All people who take drugs should be detained at her Majestys pleasure, unless they can prove that they have half a brain at least.

Are they stupid? or do they just act that way, if they had a tiny bit of gumption they would not touch drugs with a barge pole. All it needs to avoid them is a little will power.

Also, pimps who prey on vulnerable females, and drug pushers who get little children involved in drug taking, should be executed without trial.

The whole of the judiciary must be sacked and replaced by others, who have got the political will to impose the appropriate deterrent on these evil scum.

Then, when we have removed the parasites,
we can move forward and cleanse our society from the filth that is infecting it!!!

what about the old folks who insist on driving 1 mph below the speed limit.

Drugs are fine in moderation...as long as you don't rob to pay for them.

Everyone should try acid at least once in their lives, or its natural alternative magic mushrooms

Your not that man that stands in town with that plackard that says something about God saving us all are you?

Originally posted by costessey
what about the old folks who insist on driving 1 mph below the speed limit.

Drugs are fine in moderation...as long as you don't rob to pay for them.

Everyone should try acid at least once in their lives, or its natural alternative magic mushrooms

...talking of mushrooms I have been told that good ones grow at the base of Higger Tor

Originally posted by halevan
All people who take drugs should be detained at her Majestys pleasure, unless they can prove that they have half a brain at least.

...

Then, when we have removed the parasites,
we can move forward and cleanse our society from the filth that is infecting it!!!

Disturbing to say the least... Do you not think that trying to solve the root problems in our society which are causing such issues would be a little more appropriate than "cleansing the filth"?

With regards the the drugs issue, a vasy majority of those addicted to drugs do not, believe it or not, actually want to be addicted. You don't know the ciscumstances under which many turn to such addictive drugs, or indeed alcohol, tobacco, caffine (all drugs, albeit legal ones)... and to judge everyone who does so as obtuse is somewhat naive.

Agreed Halevan - all these people who spend their days drinking coffee and tea - it is completely bad for their health, they should all be locked up.

Have you any idea the amount of caffine contained in tea? Not to mention the tannin. And decaffinated is no good either the chemicals used to take out the caffine are worse than the caffine itself.

As someone who has recently gone cold turkey on 1.5litres of coca cola per day, I can honestly say that my health and my life suffered because of my addiction.

No Halevan I agree, this drug dependant society should be sorted out.

Moon :o

Originally posted by halevan
All people who take drugs should be detained at her Majestys pleasure, unless they can prove that they have half a brain at least.

How do you propose to test them. Should people who are stupid, but not drug users also be locked away?


Are they stupid? or do they just act that way, if they had a tiny bit of gumption they would not touch drugs with a barge pole. All it needs to avoid them is a little will power.
No they are not stupid. Even a cursory perusal of history will show you that mankind has been using drugs of every kind for every purpose imaginable (including recreational) since time immemorial.

Taking a recreational drug is not a matter of 'lack of gumption' but one of choice. Many drug users have lots of gumption and still use drugs - air force pilots for example.


Also, pimps who prey on vulnerable females, and drug pushers who get little children involved in drug taking, should be executed without trial.

If they are executed without trial, how do you know they are guilty? Or isn't that as important as executing people pour encourager les autres?


The whole of the judiciary must be sacked and replaced by others, who have got the political will to impose the appropriate deterrent on these evil scum.

Then, when we have removed the parasites,
we can move forward and cleanse our society from the filth that is infecting it!!!

Your hateful rhetoric reminds me of someone - can't think who...

is this the type of drug free citizen we want in todays society

did you used to be on Steve Wright in the Afternoon?

I'm as anti drugs as the next man, but the war on drugs plainly isn't working. It's time to legalise all drugs, so we can free up the billions spent of prevention for spending on education and treatment instead.

Figures in the Guardian (yes I know) earlier this week showed that some prisons could be housing up to 80% drug related criminals.

Legalisation will stop these people from having to steal to get their fix. I'd rather they quietly inject themselves in a health centre, than rob my house to pay for the drugs.

Originally posted by halevan
All people who take drugs should be detained at her Majestys pleasure, unless they can prove that they have half a brain at least.

Are they stupid? or do they just act that way, if they had a tiny bit of gumption they would not touch drugs with a barge pole. All it needs to avoid them is a little will power.

Also, pimps who prey on vulnerable females, and drug pushers who get little children involved in drug taking, should be executed without trial.

The whole of the judiciary must be sacked and replaced by others, who have got the political will to impose the appropriate deterrent on these evil scum.

Then, when we have removed the parasites,
we can move forward and cleanse our society from the filth that is infecting it!!!

Wow, that is a very scary post. - Haleven, perhaps you should chill out and have a smoke....?

Chocolate is my drug! :lol:

OK then i take it 99% of people on here think drugs are absolutely fine. I think its you lot who are the scary ones! What good is anyone doing if they take drugs? Ive just been studying hard for a career in the NHS treating people and hopefully benefitting society in the long run and i know full well i didnt even have time to take drugs.. let alone be able to study properly on them.

People who are sad and pathetic enough to need to 'enchance' their brains/minds should take the time they spend smoking/injecting and invest it in either a decent, productive hobby or study for something useful, like i am doing maybe put in a little of what you are taking out.
If they cant do this then, like halevan says, lock em up to stop them influencing the choice of use law abiding NON drug users.

Its like a bloody advertisement for drugs this forum, it seems everyone takes them, but none of you are in jail for it and are singing their praises instead.


Its quite sad really.

And before anyone else goes on about tea/coffee/coke etc, im sorry but no matter what you say its not the same, it doesnt alter your state of mind one fraction as much as illegal drugs, and anyway, i personally dont consume these either.
Its a tired old argument trying to justify the need to alter our state of mind by using illegal drugs and its just not good enough. We could all apply a lesser legal situation to every crime in the book but it still doesnt make it right does it.

murder? what have you never swatted a fly before?

Originally posted by kittykat

And before anyone else goes on about tea/coffee/coke etc, im sorry but no matter what you say its not the same, it doesnt alter your state of mind one fraction as much as illegal drugs, and anyway, i personally dont consume these either.


Er one thing you fail to realise when you refer to "It doesn't alter your state of mind one fraction as much as illegal drugs....have you ever thought about ALCOHOL????.....alcohol aint ILLegal

I have thought of alcohol, and im not a big fan of that either to be honest but i dont admit it much cos the whole world seems to hold it on a pedestal of social importance and fun.

The only difference i can find really is that you need to drink quite a lot of it to actually be altered to a state on a par with taking an illegal drug.

The amount people normally drink still doesnt seem to have as bad an effect as taking drugs, but it would be interesting to see what the world would be like if society had never let alcohol become legal and so commonly consumed.

Originally posted by kittykat
The only difference i can find really is that you need to drink quite a lot of it to actually be altered to a state on a par with taking an illegal drug.

The amount people normally drink still doesnt seem to have as bad an effect as taking drugs, but it would be interesting to see what the world would be like if society had never let alcohol become legal and so commonly consumed.

WRONG......certain people who drink alcohol regularly, gain a tolerance for it...some do not....much harm has been done through drinking alcohol so it cannot be ignored....what your doing is armchair thinking here, I hate to say.

Unless you've done it you can only speculate and assume

Originally posted by kittykat
OK then i take it 99% of people on here think drugs are absolutely fine. I think its you lot who are the scary ones! What good is anyone doing if they take drugs? Ive just been studying hard for a career in the NHS treating people and hopefully benefitting society in the long run and i know full well i didnt even have time to take drugs.. let alone be able to study properly on them.

People who are sad and pathetic enough to need to 'enchance' their brains/minds should take the time they spend smoking/injecting and invest it in either a decent, productive hobby or study for something useful, like i am doing maybe put in a little of what you are taking out.
If they cant do this then, like halevan says, lock em up to stop them influencing the choice of use law abiding NON drug users.


Er.... no. I don't think that anyone on the Forum would say that drugs are absolutely fine. However most people have a more balanced view of drug use.

I still find your comments about locking up drug users rather disturbing. Perhaps we should start locking up everyone who breaks the law, drug related or not, lets start with Prince Harry.

Look at that you all p*ss** and moaned at the fact that this thread had been removed. Argued about censorship and the big bad mods showing their power by removing it. And what happens when it's returned.... no more comments to be made.

Jeez!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Look at that you all p*ss** and moaned at the fact that this thread had been removed. Argued about censorship and the big bad mods showing their power by removing it. And what happens when it's returned.... no more comments to be made.

Jeez!
Jeez, give us a chance to go and eat some lunch and do some work!

Also I'm still waiting for Halevan to refute the many good points made criticising his opinion.

I dont think you lot understand Hals humour, IMHO he puts these extreme comments to provoke a good healthy response and get the thread flowing.

Drug Addicts = Crime / burgalry and racketeering

He certainly knows how to provoke a response

Originally posted by halevan
All people who take drugs should be detained at her Majestys pleasure, unless they can prove that they have half a brain at least.

because you are a monarchist then how do you address Royalty who take drugs like Harry?

Are they stupid? or do they just act that way, if they had a tiny bit of gumption they would not touch drugs with a barge pole. All it needs to avoid them is a little will power.

some people do not intentionally fall into the habit of taking drugs

Also, pimps who prey on vulnerable females, and drug pushers who get little children involved in drug taking, should be executed without trial.[B]

and what if you were accused and you were innocent ? and you were executed?

how about those who are wrongly accused ...remember we live in a land where people are innocent until proven guilty and as you always preach on aout your "Christianity" I am ashamed of you.....who are you to determine what happens to a persons life?....who are you to say whether someone lives or dies??!!!

[B]The whole of the judiciary must be sacked and replaced by others, who have got the political will to impose the appropriate deterrent on these evil scum.[B]

its not the judiciaries fault!!!! yeh, sentencing should be addressed as they are far too lenient,however sacking experienced judges aint gonna solve anything.


[B]Then, when we have removed the parasites,
we can move forward and cleanse our society from the filth that is infecting it!!!

You cannot get rid of the ills of society by doing this. You can educate people and help them. How about the dole bludgers ? are they not scum in your opinion do they not leach from the taxes we pay?

Kittykat,
I wish there were more young people who talked as much sense as you do, then, we would have a much more law abiding society where everyone could live without fear of being attacked, sometimes in their own homes.

Defenceless old people being beaton up by thugs stoned out of their minds, desperate for a fix and prepared to do any kind of evil to get the money to buy it. I am so sad to think that some human beings have sunk so low, the human animal is the only one to maim and kill for such reasons.

What people seem to overlook is that recreational drugs are currently ILLEGAL, so unless you're a law breaker you shouldn't be touching the stuff.

If drugs are illegal based on how harmful they are - then the law is a joke. Alcohol and Cigarettes are screaming contradictions, irrespective of historical precedent.

If drugs are illegal because it should be illegal to alter your conciousness, then all other forms of consciousness alteration should be made illegal also. (spefically alcohol, meditation, espresso, mushrooms, sensory deprivation tanks and hypnotism)

Someone tell me why they think drugs are illegal.

Then tell me if they think that a law can be a bad law. (not these laws in particular, just hypothetically, if it is possible for bad laws to exist.)

And then to tell me whether it is simply wrong to want to alter one's conciousness, to gain a different perspective on the world, the street, the universe, the self.

I grant you that these are not the motives of all drug users. But a significant minority use drugs for precisely the reasons outline above.

Beyond that I think it is largely fruitless to try and discuss all types of illegal drug together as simply drugs. To do so is to ignore everything we know about various drugs and their effects.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme


Beyond that I think it is largely fruitless to try and discuss all types of illegal drug together as simply drugs. To do so is to ignore everything we know about various drugs and their effects.

Yes I agree.

Also some people probably believe that drug use (and abuse) is confined to the "poor", homeless, and criminal fraternity. Come on lets not be so naive, there are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, police officers all using drugs.

To add to Phanerothyme's and Dug's points, what about the moral implications - is it immoral, simply because it's illegal? In which case, would it then become immoral to for example, drink tea, if law prohibited tea?

"Law is a fickle mistress, subject always to the whims and prejudices of those who administer them"

I think if recreational drugs were legalised sensibly, then much of the criminal element would be taken away. For those wanting to smoke a joint, they could buy cannabis legally and enjoy it. For those addicted to harder drugs, such as heroin, they should be offered a safe place to use it, with clean paraphernalia, safe drugs, and given intensive counselling to help them stop. Most people who are addicted to harder drugs do actually want to quit.

as a person who lost quite a few years of his life to drugs (including alcohol) I have every sympathy with those suffering the misery they cause. And think it sad that anybody wants to risk damaging/altering the delicate mechanism that the human brain is.
And I believe a visit to an open meeting of Narcotics Anonymous would be very instructive to those who talk of drugs in such a positive light.
I can understand the belief that says "who's got a right to tell me what to do with my own body?" but this must be squared with "do I have a right to extra use of the NHS just because of damage/addiction caused by those drugs".

PS I thought the statement "I think everyone should try LSD at least once" the most irresponsible thing I've ever seen on this forum. Unfortunately because of the weakness of the vast majority of the acid around since the late 80s....stuff which should hardly even call itself acid people think this is some fun drug that anyone can take for a laugh when Id say it can be the most dangerous drug there is. Just remember you can take it a 1000 times and be ok but take it once and end up on a mental ward...sometimes permanently. Believe me I know people who wish theyd never heard of the stuff...

As a Christian I think your attitude suxs people do things for reasons, you have to look at the why not what there doing for example, why do people take drugs, drink to much to much, it could be emotional reasons, it could be to escape reality, it could be for a number of reasons.

As for pedafiles well they should be thrown in prison and the key thrown away.

There is one sure thing history repeats itself only we call it progress.

Scaja...are you sure you didnt post that message to the wrong forum as it seems to have absolutely nothing to do with anything above!

Hal I agree 100% with you. The trouble with many contributors to this forum is their age. They have grown up with drugs all around them and as such see them as much a part of their lives as beer or cigarettes.

I took my children to the Lyceum last night and at 6.30 my youngsters had to face scummy addicts laying sprawled out across Tudor Square, some yelling their heads off falling all over.
What a world to have to introduce our children into.

I'd bloody shoot the lot of em.

:evil: :evil:

Originally posted by Mo
Hal I agree 100% with you. The trouble with many contributors to this forum is their age. They have grown up with drugs all around them and as such see them as much a part of their lives as beer or cigarettes.

I took my children to the Lyceum last night and at 6.30 my youngsters had to face scummy addicts laying sprawled out across Tudor Square, some yelling their heads off falling all over.
What a world to have to introduce our children into.

I'd bloody shoot the lot of em.

:evil: :evil:

Why shoot them? Just stamp all over their fingers. They'll find it hard to inject drugs or hold a joint!

Originally posted by XADRIAN
some people do not intentionally fall into the habit of taking drugs


HAHAHHA! No of course not, they accidentally throw a spliff into their mouth and before they know it, it lights itself and they're high! Not to mention those jumping needles that often accidentally land on peoples arms. Of course no one intentionally gets into the habit of drug taking.....

Good on you Mo, these people are beyond anyones help or understanding, all we can do is to let them wallow in the pit of filth they have chosen.
I do not feel sorry for them or wish to associate with them in any way because they are happy living that way, but it is not for me.

The pimps that infest our society, make slaves of vulnerable females, fill them with illegal drugs, force them to live as prostitutes, take all there money from them and beat them unmercifully, sometimes to death in order to force their will on these poor souls.

Also, the dealers in death that stand at the gates of our schools selling their foul merchandise to our little innocent children, getting them hooked on drugs, crime, and condeming them to a life of misery and no hope, all for the sake of acuiring filthy lucre. l

Are these people deserving of any consideration? I say no. When they are caught red handed committing their diabolical crimes against humanity, I repeat they should be strung up, why should huge sums of taxpayers money be spent on farcical trials. They have forfeited their human rights, by depriving innocent victims of theirs!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Mike - no personal insults on the forum please. If you feel that strongly then email him - although please remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

(edited: gb)

Originally posted by gloworm
Scaja...are you sure you didnt post that message to the wrong forum as it seems to have absolutely nothing to do with anything above!
apologies to scaja who i accused of sending an irrelevant post, i now see they were responding to the ultra-condemnatory post that started off the thread and not the couple immediately before the post they sent

(edited: added original quote to make it clearer :-) gb)

Originally posted by Mike
Mike - no personal insults on the forum please. If you feel that strongly then email him - although please remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

(edited: gb)

Been at it again have we Mike? For a minute there, I thought you'd left the forum for good as I'd not seen you post for a while. Oh well, I can but hope.

Awwww......and there was me thinking we were best mates t020 ;-)

Sorry, you can't get rid of me that easily!

Originally posted by halevan
Are these people deserving of any consideration? I say no. When they are caught red handed committing their diabolical crimes against humanity, I repeat they should be strung up, why should huge sums of taxpayers money be spent on farcical trials. They have forfeited their human rights, by depriving innocent victims of theirs!!!

The point of a trial is to establish guilt. If you want to forgo that formality you are actually suggesting a return to social justice, where the community takes it upon themselves to punish wrongdoers.

The thing is we have spent the last 500 years trying to get away from mob justice, and I don't think a return to it is in any way a step forward.

Bring users of illegal drugs to courts of justice to be tried in law by their peers. I have no argument with that at all. But to suggest that justice can be served by ditching the concept of trial and innocence until guilt is proven is more fitting of a military Junta than a liberal western democracy with separation of the pillars of state (legislature, executive and judiciary).

I would hazard that this demand for summary execution is rooted in an all emotional response to the problem, and is more about assuaging the angry bloodlust of the self righteous than actually handing down justice to anyone.

Though I aggree with Hal in theory it would not be politically correct to deny these dealers a proper trial through the courts as it has been for hundreds of years, although the court system is hundreds of years old, drug dealing is'nt and new special laws should be brought in for these parasites, which is the only name you can justify for them and make sure there never on the streets to deal there filth again.
If they were no dealers then they would be no addicts therefore reducing crime at the same time.

How are drug dealers "parasites"?

How are drug dealers not ''parasites'' Mike?

Succesfull drug dealers make good money, tax free so they're hardly being parasitic on the state, etc.

You could say they are parasites "feeding" upon their clients, but I'd more inclined to say that the people who buy their drugs are the ones being parasitic.

Originally posted by Mo
I took my children to the Lyceum last night and at 6.30 my youngsters had to face scummy addicts laying sprawled out across Tudor Square, some yelling their heads off falling all over.
What a world to have to introduce our children into.


That sounds like the behaviour of drunkards, not "scummy drug addicts" - since when do you see smackheads yealling their heads of?

And nobody *made* you introduce children to this world, did they?

Originally posted by Mike
That sounds like the behaviour of drunkards, not "scummy drug addicts" - since when do you see smackheads yealling their heads of?

And nobody *made* you introduce children to this world, did they?

No Mike they weren't yealing their heads off.

With reference to your last comment and other equally ridiculous things you come out with perhaps your parents ought to have thought twice.

Sorry that was a spelling mistake but obviously the connection between yealing and yelling was too hard for you to make.

I meant "since when do you see smackheads yelling their heads off?"

If you knew the first thing about drugs, you'd know your comment was ridiculous, but drunks probably don't fit into prejudiced views as easily, so if you want to think they're drug addicts then fine, you just carry on in your usual blissful ignorance.

Originally posted by The Cycleracer

If they were no dealers then they would be no addicts therefore reducing crime at the same time.

That's true to a certain extent. Equally, and to use the same logic, if there were no producers there would be no dealers. The corollary being, if their were no addicts there would be no producers.

What I am trying to say (not very well) is that it's a bit of a circular argument.

Also , not all drugs are addictive, and not all drugs have dealer/client networks.

Additionally, dealers and users tend to be one and the same, as dealing is a handy way to get free drugs.

Of course, the further you go up the dealership chain for something like heroin, the less likely they are to be addicts, and the more likely they are to be successful international businessmen.

But getting rid of dealers for say, heroin, by executing them all will not make an iota of difference (assuming you actually ended up executing them, and not random people, as would be a risk if they were sentenced without trial) since supply will always rise to meet demand.

To tread wearily back over this topic of summary sentencing; how can you sentence someone to death unless you know they are guilty, and how do you know they are guilty if they are not tried by a court of law.

Saying that you would support the summary sentencing of alleged wrongdoers is to completely reject the whole principle of having a Judicial System out of hand.

That's a fine position to hold, so long as you don't mind me maliciously shopping you as a paedophile to the cops, and getting you executed without trial.

Summary Justice has historically often been about settling scores, and not serving Justice.

What constitutes Justice is a really meaty nice topic that deserves a thread on its own, as the ramifications go far beyond the relatively small problem of drugs and society.

Originally posted by Mike
Sorry that was a spelling mistake but obviously the connection between yealing and yelling was too hard for you to make.

I meant "since when do you see smackheads yelling their heads off?"

If you knew the first thing about drugs, you'd know your comment was ridiculous, but drunks probably don't fit into prejudiced views as easily, so if you want to think they're drug addicts then fine, you just carry on in your usual blissful ignorance.


Are you a druggie Mike? Only it looks as if one of your injections has caused a major bloot clot and caused your head to enlarge by ridiculous proportions.

None of your business what I choose to put into my body really, is it t020? But I can't see how pointing out to somebody the differences in drunken and "druggy" behaviour is being big headed.

Perhaps you've been on the stupid pills you're so fond of again?

OK you two take a chill pill each (the legal kind) and relax. Or anymore bover n you guys will be ejected from this joint...... by order of da management!:lol:

All just a bit of harmless banter - I can tell t020 missed me really by the way he welcomed me back to this topic!

Blessed are the peacemakers.

(now all you have to do is keep the maniacs out - oops too late) :) :)

You callin' me a MANIAC ??!!?!

What I am saying is that the pimps and the merchants of death who sentence others to death without trial, deserve the same treatment that they are dishing out to the innocents.

They don't have someone in a court of law, people who are not guilty of any crime in the first place before filling them full of illegal drugs, this is premeditated murder.

These drug barons do not care who they kill when they distribute this poison, as they have no concience where making money is concerned and if they are prepared to sentence others to death without trial, then they should suffer the same fate.

Originally posted by halevan
These drug barons do not care who they kill when they distribute this poison, as they have no concience where making money is concerned

Now that I have no argument with whatsoever. The drug barons do not have a conscience. If they made more money selling weapons, they would do that too. Many do.

But take a step back and ask why the drug barons exist in the first place, and which drugs they supply.

They supply, in the main, highly addictive drugs, which - as the tobacco companies have discovered - "lock in" consumers and get them paying regular amounts in for the duration of the addiction.

There's no business like repeat business.

Dealers satisfy an economic demand. People want to buy drugs of all kinds, and the illegal ones must be supplied by netherworld dealers. The most profitable ones are freebase cocaine, cocaine hydrochloride and diamorphine.

Why are they so profitable? because the users, once addicted, will pay anything, and do anything to get the money to pay for their next installment.

Now you can try and reduce demand, because that is the only way to reduce supply. But to reduce demand, you really have to understand why people take drugs. And there are as many different reasons for people taking drugs as there are drugs x people. Not all drugs are addictive, and not all drugs are harmful to the person.

Trying to stop the supply has two effects. Firstly, if you are successful in reducing supply, then the price of the drug will go up, and users will steal more goods to get the same amount. result - more crime.
Secondly by cracking down on supply, users will simply find other methods of obtaining their drug of choice - opening up new networks of supply.

and if they are prepared to sentence others to death without trial, then they should suffer the same fate.

well our opinions on this are quite clear. Let me put another point to you. By sentencing alleged dealers to death without trial, are we not sinking to their level?

Surely we, as law abiding citizens (for the most part), have a responsibility to uphold the rule of law, and the principle of systematic justice through the courts?I think so.

The law prohibits the use, sale and production of many drugs. Is it not enough to use the law to stamp out the dealers?

You may not think so, and I would agree with you. The drug law as it stands is a mess, and exacerbates the problem more than it solves it. Reform, of some kind or another, is sorly needed.

We are broadly of the same opinion, and I take your point that we must not stoop as low as they are, if an intelligent adult wishes to take drugs, then that is his or her choice.

But when certain people use vulnerable members of society to satisfy their own selfish desires, then that! is beneath contempt.
and should be punishable by the full weight of the law.

These drug barons and pimps, can be likened to political criminals who have emerged from time to time to acuire power, in certain countries of the world I.E. Hitler and his cronies, Mussolini and his, Stalin, to name just a few who had scant regard for human life and indeed tortured and tormented the poor souls who didn't agree with their philosophy.

Originally posted by halevan
and I take your point that we must not stoop as low as they are, if an intelligent adult wishes to take drugs, then that is his or her choice.



Actually it isn't. Since recreational drugs are illegal, people don't have a choice. If you want to live in a country you obide by the laws that govern it. If not, I've heard Hollands nice this time of year?

Just thought I'd throw this into the debate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WORKPLACE DRUG TESTS
Drug and alcohol tests could become quite common at work, because increasing numbers of employers believe that substance abuse is the reason for high levels of absenteeism and accidents at work, reveals the Drugscope charity. These conclusions stem from an independent inquiry that has been jointly organised by Drugscope and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which finds that 80 per cent of employers would test workers if substance abuse is suspected to be affecting productivity. For more information visit: www.drugscope.org.uk.

And this

DRUG and alcohol abuse is estimated to cost industry as much as £2.8billion a year. One business in every 25 has conducted tests, while ten per cent of all firms plan to introduce testing during the next year - tests are already used by construction and transport firms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like Big Blair is watching you.

[Edited by Tony Ruscoe - fixed link]

Originally posted by halevan
We are broadly of the same opinion, and I take your point that we must not stoop as low as they are, if an intelligent adult wishes to take drugs, then that is his or her choice.

But when certain people use vulnerable members of society to satisfy their own selfish desires, then that! is beneath contempt.
and should be punishable by the full weight of the law.

Absolutely. It is the nature of these extremely addictive drugs that is being used to enslave blameless individuals.

Looking particularly at heroin, this is a painkilling drug. Those who are growing up on 'sink estates', in a culture of anti-achievement and economic hopelessness will quickly find that heroin kills the existential pain of seemingly inescapable bad situation. Once addicted, escape comes in few forms other than death or prison.

These drug barons and pimps, can be likened to political criminals who have emerged from time to time to acuire power, in certain countries of the world I.E. Hitler and his cronies, Mussolini and his, Stalin, to name just a few who had scant regard for human life and indeed tortured and tormented the poor souls who didn't agree with their philosophy.
Again, I think you've really nailed it. These drugs - crack, heroin, cocaine are tools used by malevolent and greedy individuals to suck money out of vulnerable people, whilst simultaneously slowly killing them with damaging adulterants. Their victims will even steal and mug to give these scumbags money.

And this is where I fear our agreement ends.

These 'high level dealers' who:
hoover untraceable cash out from society and pay no taxes
use addictive drugs to shackle their victims into a pattern of crime
who have other business interests, namely prostitution of young russian and eastern european women, dealing small arms to the criminal fraternity and political corruption,

could have one of their financial legs cut out from underneath them if this government instituted a well planned but very radical reform of the drugs law.

By dropping penalties for users, increasing penalties for 'substantial supply', and (most controversially) providing good heroin and clean works for anyone who can prove they are an addict (**** test). Then monitor and control carefully.A small scheme in the runcorn area in the late 80s demonstrated something like an 80% drop in burglaries.

It won't be perfect, nothing ever is, but I believe it really could help reduce the crime and the self harm that results mostly from the prohibition of the drugs we are talking about.

Originally posted by t020
Actually it isn't. Since recreational drugs are illegal, people don't have a choice. If you want to live in a country you obide by the laws that govern it. If not, I've heard Hollands nice this time of year?
Have to disagree with you there. :)

We are free in this country to either obey or break the laws as we see fit. But we are bound by a social contract to accept the judgement of the law if we are apprehended.

The thing is that we are self policing. Most people understand that stealing things indisicriminately, or killing etc, make for a crappy place to live, so they don't do it to each other. Laws enshrine those values as oppposed to creating them.

The law merely institutes a set of statutory penalties for socially unacceptable behaviour, and ensures fair judgment of the accused.

If a law is seen to be unreasonable or unworkable, people tend not to obey it (speed limits, cannabis, getting drunk in pubs, eating mince pies).

And often unworkable or unreasonable laws are not upheld by the police either, leading to de facto decriminalisation.

So some laws can be broken more easily than others. Some laws should never be broken, and many should be repealed completely.

You have to ask yourself the question - can there be such a thing as a bad law, and if so, is it morally wrong to disobey it? Of course it is illegal, by definition, but illegal does not equal wrong.

It does in my book.

So eating mince pies is wrong?

Only on Christmas day:o

Sorry, couldn't resist it:blush:

EE by gum...where to start on this....
Right, from my position as someone who had an alcoholic mother...I strongly disagree that alcohol is not as dangerous as drugs...far from it. As alcohol is widely accepted and alcoholism is not always recognised as the disease it is it can be so hard for sufferers to get help. Alcohol DOES alter the state of mind, people CAN become addicted to it. Alcoholics can end up as totally changed people, abusing or neglecting their children. My mum died from drinking when I was twelve, so I have seen first hand the consequences.
Secondly, At the age of 16 I became addicted to heroin, i never injected. I was an addict for nearly two hears, couldn't hold down a job..and without realising it I lost everything I had...I'm sure I looked like the living dead.
To address some of the points made here...People who take drugs are NOT stupid. I'm a very intelligent person, people take drugs for all sorts of reasons. Mine were my unsettled childhood, being in care as a teenager, and a general messed up head.
Lack of education, job prospects, broken homes are all contributing factors to why people may become drug addicts.
These people need help and understanding...Lack of confidence is such an important part of the problem.
I have gone on to live a fulfilling life and have become a good mum with good prospects, gone on to further my education and confined the whole sorry business to the past.
Gods, lets give people a chance.

so some one can go to the pub drink heavily and end up causing fights and yet it is illegal for someone to enjoy a joint and be happy. I think alcohol is a worse drug than weed.

Alcohol should have much stricter controls on it than it currently has. I'd propose consumption limits, whereby every seller of alcohol, from bars, pubs, clubs to off licenses, would have to perform breathaliser tests before serving the customer any alcohol. There could be a limit of say, 4 - 5 units, at which the person would not be served. If the person was near the limit and ordered a double, or more than one drink, the person would still be refused. I would also increase the legal age of consumption on licensed premises to 21. There is very much a yob culture in this country, much of it fuelled by alcoholic binge drinking. This lifestyle is without a doubt promoted by certain aspects of the media. You only have to listen to some radio DJs going on about how 'bladdered' they got/will get at the weekend, etc etc. With this kind of shameless promotion of alcohol being broadcast 24/7 it is no wonder that young people from as young as 12 or even younger end up wanting to drink. As well as this, people of legal age are also 'egged' into binge drinking, with women just as guilty as men. As a result, the NHS will face crippling amounts of patients suffering from alcohol related diseases brought about by heavy binge drinking. The yob culture we have in this country is currently highlighted by our tourists in Faliraki, who in my opinion, bring much shame on this country and deserve all the punishment the police over there throw at them. I only wish that the Greek police would teach ours a thing or two.

As for drugs, I think most people on here know where I stand on the issue of legalisation. I think some of the police force would like to legalise it because cannibis abuse, for example, is so common that its a lot of work for them and takes up time that they could use doing something they enjoy, such as setting up speed traps on straight roads with no pedestrians within miles. Nothing beats sitting around with a donut in one hand and a radar gun in the other, waiting to catch out that b*****d that dares go 43mph in a 40 zone. Then they get the thrill of a good chase, barging dangerously through heavy traffic. Ever noticed that, even when not in an emergency, speed restrictions and traffic lights are ignored by some police cars? Anyway, aside from this, New Labour loves to dress up statistics in any way it can. Sometimes its dressing up unemployment statistics to make them look better, e.g. by cramming people into University and constantly changing the definition of an unemployed person, and sometimes its dressing up crime statistics, e.g. by legalising crimes to make it appear that there are less crimes committed. So, drugs should be kept illegal, and addicts should be punished in accordance with the law, but also offered some form of rehabilitation. End of rant.

Originally posted by t020
...
I think some of the police force would like to legalise it because cannibis abuse, for example, is so common that its a lot of work for them and takes up time that they could use doing something they enjoy, such as setting up speed traps on straight roads with no pedestrians within miles. Nothing beats sitting around with a donut in one hand and a radar gun in the other, waiting to catch out that b*****d that dares go 43mph in a 40 zone...

But surely, speeding is speeding is speeding - illegal, which as you posted on the previous page, is wrong. Sorry to be pedantic, but have you just contradicted yourself - is speeding OK... sometimes?

My apologies if I misread the post.

Speeding is wrong, I wouldn't condone it. What I'm saying is that it seems that the police much prefer to spend there time going after drivers, who are often only a few mph over the limit on straight dual carriageways, which isn't that dangerous, but is a 'cushy' number for the officers. Obviously all crimes should be tackled, but police resources are limited, so surely they should use a higher percentage of them on real problems such as under age drinking and drug abuse, as opposed to opting for the cushy number where retaliation from an often otherwise law-obiding citizen is at most extremely unlikely.

Im probably a little behind on this and what im going to say has probably been said already BUT…

Drugs will always be around in many shapes and forms. People just need some kind of escape from everyday life. The first post stated drug takers are stupid and irresponsible… Well that is bull…. Edgar Allan Poe was known to use opium regularly, American Indians used to puff on hallucinogenic cactus, Hunter S Thompson… ;) Then you can go through a whole list of musicians and artists. They may not be geniuses but they are damn smart and its probable they knew what they were doing.

I do agree on some drugs though. It does really egt to me when I see programs about young people who have tried heroine just to fit in the crowd, got hooked to it and watch it become the epicentre of there lives, everything revolves around it. It is quite sad but that’s the risk that in most cases, they know about.

I think all crack addicts (or any type of drug users) wanting to get off the drug should be forced to watch requiem for a dream looped constantly for 24 hours. That should sort them out.

...talking of mushrooms I have been told that good ones grow at the base of Higger Tor.

Thanks XADRIAN - I'll look for them on my next spiritual 'trip' to Carl Wark!

And as Timothy Leary once wrote: If you've taken drugs then you're biased and if you haven't, then you know nothing about them - or words to that effect.

Yeah - thanks for that info as well XADRIAN!

It makes me feel sad to see such obvious bitterness, pain and anger being expressed here at totally the wrong targets.

Of course, when I was burgled (probably by heroin addicts - statistically likely) I was mighty [edited] off - but I couldn't allow myself the easy oversimplification of the situation by just thinking 'evil scum deserve to die'.

Many people have taken drugs such as heroin and not had their life spiral out of control. Many others have spent some time emeshed in the horrors of out of control addiction - in which case it does indeed damage what is left of your life. In my experience (and there are psychological studies that support this) it is those with underlying problems - carrying a burden of feeling bad (about themselves and the world) most of the time that get the greatest effects from such drugs - and therefore find them much more attractive than those who have had a loving, secure background.

These people need help to feel good about themselves - without drugs - rather than simply pouring fuel onto the fire by condeming them as satan's little children.

At least legalising drugs such as heroin would allow people who weren't ready to face their problems and work them through (with help); to live lives on a safe 'pause' mode- ready to pick up the pieces when they were stronger. As it happens pure heroin is one of the most non-toxic drugs there is to the body (aside from addiction issues) so there is little physical reason why anyone could not take it for years if necessary and then come off and be perfectly healthy. Of course you wouldn't really have much of a life while this was going on - but then people who get badly addicted to this stuff don't tend to have much of a life to start with.

I wish that those who invest so much energy in ranting against the evils of drug addicts were able to spend their energy more constructively. In my mind the real evils in this world are the social and economic conditions that create sink estates, unemployment, low self-esteem and social exclusion. Chronic drug addition is just a symptom of a sick society trying to ameliorate it's pain.

with love to you all

[Edited by Tony Ruscoe - swearing removed]