It seems the great man is on his death bed.
Will his passing cause the same problems as Titos did I wonder.
The American gangsters have long aimed to reclaim Cuba as their Casino/Brothel since they are not allowed these things at home.

A GREAT MAN not the view of many cubans and when hes gone even more will be able to speak without limitations.

and buy a new car -
oh sorry they live in a state of deprivation and won't be able to but one anyway.

Great man, my arse. Not great if you're gay or a trade unionist in Cuba.

It seems the great man is on his death bed.
Will his passing cause the same problems as Titos did I wonder.
The American gangsters have long aimed to reclaim Cuba as their Casino/Brothel since they are not allowed these things at home.

Are you being serious here:confused: ?

Are you being serious here:confused: ?

Yes I am, he stood against the Mafia, wh owere using the Cuban people as an entertainment media, and threw them out.
The American establishment never forgave him for this.
Joe Kennedy made his fortune from the raketteering that occurred during prohibition by running booze fom Cuba to the USA.
It was a gangsters paradise until Castro and his followers threw the scum out.

I don't think you're very well informed about what a tyrant he has been to the Cubans. Look it up.

SO then he led Cuba through years of deprivation for decades I think the Cubans will dance for joy when he is gone they cannot say anything while he is alive it,s illegal. think of stalin where are all the statues gone

Are you being serious here:confused: ?


No way is he serious. It's a troll job as usual but I'm game for a play. :hihi:

Castro was in fact a killer who has left cuba 40 years behind the free world.
He did have a good side. He has shown the world what happens when a socialist takes over a country and runs it long term.

Still when he snuffs it and a decent government takes over they will get back into the swing of things. Fair chance it will take them another 10 years to do it.
Pity the normal people have to suffer to prove the great socialist experiment is a total cock up.

still. its a great name though, isnt it?

and for the style of beard he kept, he wore it well.

and he definately isnt a lizard...as far as i know.

still. its a great name though, isnt it?

and for the style of beard he kept, he wore it well.

and he definately isnt a lizard...as far as i know.

Great name ? the name Castro in Cuba is like Smith/Jones.

Great name ? the name Castro in Cuba is like Smith/Jones.

being a common name in no way precludes its 'great'-ness...i happen to think both 'fidel' and 'castro' are pleasingly well-rounded words.

When they are put together it makes, in my own opinion, a good name.

When used to label an iconic yet demonised old duffer, who wears a big scraggy beard, it becomes a great name.

Great man, my arse. Not great if you're gay or a trade unionist in Cuba.
Sounds even greater then.

Sounds even greater then.

What's with you? Hate gays and unionists?

who has left cuba 40 years behind the free world.


Which was probably caused by the US imposed sanctions/trade embargos etc.

Which was probably caused by the US imposed sanctions/trade embargos etc.

yes it was caused by the above but castro brought it on himself by seizing all the american assets in the first place would you work with someone who robbed you blind

by seizing all the american assets in the first place would you work with someone who robbed you blind

Maybe he did it because:

The American gangsters have long aimed to reclaim Cuba as their Casino/Brothel since they are not allowed these things at home.

or

Joe Kennedy made his fortune from the raketteering that occurred during prohibition by running booze fom Cuba to the USA.
It was a gangsters paradise until Castro and his followers threw the scum out.

?

Cuba is very poor country , many needs here both medically and materially
Many small groups are purscuted for their beliefs

Castro's regime has had some great accomplishments like the healthcare & education systems, the economy there is poor but the US embargo means it's hard to tell to what extent that's the fault of the inherently inefficient socialist model.

Regardless of his undoubted achievements though Castro's human rights record is very poor (though in fairness better than the US supported fascist he replaced) he's a dictator who doesn't allow freedom of conscience, expression, association, movement and who is heavily reliant on his secret police.

The fact that Castro's regime has not allowed Amnesty International to visit the country since 1988 tells you all you need to know about the state of human rights there and rather undermines any claims that Castro is 'a Great Man'.

Castro's regime has had some great accomplishments like the healthcare & education systems, the economy there is poor but the US embargo means it's hard to tell to what extent that's the fault of the inherently inefficient socialist model.

Regardless of his undoubted achievements though Castro's human rights record is very poor (though in fairness better than the US supported fascist he replaced) he's a dictator who doesn't allow freedom of conscience, expression, association, movement and who is heavily reliant on his secret police.

The fact that Castro's regime has not allowed Amnesty International to visit the country since 1988 tells you all you need to know about the state of human rights there and rather undermines any claims that Castro is 'a Great Man'.

at least he will die peacefully the other dictator did not

Castro's regime has had some great accomplishments like the healthcare & education systems, the economy there is poor but the US embargo means it's hard to tell to what extent that's the fault of the inherently inefficient socialist model.

.


Every positive statement made about Cuban health care and education is based on the assumption that evidence emanating from official Cuban sources (for example about health and education standards) can be taken at its face value. In fact, the same false assumptions used to be made about other communist regimes and the same specious arguments trotted out - to the effect that, for example, the Soviet Union or East Germany might have bad human rights records, but at least they have good health and education systems. We now know that the statistics on which this evidence was based was largely manufactured and in fact the standards of health care (and indeed of other public services) was appallingly bad in these countries. When the Castro tyranny is eventually toppled, and access is gained to the genuine statistical evidence, I think it highly likely that a very different picture will emerge of Cuba's supposedly positive achievements in recent decades. What is more likely to emerge is a picture of how Cuba's economic and social development has been held back by a megalomaniacal tyrant and his fantasies.

The most enlightening and useful development comparisons ought to be with Latin American development as a whole since 1959 or with Cuba's economic performance before the Castro regime. If we take the latter for example, prior to the Castro 'revolution', Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America (second only to Argentina) and had a GDP per capita comparable to that of Italy or Spain. It had the lowest infant mortality rate of any Latin American country. It ranked third in Latin America for per capita food consumption and also scored highly with regard to per capita usage of consumer goods of various kinds. As a result of the so called 'revolution', in comparison with other Latin American countries Cuba now ranks near the bottom on virtually ever economic indicator relating to consumption of goods, whereas prior to the 'revolution' it was near the top. As for levels of literacy, many other Latin American countries have made huge gains in this regard since the 1950s. As for health care, Cuba's statistics with regard to infant mortality require closer scrutiny, not least because of the very high abortion rate for high risk pregnancies.

The much trumpeted export of Cuban doctors to other developing countries is yet another example of Castro's egotistical obsession with cutting a dash on the world stage. The bottom line is that Cuban living standards have generally declined since 1959 (except for Castro and his nomenklatura) whereas living standards in Latin America as a whole have risen appreciably. Add to this the appalling human rights record of the Castro regime, including a long catalogue of political repression, then it should become clear that the Cuban revolution was a catastrophe for Cuba (its international image sustained only by regime propaganda and by the gullibility or ignorance of certain Western commentators, analysts or idealists hankering after a communist paradise as an alternative to market capitalism).

Are you being serious here:confused: ?

No he's Havana a laugh.:hihi:

Every positive statement made about Cuban health care and education is based on the assumption that evidence emanating from official Cuban sources (for example about health and education standards) can be taken at its face value. In fact, the same false assumptions used to be made about other communist regimes and the same specious arguments trotted out - to the effect that, for example, the Soviet Union or East Germany might have bad human rights records, but at least they have good health and education systems. We now know that the statistics on which this evidence was based was largely manufactured and in fact the standards of health care (and indeed of other public services) was appallingly bad in these countries. When the Castro tyranny is eventually toppled, and access is gained to the genuine statistical evidence, I think it highly likely that a very different picture will emerge of Cuba's supposedly positive achievements in recent decades. What is more likely to emerge is a picture of how Cuba's economic and social development has been held back by a megalomaniacal tyrant and his fantasies.

The most enlightening and useful development comparisons ought to be with Latin American development as a whole since 1959 or with Cuba's economic performance before the Castro regime. If we take the latter for example, prior to the Castro 'revolution', Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America (second only to Argentina) and had a GDP per capita comparable to that of Italy or Spain. It had the lowest infant mortality rate of any Latin American country. It ranked third in Latin America for per capita food consumption and also scored highly with regard to per capita usage of consumer goods of various kinds. As a result of the so called 'revolution', in comparison with other Latin American countries Cuba now ranks near the bottom on virtually ever economic indicator relating to consumption of goods, whereas prior to the 'revolution' it was near the top. As for levels of literacy, many other Latin American countries have made huge gains in this regard since the 1950s. As for health care, Cuba's statistics with regard to infant mortality require closer scrutiny, not least because of the very high abortion rate for high risk pregnancies.

The much trumpeted export of Cuban doctors to other developing countries is yet another example of Castro's egotistical obsession with cutting a dash on the world stage. The bottom line is that Cuban living standards have generally declined since 1959 (except for Castro and his nomenklatura) whereas living standards in Latin America as a whole have risen appreciably. Add to this the appalling human rights record of the Castro regime, including a long catalogue of political repression, then it should become clear that the Cuban revolution was a catastrophe for Cuba (its international image sustained only by regime propaganda and by the gullibility or ignorance of certain Western commentators, analysts or idealists hankering after a communist paradise as an alternative to market capitalism).

This can sumed uo in one word 'by god what nonsense' sorry four words.
Your endless verbiage is starting to rival that of your mates timo. :)
When will you people realise that I am always right?

This can sumed uo in one word 'by god what nonsense' sorry four words.
Your endless verbiage is starting to rival that of your mates timo. :)
When will you people realise that I am always right?

but IMO everything he states does have a ring of the truth

but IMO everything he states does have a ring of the truth

Who, the whirlow chav, or Castro :hihi:

the former of course

the former of course

So now we listen to what chavs tell us do we?
A chav is a chav no matter where he lives.

This can sumed uo in one word 'by god what nonsense' sorry four words.
Your endless verbiage is starting to rival that of your mates timo. :)
When will you people realise that I am always right?

artisan, four letters, ODDM. (Oh deary, deary me) .............Never forget that you are only out on licence. I've tried so hard to stop you posing drivel but I guess a spell in the slammer with me as a nasty nurse is the only thing for it. Bad Boy :nono:

Every positive statement made about Cuban health care and education is based on the assumption that evidence emanating from official Cuban sources (for example about health and education standards) can be taken at its face value. In fact, the same false assumptions used to be made about other communist regimes and the same specious arguments trotted out - to the effect that, for example, the Soviet Union or East Germany might have bad human rights records, but at least they have good health and education systems. We now know that the statistics on which this evidence was based was largely manufactured and in fact the standards of health care (and indeed of other public services) was appallingly bad in these countries. When the Castro tyranny is eventually toppled, and access is gained to the genuine statistical evidence, I think it highly likely that a very different picture will emerge of Cuba's supposedly positive achievements in recent decades. What is more likely to emerge is a picture of how Cuba's economic and social development has been held back by a megalomaniacal tyrant and his fantasies.

The most enlightening and useful development comparisons ought to be with Latin American development as a whole since 1959 or with Cuba's economic performance before the Castro regime. If we take the latter for example, prior to the Castro 'revolution', Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America (second only to Argentina) and had a GDP per capita comparable to that of Italy or Spain. It had the lowest infant mortality rate of any Latin American country. It ranked third in Latin America for per capita food consumption and also scored highly with regard to per capita usage of consumer goods of various kinds. As a result of the so called 'revolution', in comparison with other Latin American countries Cuba now ranks near the bottom on virtually ever economic indicator relating to consumption of goods, whereas prior to the 'revolution' it was near the top. As for levels of literacy, many other Latin American countries have made huge gains in this regard since the 1950s. As for health care, Cuba's statistics with regard to infant mortality require closer scrutiny, not least because of the very high abortion rate for high risk pregnancies.

The much trumpeted export of Cuban doctors to other developing countries is yet another example of Castro's egotistical obsession with cutting a dash on the world stage. The bottom line is that Cuban living standards have generally declined since 1959 (except for Castro and his nomenklatura) whereas living standards in Latin America as a whole have risen appreciably. Add to this the appalling human rights record of the Castro regime, including a long catalogue of political repression, then it should become clear that the Cuban revolution was a catastrophe for Cuba (its international image sustained only by regime propaganda and by the gullibility or ignorance of certain Western commentators, analysts or idealists hankering after a communist paradise as an alternative to market capitalism).

There's a lot of truth in this, although the US trade embargo has hit Cuba hard. What this demonstrates, though, is that you can't have socialism in one country (not that Castro seems much of a socialist anyway). They need to be able to trade, because they are part of the global capitalist system. Take away the trade, watch 'em struggle.

This can sumed uo in one word 'by god what nonsense' sorry four words.
Your endless verbiage is starting to rival that of your mates timo. :)
When will you people realise that I am always right?
Artisan, I must guess that you only accuse that very well-informed post of being nonsense because it shoots down your silly socialist ideals - shattering the illusion that socialism can work in any conceivable way except as a concept within a deluded lefty mind.

I have just eaten a massive loadd of fish and chips and cannot be bothered anhy longer.
Spk Later :P

artisan, four letters, ODDM. (Oh deary, deary me) .............Never forget that you are only out on licence. I've tried so hard to stop you posing drivel but I guess a spell in the slammer with me as a nasty nurse is the only thing for it. Bad Boy :nono:

I look forward to that immensley, but only if you wear the fishnet stockings and high heels :thumbsup:

Which was probably caused by the US imposed sanctions/trade embargos etc.

Now here we find the TRUE story behind Cuba's relative poverty

At the risk of falling out (again) with Lord C, I agree with Artisan's sentiments re Castro - although admittedly I am not happy with his record on human rights.

Had the US not decided to try to force Cuba back into the capitalist fold by economic sanctions/trade embargos/military intervention, I'd like to think the human rights violations may well not have occurred.

The Americans hands are very dirty indeed regarding Cuba.

StarSparkle

Now here we find the TRUE story behind Cuba's relative poverty

At the risk of falling out (again) with Lord C, I agree with Artisan's sentiments re Castro - although admittedly I am not happy with his record on human rights.

Had the US not decided to try to force Cuba back into the capitalist fold by economic sanctions/trade embargos/military intervention, I'd like to think the human rights violations may well not have occurred.

The Americans hands are very dirty indeed regarding Cuba.

StarSparkle

The point is, Cuba has always been in the capitalist fold. You can't take one country, call it socialist, and then expect to be able to exist outside the global capitalist system. The fact that Cuba needs trade shows that it is a capitalist country. Socialism doesn't rely on trade.

The point is, Cuba has always been in the capitalist fold. You can't take one country, call it socialist, and then expect to be able to exist outside the global capitalist system. The fact that Cuba needs trade shows that it is a capitalist country. Socialism doesn't rely on trade.
Well, unless socialists can live on air and sunlight alone, that does just about sum up why socialism is an impossible ideal.

Now here we find the TRUE story behind Cuba's relative poverty
Forty odd years of Castros pig headedness is a little nearer the mark ;)

Had the US not decided to try to force Cuba back into the capitalist fold by economic sanctions/trade embargos/military intervention, I'd like to think the human rights violations may well not have occurred. He just couldn't help it could he? Those nasty Americans... all that forcing Castro into murder, torture, imprisonment and the occasional suppression of political rivals while he has to lie about the truth and keep "his people" in abject penury and technological darkness.

Forty odd years of Castros pig headedness is a little nearer the mark ;)

He just couldn't help it could he? Those nasty Americans... all that forcing Castro into murder, torture, imprisonment and the occasional suppression of political rivals while he has to lie about the truth and keep "his people" in abject penury and technological darkness.

Don't you think the poverty and the keeping of the Cuban people in technological darkness has rather more to do with American sanctions? I suspect so

And still the Cubans offered aid to the Americans when New Orleans was under water...

StarSparkle

Don't you think the poverty and the keeping of the Cuban people in technological darkness has rather more to do with American sanctions? I suspect so

And still the Cubans offered aid to the Americans when New Orleans was under water...

StarSparkle

He's talking about human rights. No amount of sanctions made Castro abuse human rights. That was his choice.

Sorry - missed fact that two things under discussion. Must eat...must eat.

Castro is like piles.

Great for reminding you what an arsehole is, but even better when gone.

He's talking about human rights. No amount of sanctions made Castro abuse human rights. That was his choice.

Sorry - missed fact that two things under discussion. Must eat...must eat.

I'm not saying it's right in any way that Castro abused human rights in his country - of course it wasn't right and I would never say it was. But it makes it understandable to a degree when you consider that the US has effectively been at (undeclared) war with its tiny neighbour for the last 40 years.

Every ruler/government in the world would behave like Castro has in the same situation - most probably much worse. It's not right, but that's what happens when one nation is under siege by another. Everything goes onto a war footing in society.

StarSparkle

Don't you think the poverty and the keeping of the Cuban people in technological darkness has rather more to do with American sanctions?

Not in the slightest.

I think it's 100% because Castro and his cronies wished to perpetuate a myth of outdated and destructive socialism that gave them insurmountable power. Power that they would not have been able to maintain for decades if they had behaved in a manner that was really for the benefit of "The People". Chechescu was shot because his people died in the cold. It's probably fair to say that the favourable Cuban climate kept Castro from the noose.

His "People" will be much better off in all respects, as he quickly rots in his 3rd world grave while his people move on to a 1st world future.

I wondered how long it would be before the embargo excuse would be used in defence of Castro and his regime on this thread.

Firstly, Castro himself precipitated the imposition of the embargo. It was his decision to expropriate and nationalise American assets as one of his first actions when he came to power. This resulted in a partial US embargo. Castro then decided to throw in his lot completely with the Soviet bloc and to engage in a plethora of anti-US rhetoric at the height of the Cold War. It was this stance which led to the complete embargo. Given also that Castro was willing to allow Soviet missile sites on Cuban soil (just 92 miles from the US), and that Cuban foreign policy ever since has sought to make mischief for the US in Latin America and elsewhere, it is no wonder that the US has responded in the way it has. Remember also that the Cuban people have had no say in this relationship at all, because Castro has denied them access to free elections and freeedom of expression.

What Castro did was to throw in Cuba's lot with the communist world, i.e. with a bunch of clapped out and failing command economies. During the Cold War, it suited the communist leaderships in Central and Eastern to subsidise Cuba to the hilt, for propaganda purposes. When Gorbachev pulled the rug of subsidies from under Cuba in 1988, the Castro regime launched a propaganda campaign of its own, blaming the embargo for its economic ills.

Secondly, the embargo is not the primary reason for the failings of the Cuban economy. The main cause is of course the economic system imposed on Cuba by Castro. There is not a single case of a command economy working efficiently or effectively, regardless of whether trade with the outside world is allowed or not. For example, the command economies of Central and Eastern Europe were not generally subject to a trade blockade (except for strategically sensitive goods) and yet they were all economic basket cases. Command economies do not and indeed cannot ever work efficiently or effectively.

Thirdly, Castro's abysmal human rights record is not due to the blockade. As Hayek pointed out in the 'Road to Serfdom' many years ago, command economies are fundamentally incompatible with individual human rights and basic freedoms. Castro's regime ultimately depends on brute force and the threat of savage repression, embargo or no embargo.

Not in the slightest.

I think it's 100% because Castro and his cronies wished to perpetuate a myth of outdated and destructive socialism that gave them insurmountable power. Power that they would not have been able to maintain for decades if they had behaved in a manner that was really for the benefit of "The People". Chechescu was hung because his people died in the cold. It's probably fair to say that the favourable Cuban climate kept Castro from the noose.

His "People" will be much better off in all respects, as he quickly rots in his 3rd world grave while his people move on to a 1st world future.

Oooh, we are getting worked up about it, aren't we? :hihi: What a nice thing to say, hoping someone quickly rots in their grave.

Sorry Tony, but what you say is absolute crap.

StarSparkle

Sorry Tony, but what you say is absolute crap.

Which bit, and why?

Which bit, and why?

What you say is simply not true.

I have already stated what I believe.

StarSparkle

So Castro isn't a single minded military dictator?
He hasn't held on to power while obviously incapable of using it?
He hasn't suppressed democracy by use of the military and secret police?
He hasn't committed massive human rights violations?
He hasn't denied Cubans basic modernity?
He hasn't caused a refugee crisis?
He didn't bring the entire planet to the brink of a nuclear holocaust?



Ahhh!!! Of course, it's all the fault of nasty ol' US of A. ;)

So Castro isn't a single minded military dictator?
He hasn't held on to power while obviously incapable of using it?
He hasn't suppressed democracy by use of the military and secret police?
He hasn't committed massive human rights violations?
He hasn't denied Cubans basic modernity?
He hasn't caused a refugee crisis?
He didn't bring the entire planet to the brink of a nuclear holocaust?

Ahhh!!! Of course, it's all the fault of nasty ol' US of A. ;)

I rather thought it was President Kennedy who very nearly did that through his recklessness?

I would say, yes, it is pretty much all the fault of the 'good old US of A'

It all depends on how you look at it and what your core beliefs are, Tony. I completely disagree with the thrust of all your questions above - you are trying to put blame for everything in that part of the world on Castro, when the fault fairly and squarely belongs with the Americans.

But we'll obviously never agree on this. You are an apologist for capitalism, while I am a Socialist. Our political views will never meet.

StarSparkle

I completely disagree with the thrust of all your questions above - you are trying to put blame for everything in that part of the world on Castro
Not at all, merely in Cuba. There are plenty of other countries in that region that aren't basket cases.

I don't see how the Americans "doing nothing" caused Castro to do anything against his will. :huh: 21st century Cuba is entirely a product of Castro and his regime.

It's simply yet another sorry case study in practice that demonstrates why pure socialism / communism doesn't work.

Not at all, merely in Cuba. There are plenty of other countries in that region that aren't basket cases.

I don't see how the Americans "doing nothing" caused Castro to do anything against his will. :huh: 21st century Cuba is entirely a product of Castro and his regime.

I am with tony on this one with one little proviso if cuba had oil things would have been different the americans would have took it over without a doubt

It's terrible the way Castro tortures people and locks them up without trial, If he only looked to the American run part of Cuba at Guantanamo Bay for an example of how civilized people should behave!

Viva La Revolucion! Viva Castro! Death to the feelthy reeveesionist Greengo peegs! ;)

So Castro isn't a single minded military dictator?
He hasn't held on to power while obviously incapable of using it?
He hasn't suppressed democracy by use of the military and secret police?
He hasn't committed massive human rights violations?
He hasn't denied Cubans basic modernity?
He hasn't caused a refugee crisis?
He didn't bring the entire planet to the brink of a nuclear holocaust?



Ahhh!!! Of course, it's all the fault of nasty ol' US of A. ;)

Off the top of my head you could fire every one but the first of those accusations at a succession of US presidents and they would stick too.


And the point about Kennedy is valid. The missiles in Turkey were the silent 50% of the Cuban missile crisis and the US followed through on their part of the deal and removed them. That finished Khrushchev, and quite possibly the best chance of glasnost until Gorbachev in what, 87? And didn't Kennedy actually triple the US nuclear arsenal?


It's simply yet another sorry case study in practice that demonstrates why pure socialism / communism doesn't work.

Nothing 'pure' exists, let alone works. Pure 'anything' is doomed to failure before it even leaves the page of densely written political philosophy - whatever complexion it is.

I love the sight of Stalinists rowing with capitalists!! :)

I love the sight of Stalinists rowing with capitalists!! :)

Stalinists row, but the capitalists take the ferry.

As far as I know there are still lots of Cubans illegally trying to get to other countries. I don't know of many trying to illegally go back.