I have always found this a fascinating subject, largely because class mobility, and class boundary, has blurred and shifted over the last few decades. Also, class tends to be arbitrary, as people tend to define it in different ways.

Personally, I define it in terms of values and aspirations, rather than cruder measures such as wealth. I also think one's accent and dialect is a very good indicator.

That said, are there really only 3 set classes, or has the class scale become fractioned, or even bilinear ? (e.g. underclass, upper working class, new middle class and so on)

Is the notion of a class system an archaic one? Is it simply a tool to perpetuate regimented inequality? Or do people like to have a sense of belonging to, or identity with, a social group?

Over to the forum.

working class to the bone

Toughie

Since I have to work for a living and have a job I'm working class.
However I only have one debt - the mortgage. And I have enough in savings to pay it off tbh....
Because I'm a qualified professional - does that make me upper working class?

I enjoy fine wines, classical music, opera and the like - would that put me into new middle class - or just mean that I 'have class'

After all some people will never achieve it whether they are born into money/ title or whatever ;)

upper class deffo...yah yah.....

(sol saunters out the door with a top hat on)

Toughie

Since I have to work for a living and have a job I'm working class.
However I only have one debt - the mortgage. And I have enough in savings to pay it off tbh....
Because I'm a qualified professional - does that make me upper working class?

I enjoy fine wines, classical music, opera and the like - would that put me into new middle class - or just mean that I 'have class'

After all some people will never achieve it whether they are born into money/ title or whatever ;)

Indeed. Class is one of the (few) things you simply cannot buy.

You have it - or you don't.

StarSparkle

Top Class :hihi:

working class and proud, always will be.

Top Class :hihi:

Same here mate, we just cant help it.:lol:

There are two classes
Ruling Class
Working Class

No one you know belongs to the former
We all belong to the latter

The so called 'middle class' which so many consider themselves part of does not exist.
It is a figment of working class peoples imagination, created by the bosses to make them work harder for less money.

We of the so called middle class, are workers who are not low lived scum. Neither are we landed gentry. We are the decent people of the land.

Isn't class now defined by socioeconomic groupings.

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Apparently engineering professionals (which is the closest I can find to software engineer) are group 2, sub group 2a.

Personally if I had to choose from the traditional groups then I suppose i'm middle class, my background would be from working class though.

Isn't class now defined by socioeconomic groupings.

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Apparently engineering professionals (which is the closest I can find to software engineer) are group 2, sub group 2a.

Personally if I had to choose from the traditional groups then I suppose i'm middle class, my background would be from working class though.

tbh i believe if your from / your background is working class then your working class, doesnt matter how much wine you drink :P how much money you earn

once working clas always working class

I disagree. Class isn't defined by the job your parents did, or what level of education they had.
It's defined (partly) by the level of education you have, the job you do, your interests and behaviour.
By socioeconomic grouping i'm a professional, by income, education and lifestyle i'm middle class.
I see no point in pretending to be something I'm not, I'm not a manual worker, I don't (to be grossly stereotypical) have a flat cap or a whippet, I have a high level of education etc... Basically I don't match any of the indicators for working class and i do match them for middle class or socioeconomic group 2.

Well my ancestors were upper class until the early part of the 20th century and from then on, my part of the family at least were working class.
Im a mongrel I suppose.

Well my ancestors were upper class until the early part of the 20th century and from then on, my part of the family at least were working class.
Im a mongrel I suppose.

I guess I'm a mongrel too then! :o

My family's upper class on one side; peasant stock on the other!

And I've been brought up middle class :)

StarSparkle

I guess I'm a mongrel too then! :o

My family's upper class on one side; peasant stock on the other!

And I've been brought up middle class :)

StarSparkle

What can I say? Mongrels outlive and out-thrive pedigrees! :D

Socio / economic class 2 - politically working class "wage slave".

I guess I'm a mongrel too then! :o

My family's upper class on one side; peasant stock on the other!

And I've been brought up middle class :)

StarSparkle

RIGHT thats it we're through

*gets coat*

:P

Well my ancestors were upper class until the early part of the 20th century and from then on, my part of the family at least were working class.
Im a mongrel I suppose.

And I thought you were going to be knighted in The New Years Honours List.Sir Jabberwocky of Longley Hall. :wow:

And I thought you were going to be knighted in The New Years Honours List.Sir Jabberwocky of Longley Hall. :wow:

Any female coming close to me with a sharp implement wouldnt just tap me on the shoulder with it. For some reason I have an effect on females that prompts them to run me through as soon as they clap eyes on me!

RIGHT thats it we're through

*gets coat*

:P

Aww, Mel hun - my Socialist / Anarchist beliefs and principles are as dear to my heart as ever

StarSparkle

Isn't class now defined by socioeconomic groupings.

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Apparently engineering professionals (which is the closest I can find to software engineer) are group 2, sub group 2a.

Personally if I had to choose from the traditional groups then I suppose i'm middle class, my background would be from working class though.


Wasn't it historically defined by the Registrar General Social Scale, which had 5 distinct, though admittedly outdated groupings? Is what you refer to effectively an updated version?

The best line I have ever heard about social class was in an Adrian Mole book.

"My father is deluding himself if he thinks he has joined the middle classes. He still puts HP sauce on his toast"

If you don't think class matters any more, read Watching The English by Kate Fox - it's an incisive and hilarious look at how class anxiety still dominates just about everything. I read that and then looked at the forum and I was laughing because we're all just dripping with it!

One of the interesting things which comes across is that until people get to Upper Middle Class (this has little to do with income, much more to do with level of education etc) they tend to look down on classes below them, whereas the Upper Middle Classes and Upper Classes are more able to accept and enjoy lower class culture, merchandise, etc. It's basically because they've lost all the 'anxiety' about how they appear to others. But there was a funny anecdote in the book about how she interviewed an intellectual-type guy who had a gnome in his garden. He informed her it was an 'ironic statement' and was deeply offended when she said it could betray his class origins. :hihi:

the only thing wrong with the system Cyclone brings up is that is classifies according to job. That doesn't really work as you get a lot of people who defy that system, for example rich kids living off trust funds who have never worked. Or people with extremely high levels of education who choose to work in low-paid but 'worthy' professions. It doesn't take account of aspirations and other aspects which marketing takes a great deal of account of.

For example, there are a fair few very highly paid labourers nowadays, plumbers, builders etc, but 'low end' products are still marketed at them, such as the fancier, all-inclusive package holidays. Likewise there are a lot of professionals, lecturers etc who may earn a lot less but are targeted with 'high end' products such as M&S food and gite rentals. It takes a lot of strength to resist what's marketed at you and break free of the class perceptions, and I reckon few people ever manage it as the 'signs' of your class are everywhere and a lot of them are so subtle.

For example, what's your opinion on napkins and napkin rings? Be careful now...

;)

I'm working class. Even though I have a high level of education and a good job I'll never consider myself as middle-class. My parents are from a working-class background, so am I.
So Cyclone, I'm afraid I disagree with you on this.
You can aspire to be better off than your parents or to study longer than they did, that doesn't mean you become middle-class.
My big brother is a high flyer and we make sure he keeps his feet on the ground and does not forget his working-class origins. :)

During the last twenty-five years a number of writers, including Offe and Beck have questioned whether class still has relevance in a modern, pluralist welfare state. They have argued that class is not so important in defining who we are, how we behave or where our loyalties lay.

Yet there is considerable evidence that people in Britain still often identify themselves as members of a class and that significant correlations between class inequalities in health and life chances continue to exist.

http://www.ucel.ac.uk/shield/docs/notes_class.pdf

I'm working class. Even though I have a high level of education and a good job I'll never consider myself as middle-class. My parents are from a working-class background, so am I.
So Cyclone, I'm afraid I disagree with you on this.
You can aspire to be better off than your parents or to study longer than they did, that doesn't mean you become middle-class.
My big brother is a high flyer and we make sure he keeps his feet on the ground and does not forget his working-class origins. :)

I don't think it's about what you consider yourself. I might consider myself to be cool, it doesn't make it true.

If you have a high level of education and a career in a profession then you are by definition middle class, no matter what you're own opinion of your class is.
Maybe it's possible to compensate by eating KFC all the time, drinking mild and going to the dogs, I'm not sure.

If you have a high level of education and a career in a profession then you are by definition middle class, no matter what you're own opinion of your class is.

sorry but i cant disagree more

you might think your middle class, but i strongley believe your class is in your blood, it comes from your bloodline, from your family, your parents and your grandparents.

you cant actually get rid of where you came from. your just doing better than your parents did (or hiding your real class under a middle class facade)
look at somebody like sean bean..........hes a big hollywood celeb, deep down hes still a working class bloke from sheff

and more lately sad to say it no matter how famous jade goody gets shes always gonna be a loud mouth working class lass from east london?

The idea of class as something that is inheritted and immutable is a very limiting one I think.
I don't know if Sean Bean has any children, but if he does, do you think that they will grow up with working class values, or indeed with anything at all apart from 'dads' accent linking them to working class at all?

If class is defined by ancestory then it's meaningless as ultimately we all come from the same intermingled origins.

I suppose a fair test would be to have an impartial observer watch you for a while and then tell you what class you are.

Interesting idea about hiding your 'real class'. Does that mean that a typical middle class behaviour (the theatre for example) would be just a show. If one started to actually enjoy it then presumably the facade has become the real thing?

http://www.imprint.co.uk/books/Abdication_intro.pdf
This is interesting, an article on what middle class is.
An ‘inverse snobbery’ is at play in Britain, whereby
people that would by most objective standards be considered middle
class think of themselves as working class.
Relevant maybe...

One definition apparently includes level of income, non manual nature of work and home ownership.

other definitions
The middle class refers to people neither at the top nor bottom of a social hierarchy. In today's usage, the term is often applied to people who have a degree of economic independence, but not a great deal of social influence or power in their society. For example, in the United States, a small business owner who owns their own home and cleans it themselves would generally be described as "middle class". ...

Social class broadly defined occupationally as those working in white-collar and lower managerial occupations; sometimes defined by reference to income levels or subjective identification of the participants in the study.

Non of the definitions though seem to imply that parental class is relevant nor that it's impossible to move between class.

from wikipedia
In contrast, in the United Kingdom, in recent surveys up to two-thirds of Britons identify themselves as working class. This can reasonably be attributed to the wish to avoid the pejorative connotation described above. Nonetheless the British Labour Party, which grew out of the organized labor movement and originally drew almost all of its support from the working class, reinvented itself under Tony Blair in the 1990s as "New Labour," a party competing with the Conservative Party for the votes of the middle class as well as the working class.
The size of the middle class depends on how it is defined, whether by education, wealth, environment of upbringing, genetic relationships, social network, manners or values, etc. These are all related, though far from deterministically dependent. The following factors are often ascribed in modern usage to a "middle class":

* Achievement of tertiary education.
* Holding professional qualifications, including academics, lawyers, doctors, and clergymen regardless of their leisure or wealth.
* Belief in bourgeois values, such as high rates of house or long-term lease ownership and jobs which are perceived to be "secure." In the United States and in the United Kingdom, politicians typically target the votes of the middle classes.
* Lifestyle. In the United Kingdom, social status has historically been linked less directly to wealth than in the United States, and has also been judged by pointers such as accent, manners, place of education, occupation and the class of a person's family, circle of friends and acquaintances. Often in the United States, the middle class are the most eager participants in pop culture. The second generation of new immigrants will often enthusiastically forsake their traditional folk culture as a sign of having arrived in the middle class.

Working class till the day they take me away in a big black car and don't bring me back.

class distinction is for the insecure and egotistical education is said to be an equalizer

My partner would say middle-class
but after collage i stood on my own two feet at 17 got a house and a job so i would say i working class would'nt you

Can somebody be working class if they don't work, and never have?
ah that old chestnut


working class doesnt literly mean your working, its your class
back in the good old days everybody prolly was working, down the mines, up the chimneys

ah that old chestnut


working class doesnt literly mean your working, its your class
back in the good old days everybody prolly was working, down the mines, up the chimneysI don't disagree at all - I was just interested in opinions.
There are upper class people who don't work, and there are very wealthy people who are working class.

As other posters have suggested, it's not down to family back ground either, as people can evolve and rise from their roots - just as easily as they can decline - but on the whole it is manners that maketh man, not money.

i'm a working class snob (thats SNOB not slob)

I have no idea what class I am. My father was a craftsman / labourer(carpenter) , my mum was a cleaning lady.

That would make me working class, I assume, until I started work myself. Going by the list above, I could fit anywhere from 1.2 to 4 depending upon how you define what I do. :)

I've always called myself 'Educated Working Class'. A Joe Class, rather tahn anyone else's. :)

What 'class' would the skip-rats who doss around on the street corners and in the 'bookies' all day be in?

Surely they can't be judged to be in the same class as the bloke who drives the bus or the lass who serves me at Tesco, nor the youth who serves the tasteless at McDonalds.

What 'class' would the skip-rats who doss around on the street corners and in the 'bookies' all day be in?

Surely they can't be judged to be in the same class as the bloke who drives the bus or the lass who serves me at Tesco, nor the youth who serves the tasteless at McDonalds.

'Chavclass'?

What 'class' would the skip-rats who doss around on the street corners and in the 'bookies' all day be in?

Surely they can't be judged to be in the same class as the bloke who drives the bus or the lass who serves me at Tesco, nor the youth who serves the tasteless at McDonalds.
im afraid the majority of em would still be working class
the underclass are those who slip the net...homeless, tramps etc

'Chavclass'?
The 'SHIRKING CLASS':thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

im afraid the majority of em would still be working class
the underclass are those who slip the net...homeless, tramps etc
That's an interesting one. Would the underclasss extend to those who will always exist on a combination of benefits and petty theft? The local Manor drug peddlar, the Pitsmoor mugger, the Low Edges garage thief? They're the sirt of people who are outside of the system except for their gyros, and unlikely ever to pay tax.

That's an interesting one. Would the underclasss extend to those who will always exist on a combination of benefits and petty theft? The local Manor drug peddlar, the Pitsmoor mugger, the Low Edges garage thief? They're the sirt of people who are outside of the system except for their gyros, and unlikely ever to pay tax.

well i dunno about petty theives
i suppose the underclass also goes for criminals who are actually hidden from view, on the run etc....completely dodging ALL things that society throws at em?

well i dunno about petty theives
i suppose the underclass also goes for criminals who are actually hidden from view, on the run etc....completely dodging ALL things that society throws at em?

What about Jade? surely this has got be an even different class altogether?

Human beings are social animals. One of their primary drives/instincts is to 'fit in'. This characteristic of 'fitting in', often quite repulsive and contemptible to an external observer, is the defining factor in what 'class' you are.

If it is done unconvincingly and your associates view you as 'other' than themselves, then that is the determinant of your class.

If it is done effectively then your antecedents are wholly immaterial.



Welcome back BF/NC etc etc etc....:)

I thought I was working class until I did jury service.

Ooooooh dear. :(

What about Jade? surely this has got be an even different class altogether?

I think we're talking about social class not biological class.

I'm upper class. I know this because I have a colour television AND dimmer switches.

What I have never understood is why northerners and Sheffielders in particular are obsessed with your class and where are you from? Why does it matter so much?

I know people love an identity and hate success up here but why does sounding primitive and biblical make you better and everyone else is a intrusive outsider?

Why are you posting on a 5 year old thread? Anyway everybody who has to work for their money no matter how much they have is working class. Even MOS. It's something to be proud of.

workin class.... minimum wage all the way ! :help:

Apparently everyone north of Watford is working class - according to several southern jessies I have to work with.

Did you see that TV programme about the class system where a couple of chavs said that they were middle class; they couldn't be working class because they didn't work. Lol. Should there be a benefit class?

[QUOTE=chimay;8623608]Apparently everyone north of Watford is working class - according to several southern jessies I have to work with.

Did you see that TV programme about the class system where a couple of chavs said that they were middle class; they couldn't be working class because they didn't work. Lol. Should there be a benefit class?[QUOTE]

There is it's the underclass, though lots of people don't like it as it's used to mock those that are out of work. Most people who are out of work are so temporarily.

What I have never understood is why northerners and Sheffielders in particular are obsessed with your class and where are you from? Why does it matter so much?

I know people love an identity and hate success up here but why does sounding primitive and biblical make you better and everyone else is a intrusive outsider?

So says the person with Jesus as an avatar!!!

Are you regarded as an 'intrusive outsider' by people from Sheffield Green Web? Perhaps that doesn't have anything to do with your previous place of residence & more to do with something else. And people don't hate success here - nonsense.There are lots of successful people in Sheffield

Why are you posting on a 5 year old thread? Anyway everybody who has to work for their money no matter how much they have is working class. Even MOS. It's something to be proud of.

That isn't what 'working class' means.

You can't define your own class.

What does it matter what class you think you are?

It matters what class other people think you are, that's what's important.

Nobody is any class other than the class you consider them to be.

That isn't what 'working class' means.

Yes it is:hihi::hihi::hihi:

No, it's not.

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed



Working class is equivalent to groups 5 and below approximately.

By your definition middle class wouldn't exist, which makes no sense.

Working class is equivalent to groups 5 and below approximately.

By your definition middle class wouldn't exist, which makes no sense.But you've already defined yourself as middle-class back in the day when this thread was young and sprightly ...

Forumosaurus has it right. It's really down to what class other people take you to be, rather than the class you'd like them to think you are :D

"We are a working class grandmother"

- A phrase that will probably never be heard

class no i'm just me...:D

I believe I am working class. Average education, truck driver and modest house. I dont give out knowledge on here as if I know what im talking about, as that would be wrong and, well just not me. But are the people who do copy and paste on here, as if this knowledge has come from their own heads THINK they are middle class, when in all reality they are just plain old working class, but wished they wernt? Oh yes, im working class alright, and glad I am too, I am that.

In my opinion, there are only two classes of people.

1. Ordinary, normal people.:)
2. Wikipedia people.:mad:

I personally do not care what class people are so long as they are nice.

But you've already defined yourself as middle-class back in the day when this thread was young and sprightly ...

Forumosaurus has it right. It's really down to what class other people take you to be, rather than the class you'd like them to think you are :D

What I consider myself doesn't alter my point here though. A definition of working class that means there is no middle class is pointless and isn't what the term means.

I believe I am working class. Average education, truck driver and modest house. I dont give out knowledge on here as if I know what im talking about, as that would be wrong and, well just not me. But are the people who do copy and paste on here, as if this knowledge has come from their own heads THINK they are middle class, when in all reality they are just plain old working class, but wished they wernt? Oh yes, im working class alright, and glad I am too, I am that.

In my opinion, there are only two classes of people.

1. Ordinary, normal people.:)
2. Wikipedia people.:mad:

And of course nobody actually just 'knows' something in the first place?

I don't believe in classes or that I am in one, I believe we are all equals.
What is class anyway now a days??
And how does anyone grade them selves as higher class , lower or middle.
What criteria do you have to meet to be middle or higher??

Nothing can define what class you are, Only people around you can define your class.
Which people normally do when they see someone dressed scruffy they assume lower class.
How do you know that they ain't a higher or middle class person, coming home after a hard days work???

It matters what class other people think you are, that's what's important.Why?

I mean, I understand your point, if in the strict context of class definition.

But otherwise, why would the 'class' which other people think I am or belong to, have any importance whatsoever?

Personally, I don't class people. I like and get along with reasonably articulate, intelligent and likeable people (not necessarily like-minded at all), regardless of their background, occupation, wealth, circumstances, etc. I count surgeons, trades people and (currently-) benefit recipients amongst friends, and like to think it makes my life somewhat richer. To the surgeons, I'm probably bordering on working class. To the benefit recipients, I'm probably well into middle class...where is the sense in that, so what does it matter?

I don't believe in classes or that I am in one, I believe we are all equals.
I don't think the social class is supposed to define a greater or lesser value, maybe it did in the past but not now.
What is class anyway now a days??
It can be measured in quite a few ways, most of them have already been discussed
And how does anyone grade them selves as higher class , lower or middle.
Based on the ways of measuring it.
What criteria do you have to meet to be middle or higher??
Depends on what you choose to measure it, but commonly it might include the type of work you do (or don't do if your upper class), your level of education, your pass times and so on.

Nothing can define what class you are
Yes it can, your behaviour defines it., Only people around you can define your class.
So your class changes as you mingle with different people? Or your class is defined by the class of your peers (which is circular surely).
Which people normally do when they see someone dressed scruffy they assume lower class.
How do you know that they ain't a higher or middle class person, coming home after a hard days work???
By higher I assume you mean upper? Part of the definition for upper class would commonly include not having a manual job, and even if they've got scruffy playing polo or going on a hunt they won't look the same as a working class (I assume this is what you mean by lower) person coming home from a hard days work.

I reckon its a mixture of your parents class, your education, your aspirations, your job and pobably many other things.

Working class I would say your parents were working class and you have a menial job, not much money, probably left education at 16.

Middle class might be working class, upper or middle class parents, educated over 16 with a good job aspiring to management or similar. Enough money.

Upper class upper or middle class parents, educated to degree or above in a good professional job, or worked up to a very high managment level CEO or something with plenty of money. Or just born very rich!

I.e. almost impossible to define.

I am definitely middle class as are most people I know.

I think upper class (used?) to refer to the aristocracy. Simply being the CEO of a company wouldn't qualify, although it would probably make you more well off than many upper class members.

I think upper class (used?) to refer to the aristocracy. Simply being the CEO of a company wouldn't qualify, although it would probably make you more well off than many upper class members.

I just can't accept that someone getting say a £100000 bonus could be middle class! I would say the rules have definitely changed!

I wonder if that would make bob crow upper class though?

And John Prescot? He definitely isn't working class-although I think that is what he pretends to be. Hes almost upper class with a working class accent!

Simply having lots of money isn't enough to change ones class, look at the chav millionaire for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_%28lottery_winner%29
I think even the working class would reject him.

I just can't accept that someone getting say a £100000 bonus could be middle class! I would say the rules have definitely changed!

I wonder if that would make bob crow upper class though?

And John Prescot? He definitely isn't working class-although I think that is what he pretends to be. Hes almost upper class with a working class accent!That's an interesting thought ... I don't agree though. Money can buy many things, but one thing it can't buy is class.

In England it would be almost impossible to make the leap between being John Prescott and being considered upper class. :P


ps who's bob crow? :huh:

I'm not sure whether I'm working class or middle class. My background (dad was a director of a multinational technology company before he retired, above degree level education, professional exams etc) would suggest that I'm middle class, but my income and where I live suggests working class.

It is unimportant to me whether I'm working class or middle class- in fact I had not considered which I may be until this thread.

No matter what class you perceive yourself to belong to,most of us go back to peasant roots.
Thats nothing to be ashamed of either.Its been the making of us.

That's an interesting thought ... I don't agree though. Money can buy many things, but one thing it can't buy is class.

In England it would be almost impossible to make the leap between being John Prescott and being considered upper class. :P


ps who's bob crow? :huh:

No I'm saying its one of many factors however you can't be working class if you have that much money (to me).

John Prescot-even when hes wearing the lords outfit?

Ps one of those super rich pretends to be "working class" folk!

So Michael Caroll was what?

So Michael Caroll was what?

an example of class being imposible to define! he doesn't sound like hes working class though!

thats the one thing I like about travel, class and status tends to take a backseat.

people don't have to live up to their image as much when they're overseas.

an example of class being imposible to define! he doesn't sound like hes working class though!

He is again now, he's a bin man.

Is it a requirement that you need to work to live in order to be working class? I'm not sure because most of the middle class need to work to live as well, I think it's more about what work you do.

I don't think becoming rich changed Carolls class though, he was still criminal underclass/working class, he just happened to be rich for a little while.

Equally I don't think that someone who gets a job in the city and makes a large amount of money stops being middle class, they might move to upper middle class I suppose.

No I'm saying its one of many factors however you can't be working class if you have that much money (to me)Purely as a tool for discussion ... someone lives in a council flat on a poor estate. Their parents and their parents before them also lived in the same sort of place. S/he left school at 16 with 3 gcses at grade d and now works ont bins or at a sandwich shop, say. They've never been anywhere other than Benidorm or Florida, think that a good night is getting ratted at the local WMC, and then they win £40m on the lottery.

Are they still working class?

He is again now, he's a bin man.

Is it a requirement that you need to work to live in order to be working class? I'm not sure because most of the middle class need to work to live as well, I think it's more about what work you do.

I don't think becoming rich changed Carolls class though, he was still criminal underclass/working class, he just happened to be rich for a little while.

Equally I don't think that someone who gets a job in the city and makes a large amount of money stops being middle class, they might move to upper middle class I suppose.

There is no one requirement, thats what I said and thats why its so pointless trying to define it. I only read the first line of carolls wikipedia entry (that he won millions). I don't believe you can be working class with millions in the bank, if you had millions and lost it then thats different.

He won millions, he continued to be a social nuisance and self acknowledged chav. He spent it all (wasted it mostly) and is now a bin man who has tried to commit suicide twice in the last few years.
The combination of factors, behaviour, attitude, level of education, aspirations and so on outweighed (IMO) his wealth, he remained part of the criminal underclass if I'm being harsh or working class if I'm being generous.