Boris Johnson has been ordered to apologise to the people of Liverpool for remarks he made in a Spectator article. In the piece, Johnson accused Liverpudlians of wallowing in self-pity over Ken Bigley's fate, and a general tendency towards mawkishness and self-dramatisation. Opinions?

Originally posted by timo
Boris Johnson has been ordered to apologise to the people of Liverpool for remarks he made in a Spectator article. In the piece, Johnson accused Liverpudlians of wallowing in self-pity over Ken Bigley's fate, and a general tendency towards mawkishness and self-dramatisation. Opinions?
without seeing the article in full it would be difficult to make a comment anyone got a link:|

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3749548.stm is a link to an article about the article.

Mr Johnson's comments about the Hillsborough disaster and Liverpool's reaction to that seem to echo similar comments that were made in this forum recently.

Yes I think he does have a point, but no one dares to say it.

Yes I am shocked by the reaction to the article too. I didm't think anyone in Liverpool could read!:hihi:

Being born on merseyside and spending much of my youth in the city of liverpool I feel Boris is out of order. The people of liverpool do come together at times like this as a community and share the sense of loss. Liverpool as a city deserves better luck than it has had recently and I'm happy to say that as a city is is bouyant and upbeat these days - more so than in any time I can remember.

Unfortunatley if you don't visit the city and spend time there you will not be able to reliably comment on the city or its people, so perhaps boris and other posters to this forum should just keep quiet on the subject?

A rather contentious observation by Mr Johnson.

It's only his opinion and it certainly doesn't automatically make it true.

Ah dear old Boris manages to shoot himself in both feet while he has them in his mouth - I see great things for him ahead in the Tory party!

There may be some elements of truth behind what he says, but for a politician he's not very ermmmmm politically savvy is he!?

[i]Mr Johnson adds the city made a scapegoat of police in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster, refusing to acknowledge the part played "by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground". [/B]

Ah yeah he'd know all about what it's like standing on football terraces wouldn't he? I mean, I'm sure he's observed it from his overly expensive seat in the main stand at Chelsea, paid for by the tax payer.

I don’t think he should be sent to apologise now. That will just be a carefully constructed PR stunt by the Tory party so that when he has to attend the upcoming ceremony for Liverpool getting granted the status of city of culture, he'll have already backtracked and can stand silently at the back. Let him face the music then I say.

I can kind of see what he was getting at, but to specifically single out the people of Liverpool is just ridiculous.

What annoys me is people pretending that they feel grief for a person that they didn't know. Being a bit upset and sad about something is not the same as grief.

Originally posted by Yodameister
I can kind of see what he was getting at, but to specifically single out the people of Liverpool is just ridiculous.

What annoys me is people pretending that they feel grief for a person that they didn't know. Being a bit upset and sad about something is not the same as grief.

I don't think that is done in a malicious way - people just struggle to know how to react and express there feelings. So they resort to an expression that they know - that of grief.

Yes thats what I mean, you don't change attitudes by slagging off an entire city!

Its just a case of him opening his mouth before thinking I don't think he should be treated as a pariah. It is possible for a politician to make a genuine mistake and I think in his case it probably was.

Originally posted by Yodameister
Yes thats what I mean, you don't change attitudes by slagging off an entire city!

Its just a case of him opening his mouth before thinking I don't think he should be treated as a pariah. It is possible for a politician to make a genuine mistake and I think in his case it probably was.

I don't actually think it was a case of The Spectator trying to change attitudes. It's just a piece of self-consciously contrarian nonsense, that begins with a reasonable premise before falling away into inaccurate prejudice. Crap journalism, basically.

The Shadow Arts minister should be a bit cleverer than deriding the future City of Culture. But then again, Johnson is everyone's favourite buffoon - shows what a sorry mess the Tory party are in when a bumbling fool like him is one of their foremost political thinkers...

Yes i think he should apologise.
Liverpool is one of the best cities in England and its people the friendliest.
In my opinion tony blair has had blood on his hands for a long time now.
well miniminch to say youre saying other people cant read,
was that you being sardonic in your statement or can you really not spell didn't.

Perhaps Boris might have commented on the Nationwide phonemonon when Di was killed in Dodi's motor. This is far more deserving of analysis than any reaction to Ken Bigley's murder. Not least because of the difference in scale in the public reactions and the fact that one was an unfortunate accident, whilst the other incident was a brutal murder committed after weeks of public torment.
Maybe he should attack the whole country for wallowing in self pity rather than one city?

totally agree, ned's statement says it all.

He has apologised in a genuine manner because, even though he didn't write the article,he as the editor has sole responsibility for what goes out to press.The guy that wrote it has written several documents regarding Liverpudlians and the Hillsborough disaster,this is just one more stating his opinion,an opinion that he has the right to make.

Originally posted by sarah_d
He has apologised in a genuine manner because, even though he didn't write the article,he as the editor has sole responsibility for what goes out to press.The guy that wrote it has written several documents regarding Liverpudlians and the Hillsborough disaster,this is just one more stating his opinion,an opinion that he has the right to make.

But the fact is that his opinions on the Hillsborough disaster are inaccurate, offensive and pretty repugnant. The Taylor report was unequivocal in that the burden of responsibility lay with the police, not "drunken fans". The article also said "over 50 fans died' which betrays either lazy research or a wilful disregard to the facts (but why let a little principle such as 'truth' get in the way of baiting backwards northern folk, eh?)

After the Hillsborough tragedy all we heard was how awful it was for the people of Liverpool and I was fed up of hearing how they were appealing this and appealing that for months and then years afterwards. Every time a person from Liverpool is involved in anything we hear how awful it is and isn't it awful how much sorrow or whatever they have to bear.

I know I'm going to get blasted over this and I never thought I would sympathise with Boris but I do.

Remember the joke about how you stop crime in this country. Build a wall around Liverpool.

They won't like that one either but it is an old joke. Just because a thing is in bad taste does not mean it isn't true.

I will sit back now and wait for my slagging off:rant:

I like the wall idea but not for the same reasons as you.
Just imagine if Cilla Black and Jimmy Tarbuck had never been unleashed on the rest of the country?:D
Perhaps you should have to live with them both as a punishment for some uncaring remarks?

Originally posted by dilwise
After the Hillsborough tragedy all we heard was how awful it was for the people of Liverpool and I was fed up of hearing how they were appealing this and appealing that for months and then years afterwards.

Poor you :(


Remember the joke about how you stop crime in this country. Build a wall around Liverpool.

They won't like that one either but it is an old joke. Just because a thing is in bad taste does not mean it isn't true.

Yeah, and the Irish are all drunks, the Jews are all tight, the blacks lazy, etc etc. Yawn.

Originally posted by dilwise
After the Hillsborough tragedy all we heard was how awful it was for the people of Liverpool and I was fed up of hearing how they were appealing this and appealing that for months and then years afterwards. Every time a person from Liverpool is involved in anything we hear how awful it is and isn't it awful how much sorrow or whatever they have to bear.

I know I'm going to get blasted over this and I never thought I would sympathise with Boris but I do.

Remember the joke about how you stop crime in this country. Build a wall around Liverpool.

They won't like that one either but it is an old joke. Just because a thing is in bad taste does not mean it isn't true.

I will sit back now and wait for my slagging off:rant:

It's not anything to do with you getting blasted really. If you feel the need to make silly posts making statements that have no research involved you won't be taken seriously. Next time you decide to waste some space on a forum, please having something valuable to say that doesn't just slag of a whole populace of a city, country, race etc...

I have to wonder if those posting on this topic have actually read the article in question. It can be found here..

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?table=old&section=current&issue=2004-10-16&id=5126

I don't find much to disagree with iin principle. I too find the "mawkishness" he's on about a little embarrassing and out of place.

As he points out there is little notice taken by the press or the public of the casualties suffered by our armed forces in Iraq

He should have left Liverpool out of his argument, the citizens of that city were not the only ones involved in promoting Ken Bigley to the status of a martyr.

Originally posted by Greenback
But the fact is that his opinions on the Hillsborough disaster are inaccurate, offensive and pretty repugnant. The Taylor report was unequivocal in that the burden of responsibility lay with the police, not "drunken fans".


I wouldn't argue with the findings of the Taylor report as far as resonsibility goes, the police failed to make an accurate judgement of the dangers of the situation. However there can be no denial that several hundred Liverpool fans turned up for the match without tickets and determined nevertheless to gain entry to the ground. This was made very plain at the inquest and in my mind at least, Liverpudlians themselves have to carry some of the blame for the tragedy.

Originally posted by dilwise
After the Hillsborough tragedy all we heard was how awful it was for the people of Liverpool and I was fed up of hearing how they were appealing this and appealing that for months and then years afterwards. Every time a person from Liverpool is involved in anything we hear how awful it is and isn't it awful how much sorrow or whatever they have to bear.

I know I'm going to get blasted over this and I never thought I would sympathise with Boris but I do.

Remember the joke about how you stop crime in this country. Build a wall around Liverpool.

They won't like that one either but it is an old joke. Just because a thing is in bad taste does not mean it isn't true.

I will sit back now and wait for my slagging off:rant:

I won't slag you off but I would be happy to retaliate with another uncalled for generalism about the folk from another city. "All sheffield-ers are tight racisct biggots with 2 crap football teams".

It's about as untrue as your statement but I could at least provide some evidence to support that point.....

I started this thread, and then sat back to allow others the chance to comment. Makes a change from the usual, leap in with metaphorical fists and boots flailing, Timo style, does it not? There are some interesting views here. For the record, here is mine.
As someone who lives near, and works in Liverpool, I have formed a mixed opinion of the people. Tara, a wise commentator, makes the point that the city is one of the friendliest in the country. That is undeniably true. There are fewer social boundaries in Liverpool than in many other cities, which may be traced back to the predominantly working class culture of the city. Liverpudlians are famous for giving enormous amounts, as a city, to charities. This is admirable, and perhaps reflects a good degree of compassion in the local population. I have seen with my own eyes, and experienced, many, many acts of kindness in the city.
However, Johnson is, in my view, absolutely correct to identify a trend within the culture of the city towards sentimentality which borders on the mawkish, and a tendency to self-dramatisation. On the Hillsborough thread, I attempted to trace this tendency back to the unique, Liverpool-Irish culture that has evolved over the years. Also relevant is the history of short-time, casualised work [for example the dockers, who even in their heyday often had the shortest contracts- a "job for a day" etc] in the city. The combination of "disasters" like Hillsborough, Heysell, James Bulger's murder etc, plus the stereotype of the militant ["If you're not with us, you're against us"] mentality, the whinging and whining victimhood; themselves largely contributed to by Liverpool writers like Bleasdale etc, make the image of the city a very unfashionable one. The people so often in my experience feel that the world is against them. As Auberon Waugh said about their reaction to Hillsborough; "Uzza Gain" replaced "Gizza Job". Johnson should stand by his word. His weasily apology is pathetic, and clearly an attempt to save his career as a Tory MP.

Your entitled to your opinion Timo and you have at least expressed it in a way that lends understanding.

I do disagree. If the "whinging" is prevalent it is because the media report it - and how many national newspapers do you know that are edited on merseyside? Or are you all saying that in the times mentioned you visited the city to gague the reactions? Nope - spoon fed your opnions by the media as usual....

I prefer to subscribe to the view that as you say liverpool is a charitable city with a huge sense of community spirit and tragedies such as they ones mentioned are genuinely, deeply felt by the majority of merseysiders.
There may be others who do seem to exagurate their feelings, but this could be due to their seeking acceptance from that community. It's the "scallies" way of saying - we might seem undesireable most of the time but we are with you for the city.

If London/Rest of UK is sick of hearing crying scousers, hilsborough hearings, and whatever else it doesn' t like it should stop reporting on it and let the city deal with its tragedies in its own way.

Of course, we must all be non-racial, non-chauvinistic, all caring generally good people. However, I sense an underlying trend towards the view that we can think what we like but must not say it.

Originally posted by dilwise
Of course, we must all be non-racial, non-chauvinistic, all caring generally good people. However, I sense an underlying trend to wards the view that we can think what we like but must not say it.

You may say what you like, but if you argue with dated generalisations and judge-mentality, you'll probably end up with a bit of an argument on your hands. Then again, that's what forums are for, is it not?

Originally posted by dilwise
Of course, we must all be non-racial, non-chauvinistic, all caring generally good people. However, I sense an underlying trend towards the view that we can think what we like but must not say it.

I can't think of any justification for being racist or chauvenist. So if what your saying is that is what we should aspire to, you are correct.

On the subject of the attitudes towards liverpool you are entitled to think and say what you like as others are to argue with you. God knows I have been the butt of enough "hilarious" scouser jokes since moving yorkshire...("anyone seen my pen?...you better ask the scouser" is a fav) so the prejudice is nothing new.

Originally posted by kilauea
I can't think of any justification for being racist or chauvenist. So if what your saying is that is what we should aspire to, you are correct.


Ever since the word "male" was attached to the front of "chauvinist", many people have lost sight of the real meaning of the word.

The literal meaning of CHAUVINISTIC is "fanatically patriotic". So, while it may be gauche to exhibit such tendencies, it's not quite the same as racism.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Ever since the word "male" was attached to the front of "chauvinist", many people have lost sight of the real meaning of the word.

The literal meaning of CHAUVINISTIC is "fanatically patriotic". So, while it may be gauche to exhibit such tendencies, it's not quite the same as racism.

Actualy I think the meaing of the word has now "officially" come to include feelings of superiority about ones sex or race (as its been added to the dictionary as such).

Kilauea, may I assure you that I am not "spoon-fed" my opinions by either the press or media. They are based upon my ten years experience of living and working in Merseyside. I hear all too often the tremulous cry, like the refrain of a ballad, "It's us again.." There is a greater degree of collective feeling on Merseyside than one encounters elsewhere in England. It is, perhaps based on the development of a unique, predominantly working class, Liverpool-Irish culture, with its own distinct values and norms. Some of these values and norms are wonderful and charming. Others, such as the tendency towards self-pity, arouse irritation in people from other parts of the UK, where social boundaries are more fixed and well-defined. There is an ethnic dimension to this, do not forget. I reiterate my point about the influence of the Irish [both Catholic and Protestant] upon the Liverpool character and culture. There is evidence for this Hibernian contribution, not only from sociology, but from biology in the form of blood group frequencies. Liverpool is closer to Ireland than it is to the rest of Northern England in terms of population genetics. Hopefully, this will convince you that I can think for myself a little, without the help of the [undeniably anti-Liverpool media]. All the best.

Originally posted by timo
Kilauea, may I assure you that I am not "spoon-fed" my opinions by either the press or media. They are based upon my ten years experience of living and working in Merseyside. I hear all too often the tremulous cry, like the refrain of a ballad, "It's us again.." There is a greater degree of collective feeling on Merseyside than one encounters elsewhere in England. It is, perhaps based on the development of a unique, predominantly working class, Liverpool-Irish culture, with its own distinct values and norms. Some of these values and norms are wonderful and charming. Others, such as the tendency towards self-pity, arouse irritation in people from other parts of the UK, where social boundaries are more fixed and well-defined. There is an ethnic dimension to this, do not forget. I reiterate my point about the influence of the Irish [both Catholic and Protestant] upon the Liverpool character and culture. There is evidence for this Hibernian contribution, not only from sociology, but from biology in the form of blood group frequencies. Liverpool is closer to Ireland than it is to the rest of Northern England in terms of population genetics. Hopefully, this will convince you that I can think for myself a little, without the help of the [undeniably anti-Liverpool media]. All the best.

Liverpool clearly has strong irish links but do not see any evidence of this self-pity amonst the irish. In fact they are mostly the opposite. So I can't see that as some kind of reason for this alleged flaw.

You can only say as you see it, and if you believe you are not influenced by the media, I am not going to question that.
But, I have lived on merseyside for nearly 3 times as long as you and do not agree that there is a culture of self-pity. The city has had a fair of share of bad luck and has simply come together at those times to express its feelings. I would rather belong to such a community than one which locks its doors and gossips in silence. If this is what some parts of the media and the population find so irrating then I pity them.

I don't know what the rest of you think, but Boris Johnson was spot on with his description of Scousers.

He shouldn't have apologised for his remarks because they were true. Drunken Liverpool fans caused the disaster. The police had a decision to make. They thought people would be hurt outside and took a gamble by opening the gates.

It's about time they accepted resonsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame South Yorkshire Police.

As I wasn't there at the time, and neither was Boris I don't think either of us is in a possition to say what happened and who is to blame.

I do however think Boris is a bit of a pillock.

However the whole city of Liverpool were allowed to decided who they thought were to blame...

Seems ever-so-slightly unfair.

So if the Scousers had all queued nicely like the Nottingham Forest fans 96 would still have died?

Boris is a well educated bloke, but is definitely eccentric. People need to tell it as it and stop worrying about the PC brigade. Good on him.

Originally posted by wasp
I don't know what the rest of you think, but Boris Johnson was spot on with his description of Scousers.

He shouldn't have apologised for his remarks because they were true. Drunken Liverpool fans caused the disaster. The police had a decision to make. They thought people would be hurt outside and took a gamble by opening the gates.

It's about time they accepted resonsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame South Yorkshire Police.

Here's what I think: that's a load of discredited rubbish. If you want to learn what happened, maybe you should read the Taylor report instead of producing ill-informed nonsense. Do you buy The Sun, perchance?

Originally posted by wasp
I don't know what the rest of you think, but Boris Johnson was spot on with his description of Scousers.

He shouldn't have apologised for his remarks because they were true. Drunken Liverpool fans caused the disaster. The police had a decision to make. They thought people would be hurt outside and took a gamble by opening the gates.

It's about time they accepted resonsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame South Yorkshire Police.

Before making drastic claims like that, I suggest you do a little research into the events. Don't just keep spouting dated media information from the time. I'm not going to get too involved in this as I am aware of the various aspects of the case, If others are not then I suppose it's for them to find out themselves.

So it wasn't drunk Scousers that killed their own? Well you learn something new every day ... and no I don't buy the Sun. I take it you are of Scouse descent if you are sticking up for them. Which paper do you steal?

That now applies to the last two posts.

Originally posted by wasp
So if the Scousers had all queued nicely like the Nottingham Forest fans 96 would still have died?



Sorry, I assume you must have been there to have such a clear aspect on it.

Calm down... Calm down...

Originally posted by wasp
So it wasn't drunk Scousers that killed their own? Well you learn something new every day ... and no I don't buy the Sun. I take it you are of Scouse descent if you are sticking up for them. Which paper do you steal?

I thin you'll find that the majority of lives saved that day were done so by the fans. Again i suggest you read several of the official investigations carried out and before posting on the subject. You are quite clearly ill informed. Feel free to go learn.

There wouldn't have been a need to save the fans if the drunk ones weren't squashing them.

Regardless of the Hillsborough skirmish, I have to agree that never before have I met a group as unwarrantedly self-righteous as scousers. I actually know quite a few, and I think they're good people, but get a drink inside them and it's all 'ferry across the mersey', and 'alright lah'...

I'm proud of being from Sheffield, but I don't make a song and dance about it. Neither do I celebrate the anniversary of disasters that happened here.

I also don't condone all this Ken Bigley stuff. It's unfortunate for him that he got killed, but he went out there, against the warnings of the government. He was out to make a fast buck and now everyone is supposed to mourn for him.

Personally I think anyone flying into these danger zones, should be told at the airport that if they get collared by bandits, they won't be rescued, the newspapers won't report on it, and basically they're out on their own.

I'm sorry if that upsets anyone, but it's the truth. His death should be a lesson to anyone else going after a quick earner...

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Yes, Ken Bigley was a gambler and lost. For his family to slate Boris for his comments is wrong. One of the Bigleys said the majority of the UK public wanted him out of public office. Check out the "Have your say" section about it at the BBC news web site. You'll see that the people who think that are in single figures percentage wise.

I'm with the majority. It's a free country and freedom of speech is necessary even if some people don't like it.

Originally posted by wasp
So it wasn't drunk Scousers that killed their own? Well you learn something new every day ... and no I don't buy the Sun. I take it you are of Scouse descent if you are sticking up for them. Which paper do you steal?

No, Hillsborough wasn't down to "drunk Scousers". The tragedy happened as a result of inadequate policing, ticketing policies and a ground that wasn't up to the standard required (in common with many others around the country, may I add). But this is all on the record, as you would have realised if you'd put your brain in gear.

Back to lessons, I think I can hear teacher calling you...

Originally posted by wasp
Yes, Ken Bigley was a gambler and lost. For his family to slate Boris for his comments is wrong. One of the Bigleys said the majority of the UK public wanted him out of public office. Check out the "Have your say" section about it at the BBC news web site. You'll see that the people who think that are in single figures percentage wise.

I'm with the majority. It's a free country and freedom of speech is necessary even if some people don't like it.

I agree in part with you on this. Bigley, along with others out in Iraq, are paid handsomely and know the risks they are taking. On the other hand, it was a pretty horrendous way to die, and it's hardly surprising it created as much reaction as it did - that was the very purpose.

Originally posted by Greenback
I agree in part with you on this. Bigley, along with others out in Iraq, are paid handsomely and know the risks they are taking. On the other hand, it was a pretty horrendous way to die, and it's hardly surprising it created as much reaction as it did - that was the very purpose.
It is horrendous..I've seen the movie :gag:

Firstly childish insults don't help to get your point across.

If they had all been stationary and queued in a civilised manner like the Notts Forest fans this debacle would never have happened. The typical Scouse response is to blame the bizzies.

I'm sure the Italians at Heysel thought it was the bizzies too when they were being made into a concrete lasagne.

Even though that was the scousers fault too, you can't the've never done anything...

Look at the Beatles...

Erm... And look at the way they left diddyland as soon as they scraped enough together for the National Express fare.

Originally posted by wasp
There wouldn't have been a need to save the fans if the drunk ones weren't squashing them.

Ok, I'll let this one go as you're quite clearly delusional and lack education. Plus we're going way off topic. I suggest that if you want to discuss this topic, you start a new thread.

Another note, I would appreciate it if people would stop being blatantly prejudiced. You can't generalise a whole city, whether that be Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester...etc. I doubt that anyone has met the majority of any city's population. People are individual and cannot be summed up by geographical location, race, sex, religion, hair colour, fashion sense.............you get the idea. That is unless you don't, in which case I'm sure you'll keep coming out with prehistoric viewpoints.

Originally posted by smedley
Regardless of the Hillsborough skirmish, I have to agree that never before have I met a group as unwarrantedly self-righteous as scousers. I actually know quite a few, and I think they're good people, but get a drink inside them and it's all 'ferry across the mersey', and 'alright lah'...



Just like when you get a drink inside cockneys they go all 'apple and pears' and when you get a drink inside the geordies they all go 'haway the lads' and when you get a drink inside the scottish they all go 'och aye the noo' and when you get a drink inside yorkshire folk they go ' ey up tha knows'...you are stupid :loopy:

I think you do find that cities COMMEMORATE anniversarys of many disasters and other situations when loved ones have been lost.

Wasp, were you dropped on your head as a child???

Actually I've just read that BBC comments board, and there are plenty of Liverpudlians on there saying that Boris Johnson was right, so I agree with Andy, they're not all bad.

Still, there's no smoke...

Originally posted by wibbles
It is horrendous..I've seen the movie :gag:

I saw the movie too and to be honest it didn't bother me. It's not that graphic because you don't see anything in the melee. The quality of the film doesn't help either. It's all disjointed.

If you see the Jack Hensley video... now that's grim. It's a close up.

Originally posted by wibbles
Just like when you get a drink inside cockneys they go all 'apple and pears' and when you get a drink inside the geordies they all go 'haway the lads' and when you get a drink inside the scottish they all go 'och aye the noo' and when you get a drink inside yorkshire folk they go ' ey up tha knows'...

What I mean to say is I don't have a few drinks and start boring everyone with how hard done to my city is, and how we've got the greatest footballers (we clearly haven't), and the best bands, and the best tragedies, and the best blind date presenter, and the best etc etc etc...

It can just get on your threpnies after a bit.

I was gutted when I heard Bigley was from Liverpool, because I knew it would lead to more and more moaning.

Originally posted by Andy78

Another note, I would appreciate it if people would stop being blatantly prejudiced. You can't generalise a whole city, whether that be Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester...etc. I doubt that anyone has met the majority of any city's population. People are individual and cannot be summed up by geographical location, race, sex, religion, hair colour, fashion sense.............you get the idea. That is unless you don't, in which case I'm sure you'll keep coming out with prehistoric viewpoints.

You are right. Every city has scum. Some have more than others. We like to keep ours on the Manor.

Originally posted by wasp
You are right. Every city has scum. Some have more than others. We like to keep ours on the Manor.

constructive comment as usual

Originally posted by wasp
Firstly childish insults don't help to get your point across.

Then stop babbling ill-informed, prejudiced nonsense and start arguing in an adult fashion.


If they had all been stationary and queued in a civilised manner like the Notts Forest fans this debacle would never have happened. The typical Scouse response is to blame the bizzies.

I'm sure the Italians at Heysel thought it was the bizzies too when they were being made into a concrete lasagne.

READ - THE - TAYLOR - REPORT.

Ignorance of the facts doesn't help get your point across.

Originally posted by Andy78
constructive comment as usual
Lighten up. All you are doing is proving that Boris's comments were right.

Originally posted by wasp
Lighten up. All you are doing is proving that Boris's comments were right.

Erm, I'm perfectly light at the moment thankyou. Though i understand it's hard to judge someone's emotional state via posts on a forum. Thank's for caring though. In response to proving boris's comments right, I don't believe that I'm feeling particularly hard done to or wallowing in self pitty. I'm in a really good mood in fact.

Originally posted by smedley
What I mean to say is I don't have a few drinks and start boring everyone with how hard done to my city is, and how we've got the greatest footballers (we clearly haven't), and the best bands, and the best tragedies, and the best blind date presenter, and the best etc etc etc...

It can just get on your threpnies after a bit.

I was gutted when I heard Bigley was from Liverpool, because I knew it would lead to more and more moaning.
Maybe YOU don't but can I generalise and say ALL Sheffield folk go on about how great it was the Full Monty was filmed here and how hard it was down t'pit and all other stereotypical comments I could come up with.
you are labelling the whole of Liverpool and ALL its people by your uneducated opinions gained from watching Bread and Brookside.

Originally posted by Greenback
Then stop babbling ill-informed, prejudiced nonsense and start arguing in an adult fashion.
READ - THE - TAYLOR - REPORT.

How many games had been held at Hillsborough with the fences up, yet it all goes pear shaped when Liverpool are in town.

Every other team managed to get their fans in without a hitch.

Just accept that drunken idiots pushing outside killed innocents inside.

Originally posted by wasp
How many games had been held at Hillsborough with the fences up, yet it all goes pear shaped when Liverpool are in town.

Every other team managed to get their fans in without a hitch.

Just accept that drunken idiots pushing outside killed innocents inside.

Why should I accept it when it's blatantly a load of crap?

You don't have the first clue what you're talking about, son.

I don't watch either of those shows. In case you haven't gathered, Liverpudlians get on my nerves, so the thought of having a bunch of murdering, adulterous, caniving, scallies (Brookside), or dole-scum (Bread) on my television is beyond me.

Basically I just wish they'd tone it down a bit. If they want to hold candlelit vigils for one of their lot who came a cropper in the middle east, by all means do, but don't fill up the bloody news with it, because it was his fault.

The newspapers aren't filled with people from Sheffield, Newcastle, London, or wherever, going on about themselves all the time. Its just scousers.

Furthermore, with regards to the other matter you all seem to be up in arms about, I've walked past plenty of open gates in my time, even when drunk, and never felt the urge to go piling in, report or no report.

Finally, who was taking the **** with that Capital of Culture award. That's tantamount to saying everyone's a winner at a special school sports day.

Originally posted by wasp
How many games had been held at Hillsborough with the fences up, yet it all goes pear shaped when Liverpool are in town.

Every other team managed to get their fans in without a hitch.

Just accept that drunken idiots pushing outside killed innocents inside.

sorry about this, but I feel you need to do some homework reading.

unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths.

If you'd like any more detail, let me know, this is obviouslt just a brief introduction.

Originally posted by smedley

Basically I just wish they'd tone it down a bit. If they want to hold candlelit vigils for one of their lot who came a cropper in the middle east, by all means do, but don't fill up the bloody news with it, because it was his fault.

The newspapers aren't filled with people from Sheffield, Newcastle, London, or wherever, going on about themselves all the time. Its just scousers.



Er, how exactly does the person in the street make the news? If the media wish to keep reporting on something, then just stop reading/watching the news. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the majority of news is published in London. Go complain at them.

Originally posted by smedley
I don't watch either of those shows. In case you haven't gathered, Liverpudlians get on my nerves, so the thought of having a bunch of murdering, adulterous, caniving, scallies (Brookside), or dole-scum (Bread) on my television is beyond me.

Basically I just wish they'd tone it down a bit. If they want to hold candlelit vigils for one of their lot who came a cropper in the middle east, by all means do, but don't fill up the bloody news with it, because it was his fault.

The newspapers aren't filled with people from Sheffield, Newcastle, London, or wherever, going on about themselves all the time. Its just scousers.

Furthermore, with regards to the other matter you all seem to be up in arms about, I've walked past plenty of open gates in my time, even when drunk, and never felt the urge to go piling in, report or no report.

Finally, who was taking the **** with that Capital of Culture award. That's tantamount to saying everyone's a winner at a special school sports day.

Thats where you are totally wrong. The only reason Liverpudlians came into this whole argument is because of Boris Johnson. Before he opened his gob the only people making a fuss was the tabloid press. I never once heard anything in the news about Liverpudlians making a fuss about Ken Bigleys death.
Its just people like you who then choose to jump on the merry bandwagon and continue the mud slinging when in fact you know nothing but what you've read in the Daily Mirror!!
If they do hold candlelight vigils then they do it for their own sake. Blame the media for glorifying it by sending camera crews to film it in the first place.
You show me an article to back up your claim about the papers FULL of stuff 'going on about themselves'..I bet you can't. Please get your facts straight before you attempt to debate with us grown ups.

Originally posted by Andy78
sorry about this, but I feel you need to do some homework reading.

unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans.

Yes because the police did a great job of keeping them apart, so they decided to jostle each other.

Originally posted by wasp
Yes because the police did a great job of keeping them apart, so they decided to jostle each other.

I'm curious, how come you were in with the Liverpool fans that day? Or were you watching from the other end?

This is not the place for a discussion on the Hillsborough tragedy. Please either start a new thread elsewhere or get back on topic.
This will only go one way and degenerate into the usual.

wibbles, are you just going to carry on accusing me of reading various newspapers that I don't, and watching TV shows that I don't.

You may well live your life around the rubbish you're spoon-fed, but I prefer to have my own opinion, not Rupert Murdoch's, Carla Lane's, or Phil Redmond's.

As far as I'm concerned, I agree with the majority of what Boris Johnson said, even though I don't particularly agree with his politics.

I hope that's 'on the topic' enough for you.

Kisses

Originally posted by smedley
wibbles, are you just going to carry on accusing me of reading various newspapers that I don't, and watching TV shows that I don't.

You may well live your life around the rubbish you're spoon-fed, but I prefer to have my own opinion, not Rupert Murdoch's, Carla Lane's, or Phil Redmond's.

As far as I'm concerned, I agree with the majority of what Boris Johnson said, even though I don't particularly agree with his politics.

I hope that's 'on the topic' enough for you.

Kisses

So back up your points then. What are your views based on?? A few scousers you know??

I watched the telly, best place don't you think?

It's like you said. There was no trouble and at least one set of fans behaved impeccably didn't they?

A civilised crowd would have streamed in without a problem. Not like bulls running around the streets at a fiesta.

No, as I said, they're really good friends of mine, but express any opinion that's not 100% pro-scouse, and they're off, blue-touch paper, yet they'll gladly sit there and slate everywhere else.

As I said though, we're mates, so I put up with it.

I have connections with the whole Hillsborough fracas. My relatives were on the pitch, working for the emergency services and at the hospital looking after people. Therefore I've heard several different versions of what went of during that free-for-all, so pelase don't think I'm speaking from an uneducated point-of-view.

It's just too easy to give something a tag and the emotions are there forever. I was going to say it's time to let it go, but I honestly think we're way past letting this go. I don't even think it should be commemorated by anyone other than family and friends of the deceased, in their own way.

And I hope you'll agree that if the press left it alone, we'd all have to stop hearing about it and the same goes for Bigley and Cilla Black getting done over.

Originally posted by wasp
I watched the telly, best place don't you think?

It's like you said. There was no trouble and at least one set of fans behaved impeccably didn't they?

A civilised crowd would have streamed in without a problem. Not like bulls running around the streets at a fiesta.

I take it from that you didn't even read the brief quote from the Taylor report I posted. Not reading into things seems to be a small problem you have.


Ok, we're going round in circles now, go away, read into it a little, and come back with informed argument, not just with basic, idle observation. There were a lot of factors at play at the event which you are quite clearly unaware of.

Think we should leave it there, as it's not really my place to inform the ill-informed. I accept that in life some people will believe what they want regardless of facts.

Originally posted by smedley
I don't even think it should be commemorated by anyone other than family and friends of the deceased, in their own way.

It is..in their own way
Who else commemorates it now??

I do not feel the same degree of enmity towards "scousers" that contributors like smedley obviously do. However, I will say this; Alan Bennett [the Leeds-born playwright] made a cogent point in his autobiography about the general characteristics of Liverpool culture. Bennett disliked the city immensely, and found Liverpudlian attitudes "depressing". When filming in the city, he retreated to Southport [where I now live- a fiercely Lancastrian town with no love of "scousers"] in an attempt to find gentility and comfort. He said that Liverpudlians were "more like cockneys than Lancashire people", and that he tired of the constant attempts by self-appointed "comedians" to impress him with "their little verbal dances". Bennett went on to say that Liverpudlians had the "arrogance of the artist's model". By this he means that they have featured in far too many "gritty" tv dramas, and been the subject of far too many documentaries and films, so that now they think "there is something special" about themselves and their city. I think he is correct here.
If Sheffield and Sheffielders were as high profile, and attracted the same degree of enmity and abuse in the media, I think their reaction would be quite different from that of Liverpudlians. Rather than engage in self-dramatisation and self-pity, they would shrug their shoulders collectively, and say, "So what?!" I honestly believe that the Yorkshire identity is a much stronger one than anything Liverpool can provide, especially in terms of self-assurance. Maybe it can occasionally warp into selfish rudeness, but it is a strong identity. The Liverpool identity, despite all the "Mersey pride", and "Capital of Culture" propaganda strikes me as rather fragile underneath, so to speak.
Let's debate these points in a civilised way, fellow posters. I notice that there have been some insults traded on this thread. I am not the moderator, but I started the thread and want it to be one in which freedom of speech AND good manners are the order of the day. If Kilaeu and I can debate in a courteous manner [and we very much disagree with each other's points], then so can everyone else. No more insults traded, please. You wouldn't want to face the wrath of Timo...!

... and before I get off, the people that keep going on about "reports" being the gospel regarding what happened....

Tony Blair escaping unscathed and the BBC getting the full blame. That was a "report" too wasn't it?

You are very naive.

Some great points there Timo, and eloquently put. As I keep saying, I don't hate scousers. I just agree with everything you wrote.

Good lad.

Boris Johnson says something stupid. Hardly a shocker is it?

Originally posted by wasp
... and before I get off, the people that keep going on about "reports" being the gospel regarding what happened....

Tony Blair escaping unscathed and the BBC getting the full blame. That was a "report" too wasn't it?

You are very nieve.

I have read many reports about the event. As you have clearly not read anything I have given you a basic watered down brief. Watching telly is not gospel either. Anyway, I agree with timo that we should leave it there.

I suppose I do have a good aspect from living in both Sheffield and Liverpool. Both cities I love; they both have their downsides and they both have their charms. They are both very different, which is what makes life interesting. I appreciate that people will always have likes and dislikes about different places. Though I think it's hard to judge somewhere or its people before you've lived there for a decent length of time. I must admit when I was younger and naive, before I lived in Sheffield, I didn't have a great opinion of the place. Luckily I'm not that prejudiced anymore and don't judge until I have experienced a place fully.

Thanks smedley. I've just sent you a private message .

Originally posted by timo
Thanks smedley. I've just sent you a private message .
awww...love is in the air :gag:
"you log off first"
"no you log off first"
"ok..I'm logging off..........................."
"you didn't log off"
"hee hee ha ha"

Wibbles, you may mock the cyber-affection between dear smedley and I. However, I must say that I did not expect to see you on a Liverpool- related thread like this ever again. I recall that you left the Hillsborough thread in a state of high emotion, vowing never to return, calling fellow contributors "racists" and "bigots". Have you, ahem, calmed down down? Good. Welcome back. xxx

Originally posted by wasp
I watched the telly, best place don't you think?

It's like you said. There was no trouble and at least one set of fans behaved impeccably didn't they?

A civilised crowd would have streamed in without a problem. Not like bulls running around the streets at a fiesta.

Fly in the face of facts if you want to, but do a bit of reading and I think you might learn something - if you get over your prejudice, that is. Mind, it's always nice to see things in such black-and-white terms; negates the need for further thinking.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/taylor.shtm

Whats the betting that one of the scousers gets the last post in on this subject? or should I say lthe last whining paragraph.

Dragon

Hi dragon, how are you today sunshine?

Mod: Can we try to keep off the subject of Hillsborough - there is a thread dedicated to this. Thanks

Originally posted by dragonsoup
Whats the betting that one of the scousers gets the last post in on this subject? or should I say lthe last whining paragraph.

Dragon

hmmm. Not sure. But I do know that reading back through the thread its only "anti-scouse" posters that have resorted to insulting posts and poorly observed generalisms.

Fair point, Tony. We wouldn't want our dear friend Wibbles flouncing off the thread like a cyber Widow Twanky, as was the case on the original Hillsborough thread, making threats and calling names. At least contributors like smedley and wasp, and , if I may be so bold, gentle web-surfers, my good self, can keep our tempers and take a joshing as well as deliver one. Then again, one reflects, we are Sheffield men. In sharp contrast to our Liverpudlian friends, we are confident in our identity and in our place in the world. We do not think there is anything "special" about our city [though we love it dearly], or indeed about ourselves. We realise that Sheffield may not be a "great" city in the sense that London and Edinburgh are. We are aware that England's fourth largest city is often overlooked and regarded as unglamorous. We know that our beloved football teams have achieved relatively little in terms of trophies. We too have known tragedies, such as the decimation of our steel industry which meant hardship for thousands. We do not resort to whinging, whining, petulant gestures and victimhood. Whether we are from Attercliffe or Totley, whether we be Owl or Blade, we have the self-assurance and "backbone" that comes from pride in ourselves, and the knowledge that we come from people as good as [but no better than or more special than] any other on this planet. Your sneers mean nothing to us, Wibbles.

Originally posted by timo
I do not feel the same degree of enmity towards "scousers" that contributors like smedley obviously do. However, I will say this...

I can actualy see Alan Bennets point on this. It is a culture that is quite alien to the outside - especialy I imagine yorkshire. I took a mate to city bar in liverpool and we were approach by a "local" who offered to sell us some cheap fags, asked where we were from (my souse accent is now pretty thin) and told us a joke. Not uncommon in a liverpool bar and to me is quite endearing. My mate however waited for him to leave and said to me "I thought we were gonna get our heads kicked in there".
I had no idea what he was on about, but its just about cultural differences.
Similary when I moved to Leeds I have always found some pubs and other public places a bit intimidating. I always seem to be on my guard in pubs in Leeds because I find the locals - possibly due to my association with the football club (fans and players) as being particularly violent. Another thing that struck me about Leeds and more so Braford, was the complete failure for two cultures to live side by side. Where I lived in Pudsey there was a march by either the BNP or the ANL every week!
I am glad to say that I don't see this same of sort behaviour in sheffield, but then again I don't know a single person native to sheffield. All my mates here are from elsewhere and I don't visit the city centre very often at all.
Is it as bad? Some postings to this forum by the "natives" suggest it might well be.

Kilauea,
Yes you are on to something here re cultural differences. I was once sitting in a restaurant in Liverpool with my wife, and a guy came in and walked straight up to me saying,"Alright big guy, do you wanna buy a shirt?" I was completely baffled at first, but it is not uncommon. His smile, and immediate acceptance of my polite "no thanks" took the tension out of the situation. I will admit to an intrusive thought concerning my fork and his face, when he first approached me. This kind of thing goes back to what I said about the lack of social barriers in Liverpool. Sometimes this can be pleasant, but equally to outsiders it can be disconcerting. As Bennett also said, the accent sometimes doesn't help, with its rising inflection that gives casual encounters "the air of grievance". Maybe we do misunderstand some Liverpool norms. However, I stand by my comments re the "bad" side of the culture. I wonder what Liverpudlians dislike about Sheffield, if indeed it is possible to dislike anything about our lovely city? I know scousers in general appear to hate Mancunians, and regard the peoples of nearby towns [Wigan, Warrington etc] as "Woolleybacks". Do scousers find any Sheffield/Yorkshire traits annoying?

Originally posted by timo
Fair point, Tony. We wouldn't want our dear friend Wibbles flouncing off the thread like a cyber Widow Twanky, as was the case on the original Hillsborough thread, making threats and calling names. At least contributors like smedley and wasp, and , if I may be so bold, gentle web-surfers, my good self, can keep our tempers and take a joshing as well as deliver one. Then again, one reflects, we are Sheffield men. In sharp contrast to our Liverpudlian friends, we are confident in our identity and in our place in the world. We do not think there is anything "special" about our city [though we love it dearly], or indeed about ourselves. We realise that Sheffield may not be a "great" city in the sense that London and Edinburgh are. We are aware that England's fourth largest city is often overlooked and regarded as unglamorous. We know that our beloved football teams have achieved relatively little in terms of trophies. We too have known tragedies, such as the decimation of our steel industry which meant hardship for thousands. We do not resort to whinging, whining, petulant gestures and victimhood. Whether we are from Attercliffe or Totley, whether we be Owl or Blade, we have the self-assurance and "backbone" that comes from pride in ourselves, and the knowledge that we come from people as good as [but no better than or more special than] any other on this planet. Your sneers mean nothing to us, Wibbles.

Lets just get one thing straight. Any joshing you refer to when related to incidents that have affected people so personally demands a response. Now I am big enough to admit that I let my emotions cloud proper discussion and as a result have refrained from commenting further on anything to do with Hillsborough..I will deal with my grief in my own way. Only you continue to mention it and bring it back up in threads. Never in this thread have I mentioned Hillsborough nor will I again.
I can take 'joshing' as much as the next person but to be honest some of the comments that form part of this thread have been insulting with no grounds ,mostly based on stereotypical opinions formed from watching too much telly.
You generalise too much. By saying YOU don't go on about miners and YOU don't do this but to be honest I have heard plenty of whinging, whining and tales of victimhood from people all over the country let alone Liverpool. Your continual whining about scousers attitudes is just as annoying as what your are whining about in the first place.
Let me tell you this as well. We do realise Sheffield is a great city, there IS something special about it, we DO complain about being overlooked, we DO go on about the football teams and why aren't they where we think they should be and so what if we do?? Thats what being proud of where you came from does. You stand up for what you believe in and aren't afraid of telling people so.
Now I have said what I need to say and have no further interest in watching scouse baiting by blinkered, ignorant idiots.

I've always found Liverpool to be very welcoming, even toxteth. Had a few scrapes too, but that's not unique to liverpool either. Also, I must be the only person here who finds the Liverpool accent both musical and pleasant (unless it's delivered in the acrid, glottal scally version).

Always enjoyed my times spent round Lark Lane and Sefton Park, great times, great people.

Funnily enough, when Alan Bennett's diaries were published a few years ago, I went to see him giving a talk at the Everyman Theatre in Liverpool. As there was time given over to questions from the audience, there were naturally a few queries about some of the Liverpool-related comments he'd made in the book.

He spoke entertainingly on the subject, didn't grovel a la Johnson, but did qualify some points - though alas, I don't recall the details as it was a while ago.

It was all given and taken in good spirit - though this was an audience of Alan Bennett fans of course.

As for me, I'm a born and bred Sheffielder with 27 years living in the steel city under my belt. But I've lived in Liverpool for the last 10 years and loved every minute - I adore the place. I recognise many of the cultural differences mentioned in this thread, but personally, I think this kind of variety makes life interesting. Apologies if this is nothing but a platitude. :D

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Always enjoyed my times spent round Lark Lane and Sefton Park, great times, great people.

Sunday afternoons in Keith's wine bar?

You can't beat 'em!

I don't think I hold sheffield in the same disregard as some of its inhabitants do liverpool - otherwise I wouldn't be living here! But I wonder about the point you made about sheffield being quietly confident its identity. I don't think sheffield has much of an identity due to the huge numbers of students from all over the country that seem to shape a good proportion of the city to cater for them.
That is probably why myself and others are happy here. While I am clearly not "at home" here I don't feel I am anywhere "foreign" either.
Sheffield has the air of a great big campus to me, and that's what I do like about it.
What I don't like are the rather backward tendancies that exist re. late drinking and opening hours. Also the city centre is very poor. Possibly due to meadowhell, but in contrast to Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham its well below parr. Even Warrington can stand against sheffield for shopping and that isn't even a city.

With, as you point out the decline in the sheffield steel industry, mining and the demise of the football teams, I do wonder what sheffield has left to shout about? And I wonder if sheffield had the historic culture of liverpool such as the docks and the beatles and the modern influences of 2 premiership football teams, a rejuvinated city centre and the city of culture status. Would sheffield-ers not acutaly be making more noise themselves?

Originally posted by Damon
Sunday afternoons in Keith's wine bar?

You can't beat 'em!

Oh yes! Love that place.

Wibbles, ah eh, calm down, calm down. I respect you for admitting that emotion got the better of you on the Hillsboro thread. I won't mention it again.

Kilauea,
Yes you make a valid point re the contribution Liverpudlians have made to culture, particularly the arts, and the rejuvenated city centre. We probably cannot compete here. However, I disagree with you re your point about Sheffield having, "no identity". I think if you were born here you would disagree. Identities consist of values, norms, shared myths, speech patterns, traditions etc, and Sheffield certainly qualifies here. The identity may not be so immediately apparent as is the case with Liverpool, but I believe that the Sheffield identity is less fragile. Liverpool appears to be regarded by many of its inhabitants as a place almost "under siege", a place unpopular with the media etc. Hence the awareness of Liverpudlian identity on behalf of Liverpudlians; the siege mentality has the effect of shoring up the distinct values and norms. In the case of Sheffield, we have a city which is overlooked if anything rather than high profile. The Sheffield identity is similar to the larger, and equally subtle English identity. It is not under threat, or stigmatised as is the case with Liverpool, so people are not always aware of it all the time . Sheffielders do not wear their identity like a badge, and I believe that this indicates that the identity is so firmly embedded as to be taken for granted, i.e, Englishness.

Agreed Timo - the more you poke liverpool, the more liverpudlian it becomes. You can observe that just in this thread!

I think your right in that you would need to be born in sheffield to see its identity also. From visiting sheffield since a family member moved here about 8 years ago, I have never really got an impression of a city identity. This may be because that family member came to study here and it would be the student places we would hang out. And in all the 8 years all my friends have lived in eccleshall, hunters bar, nether edge and the surrounding areas - though none are students today.

I am getting the impression that there is in fact 2 "Sheffields".

Kilauae,
Glad you can see my point re cultures "under siege". In a sense, Liverpool is a place apart from England in the eyes of Liverpudlians. They often tell me that they "don't feel English". Perhaps the Irish and Welsh contribution to the population outweighs the English? Certainly, there are physical similarities between the population and those of North Wales and Dublin. Many Liverpool women have that very attractive "Atlantic" combination of very dark hair and blue eyes that can be found in great abundance in the "Celtic" parts of Britain. The build of the men appears to me to be more akin to Ireland than Wales or England. There is a predominance, or appears to be, of reasonably tall, slim , dark-haired, blue-eyed types among the men. Rarely have I seen great numbers of well-built, fair types that occur in Yorkshire. As I have said previously, there are higher frequencies of blood type O in Liverpool than in any other "English" region. These high frequencies are almost on par with Ireland and the Basque region. Maybe Liverpool IS different? Summat to think abart int it?!

Finally!!! Some genuine, intelligent opinions. I knew we could do it :thumbsup: :clap: :thumbsup: :clap:

Cheers Wibbles!

I don't know what your on about!! (Says the tall dark haired scouser who's grandparents were welsh).

"Oh yes tha does!", says the fair-haired, well-built Yorkshireman. I really must log off and get some work done today...

Reasonably tall, slim, dark-haired, blue-eyed scouse man talking:

I'm glad to see that this thread has become good natured (even if way off topic). I don't like to argue about cultural differences; I'm much happier agreeing that there are differences and that's what makes it interesting.

I find that I have a lot of pride connected with Liverpool and just as much pride connected with Sheffield. I love showing friends from home around sheff and vice versa. The cities are so very different and I love them both dearly. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world, so there are bad sides to every city. It's good to see past the cracks and see places for their true worth.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I must be the only person here who finds the Liverpool accent both musical and pleasant

like mine?:D

Just kidding. Got to agree on the fabricated scally accent though. Really is quite offensive.

...and a few moments after I left discovered my wallet and watch had been nicked... Eeeeccchhhh... anybody see anything...?

Careful or your likely to bet a right earbashing from those whoa re yet to ahve something stolen by a liverpudlian.

Regarding my observations of Liverpool phenotypes; I am not suggesting that all Liverpool men are dark brown haired, slimly built, with the bright blue eyes associated with the Irish etc. What we are dealing with here are aggregations of physical characteristics. It is possible, of course, to find Liverpool men who possess the mid-brown to blond hair, heavy build and grey-blue eyes associated with predominantly "invader" [Angles, Danes etc] descent. Such men, however, would represent the smallest of minorities. I engage in conjecture here, but I suspect that the vast bulk of men in Liverpool [the "Irish"-looking majority] would have Y chromosomes in Haplo group One; which would take their ancestry back beyond the Celts to the Hunter-Gatherers of the Paleolithic. The bulk of Sheffield men, I suspect, would have Y chromosomes in Haplo Group Two, indicating descent from the Angles and Danes in the main. End of Race Science lecture...

What about Mandy Jordache? It was bad look for her when their Trev went ape? Having it away with his own daughter.

Tsk tsk.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3957095.stm

So let me get this straight...

Liverpudlians, upset with a rival team shouting about Hillsborough, decide to go on the rampage... IN A FOOTBALL STADIUM!

It beggars belief. It really does.

I suppose it would've been Milwall's fault had any Liverpudlians inadvertently killed any other Liverpudlians.

Originally posted by smedley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3957095.stm

So let me get this straight...

Liverpudlians, upset with a rival team shouting about Hillsborough, decide to go on the rampage... IN A FOOTBALL STADIUM!

It beggars belief. It really does.

I suppose it would've been Milwall's fault had any Liverpudlians inadvertently killed any other Liverpudlians.

thats scouseaphobic you know:loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

Having watched the game last night, the trouble seemed to be very localised and occuring from both sets of fans. Trouble with Liverpool fans has been very rare in recent years. this was a small minority incident and not really relevent to this thread.

Still, you'd think with a couple of football stadium related disasters under their belts, the Liverpool contingent would know better.

You say it like all 3000 were involved. it was probably about 20-30 fans involved tops. That would be about 0.01%. I'm glad that Liverpool don't have the trouble that some other teams have. Blades come to mind. Though I feel sorry for the genuine blades fans that have to put up with the filth that is the BBC

Don't you think some of the 3000 other fans might be able to get the 0.000001% to "calm down"?

It's fair enough defending your town, and I know I've generalised somewhat in the past, but surely they should just pinpoint as many of these morons as possible (I assume all grounds have decent CCTV these days), then give them lifetime bans.

I tend to agree with banning anyone who causes trouble at a match. As I said I'm just glad my team doesn't have a big problem with hooligans. So seeing things like this happen is very rare. The article said that some fans have been arrested, so something is being done.

I knew it was only a matter of time before they proved me right again. Didn't think it would be just a week later though.

They still insist on blaming someone else for their actions. Boris must be having a right laugh. I know I am.

There's that word 'they' again. LIke the whole group is one body. Do you speak of all groups in such a way? Race or religion groups for example. Do you take the actions of a minority and apply it to the whole lot? interesting!

I'd bite but for the fact that your so deliberately trying to get a reaction. How far do you want to wander off thread to have a go at scousers?

Why don't you just start a new thread of " I have a irrational fear of liverpudlians as they clearly threaten my way of life"?

Actually, it's their own lives that the mentioned few (hillsborough/millwall) and those around them that they risk.

Originally posted by smedley
Actually, it's their own lives that the mentioned few (hillsborough/millwall) and those around them that they risk.

Sorry, there is the makings of a sentence there but can't quite put it together.
Want to try again?....nah don't bother.

Originally posted by kilauea
I'd bite but for the fact that your so deliberately trying to get a reaction. How far do you want to wander off thread to have a go at scousers?


What wander off a thread called "Boris Johnson's Spectator article criticising Liverpool".

I don't know you tell me?

Originally posted by wasp
What wander off a thread called "Boris Johnson's Spectator article criticising Liverpool".

I don't know you tell me?

good effort. I'm smiling this end.

Originally posted by kilauea
good effort. I'm smiling this end.

Thank god for that. I don't want to be doing my scouse bashing in the wrong place.