cyclone
i see Tonys point, you are bringing the religion issue into this when it's completely irrelevant.

there is a rule. Some pupils for whatever reason have been given an exeption. You object and think that either the rule should apply to all or it should apply to none.

Take it up with the governers or make up a reason for your daughter to be exempt.

I personally think that the rule should be changed, allowing exceptions is unfair to the people not exempt.

I DON'T WANT HER TO BE EXCEMPT I WANT HER TO HAVE THE CHOICE THE OTHERS HAVE, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE OF PEOPLE BEING EXEMPT WE ARE TALKING HUNDREDS OF THEM.

Originally posted by Mo


To be honest I didn't think that school uniform was applied so rigorously in Sheffield these days.

its made a come back in the last few years and rightly so...but whats the point if different uniform is for different types of people.

why have the rule in the first place?

Originally posted by kirky
I DON'T WANT HER TO BE EXCEMPT I WANT HER TO HAVE THE CHOICE THE OTHERS HAVE, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE OF PEOPLE BEING EXEMPT WE ARE TALKING HUNDREDS OF THEM.

If you're talking about the muslim children, again, then they don't have a choice either. Their religion requires them to keep their arms covered, hence the exemption. The same exemption a child who had sensitive skin could have.

As Mo says, press for the rule to be ditched.

Originally posted by kirky
its made a come back in the last few years and rightly so...but whats the point if different uniform is for different types of people.


i could get into the baseball caps and turbans argument but i'll give it a miss,so many people are missing the point.

I had asthma at school. If only I'd known that it was due to my inappropriate sleeve length.

Originally posted by kirky
i could get into the baseball caps and turbans argument but i'll give it a miss,so many people are missing the point.

unless Chav is seen as a recognised religion, I really can't see the connection between baseball caps and turbans.

Originally posted by sham71
I had asthma at school. If only I'd known that it was due to my inappropriate sleeve length.

is it too late to contact injury lawyers for you.give it a go mate its no win no fee you know:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

Originally posted by kirky
I DON'T WANT HER TO BE EXCEMPT I WANT HER TO HAVE THE CHOICE THE OTHERS HAVE, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE OF PEOPLE BEING EXEMPT WE ARE TALKING HUNDREDS OF THEM.

explain to me then please, what the difference between having the choice and being exempt are? In my mind by being exempt from the rule you gain the freedom to have the choice, is that wrong?

Originally posted by sham71


Please tell me of an example in the past 50 years when any child has caught pneumonia from doing PE in short sleeves.



I got many infections from doing PE in the cold at secondary school. I don’t have asthma so I wasn’t allowed to wear a top or sports jumper. I’m of slim build & small height & find it quite hard to keep warm anyway. I spent a lot of time at school ill, I got wind chill, countless chest infections & ear infections. I had a note from my doctor saying I was to wear suitable warm clothing while doing PE which my parents thought appropriate & a woolly hat to stop getting ear infections. the schools PE shirt was thin & not warm, Well they virtually laughed in my face, they wouldn’t allow me to wear a sweatshirt or sports top because it wasn’t school uniform. There wasn’t a top that was school uniform that I could wear to do PE & I wasn’t allowed the hat, they gave me cotton wool instead which didn’t stop the infections because my ear & surrounding it was still cold! After I got another chest infection my mum stopped letting me do PE. I could never understand the school because ok wearing short sleeved tops may make you run round more because you are cold but quite a lot of people got ill from the cold which just causes that child to be off ill!

I went to a catholic secondary school in Sheffield which was quite strict……….



Originally posted by Mo
To be honest I didn't think that school uniform was applied so rigorously in Sheffield these days.

………..Especially regarding uniform, I think I was the same with other catholic secondary school. Top button fastened, tie pulled up, shirt tucked, no brand labels etc

Originally posted by kirky
how the **** would you know i heard from an unreliable source you plank:rolleyes:

Because it's untrue. That makes it fairly unreliable, surely?

Originally posted by sham71
unless Chav is seen as a recognised religion, I really can't see the connection between baseball caps and turbans.

you wear them both on your head..but not at our young'ns school..turbans only :rolleyes:

Originally posted by kirky
you wear them both on your head..but not at our young'ns school..turbans only :rolleyes:


wow, you really are comparing the wearing of turbans with the wearing of baseball caps.

Can you not see that there is a difference?

Originally posted by Toby
Because it's untrue. That makes it fairly unreliable, surely?

oh ok then :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think there could be a bit of a mix up here, heres my perspective on it anyway - comments welcomed as always!

Kirky is upset because his daughter isn't allowed to wear warmed clothing for P.E.

I see his point, as if his kids got asthma, then I'm sure an exemption from the P.E. dress code could be granted for the colder months upon request to the school.

Now, heres where we hit a grey area. Kirky says the muslim girls are allowed to wear these long sleeves... well heres the difference. They are not 'allowed' to wear it for the same reasons as you, they are doing it following their religion.

An example would be that your daughter has a right in summer to have a short sleeve top on - but guess what...the muslims girls don't.

What I am saying is that although you are seeing it as a one rule for them another for us situation, theyr dress will always be the same, and will not change throughout the year, even if its hot.

I think in your case it would be best to bring the problems up with the school more on a medical basis.

Hey, although a bit off topic what do you guys think to 'muslim mortgages' - how many non-muslims would like to sign up to it?

Thanks all!

Originally posted by Toby
Because it's untrue. That makes it fairly unreliable, surely?

no, his source appeared to be reliable but infact mislead him...

although we've seen no hard evidence either way to prove whether it's true or not.

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
Hey, although a bit off topic what do you guys think to 'muslim mortgages' - how many non-muslims would like to sign up to it?


What is a muslim mortgage ?

Originally posted by Cyclone
no, his source appeared to be reliable but infact mislead him... prove whether it's true or not.

how?

a clear statement on a government website (although clear might be pushing it where the government is concerned).

Kirky - did you say your daughter had asthma, or did someone else bring it into the discussion?

Originally posted by Cyclone
no, his source appeared to be reliable but infact mislead him...

although we've seen no hard evidence either way to prove whether it's true or not.

Sorry?

He said that the maximum time pupils are allowed off school outside normal holidays is ten days, unless they are visiting relatives abroad, in which case they are allowed four months. Do you really need someone to prove that that is wrong?

Originally posted by Toby
Sorry?

He said that the maximum time pupils are allowed off school outside normal holidays is ten days, unless they are visiting relatives abroad, in which case they are allowed four months. Do you really need someone to prove that that is wrong?

wrong..its 100% true..:D :D :D :D :D :D

Originally posted by Toby
Sorry?

He said that the maximum time pupils are allowed off school outside normal holidays is ten days, unless they are visiting relatives abroad, in which case they are allowed four months. Do you really need someone to prove that that is wrong?

don't know about 4 months but a boy in my childs class had 5 weeks off to visit family in India.

for gods sake, one of you just prove it.

Short of naming the individuals concerned and asking them to come on here, how can we?

right i fear i must admit i'm wrong my daughter has just shwm me the letter and its 4 weeks not 4 months so ok i'm wrong but 4 weeks is 28 days not 10

Can anyone explain the mortgage thingy ?

Originally posted by nick2
Can anyone explain the mortgage thingy ?

eh?

Originally posted by kirky
eh?

"muslim mortgages"

Someone mentioned it earlier.

Originally posted by Cyclone
for gods sake, one of you just prove it.

Jesus , really?


Surely the fact that it sounds completely implausible should be proof enough?

If not, then http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/education/information-for-parentscarers/attendance

Originally posted by Toby
Jesus , really?


Surely the fact that it sounds completely implausible should be proof enough?

If not, then http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/education/information-for-parentscarers/attendance

okay, so we've established that it's 4 weeks.

have you decided how you're going too go forwards with the complaint about the pe uniform kirky?

Surely there is a difference between a child going to visit relatives in a far-away country and a child whose parents want to go in term time to save money on their holiday.

big up for Kirky admitting he got it wrong

Toby, stop showing off you headmastering abilities ;)

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I knew the 'when i was a lad' chestnut would appear from somewhere.
Considering the amount of extra conditions children now suffer with, it is better to have a blanket safety cover to protect ALL children than none at all.
The argument over whether parents now mollycoddle their children into these illnesses is a completely different thread...but at the end of the day...they don't make them like they used to and condition must be set up according to circumstance.

Moon Ummm... isn't that because people now insist on living in mega hygienic hermetically sealed boxes with no exposure to the very bacteria and virii that provide immunity?

Vicious circle anyone?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Liverpool Council I think had problems with huge periods of absenteeism from children spending extended amounts of time in India visiting relatives. Councillors were asked to come up with ways of solving this problems and one person pointed out that if they channelled all the money they put into chasing up kids and parents into establishing a school in Bangladesh, then that would help the problem.

It was however only a suggestion and was scrapped as soon as the press got hold of it.

Originally posted by kirky
right i fear i must admit i'm wrong my daughter has just shwm me the letter and its 4 weeks not 4 months so ok i'm wrong but 4 weeks is 28 days not 10


(In a headmasters sternest voice)


And why isn’t your child in school?

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
Hey, although a bit off topic what do you guys think to 'muslim mortgages' - how many non-muslims would like to sign up to it?
Sounds like a great topic for a new thread 1man... care to start it instead of seding this one OT?

Originally posted by Cyclone
okay, so we've established that it's 4 weeks.

have you decided how you're going too go forwards with the complaint about the pe uniform kirky?


i aint gonna do anything because i don't object to her wearing short sleeves it never did me any harm..i'll tell you why i brought up the subject.i took my daughter out the other night for her birthday some of her friends came with us.......after the meal they were chatting and the main topic was how the asian girls get treat different to them and how unfair it was.......i could tell there was dislike for the asian girls because of the prferentaial treatment they receive,if my daughter lived in a muslim country she'd be told what to wear what to eat and when and rightly so because i'm a believer of when in rome do what the romans do.

Originally posted by kirky
if my daughter lived in a muslim country she'd be told what to wear what to eat and when and rightly so because i'm a believer of when in rome do what the romans do.

But that’s the problem with Britain's current limbo status between a Christian State and a secular society.
Should we force all children to follow Christian traditions or should we make allowances for other faiths so that they can send their children to state schools without causing religious conflict at home.

It's a big problem we need to sort out.

Originally posted by sham71
Surely there is a difference between a child going to visit relatives in a far-away country and a child whose parents want to go in term time to save money on their holiday.

its not just about saving money tho is it, if my parents hadnt have taken me & my brother out of school for a holiday then we wouldnt have had one at all! my parents saved up all they had for a weeks holiday to scotland two weeks if we were really lucky & if my dad had done over time we even got a day out to skeggy. its not all, oh we'll take the kids out a school to save £300 on our holiday, more, have we got the £300 to go on holiday!

Originally posted by kirky
i aint gonna do anything because i don't object to her wearing short sleeves it never did me any harm..i'll tell you why i brought up the subject.i took my daughter out the other night for her birthday some of her friends came with us.......after the meal they were chatting and the main topic was how the asian girls get treat different to them and how unfair it was.......i could tell there was dislike for the asian girls because of the prferentaial treatment they receive,if my daughter lived in a muslim country she'd be told what to wear what to eat and when and rightly so because i'm a believer of when in rome do what the romans do.

Your daughter and her friends live in this country and we are far more tolerant of others' beliefs.

I cannot see what's preferential about the treatment of asian, or is it muslim, girls. Read some of the earlier posts to show why their treatment isn't preferential.

Originally posted by SaxonLeigh
its not just about saving money tho is it, if my parents hadnt have taken me & my brother out of school for a holiday then we wouldnt have had one at all! my parents saved up all they had for a weeks holiday to scotland two weeks if we were really lucky & if my dad had done over time we even got a day out to skeggy. its not all, oh we'll take the kids out a school to save £300 on our holiday, more, have we got the £300 to go on holiday!

What did you do during the 6 weeks holliday then ?

Originally posted by max
Your daughter and her friends live in this country and we are far more tolerant of others' beliefs.

I cannot see what's preferential about the treatment of asian, or is it muslim, girls. Read some of the earlier posts to show why their treatment isn't preferential.

i give up:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kirky, You say that some people have a dislike for Aian girls as a result of this preferential treatment and it is obvious that "some people " includes you.
I think this is misguided. It's not the beneficiaries of this bias that should be targeted but the policy makers who have implemented it (although it is normal human behaviour to react against "favourites" rather than persons doling out the favours)
As a matter of principle you should be demanding an equitable policy whether your daughter wishes to exploit it or not....all pupils should be allowed to wear long sleeves if they wish. The policy makers should be taken to task and forced to change the rules. Either everyone has to wear shortsleeves or everyone has the option to choose. The current policy smacks of expedient pc (not a term I use lightly)

sorry, i thought you were complaining because you wished your daughter to have the choice.
but you don't, you just think it's unfair that someone else has the choice. Except they don't either, they have to wear long sleaves.

I don't know what your point is anymore, should they not be allowed to follow the dictates of their religion, just because your's doesn't have anything similar?

Is your proposal then that they should wear short sleaves and disregard their religion so that no one feels that it's unfair?

It sounds like you're the one with the issue now, when originally i thought you had a point.

Originally posted by Cyclone
sorry, i thought you were complaining because you wished your daughter to have the choice.
but you don't, you just think it's unfair that someone else has the choice. Except they don't either, they have to wear long sleaves.

I don't know what your point is anymore, should they not be allowed to follow the dictates of their religion, just because your's doesn't have anything similar?

Is your proposal then that they should wear short sleaves and disregard their religion so that no one feels that it's unfair?

It sounds like you're the one with the issue now, when originally i thought you had a point.

do shut up you tart:rolleyes:

Originally posted by nick2
What did you do during the 6 weeks holliday then ?

same as what we did after school, my older sisters looked after us while my mum worked 3-11pm & dad did nights 6pm-6am.

or if you didnt mean that....


during the 6 week holidays we went on bike rides, played footy & cricket & just jenerally had a laugh!

Originally posted by SaxonLeigh
same as what we did after school, my older sisters looked after us while my mum worked 3-11pm & dad did nights 6pm-6am.

or if you didnt mean that....


during the 6 week holidays we went on bike rides, played footy & cricket & just jenerally had a laugh!


couldn't you have gone on holiday in the 6 week holiday?

For goodness sake get some legal advice so you know exactly where you stand. You are on the edge of a minefield here. The problem with schools generally is that they are a one-size-fits all solution to what to do with kids and stretching them to fit is going to cause probs. oink oink

Originally posted by sham71
couldn't you have gone on holiday in the 6 week holiday?

as i have said, t'was too expensive!

mum & dad worked bad hours for the £'s, they saved up all they could just so we could afford a weeks hoilday in scotland two weeks if we were lucky!

it gets me mad when people say that, there are 1000's upon 1000's of people all trying to go on holiday at the same time & travile co.s know this, we dont all have that kind of money to just throw around you know!

Originally posted by kirky
do shut up you tart:rolleyes:
I think it's time to shut up shop on this topic

I concur. Closing this thread due to the fact it's all become a bit of a slanging match. Agree to disagree and move on. There is plenty of good (and bad) advice on here for the thread starter (and anyone else in a similar situation) to consider.