Is it right to allow a severly disabled baby to be born?

What right if any does society have to allow a child to be born that will not have any quality of life and require constant care?

Children that grow without dignity or Knowledge about the world around them.......To not be able to live a productive fullfilling life.

This may seem to be a sore subject but I would just like to hear some of your views.

Originally posted by DerekH
Is it right to allow a severly disabled baby to be born?

What right if any does society have to allow a child to be born that will not have any quality of life and require constant care?

Children that grow without dignity or Knowledge about the world around them.......To not be able to live a productive fullfilling life.

This may seem to be a sore subject but I would just like to hear some of your views.


Soul is a soul and the body you are in belongs to the earth.
I'm fortunate enough to be able bodied, and not disabled and I feel its down to us to look after those who are in whatever way we can.

What is productive and fulfilling? I suppose it depends on if you have certain beliefs or not. I for one beleive these people who are born with disabilities are destined for better things in the afterlife :)

How would you decide on the level of disability before allowing a child to be born? I know lots of people with varying degrees of disabilities and they all seem very happy to have been allowed to be born.

If we decided that all children who could be born with "disabilities" should be killed before birth, I think the world would be a very very sad and Nazi-esque place. And what if you only discover just after birth that the baby has severe disabilities... do you still think it is wrong to let it go on living as in your opinion it is going to have such a terrible life?

You ask what right do we have to let them live, but I would ask what right do we have to kill them?

Originally posted by DerekH
Is it right to allow a severly disabled baby to be born?

What right if any does society have to allow a child to be born that will not have any quality of life and require constant care?

Children that grow without dignity or Knowledge about the world around them.......To not be able to live a productive fullfilling life.

This may seem to be a sore subject but I would just like to hear some of your views.

I suggest you pose that question to Profesor Stephen Hawkin, I feel sure he would have much to say.

A baby that will grow up with pain and suffering throughout it's life, without being able to do anything about it.
Is it love that allows this to happen or selfishness where people think they are doing good?

There are disabilities and there are those in a vegetive state....I am asking about those that are disabled beyond help!

The ones that have no conception as to what is happening around them and are incapacitated.....in other words Brain Damaged beyond repair

Would you allow your dog or other animals to suffer?

If not why would you allow a human to?

Originally posted by DerekH
A baby that will grow up with pain and suffering throughout it's life, without being able to do anything about it.
Is it love that allows this to happen or selfishness where people think they are doing good?

There are disabilities and there are those in a vegetive state....I am asking about those that are disabled beyond help!

The ones that have no conception as to what is happening around them and are incapacitated.....in other words Brain Damaged beyond repair

So do you really believe that if a baby is born in that condition it should be killed?

Originally posted by Patchy
So do you really believe that if a baby is born in that condition it should be killed?

I hav'nt made any statements with or against but my own opinion is that it is cruel to be kind.......you could say that the same applies to when you get old and frail and have to put up with the indignity of having your bum wiped for you and being hand fed.........would you like that kind of life?

Originally posted by DerekH
I hav'nt made any statements with or against but my own opinion is that it is cruel to be kind.......you could say that the same applies to when you get old and frail and have to put up with the indignity of having your bum wiped for you and being hand fed.........would you like that kind of life?

You asked the question so I think it would be interesting to know what your view is. If a child is born severely brain damaged and in the condition you mentioned in your previous post do you think it should be killed? Yes or No?

Originally posted by Patchy
You asked the question so I think it would be interesting to know what your view is. If a child is born severely brain damaged and in the condition you mentioned in your previous post do you think it should be killed? Yes or No?

YES!.........I hope that answers your question although I wouldn't use the term kill...

Originally posted by DerekH
YES!.........I hope that answers your question although I wouldn't use the term kill...

So what term would you use to refer to getting rid of a child born with severe brain damage if not "kill"?

Originally posted by Patchy
So what term would you use to refer to getting rid of a child born with severe brain damage if not "kill"?

euthenasia comes to mind........let me put it this way....if you knew that before giving birth to a child that the medical out look was detrimental to the well being of that child being born....would you go ahead knowing full well that the child would not have a life of its own?
Another thing is...if you would allow the birth to go ahead ...later on in years when you have passed on....who looks after this person?
In a lot of cases these children end up in homes and are then forgotten by their parents.

Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to Euthenasia. I think a lot of people would be offended at the idea of killing children born with disabilities... it sounds too much like an idea from Hitler's Nazi Party and modern-day British equivalents such as the National Front etc. If I was you I would be careful in case people thought you were one of those NF or BNP extremists!

My own views on Euthenasia are a bit mixed. If someone is severely ill then I don't think it is right to kill the person. However, if someone is severely ill and is put on a life support machine to prolong their life then I think in some cases when doctors don't think they will recover there may be a case for turning off the life support machine, or stopping their medication.

In other words, don't actively kill but in some cases don't actively prolong the life unnaturally. That's just my personal view. It would be interesting to hear what other people think.

Originally posted by Banksia
I suggest you pose that question to Profesor Stephen Hawkin, I feel sure he would have much to say.

And he'd probably say it in that strange mechanical way of talking he has :)

Seriously, though. He wasn't born that way. He didn't become ill until he was at university. So the question doesn't really apply.

Is this something that really happens?
I would have thought that if a child was born in such a disabled condition as you suggest, then either it would not live for very long any way, or it would be on a life support machine, and the decision to turn those things off are not seen as killing a person.

Are you talking about very premature babies?
There has been a lot about this in the media recently.

It is difficuly to judge unless you have experienced the situation personally. Marriages usually break under the strain of caring for a handicapped child mostly leaving it with the mother, who is biologically programed to love and care for it.

Her quality of life, unless she is financially secure, is non existant and her one fear is who will care for her child when she is dead.

It was said in the past that the Dr or mdwife played God and took on this responsibilty, and let the baby die.

My first child was born in the time when pregnant women were given the drug Thalidomide for morning sickness. I was lucky, but my life would have been vastly different had I been prescribed it.

Perhaps we should wait for someone to reply who has a
handicapped child.

Hazel












hazel

Originally posted by elf
Is this something that really happens?
I would have thought that if a child was born in such a disabled condition as you suggest, then either it would not live for very long any way, or it would be on a life support machine, and the decision to turn those things off are not seen as killing a person.

Are you talking about very premature babies?
There has been a lot about this in the media recently.

What made me start this thread was the fact that I have a nephew who was born with very bad Cerebal Palsy......His life to date and he is now 29, Has consisted of sitting in a chair looking into space.

He has no motability or communication and requires constant supervision and help with all bodily functions.
In effect he is no more than a vegetable with no life and no prospects of ever living one as we know it.

I was born disabled( Legs Problems). I have been in & out of hospital for most of my life.I went to Whiteley Woods special School.Where there were different levels of disabilty.But one thing about being disabled is you just have to try that little bit harder,to get across that you are not stupid & you can lead a normal life as anyone else,to me my life is normal & it has not stopped me doing what I want to do,ok I cannot run or climb mountains,but I have other skills. I have hobbies which I am very good at & I love my computor & I get about on an electric scooter.My cousin was born spina bifida,he was a great kid,he was confined to a bed at home & passed away at the age of 11 but he enjoyed his short life & his parents were happy that they had at least 11 years together.Being disabled is not that bad you have advantages.I do not wear out shoes.Just tyres. LOL

I do not know the answer to this interesting question. What I do know is there are plenty of ways parents can make eugenic choices. Eugenics is usually associated in the general public's mind with the Nazis. Actually, eugenics [selective breeding] takes place in all hospitals today in the form of various reproductive technologies such as IVF, pre-natal screening [for Downs syndrome etc]. This is not the state eugenics of the Nazis and Chinese, but rather a form of laissez fairre eugenics which exists because there is a market for it. In a sense, as the philosopher Philip Kitcher has said, these days everyone can be their own eugenicist! Whether it is right to terminate such babies is a question I leave to bio-ethics experts, religious types etc. The point is we have choices. The technology is available to everyone now.

I was a handicapped child, now a handicapped adult.

I am deaf and suffer from limited mobility.

However aside from being unemployed because the Government are a bunch of tosspieces who don't do anything about the fact that we disabled people are regularly discriminated against when it comes to applying for jobs (rant over), I have a good quality of life.

Originally posted by Patchy
You asked the question so I think it would be interesting to know what your view is. If a child is born severely brain damaged and in the condition you mentioned in your previous post do you think it should be killed? Yes or No?

I don't think you should say killed. It is a question of if medical intervention is needed to keep the child alive. In times gone by a child with severe difficulties would not have survived, but they were not judge to have been killed.

Ruthless maybe but i would not want a child of mine that is not meant to survive to be kept alive because it is a live birth with severe problems and not stillborn.

Originally posted by DerekH
A baby that will grow up with pain and suffering throughout it's life, without being able to do anything about it.
Is it love that allows this to happen or selfishness where people think they are doing good?

There are disabilities and there are those in a vegetive state....I am asking about those that are disabled beyond help!

The ones that have no conception as to what is happening around them and are incapacitated.....in other words Brain Damaged beyond repair

Would you allow your dog or other animals to suffer?

If not why would you allow a human to?

I agree with you, if it was an animal it would be seem as cruelty to keep it alive and suffering.

Well lets hope u dont have a chid who is born disabled
u dont know what it is like to care for such a child i do 24/7 my daughter was always laughing and smiling dispite her problems she was a very happy child who had everything a parent could give with lots of love care and closness we were 1
i would do it all again 2morrow
children need looking after not killing uncondisional love mate

Originally posted by DerekH
What made me start this thread was the fact that I have a nephew who was born with very bad Cerebal Palsy......His life to date and he is now 29, Has consisted of sitting in a chair looking into space.

He has no motability or communication and requires constant supervision and help with all bodily functions.
In effect he is no more than a vegetable with no life and no prospects of ever living one as we know it. If you have a family member who has cerebral palsy you should know that,the body is severly disabled but the mind is fine ,I went to school as a youngster with kids who had cerebral palsey some live good lives.Some need constant nursing.Just remember he knows what is going on around him but cannot express it because of his disability.As you probably already know.

Originally posted by tosh13
If you have a family member who has cerebral palsy you should know that,the body is severly disabled but the mind is fine ,I went to school as a youngster with kids who had cerebral palsey some live good lives.Some need constant nursing.Just remember he knows what is going on around him but cannot express it because of his disability.As you probably already know.

That is the point tosh... Can you imagine knowing everything that is going off around you but not being able to do anything at all.

I have Thought about how I would feel in a situation like that and I personally would rather not want to go through it.


[i]I was a handicapped child, now a handicapped adult.

I am deaf and suffer from limited mobility.

However aside from being unemployed because the Government are a bunch of tosspieces who don't do anything about the fact that we disabled people are regularly discriminated against when it comes to applying for jobs (rant over), I have a good quality of life.[/B]


Rich, Can you imagine how your quality of life would be if there was no benefit system.
As you probably know, I lived in S.Africa for 25 years where there is no such system in place.

It is the parents that are the ones who support and care for their offspring with disabilities.
The quality of life there is dependent on how much money the parents are able to earn.
And i do agree with you that there is discrimination in the jobs market against the disabled but with the right education there should be no problems/.

Originally posted by DerekH
That is the point tosh... Can you imagine knowing everything that is going off around you but not being able to do anything at all.

I have Thought about how I would feel in a situation like that and I personally would rather not want to go through it.





Rich, Can you imagine how your quality of life would be if there was no benefit system.
As you probably know, I lived in S.Africa for 25 years where there is no such system in place.

It is the parents that are the ones who support and care for their offspring with disabilities.
The quality of life there is dependent on how much money the parents are able to earn.
And i do agree with you that there is discrimination in the jobs market against the disabled but with the right education there should be no problems/.

Right education still doesn't make a difference IMO, I've been to nearly every computer course in Sheff, and have Umpteen other certificates such as NVQs in Retail, Basic food hygiene, an A in GCSE English Lit.... But does the fact that I have all these qualifications hold any water when it comes to getting a job?! Does it ****! How humiliating was it when I was forced to go for a shelf stacking job in the Hillsborough co-op when I was on the dole, only to be told they didn't want me cos I was over-qualified for such a menial job.... WTF?!

Well if I could get a job worthy of my talents I WOULD, but I can't cos they all but tell me to go away and don't be silly when I asked any other company to give me an INTERVIEW at least!

And I refuse to touch the job centres with a 10 foot bargepole after my experience of the Job Seeker's Allowance back in 1996-97, because they were fuffing morons.

Originally posted by Rich
Right education still doesn't make a difference IMO, I've been to nearly every computer course in Sheff, and have Umpteen other certificates such as NVQs in Retail, Basic food hygiene, an A in GCSE English Lit.... But does the fact that I have all these qualifications hold any water when it comes to getting a job?! Does it ****! How humiliating was it when I was forced to go for a shelf stacking job in the Hillsborough co-op when I was on the dole, only to be told they didn't want me cos I was over-qualified for such a menial job.... WTF?!

Well if I could get a job worthy of my talents I WOULD, but I can't cos they all but tell me to go away and don't be silly when I asked any other company to give me an INTERVIEW at least!

And I refuse to touch the job centres with a 10 foot bargepole after my experience of the Job Seeker's Allowance back in 1996-97, because they were fuffing morons.

Rich, if you don't mind I know a lot of people in the computer sect and will ask around for you should you wish.

Originally posted by DerekH
Rich, if you don't mind I know a lot of people in the computer sect and will ask around for you should you wish.

Thanks for thinking of me Derek but at the moment, no thanks.

-derek, I strongly suspect that this thread came of the "words" that you and I had the other night on the chat room.

I will reiterate what I said that night

I would defend to the death my nephew's right to life. My nephew was born with hs skull already sealed over (cranoisynostosis) and as a result,now has severe brain damage.

I personally do not becieve it is right to "euthanase" persons with disabilities, (to couch it in euphemisms, to "nice-up" the act.) that is my personal view, and despite what i will say in mitigation, later, i could not force a woman to carry a baby to term if she chose to terminate because of disability. It's her body, her choice.

Personally for me, having acquired a disability, i have no problem with my quality of life I am happy and fulfilled in my work and in being a grandmother to my grandchildren. just because I am in a wheelchair does not mean that i am a lesser person, nor tha I should be disbarred from doing what I wnat.

My nephew is 12 next week. because of teh brain damage he is only functioninga t the level of a 20 months/ 2 yr old. but that is not the issue, he has a happy pain free life, no suffering... christ! He has been photogtaphed in the Daily Mirror, with June Brown (Dot from 'enders) when he went on a school visit to a donkey sanctuary. this child has ridden in a helicopter, he is a happy little lad, and we love him to bits. We adore him.

but who is to decide what level of "life" is acceptable? is my life "unliveable/untenable/ worthless" because I depend on a wheelchair to get around? Is my nephew's life "unliveable/untenable/worthless " because he has a learning disability? Is (as someone mentioned above) steven Hawking's life "unliveable? untenable /worthless" becauase he has SLA (aimilar to motor neurone disease) and relies on a wheelchair/ care/ speech synthesisers?
No! of course not. whoever you are, and whatever your ;evel of ability/ disability. you have as much right to self determination(within your capabilities and capacity/ understanding) and to prticipate fully in society as the next person.

The ideas of euthanasia and eugenics scare me, as I feel that it is only a matter of time before granny gets bumped off as an "inconvenience", or that the government start sticking their oar in and bump "persons with disabilities"(PWD) off as a burden to the state.

My former next door neighbour had a nightmare time, all through her third pregnancy. The doctors at the maternity hospital weregoing bananas at her, telling her to terminate the pregnancy, because the baby she was carrying "had spina bifida and hydrocephalus".

She refused to even countenance a termination, and determined to go through with the pregnancy to the bitter end. She would come home from the maternity checkupsincredibly distressed as she had been berated, again and again by the medical staff for her insistence.

However, the day dawned of her baby's birth, and.....

when her daughter was born, there was not a thing wrong with the baby. No neual tube defect/ spina bifida/ Hydrocephalus. NOTHING!

so had she folowed the doctors advice, she would have terminated a perfectly healthy baby.

It seems that the medics "talk up" he situation, and, when faced with a prognosis of a pregnancy where the child may have a disability, they tell it much blacker than it really is. whether it's Downs Syndrome, SB, or whatever.

I have a genetic condition, (unrelated to my disabilities,BTW) and I am a menber of another forum where the members are affected by this condition, bit that they themselves have it, or they have a child/ sister/ spouse with the condition.
You would not believe the numbers of women we have to reassure, when their obstetrician has done an amnoicentesis or other test, and the doctor has said to them " your child has *this*condition. it will be deformed, it will be retarded! terminate! now!"

The mothers to be are distressed, having been told this by the syupposedly learned doctors. we have to reassure them that they are not carrying a "Monster" and that their baby will be a perfectly ordinary little girl, and that b) the doctors are using incredibly out-of-date information.and that we have all sorts of members, Nurses, Speech Therapists and Lawyers amongst these supposed "retards" that the medics have dismisse out of hand!

and as I say, at what point do we draw the line? at which point do we decide "this is unacceptable"?

One man's unbearable, is another man's normal, daily life.
"terminate disabled babies, before birth!"

Ok. But........ what happens, as in the case of my first husband where the medics F****d up good style? his mother should have been given a caesarian, as a matter of course, having had the exact same difficulties in her previous labours, of the baby becoming stuck, due to dysproportion- the baby was too big for her pelvis. she had to have caesars before, and should have had one for delivering him
bty the time the docs ralised teir mistake it was too late, and my ex husband had become stuck in the birth canal and was suffering oxygen deprivation. He ended up with Cerebral Palsy. should they have terminated him, as he was emerging from his mother's womb? he was disabled before birth! but, wait, My ex husband was of superior intelligence... it was just that the connections between his brain and his body were damaged.... he is a bright and articulate bloke, and very creative, both in Art and in writing, (stories and poetry)

so, how is his life worthless?

or what about my adopted brother?

his mother had a normal pregnancy and birth, he was a perfect, normal baby, hitting all the milestones, (some quite in advance of the timescales expected)

Then, he had an adverse reaction to the whooping cough vaccine that he was given, and suffered convulsions and was left with hemiplegic cerebral palsy.

Is his life less worthwhile?

I think not.

Myself... I acqired a disability. I was an ordinary, active person, until 11 yrs ago, when I was poisoned by Carbon Monoxide, which left me with neurlogical damage, and left me reliant on a wheelchair.

Am I less valid, because of that?

I was a director of a company... I was a trustee for another... I have held committee posts within a number of organisations.

I now work for a disability charity, in quite a high ranking position, and am, eventually, even looking for promotion within this charity. I deal with helping other folk with disabilities regain their independednce, and freedom, our charity "gives folks their legs back" as one gentleman used to say, who used us, until he passed away last year.
so am I less valid?

I dont blooming well think so.

Mr PT, was a martial artist until a few years ago, he developed a blood clotting condition which causes him to have breathing difficulties as he gets pulmonary emboli, (clots in his lungs which "take his breath" so to speak) and he had a serious fall, in which he broke his back, so nowadays his mobility is limited.

does that invalidate him? well I think you know the answer to that question.

Or, what about the foetus that is growing inside it's mother, that is currently healthy and able. and that fate has in store for him/ her an accident that leaves them, say, paraplegic, or that they are predisposed to an illness such as MS or something similar, that will disable them, in later life. what do we do there? do we terminate them, because these conditions *might* (or will) develop? are they, again, less valid because of that?

or again.. someone is predisposed to having a heart-attack, or high cholesterol.... do we terminate them, too? where do we stop? when do we decide that we have segued from the sublime to the ridiculous?

"where there's life, there's hope" is my adage. No-one no -one at all needs to live a "hopeless" or "worthless" life, no matter how severe their disability.

You say that yo ur own nephew, derek, had 29 years of "just sitting in a chair".

That sounds dreadful. but, from what you said, I can only infer this much:-

Why was he just sitting in a chair?

Why was he not permitted to experience things? Surely, he should have been stimulated and treated like a human being, instead of some "lump" ?

How do you know that there was no "spark" there? Are you sure that the lad was not "locked in", with a sharp mind inside his body?

I am speaking as a former nurse, who loved her specialty , in learning disabilities. I had a t least a couple of patients like that, who had been dismissed as being "ineducable" or as being "mentally deficient" when in fact, all that was wrong was that they had cerebral palsy, and were physically limited by their bodies.

All they needed was someone to realise this, and to stimulate them. (I am thinking of two of my former patients, in particular)

They came on in leaps and bounds. the difference, even Physically in them was amazing, once tes stimuli were "applied".

As I say, we can't play god. everyone should have the right to live their lives, and be a part of society. whatever their level of disability

ys it's a matter of personal choice. We can't force carrying a pregnancy on someone who could not handle having a disabled child, just as we cannot force termination on someone who does not want it.

the sooner people realise that it is not the end of the world, to have a disability, (acquired or congenital) the better. My life did not end 11 yrs ago, when I became disabled. It was merely the start of a new chapter in my life.

(and society needs to adapt, too:- both the physical environment, and attitudes towards PWD's, treating them with dignity and acceptance, not in an exclusive and beittling manner)

Sorry this has been a long one, folks!

breathe easy, now... here endeth the leson for today!

;)

PT

Originally posted by Plain Talker
-
You say that yo ur own nephew, derek, had 29 years of "just sitting in a chair".

That sounds dreadful. but, from what you said, I can only infer this much:-

Why was he just sitting in a chair?

Why was he not permitted to experience things? Surely, he should have been stimulated and treated like a human being, instead of some "lump" ?

How do you know that there was no "spark" there? Are you sure that the lad was not "locked in", with a sharp mind inside his body?

PT

Lets put some things in perspective here!......Firstly...my nephew lives in a country where there are no benefits and the medical has to be paid for by the patients.
The special schooling costs are also borne by the parents.

Not to put a too fine point here but if the medical here was to go private which it will be one day, Would anyone be able to afford the treatment nessesary to sustain someone indefinatley that cannot be cured?

As the UK has a benefits system you are lucky to have all the monetary help and medical to be able to keep someone living in a vegetive state however... My comments about the issue here is generalised and covers not only the UK but the rest of the world as well.

Lets say the welfare system were to cease to exist here, would you be able to support and care for someone for the rest of their lives?

The treatment that you could offer would be linked to how much you can afford.


Just to give you an example! In S.A. To give birth would cost you in excess of 2000 pounds.
A bed for a week without treatment would put you back around 2000 pounds. Extras including cotton swabs are charged individually.

Does this give anyone the right to play god? NO! but as quality of life is linked to money (root of all evil) To have a child that is going to require constant medical care for the rest of their lives, would bankrupt the families involved.

Your reply I am sure will be yes but we have a medical and benefits system here so what are you talking about!

In effect......even here someone is picking up the tab which does effect the lives of others.
Increases in taxation to pay for this system affect everyone.

Your comment about knocking off grannies......That is already being done!!! When a person gets to a certain age and is hospitalised.....treatment is sometimes stopped and the person normally ends up not coming out .

Already the medical proffession here is not supplying certain drugs because of costs and depending on the area where you are some treatments are not available.

In concluding here, Everything revolves around money and affordability. If a family can afford to pay for all the treatments and upbringing then they can do so.

Originally posted by mojoworking
And he'd probably say it in that strange mechanical way of talking he has :)

Seriously, though. He wasn't born that way. He didn't become ill until he was at university. So the question doesn't really apply.

I stand corrected on that point !
However I must now say that one of the nicest people I have ever met was a guy called Rick who was born with Cerebal Palsy. He can only communicate using a special board or the computer, cannot feed or do anything for himself but is an absolute inspiration to be around. Although he admits he would have loved to marry and have a family he accepts his lot with grace and his love shines through to all around him. He is a great lesson in gratitude for all who meet him.