As from 29th January 2007,there is a speed limit of 50 mph on the A57 Snake Pass. Starting approx from the Sheffield city boundary over to Glossop.

I assume this is an effort to try to curtail the number of accidents that have occured on this road

Been rather a long thread on the Snake, speed limits and many other things in the last few weeks here;

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=179938

Yeah, the Highways people are desperately trying to get the accidents down. To be honest unless it's strictly enforced the idiots will probably ignore it, tail gate those who obey the law and take even more risks to overtake.

Most of the accidents are on corners where 50mph is suicide, but lets see if slowing the road down generally helps!

B

NUTS!!:rant:
Wont get out of 2nd gear on my bike:rolleyes:
Have to use just the back wheel to keep the entertainment value going:thumbsup:

Its a shame, the whole route has been/will be reduced to cut accidents ? I enjoyed the strights which we a good blast, and anyone with half a brain never took the bends at speeds near the limit, shame the whole route has been reduced just cos people cant understand the diffrence between a limit and a target!

As if a 10mph reduction in speed limit will have any effect on the number of accidents. Anyway, the other thread has all these comments.

Tbh, the limit itself wont affect me. I was always in the 6 points region rather than a 3 pointer on the straights anyway.

We shall see how its policed. And time will show if we were right about accident reductions.

I think the people that are safe drivers were already doing that speed or less on the snake pass and the people that aren't safe drivers aren't going to stick to that speed and haven't done in the past.

I think the people that are safe drivers were already doing that speed or less on the snake pass and the people that aren't safe drivers aren't going to stick to that speed and haven't done in the past.

50 mph isn't a 'safe' speed, it's an inappropriately low one.

50 mph isn't a 'safe' speed, it's an inappropriately low one.

aye, we'll have to see how it works out. Not sure this will reduce the accidents. The most dangerous driving I've seen on the snake is when people weave in and out of a long line of slow moving traffic, desperate to get to the front. This is a recipe for long lines of traffic developing.

Anybody travelling over the Snake Pass at tea time in the week can play Spot The Company Rep.

See him weave in and out (usual company car - Fords, Vauxhalls), slam on the breaks, tailgate then off he goes again.

All in a rush to sit at the lights in Glossop before you and I get there.

Mind you, I should talk. I used to get up to nearly 90 on there on my way back from Ormskirk to get back in time for the pub to open. My brother takes the record though, getting from Sheffield to Glossop in 20 minutes (but then, he always had faster cars and was slightly mad behind the wheel. I managed it in a Montego Estate!!).

Obviously I'm a much maturer motorist these days although I don't wear a deerstalker hat, have a travel rug on my back window ledge nor for that matter, have a white Poodle named Elvis.

These things will come though.....

[ My brother takes the record though, getting from Sheffield to Glossop in 20 minutes (but then, he always had faster cars and was slightly mad behind the wheel. I managed it in a Montego Estate!!).

Respect mate my best was 23 min in my 5,0 Griff 20 is very good. Mind you he probably wasn’t plagued with the 40 mph merchants wobbling all over causing a nuisance

I've done it in 17 mins before. The car I was driving beeped when you went over 100mph, it went off 6 times on my way...

what do you consider the start point to be though i am using Hathersage

what do you consider the start point to be though i am using Hathersage

I count it from the big bridge on the way out of hathersage

what do you consider the start point to be though i am using Hathersage

Hathersage?????? its miles from sheffield journey times ars ususally centre to centre sorry I could not spell usaually

Perhaps we should have a Sheffield forum Cannonball event to clear up this matter

can I enter I will go out and buy a evo

run what ya brung mate open to all

run what ya brung mate open to all

have wife have kids do worry!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps we should have a Sheffield forum Cannonball event to clear up this matter

What you drivin?

is there such a thing as an overtaking camera to catch people going over solid white lines

No. They just have gatos, greenies and coppers half out of sight.

These things target your speed on the safest parts of the road, farthest from where accidents are likely to take place.

(baring overtakes which are safest the faster you are going).

Perhaps we should have a Sheffield forum Cannonball event to clear up this matter

Let us know when it's happening....so I can remember to stay well clear of the place.

is there such a thing as an overtaking camera to catch people going over solid white lines

Wouldn't they be a great invention?

But seriously, penalising only the people who are breaking the law in absolute speed terms alone is the easy way out- it does nothing to address anybody driving dangerously, using a phone whilst smoking and driving a manual car (like I saw someone do yesterday- god alone knows how he was operating the indicators!), people generally not paying attention, people driving cars not fit to be on the road.......

Perhaps we should have a Sheffield forum Cannonball event to clear up this matter

I'm in. (Need more characters).

I'm in also! :cool:

What you drivin?

TVR Tuscan

What's the reliability like on that? And the servicing costs?

been on it today-as it anyone follow that limit-no wonder there are so many deaths. bearing in mind how sunny it was today and silly cars/bikes zooming round IDIOTS

What you drivin?

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n151/theridgeracer/PIC_0002.jpg

I'm in. (Need more characters).

Im definitely in :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

TVR Tuscan
Now Ridgeracer be honest, we both know that car's not just a Tuscan, is it?

For a start, it's not the recent road-going Tuscan model - it's a Tuscan Challenge car which was built in the factory as a full-blown race car.

Then we add the odd little detail like the small addition of a 6.6 litre Winston cup race engine, plus the rest of the extensive mods its had, and I think it's fair to say that what we have is a 600bhp sub-1000 kilo full-race monster which has, by stretching the rules a bit, been made road legal.

Anybody wanting to play ball against that thing in any kind of road car is in for a shock.

Im in! Even though that Tuscan can WHOOP my 156 but hey...

I count it from the big bridge on the way out of hathersage

I think the word you're looking for is Bamford.

what do you consider the start point to be though i am using Hathersage

Are you sure you're on about the right road???

Hathersage is nowhere near the Snake!!!

I think all you Cannonballers are going to be screwed by having to stop all the time to read a map.

Fair point perhaps I should take my mate Tom Tom along for the ride

Hathersage is nowhere near the Snake!!!

I think all you Cannonballers are going to be screwed by having to stop all the time to read a map.


thru Hathersage, under the bridge, along the Dual Carriageway, right at the mini roundabout, et voila.

thru Hathersage, under the bridge, along the Dual Carriageway, right at the mini roundabout, et voila.
Exactly - people living on the West of Sheffield get to the Snake via Hathersage.

Fair point perhaps I should take my mate Tom Tom along for the ride

Yes - otherwise there could be a repeat of when you were navigating on that race to the South of France and we ended up going round the Périphérique twice . . . . . . .

Maybe we could define it as the A57 starting from the ladybower.

edit - and ending at the 30 signs for glossop.

Maybe we could define it as the A57 starting from the ladybower.

edit - and ending at the 30 signs for glossop. . . . . and a few cans of cavity foam for the camera windows :D

They haven't actually put up any fixed cameras have they, tell me it's not true.

They haven't actually put up any fixed cameras have they, tell me it's not true.I've not used the Snake for a few months, but I heard that they have.

I, too, hope that it's just rumour.

I didn't see any fixed cameras when I went over at the weekend.

Beggars belief

As from 29th January 2007,there is a speed limit of 50 mph on the A57 Snake Pass. Starting approx from the Sheffield city boundary over to Glossop.

I assume this is an effort to try to curtail the number of accidents that have occured on this road

The two fatal accidents that I have seen on the Snake both involved crap overtaking. In the first, a shedload of motorcyclists had been hit by a car. It was hard to tell if other cars were involved; a lot had stopped. There were loads of ambulances and Police, and I saw two people receiving CPR. The other accident was car Vs. car. Speed was a factor in both, obviously, but it was NOT the cause.

The one accident that I've seen was a car on it's roof on a straight section for no apparent reason. Never did find out why or how.

in the 60s and 70s we used to consider the the run across was glossop traffic lights to ecclesall terminus/crosspool tav.....the record was 15 mins (at 2.30am on a clear night) in a souped up 3 litre capri...it all depends on how well you know the road...

thru Hathersage, under the bridge, along the Dual Carriageway, right at the mini roundabout, et voila.

What dual carriageway???

What mini roundabout???

Are you sure you're coming from Hathersage??

I didn't see any fixed cameras when I went over at the weekend.

seconded, i too went across and nothing yet.
there was a muppet pulled out rivelin valley road and continued at 30mph until i passed them after the pub (dunno its name) just before hollow meadows on google maps (http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=wl&q=) GAH! 50 is bearable, 30 is ridiculous!!! put your full beams on ejit and then you'll be able to see well enough to go just a bit faster!!!!!

Drive from Bamford every morning and no fixed cameras on that section, in fact a glorious clear drive this morning - no tedious 40 - 45 mph drivers.

You need a Porsche Carrara 4S on the Snake. Just enough power without being too powerful to send you off a bend, and enough grip to keep you from flying off the edge - not to mention wide enough to not let anybody else pass :)

My best trip across the Snake was in a Peugeot 205 CTi. Totally exhillarating.

I live on the west of Sheffield and I get to the Snake the proper way ie: through Crosspool/Hollow Meadows. I class the snake as being from the ladybower bridge, to the 30 signs for Glossop.

And where in god's name is there a dual carriageway and mini roundabout near hathersage?


Sod the Tom Tom - you need a bloody miracle!

I live on the west of Sheffield and I get to the Snake the proper way ie: through Crosspool/Hollow Meadows. I class the snake as being from the ladybower bridge, to the 30 signs for Glossop.

Sod the Tom Tom - you need a bloody miracle!If you live around Ecclesall/Whirlow it's far better to go through Hathersage. We call the 'proper way' to go from Parkhead through Fox House and Hathersage - nice road too.


You're right about Ridgeracer needing more help than a Tom Tom.

If you live around Ecclesall/Whirlow it's far better to go through Hathersage. We call the 'proper way' to go from Parkhead through Fox House and Hathersage - nice road too.


You're right about Ridgeracer needing more help than a Tom Tom.

The best way to go is probably via Ringinglow, round underneath Bamford Edge, and out at the Yorkshire bridge.

As an update to this thread, I was ticketed for speeding on the A57 on 22/05/10 at 57 mph. I received TWO tickets which were recorded 13 SECONDS apart at Ladybower and Bamford. I contacted the Casualty Reduction Team (ticket office) and was told there were actually 2 mobile cameras less than 400 yards apart but it would be classed as a continuous offence so one of the tickets was void. Points I'd like to make here are that, in Manchester, I would only receive a caution for travelling at 10%+2 over the limit whereas Derbyshire appear to be a bit cash-strapped to resort to fixed penalties for the minimum speed on the ACPO guidelines. Secondly, the cameras only seem to appear at weekends in sunny weather when bikers are more likely to use the road (anti-bike policy or my paranoia?). Thirdly, aren't these cameras supposed to be a safety measure? - If the speed limit was 60mph three years ago, how can 57mph be regarded as unsafe now? Surely the vast majority of speed-related accidents that happened then and now involved vehicles travelling well in excess of 60mph. Finally, isn't it a bit sneaky to have 2 cameras so close together?

Gripe over, back to work. ;)

All of your points are valid, and none of them are any excuse for breaking the speed limit. :cool:

All of your points are valid, and none of them are any excuse for breaking the speed limit. :cool:

And as if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared...

All of your points are valid, and none of them are any excuse for breaking the speed limit. :cool:

I'm not making excuses - totally guilty but it all seems a bit OTT on a road that was safe to ride at 60mph for so long and yet has only been further restricted since the police forces have been allowed to keep the cash from cameras.:hihi:

The police forces are not able to keep the cash. But it is an unnecessarily low limit.

I'm not making excuses


A refreshing change. An awful lot of people try to argue that they shouldn't have to pay the fine because "it used to be 60," or "the cameras were too close together," or "it was a clear day and no other traffic..."


I've argue many a time and oft that speed limits should be raised on some roads, but while they exist, we must stick to them or pay the fine for not doing. Whether the cameras are ten miles apart or ten yards is really a complete irrelevance.

There are only a few places on Snake where they can sit with camera cars - they are normally in the layby on the long straight after you go over the hill past the reservoirs - and that's a dull bit for driving on anyway. Just go as fast as you dare on the uphill twisty bit later on instead. I had the back of my front-wheel drive car step out there once, which was my first warning that the rear bushes were shot. See, driving fast is useful.

(NOTE: I'm not being entirely serious here)

As an update to this thread, I was ticketed for speeding on the A57 on 22/05/10 at 57 mph. I received TWO tickets which were recorded 13 SECONDS apart at Ladybower and Bamford. I contacted the Casualty Reduction Team (ticket office) and was told there were actually 2 mobile cameras less than 400 yards apart but it would be classed as a continuous offence so one of the tickets was void. Points I'd like to make here are that, in Manchester, I would only receive a caution for travelling at 10%+2 over the limit whereas Derbyshire appear to be a bit cash-strapped to resort to fixed penalties for the minimum speed on the ACPO guidelines. Secondly, the cameras only seem to appear at weekends in sunny weather when bikers are more likely to use the road (anti-bike policy or my paranoia?). Thirdly, aren't these cameras supposed to be a safety measure? - If the speed limit was 60mph three years ago, how can 57mph be regarded as unsafe now? Surely the vast majority of speed-related accidents that happened then and now involved vehicles travelling well in excess of 60mph. Finally, isn't it a bit sneaky to have 2 cameras so close together?

Gripe over, back to work. ;)

Doesn't say much for you observational skills though. The vans are there regularly, as you say at weekends and particularly on nice days. Pootle down the straights, pass the points where they wait and then get on with your journey after that.

Secondly, the cameras only seem to appear at weekends in sunny weather when bikers are more likely to use the road (anti-bike policy or my paranoia?).

Considering there were two motorcyclist deaths on Derbyshire's twistiest roads at the weekend when it was sunny, fair play to them.

With the police presence on the snake on Saturday im suprised you didnt see them! They were on either side of the bridge before the turn off to fairholmes, then in the layby and the 2 camera vans (1 in each direction). Dunno if there was any more, only went up as far as the pub.

A refreshing change. An awful lot of people try to argue that they shouldn't have to pay the fine because "it used to be 60," or "the cameras were too close together," or "it was a clear day and no other traffic..."


I've argue many a time and oft that speed limits should be raised on some roads, but while they exist, we must stick to them or pay the fine for not doing. Whether the cameras are ten miles apart or ten yards is really a complete irrelevance.

Not quite true, as the previous poster points out there is the concept of a continuous offence. If you pass two cameras close together at speed then you've only broken the speed limit once. Hence you are only fined once.

Considering there were two motorcyclist deaths on Derbyshire's twistiest roads at the weekend when it was sunny, fair play to them.

I guess they were in the wrong place then, or maybe speed camera vans don't actually make the roads any safer.

Not quite true, as the previous poster points out there is the concept of a continuous offence. If you pass two cameras close together at speed then you've only broken the speed limit once. Hence you are only fined once.

Indeed, I didn't make that post entirely clear.

Considering there were two motorcyclist deaths on Derbyshire's twistiest roads at the weekend when it was sunny, fair play to them.

I don't see the relevance. How many motorists/pedestrians were killed on Derbyshire's roads last week?

Doesn't say much for you observational skills though. The vans are there regularly, as you say at weekends and particularly on nice days. Pootle down the straights, pass the points where they wait and then get on with your journey after that.


I know. I was too busy watching the wildlife to notice the farm animals. ;)

As an update to this thread, I was ticketed for speeding on the A57 on 22/05/10 at 57 mph. I received TWO tickets which were recorded 13 SECONDS apart at Ladybower and Bamford. I contacted the Casualty Reduction Team (ticket office) and was told there were actually 2 mobile cameras less than 400 yards apart but it would be classed as a continuous offence so one of the tickets was void. Points I'd like to make here are that, in Manchester, I would only receive a caution for travelling at 10%+2 over the limit whereas Derbyshire appear to be a bit cash-strapped to resort to fixed penalties for the minimum speed on the ACPO guidelines. Secondly, the cameras only seem to appear at weekends in sunny weather when bikers are more likely to use the road (anti-bike policy or my paranoia?). Thirdly, aren't these cameras supposed to be a safety measure? - If the speed limit was 60mph three years ago, how can 57mph be regarded as unsafe now? Surely the vast majority of speed-related accidents that happened then and now involved vehicles travelling well in excess of 60mph. Finally, isn't it a bit sneaky to have 2 cameras so close together?

Gripe over, back to work. ;)

These cameras have nothing whatsoever to do with safety, the only stretch of road they monitor is the safest part between Sheffield and Glossop and also the only spot where some people can overtake. They are there to give out as many tickets and fines as possible, this is the sole reason for their purpose.

I often wondered how many cars went over the edge and were never seen or found, would that be possible, or is it not as deeper drop as it looks ?

Considering there were two motorcyclist deaths on Derbyshire's twistiest roads at the weekend when it was sunny, fair play to them.

Just shows that reducing the speed limit to 50 on every major road through the Peak District has had no effect whatsoever.

These cameras have nothing whatsoever to do with safety, the only stretch of road they monitor is the safest part between Sheffield and Glossop and also the only spot where some people can overtake. They are there to give out as many tickets and fines as possible, this is the sole reason for their purpose.

Assuming you are entirely correct, there is still no reason to complain about them because no law-abiding driver will ever be ticketed or fined.

Just shows that reducing the speed limit to 50 on every major road through the Peak District has had no effect whatsoever.

It makes it a bit more peaceful for the cows and sheep though:D.

Assuming you are entirely correct, there is still no reason to complain about them because no law-abiding driver will ever be ticketed or fined.

Complaining about the camera's is a proxy for complaining about the speed limit. So there is reason to complain, the limit is incorrect and enforcing it is perverse.

Assuming you are entirely correct, there is still no reason to complain about them because no law-abiding driver will ever be ticketed or fined.

lol, if they are not serving the purpose we are told they are for we should not complain about being lied to?

I bet you think ID cards were a great idea too

BAAAAAAA

talking to some bikers on the snake today, they said the 50mph limit is vital.

talking to some bikers on the snake today, they said the 50mph limit is vital.

based on the last couple of times I've been over (four times in the last month) I'd suggest that is because it makes it even easier for them to overtake whenever they feel like it.

Just shows that reducing the speed limit to 50 on every major road through the Peak District has had no effect whatsoever.
And of course you've reviewed data from before and after the speed limit changes on all those roads before reaching this conclusion?

The effects of safety improvements can only really be properly evaluated over a period of years. 3 to 5 years is about the norm.

talking to some bikers on the snake today, they said the 50mph limit is vital.

Shame they don't take any notice of it then.

And of course you've reviewed data from before and after the speed limit changes on all those roads before reaching this conclusion?

The effects of safety improvements can only really be properly evaluated over a period of years. 3 to 5 years is about the norm.

With regards to the Snake then, the first 3 years are up. Wonder what the results are?

With regards to the Snake then, the first 3 years are up. Wonder what the results are?

A57 Snake Road / Mobile No.91 / location established 1/11/2003.
Collision Stats
Personal Injury collisions (PIC's) for the 3 years before established date and for the most recent 3 years (up to Nov. 2008)
16 and 6 respectively.
Killed and serious injuries (KSI's) for the 3 years before established date and for the most recent 3 years (up to Nov. 2008)
7 and 2 respectively.
As for data since Nov. 2008, I suggest you send a FOI request.

From Derbyshire Safety Camera Partnership, follow:
(http://www.slowitdown.co.uk/F-O-I.html and scroll down to "Derbyshire Fixed and Mobile Collision Stats")

These cameras have nothing whatsoever to do with safety, the only stretch of road they monitor is the safest part between Sheffield and Glossop and also the only spot where some people can overtake. They are there to give out as many tickets and fines as possible, this is the sole reason for their purpose.

Sorry to repeat what Planner1 wrote - You will have checked the stats of course before repeating what a man told you in the pub?

http://www.slowitdown.co.uk/F-O-I.html
and scroll down to Derbyshire Fixed and Mobile collision stats.

50mph limit on a long straight... Collect revenue with "safety" cameras on the easiest stretch of the road to drive.... then drive off on to a windy B road and the limit rises to 60.

Bloomin insane.

I received a ticket for doing 48 in a 40 zone. No defence, I paid up. But the motorbike that was overtaking me at the time (and that was in the photograph I requested!) wouldn't have got a ticket because he didn't have a forward facing numberplate! I wrote to the Chief Plod, and asked if I could take mine off as well. He was unsympathetic.

I now tend to drive very slowly everywhere, just in case.

To reminisce, the 'agreed' Snake Pass was from the end of the 30 limit past the Bell Hagg Inn on Manchester Road, to the 30 limit at Glossop Golf Course. Anything sub 20 minutes was very good, I just managed that once in a 2.9 Sierra 4X4. My pal in a Quattro knocked 5 minutes off that. .... Young and daft, and with little traffic, 20 years ago.

50mph limit on a long straight... Collect revenue


I beg to differ. 50mph limit on a long straight will not collect any revenue at all.

Except, that is, from people who are breaking the law of the land and should be fined for doing so.

9 minutes! Your personal best? You *do* have some sort of alarm that goes off so you can repeat that comment ad nauseum.

Only bloody got home to find a speeding ticket for doing 58 down the Snake. ****

50mph limit on a long straight... Collect revenue with "safety" cameras on the easiest stretch of the road to drive.... then drive off on to a windy B road and the limit rises to 60.

Bloomin insane.

You misunderstand the basis of giving a road NSL status - it is the default, the authorities haven't got around to giving it any other limit because events have not suggested they should. So the really narrow, twisty apparent death traps of roads aren't generally the death traps you imagine since they are self-regulating (not a lot of traffic, for starters, and NSL is difficult to maintain for very long. It would take a real idiot or two on these roads to kill themselves for a review of the road to be carried out. On the main roads where the limit has been dropped to 50 it's a pure numbers and probability game - if there's enough drivers in a hurry to get from A to B ready to risk a given speed and/or overtaking sooner or later someone will come to grief and the hope is that the lower prevailing speed generated by the lower limit will generate less grief.
The authorities' response of a reduced limit and camera enforcement may indeed be ineffective in the long run with the cross-section of driver attitudes expressed on here but the alternative to let drivers get on with it as they fancy costs lives and money or is it money and lives?

9 minutes! Your personal best? You *do* have some sort of alarm that goes off so you can repeat that comment ad nauseum.

I don't merely parrot it out at intervals; it is always, and invariably, a response to someone who is not aware of the fact.

50mph limit on a long straight... Collect revenue with "safety" cameras on the easiest stretch of the road to drive.... then drive off on to a windy B road and the limit rises to 60.

Bloomin insane.

The difference in speed limits is because it's in two counties. The Derbyshire bit is 50 and that is because of their approach to casualty reduction.

The cameras appear to be sited in the only suitable locations where the vans can park.

What is it with people coming on here complaining every time they get a speeding ticket?
The snake is a dangerous road to travell at speed, hence the speed limit.
Pay the fine, and be thankful you didn't kill yourself or someone else.:rant:

The snake is a dangerous road to travell at speed, hence the speed limit.


Some parts of it are - arguably - safe to travel at 60; notably the part where the speed cameras can be found, on a long straight section.

Where people err is in thinking that because a given speed limit should be changed, means they are justified in ignoring it, or have any grounds for complaint if they get caught doing so.

I agree, there's no excuse for ignoring speed limits.
The problem seems to be in a lot of cases that the limits don't suit the road.
Slightly off topic I know...but Barnsley Road from the Tesco roundbout to the Wednesday Ground is single carriageway and a 40mph limit, with housing either side of the road. From the Wednesday Ground turning left on a dual carriageway with little housing is 30mph. It doesn't make sense.

Back to the snake......I agree there are arguably some sections where over 50mph is safe, but a blanket 50mph is imposed. Most of the snake can't be driven safely at over 50mph. It's no good complaining if you get fined, you broke the speed limit...end of.

I beg to differ. 50mph limit on a long straight will not collect any revenue at all.

Except, that is, from people who are breaking the law of the land and should be fined for doing so.

The fact that they choose the safest part of the road, where the limit is the most inappropriate puts the lie to it being anything to do with safety though.
The law, yes, safety, no.

Back to the snake......I agree there are arguably some sections where over 50mph is safe, but a blanket 50mph is imposed. Most of the snake can't be driven safely at over 50mph. It's no good complaining if you get fined, you broke the speed limit...end of.

The vast majority of the snake can be safely driven at over 50mph. A few corners are the only sections you can't do that speed (in good weather).

Of course they don't enforce the limit on any of the sections where it might be dangerous, they enforce it on the only section where it should obviously be a 60 limit.

The problem is the working party who decided to change the name from "speed cameras" to "safety cameras".

As for that straight 50mph stretch. IIRC there are lots of holes in walls and damage to the barrier immediately before / after that stretch, which kind of tells you that people are breaking the speed limit, failing to slow in time and having an accident. And on a pretty blind bend too.

So you could argue that they are safety cameras.

The vast majority of the snake can be safely driven at over 50mph. A few corners are the only sections you can't do that speed (in good weather).

Of course they don't enforce the limit on any of the sections where it might be dangerous, they enforce it on the only section where it should obviously be a 60 limit.
As I said earlier, they can't enforce with cameras on the tighter sections because there is nowhere to park the camera van.

It doesn't matter how fast you or I think we can drive the road, the simple fact is that there are collisions occurring on a frequent basis. The number of holes in walls, bent barriers and parts of vehicles littering the place are ample testimony to that. Lowering the speed limit is Derbyshire's way of trying to mitigate the effects of those collisions. The same thing is done elsewhere, it appears to be an accepted way of reducing casualty numbers or severity of casualties.

As a recent daily user of the Snake Pass I've seen collisions on the twisty bits, but also on the straight bits. Several times I've had to anchor up and stop to narrowly avoid head on collisions with people overtaking, who have misjudged it on the straight bits.

When was the last collision on the section where the speed limit is being enforced?
If there hasn't been one, then why even bother enforcing it there.
It wouldn't be the revenue of course, and it isn't safety, what does that leave, bloody mindedness?

You also have to wonder at the logic behind, "cars are crashing because they are speeding and can't control it, ah, lets lower the limit that'll somehow solve the problem". Was it dreamt up by a five year old? If people were breaking the NSL, what makes anyone think that they won't break a 50 limit?
And finally, I'd expect that a majority of the accidents take place in poor conditions, wet, dark, icy even. Which raises two points, in those conditions 50 is still sufficient speed to loose control and secondly why is the limit only enforced on the safe bits of road on sunny weekend days?

When was the last collision on the section where the speed limit is being enforced?
If there hasn't been one, then why even bother enforcing it there.
It wouldn't be the revenue of course, and it isn't safety, what does that leave, bloody mindedness?

You also have to wonder at the logic behind, "cars are crashing because they are speeding and can't control it, ah, lets lower the limit that'll somehow solve the problem". Was it dreamt up by a five year old? If people were breaking the NSL, what makes anyone think that they won't break a 50 limit?
And finally, I'd expect that a majority of the accidents take place in poor conditions, wet, dark, icy even. Which raises two points, in those conditions 50 is still sufficient speed to loose control and secondly why is the limit only enforced on the safe bits of road on sunny weekend days?

They enforce where they can. People do exceed the speed limit in those places and it is an offence. It is certainly within the remit of safety camera partnerships to enforce within a reasonable distance of accident hotspots. Often there is little point enforcing at the actual accident site, it's better to try to get people to slow down BEFORE they reach that point.

The theory is that if vehicles are travelling generally slower, then, when collisions do occur, the resulting injuries will be less severe. Accidents are not always caused by speed, but the speed does affect the severity of injuries.

I've come across quite a few accidents on there and almost been involved in a few, none of them were in inclement conditions. People tend to drive slower and more cautiously on there when weather is bad.

It's well established that people slow down for cameras and possible camera location, so why would anyone still believe such a theory?

You also have to wonder at the logic behind, "cars are crashing because they are speeding and can't control it, ah, lets lower the limit that'll somehow solve the problem". Was it dreamt up by a five year old? If people were breaking the NSL, what makes anyone think that they won't break a 50 limit?

So what's your solution?

They've put up signs to slow people down, they're ignored.

They've reduced the speed limit, that's ignored.

They put up a mobile speed camera, people moan.

Not everyone who uses the Snake uses it regularly. It could just be possible that someone has crashed because they didn't realise a bend was so sharp and they took it at 60 mph because "that was the speed limit".

It's well established that people slow down for cameras and possible camera location


A good argument for hiding them and not letting people know where they are. That way, they'd have to stick to the speed limits everywhere, or risk being fined.

So what's your solution?

They've put up signs to slow people down, they're ignored.

They've reduced the speed limit, that's ignored.

They put up a mobile speed camera, people moan.

Not everyone who uses the Snake uses it regularly. It could just be possible that someone has crashed because they didn't realise a bend was so sharp and they took it at 60 mph because "that was the speed limit".

Call it natural selection then, if they survive take away their driving license.
Obviously that's a bit callous and not a real solution, and they may well hurt someone else whilst crashing and at the very least cost society money as we have to recover their car and hose their blood of the road.
What I wouldn't do though is implement a 'solution' that is obviously not addressing the problem that has been identified. Only a politician would do that in order to be seen to be doing something. And the extra revenue the fines generate are nothing to do with it of course, that would be far too cynical.

A good argument for hiding them and not letting people know where they are. That way, they'd have to stick to the speed limits everywhere, or risk being fined.

As P1 already pointed out, there are no places on the snake to hide cameras. And of course a hidden camera still doesn't fulfil the supposed purpose of causing people to drive more safely.
The speed camera experiment has failed, it's nothing more than a revenue generation service now.

Call it natural selection then, if they survive take away their driving license.


Putting cameras on the straight section will achieve the licence removal without waiting for them to die. Anyone caught four times is off the road and dealt with.

And of course a hidden camera still doesn't fulfil the supposed purpose of causing people to drive more safely.


And of course it does, as I said to begin with. If cameras are hidden and everywhere, a driver either sticks to the speed limit everywhere, or he loses his licence because he keeps getting caught.

And of course it does, as I said to begin with. If cameras are hidden and everywhere, a driver either sticks to the speed limit everywhere, or he loses his licence because he keeps getting caught.

You're equating more slowly with more safely.

You're equating more slowly with more safely.

Which is how it is.

Take a bend at 40-50 mph and you'll come out the other side.

Go any faster than that and you're another person who's punctured a hole in the wall.

You also have to wonder at the logic behind, "cars are crashing because they are speeding and can't control it, ah, lets lower the limit that'll somehow solve the problem". Was it dreamt up by a five year old? If people were breaking the NSL, what makes anyone think that they won't break a 50 limit?

The 'logic' is a result of a half-arsed policy implementation by Derbyshire County Council.

DCC were required to carry out a safety assessment of all major roads. They decided that this simply translated into a blanket "lower the speed limit to 50mph wherever possible on the county's single-carriageway major roads". Other counties have assessed by individually examining major roads and implementing safety measures as required in particular areas. I'll leave it to others to decide if cost, time and resources played a major part here.

The result of this decision is that many of Derbyshire's major roads that have been designed, engineered and signed for the national speed limit are restricted to 50mph. Smaller country roads - which were never subject to the safety assessment - escaped this treatment, and so are now carrying more traffic at 60mph, frustrated at the lower speed limits on major roads. I think you can work out the consequences

In the grand scheme of things, is 10 mph going to make that much of a difference to your journey?

I'd say the problem is more with those who pootle along at 40mph or less, and they enrage Johnny commuter or rep who then feels he needs to make up that lost two minutes of time!

I'd say the problem is more with those who pootle along at 40mph or less, and they enrage Johnny commuter or rep who then feels he needs to make up that lost two minutes of time!

Which is precisely why Johnny commuter should be encouraged to stay on the major roads. The current DCC policy is making smaller county lanes attractive to these drivers, which has consequent implications for safety.

A blanket reduction to 50mph in Derbyshire has only had the result of driving up the overall accident rate.

And of course it does, as I said to begin with. If cameras are hidden and everywhere, a driver either sticks to the speed limit everywhere, or he loses his licence because he keeps getting caught.

Australia has a policy of hidden speed camera's, can you tell me if they have a zero accident rate, or the safest roads in the world?

In the grand scheme of things, is 10 mph going to make that much of a difference to your journey?

I'd say the problem is more with those who pootle along at 40mph or less, and they enrage Johnny commuter or rep who then feels he needs to make up that lost two minutes of time!

You can't have it both ways, either 10 mph is significant in both journey time and safety, or it isn't.
Given the nature of the change of the limit on the snake and the way it's enforced, it manages to be both annoying and to actually make the road more dangerous. Maybe the close calls that P1 keeps having with over takers are because they feel that they can travel safely at 60 mph.

As to the 2 minutes. I've driven over the snake a fair amount, in both heavy and light traffic. The difference between being stuck in a queue moving at 40 and not seeing another car is more like 20 minutes.

And finally HeadingNorth, the current enforcement policy will not remove the license from those drivers. Most of them will get one ticket if they are unlucky, that doesn't stop them speeding up and going through a wall on the rest of the pass. Prevention is obviously better than punishment though, so why not ensure that they are competent drivers rather than setting an arbitrarily low limit which achieves nothing towards making the road safer.

According to a biking website, the Snake is approximately 18 miles.

Using this (http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/speed_distance_time_calc.html) calculator, it takes 21 minutes to travel that distance at 50mph, 27 minutes at 40mph. Even at 30mph it would only take 36 minutes.

According to a biking website, the Snake is approximately 18 miles.

Using this (http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/speed_distance_time_calc.html) calculator, it takes 21 minutes to travel that distance at 50mph, 27 minutes at 40mph. Even at 30mph it would only take 36 minutes.

Its a good job you dont work for DCC or SCC if thats what you are suggesting!

Sounds about right, technically I'm including the road from the end of Rivelin valley to the Ladybower as well, although mostly a NSL zone, you still get the 40/50 mph people at times.
That probably adds on close to another 10 miles.
Of course on both of these sections of road you have to slow down at some corners, so someone doing 50 will slow down to 40 or less at corners, someone doing 60 would do the same but for both journeys that reduces the average speed and increases the time.

Finger in the air, if the average speed is 10 mph less than the 'cruising' speed with an NSL limit it would take (from Rivelin valley to Glossop)
33 minutes.
At a speed of 50 (thus an average of 40) 42 minutes.
And at a speed of 40 (real Sunday driver or lorry speed) 56 minutes.

Which happens to be almost exactly the 20 minute difference I mentioned.

Hands up to talking about more than just the snake though when I said 20 minutes difference.

The only way you're going to solve this matter is to build this (http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m67_manchester_to_sheffield_motorway/)

A good argument for hiding them and not letting people know where they are. That way, they'd have to stick to the speed limits everywhere, or risk being fined.

You actively enjoy the thought of people receiving these petty fines don't you? No doubt you're reading this thread one handed and salivating.

Which is how it is.

Take a bend at 40-50 mph and you'll come out the other side.

Go any faster than that and you're another person who's punctured a hole in the wall.

Does this apply to any bend in any car with any level of driver skill?

Don't bother to answer, just pointing out how nonsensical you're being.

A blanket reduction to 50mph in Derbyshire has only had the result of driving up the overall accident rate.

And there it is. Great work by the planners there

A blanket reduction to 50mph in Derbyshire has only had the result of driving up the overall accident rate.
And the the statistics to back this up this contention are?

The fact that they choose the safest part of the road, where the limit is the most inappropriate puts the lie to it being anything to do with safety though.
The law, yes, safety, no.

Do they have undercover cars? I mean if they can't put speed camera's on the dangerous bits I bet if they drove up and down it they could get people for driving dangerously (overtaking on blind bends which I have seen nutters do quite a few times because they are too impatient).

Which is how it is.

Take a bend at 40-50 mph and you'll come out the other side.

Go any faster than that and you're another person who's punctured a hole in the wall.

Nonsense. Conditions, car and driver all have a massive effect. In a small car with spindly wheels 60mph can be unsafe, in something more suited with good tyres the grip and level of control are not even an issue.

And there it is. Great work by the planners there

Yes, it seems it is great work, because if you look at the road casualty statistics for Derbyshire: http://www.saferroadsderbyshire.org.uk/images/CAS%20by%20YEAR%20to%202009%20DDRSP_tcm28-135734.pdf
You'll see that the numbers are falling year on year and they are on track to meet government targets for a 40% reduction in casualties.

Yes, it seems it is great work, because if you look at the road casualty statistics for Derbyshire: http://www.saferroadsderbyshire.org.uk/images/CAS%20by%20YEAR%20to%202009%20DDRSP_tcm28-135734.pdf
You'll see that the numbers are falling year on year and they are on track to meet government targets for a 40% reduction in casualties.

Spoken like a true planner. Always good to know who your masters are.

Not to say it isn't a laudable aim but surely if the aim is purely to meet an arbitrary target it can have unintended consequences i.e. Crippling a road system.

Do they have undercover cars? I mean if they can't put speed camera's on the dangerous bits I bet if they drove up and down it they could get people for driving dangerously (overtaking on blind bends which I have seen nutters do quite a few times because they are too impatient).

I'd be all in favour of this, then they could actually go about tackling dangerous/incompetent driving. Also I'll bet that a patrol car has considerably less cost to the taxpayer than a scamera van. You could probably get 2 or 3 cars for the same cost.

Spoken like a true planner. Always good to know who your masters are.

Not to say it isn't a laudable aim but surely if the aim is purely to meet an arbitrary target it can have unintended consequences i.e. Crippling a road system.

It's fairly obvious seeing as Government set the targets and provide the funding.

Exactly which road system has been "crippled" by reducing the speed limit from 60 to 50 and where's your evidence for such an assertion?

I'd be all in favour of this, then they could actually go about tackling dangerous/incompetent driving. Also I'll bet that a patrol car has considerably less cost to the taxpayer than a scamera van. You could probably get 2 or 3 cars for the same cost.
Think again, the "undercover" cars are often Imprezas / Evos or suchlike, which aren't cheap, plus they have a lot of extra equipment fitted. They are also generally crewed by 2 police officers, who don't come cheap. The camera van is just a white van with a tripod mounted speed gun in the back and one person operating it. Not exactly expensive in comparison.

Clearly the 50 mph needs lowering further as people are still having accidents.
same will apply to 40 mph
then 30 mph
then 20 mph

The problem really revolves around the question of people driving at the correct speed in the conditions/and within limits of their own driving ability allow.

If they're outside that limit they'll crash regardless.

The snakes problem is that you get one person who because it is windey (is that a word?!) decides they will only do 30, this then creates a jam behind them, making people more inclined to overtake when they maybe wouldn't usually as they know they will be stuck behind said incompetent driver for the next 14 miles.

I have driven that road hundreds of times and if you were to stop at the beginning by the dams and reset your average speed calculator and then stop in Glossop, it actually takes some real effort to get your average much over 60 anyhow, or so I am told ;)

You actively enjoy the thought of people receiving these petty fines don't you?


No, I don't. I object to the Government filling its coffers just as much as anybody else would. That's why I keep reminding everybody that they can avoid paying any by the simple expedient of not breaking the law.

It's just like having Hayesey back on the Forum really.

trouble is,the only reason ppl tailgate and over take is because other
road users drive 10 & 20 mph below the speed limits on 60 mph roads.
i'm seriously thinkin of getting another bike because i'm sick to death
of ppl dozying about,busy talkin to passengers pointing places of interest out and so on,also,why does it take ppl so long to set off from traffic lights???

I have driven that road hundreds of times and if you were to stop at the beginning by the dams and reset your average speed calculator and then stop in Glossop, it actually takes some real effort to get your average much over 60 anyhow, or so I am told ;)

What's your best time? I've done Eccy Road to Prestwich in 65 minutes on a Friday at 6pm. Never managed much quicker I don't think.

Personally, I think the reduction to 50 mph is a joke.

Granted, in some of the twistier sections even 50 mph may be too fast and obviously anyone with half a brain cell isn't going to want to go too fast for the bends, regardless of the speed limit.

What I am appalled by is the fact that the limit is enforced by a camera van on the straightest section of this road, the one where it is safest to overtake a lorry, dozy driver, tractor, etc.I could accept the 50 limit if the straight section was still the National Speed Limit from Ladybower until just before the twisty section. Even so, I find it frustrating that before the 50 limit was imposed, I never saw the camera van on the Snake and now, its there more often than not. Safety my arse.

Yes, we could go on about drivers doing silly overtakes being a reason for the reduction but I think that would happen anyway, regardless of any speed limit on this road because there is always someone on there who wants to drive at a crawl and someone else who wants to be Colin McRae.

But as this thread is about the speed limit for this road, I really do think it has been reduced for money purposes. Some may ask me to produce statistics to back it up knowing full well I can't. And I would wager that any statistics regarding this section of road are probably biased anyway.

But how come since the limit was reduced, suddenly the road needs MORE enforcement? Its the blind bind overtaking idiots I've mentioned previously that need sorting out, not the guy briefly doing 60 mph to SAFELY and previously LEGALLY pass a Nissan Micra driver gawping at the hills.

I do hope the National Speed Limit is restored on there.

Looks even more silly when you get single track twisting roads that are de-restricted.

Good post singo by the way.

But as this thread is about the speed limit for this road, I really do think it has been reduced for money purposes. Some may ask me to produce statistics to back it up knowing full well I can't. And I would wager that any statistics regarding this section of road are probably biased anyway.

But how come since the limit was reduced, suddenly the road needs MORE enforcement? Its the blind bind overtaking idiots I've mentioned previously that need sorting out, not the guy briefly doing 60 mph to SAFELY and previously LEGALLY pass a Nissan Micra driver gawping at the hills.

It appears that Derbyshire have a policy of reducing the speed limit to 50 on their major national speed limit roads. If you check the link on post #128 you will see their injury accident statistics for the past few years, which show a year on year reduction in road casualties, so you must agree that their policies seem to be working.

The Government has been mounting a big push to reduce road casualties by 40% by this year, which Derbyshire look to have achieved. Speed limit changes, enforcement and targeted road safety measures will be part of this effort.

I have never, ever come across an instance where enforcement is carried out just to raise money. It's always part of the effort to reduce road casualties, which are a huge cost to the nation. If you wanted the stats for the snake pass, I'm sure Derbyshire Council would oblige if you asked them. I can't see how the stats could be biased, only injury accidents are recorded and people have either been killed or injured or they haven't.

Thanks for your reply Planner1.

Sorry to be a cynic but I don't trust statistics as we all know they can be manipulated to put across whatvere message you want them to. Just be selective with the data that is used.

Your post was informative and I appreciate the time you took to explain things to me and others.

As for the limit and enforcement of it, I think the Snake would do well if it had the SPECs cameras like the Stocksbridge bypass. It would allow for a brief overtake should you be stuck behind a slower moving vehicle and would probably slow down Johnny Rep/ pseudo Colin McRae. The SPEC's system can now be rear facing so that the Power Rangers who like to take their sportsbikes up there so they can be Valentino Rossi for the afternoon wouldn't be able to get away with it either as their numberplates will be recorded.

I'm a biker myself and to be honest, on the hot days of the year I have more close calls with other so called bikers than anyone else. Anything that deters them from treating me like another "racer" is a good thing in my book.

But please get rid of that camera van on the safest part of the Snake where the limit should be National Speed Limt.

i came over snake about midnight last night, ******* it down and fog, no visability. Twas a nightmare!

I go over and back few times a week and never seen any camera vans?

The trouble with the Snake is the number of people you crawl along at 30mph especially at the weekends. What is really needed is a minimum speed limit. If your driving skill or car isn't up to driving at that speed them you shouldn't be on the road! It drives me mad to be stuck behind these crawlers too interested in admiring the scenery or talking to their passengers to concentrate on driving. The police should have unmarked cars out to target and ticket these people for dangerous driving, not penalising confident drivers for driving at 57mph...

It appears that Derbyshire have a policy of reducing the speed limit to 50 on their major national speed limit roads. If you check the link on post #128 you will see their injury accident statistics for the past few years, which show a year on year reduction in road casualties, so you must agree that their policies seem to be working.

The Government has been mounting a big push to reduce road casualties by 40% by this year, which Derbyshire look to have achieved. Speed limit changes, enforcement and targeted road safety measures will be part of this effort.

I have never, ever come across an instance where enforcement is carried out just to raise money. It's always part of the effort to reduce road casualties, which are a huge cost to the nation. If you wanted the stats for the snake pass, I'm sure Derbyshire Council would oblige if you asked them. I can't see how the stats could be biased, only injury accidents are recorded and people have either been killed or injured or they haven't.

Really :D:D