What does everyone think about the proposed Murder Sentence changes?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3671752.stm

"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime". :lol: :lol:

English really is the funniest of languages, eg:

5. life imprisonment (92%)
Punishment of a criminal by imprisonment for the rest of his life. The only crime that always carries a sentence of life imprisonment is murder, but there are many crimes (e.g. arson, manslaughter, wounding with intent, and rape) that carry a maximum ...
(From A Dictionary of Law in Law)


Now THAT seems to sum it up rather well!. So where does all this 15/ 13/10 years come into it?.
If the law is going to carry on giving these 'light' sentences to murderers, then maybe they should rename 'Life' as something like 'Quite a long sentence'!!!

My view is that if a judge sentences someone to spend the rest of their life behind bars, it is ridiculous for them to go on to recommend that the criminal serve a minimum of 15 years in prison. If someone commits an offence that carries a life sentence then they should get a life sentence. On Newsnight a while back there was an interview with someone in the studio who was from the IRA or Sinn Fein and the presenter introduced the man as someone who had served a life sentence for murder. Surely if he had completed a life sentence then he would be dead wouldn't he???

Life seems to be getting cheaper with softer sentences being handed out.
When they say 15 years it doesn't mean that they will serve 15.

I don't think that there is going to be any real change in sentencing as we can already see that criminals serving "life" are already back on the streets after as little as 7 years for good behaviour and after having a mental evaluation that says that they are cured.

We only have to look at the number of convicted murderers that have been let out that kill again within a few months to see that the judicial system is a joke.

Take for instance sentencing in the 1950/60's.....The great train robbery where sentences of up to 25 years were given and most of the members of the gang served the full term.

If you robbed a post office today you would probably get 2 years with early parole for good behaviour.
Makes me sick to the stomach

But if you murder someone with a car, you can get anything between 3-5 years or a big fine and 12 points!

Originally posted by alchresearch
But if you murder someone with a car, you can get anything between 3-5 years or a big fine and 12 points!

Less if you happen to be an immigrant!......Helps here if you can't speak english or are ignorant.

We seem to be going down the road of! well I killed someone...He deserved it...please let me go attitude.

It's not the criminals I am worried about..it's the victims!

At present the criminals have the right to appeal and get compensation from victims that have tried to stop them in their quest to rob or maim.

The poor victim gets no support..besides the "ÿou have been a victim of a crime" notice.

Does crime pay???? YES IT DOES!!!!!!

They can get money as a victim of crime thats why there is 'Victim Support' back in 2001 my family had a major tragedy and i recieved a handout and so did my younger members.

One thing that you can all look forward to is that if you do kill someone you can get 7 years free board and lodgings with 3 meals a day and all the comforts of home...less going out...of course but you can still get your nookie when the wife visits now and then...

you can also do a bit of work that you get paid for and enjoy weekend visits to the family..

Originally posted by DerekH
...less going out...of course

Unless of course you fancy buying a lottery ticket or two.

Originally posted by DerekH
One thing that you can all look forward to is that if you do kill someone you can get 7 years free board and lodgings with 3 meals a day and all the comforts of home...less going out...of course but you can still get your nookie when the wife visits now and then...

you can also do a bit of work that you get paid for and enjoy weekend visits to the family..

I know this is slightly off topic but...Prison is not as you've outlined above - not 'great lodgings'...you should take a look at some of the reports about prisons and conditions - many (most?) are s***t-holes (wanted to write that out in full - but presume I can't - this isnt swearing cos its true!). People who think living (if you can call it that) in prison is great should try it just for a weekend and then realise how bloody awful it is. OK you may say that prison shouldnt be a comfortable experience...and I agree...but if society is putting people in prison as punishment AND in the hope they do not re-offend...treating people crap and making them even more alienated from society - it just won't work and generally doesn't. Doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be giving longer sentences for some crimes...maybe the threat of potential/possible punishment (ie if caught) may put some people off commiting in the first place?

This isn't from my own experience by the way!

Originally posted by threecolours
I know this is slightly off topic but...Prison is not as you've outlined above - not 'great lodgings'...you should take a look at some of the reports about prisons and conditions - many (most?) are s***t-holes (wanted to write that out in full - but presume I can't - this isnt swearing cos its true!). People who think living (if you can call it that) in prison is great should try it just for a weekend and then realise how bloody awful it is. OK you may say that prison shouldnt be a comfortable experience...and I agree...but if society is putting people in prison as punishment AND in the hope they do not re-offend...treating people crap and making them even more alienated from society - it just won't work and generally doesn't. Doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be giving longer sentences for some crimes...maybe the threat of potential/possible punishment (ie if caught) may put some people off commiting in the first place?

This isn't from my own experience by the way!

Actually, I have done a lot of work in the different prisons ie, Wakefield, Whitemoor, Lindhome, Thorn Y.O. Doncaster etc' and found the conditions there were better than in any old age home.
THey have instant access to medical and dental treatment, The food is on par with that of a resturaunt and the cells are cosy with Tv etc.

Treating prisoners like crap is what they need...with discipline!..the problem these days is that they are handled with kid gloves.


My opinion is that anyone committing a crime that deserves incarceration should be stripped of their human rights and put into a prison that has no comforts and make them work for the community either cleaning up or hard labour for the duration of their sentences.

This would possibly stop the re-offending of career criminals and send a message that prison is not a nice place to be as it is at the moment.

Originally posted by DerekH

THey have instant access to medical and dental treatment,
This is virtually true
Originally posted by DerekH

The food is on par with that of a resturaunt

this is most definately not true.

Originally posted by spook
This is virtually true

this is most definately not true.

Depends. MacDonalds call themselves a restaurant.

Originally posted by DerekH

Treating prisoners like crap is what they need...with discipline!..the problem these days is that they are handled with kid gloves.

My opinion is that anyone committing a crime that deserves incarceration should be stripped of their human rights and put into a prison that has no comforts and make them work for the community either cleaning up or hard labour for the duration of their sentences.


I think we're gonna have to agree to differ on this one! Stripping someone of their human rights...hard labour....you're going way too extreme there. I don't want to pay taxes to support some stalinist approach to 'criminal reform'...It sounds like you're after something like the gulags (or in that direction slightly)? Yes - some people do commit awful crimes but I don't see why society has to stoop to their level in how we punish them. And I'm assuming you wouldn't treat anyone committing any crime in such a harsh way...where would the line be drawn I wonder..or if you're proposing some a harsh regime..why don't you just bring back the death penalty? (and no I don't agree with that approach either!)

Originally posted by threecolours
I think we're gonna have to agree to differ on this one! Stripping someone of their human rights...hard labour....you're going way too extreme there. I don't want to pay taxes to support some stalinist approach to 'criminal reform'...It sounds like you're after something like the gulags (or in that direction slightly)? Yes - some people do commit awful crimes but I don't see why society has to stoop to their level in how we punish them. And I'm assuming you wouldn't treat anyone committing any crime in such a harsh way...where would the line be drawn I wonder..or if you're proposing some a harsh regime..why don't you just bring back the death penalty? (and no I don't agree with that approach either!)

you have to admit though...places like Singapore where the Death penalty is used for almost anything.....the crime is almost none existant.

What is needed is a deterant that would scare the living daylights out of anyone thinking about committing a crime.

At present we have nothing to deter a would be criminal.

Three Colours?

This really annoys me when people say prison is not the answer to anything because no one who makes this statement ever tells you what the answer actually is. So what do we do with people who refuse to abide by the laws of the land? Usually not just once or twice, what do you do with someone who constantly refuses to live the same way the majority of people live which is with respect for other people, respect for life & respect for other peoples property?
Do tell me what the answers are I am intrigued to know what we do with these people & don't tell me rehabilitate because its difficult to say the least to rehabilitate people who have never been habilitated.
But please tell me what the alternative to prison is?
Janet Olsen

Originally posted by Janet Olsen
Three Colours?

This really annoys me when people say prison is not the answer to anything because no one who makes this statement ever tells you what the answer actually is. So what do we do with people who refuse to abide by the laws of the land?

But please tell me what the alternative to prison is?
Janet Olsen

I think you'll find Jane that I have not said that prisons should not be used to punish (and rehabilitate/educate) offenders. My point is simply that I do not agree with Derek's view that prisoners should be stripped of their human rights and kept in inhuman conditions..surely that is too extreme (particularly when no distinction has been made about the type of crime people have commited and how they are punished)? And to propose as Derek has 'death penalty is used for almost anything'! He's entitled to his opinion but I don't want to live in an extreme society like that. Yes..have prisons and use them to punish and educate people and protect society but that is different from the overly harsh approach that Derek is proposing. I had hoped my previous postings were clear and did not feel the need to respond..this thread is meant to be about longer sentences not just prison per se. That's my view over with anyway...

Originally posted by threecolours
I think you'll find Jane that I have not said that prisons should not be used to punish (and rehabilitate/educate) offenders. My point is simply that I do not agree with Derek's view that prisoners should be stripped of their human rights and kept in inhuman conditions..surely that is too extreme (particularly when no distinction has been made about the type of crime people have commited and how they are punished)? And to propose as Derek has 'death penalty is used for almost anything'! He's entitled to his opinion but I don't want to live in an extreme society like that. Yes..have prisons and use them to punish and educate people and protect society but that is different from the overly harsh approach that Derek is proposing. I had hoped my previous postings were clear and did not feel the need to respond..this thread is meant to be about longer sentences not just prison per se. That's my view over with anyway...



But it is the current relatively comfortable conditions of prisons that increases the chance of re-offending. If the prison conditions were a lot harsher, not only would prison act as a deterrent, but it would also put the criminals off offending again once they are released. As for the distinction with the type of crime committed, that should be made purely by the length of the sentence, and not the conditions of the prison.

Originally posted by threecolours
I think you'll find Jane that I have not said that prisons should not be used to punish (and rehabilitate/educate) offenders. My point is simply that I do not agree with Derek's view that prisoners should be stripped of their human rights and kept in inhuman conditions..surely that is too extreme (particularly when no distinction has been made about the type of crime people have commited and how they are punished)? And to propose as Derek has 'death penalty is used for almost anything'! He's entitled to his opinion but I don't want to live in an extreme society like that. Yes..have prisons and use them to punish and educate people and protect society but that is different from the overly harsh approach that Derek is proposing. I had hoped my previous postings were clear and did not feel the need to respond..this thread is meant to be about longer sentences not just prison per se. That's my view over with anyway...

Actually all I did was state a fact! Singapore has no crime!.

If there was a deterrant then no one would commit any type of crime.
Is it not extreme to allow people to murder or rape young children where they are allowed short sentences and then be protected by the police when they are let out?

What in your opinion would be the best deterrent to stop murderers and rapists from re offending.
A slap on the bottom maybe?
incarceration in a cushy jail with free B&L for a few years where they can learn new skills from others like themselves?

The soft approach is not the way to go! I bet if you had a family member murdered or sodomised by someone that you would be the first in line to want some justice!
Incedently! if someone murdered your family they would be incarcerated for around 4 years with good behavior and then let out as a free person who has paid for his sins...........Doesnt say much for the lives of the ones they took does it!

Originally posted by t020
If the prison conditions were a lot harsher, not only would prison act as a deterrent, but it would also put the criminals off offending again once they are released.
Nah, it wouldn't. They'd just try harder to not to get caught.

Originally posted by Sidla
Nah, it wouldn't. They'd just try harder to not to get caught.


What nonsense.

Originally posted by DerekH
Actually all I did was state a fact! Singapore has no crime!.

If there was a deterrant then no one would commit any type of crime.
Is it not extreme to allow people to murder or rape young children where they are allowed short sentences and then be protected by the police when they are let out?

What in your opinion would be the best deterrent to stop murderers and rapists from re offending.
A slap on the bottom maybe?
incarceration in a cushy jail with free B&L for a few years where they can learn new skills from others like themselves?

The soft approach is not the way to go! I bet if you had a family member murdered or sodomised by someone that you would be the first in line to want some justice!
Incedently! if someone murderen your family they would be incarcerated for around 4 years with good behavior and then let out as a free person who has paid for his sins...........Doesnt say much for the lives of the ones they took does it!
Would you want to live in fear like that though? To not dare go out in the car in case someone steps out in front of you? Or stay at home every night incase you have one too many at the pub?

Originally posted by t020
What nonsense.
Of course it's not nonsense. A leopard cannot change it's spots. Why do you think the majority of offenders reoffend? I do not believe that they only reoffend to get back into prison, as you seem to be suggesting.

Would you rather be free to do what you want and see your friends and family, or be locked away in a relatively comfortable cell but with no friends and under constant surveillance?

Originally posted by Sidla
Would you want to live in fear like that though? To not dare go out in the car in case someone steps out in front of you? Or stay at home every night incase you have one too many at the pub?

I was talking about murder etc......these are minor incedents that you are talking about and accidents are not covered by being put to death for.

If you look at things logically, the time/sentence should fit the crime.
the only ones that would be living in fear are those that have something to hide

Originally posted by Sidla
Of course it's not nonsense. A leopard cannot change it's spots. Why do you think the majority of offenders reoffend? I do not believe that they only reoffend to get back into prison, as you seem to be suggesting.

Would you rather be free to do what you want and see your friends and family, or be locked away in a relatively comfortable cell but with no friends and under constant surveillance?


That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that "cushy" prison conditions INCREASE the likelihood of the criminal re-offending. Once released from a prison, they should be so relieved to be out that they would never commit again for fear of having to go back inside. Unfortunately at the moment, although they wouldn't like to go back inside when released, they know that if they do go back again it will be relatively comfortable, and hence the risk of being caught does NOT outweight the benefit of any future crime.

Originally posted by DerekH
..
Is it not extreme to allow people to murder or rape young children where they are allowed short sentences and then be protected by the police when they are let out?

What in your opinion would be the best deterrent to stop murderers and rapists from re offending.
A slap on the bottom maybe?
I bet if you had a family member murdered or sodomised by someone that you would be the first in line to want some justice!
Incedently! if someone murdered your family they would be incarcerated for around 4 years with good behavior and then let out as a free person who has paid for his sins...........Doesnt say much for the lives of the ones they took does it!

Well this is turning into a bit of a saga isnt it and I'm not sure everyone is reading posts fully! Can you tell me where I have said lets take a real 'soft' approach to crime? All I taken exception to is the earlier suggestion of removing the human rights of those who commit (certain?) offences and treating them inhumanely - I think this sort of (potentially violent) abuse of another person would possibly make them more violent/aggressive when they are returned to society. I think this is way too extreme. Yes - I think prison can work and no am not suggesting 'slap on the bottom' for rapists! And yes sentences are often given out that are way too short. This is a different issue to the conditions inside prison.

When someone is about to commit some/certain crimes I don't think they are probably even aware of the possible punishment/deterent there may or may not be - they'll just commit.

Incidentally... can I (respectfully) ask Derek that you do not talk about anything which may or may not have happened to family members..and four years is not the routine punishment for murder. I don't intend to keep justifying my opinion - I'm entitled to mine and others are entitled to theirs but I think I'm gonna end up repeating myself! I'll let someone else take over now...

The proposals state that "some murderers could serve less than 10 years in prison ... but only in extraordinary circumstances".

But that is in fact the position as it stands today. The two boys who murdered Jamie Bulger served less than 8 years before being released.

However, I am personally unhappy about these proposals which seem to suggest that guidelines may be relaxed even more.

I think that society should send out a clear message that murder is a uniquely evil crime. In certain cases, the appropriate punishment is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. In other cases, where there may be extenuating circumstances, there may be the possibility of parole, but the 'tariff' for a person over 18 should not normally be less than 25-30 years.

If the circumstances are such to justify a tariff less than that, then the charge itself should really be reduced to manslaughter.

Convicting a person of murder and then giving them a lower sentence than for some other non-fatal crimes, is giving off the wrong message altogether.

Originally posted by threecolours


Incidentally... can I (respectfully) ask Derek that you do not talk about anything which may or may not have happened to family members..and four years is not the routine punishment for murder. I don't intend to keep justifying my opinion - I'm entitled to mine and others are entitled to theirs but I think I'm gonna end up repeating myself! I'll let someone else take over now...

sorry m8 but my wifes sister was murdered back in 1992....The ones responsible were not charged through so called lack of evidence.

As far as you objecting to me mentioning what could happen to anyones family members....it's a fact of life whether you like it or not!
The 4 years I have stated is in effect what is now a possibility.

Fact! Hit and run policeman who hit a woman and daughter then sped away then tried to get his family to say that they were driving was fined 475 pounds...a weeks wages and is still working for the police.

If this kind of sentencing is anything to go by then I do believe that a free licence to kill has been allowed