Hiya,

I was at a bootfair yesterday, and came accross a stall with Vietnamese selling priate DVDs, I'm sure they were R1.

They really were trying to convince folk to buy these - saying "oh no, it's not done by camera, it crysatal clear".

Then once people bought these, the seller says: Oh, yes but there is only 85% is on there!!

many arnt cams but screaners which may say "this is propity of..." at the bottom of the screen and are not that bad quality then theres dvd-rips which are just the real dvd

Originally posted by f_g
many arnt cams but screaners which may say "this is propity of..." at the bottom of the screen and are not that bad quality then theres dvd-rips which are just the real dvd
In that case it's alright then :loopy:

Whilst I was on holiday in another country there was this lad who would carry a large suitcase around full of pirated CD's/DVDs which were very cheap.

Now, if those are for the purpose of funding terrorism I shall eat my hat. :D

Pirate DVDs just arent worth it at all. I dunno why people bother with em, they are never as good as the originals and rarely have all if any special features on em!

Originally posted by Lickszz
Whilst I was on holiday in another country there was this lad who would carry a large suitcase around full of pirated CD's/DVDs which were very cheap.

Now, if those are for the purpose of funding terrorism I shall eat my hat. :D

depends on how he got 'em.

Well I don't think he got them from some paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, do you? :o

Gotta agree with Lickszz.

Maybe one or two sets of people sold them to fund terrorists... but I wouldn't say the majority of those are for that purpose.

More like personal financial gain!

Originally posted by RPG
Pirate DVDs just arent worth it at all. I dunno why people bother with em, they are never as good as the originals and rarely have all if any special features on em!

I don't think they ever have special features on them
:thumbsup:

Originally posted by amhudson119
I don't think they ever have special features on them
:thumbsup:

some do depending what they are, as if the disc is already released in the US miles before the UK (eg. finding nemo) the discs are usually clones of the retail discs

but if someone is buying a copied disk they have no intention most of the time of ever buying a real dvd at full price

until dvds and cds become a more reasonable price (i dont think £17-20 for a film with a few extras is worth it) there will always be a market for pirated products.

Saying that you can get some good bargains in the various shops including the secondhand shops in town for a few quid. However it is always the good films which seem to take the p*** on price.

I have seen about 3/4 copies,variying in quality from the video-cam in the cinema to profesionally done (with correct casing,inserts.When you see the high quality ones you wouldnt understand why anyone would pay the price for a genuine copy.
There was something on tv recently about how big the trade is getting particularly in Russia and the surrounding areas.
Factories are mass producing top quality copies in proper casing , and doing roaring trade.
The only way in my opinion to stop the trade is for the makers of the genuine products to cut their prices to the extent in which it is not profitable for people to sell pirated disks.

Anyway theres my stoned ramble for the evening.

p.s sorry i deviated a bit

Originally posted by Lickszz
Well I don't think he got them from some paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, do you? :o

No, maybe from a well organised duplicating outfit running in a small factory unit on an anonymous industrial estate in penge.

Question is - where does the money end up?

Not with the 'dealer', or the guy who sells him four or five boxes but with the organised criminals who (not in all cases by any means) run the operation as a nice tax free earner.

Terrorists need money, and they no longer hold hostages since it is just not as cost efficient as flooding the market with illegal rip-offs. That link has been well proven.

Question is - is that rip-off DVD in your hand from some kid duplicating them on his dad's PC or a serious piracy outfit with profits going on small arms or explosives?

OK, cool - now....how can you tell?

i think most of the time is the odd group of friends trying to make some extra cash

In Northern Ireland the market for 'Manufacture & distribution' of the bulk of this lucrative market was taken over by the IRA. This did NOT however apply to the manufacture and sale of these products within the mainland UK. I imagine that any such 'activity' if very profitable would be considered as a means of funding if feasible by 'Local' terrorist organisations that would see such as easy money.

I do NOT however see any link between major terrorist groups that operate international terrorism with the sale of DVD products. This worked for the IRA in NI mainly because they had the support of a large section of the local community and no 'Independent manufacturer' would oppose them! The wherewithal to 'Clone' and pirate DVD's is far simpler and with the price of the end article at only a few pounds not of great interest one might think to any major terrorists!

Originally posted by f_g
i think most of the time is the odd group of friends trying to make some extra cash

very wrong
most are produced by highly organised professionals who make thousands if not millions.
How many of your mates have made that much?
(dontmean to sound rude)

I would just like to know everyones views on copied/Downloaded films.

Do you think its destroying the film industry?

Is it promoting organised crime like it likes to say on them adverts at the start of films?

List your views here

My 2 penneth...

The industry loses money from each pirated DVD sold or downloaded, but it's their own fuffing fault here in the UK for charging us the earth.

I mean, it's a known fact that we Brits pay well over the odds for almost everything.

depends on whether you mean downloaded on kazaa (no money = no organised crime benfiting) or a dvd from a car boot, in which case it's possible, the money goes somewhere afterall.

I'm all for it - I give my money to the IRA - seems they fund 'this' industry or did in days gone by - perhaps its the Arabs now (they are the vogue enemy of choice these days).

I'm sure my money went to ****** who lives down my road, never had him down as anti-anything.

I think the funding the drug barons thing is laughable. The last time you were offered a copied dvd, who tried to sell it to you? My money is on a mate at work or another mate you know in the pub. I think the drug barons are rather more interested in selling drugs than making a couple of quid on Shrek 2.

I've bought loads in my time, usually to watch before the film comes out. Most of the time I'll replace it when the dvd comes down in price a few months after it's initial release - usually from Blockbusters.

And if the film is good enough, I'll buy it immediately on release anyway.

It is a know fact that the major part of fund raising for the Madrid bombing was funded by priated DVD.

Beside, the quality is highly likely to be rubish in comparision and probably be a VCD rather than a DVD.

I chose other. There wasn't an option for "Bad... because the quality is normally crap". lol

The industry loses money from each pirated DVD

Why does it?

If you still spend as much on films as you would anyway, then 'the industry' isn't losing any money if you watch copies aswell.

any film i dont pay to see, i wouldnt pay to see!

i hate the fact dvds are so expensive, esp compared to the USA.

and i wouldnt want to spend moeny on going to the cinema or on a dvd to watch most of the films i do.

might be changing my opinion now tho, places like lovefilm.com seem to be worth my cash.

It is a know fact that the major part of fund raising for the Madrid bombing was funded by priated DVD.

I can't honestly see that a significant amount of that money came from UK dvd sales, mate. Most people aren't stupid enough to buy a dvd from from some dodgy bloke in Sheffield city centre who's probably at the end of a long chain of increasingly dodgy links. They buy from friends and workmates copying to make a few extra quid to get them through life. Or from a carboot sale where they're doing the same thing on a larger scale and at more risk. I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you're implying that buying a pirated dvd from a carboot sale is funding international terrorism. I know very many of the guys that are working the markets and carboots, and the only thing they're funding is their family - not that I'm saying I actually agree with what they are doing in the first place.

And of course the quality is likely to be inferior to an original dvd - that's the gamble you take. I buy mine off mates at work - on sale or return if the quality sucks.

I have been known to download films from Kazaa, but only because I can't wait for the DVD to be released. Once the DVD is released I will go and buy it. Why do they have to delay DVD releases for so long? :mad:

I picked up Sky Captain today - perfect copy except for the 'not for distribution logo' which pops up a couple of times. Its worth watching the visuals are very atmospheric if you like 50's pulp action.

Originally posted by Ant
I can't honestly see that a significant amount of that money came from UK dvd sales, mate.
I didn't say it came from UK. I was just highlighting the fact that the funding for terrorist activities in Spain came from sales of DVDs. It could be just as likely that someone, somewhere in UK could be in a cell and organizing a target within UK and a possible source of funding could be sales from pirated DVDs. Who knows? All I know it has happened once and it could possibly happen again anywhere.

It's just wrong. It's like stealing from your corner shop, or bringing bottles of beer into the pub after you got them at half the price. It is stealing, no matter how you put it, and it is eating away at the wages of everyone that works on a film, some of whome work at minimum wage.

I don't care if it funds terrorists, it is stealing, depends what sort of person you are. If you don't see stealing as a problem then good luck to you.

I will admit to everyone now - just to set the record straight.

I know pirates
I work with pirates
I trust more pirates than more people I could care to know.

Dont believe the crap the government/FACT are spouting about cash from piracy goes to terrorism and other dodgy things..
IT DOES NOT.

It goes to pay for their families- it goes to pay for their kids upbringing- it goes to pay for other luxuries that they are entitled to- NOT terrorism or other dodgy stuff.

I have seen crap copies of films and god knows I've bought a few but I can guarantee you now I have had a full working copy of the Star Wars Trilogy boxset for around 4 months now in perfect Retail order.. and I paid £10 for mine whereas most people pay £30 plus.

Please dont diss most pirates- because they do sterling work.

The Madrid bombings were funded by Al-Qaeda by the way.
Not piracy.

Dont blame pirates for being killers.
They are not the same.

It all comes down to this as well:

Will you pay £35 for PC Star Wars Battlefront when people I know
can sell it you for £2.50 - the exact same copy everything intact?

Dont tell me you wouldnt be tempted!

Thats £32.50 to do with as you please and a copy of the same
game... think about it.

Pirates are now mostly people who:

* Bedroom Downloaders- who download from P2P ie: Emule

* Store Pirates- who go to HMV, buy something, copy it and
return it for a full refund.

* Blockbuster Pirates- who go into blockbuster and rent the
latest releases- then copy them and take them back.

Not terrorists again.
They dont fund middle men.
The cash goes straight into the pirates own pockets!

I have read that we will soon be able to buy a music cd from the shops for only £6.99, this is because there will be no info booklet inside.
SO WHAT!, give me the cheaper option any day and while they're at it, give us the choice to buy DVD's without all the added features and the info booklet. Then they could sell them at the sort of price that would put the bootleg traders out of action.

For me, i have just received 6 films for £20 and all but one have been perfect!
PS. I think that HERO is over-rated!

Originally posted by ANGELUS
It goes to pay for their families- it goes to pay for their kids upbringing- it goes to pay for other luxuries that they are entitled to- NOT terrorism or other dodgy stuff.

You can say the same about drug dealers.

Originally posted by Snook
You can say the same about drug dealers.

I've never heard of anyone getting addicted to copying DVD's!, and i certainly have never heard of anyone mugging or breaking into houses to feed their DVD habit!

Originally posted by vidster
I've never heard of anyone getting addicted to copying DVD's!, and i certainly have never heard of anyone mugging or breaking into houses to feed their DVD habit!

What has that got to do with what i posted?

Originally posted by Snook
What has that got to do with what i posted?

It seems that you are trying to put bootleg DVD traders into the same bracket as drug dealers!. I know who i would rather be trading on the streets of Sheffield.
OHH... and i think that there is a link to drug dealing in the USA and the IRA, aka Terrorism.

Originally posted by vidster
It seems that you are trying to put bootleg DVD traders into the same bracket as drug dealers!. I know who i would rather be trading on the streets of Sheffield.
OHH... and i think that there is a link to drug dealing in the USA and the IRA, aka Terrorism.

But they are the same, that was the point. Some drug dealers, like pirate traders, sell what they sell to "pay for their families- it goes to pay for their kids upbringing- it goes to pay for other luxuries that they are entitled to". Ok, drugs might be worse for society, but they are both breaking the law for the same reason.

As for mugging and breaking into houses... same thing. Stealing. You can argue whether or not the law should be changed, but until it is these people are criminals.

I have nothing against people sharing files, and people occasionally downloading a film or cd for personal use, this has always been done in one way or another. The people who make a lot of copies and sell them are the problem, and in their efforts to make some easy money, they could be putting other people out of work.

If it is the same law that they are breaking, then who would receive the bigger jail term, The person selling copy DVD's or the person selling drugs?. Fair enough, they are breaking the law but lets face it, a drug dealer is a bigger menace than ANY DVD bootlegger!.
I do'nt think it is that easy as well. If it were, then we would all be doing it.

Well, you can get upto 2 years in jail for just downloading files illegally. A man in scotland recently got 9 months in jail for selling pirate DVD's, so it's not a small crime.

Of course i agree that drug dealers are worse, but what does that mean? We should only deal with drug crimes?

Like i said before, just depends how you view stealing.

And that's all i have to say about that. :D

I don't think the comment meant that the effects of selling drugs and pirate dvd's are the same.

Just that they could theoretically be both funding organised crime (I don't think the original link was to terrorism at all), the mafia run drugs because it makes money, they are also smart enough to pirate and distribute dvd's.

Drug dealers will kill you a lot faster than pirates!
Nuff said!

Pirating media is a more effective way for organised crime and others to make and move money than you might think.

Here's how you might do it....

To start with, there's the extortion element - you get a pre-release pirate copy of something, make some GOOD copies and then say to the owners of the copyright "Give us some money or we'll flood the market." Gresham's Law (bad drives out good) will operate and so chances are the copyright owner won't take the chance and so will pay off the big guys.

Then the small fry - they'll make some money from the flogging of copies that are probably reasonable to crap in quality.

Then there's using the pirated media as payment for other services - if you get a good digital master of something that's in demand, and you owe some money to an 'associate', you can fence the intellectual property off as if it were drugs or stolen goods. But it's easier to fence because you can shift it to anywhere in the world in a few mouse clicks. And you never lose it!

This is also how you can use pirated media in money laundering - rather than shift drugs or gold or cash, which will attract attention, you shift several thousand DVDs of some B movie or other - but rather than the B movie they're dodgy copies of the latest star wars flick. At the far end you relabel and put in nice boxes - even copy the holograms if required - and you've effectively 'moved' a ruckload of money without (most of the time) attracting the attention of the customs, DEA, anti-terrorism guys, whoever.

Whether you like it or not, when you buy dodgy films and games you ARE feeding money up the tree to people you wouldn't want to have tea or a beer with.

Also, whether it's 'right' or not for the companies to charge what they charge for a DVD (and most money is made in video / DVD sales rather than theatre release for most films) you're still stealing from the people who get royalties, etc. I've worked in the film industry and also had books published - and at least one was pirated - Russia, I think. Never saw a penny!

Joe

Originally posted by ANGELUS
I will admit to everyone now - just to set the record straight.

I know pirates
I work with pirates
I trust more pirates than more people I could care to know.

Dont believe the crap the government/FACT are spouting about cash from piracy goes to terrorism and other dodgy things..
IT DOES NOT.

[snip]

Please dont diss most pirates- because they do sterling work.

Well, having done some time in the money laundering trenches, sorry, but pirated media DOES get used by organised crime, has funded both sides in Northern Ireland and is a valid revenue source for terrorist groups the world over. And the risks involved in moving a single DVD master that might be worth 10k are a lot less than the risk involve din shifting 10k worth of drugs.

Whilst your friends may be salt of the earth characters who're involved in a little dealing to give them luxuries, there are bad big lads out there who do it because it's a nice, relatively easy and relatively safe way to make money.

Joe

it's all about the source though isn't it.
If i get a copy from my mate who burnt it on his dvd burner I know that the money isn't going anywhere but into his pocket. If you buy it at a carboot sale then you've know idea where it's going.

And if you download it yourself, the only money changing hands is to your broadband provider.

Originally posted by Cyclone
it's all about the source though isn't it.
If i get a copy from my mate who burnt it on his dvd burner I know that the money isn't going anywhere but into his pocket. If you buy it at a carboot sale then you've know idea where it's going.

And if you download it yourself, the only money changing hands is to your broadband provider.

It's just as wrong from the point of view of depriving someone of royalties, but I guess no one would argue that your mate is funding Al Qaeda!

This is why the powers that be have tried to make the difference between personal copying (wrong) and piracy (organised and very wrong).

Joe

Basically it comes down to this.

If you are silly enough to throw £35 at buying the original Star Wars Trilogy -which is good by the way- and are happy with it then thats all well and good.

If you are like a lot of people in the UK and would rather spend £10 on getting the exact copy of it on pirate dvd- without the box and manual that tells you exactly bugger all then do that.

It all comes down to freedom of choice.

I choose piracy everytime as I will only pay for something I regard as a brilliant buy.. ie: GTA Vice City which I regard as probably the best game ever created because Im not silly enough to pump cash into fat cat corporate ***** pockets so they can buy the next merc on the market.

If the games/movies/music were cheaper- Id buy it.

I use Napster sometimes now- but then again you DONT have the freedom still to do what you want to with your 'purchased' track ie: Protection on the tracks so you cant change the file to mp3 format- so I cant put it on my IPOD!
Still a waste of money and piracy continues.

It will be the same when GTA: San Andreas comes out.

People have already pre-booked this for £35 in many stores or retail outlets on the internet.

I myself will rent it from blockbuster and after reviewing it - will probably buy it- THATS IF it compares with GTA Vice City.
Otherwise- its a trip to the pirates and getting it for £5.

And as for the royalties side of it---

Im sure Madonna wont starve if people download copies of her new album.. if its any good- people will buy it.

So the general issue is- its its good - people buy it.
If its crap - and people can tell its crap- thats when piracy kicks in!

And Im sure JoeP

As a good moral citizen- you will never have watched or lent or copied pirated material at all.

Not even copied music from the radio when you were younger?
Which is still piracy by the way.

Or did you have something ie: A new cd you lent out to a friend or a friend lent you- thats ILLEGAL too by the way.

So in a way- really- we are all pirates.

Even copying broadcasts from TV - still piracy because you are
copying a stations broadcast even though you are not selling it on a carboot or a market stall.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
I choose piracy everytime as I will only pay for something I regard as a brilliant buy.. ie: GTA Vice City which I regard as probably the best game ever created

You believe it is the best game ever, yet you feel fine at stealing the money from the people who created that game you love so much???? :confused:

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And as for the royalties side of it---

Im sure Madonna wont starve if people download copies of her new album.. if its any good- people will buy it.


Of course established millionaire artists like Madonna don't NEED the royalties - but what about young bands starting out, who need every penny they can get?
OK, I'm being idealistic here, but the less money record companies get from cd sales, they less money they will invest in new artists for the future.
And however you look at it or try to justify it, you are CHEATING the creative artist - without whom you wouldn't have the product you are so keen on - out of a reward for their creativity.
Ultimately, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And Im sure JoeP

As a good moral citizen- you will never have watched or lent or copied pirated material at all.

Not even copied music from the radio when you were younger?
Which is still piracy by the way.

Or did you have something ie: A new cd you lent out to a friend or a friend lent you- thats ILLEGAL too by the way.

So in a way- really- we are all pirates.

Even copying broadcasts from TV - still piracy because you are
copying a stations broadcast even though you are not selling it on a carboot or a market stall.

As we're in to our respective moralities, I've never watched, lent or copied pirated material. Taping , videoing, timeshifting are all violations of copyright, and I guess that few of us in the world are totally clean there. Which is why over the years there have been numerous attempts to recoup losses by adding taxes to blank media, etc.

Most of my friends have very different musical tastes to me, so that issue of borrowing rarely turns up.

My main issue is NOT one of you mates making a copy for you and a copy for themselves - my issue in this debate has been about making hundreds of copies and making lots of money, as I mentioned above.

As someone who actually receives royalties for creative work I can tell you that they're not that great and whilst Madonna and Britney may do very well tahnk you the vast majority of creative artists get very little - so you're whacking the small people around the head, if they're on a royalty or points remuneration for their work.


Joe

I would argue however that i am not depriving them of royalties as there is 0 chance of me actually paying for the music/film/game.
It's still theft, as I have no intrinsic right to use whatever it is, but it's a victimless crime as given the alternative of paying i would simply do without.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
It's just as wrong from the point of view of depriving someone of royalties, but I guess no one would argue that your mate is funding Al Qaeda!

This is why the powers that be have tried to make the difference between personal copying (wrong) and piracy (organised and very wrong).

Joe

Originally posted by Cyclone
I would argue however that i am not depriving them of royalties as there is 0 chance of me actually paying for the music/film/game.

But you are bumping up the price for those of use who do buy them.

i fail to see how my non-purchase either way has any effect at all on the sale price of something.

Originally posted by Snook
But you are bumping up the price for those of use who do buy them.

Firstly JOE:

If you want to buy your media at the full price- thats fine by me.

Thats why you and the other people who do this will make sure that the record/movie companies keep their prices high when selling dvd's and cd's to me and you and in a way- you are
yourselves keeping pirates going!!
Think about it.

And also regarding GTA Vice City..

I do think it is the best game of all time after reviewing it and I also BOUGHT the original copy from Game as soon as it came out.
Because for the simple reason- it is an excellent game.
Mostly there is just crap out on the ps2 retailing at the same price.

So in a way- I still do support the games/dvd/music industry.

Angelus,

That's an intriguing logic you have there - that by participating in a legal market place we're all encouraging illegal piracy.

Hmmmmm.....so.....would your logic extend to 'by buying a mobile phone you're encouraging robbery?'

Or if I want a new car is it legitimate for me to steal one?

I suppose the issue with piracy is that it is viewed as a victimless crime. The media companies do charge heavily - they attempt to get their investment back as quickly as possible. You spend a few million developing a game like GTA, and you need to get that investment back quickly before the punters lose interest and want the next big thing. So, you want sales as quickly as possible and at as high a level as possible to get the money back.

Oh, and I'm sorry that your caps-lock key got stuck when typing 'Joe'....

Joe

The logic in this thread is baffling to say the least...

Saying that pirates are entitled to sell something they haven't produced to gain luxuries that they otherwise couldn't have afforded because they've essentially leeched, stolen, whatever someone else work, sweat, toil... whatever... is just plain nuts..


As someone who develops software code, charges a modest fee and has since seen some of that work being duplicated and flogged off I have a far better understanding of the other side of the coin...

Sure I used to pirate the odd software package but now I recognise that someone worked to produce that... If I want it, I pay the price or I find a cheaper alternative.. Simple as that..



Frankly, what it boils down to is this... If someone came to you, asked you to do a job for them and then refused to pay you, you'd be p*ssed off and try to get your money... This is no different.. Anything else is just plain delusional.

it is different though.
If i pirate something that i would never have bought then the artist/programmer doesn't loose anything, i wasn't going to part with money anyway.
It's still wrong, because they worked to produce that product, and they haven't given me permission to use it, but it doesn't hurt them in the pocket.

The majority of piracy is justified by people referring to the virtual monopoly the large companies hold, and their apparent abuse of that monopoly position. It's annoying to know that cds cause 50% in the US compared to UK prices, or that the big 4 companies throw their weight around to stop companies legitimately importing through europe and selling them cheaper.

How many more times.

Joe (this better now for you??)

You will have in some way in your life either copied something from the radio or TV- thats fact! You are a liar if you say you havent- Im very sorry to tell you this fact but you have been in a way- a pirate! Join the club.

Martin_s

You have admitted to all the people reading this topic that you have in the past pirated material. Thankyou for being honest.
BUT You did pirate.. but at least you have admitted as such.

And Im not encouraging robbery and car-theft ???
How does this equate to piracy??

Buying a mobile phone is a lot different situation to piracy isnt it- you are buying hardware- which you cant copy - not like media.

The same goes for a car- if you want the latest Mini you go and buy it- simple as that..

It seems there are too many 'Mother Theresa's' in the world now who are brilliant at telling people how to live their lives- and what they should/should not do- those sorts of people are embarassing themselves.. look at the poll at the top of the topic..
looks like the 'pirates' are winning you goodie-two-shoes again dosent it.. take the hint!

And in any case- who is going to stop the pirates.
YOU.

Dont make me laugh.

AND another reason for piracy as well.

If I go to a cinema- and I do pay to watch films sometimes!- I start watching the film and there is always some ******* arseholes at the back who are intent on spoiling the movie for the rest of us.. using mobiles, eating too loudly.

I pay my hard earned money (I work for a major UK bank) in their IT section to watch that film- I dont want it spoiled by some ***** at the back.

SO therefore I watch the latest copied dvd's that I aquire from friends in the pirate world.. who is the fool in this?

You- or paying cash to see a film constantly interrupted by total
*****.
OR
Me-- I get to see the film before you- dont have to pay and can
watch it at my leisure in total comfort on my home cinema
system.

You decide?

And who's to say that pirates dont use the cash on other meaningful things like donating to charity??

I know I have copied items before for cash or trades.
And I ALWAYS donate to most charities because I like to feel like I am making a difference to the world.

Do you honest non-pirate folk do that?

And to take the **** as well-

Pirates will have the new Star Wars film months before it hits our cinema screens- so I will be seeing it a long time before you people that want to stop piracy.

Now dosent that make you want to grab yourself a copy before anyone else.. tell me you arent tempted.. and I will call you a liar!

Originally posted by ANGELUS
The same goes for a car- if you want the latest Mini you go and buy it- simple as that..

Or steal it, just like pirates do with films, software, songs....?

The product could be a car, a phone or a song, you are still stealing something that someone has made.

If stealing a film isn't wrong, then why is stealing a car? It's insured, the owner gets a replacement.... nobody gets hurt, eh?? Only it doesn't quite work like that, does it?

If you get a film for free and sell it on it is stealing, because someone owns that film, and just like a car alot of people have worked very hard to produce a product.

It may be true that most people pirate something at sometime, but there is a big difference between downloading a song to listen to, and downloading a whole album and putting it on a cd instead of buying the original. One is a form of sharing, the other is stealing. Worst of all are those that do it in an organised crime way, and sell on to the public through carboot sales, or through friends.

Basically Angelus, you are saying that you believe that this form of stealing is ok, but no matter how you word it, it's still stealing until the law is changed, and there are victims.

RE Starwars: You can call me a liar, but i wouldn't even watch that crap if it was on TV, let alone a poor pirate copy.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And who's to say that pirates dont use the cash on other meaningful things like donating to charity??

I know I have copied items before for cash or trades.
And I ALWAYS donate to most charities because I like to feel like I am making a difference to the world.

Do you honest non-pirate folk do that?

Salving your conscience, Angelus?

You obviously know you're doing wrong.

StarSparkle

Hi Angelus,

Yup, Joe looks much better with mixed case.

As for charitable giving....

I actually give a fair amount of time and money to charity and my community. I've been a school governor, trustee on two charities, make donations to various human and animal related charities, so, draw your own conclusions.

I doubt that organised 'big time' pirates give widely to any charities other than themselves, so that argument is rather weak. Seems to me to be a little self-justification....

I'd agree - we've ALL taped from the radio and TV on occasion. Which is why the US government, in it's latest legislation on piracy, is only going after people who've made more than a thousand tracks or other pieces of media available for sharing.

The powers that be are very aware that copying is widespread - what they are more concerned about is organised and systematic piracy. Unless your friends fall in to this category I doubt they'll ever have any problems with the Trading Standards bods, or Customs and Excise. You don't need to justify your position, Angelus - some of us 'do gooders' just have a different viewpoint to you.

Cheers,

Joe

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Salving your conscience, Angelus?

You obviously know you're doing wrong.

StarSparkle

Yeah, it's like trolling on internet forums, you know it's wrong but you do it anyway.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And to take the **** as well-

Pirates will have the new Star Wars film months before it hits our cinema screens- so I will be seeing it a long time before you people that want to stop piracy.

Now dosent that make you want to grab yourself a copy before anyone else.. tell me you arent tempted.. and I will call you a liar!

Oh ****ing please.....

I genuinely don't care about seeing a film ahead of the pack. Most people probably don't.....but if it's that important for you to be ahead of the rest of us, so be it.

You can call me a liar but as I'd probably rather watch an old black and white film noir than spend my time watching the latest Star Wars flick in the cinema, it's unlikely to worry me.

Joe

Originally posted by Rich
Yeah, it's like trolling on internet forums, you know it's wrong but you do it anyway.

Good point about trolling, Rich, but hey, it's Saturday and I'm easily bored...:)

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard

As for charitable giving....

I actually give a fair amount of time and money to charity and my community. I've been a school governor, trustee on two charities, make donations to various human and animal related charities, so, draw your own conclusions.


Thats all well and good Joe- and I commend you for these things.
BUT what difference have you actually made to the world-
NOTHING.

Piracy can change things in the world if its used in the right way.

Because of pirates- you now get to see films at the same time as those shown in the US, you are now going to see price drops in audio CD's -- so basically what Im saying is that global piracy has helped consumers quite a lot.

But for many 'pirates' around most are 99% harmless and only support themselves and their families as I've already said.
There is just that .1% that disgrace the rest of them.
And thats the ********s that support terror in the world.

Pirates out there should consider giving a sum of what they are getting from piracy and donate it to charities to help out wherever needed. Thats helping the world.

My consience is fine by the way as well..
I sleep wonderfully well at nights thanks safe in the knowledge that my bills are paid- and I do a good honest job every day thats HELPS people out.

You cant stop piracy.. for every group you kill off - a couple more emerges.. you cant stop it!

Also- if it was so bad.. why arent the police stopping pirates at the computer fair @ Don Valley in Sheffield today??
They are there every month without fail
Maybe they police take bribes for them to be there??
Something to think about I think.

And I to defend the reputation of pirate copies as well..
I have a copy of Finding Nemo that I had nearly had for a year before coming out in the UK which has all menu's+extras.
SO not all pirates copies are cack.

Thats just down to the individual pirates- if they can be arsed to
do a good version to sell on to the public.

Hi Angelus,

Well, I'd like to think that the kids in the school I was governor at, and the beneficiaries of the charities I worked with and the charities I give money to actually benefited and in that way a tiny difference to the world was made - of course, nothing like the benefits to be gained from the inalienable right to watch Star Wars movies three months before anyone else.

I'm glad you have a job and can sleep at night. Good for you. As for pirates giving money to charity...please.....it's not going to happen, is it? Large scale pirates - no doubt the ones you'd call the 1% - manufacture their goods in sweat shop conditions have been known to 'deal with' people who object to their activities by killing them. Where do you draw the line, Angelus?

I'd suggest that the Trading Standards people SHOULD make an occasional appearance at Computer Fares - I agree that you stamp one thing down and another pops up, but it's still against the law.

As for benefits to consumers - it's a side effect, isn't it? There are also problems arising now with a lot of electronic media caused by copy protection systems. Without pirates these systems wouldn't be required. With piracy every legitimate buyer is viewed and treated as a potential criminal by the supplier of media - this is wrong.

You work for a bank - you must know that a major issue in the world today is asset / money laundering. Pirated goods are an excellent way of moving 'value' around the world. You and your friends are at the bottom end of a scale of piracy that, whether you like it or not, eventually makes a fair amount of money for some very dodgy people.

I think we'll always disagree on this one.

Joe

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Now dosent that make you want to grab yourself a copy before anyone else.. tell me you arent tempted.. and I will call you a liar! Not in the slightest. It's simple theft.

i'm going to give up now, because with angelus on my side, i can't possibly win.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Martin_s

You have admitted to all the people reading this topic that you have in the past pirated material. Thankyou for being honest.
BUT You did pirate.. but at least you have admitted as such.
Wonderful thing about honesty is recognising what you've done, what's right or wrong about it and then acting or not... It's called self determination..

Sure I did it, nope, not proud... yes, better understand what I did and the effect it could have... no, never distributed... No not buying this unbelievable amount of twisted logic, everything being equal... steal a penny chew, you are the same as a grave robber, crap...

Wake up and smell the coffee...

Originally posted by Tony
Not in the slightest. It's simple theft.

:(

Get off your high horse killian - you'll get a nose bleed from the thin air up there.

If I want a DVD then I go and buy it. Just like anything else. I don't live in Canada or China, so I'm happy to pay UK prices. Just like most people.

I don't feel the need to pirate it thank you.

Originally posted by Tony


I don't feel the need to pirate it thank you.

:cool:

You must be right Killian. I'm obviously a bit thick. Thank's for pointing it out - I would have been in glorious ignorance otherwise. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Tony
You must be right Killian. I'm obviously a bit thick. Thank's for pointing it out - I would have been in glorious ignorance otherwise. :thumbsup:

Don't mention it.

Originally posted by Killian
Probably because you're not clever enough to do it. Bet you've got loads of dodgy ones from the market though. You moral crusading types are always the worse offenders.

Don't know about Tony but I'm certainly bright enough to copy DVDs and CDs - I just won't do it.

Hell, years ago I was WRITING copy protection mechanisms for early Apple, BBC and PC discs. Most copy protection systems are not that difficult to get around with the amount of information on the Net.

But we choose not to do it - it's strange that those of us who are law abiding in this respect seem to be on less of a moral high horse about these things than the self-confessed pirates. Must be guilt.....

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Don't know about Tony but I'm certainly bright enough to copy DVDs and CDs - I just won't do it.

Hell, years ago I was WRITING copy protection mechanisms for early Apple, BBC and PC discs. Most copy protection systems are not that difficult to get around with the amount of information on the Net.

But we choose not to do it - it's strange that those of us who are law abiding in this respect seem to be on less of a moral high horse about these things than the self-confessed pirates. Must be guilt.....

Joe

Yeah, I'm really guilty. Sorry, can't chat, got to decrypt a few dvds for my collection. Do you know where I can get a Jolly Roger?

Killian, do you really think you are doing anything to mitigate or further the cause of people who do pirate things?
You're not, i've offered a logical explanation to explain how my actions don't harm anyone, all you've done is look like an idiot.

Originally posted by Killian
Yeah, I'm really guilty. Sorry, can't chat, got to decrypt a few dvds for my collection. Do you know where I can get a Jolly Roger?

Maybe you should steal one?

Would fit the rest of your lifestyle.

Joe

Originally posted by Killian
Probably because you're not clever enough to do it. Bet you've got loads of dodgy ones from the market though. You moral crusading types are always the worse offenders.

Wow, now that's a generalisation I can't let go. While I wouldn't describe myself as a moral crusader I do think of myself as fairly moral and I certainly don't have any pirated or even dodgy dvds, cds or videos. Like Joe, I do my bit for society, trying to put back as much as I take out and, like Tony, if I want a dvd or cd I either buy it, borrow it or rent it.

Say what you like Killian, pirating is illegal and deserving of punishment should it be uncovered. Using the argument that the police are corrupt because they fail to monitor all possible outlets is no justification for your own thieving.

Pirates doing it for the good of the consumer? That's a good one. Whenever you read of police raiding premises and confiscating pirating equipment there's invariably a quantity of illegal drugs confiscated at the same time. I suppose these are for selling on for the good of consumers too?

Well, thank you for the dressing down, Max. Just like being back at school. :mad:

Originally posted by Killian
My posts were done merely to annoy Mr God Almighty Tony, who I don't particularly like (I have my reasons).
Last time I checked this wasn't what these forums are for...

Grow up would you... Lord alone knows acting like a kid might explain why you're being treated like one.

Just forward his IP address to F.A.C.T.

Originally posted by Tony
.....I don't live in Canada or China, so I'm happy to pay UK prices. Just like most people.

I think you'll find people are not happy paying the asking price for DVDs, CDs etc.

They simply have no choice. Which is a breeding ground for "illegal acctivities".




Originally posted by max
...... like Tony, if I want a dvd or cd I either buy it, borrow* it or rent it.

*Which is also an illegal act (borrowing from friends, family members etc), same applies to books, web sites.......




Like Joe above, I've had code of mine knicked and redistributed, and it is not nice.
We are now having to look at more and more sophisticated copy protection models to ensure our rights are not infringed, which takes more R&D, which (in turn) increases costs.


For the record, I have no stolen software, videos, CDs etc. (reason given above).

The only place I'll loan DVDs, videos, games from (which is pretty rare) are the video Hire shops, and I refuse to buy a new DVD until the current retail price has fallen!

I have, however, burnt my own music CDs from my personal audio collection (which is legal, as I have the originals - mostly on vynal).

borrowing is not even illegal in America, the home of DRM. It's called fair use, you own the license to one copy of whatever it is, and as long as you don't create a copy (for example installing software on 2 pc's at the same time) then you're free to do whatever you wish, which includes lending it to people or reselling it.

Originally posted by Killian
Well, thank you for the dressing down, Max. Just like being back at school. I would like to think that you take everything at face value and you really are that 'switched off', but I guess you just took the chance to defend your fellow mod. My posts were done merely to annoy Mr God Almighty Tony, who I don't particularly like (I have my reasons).

My apologies if you think, from my style of writing, that that was a dressing down. It's how I write and others too have accused me of having a 'lecturing' style.

No, I don't write to defend my fellow mod, quite the opposite on many an occasion as he would testify.

I don't understand the switched off bit though.

sscusx, That's a load of crock, check the copyright laws; cds, etc. are allowed to be lent to friends and family.

Originally posted by Cyclone
borrowing is not even illegal in America, the home of DRM. It's called fair use, ......

Fair use in the UK allows for a PERSONAL bacup copy, NOT to be loaned or hired!

Under UK copyright law it is an illegal act to lend or borrow copyrighted material.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad tidings an' all that, but this is the law as it currently stands in the UK!

Not that you're going to be taken to court for borrowing a DVD etc from a friend etc, you are still breaking the (UK) law on copyright infringments!

Originally posted by max
sscusx, That's a load of crock, check the copyright laws; cds, etc. are allowed to be lent to friends and family.

Hmmm..

Doesn't say anything about lending PERSONAL fair use copies to friends etc at
http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law.

Originally posted by sccsux
Hmmm..

Doesn't say anything about lending PERSONAL fair use copies to friends etc at
http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law.


Also, as i aluded to in my above post, FAIR USE (Fair Dealing) in this country is applied differently than accross the pond, in that it only applies to SHORT exerpts from the given media, or PERSONAL backups of Software.

Check the link above!

I then expect an apology ;-)!

Originally posted by Killian
Well, thank you for the dressing down, Max. Just like being back at school. I would like to think that you take everything at face value and you really are that 'switched off', but I guess you just took the chance to defend your fellow mod. My posts were done merely to annoy Mr God Almighty Tony, who I don't particularly like (I have my reasons).

Hey Killian, maybe it was because I said that I think you are being an arse - which I maintain. The difference is that I said it in a PM reply to your original PM where you directly insulted me. I'm quite happy to keep it out of here, but if you want to get personal I think that you will find that you started the childish name calling.

Sometimes it's better to say nowt you know - a bit like that Churchill / Lady Astor quote.

Now that you have started generally slagging off the Mod team for no good reason I think you may well reap what you sow.

If you want to respond, please do it by PM - I can't be bothered to do this in public - most of the the other members probably aren't really that interested in your vanity insults. By the way - if you think that me or the Mod team in general aren't allowed an opinion then please feel free to complain to inbox(at)sheffieldforum.co.uk.

:thumbsup:

Max, Tony,

As Killian has apparently reported me to the Moderators (I believe you, Max, to be precise) for one of my postings I await my fate.

Joe

Originally posted by sccsux
Hmmm..

Doesn't say anything about lending PERSONAL fair use copies to friends etc at
http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law.

Thank you for supporting my assertion that it is permissable to lend copyrighted material. It is not explicitly defined as an infringement and that would be a defence in a court of law. In fact, under the act, lending is defined as making a copy available:

Section 18A: Infringement by rental or lending of work to the public

18A.-(1) The rental or lending of copies of the work to the public is an act restricted by the copyright in--

(a) a literary, dramatic or musical work,

(b) an artistic work, other than--

(i) a work of architecture in the form of a building or a model for a building, or

(ii) a work of applied art, or

(c) a film or a sound recording.

(2) In this Part, subject to the following provisions of this section--

(a) "rental" means making a copy of the work available for use, on terms that it will or may be returned, for direct or indirect economic or commercial advantage, and

(b) "lending" means making a copy of the work available for use, on terms that it will or may be returned, otherwise than for direct or indirect economic or commercial advantage, through an establishment which is accessible to the public.

So you can either apologise here or by pm. :D

there is a clear distinction between lending to a friend and lending for profit to the public. That should be obvious to anyone.
Whilst it's true that "Fair use" is not actually written into our law, as Max says, neither are the uses that fair use would cover actually restricted, so qed fair use exists.

Originally posted by max
Thank you for supporting my assertion that it is permissable to lend copyrighted material.

Only an original, not a copy.

Originally posted by max
It is not explicitly defined as an infringement and that would be a defence in a court of law.

Probably once as a test case, and the law would then be changed to close this loop-hole!

Originally posted by max
So you can either apologise here or by pm. :D

OK.

I appologise for the fact that you misundertood the point I was making... Which was....

None of us are "whiter than white", "holier than holy" etc. we have, almost to a person, taken part in some form of piracy at some point in our lives.

Please note the fact that my biased is towards software piracy, not so much DVD etc.




Originally posted by cyclone
there is a clear distinction between lending to a friend and lending for profit to the public. That should be obvious to anyone.

Agreed, and common sense should prevail, but this is the Law we're talking about.;-)



Originally posted by cyclone

Whilst it's true that "Fair use" is not actually written into our law, as Max says, neither are the uses that fair use would cover actually restricted, so qed fair use exists.


If it is not written into our law, then it is not legal!

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Max, Tony,

As Killian has apparently reported me to the Moderators (I believe you, Max, to be precise) for one of my postings I await my fate.

Joe

There won't be any fate as I already told you. I am not intersted in any sort of 'reprimand'. Withdrawing your post in which you as good as called me a thief would have been suffiecient, but you didn't even have the decency to do that. So much for your moralising.

I am a hard -working mother who has struggled to bring up four children. I have never 'stolen' anything in my life - and let's stop being petty and stupid here, copying a cd, dvd or whatever, is not the same as stealing someone else's property in the sense that everyone recognises the meaning of 'theft'.

You don't know me and I certainly don't know you. Your perfect, moralising, self-righteous attitude could be a bluff for all anyone knows. Forums are full of people like you, who hide away in their little rooms, typing away their damnations in their safe world of anonimity. You would certainly never call me a thief to my face - and if you think you would then this can be arranged quite easily - so don't do it on here.

It would be interseting to hear from others on this forum who you are accusing of leading a lifestyle of stealing, simply because they have copied or taped a video, cd or dvd.

I'm not going to argue anymore. I have edited all my posts on this.

Killian,

A fair number of people on here know me for what I am and who I am. I don't 'hide in my little room', and would hardly say I'm anonymous. A photo and my real name against each posting tends to remove any anonymity I might have. Indeed, one might say that you're more anonymous than I am.

I view copying of software / CDs / DVDs etc as theft because I have, in the past, lost royalties after stuff I've written has been ripped off. If that's being self-righteous then I guess I am self-righteous. I'll let other people who've delat with me on the forum decide for themselves whether I'm self-righteous or not. And as for being perfect - far from it, and would never claim otherwise.

As to other people on the forum, I've already had the argument about copying=theft with several people before you, and will no doubt have the same debate again with others.

I'm sure we'll end up in debates on other subjects, but I think here we're now getting off the subject and in to name calling.

Joe

on the contrary, if something is not written down as illegal, then it's legal.

You said nothing originally about lending copies, you just wrote about lending. Have we concluded now that although fair use is not codified it is acceptable by default within uk law?

Killian, I don't really see what your issue with Tony is. He's right, copying is theft, just fit it within your moral frameworkd somehow or stop doing it. I wouldn't steal software written by a small company, but since no one looses anything if i copy a film i'd never pay to see i'm happy to do that. Legally though it's still theft.

Originally posted by sccsux
Only an original, not a copy.



Probably once as a test case, and the law would then be changed to close this loop-hole!



OK.

I appologise for the fact that you misundertood the point I was making... Which was....

None of us are "whiter than white", "holier than holy" etc. we have, almost to a person, taken part in some form of piracy at some point in our lives.

Please note the fact that my biased is towards software piracy, not so much DVD etc.






Agreed, and common sense should prevail, but this is the Law we're talking about.;-)






If it is not written into our law, then it is not legal!

Originally posted by Cyclone


Killian, I don't really see what your issue with Tony is. He's right, copying is theft,

1. It's not about this and i wouldn't expect you to know anyway.

2. this dvd copying thing is not an issue, if you read my posts properly.

3. Can we drop it and move on, delete the thread, anything?

AT LAST!
Someone on this thread that is on the same wavelength as me..
Well done Killian!

And for all the people out there that were debating whether borrowing other people's media is illegal.. IT IS!

If you watch any dvd from the uk you will notice a warning titles screen forbidding you to rent, LEND or otherwise copy this product.

LEND being the keyword here - so you in effect are breaking the law.. now this does not mean that you are automatically a pirate- but you are breaking a UK law.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
If you watch any dvd from the uk you will notice a warning titles screen forbidding you to rent, LEND or otherwise copy this product.

LEND being the keyword here - so you in effect are breaking the law.. now this does not mean that you are automatically a pirate- but you are breaking a UK law.

Which has been my point throught my involvment in this thread, which I shall now take no further part in (as some people just don't get it). ;-)

Originally posted by Killian
1. It's not about this and i wouldn't expect you to know anyway.

2. this dvd copying thing is not an issue, if you read my posts properly.

3. Can we drop it and move on, delete the thread, anything?
I don't know what your problem is either to be honest. You seem to accuse me of deleting and editing your posts, which I catagorically haven't done. As for modding, well it's very clear when I act as in my capacity as a mod and everyone else seems to be able to differentiate.

Let me tell you how it is Killian. You are getting away with abusing me because I'm a Mod. Abusive posts are normally edited or removed, but wonder of wonders, your abuse of me is still here - even though I don't see what your beef is. :shakes:

There is no 'clique' or conspiracy and no-one talks about you behind your back because frankly we have other things to worry about.

As I've said to you before, please feel free to complain about me to the Forum Admin if you think you have a genuine case.

Somewhere along the line all the money we spend must fund something dodgy, especially the various taxes we pay to the upper-class gangsters, called politicians, who run the country. Most people work a major part of their lives for a fraction of what they deserve. Why shouldn't they save a few quid here and there? It's not stealing if you are taking back whats being legally but immorally stolen from you. The music and film industry are greedy and what's more most of their output isn't even worth nicking. They can afford to lose a few billion.

you are out and out plain as day WRONG. They can put whatever they like on the warning screen. But that license for that dvd is yours. Public lending (ie for cash at blockbusters) is illegal. Lending it to your friend, or reselling it privately through the forum is perfectly within your rights because you own that copy to do as you wish with (excepting broadcast, including public playing/lending or hiring).

Why would we delete the thread, ignoring the posts getting upset because they don't like being called a thief there's some reasonable discussion of an issue that affects many people.

mojo_pin - that's my point about moralising it, it's still illegal, but if you are happy to do it, then don't let someone elses morals upset you.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
AT LAST!
Someone on this thread that is on the same wavelength as me..
Well done Killian!

And for all the people out there that were debating whether borrowing other people's media is illegal.. IT IS!

If you watch any dvd from the uk you will notice a warning titles screen forbidding you to rent, LEND or otherwise copy this product.

LEND being the keyword here - so you in effect are breaking the law.. now this does not mean that you are automatically a pirate- but you are breaking a UK law. [I]

Originally posted by _mojo_pin
Somewhere along the line all the money we spend must fund something dodgy, especially the various taxes we pay to the upper-class gangsters, called politicians, who run the country. Most people work a major part of their lives for a fraction of what they deserve. Why shouldn't they save a few quid here and there? It's not stealing if you are taking back whats being legally but immorally stolen from you. The music and film industry are greedy and what's more most of their output isn't even worth nicking. They can afford to lose a few billion.

Of course people work hard for a pittance in this country. I work as a contractor in IT and because of the way in which the tax system is structured I pay roughly GBP 300 a month extra in taxes than I would if I did the same work as a permanent staff member. However, I still believe in the old fashioned notion of a 'social contract'. I pay my taxes, and the state should provide me with certain things in return.

That comment about 'it's not stealing if you take back what's legally but immorally stolen from you' is rather odd. The recond companies, film companies, software houses, etc. are not 'taking' stuff from you. You pay them, if you want their goods and services, and you have the right NOT to pay them if you DON'T want their goods and services. The tax breaks and concessions given to the creative industries in the UK are quite pathetic - that's whay so many films get made abroad.

If you want to borrow DVDs, CDs, etc. then we have video rental shops and the public library system.

The media industries do produce some crap, but thet via large scale copying will not stop the crap being produced. I'd argue that a lot of the 'crap' is the multi-million pound summer blockbusters which often work hard to break even but are such a marketing juggernaut that they'll always be viewed as safe bets for the film companies. The projects that suffer when you do your 'morally correct stealing' are the small films, new bands, new game designers. The industry is precisely that - an industry - and if it feels it's losing money then it will do two things.

1. Stop the loss by bringing out poorly thought out media protection schemes and legal weaponry (the US DMCA for example)
2. Focus more money on what they view as 'cash cows' - your effects laden summer block busters, digitally remastered Star Wars boxed sets, etc. rather than encouraging new work by new artists.

This is stupid management of the highest order but is teh way that industries tend to react. The introduction of laws and technologies aimed at defeating piracy is a direct result of large scale copying and piracy, and the rest of us who try and play a straight game suffer. And as was pointed out further up this thread, the available breadth of films and music available will decrease as risks cease being taken with new artists.

Joe

Echoes of "home taping is killing music" here.

Pircay is wrong, there's no question about it. Just because an MP3, a DVIX or DVD R copy or a ripped-off piece of software only exists digitally, and not as a tangible "thing" that is swiped from a shop's shelf, doesn't make it any less of a crime. Yet people constantly try to justify it in these terms.

However...

By being so reluctant to recognise the possibilities and challenges of the digital age, film companies in particular have shot themselves in the foot. They're now desperately trying to scrabble around for some kind of solution to the piracy problem because of their short-sightedness.

Why don't they release DIVX or XVID versions of films on-line? Why don't they release a version of iTunes for movies, or movie clips? Why don't they accept that pirates will coninue to prosper until the public are offered something new, a better deal for their money than they're getting?

As for record companies - well, they are very scared that they are becoming redundant. And with good reason. Any band can release stuff online themselves now - if they need PR, they can always hire a PR company...

The new, almost 'open source' approaches to copyright being considered, whereby you would have a load of rights to sample, copy and mess with stuff even for commercial purpposes look very promising. (Creative Commons, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3716218.stm)

I'd have no problems releasing my stuff in such a 'copyleft' format, provided that I was getting paid something initially AND that my efforts were then acknowledged by the copiers / samplers.

Digital media gives incredible opportunities for creativity - I have no problems about middle mn disappearing, provided that there are the means of distribution and remuneration for the artists and originators of the work.

But even with more open copyright arrangements, that might remove a lot of the existing distribution layer, there still will be teh need to protect creatives from being ripped off. And for people who need help getting their material out far and wide, a publisher / distribution network will still be required, and they'll still want to protect their assets.

Joe

I think its bad, but i dont believe it ruins the industry.

Can you imagine.. you came up with a great idea, and you spent years developing it, only to find some lesser quality version of it freely available months before its ready... Heartbreaking!

Originally posted by Lickable
I think its bad, but i dont believe it ruins the industry.

Can you imagine.. you came up with a great idea, and you spent years developing it, only to find some lesser quality version of it freely available months before its ready... Heartbreaking!

I've had something similar happen to me a few times in the last 20 years. I've seen images of the 'dodgy' copy of a book I wrote, had lots of articles I've written 'borrowed' by the electronics and amateur radio press in places like India and Russia. I was offered a copy of a program I'd written as it was 'something you might be interested in, Joe, as it's in your line of work'.

It's heartbreaking, even when tiny amounts of money are involved!!

Joe

We get ripped off as customers by overpriced CD's and DVD's and so the net result is we rip them off back and until these items are fairly priced for what they actually are long may it continue.
I do not for one second buy into the 'it funds terrorism rubbish'. Where exactly is the hard proof???
The majority of the copies I watch have been from a mate who's got a DVD writer etc who I can say without doubt is not funding terrorism.
DVD distributors make millions from releasing just the film on DVD, only to release a special edition DVD 3 months later, then we get the special edition with some extra bits just in time for Christmas and by the time we've bought the sequels individually we then get the box set to then be followed by the Boxed Set digitally remastered with extras never seen before...scumbag Lucasfilm are the prime culprits so **** them. I will copy and copy films for as long as I can and if they want to try and catch me then come get it!!!.

I don't think that you can say that you are being 'ripped off' by media companies, it's just that lots of peoples have the means to steal the media that they produce.

If you want to get aerated then choose Daz, or Persil, or some other soap powder where the packet costs more than the contents. Now THAT is mark up (or rip off if you like).

The difference is that you can't make soap powder, and you need it, so you don't try to moralise it.

Just look at the top of this topic now in the polls!

Piracy is kicking ass!!!

I did buy one brilliant original dvd today:
The Goonies for £10

Now that is an excellent price for a excellent movie just been released again.. you see, Im still funding the film industry buy buying films.

Thanks to everyone keeping this topic going- it is still very entertaining reading the comments posted on here.

I wanna see a truffle shuffle!!!!
Hope i have the right film.

Thats the one man!!
Absolutely class...

And they are making Goonies 2!

Also to add to the piracy debate-
do you really own your films and cd's you buy from a store.

I dont think so to be honest.

You are not allowed to do that much when you have 'bought' a copy of such media from a store.

I dont know whether this is true but I heard you could make a backup copy of a dvd/cd BUT you can only keep it for 24 hours?? Can anyone clarify this for me?

Also you are not supposed to lend them out to anyone, or rent them, or play them at a venue unless its at your home.

Makes me wonder whether we are actually buying a copy at all.. moreless renting one from the companies that produce them.

Take for example JLO - remix album.

Copy protected to the hilt so you could not play it on a pc. car stereo etc..

I paid £15 for that when it came out!

I should have the rights to do what I want with it as I paid my cash and I dont want some corporate suckup telling me I cant do what I want with it.

Your morals don't upset me Cyclone, I wouldn't question them and technically you are right, anyone who pirates material is a thief by definition of law. However, I'm sure everyone has broken a law at some point whether it's a biggie or some obscure medieval law about not pulling a face at an ox on the sabbath or whatever. My point is that I don't view someone copying a DVD as being the same as nicking an old ladies purse or anyones purse for that matter. Most laws protect the rich and greedy and I have little respect for them in my heart.

Wibbles,

With regard to proof about the links between terrorism and piracy, try these for size.

Whether you like it or not, it has happened and will no doubt continue to happen. The NI story below is close to home - think about it next time you buy from a car boot sale.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000528473

http://www.dannemann.com.br/site.cfm?app=show&dsp=1205&pos=1.4.3&lng=en

http://www.iacc.org/teampublish/uploads/WhitePaper.pdf

According to a Sunday Times article :

The Real IRA, the terrorist group behind the Omagh bombing which killed 29 people, is reportedly producing counterfeit games to raise funds.

The UK's Sunday Times claims that pirate copies of PlayStation 2 games are being sold at around £30, making the terror group around £20,000 per week.

Legitimate copies of the games, which cost £45, are hard to find, increasing demand for bootleg versions.

Sorry I haven't got a date on this one, or a link.

Joe

u own the physcial media, and you own a license to the material on it.
You can resell the license, backup the media (true backup only, not to sell or lend it on). You can lend it to friends, give it away and play it in any private venue.
Of course you aren't meant to rent it out, or to show it in a pub, or charge entry to your home to show it to the public, there are seperate licences to do those things, are you surprised?

Copy protection that stops a legitimate use is another issue and in that case i'd take the cd straight back to the shop and get a refund. It should also be labelled when you buy it and not actually be showing the cd logo as it no longer meets the cd spec.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Also to add to the piracy debate-
do you really own your films and cd's you buy from a store.

I dont think so to be honest.

You are not allowed to do that much when you have 'bought' a copy of such media from a store.

I dont know whether this is true but I heard you could make a backup copy of a dvd/cd BUT you can only keep it for 24 hours?? Can anyone clarify this for me?

Also you are not supposed to lend them out to anyone, or rent them, or play them at a venue unless its at your home.

Makes me wonder whether we are actually buying a copy at all.. moreless renting one from the companies that produce them.

Take for example JLO - remix album.

Copy protected to the hilt so you could not play it on a pc. car stereo etc..

I paid £15 for that when it came out!

I should have the rights to do what I want with it as I paid my cash and I dont want some corporate suckup telling me I cant do what I want with it.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Wibbles,

With regard to proof about the links between terrorism and piracy, try these for size.

Whether you like it or not, it has happened and will no doubt continue to happen. The NI story below is close to home - think about it next time you buy from a car boot sale.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000528473

http://www.dannemann.com.br/site.cfm?app=show&dsp=1205&pos=1.4.3&lng=en

http://www.iacc.org/teampublish/uploads/WhitePaper.pdf

According to a Sunday Times article :

The Real IRA, the terrorist group behind the Omagh bombing which killed 29 people, is reportedly producing counterfeit games to raise funds.

The UK's Sunday Times claims that pirate copies of PlayStation 2 games are being sold at around £30, making the terror group around £20,000 per week.

Legitimate copies of the games, which cost £45, are hard to find, increasing demand for bootleg versions.

Sorry I haven't got a date on this one, or a link.

Joe
Well my mate and I have sod all to do with international terrorism so I think I'll sleep easy and carry on watching and buying pirated films.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
The UK's Sunday Times claims that pirate copies of PlayStation 2 games are being sold at around £30, making the terror group around £20,000 per week.

Legitimate copies of the games, which cost £45, are hard to find, increasing demand for bootleg versions.

Sorry, just saw this. Pirated games, selling at £30 a time? Must be darned good copies :)

Really bugs me when ridiculous figures like this are invented to back up a spurious argument. It happens all too often, and journalists are very susceptible to it.

Originally posted by Greenback
Sorry, just saw this. Pirated games, selling at £30 a time? Must be darned good copies :)

Really bugs me when ridiculous figures like this are invented to back up a spurious argument. It happens all too often, and journalists are very susceptible to it.

I guess 'non-spurious' figures tend to be hard to come by in this game. The issue is that moneys are funneled in to terrorists.

These guys usually have duplicating facilities that are top of the range. There have been numerous occasions with regard to softwrae piracy where even Microsoft have been hard pressed to tell the difference between fakes and the real thing.

What makes a 'good' copy will depend on where you're selling it and the expectations of the buyer. If you're trying to push a batch of dodgy goods to a high street shop then yes, you'd better be VERY good and you'd better have documentation to back up your goods. If you're shifting stuff through a car boot sale then chances are that as long as the game plays you'll not get too many problems.

'Good' is not an objective measure of quality - a rip off is 'good' from the point of view of the pirate if they can get it in to the market place.

Joe

£30 for a copied ps2 game!!

Now these are the sort of pirates that really **** me off and these are the sorts of pirates that should be stopped.

PS2 games copied should retail for £5 or less from what I have seen- and I've seen a lot...

But if people are stupid enough to pay £30 for a copy - Im sure those pirates are ******* themselves.

The duplication methods used by pirates nowadays are not that too hi-tech as you would imagine as well.

Just a plain old copy box will do with a few dvd writers stuck in it.

If you dont know what a copy-box is- think of a tower pc without anything in it apart from one DVD-Rom drive at the top and then 4-5 dvd writer drives at the bottom of it.. its capable of copying a full dvd 5x in less than 10 mins depending on the speed of your writers though.

For the major pirates only though.
As the setup costs around £250 for the box and then you have to supply the drives at around £50-60 each for decent writers and £30-40 for a decent dvd rom drive.

But anyway - a big shoutout to all non-terrorist pirates reading this forum right now!

Keep up the good work!!

Originally posted by Cyclone
Killian, do you really think you are doing anything to mitigate or further the cause of people who do pirate things?


The main thing which really ticked me off was the person who blatantly accused me of leading a completely dishonest lifestyle. Unfortunately, Tony bore the brunt of my anger, which was unfair to him and I have apologised. Thankfully, he was been exceptionally decent about it, when he had every justification not to be. I blame PMT's myself, but that is another thread.

Anyway, all you morally perfect people out there will be pleased to learn I purchsed 2 dvd's this week - WILLOW from play.com and KILLER KLOWNS imported from Amazon, so I guess your moralising worked. I am a reformed character.

looks like as a forum we are in favour of it then.... long may it continue :)

before anyone asks I do purchase originals - Peter Kays new (old) one yesterday and all three children of the corn in the week. If the films worth it - then I will. Until they provide quality at a fair price then this is the road I will continue to travel.

Here's something that the moral brigade might like to comment on.

I recently purchased a couple of dvds from Amazon. They have never been released in this country and are Region1 (USA & Canada) only. Having a multi-region player, I expected them to work okay on my dvd player. One of them (KILLER KLOWNS) played perfectly okay, but the other (an 90's remake of THE BLOB) carried Region 1 protection, which doesn't allow it to play on multi-region players.

Now, I can hardly see Amazon refunding my money as, technically, the dvd is not faulty, although I wasn't warned at any time about the Region 1 protection. The only way round this in order for me not to have completely wasted my money on a useless (to me) item, was to decrypt the film to strip the region protection and copy it. I now have a fully working copy of The Blob.

Was I wrong to do this (I did purchase the original dvd, after all) and how does this effect your 'theft' argument?

Would be particularly interested to hear JoePritchards comments on this one.

Originally posted by Killian
Here's something that the moral brigade might like to comment on.

I recently purchased a couple of dvds from Amazon. They have never been released in this country and are Region1 (USA & Canada) only. Having a multi-region player, I expected them to work okay on my dvd player. One of them (KILLER KLOWNS) played perfectly okay, but the other (an 90's remake of THE BLOB) carried Region 1 protection, which doesn't allow it to play on multi-region players.

Would be particularly interested to hear JoePritchards comments on this one.

I'm glad you think my views are worth having Killian. I'm sure, though, that you're just out to try and score points off of me than actually engage in debate or perhaps exhibit a real interest in my views.

Regionalisation of DVDs is a crap idea. It was originally introduced to handle the different release schedules and also the different copyright requirements for different prts of teh world. For example, some material doesn't get released on DVD in Europe because the people with the European rights for the DVD format haven't agreed that it can be released.

Multi-regional players will work on a lot of DVDs but not all - that's just the way it is. Years ago if you bought a video tape form the US in their NTSC format you wouldn't expect it to play back on one of our PAL recorders. I recently purchased a Region 2 copy of Joss Weedon's 'Firefly', about 3 or 4 months after it had come out on Region 1. I could have got the Region 1 one, but didn't want to run the risk of potential incompatibility problems.

You paid your money and you got something that you couldn't play back - I'd probably say that if you make a copy for your own use, although it's illegal I wouldn't call it piracy, and I doubt the powers that be would give a ****. You've probably used software that, in the US, would put you in contravention of the DMCA, but here we don't have such a stupid law anyway, so no sweat.

If you were to SELL the original after copying it then that's a different situation, though....

Is that the sort of opinion you wanted Killian?

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I'm glad you think my views are worth having Killian. I'm sure, though, that you're just out to try and score points off of me than actually engage in debate or perhaps exhibit a real interest in my views.

Joe

You got me.

I agree with Joes take on that, except for it not being illegal to make a copy for personal use.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I agree with Joes take on that.
You do? Wow, I'm shocked.

Do you know anyone who wants to buy an almost new copy of The Blob (Region 1)?

Originally posted by Cyclone

Why would we delete the thread,
[I]

Why would 'we' delete the thread.

Apologies, as I didn't realise you were a mod. You really need to have a word with admin as they (Geoff?) haven't updated your status. You are still displayed as registered user.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I agree with Joes take on that, except for it not being illegal to make a copy for personal use.
Hi Cyclone,

You're right as far as a copy for personal use is concerned- although whether a 'personal backup' is the same as decrypting something to strip the protection and then cloning the DVD I'm not sure...:)

But I think it should be treated the same!

Joe

i was using the pejorative term as 'we' are all contributing to this thread. Some of us with more useful comments than others.

Originally posted by Killian
Why would 'we' delete the thread.

Apologies, as I didn't realise you were a mod. You really need to have a word with admin as they (Geoff?) haven't updated your status. You are still displayed as registered user.

Originally posted by Cyclone
Some of us with more useful comments than others.

Yet you still find the need to reply to them in order to bolster your sense of one-upmanship, I guess?

Hmmm, I can't really decide. I don't want to fund terrorism but I do want films cheap so if its going in my mates back pocket I'm game.
There was a guy I once met at a church fayre selling all sorts of things and he car boots at bowshaw and chesterfield, just wish I got his number cos he was a genuine kinda guy prob trying to keep up with his mortgage.
If film people would look at what people are willing to pay and aim closer then maybe more people would wait for the quality releases.

Here are a couple of interesting points from a BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3887189.stm). It's not an in depth study, but it provides some intersting food for thought.

Is it a victimless crime?

Not according to UK authorities, who say DVD piracy is a lucrative part of a wider network that involves criminal gangs, drug dealers, people smugglers, paedophile rings and even terrorists. They say it is an easy way for gangs to raise funds for their other criminal activities. Gangs can earn 10 euros (£6.65) for each euro invested in piracy, and a kilogram (35 ounces) of pirate DVDs is worth more than a kilogram of cannabis resin, according to authorities.

Do pirate DVDs fund al-Qaeda?

The authorities are a bit vague on this one - they say terrorist groups do sell DVDs in the UK and take the profits out of the country to fund their activities, but are wary of giving specific information. In the UK, police do say paramilitary groups sell 80% of counterfeit goods in Northern Ireland. And in 2003, Interpol warned that counterfeiting was becoming "the preferred method of funding for a number of terrorist groups" and there were enough examples "for us to worry about the threat to public safety". BBC article

Originally posted by Zebra
Hmmm, I can't really decide. I don't want to fund terrorism but I do want films cheap so if its going in my mates back pocket I'm game.
There was a guy I once met at a church fayre selling all sorts of things and he car boots at bowshaw and chesterfield, just wish I got his number cos he was a genuine kinda guy prob trying to keep up with his mortgage.
If film people would look at what people are willing to pay and aim closer then maybe more people would wait for the quality releases.

See my posting with the links about funding terrorism above.

I know what it's like to have problems paying bills - but despite the fact I could do it and probably get away with it, I choose not to enter the piracy game.

Joe

NO! You are very wrong bongmonster.

Check out the other topic about piracy- do a search for it and read what everyone else has posted.

99.9% of pirates are people who pirate for their own benefit-- its just the .1% who are the real dicks and fund terrorism and other stupid stuff!

Big shoutout to all the pirates on the sheffield forum by the way as well!

And if piracy was so bad..

Why do the pirates at the don valley computer fairs STILL get away with selling copied dvd's every month?

I rest my case!

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And if piracy was so bad..

Why do the pirates at the don valley computer fairs STILL get away with selling copied dvd's every month?

I rest my case!

Not so much a case as a statement about Don Valley Computer Fairs. I have no idea whether pirated goods are sold there as I've never been!

You might as well say that 'if stealing a car is wrong, how come so many people get away with it?'

Just because something is tolerated doesn't make it right.

Joe

I think we should now close this topic because its gone stale.. and the pirates have basically won the fight anyway!

Check the poll at the top!

Thankyou and goodnight.....

Bit late to this one i know but i see nowt up with a fella making a bit of cash on the side whilst risking prision time to bring us cheap dvds earlier than the shops can on a sunday market.

lets keep it going!

dvd copying pays funds to extremist crazy granny drivers

Originally posted by ANGELUS
And if piracy was so bad..

Why do the pirates at the don valley computer fairs STILL get away with selling copied dvd's every month?

I rest my case!

Have you been recently - I think you'll find this is now NOT the case.

am i missing something dvds costing the earth. a lot of dvds new films cost about 15.99 thats only 80 fags or so, or how i judge things 7 pints of beer (ish). if thats to much wait six months and you will get it for under a tenner thats not bad for a good film. got to be better then paying about £4 or whatever for one with no extras poor picture and rubbish sound. someone lent me a few and said the quality was great. nah they are pants sorry only my view.

Originally posted by jparr
got to be better then paying about £4 or whatever for one with no extras poor picture and rubbish sound. someone lent me a few and said the quality was great. nah they are pants sorry only my view.

This may be the case for films which haven't been released on dvd yet. However, many films are already retail in other countries like the US or are going retail there very soon (Bourne Supremacy, Spiderman 2, for instance) and these are available in perfect quality with 5.1 sound as the originals. Perhaps if all dvds were released simultaneously in the UK and the USA it might help matters.

I didnt go to the computer fair @ Don Valley this month but Im pretty sure the usual 3 or 4 pirates are still there doing the biz!

And good on them too!

Speaking of pirated material:

I've just landed the new Team America and Spy Captain DVD's straight from the states and I would like to tell you all...

Team USA: Brilliant

Spy Captain: Its ****e!

Originally posted by ANGELUS


Spy Captain: Its ****e!

I agree. Worst film I've ever seen. So much for waiting for the official release and paying £15.99 for this garbage

Originally posted by Killian
Perhaps if all dvds were released simultaneously in the UK and the USA it might help matters.
I too have always found it strange that releases are staggered. The industry does itself no favours in regard to the pirates.

Originally posted by Tony
I too have always found it strange that releases are staggered. The industry does itself no favours in regard to the pirates.

On the face of it, the different release dates may appear strange, but there are many reasons why releases are not simultaneous worldwide.

Disney films for example are usually released to coincide with school holidays. The dates of these holidays vary from country to country, hence the different release dates.

The seasons are reversed in the Northern/Southern hemispheres, so films with a summer or winter theme are often held back for that reason.

Sometimes a film could still be in the cinemas in some countries when it's already gone to DVD in others. So if it was on sale in the video shops that would virtually kill the film in the cinemas.

Its ilegal to download pirate films, or have copies of them, and the same goes for music as well... u wont catch me doing it :P

Originally posted by peter41
Its ilegal to download pirate films, or have copies of them, and the same goes for music as well... u wont catch me doing it :P
You got the new madonna album illegally :suspect:

posted by Zinger549
You got the new madonna album illegally

:o :o :o who told u such lies, lies all lies :P

I got it illegally. Listenig to it has persuaded me to mend my ways. therefore I have contacted my collegues at south yorkshire police. you are going to get a visit from a couple of boys in blue peter :D

posted by Robbie
you are going to get a visit from a couple of boys in blue peter


Men in uniform ... they just do it for me.....:thumbsup: :heyhey:

What about people who 'try before you buy'?

People who 'acquire' albums/movies/software etc, try them out and think "This is well cool, i'm off to buy it legally!"

I see this happening around the net all the time.

I still agree with the pirates - as per usual!

And I'm hoping for a half decent copy of the new Harry Potter this week so its all good :) :thumbsup:

I don't agree with pirate movies. Films should be appreciated on the big screen first, and then on proper (ie full quality) DVDs. I don't say that purely because of my job (cinema management), but have always felt the same way.

However..

With regards to the "damage to the movie industry" arguement - I don't think that's actually true. Cinema admissions have been on the rise for the past decade, which funnily enough co-incides with the prolification of pirated movies! So, if it damages the admits - why are they getting better?

Take Spiderman 2 for example - available on pirate 2 weeks before the US release. What type of people bought the pirate DVDs? You can place them into two group:-

Group 1: Can't wait to see the film fanboys - they want to see it first, and will then pay to see it on the BIG screen anyway
Group 2: Never go the pictures, and not likely to ever go in the future - lots of these people exist. Nothing will convince them to ever go the cinema, it just isn't their scene.

So, out of those group, how many admissions would have been lost? I count none.

The same is true for TV shows being downloaded (a similar arguement). Last year, Battlestar Galactica was shown in the UK months before the US and became the hottest downloaded TV show ever. Then, when it finally aired, it was expected (thanks to the downloads) to flop - instead it became a huge success, and the best rated new show on Sci Fi channel EVER!

Strangely enough it seems that piracy sometimes helps an industry. If someone watches a dodgy copy of a new film, and likes it, they may then choose to go see it in full glory, whereas they may have given it a miss before.

A strange arguement, and bear in mind I do not condone piracy.

"I have read that we will soon be able to buy a music cd from the shops for only £6.99, this is because there will be no info booklet inside.
SO WHAT!, give me the cheaper option any day and while they're at it, give us the choice to buy DVD's without all the added features and the info booklet. Then they could sell them at the sort of price that would put the bootleg traders out of action.

For me, i have just received 6 films for £20 and all but one have been perfect!
PS. I think that HERO is over-rated!"

I always prefere the genuine CD over a copy - but that's because I enjoy music - some poor, watery-sounding 128Kbps MP3 file from the net sounds awful, IMO. I like looking at the album covers etc, as well.

P.S: It was dross.

Originally posted by peter41
:o :o :o who told u such lies, lies all lies :P
You told me on msn :D

Originally posted by robbie
I got it illegally. Listenig to it has persuaded me to mend my ways. therefore I have contacted my collegues at south yorkshire police. you are going to get a visit from a couple of boys in blue peter :D

John Noakes? Pete Purves?

Gimme Caron Keating or Anthea Turner any day :P

Blue Peter?! Geddit? :P

As I see it re: The Film & Music Industry and Copyright Infringement... For decades they've had us, the buying public, exactly where they wanted us... Without the option of paying other than excessive prices for their wares if we wished to buy records, CD's or films, providing them with massive profits in the process.

Now... With the use of readily-available modern technology, we have them by the short and painful bits instead... And the louder they squeal as they see their lucrative monopoly threatened, the more I enjoy their pain.

long tread this one phew so many words to read :rolleyes:

IM not a terrorist only when playing Counter-strike.

I download alot only for personel never made any money selling DVDs and I know some of the peaple who put the films on the internet and they are not terrorists either.They see it as a competion for the first person to get a film on the Net not to plant a bomb on a train. There is alot of organized crime with pirateing DVDs but they get it from the same source as eveybody else(cam,ts,tc,screener,dvdrip).
You will find that its the PORN side of DVDs where the big pirates are and terrorist funding...

BTW UDM has been cracked now films are available on the net aswell..

As for the games its getting a bit harder now to install a cracked game I dont think your average user will get it goin on summ of the games downloaded to try before i buy you have to disconnect your cd and dvd drive just to get the No cd fix to work now..

As for the Qaulity of the films it depends on the group who put it on the internet.A copy that is on the Net within 3hrs of showin are normally crap wait a week or so you get a TC 6weeks you get a screener and while ive been typing this ive just found the Retail DVD of a film that starts showing here on friday..

You pay your ISP so everything else on the net is free

:thumbsup:

although i personally dont agree with piracy i do have a little experience with copied dvds.
we actually obtained advanced copies of movies via staff @ a well known film retailer.
they occasionally did a bit of black whiite during the film & popped a caption up @ the bottom,but that was no more annoying than someone going to the bathroom i would imagine.

not everyone's a "criminal" or dug dealer.