..........because she was a female.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1414137.ece




and some wonder why Islam has a bad press:loopy:

paisley and adams.

We all have our nutters

paisley and adams. We all have our nutters

That is just a nonsense reply. Now if you'd used Peter Sutcliffe as an example, maybe. Islamophiles keep repeating the same mantra of trying to justify their maniacs by using the example of the IRA ... I didn't agree with their methods but the first of the names posted was fighting to keep his country as a colony of the UK and the second was fighting to liberate his country.

Apparently this women was assassinated just because she was a women who dared to presume to take her rightful place in the running of her country and because she decided not to wear a headscarf, which we are continually being told is optional anyway:confused:

I can't see any way that even the most determined Islampohile can find an excuse for this criminal and insane act.

paisley and adams.

We all have our nutters


Mr Sarwar appeared relaxed and calm when he told a television channel that he had carried out God’s order to kill women who sinned. “I have no regrets. I just obeyed Allah’s commandment,” he said, adding that Islam did not allow women to hold positions of leadership. “I will kill all those women who do not follow the right path, if I am freed again,” he said.

UpInWath, you like to present yourelf as the intelligent, reasonable voice of Islam, but for God's sake, name me ONE instance when the IRA sacrificed a female human being as inhertently inferior or unworthy of political power (or any kind of independence of mind whatsoever). In fact the first female MP voted into the British parliament was a Sinn Fein politician. I'm sick of islamist apologists pretending that islamic cultures see women as equal, autonomous human beings because it simply doesn't.

I can't see any way that even the most determined Islampohile can find an excuse for this criminal and insane act.

You can't but you arn't a nutter. This bloke is.

That's not an excuse and he will be hanged so he's going to get what he deserves.
My point was that many religions and cultures have their nutters as does Islam but you can't say all christians are mad as spoons by using the example of two and you can't say the same for all muslims using the example of their minority of head cases even if they have more at the moment.

UpInWath, you like to present yourelf as the intelligent, reasonable voice of Islam, but for God's sake, name me ONE instance when the IRA sacrificed a female human being as inhertently inferior or unworthy of political power (or any kind of independence of mind whatsoever). In fact the first female MP voted into the British parliament was a Sinn Fein politician. I'm sick of islamist apologists pretending that islamic cultures see women as equal, autonomous human beings because it simply doesn't.

Thet tried to kill maggie for her thoughts and political ideas. Want some more examples of murders by extremist christian groups of people who hapened to get in the way or didn't agree with them ?

That is just a nonsense reply. Now if you'd used Peter Sutcliffe as an example, maybe. Islamophiles keep repeating the same mantra of trying to justify their maniacs by using the example of the IRA ... I didn't agree with their methods but the first of the names posted was fighting to keep his country as a colony of the UK and the second was fighting to liberate his country.

Apparently this women was assassinated just because she was a women who dared to presume to take her rightful place in the running of her country and because she decided not to wear a headscarf, which we are continually being told is optional anyway:confused:

I can't see any way that even the most determined Islampohile can find an excuse for this criminal and insane act.

Well said ruby. This is absolutely insane, and is purely about someone who feels emasculated by the increasing emancipation of women.

I just hope this doesn't lead to another load of "Muslims all want to .........", which is what usually happens.

Thet tried to kill maggie for her thoughts and political ideas. Want some more examples of murders by extremist christian groups of people who hapened to get in the way or didn't agree with them ?

She wasn't targeted for being a female, but for being the figurehead of all against which Irish Republicans stand. Moreover, any of the Government ministers of the time would have been regarded as targets, as that was/is a political struggle, and not one of oppressing over half of the world's population.

A world of difference.

UpInWath, you like to present yourelf as the intelligent, reasonable voice of Islam, but for God's sake, name me ONE instance when the IRA sacrificed a female human being as inhertently inferior or unworthy of political power (or any kind of independence of mind whatsoever)

She wasn't targeted for being a female, but for being the figurehead of all against which Irish Republicans stand. Moreover, any of the Government ministers of the time would have been regarded as targets, as that was/is a political struggle, and not one of oppressing over half of the world's population.


I was asked to name a woman who was targeted for "any kind of independence of mind whatsoever"

I did as asked.:)

I'm not defending the nut case just stating that we should not blame all of any group for the actions of a few.

I was asked to name a woman who was targeted for "any kind of independence of mind whatsoever"

I did as asked.:)

You didn't. Unfortunately it*'s still alive, and was not the only target at that time :( .

* I can't bring myself to believe that Thatcher was ever human .......

You didn't. Unfortunately it*'s still alive, and was not the only target at that time :( .

* I can't bring myself to believe that Thatcher was ever human .......

So trying to kill some women for the way they think is ok ?

Aaahh as usual our resident haters can't wait to launch another endless tirade. The man who murdered that person is a nut. Apparently his reasons for killing the poor woman is sufficient enough for the haters.


You will not find one single muslim commandment forbidding women from position of power. Indonesia the country with most muslims on earth (not pakistan or saudi arabia my fellow haters) was ruled by shock horror a woman.

Pakistan was ruled by a woman. shock horror. Bangladesh seems to be in love with women presidents.


But let's not get in the way of good ol islamo bashing. But then again Some folks have nothing else to do

Aaahh as usual our resident haters can't wait to launch another endless tirade. The man who murdered that person is a nut. Apparently his reasons for killing the poor woman is sufficient enough for the haters. You will not find one single muslim commandment forbidding women from position of power. Indonesia the country with most muslims on earth (not pakistan or saudi arabia my fellow haters) was ruled by shock horror a woman. Pakistan was ruled by a woman. shock horror. Bangladesh seems to be in love with women presidents. But let's not get in the way of good ol islamo bashing. But then again Some folks have nothing else to do

I'm presuming that you're voicing your horror at this murder and I applaud you for your stance. But you have to admit that we're constantly being shown reports of muslim "clerics" men who talk one way in public and quite another in private, would you agree? And the barrage of negative reports, last week it was chastity belts and now this week, little girls being warped into wanting to wear niquab, it just gets worse and worse. And then people like you will say this is not representative of the religion they know? These people with their mad ideas have to come from somewhere, don't they? And we get the idea that they're being encouraged by certain people in the mosques.

My view is quite clear, provided these people never get into any position of power over my life or the lives of any people I care about, I'll be quite happy for them to believe whatever they like. But the way things are going that can't be guaranteed even in this country, do you disagree?

My view is quite clear, provided these people never get into any position of power over my life or the lives of any people I care about, I'll be quite happy for them to believe whatever they like. But the way things are going that can't be guaranteed even in this country, do you disagree?

Come on ruby you never believe the newspapers do you ?
Yes some muslims are daft but so are some of every other group.
Islam demands that any person converting must do so under free will so you have no need to worry.

Do you know that many thai who have dealings with english tourists think that all english are sex mad perverts who use prositutes and sprew up on the carpet after drinking far to much ? That's what they see and they never look further than the small amount of tourists that they see.

The actions of a vocal minority often show those that are guided by stories without checking the facts a picture that is not as true as it seems.

Come on ruby you never believe the newspapers do you ?

I look, I listen and I take note of what I see and hear in the real world, and I form an opinion. As for believing the newspapers, I'm referring to TV reports on the news programmes, evidence in court cases, etc etc. Filming at demonstrations or riots is easy to mock up, would you say? You can overdub bloodcurdling threats and violent gestures? Alter the wording on placards that are being carried?

Are you saying the undercover filming in the mosques on Ch4 a few weeks ago was faked? On another programme, the women who were trying to get into the mosques to pray were not really being turned away and threatened with violence? That women are regarded as unequal in the matters of their word, their human rights and sexual abuse etc. Are all these things untrue? If so, the Muslim Council should be asking for the BBC, ITV, Channel4 etc to be chastised for bearing false witness.

It wouldn't really matter if the Muslim population was going to stay as the small minority that it is now, or be less demanding. But even the CEO of Sheffield Council said the other day that the minority population is set to become 30% in Sheffield in the future. I always thought that after a few generations of living in a democratic country, all this religious observance would have disappeared but the younger generation of Muslim seem to be becoming more militant and fanatical and arrogant as time goes by.

It's a serious challenge to our autonomy as a democratic, secular country.

paisley and adams.

We all have our nutters

Did they go around blowing womens brains out in the name of God, mmmmmm Dont think so.

So trying to kill some women for the way they think is ok ?

Not the person's thinking, but actions; the gender was irrelevant. In this case the gender was the reason.

But you have to admit that we're constantly being shown reports of muslim "clerics" men who talk one way in public and quite another in private, would you agree? And the barrage of negative reports, last week it was chastity belts and now this week, little girls being warped ...... [rant snipped]

We must all understand that news editors choose what you see, hear and read for whatever reasons they have that day.

Try to look at it another way. She died whilst in a political and societal position that inherently challenges the past and is part of the way forward to a more inclusive future.

Perhaps if you thought of her as a latter day Emmiline Pankhurst or Emily Davison you might find it more comfortable?

But if you want to go around broadly blaming Muslims, mosques, Islam, clerics or even more extraordinarily "Muslim apologists" then your mindset is as bad as the bloke that pulled the trigger.

But if you want to go around broadly blaming Muslims, mosques, Islam, clerics or even more extraordinarily "Muslim apologists" then your mindset is as bad as the bloke that pulled the trigger.

Are you a Muslim, Tony? If not, how do you know how having those ideas forced into your mind everday from being a small child could affect your mind? I could say to you "if you want to going around being an apologist, your mindset is just the same as his".

I still don't see any wholehearted condemnation of these actions from most Muslims, on SF or anywhere else. It's all pussyfooting around, they won't come straight out and say they don't believe these things. Perhaps they're afraid to for fear of the consequences?

I think trying to mask what happened to this woman by comparing her to a suffragette is just off the wall. She wasn't protesting against Islam in any way, not like the suffragettes were actually fighting against the vested interests of their day, she was just doing her job and killed solely because she was a woman. Is that not the fact of the matter?

If it isn't and the things he said afterwards he didn't believe solely because of his faith and the clerics in the mosques don't believe them solely because of their faith, why not just come out and say so? And stop teaching these ideas and stop these old men spouting them at every opportunity?

I think trying to mask what happened to this woman by comparing her to a suffragette is just off the wall. She wasn't protesting against Islam in any way, not like the suffragettes were actually fighting against the vested interests of their day, she was just doing her job and killed solely because she was a woman. Is that not the fact of the matter?

Did you read the article?

Not the person's thinking, but actions; the gender was irrelevant. In this case the gender was the reason.


So killing for political reasons is OK ?

So killing for political reasons is OK ?

Killing is never ok, but we are talking about two wholly different things here. The IRA consider/ed their actions as part of an organised war against the UK.

This was the action of a fanatic because of a woman's choice of clothes, and indeed the fact that she was female.

The two cannot be linked.

In fact the first female MP voted into the British parliament was a Sinn Fein politician.

Ah, I know this one, she was a Unionist and American too, Nancy Astor.

I still don't see any wholehearted condemnation of these actions from most Muslims, on SF or anywhere else. It's all pussyfooting around, they won't come straight out and say they don't believe these things. Perhaps they're afraid to for fear of the consequences?

Mmmm. I find it rather odd that you seem to put so emphasis on your expectation that 'most Muslims' should be seen to condemn this murder. There are perhaps a handful of regular posters on here who are Muslim - is it perhaps the case that they don't feel the need to jump up and down decrying a murder, or maybe that they're tired of 'Islam is this, that or the other' threads?
I feel it's a rather poor yardstick to use to make judgements by. For example I have not infrequently been called an apologist for paedophilia for my failure to join in the p*ssing contest that ensues every time there's a prominent case of abuse against children. ( You know the kind of thing - 'I hate paedophiles so much I'd bathe them in battery acid after peeling them with a rusty spoon' etc) The problem being of course, that some people assume from such a silence that one actually approves of the thing one isn't shouting about.
I would imagine that were you to approach a dozen random Muslims on the streets of Sheffield today and ask them if they approve of ministers being shot for trying to advance the cause of women in Pakistan, that you'd get very few takers.

Killing is never ok, but we are talking about two wholly different things here. The IRA consider/ed their actions as part of an organised war against the UK.

This was the action of a fanatic because of a woman's choice of clothes, and indeed the fact that she was female.

The two cannot be linked.

But you said
"You didn't. Unfortunately it*'s still alive, and was not the only target at that time .

* I can't bring myself to believe that Thatcher was ever human ......."

That suggest you would have liked her to die.

Maybe you could explain how killing is never ok but it's unfortunate it's still alive in the context of the IRA murder attempt I mentioned.

Do you know that many thai who have dealings with english tourists think that all english are sex mad perverts who use prositutes and sprew up on the carpet after drinking far to much ? That's what they see and they never look further than the small amount of tourists that they see.

All Brits are guilty by association because we are part of the same culture where a high visible minority drink to excess and act like rabbits on heat in public.

If you are a Millwall fan at an away match then the police treat you all with distrust because of the repretation of a highly visible minority of violent supporters.

If you follow a religion that suppresses women and is plagued with extremist nutters then you are going to find yourself guily by association too.

We're all judged by not only our own actions but those of our kindred. That's life.

We're all judged by not only our own actions but those of our kindred. That's life.

I agree but we must always look past the image we are given and see what is behind it.

Thet tried to kill maggie for her thoughts and political ideas. Want some more examples of murders by extremist christian groups of people who hapened to get in the way or didn't agree with them ?
Paramilitaries did not have religion as their main motiviation. They were primarily political lunatics. It was more about being British vs being Irish.

But you said
"You didn't. Unfortunately it*'s still alive, and was not the only target at that time .

* I can't bring myself to believe that Thatcher was ever human ......."

That suggest you would have liked her to die.

Maybe you could explain how killing is never ok but it's unfortunate it's still alive in the context of the IRA murder attempt I mentioned.

Not at all. I would rather that she were never around. I already have explained the second point in the context that it was a war in the eyes of the IRA, not an attempt on one person's life by a maniac.

Clearly two different things.

I'm not defending the nut case just stating that we should not blame all of any group for the actions of a few.

So should we not blame the Nazi party for what happened to the Jews, and just blame the people that were convicted of war crimes; no they all supported the regime that killed thousands so we blame the whole Nazi party, Should we blame just Tony Blair for the state of our government, no we blame the whole of the labour party.
Islamic scholars need to come clean and tell the truth that some points in there holy book aren’t that good or holy and learn to move on and take just the good points.
Before you say I know the Christian religion has just as much crap in it but the religious Christians seam to mostly have forgotten the bad parts from there book.

So should we not blame the Nazi party for what happened to the Jews, and just blame the people that were convicted of war crimes; no they all supported the regime that killed thousands so we blame the whole Nazi party.

well we seem to have forgiven the present pope :hihi:

We must all understand that news editors choose what you see, hear and read for whatever reasons they have that day.

I find it hard to believe with the amount of information available to us today that any 1 "editor" could lead the majority of this country to believe what he wants them too, it would full cooperation between all the newspapers, TV internet, radio and smoke signal



But if you want to go around broadly blaming Muslims, mosques, Islam, clerics or even more extraordinarily "Muslim apologists" then your mindset is as bad as the bloke that pulled the trigger.

When the book that you read from spells out hate, conquest and supremacy and there is no rebuttal about its adverse contents and scriptures by the leading religious leaders or its followers then the blame has to be spread over all its followers.

If Muslims would ever come out and say “yeah that bit in the book is b******s but we don’t really listen to that.” Then the whole Muslim society would have no blame to bear, but it doesn’t happen and I doubt it will, because if anyone did and there fellow Muslims found out who they were it would be chop chop time.

Ah, I know this one, she was a Unionist and American too, Nancy Astor.

Actually Nancy Astor was the first female MP to take her seat in parliament. The Sinn Fein MP was the first elected, but for obvious reasons refused to actually sit in the house.

In answer to halibut, and everyone else who uses the 'tiny minority' argument in every debate about Islam, what myself, Rubydazzler, Zamo etc are talking about is the underlying cultural attitude that women are lesser than men, belong to men, should obey men, should not be too assertive or dominant or independent etc. This attitude is very widespread in our mixed communities, and any real efforts to loosen the grip and allow girls the genuine option of choice and freedom is severely resisted. Others say that 'muslims' (en masse) are all happy with what they are born into. In fact thousands of women and girls are coerced and prevented from being free to follow their own destiny by the strength of family and community pressure. That is very common, and that is what we object to. Unlike other religious and ethnic groups in the country, the hardline, conservative wing is actually strengthening, rather than weakening.

I agree but we must always look past the image we are given and see what is behind it.

Indeed we should.

Using Zamo's analogy about football, there is an inherent hypocrisy about such matters.

Before the 2002 world cup, the police were given the power to refuse anyone who "looked like a football hooligan" the right get on a plane for Japan. Apart from the odd mutterings, it was generally regarded as an excellent idea, given our recent violent showings in 1998 and 2000.

Fast forward to the London bombings. After the event, (transport) police were effectively asked to target anyone who might look like a suicide bomber, an admittedly generic undertaking, but one would assume those of Arabic / Asian / north African descent would be in the firing line. This move was widely condemned (in certain right on circles) as improper, and nothing short of racist. I never understood this. Who were the police supposed to be suspicious off? Old white men with shopping trolleys?

Frankly, I can’t see the difference, except for the fact that a lot more noise was made about the latter scenario, when in reality, the former was far more draconian.

Indeed we should.

Using Zamo's analogy about football, there is an inherent hypocrisy about such matters.

Before the 2002 world cup, the police were given the power to refuse anyone who "looked like a football hooligan" the right get on a plane for Japan. Apart from the odd mutterings, it was generally regarded as an excellent idea, given our recent violent showings in 1998 and 2000.

Fast forward to the London bombings. After the event, (transport) police were effectively asked to target anyone who might look like a suicide bomber, an admittedly generic undertaking, but one would assume those of Arabic / Asian / north African descent would be in the firing line. This move was widely condemned (in certain right on circles) as improper, and nothing short of racist. I never understood this. Who were the police supposed to be suspicious off? Old white men with shopping trolleys?

Frankly, I can’t see the difference, except for the fact that a lot more noise was made about the latter scenario, when in reality, the former was far more draconian.

Exactly, I actually remember watching one news clip at the time of the bombings and in the background you could see a policem looking in some old ladies handbag!?! :loopy:

All he found was a knuckle duster and some skunk... she was a Millwall supporter. :D

I'm presuming that you're voicing your horror at this murder and I applaud you for your stance. But you have to admit that we're constantly being shown reports of muslim "clerics" men who talk one way in public and quite another in private, would you agree? And the barrage of negative reports, last week it was chastity belts and now this week, little girls being warped into wanting to wear niquab, it just gets worse and worse. And then people like you will say this is not representative of the religion they know? These people with their mad ideas have to come from somewhere, don't they? And we get the idea that they're being encouraged by certain people in the mosques.

My view is quite clear, provided these people never get into any position of power over my life or the lives of any people I care about, I'll be quite happy for them to believe whatever they like. But the way things are going that can't be guaranteed even in this country, do you disagree?


You know what? if these muslim clerics are truely muslim they would recall muhammed's last wife leading and commanding muslim armies when he died.

look at pakistan. 98% muslim. Some say they are mostly an extremist nation. And yet they elected a woman to be prime minister. Not once but twice!. And yet the newspapers and people like you have the temerity to call these nutters muslim.


Don't worry though. There is no way in hell this country will be run by muslims. There is more chance of jimi hendrix playing live at woodstock tomorrow.

Half the stories printed on the medis are used to shepherd the ignorant and the bigot even if they are false. If every single muslim leaves this country shores tomorrow these haters would still moan about something else. Sometimes i wish i did.

So should we not blame the Nazi party for what happened to the Jews, and just blame the people that were convicted of war crimes; no they all supported the regime that killed thousands so we blame the whole Nazi party, Should we blame just Tony Blair for the state of our government, no we blame the whole of the labour party.
Islamic scholars need to come clean and tell the truth that some points in there holy book aren’t that good or holy and learn to move on and take just the good points.
Before you say I know the Christian religion has just as much crap in it but the religious Christians seam to mostly have forgotten the bad parts from there book.

Blame all muslims! How convinient for you to lump the actions of few with others! May be if one of your close relatives or a member of your family commits a crime we should start blaming you as well!

Benazir Bhutto wasn't assassinated and she was President Prime Minister.

Guilt by association is a poor argument.

Hehe muslims kill women because they believe they should stay at home. But muslim countries one of them so called extremist country (target of many bigots here in the uk) elect women as their leaders.


And predictably the bigots slide of a tangent

Half the stories printed on the medis are used to shepherd the ignorant and the bigot even if they are false. If every single muslim leaves this country shores tomorrow these haters would still moan about something else. Sometimes i wish i did.

So was she not murdered then?

Guilt by association is a poor argument.

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, and they benefit from the association, nobody complains. But when that association results in a negative, how quickly the cries about individual unfairness begin!

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, then they have to accept not only the highs but also the lows, not only the pro's but also the cons, not only the profits but also the loses, not only the kudos but also the critism.

You know what? if these muslim clerics are truely muslim they would recall muhammed's last wife leading and commanding muslim armies when he died.

look at pakistan. 98% muslim. Some say they are mostly an extremist nation. And yet they elected a woman to be prime minister. Not once but twice!. And yet the newspapers and people like you have the temerity to call these nutters muslim.


Don't worry though. There is no way in hell this country will be run by muslims. There is more chance of jimi hendrix playing live at woodstock tomorrow.

Half the stories printed on the medis are used to shepherd the ignorant and the bigot even if they are false. If every single muslim leaves this country shores tomorrow these haters would still moan about something else. Sometimes i wish i did.

Wow I wish I could up sticks and move to the wonderful enlightened country that is Pakistan, rather than being stuck here in this lousy, racist dump with its anti muslim government, crappy health service, useless welfare state, rotten job prospects and pitiful standards of living.

Somehow I don't think I would be welcome?

Elan Tedrona, Pakistan has only just abolished the implementation of sharia law for rape victims, in the face of widespread protest. That is not a culture that's up to speed with female emancipation. In fact the reaction showed that extremist attitudes are rather common.

The man who committed this crime did it because he was committed to killing all sinful women. He said if he was released he would kill some more. He had already been questioned in relation to the killings of 4 prostitutes. He saw the involvement in politics of this woman as sinful.

He has more in common with Peter Sutcliff than with anyone else, to be honest his religion has nothing to do with it, he is a psycho.

The man who committed this crime did it because he was committed to killing all sinful women. He said if he was released he would kill some more. He had already been questioned in relation to the killings of 4 prostitutes. He saw the involvement in politics of this woman as sinful.

He has more in common with Peter Sutcliff than with anyone else, to be honest his religion has nothing to do with it, he is a psycho.

Her "sin" was apparently not wearing Muslim clothing and campaigning for emancipation of women. If he had made up this "sin" himself then you could argue the lone nutter theory but the truth is his religion taught him to believe it.

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, and they benefit from the association, nobody complains. But when that association results in a negative, how quickly the cries about individual unfairness begin!

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, then they have to accept not only the highs but also the lows, not only the pro's but also the cons, not only the profits but also the loses, not only the kudos but also the critism.

Sure, people are happy to accept positive prejudice, and are likely to reject negative prejudice.

It's still prejudice.

Her "sin" was apparently not wearing Muslim clothing and campaigning for emancipation of women. If he had made up this "sin" himself then you could argue the lone nutter theory but the truth is his religion taught him to believe it.

And in the same way Peter Sutcliff was a christian who killed prostitutes because his religion taught him they were sinful. Every culture and religion has nutters who take it to extremes.

And in the same way Peter Sutcliff was a christian who killed prostitutes because his religion taught him they were sinful. Every culture and religion has nutters who take it to extremes.

Indeed, but some have a lot more nutters than others.

Sure, people are happy to accept positive prejudice, and are likely to reject negative prejudice.

It's still prejudice.

Justice on an individual level is not always practical or possible Phan.

So Muslims accept that women are equal if they do I have never seen any evidence of that. How come a lot of Police forces in this country have departments whose job it is to help Muslim women and girls find new lives where their families can not find them? Because they have chosen to do something which the family does not agree with so they are in fear of their lives does this sound like they have freedom of choice I think not.

Her "sin" was apparently not wearing Muslim clothing and campaigning for emancipation of women. If he had made up this "sin" himself then you could argue the lone nutter theory but the truth is his religion taught him to believe it.

My girlfriend is a muslim. She wears 'normal' clothes and no one has had a go at her. She and all her mates wear the same sort of things.
The only slight difference from europeans is that they don't have any breast or leg showing.
She does not wear head covering except if she goes to a mosque where it is required. There is no need for face coverings or ninja clothes as they are now called in many muslim countries.
She stays covered out of respect for herself ,her religion and now me as her future husband.
This nutter's religion didn't teach him to murder but a corrupt version of it that some few muslims follow.

So Muslims accept that women are equal if they do I have never seen any evidence of that. How come a lot of Police forces in this country have departments whose job it is to help Muslim women and girls find new lives where their families can not find them? Because they have chosen to do something which the family does not agree with so they are in fear of their lives does this sound like they have freedom of choice I think not.


Are all muslims the same ?

That is just a nonsense reply. Now if you'd used Peter Sutcliffe as an example, maybe. Islamophiles keep repeating the same mantra of trying to justify their maniacs by using the example of the IRA ... I didn't agree with their methods but the first of the names posted was fighting to keep his country as a colony of the UK and the second was fighting to liberate his country.

Apparently this women was assassinated just because she was a women who dared to presume to take her rightful place in the running of her country and because she decided not to wear a headscarf, which we are continually being told is optional anyway:confused:

I can't see any way that even the most determined Islampohile can find an excuse for this criminal and insane act.

No one ever tries to make an excuse, what they try to do is counter the opinions of islamaphobes who seize on any action like this to vilify the entire religion.

Just as Jade from Big Brother does not represent the average english person, same way a murderous nutter in Pakistan does not represent over a billion muslims.

No one ever tries to make an excuse, what they try to do is counter the opinions of islamaphobes who seize on any action like this to vilify the entire religion.

I suppose it just reads like excuses to me ... to be fair, I would vilify anyone of any religion who was doing these things. I'm just not seeing the level of condemnation about the oppression of women and children that I'd like to see from either practitioners or people like yourself, which is what makes me so angry.

The reason why you don't see the condemnation in the press from muslim groups is because it does not make good newspaper sales. The media rather focus on idiots such as Abu Hamza and Umar Bakri.

The reason why you don't see the condemnation in the press from muslim groups is because it does not make good newspaper sales. The media rather focus on idiots such as Abu Hamza and Umar Bakri.

I didn't mean in the press, I meant on here. There always seems to be a preponderance of male voices finding reasons to excuse these acts and not enough wholehearted condemnation. There's too much excusing of oppression and misguided religious fervour and not enough of 'this is just plain wrong and we won't put up with it any longer' imo.

As a survivor of the years of fighting for women's equality, it disappoints me that it looks as though we have the battle still to fight in some arenas.

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, and they benefit from the association, nobody complains. But when that association results in a negative, how quickly the cries about individual unfairness begin!

When an individual is part of a group, club, religion, community, business or country, then they have to accept not only the highs but also the lows, not only the pro's but also the cons, not only the profits but also the loses, not only the kudos but also the critism.

Come on Zamo, so what you are saying is that if you join a cycling club and one of the members gets jailed for something, then you are guilty by association?

Come on Zamo, so what you are saying is that if you join a cycling club and one of the members gets jailed for something, then you are guilty by association?

You don't exactly benefit from being in a cycling club, do you? Other than maybe in the saddle sores department :)

I imagined when I read this post that Zamo means associations such as Freemasons, Rotary Club, Lions, political parties - where there may be a perceived advantage to being a member but that when accusations of nepotism, favours, corruption are bandied about, everyone is somehow considered guilty by association?

You don't exactly benefit from being in a cycling club, do you? Other than maybe in the saddle sores department :)

I imagined when I read this post that Zamo means associations such as Freemasons, Rotary Club, Lions, political parties - where there may be a perceived advantage to being a member but that when accusations of nepotism, favours, corruption are bandied about, everyone is somehow considered guilty by association?

I said a cycling club because I saw in Zamo's profile that he enjoys cycling. But even so if he chose to belong to say the Labour party and an MP acted corruptly then I don't think you could say all MP's are corrupt, although on second thoughts...........:D

But you see what I mean, you can't tar everyone with the same brush and I get the feeling everyone on here is condemning Islam and perhaps Christianity also but just because there is one bad egg in the basket it doesn't mean they are all rotten surly?

I didn't mean in the press, I meant on here. There always seems to be a preponderance of male voices finding reasons to excuse these acts and not enough wholehearted condemnation. There's too much excusing of oppression and misguided religious fervour and not enough of 'this is just plain wrong and we won't put up with it any longer' imo.

As a survivor of the years of fighting for women's equality, it disappoints me that it looks as though we have the battle still to fight in some arenas.

Like most do-gooders there are a whole list of axioms which I hold dear: slavery is wrong, rape is wrong, racism is wrong, etc., etc., but you get my drift. If, when answering a thread, we listed all of these then no-one would read past the first paragraph.

Oppression of women is one of those givens so, when a thread such as this one starts blaming a religion for the actions of individuals, you just have to accept that we disagree with the individual's action but also need to disagree with the generalisation that it's the religion at fault.

Oppression of women is one of those givens so, when a thread such as this one starts blaming a religion for the actions of individuals, you just have to accept that we disagree with the individual's action but also need to disagree with the generalisation that it's the religion at fault.


I think we need to start blaming individuals for the perpetuation of a religion that clearly still oppresses women. Perhaps it's time to understand a little less and condemn a little more. Making excuses for an historical text, and its followers, is not only a denial of responsibility, but a travesty of justice.

I think we need to start blaming individuals for the perpetuation of a religion that clearly still opresses women. Perhaps it's time to understand a little less and condemn a little more. Making excuses for an historical text, and its followers, is not only a denial of responsibility, but a travesty of justice.

O dear! O dear me. :(

you just have to accept that we disagree with the individual's action but also need to disagree with the generalisation that it's the religion at fault.

See, you're doing it again! Of course, the religion is at fault! It's what they teach. It's written down in black and white on the page ... individuals might say they don't believe it but I've yet to see any report of a wholesale walk out in a mosque in protest at the teaching. Fundamentalist Christianity was the same and there are still some people that would like us to live that way, JW and PB to name but two Christian cults but we've just ignored those tenets and implemented laws to make sure that women and minority rights are respected. If it's untrue that some Muslims are trying to get the Government to accept Sharia law in some parts of UK, just come straight out and tell us.

Even when they were caught redhanded in Birmingham, they still came up with excuses as to why these people were allowed to preach in their mosque. I really find it hard to understand why people are defending Islam, given that these things are a basic part of that religion.

http://www.alternet.org/story/11548/

Since 9/11 the name Osama as a name for young Muslim boys has soared.

It is nonsense to say that the majority of muslims do not agree with his aims.
They must even agree with his tactics, if they are naming their sons after him.

It is equivalent to naming your son Adolf during WW2.
It shows where your alliegance lays.

http://www.alternet.org/story/11548/

Since 9/11 the name Osama as a name for young Muslim boys has soared.

It is nonsense to say that the majority of muslims do not agree with his aims.
They must even agree with his tactics, if they are naming their sons after him.

It is equivalent to naming your son Adolf during WW2.
It shows where your alliegance lays.
NAAAH!, the two two compare at all, with Adolf the idol of one or two on here was in a legue of his own whereas Osama is a hyped up designer lable for the Americans to blame everything on. I would compare Osama Bin Laden to someone like Ian Smith of Rhodesia, a hate monger indeed of the first order, but that didn't stop people naming their kids Ian did it?
Bin Laden is a hero figure for those of your type on the other side who blame the Christians for all the troubles in the world because they see the the Americans and the British crusaders invading Muslim countries. They probably use Zamo's yardstick of reasoning to conclude all Christians are the enemy and therefore should be blamed for the suffering caused to their people, and therefore you have justifucation for attacking civillians as targets. What is the difference in reasoning between Zamo and the terrorsts for a wholesale blame for an entire people for actions of a few of it's members?

Just to get back on topic I quote from the article that,"Ms Usman, a married mother of two sons, joined the pro-Musharraf Pakistan Muslim League after being elected in 2002. A strong supporter of the President’s policy of “enlightened moderation” - designed to tackle extremism" But from some of the posts here it seems that she was some westerner gone there to help, and the ungreatful people murdered her. She was a Pakistani, and ellected by muslim pakistanis and became a victim of this extremist lunatic. I feel some on here should come off their high horses and get to grip with reality that even within Muslim society differences exist and more good people than bad. The second point to mention is it isn't up for debate wheather muslims should be muslims or not and they in turn don't feel they need to justify being muslims to people who know little about their religion other than their own tiny perceptions.

Are all muslims the same ?

I never said it was all Muslims there are obviously some who are not oppressed. But on the whole Muslim women are considered 2nd class citizens and have to do what they are told. I fail to see how people can deny this.
I have nothing against any religion. I just do not like to see injustice and people treated badly just because of their sex.

How do muslim women reconcile their dual status in this country?

At home they are treat as second class, with no say or rights, when they meet in their daily round Englishmen who treat them as equal members of the community.

How do these women see us?
As we are decent and civil to them, presumably they consider us to weak and wimpish in comparasion to the swaggering, domineering males they see at home.
Their behaviour when they are out and about, dressed like the scrap dealers in Star Wars, certainly gives this impression.

I have seens posts from muslim men on here, but am not aware of any from the female section of that community.
It would be interesting to know their opinions.

Bin Laden is a hero figure for those of your type on the other side who blame the Christians for all the troubles in the world because they see the the Americans and the British crusaders invading Muslim countries. They probably use Zamo's yardstick of reasoning to conclude all Christians are the enemy and therefore should be blamed for the suffering caused to their people, and therefore you have justifucation for attacking civillians as targets. What is the difference in reasoning between Zamo and the terrorsts for a wholesale blame for an entire people for actions of a few of it's members?

Collective responsibility is a fact of life the world over.

I don't agree with the war in Iraq but I can understand why people in the Middle East would apportion me with some collective blame as a British citizen. Rightly so, we need to get our house in order because we are out of order.

I've never been caught up in football violence but I understood why Uefa banned English supporters in the 80's. Rightly so, we needed to get our house in order because we were out of order.

It is the same at all levels. When a Labour PM takes us into an illegal and unpopular war, then local councillors pay the price at the next local elections. When a rogue trader brings down an entire bank, then everyone working for the bank loses their jobs.

It isn't always fair on an individual level but life isn't fair. The problem with extremist Islam is global and affects billions of people. How on earth do you expect to tackle it without making any generalisations or assigning any collective responsibilities?

"Yeah but... most Muslims are moderate." "Yeah but... most Muslims don't support extremism". "Yeah but... I didn't do it." Yeah, but so what?!?!? The rest of the neighbourhood doesn't care which one of you shat in your backyard. All we know is it's there and we don't like the smell. It might be unfair that you get lumbered with the job of cleaning up the mess but it is still your responsibility.

Collective responsibility is a fact of life the world over.

I don't agree with the war in Iraq but I can understand why people in the Middle East would apportion me with some collective blame as a British citizen. Rightly so, we need to get our house in order because we are out of order.

I've never been caught up in football violence but I understood why Uefa banned English supporters in the 80's. Rightly so, we needed to get our house in order because we were out of order.

It is the same at all levels. When a Labour PM takes us into an illegal and unpopular war, then local councillors pay the price at the next local elections. When a rogue trader brings down an entire bank, then everyone working for the bank loses their jobs.

It isn't always fair on an individual level but life isn't fair. The problem with extremist Islam is global and affects billions of people. How on earth do you expect to tackle it without making any generalisations or assigning any collective responsibilities?

"Yeah but... most Muslims are moderate." "Yeah but... most Muslims don't support extremism". "Yeah but... I didn't do it." Yeah, but so what?!?!? The rest of the neighbourhood doesn't care which one of you shat in your backyard. All we know is it's there and we don't like the smell. It might be unfair that you get lumbered with the job of cleaning up the mess but it is still your responsibility.
So would you accept the terrorist justification for 7/7 as a revenge attack for the Iraq invasion? They like your reasoning thought british s***ting in the Iraqi back yard was justification enough to murder 52 innocent people. Have you no intellect to distinguish at all between right and wrong? Those people on the trains and buses that day wern't responsible for the war but clearly the terrorist used your yardstick to apportion blame.

I never said it was all Muslims there are obviously some who are not oppressed. But on the whole Muslim women are considered 2nd class citizens and have to do what they are told. I fail to see how people can deny this.
I have nothing against any religion. I just do not like to see injustice and people treated badly just because of their sex.

In what way are muslim women treated badly?
I don't disagree that in SOME muslim countries they are treated in a different way to men but it does follow that they are badly treated.

You could consider the way some white english 'men (http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/sundaymercury/news/tm_headline=bnp-thug-branded-a-wife-beater&method=full&objectid=18546705&siteid=50002-name_page.html)' treat their wives.

Worth a read (http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/newsncom.php?itemid=2681)

I didn't mean in the press, I meant on here. There always seems to be a preponderance of male voices finding reasons to excuse these acts and not enough wholehearted condemnation. There's too much excusing of oppression and misguided religious fervour and not enough of 'this is just plain wrong and we won't put up with it any longer' imo.

As a survivor of the years of fighting for women's equality, it disappoints me that it looks as though we have the battle still to fight in some arenas.

I can condemn the person who did and their actions without having to condemn every person who follows the religion.
In much the same way i can condemn a Christian for blowing up an abortion clinic without having to condemn every single one of them and declaring that they are about to bring down civilisation as we know it.

=Cyclone;1994295]I can condemn the person who did and their actions without having to condemn every person who follows the religion.
In much the same way i can condemn a Christian for blowing up an abortion clinic without having to condemn every single one of them and declaring that they are about to bring down civilisation as we know it.

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.:)

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.:)

oh, fr8neck .... thank you. At last!!! a man with the wit to understand the problem ....

"Deliberate evasion". Pithy, succinct and very to the point. That's exactly what I've been getting at.

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.:)

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

You can't but you arn't a nutter. This bloke is.

That's not an excuse and he will be hanged so he's going to get what he deserves.
My point was that many religions and cultures have their nutters as does Islam but you can't say all christians are mad as spoons by using the example of two and you can't say the same for all muslims using the example of their minority of head cases even if they have more at the moment.

Will he get hanged? Did those who carried out the Bali atrocity get hanged? Their leader got 30 months, later cut to 15 months - for 202 murders!!!! or one month for every 13 slaughtered in cold blood. We are talking here about a religion which hangs 16 year old girls for having sharp tongues, and promotes the slaughter of non-Muslims. And according to the supremacist ideology of Islam, one Muslim is worth 2 Christians, 4 Jews, and 8 polytheists (which they regard Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs etc as), and as one Muslim man is worth two women, it can be safely said that they regard one Muslim man as to be the equal of 4 Christian, 8 Jewish and 16 Hindu women. And do you know how hatred of the Westerners is promoted in the Arab, Iranian and Pakistani media. Do you know that a fat slob Egyptian pop star made a pop video glorifying the 911 atrocity and blamed Jews for it, just as they blame Jews for every terrorist atrocity carried out in the West. And at the end of the day, it is time people in Britain and throughout the Western world studied the history of Islam, its conquests, its treatment of women and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries, the hated poll tax that non-Muslims have to pay in many Muslim countries, the clothes they have to wear which marks them out as non-Muslims, and the hateful texts of the Koran, Sira and hadith, the principles of abrogation where a verse gets overriden by another that has been deemed 'an improvement' - and remember the verses that call for Jihad (from the Medinan era where Islam has become strong) override the so-called peaceful ones from the Meccan era where Islam was weak, and the word 'peace' means something different to a Muslim than what it does for a non-Muslim, because whilst peace means no war to a non-Muslim, peace to a Muslim refers to a world conquered by Islam, where no other religion exists. And did you know that non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries aren't even allowed to ride a horse (they can only ride a donkey)? And rape victims in Muslim countries have to produce four male witnesses to escape punishment for being the victim. And this could have been the way of life in Britain, France, Spain etc but for a few things: Charles Martel's victories at Tours and Poitiers in 732, the Reconquista in Spain (722 - 1492), the victories of Graf von Salm and Jan Sobieski at the Siege and Battles of Vienna (1529 and 1683). And these things DO rankle in the minds of Muslims, and one tenet of Islam is that "Once a land is gained, it is forever Muslim, and if it is lost it should be returned to dar al Islam - the House of Islam". This is the reason why the Arabs want Israel destroying - because it is former Muslim land (and was obviously Jewish before then) - and if Israel falls - look for them demanding the return of al-Andalus (their name for Spain - not Andalusia), and all former Ottoman lands - Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Armenia etc.

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

Who said that anyway? You introduced that particular red herring into the debate.

I agree that we would be better off without religion at all. But if we have to have it, the fundamentalist, all abrahamic religions would be better if all the references vis-a-vis men and women were removed. I still don't think you're following my argument though which fr8neck has managed to grasp easily enough. If you could just keep in mind that she was murdered purely because she was a woman, dressed 'wrong' and trying to achieve rights for women in her country and that in certain areas here in UK, men are trying to introduce these archaic laws ... and answer on that basis. As I said previously, it's always a preponderance of male discourse trying to cover up and otherwise excuse this type of injustice.

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.


It would be nice if the second class status of women in Moslem society was the sole preserve of 'fringe extremists'. However, that is not the case: it is persistent and endemic, it is the norm.

Violence to justify it's enforcement is indulged by both civil and religious authorities.

As pointed out above: trying to evade facing this by introducing 'red herrings' regarding nutcasery within Christian cults, or, for that matter, those of Eskimos or Pygmies, does you no credit at all.:)

The man who committed this crime did it because he was committed to killing all sinful women. He said if he was released he would kill some more. He had already been questioned in relation to the killings of 4 prostitutes. He saw the involvement in politics of this woman as sinful.

He has more in common with Peter Sutcliff than with anyone else, to be honest his religion has nothing to do with it, he is a psycho.

Hiis religion has EVERYTHING to do with it. Like Bin Laden, Zawahiri, the Taliban etc, he is the most pious of Muslims. Islam is misogynistic amongst all its other crimes against human decency. The Taliban used to kill women for showing 10 centimetres of bare flesh in Taliban Afghanistan. This is all part and parcel of the Muslim belief that women are inferior, and this reveals what they think of women who rise in status. Back in the 1990/91 Gulf War, Saudi officials were flabbergasted to see men in the US Armed Forces take orders from a woman.

Will he get hanged? Did those who carried out the Bali atrocity get hanged? Their leader got 30 months, later cut to 15 months - for 202 murders!!!! or one month for every 13 slaughtered in cold blood.

are your facts in order?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece

BRITISH-educated bombmaker believed to have masterminded both Bali bombings blew himself up yesterday when an anti-terrorist unit surrounded his hideout in Indonesia.
Azahari bin Husin, a former student of Reading University known as the “Demolition Man”, was cornered with some of his followers in Batu on East Java. The gang threw grenades and shot at police before two explosions tore the roof off the building, killing all those inside. Azahari had boasted that he always wore a suicide vest, as he was determined never to be captured.


Or was it another leader and another bali ?

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

are your facts in order?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece



Or was it another leader and another bali ?

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

Now have a good read of this article. The religion of peace indeed:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769

are your facts in order?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece



Or was it another leader and another bali ?

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.
Do you know who their spiritual leader is? None other than Abu Bakar Bashir, the leader of Jemaah islamiyah. It is HE who got 15 months - far below the 30 initially sentenced to.

are your facts in order?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece



Or was it another leader and another bali ?

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

Do you honestly consider these people to be British? (because they dont.)
If you do it must be a Britain in an alternative universe.

They know only one following, and that is of murderous intent to you and all your kind.
It is no good pleading, 'but I have plenty of muslim mates'

You are an infidel, be proud of it, at least you can go to the sword as a man, not a coward.

are your facts in order?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece



Or was it another leader and another bali ?

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

So why is Islam producing suicide bombers galore. Oh almost forgot. Suicide is permissible if it is used to blow up innocent infidels (and infidel can mean the 'other' type of Muslim), because if he blows himself up and kills infidels at the same time, he will have died as a 'holy warrior'.

You are an infidel, be proud of it, at least you can go to the sword as a man, not a coward.

What makes you think I'm an infidel ?

What makes you think I'm an infidel ?

only an infidel would choose to live in Wath? :)

What makes you think I'm an infidel ?

OK you are a turncoat, it matters little to me.
You all go the same way.

OK you are a turncoat, it matters little to me.
You all go the same way.

What way is that ?

What way is that ?

You have the choice, rot in hellfire and damnation, or become a martyr, and have 72 virgins who are as useless to you, as you are to them, as niether of you know what you are doing.

A famous catholic preist once described a very boring occasion as 'exciting as a nuns confession'

I imagine a muslims bombers life to be about the same, until the moment of detonation.

It is interesting to note that the bomb builders always leave town the night before the bomb.

They obviously are not in a great hurry for their virgins are they ?

The problem is in the way women are treated, and I know they can be used/abused in any culture and country, but many Male Moslem attitudes are certainly a concern, and not only to "Westerners"

"The view of most British Asian women we interviewed was that these men simply wanted someone who was submissive and willing to do their bidding. We even found men who openly admitted such attitudes."

See article here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1437676.ece

The problem is in the way women are treated, and I know they can be used/abused in any culture and country, but many Male Moslem attitudes are certainly a concern, and not only to "Westerners"

"The view of most British Asian women we interviewed was that these men simply wanted someone who was submissive and willing to do their bidding. We even found men who openly admitted such attitudes."

See article here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1437676.ece
These are alas growin pains of change within the British Muslim society. What the article fails to identify is the types of people who display these attitudes. A great deal goes on behind closed doors and all bad stuff is not the sole domain of the Asian, but the women sex slaves from eastern Europe and the Far East comes to mind.
A typical Muslim is the one who expects his parents to arrange a marriage with a suitor from the Indian sub-continent probably would have a successful marriage. The problem male is the one who ironically would be regarded as a normal lad, who tries to pleasure his parents by going along with their wishes and then can't reconcile his life with a girl who has nothing in common with him. It's that type of arranged partnerships with young men taunting the imported brides that he only married her beacuse of pressure from his parents and violence is common place. It is those girls being treated like slaves and blackmailed into keeping quiet because otherwise the inlaws would suffer disrepute. They know it's wrong, so the attitude to hide the problem from their own community. The community does not condone it. There is no simple solution to a complex problem. Changes do come about but at their own pace and certainly not because some lady on SF demands so. The problem is mostly due to changes within the asian community, or maybe some can call it progress, but whatever name you give it still very wrong.

You have the choice, rot in hellfire and damnation, or become a martyr, and have 72 virgins who are as useless to you, as you are to them, as niether of you know what you are doing.

A famous catholic preist once described a very boring occasion as 'exciting as a nuns confession'

I imagine a muslims bombers life to be about the same, until the moment of detonation.

It is interesting to note that the bomb builders always leave town the night before the bomb.

They obviously are not in a great hurry for their virgins are they ?

So from this I get the idea that you think all muslims are suicide bombers or dammed to hell if they fail and just try to live a normal life.
Are you sure your brain is working ?

only an infidel would choose to live in Wath? :)

Anyone can live here ruby as long as they expect to go to hell. This place is a simulator for the potential dammed but with less heat.:D

=Cyclone;1994481]Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced.They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.:)

It is not a matter of picking and choosing, although that is the interest of the media. It is the case that this woman was murdered for reasons within the religious education of the murderer: formatted by excuses for the action which exist as the common conversation within Muslim society. It is an expression of the contempt for, and hatred of, female autonomy of thought and action(an autonomy that you take for granted for yourself), that is intrinsic to the cult.

Can you show me an 'abortion clinic bombing' in the UK in my lifetime: by Christians?

The Church in this country is well on it's way to it's proper place as a private matter: subordinate to the state; unable to effect it's foolishness upon the populace.

The same status is required of Islam.

This is not best achieved by persistent excuse-making in regard to it's adherrents transgressions.:)

Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.:)

from wiki
Buddhism is a dharmic, non-theistic religion,

It is not a matter of picking and choosing, although that is the interest of the media. It is the case that this woman was murdered for reasons within the religious education of the murderer: formatted by excuses for the action which exist as the common conversation within Muslim society. It is an expression of the contempt for, and hatred of, female autonomy of thought and action(an autonomy that you take for granted for yourself), that is intrinsic to the cult.

Can you show me an 'abortion clinic bombing' in the UK in my lifetime: by Christians?

The Church in this country is well on it's way to it's proper place as a private matter: subordinate to the state; unable to effect it's foolishness upon the populace.

The same status is required of Islam.

This is not best achieved by persistent excuse-making in regard to it's adherrents transgressions.:)
Show me where I made an excuse for this man.

You are picking and choosing.
You challenge me to identify an abortion clinic blow up in the UK whilst arguing about a female minister murdered in pakistan.
Muslims are misguided and some of them do terrible things.
The same applies to christians.
But that doesn't mean that every muslim is terrible nor every christian.
That is the point I have and continue to argue, which is ignored in favour of pointing out the many flaws of islamic doctrine.
I'm not arguing that those flaws don't exist, i'm sure if we try we can find a whole lot of flaws and evilness in most world religions.

Muslims are misguided and some of them do terrible things. The same applies to christians. But that doesn't mean that every muslim is terrible nor every christian. That is the point I have and continue to argue, which is ignored in favour of pointing out the many flaws of islamic doctrine. I'm not arguing that those flaws don't exist, i'm sure if we try we can find a whole lot of flaws and evilness in most world religions.

Who here debatiing has ever said this? You are just either not getting the point under discussion or you're deliberately evading the issue.

The embedded idea in Islam of the oppression and inferiority of females is hardly a mere flaw, is it?

If I read his above post correctly even tab1 has now had the grace to concede that many women in this country now are having a terrible life, due almost solely to the culture and ideas inculcated by fundamentalist Islam. I admire him for his honesty.

We're now at the stage in the UK vis-a-vis Islam that we were at at the beginning of the 20th century with the patriarchial structure of our laws and cultural ideas. We've dealt with that more or less. We now need people to be vigorously supporting the liberal and progressive voices of Islam which are slowly coming to the fore and not have people who should know better and wouldn't tolerate it for themselves, raising their voices in support of the reactionaries.

That's my opinion and one which I don't falter from in spite of vilification and deliberate misinterpretations which some people seem intent on making.