Just looking at the CHAV SCUM website re Britains new ruling peasant underclass. I was just trying to remember when this all really started to come to the public attention re this so called peasant underclass. Is it really the "new" underclass? Have we not always had an underclass in english society?

Trying to think back say 25 years to around 1980.....no such thing as burberry clad kids on street corners with baseball caps.....no souped up Vauxhall novas.......no tracked suit bottom clad women with hair scraped back into a pony tail with huge ear- rings? If Sheffield had a "chav" underclass in the past, what did they look like? 25 years ago in Sheffield we had major unemployment here, possibly more than 2004 in fact (?), and can we associate being unemployed with this so called chav culture?

I can remember there were lots of skin-heads around in early 80's, but would we call them a peasant underclass? I remember them well as they were generally associated with anti-social behaviour, especially against anyone with long hair. Lost count of the times I got chased thro the Peace Gardens by skin-heads in 1980/81 on a Friday night. But as such anti-social citizens, would we now class these 1980/81 skin-heads (just using these as an example here, nothing personal) as 'chavs' in the light of the modern meaning of the term?

Some thoughts on this welcome......are 'chavs' in Sheffield a new phenomena or in fact, have they grown out of a previous incarnation of a different style of 'chavs'.

If a guy had long hair in the 80s wouldn't he be also labeled as a 'chav'. I remember back then long hair associated you with hells angels and anti-social behaviour.

Don't know about everyone else but the whole chav thing is getting a bit tedious.
Ok there are people that wear shell suits, sovs, white trainers and are generally socially inept but it s been done...isn't there anything else you can talk about??

The chav thing is about people having to have someone to feel superior too.

I think the 40-somethings in combat gear and trainers in Cole Brothers are much more amusing.

Originally posted by suzieq
If a guy had long hair in the 80s wouldn't he be also labeled as a 'chav'. I remember back then long hair associated you with hells angels and anti-social behaviour.

er I DONT THINK SO actually. Long hair spelled peace loving former hippies around 25 years ago....you are speaking more of the early to mid 60's there.

Originally posted by wibbles
Don't know about everyone else but the whole chav thing is getting a bit tedious.
Ok there are people that wear shell suits, sovs, white trainers and are generally socially inept but it s been done...isn't there anything else you can talk about??

go join another thread then if you dont want to contribute anything useful....

25 years ago in Sheffield we had major unemployment here, possibly more than 2004

got to disagree..i don't think there is an unemployment problem today....i had a rough time between 81 and 83 but today i think the only people unemployed are idle people who don't want work....obviously there are exceptions but its nothing like the early 80's,i remember going for an interview at bernard road bin place there were 2 jobs up for grabs and about 300 people turned up.

But in the 80's wasn't it the style to wear Gino Capelli, and Lacoste or Leshark?

I also remember plenty of jazzed-up Novas, Fiestas and Minis & Metros.

Originally posted by nick2
The chav thing is about people having to have someone to feel superior too.

I think the 40-somethings in combat gear and trainers in Cole Brothers are much more amusing.


Well, whether you do or not, at least the 40 somethings in combat gear and trainers in "Cole Brothers" (John Lewis) won't run around town mugging old ladies, drive at 50mph in 30 zones (usually without insurance or even their own car), make certain places no-go areas, etc etc. The reason "chavs" are looked down upon is not particularly because of their class or status in society, but more because of their behaviour and the reputation they create for themselves.

Originally posted by t020
Well, whether you do or not, at least the 40 somethings in combat gear and trainers in "Cole Brothers" (John Lewis) won't run around town mugging old ladies, drive at 50mph in 30 zones (usually without insurance or even their own car), make certain places no-go areas, etc etc. The reason "chavs" are looked down upon is not particularly because of their class or status in society, but more because of their behaviour and the reputation they create for themselves.
I'd tend to agree with you there t020.
It's more about how they interact with society as a whole.
I'd go as far as to say the modern day Chav is like a decendent from the MODS of late 70s early 80s era.
Except mods were a little more well behaved in social situations, when they got together they ran riot (Brighton for example), usually against the 'Rockers' but still anti social to the core.

Where as today's Chavs are just anti social period. Whether with their fellow chavs or on their own, they're just a menace and need squashing.

I found this rant to be quite amusing...

http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/funny/2004/08aug/barry130.shtml

Nomme

I can remember in the early 80's when Pringle jumpers were all the rage. This was the start of the fashion for high class sports clothing.

Originally posted by nomme
I found this rant to be quite amusing...

http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/funny/2004/08aug/barry130.shtml

Nomme


:lol: I agree with his conclusion too.

Originally posted by t020
Well, whether you do or not, at least the 40 somethings in combat gear and trainers in "Cole Brothers" (John Lewis) won't run around town mugging old ladies, drive at 50mph in 30 zones (usually without insurance or even their own car), make certain places no-go areas, etc etc. The reason "chavs" are looked down upon is not particularly because of their class or status in society, but more because of their behaviour and the reputation they create for themselves.

Your so Ecclesall Road, do you sit and read the paper in that naff Italian coffe shop on a Sunday morning ?

Originally posted by nick2
Your so Ecclesall Road, do you sit and read the paper in that naff Italian coffe shop on a Sunday morning ?

No I'm "so Ecclesall" actually, a few miles up from said coffee shop. Care to add something a little more constructive to the debate though?

Originally posted by t020
No I'm "so Ecclesall" actually, a few miles up from said coffee shop. Care to add something a little more constructive to the debate though?

Not realy.

Originally posted by nick2
Not realy.

Don't be silly t020!!!! Debate??? They've not covered that on the Trisha show yet! :-)

I'm guessing Nick is referring to Nonnas? That over-priced hang out where the stuck-up like to drink coffee and pose? A slight upgrade from Champs down the road where aristochavs can sit in the windows and attempt to be noticed. :rolleyes:

Didn't quite see what t020 did wrong to warrant a cheap shot by Nick but what can ya do. :rolleyes:

Great find by Nomme by the way. Very satisfying read. :lol:

"aristochavs"

what a great word, and so appropriate.

I can't take the credit for it Nick. I got it off this forum from someone whose name escapes me. Sorry. :rolleyes:

Tis a good noun though. :D

It's perfect for Champs.

Originally posted by Pauly
I'm guessing Nick is referring to Nonnas? That over-priced hang out where the stuck-up like to drink coffee and pose? A slight upgrade from Champs down the road where aristochavs can sit in the windows and attempt to be noticed. :rolleyes:

Did someone mention 'Nonnas'??? ;) I'm not stuck up... i get dragged along :roll: :lol:

Are 'chavs' being chavs for the sake of being what others would view as antisocial - or is it the case that they don't know any better. Wearing Burberry is (was) fashionable so they're just trying to be like everyone else - celebrities, well-off people. Maybe they're trying too hard to fit in and haven't got the education or opportunities. It must be to do with status, trying to be noticed but trying to fit in.
I don't know really, I'm just thinking people that people are a product of their surroundings and we can't blame them entirely for that...

Originally posted by christine
I'm just thinking people that people are a product of their surroundings and we can't blame them entirely for that...

People don't have to follow like sheep if they don't want to though. They can make their own decisions and not follow the idiots.

Originally posted by Pauly
People don't have to follow like sheep if they don't want to though. They can make their own decisions and not follow the idiots.

CHAVS have no brains...it appears to be an official fact. If you try to engage one in conversation they stare at you open mouthed and look at the ground, trying to find the will to utter a few words. I proved thois myself only today when I decided to address a group of 5 "chavs" clad in reversed baseball caps and the most appalling dirty sports attire and naff jewellery. I asked " has anyone got the right time please", to be met with 15 seconds of just blankness, followed by them all looking at each other, shifting about awkwardly and putting their hands in their pockets. After 10 further seconds of fixing them all with hard stare, one of them tried to utter what sounded like an expletive, only spelt wrong, and another one managed to utter two audible words "dun no". I walked off laughing.......

But the desire now is to FIT IN with the mainstream ,and that is what, unfortunately for society, is the case. Anyone growing up HAS to conform, or else accept the consequences, attend school, get an education, learn to speak English correctly, develop a distinct clothing style which is not Burberry and sports wear, get a job, get a house, get a respectable exitence......no no, most people just take the EASY route......lets be the same as the everyone around here on our crappy council estate and be a clone.

Goldenfleece, your Chav thread interests me. Regarding whether Britain has always had an "underclass"; look back to Victorian times and ideas about the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor. The latter were seen as feckless, improvident, savage and parasitical.
Re the term "Underclass"; this is a sociological term which has become common parlance. Ralf Dahrendorf originally coined the phrase in the early 80's, when he suggested that a sub-class had emerged , due to structural causes [for example, unemployment, deregulation, neo-liberal policies etc]. In other words, he said that this class is not to blame for its own poverty. Conversely, Charles Murray [an American sociologist] uses the term "Underclass" [interchangeably with "The New Rabble"] to refer to a sub-class of , if you like, undeserving "chavs", who are impervious to social policies, have created a "dependency culture", do not value education, commit most of the "street" crime and benefit fraud, are more likely to have illegitimate children, and do not subscribe to mainstream "civilised" values and norms [i.e, they have little concept of acceptable social behaviour, and are likely to play The Prodigy cds at full volume at 3 in the morning when you are trying to sleep etc]. They are said to represent a transient population, being moved from council house to council house, regarded/ stigmatised as "problem families", and gaining no community -feeling in the process. In other words, Murray is saying that these "chavs" ARE responsible for their own poverty, that they choose to live on welfare benefits and "the black economy" etc. This, then is a situation due to cultural causes- "chavs" are quite happy with a semi-criminal, semi-dependant lifestyle. Both Murray and Dahrendorf link the "Underclass" to unemployment, but the latter is sympathetic, and the former highly critical. Murray, and I concur with him, makes no excuses for anti-social behaviour, suggesting that the "New Rabble" are responsible for their own loutish, oafish behaviour. He suggests that agency [short-hand for free-will] is the cause here, not structure [ short -hand for external social forces and excuses].
We have always had our share of oafs, unemployable louts, ne'er-do-wells, cut-purses and chavs. They take different forms in different ages. I honestly think, however, that our present , delightful specimens can be, at least in part traced back to the meddling and interfering Mrs Shirley Williams' attempt to wreck the British Education system in the 60's. As I've said on the recent Burngreave thread, a good and generally fair system was replaced by huge, sprawling schools with little control over the teachers, let alone the pupils. The philosophy appeared to be "All Shall Win Prizes". The outcome was that British schoolchildren of the comprehensive system emerged the finest makers of plasticine worms in the known world. Perhaps, also, some blame must be laid at the door of left-wing teachers, social workers etc [I speak as a lecturer in H.E], who have always made excuses for the vile behaviour of chavs- sublimely fatuous ideas such as "postmodernism", "multiculturalism" and, worst of all, "cultural relativism" spring to mind.
Chavs know why they behave the way they do. It is because, as Alex the Droog makes clear in Anthony Burgess's "A Clockwork Orange", they , "like doing it". What is the cure? Education? Who is willing to stump up the huge amount of cash necessary to inculcate good manners and civility, to turn the tide of patronising, dangerous cultural-relativity [so often used as an excuse for feral "chavish" behaviour] in Blair's New Britain? For my own part I advocate a eugenic solution, but I fear it would not go down terribly well in Hampstead or Islington. You see, Goldenfleece, uncaged Calibans I refer to are the descendants of the Victorian "undeserving poor". They are FAR more dangerous than their ancestors, however, due to their greater mobility [their Oafmobiles] and communication systems [their mobile telephones]. How do we, gentle web-surfers, "the beautiful people", protect ourselves? Short of emigrating, the future probably does lie in dreadful, gated communities. However, the moment a semi-articulate "chav" dares to emerge from their philosophical hole, to claim that they, "never 'ad nuffin'", or that "society is to blame", it is our sacred duty to knock them straight back.
By the way, the contributor who mocked TO20 for being "so Ecclesall" sounds very, very chippy. Almost "Chavish"...

Interesting post timo. Any chance of a condensed version?!

Originally posted by timo
By the way, the contributor who mocked TO20 for being "so Ecclesall" sounds very, very chippy. Almost "Chavish"...

Ouch, the ultimate putdown, I'm hurt.
But do I care what you think, DIF.

I started to read your post, but lost interest.
Perhaps you could send it in to the Telegraph ?

Enjoyed your post Timo!
I think you pose the ultimate question regarding chavs; what do we actually do with them?
I first read Murray in the mid eighties and I suppose naively, I presumed 'the underclass' would be swept away by some other socio-political change...wrong!
Remember Thatcher refering to striking miners as 'the enemy within'? well, today here in 21st century post-industrial Britain, we live side by side with 'the enemy'...a force that, if unopposed will debase and destroy everything that means anything to anyone with a shred of credibility, decency and morals.
The underclass are powerful, resourceful and determined to avoid any form of civil order.
Gated communities...security guards checking passes to let the residents come and go - leaving huge tracts of housing prey to Mr Chav...is this the only way to go?

Absolutely excellant post just above on the so labelled underclass element in our society. The comprehensive education system may indeed have been a primary cuase in the recent social infestation of these worthless rodents we term chavs.

I was watching THAT'LL TEACH EM last night, when modern kids experience the 1964 education system, and also saw the previous series when modern kids went to a 50's style education system, the pre comprehensive era. Certainly education must be the main cause of the decay in our society.

I also think the abolition of corporal punishment in schools, whenever it was in the mid 70's, has further eroded the disciplinary power of education over the wilful 'chav.' I was part of the education system that canned and slippered the wilful chav, and put them firmly in their place. I cant think of a single time that happened to anyone in our school where that did not seriously bring them to a point of attitude change and acceptance of social norms and values.

What happens to kids now if they misbehave? The teachers are so scared they cant do anything as they will be done for assault. That is why teenagers are the way they are, they are the product of a parent community who were the first generation to get away with anti-social activities at school....and have simply passed on the values, or rather, the lack of values.


The answer is quite clear to me, to eliminate the next strand of developing CHAVS for the future we re-introduce a punishment system in schools and give schools the legal right to exercise whatever discipline they deem appropriate, as in the pre mid 70's rules. National service was hated, but it certainly brought home some discipline and social values for the teenagers of the 50's.
And law and order has become something of a joke..the police constable commanded far more respect from youth a few decades ago. Now they are taunted and derided everywhere they go...

..I think Police powers should be greatly extended to deal with these muppets on the streets, and give them a lesson they will learn for the rest of their miserable lives.

To Herbaliser, thankyou for your kind words. In a nutshell, I concur with Murray re cultural rather than structural causes of the "underclass", and see comprehensive schooling [which I experienced], and the emergence of postmodernism and cultural relativism as important variables in any discussion about the inexorable rise in chavdom. The chavs have agency [free will], and choose to do what they do. However, the adoption of spurious, postmodern, relativistic positions by teachers, lecturers, social workers etc make it easier for the chavs to thrive. In postmodern terms, there is no absolute, intrinsic truth and we live within a universe of relativism, held together by ephemeral confidences. This has obvious political and moral implications; if there is no "truth", how can we decide what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Hence, excuse after excuse for dear little chavs.
To Nick 2, I was only teasing you in the spirit of good-natured persiflage. Oh, and by the way, I DO read the Telegraph. I also read Salisbury Review and Right Now. What a naughty boy, eh?
To Mullet, glad you liked it. Re the future, well I hope that gated communities are not the only hope. However, as I said, it will take a long, long time [and a lot of money spent on education] to reverse the tide of political correctness, relativism etc which makes it hard to deal with chavs. In Blair's New Britain, there are few role models to inspire youth in particular. The broadcasting media is awash with talentless, vulgar types like the slack-jawed cloddess, Sarah Cox, the moronic Big Brother contestants, and BBC programmes for "kids" seem like exercises in "celebrating diversity", where every culture but that of the English is celebrated. As I suggested, there may be a eugenic solution to chavs, but it would prove unpopular in Hampstead. Perhaps the introduction of American-style Workfare might bring some positive results in forcing the feckless, improvident Underclass back into the job market. However, Mullet, you must remember that they lack the will to please.

"However, the adoption of spurious, postmodern, relativistic positions by teachers, lecturers, social workers etc make it easier for the chavs to thrive. In postmodern terms, there is no absolute, intrinsic truth and we live within a universe of relativism, held together by ephemeral confidences."

a. What ?
b. Do you make this up yourself ?

Now, now Nick! There's no need for sarcasm just because you don't understand what the big boys and girls are talking about. I thought you didn't care what I think, anyway! I couldn't resist teasing you because , with your references to the Telegraph, and your suggestions that my posting is boring and baffling you do sound rather defensive and incurious. These, I am afraid, are classic chav traits. By the way, what does "Dif" mean? Try as I might, I cannot find it in the Oxford Dictionary. Is it a chav phrase of approval or disapproval? My colleague informs me that it sounds a little like a fragment of the click-language of the Kalahari Bushmen. Aside from your jokes [which I enjoy], what do you really think, Nick? Are contributors like myself and Goldenfleece too harsh in our views? You haven't really shared yours with us, yet. Go on, I would be genuinely interested...

I have been reading, and will continue to read the thread and am intrigued to what has anything to respond with with out the tongue clicking.
Without using words he doesnt really know what they mean.

I thought he said he didnt care?

Please respond Nick

Timo, I think you express yourself clearly and very eloquently and I have no difficulty comprehending your posts. However, I must comment that the majority of forum users may not be used to reading quite so articulate postings which contain such a well-balanced and educated mastery of the wonderful English language.

There are too many examples of quite frankly, semi-illiterate and disjointed proclaimations and comments on this forum, so it is a pleasure to converse with persons who do choose to explore the amazing diversity of the English language at our disposal.

Perhaps some of of the forum users might consider the use of a dictionary rather than resort to "did you make that up" accusations. We must take into account that our native language contains a quite fantastic number of words, and it is refreshing to hear such lesser used expressions combined with such good analytical skills.

Originally posted by goldenfleece
proclaimations ...... "did you make that up"

Oh, the irony. :D

Sorry, as a pedant, I just couldn't resist.

I don't agree that these so-called chavs are some sort of underclass. I live in an area which is heavily affected by this, there is supposed to be a curfew at 9pm for anyone under 16 yet the police have done absolutely nothing to enforce this. There are several areas where it isn't safe for people to go after dark because of these gangs, some of which are in their early to mid 20's. The point is whilst some form of punishment at school would help, too many of these kids have parents who do not give a monkeys where they are or what they are doing, and they are not all confined to one class. If they never receive guidance in what is considered "right and wrong", when they get to adult age themselves and are surrounded by like-minded people then they are not going to change. Some of them do not work, yet drive next to new cars and wear brand name clothing, how is this possible if they are the "underclass"?

Bless you, Goldenfleece! How very kind of you to say such nice things. Your postings are well-written, wise and always worth reading too.

Originally posted by The_Maggot
Some of them do not work, yet drive next to new cars and wear brand name clothing, how is this possible if they are the "underclass"?


Hmm let's think.... benefit fraud, theft, having several children to up the tax credits, drug dealing, etc etc. Definitely the "underclass" in that they take more from society than what they give.

Originally posted by t020
[snip]... in that they take more from society than what they give.

You been taking English lessons from Ernie Wise?

Nomme

"Hmm let's think.... benefit fraud, theft, having several children to up the tax credits, drug dealing, etc etc. Definitely the "underclass" in that they take more from society than what they give."

Some, but not all. What I mean is that they do not all come from deprived families

Maggot, you make some cogent points here. Maybe Murray's theory contains deficits in the sense that he does not account for the same anti-social attitudes occuring within lower-middle, and maybe middle class enclaves. Pierre Bourdieau, a French thinker, talks about the "Philistine middle classes", in other words, people who are economically middle class [by virtue of the job they do], but yet culturally different. For example, the parents may work in the Service sector in white collar, middle class occupations, but yet subscribe to none of the traditional, middle class values and norms [i.e, they may not possess much cultural capital, or knowledge of the arts, middle class speech patterns etc]. Their children, whilst enjoying the material privileges their parents' economic status provides, possess little cultural capital, and are more likely to ape the anti-social behaviour of the lower classes. Maybe Bourdieau's theory applies to the people you describe, Maggot? I don't know for definate, Remember, social theories should never be regarded as 100% accurate. I tend to see them as "sensitizing devices", or ways of making intelligent guesses about the world rather than absolute, unitary explanations. You are absolutely right to use this example, and I think it is a good one to ponder.

Originally posted by timo
...However, the adoption of spurious, postmodern, relativistic positions by teachers, lecturers, social workers etc make it easier for the chavs to thrive. In postmodern terms, there is no absolute, intrinsic truth and we live within a universe of relativism, held together by ephemeral confidences...

I couldn't possibly fail to disagree with you less...

Chav-tastic mate :D

Essentially, the term arises from the inability to group these people into any other 'class'. They certainly aren't working class, neither are they upper class. Perhaps they are becoming the 'overclass'...
Semantics...they are dross!

Originally posted by Dolouz
I have been reading, and will continue to read the thread and am intrigued to what has anything to respond with with out the tongue clicking.
Without using words he doesnt really know what they mean.

I thought he said he didnt care?

Please respond Nick

So am I the only person who doesn't understand :

"However, the adoption of spurious, postmodern, relativistic positions by teachers, lecturers, social workers etc make it easier for the chavs to thrive. In postmodern terms, there is no absolute, intrinsic truth and we live within a universe of relativism, held together by ephemeral confidences."

perhaps I am realy thick ?

Interesting thread...but why do I get the feeling that some contributors appear to have been trained at the Chris Eubank school of articulate inarticulation.

Nick, I am sure that you are not even remotely "thick". Very few human beings are. As you are honest enough to say that you don't understand, I will explain [hopefully more clearly]. Postmodernism, without giving you a lecture, is a philosophy associated with [predominantly French] intellectuals like the late J.F.Lyotard. Lyotard suggested in "The Postmodern Condition", 1984, that there is no such thing as "truth". There are only versions of the truth, i.e, there is a "truth" for Nick, and a "truth" for Timo. Truth, therefore, is relative rather than universal or absolute. Of course, there is much more to it than that, but for our purposes here it will suffice as an explanation. When I say that postmodernists believe we live ,"within a universe of relativism held together by ephemeral confidences", I am saying that , according to postmodernists, we live in a world where we can never know THE "truth", only our own version of it, and that we get by, if you like, by relying upon notions that we think MAY be "true", and these notions change over time, hence the phrase,"ephemeral confidences". So, if truth is relative, how can we decide what is "right", and what is "wrong"? To me, it is a spurious philosophy, because a) postmodernists are actually telling us it is TRUE that there is no such thing as truth, and b) even if "reality" is socially-constructed/relative, there may still be a socially-constructed "reality" out there. For example, try playing football on the M1 Motorway, and "reality" will certainly crash into you.
Don't worry if you don't understand it, Nick. All I'm saying is the pretentious load of ******** has been used over the last two decades to excuse anti-social behaviour, in various forms like "cultural relativity", i.e, who are we to judge the behaviour of chavs etc.

Timo,

Interesting take on postmodernism, and to some extent I agree that relativism is not always a useful approach. Have you read 'How mumbo jumbo conquered the world' by Francis Wheen? I suspect that your political persuation won't incline you to pick up a book by Wheen but Ithink you would find it interesting.

However, I think that there is a distinction here which must be made, and that is the difference between truth and fact. To confuse the two is to offer false assertions in support of the spurious theory that postmodernism is to blame for society's ills.

Perhaps we should look more closely at the bizarre climate of individualism/brand loyalty that has been prevalent in the UK since the mid 1980s, funnily enough coinciding with Thatcher's ripping out of the heart of traditional communities.

M

Mattski, it may surprise you but I am familiar with the book. In my honest experience, it is left wing types who are the most likely to have closed minds. They, too often, are the ones who are all in favour of "free speech" as long as they agree with the content. That is not a dig at you. However, I do think that you have slightly misinterpreted my position on postmodernism. It was never part of my case to suggest that postmodernism is solely responsible for societal ills/problems. What I suggest is that the philosophy is one of the most important variables in a cluster of variables, which may include the move towards privatised, home-based lifestyles [little "community spirit"], comprehensive schooling etc. Your ideas too are worthy of consideration.

I’ve found this thread extremely interesting reading. There does, however, seem to be just one voice and one view, repeated with various levels of literary flair. That is, the “chav” = the scum of the British council estate, and the less we see/hear of them the better. I suspect that if only Pitsmoor residents got their cars broken into we’d hear little of it – but as it is, the latte drinkers are targeted whilst they sit outside Nonnas. Car crime, burglary, drug-abuse (related crimes), excessive noise, football hooliganism, robbery etc etc – these are all deplorable crimes, whether the perpetrators are dressed in the Burberry signature plaid, or Marc Jacobs. Crime should not go unpunished; the reasons behind crime should not be ignored.

This country, by its very nature, will always have an underclass element. I am no social policy expert, but street crime is obviously a problem that needs tackling at various levels. Education is key, as perhaps, is increased police presence/power and the cooperation of community leaders and parents. I don’t think we can deny that poverty is a contributing factor, but I disagree with the indication in some posts, that the only other option is to mould our youth by the old fashioned values of the traditional middle classes.

I for one, love living in a city that embraces the positive influences of different times and cultures. I'm a university educated twenty-something from a family-oriented background, who loves many positive “street” influences in youth culture: break-dancing, skateboarding, hip-hop, graffiti art, ironic fashion etc etc. How boring (but safe) would Sheffield be if all 16 year olds dressed in tweed, debated political philosophy and played the violin? I think traditional English culture is important and has its place, but time IS moving on. Disliking Sara Cox is fine, blaming her for crime is laughable – timo, I'm not missing your point, but I do not think diversity and the presence in the media of those from working class backgrounds are bad things. Celebrating diversity is NOT condoning bad behaviour. Let’s call a criminal a criminal and not obsess with assigning derogatory terms to people different from ourselves.

Stella, where is this diversity you speak of? break dancing? graffiti?
Personally I don't give a damn what anyone wears (provided it dosen't cause offence) but you'd be hard pushed to find a more clone-like, conformist uniform wearing sheep than Mr or Mrs Chav...
Personally I wish Sheffield did have some tweed-wearing political philosophers...in fact I'd like to see them sat in lectures wearing really formal tweed suits and Burberry baseball caps!
Just leaving crime aside, there is something morally repugnant about fit, healthy young people who society allows to simply wallow in their own ignorance...
Yes I said allows - there have been periods in history when the nature of 'chavism' simply couldn't have existed...
As Timo points out workfare in the United States was an acknowledgement of the damage welfare systems can wreak on any society...
The background you describe Stella, leads me ponder whether you have ever spent any length of time in the company of chavs...I've had dealings with many. I also know many defendants that Timo cites...teachers, social workers et al.
They will provide excuses for the underclass til the cows come home - or until they have to live next door to some!

Stella, you make some fair points here. I can see what you mean regarding the offering of traditional, middle class values as the only viable model. However, I did not claim that the fatuous Sarah Cox is responsible for societal problems and the decline of civility. If you read my posting carefully [no disrespect intended here], you will hopefully see that I offer Cox as an example of the lamentable lack of suitable role models for young people in the broadcasting media today. You may say that I am making value judgements based upon middle class values and norms, and you would be right.

Re "celebrating diversity", I agree it does not have to mean celebrating rubbish. However, in my view it so often translates as an attempt to foist the philosophy of "multiculturalism" on to the public. Census returns tell us that Britain is 94% "white" in terms of ethnic origin and this in itself renders the term "multicultural" as inaccurate when applied to our country. Perhaps it is useful to describe minor surface changes such as the rise in popularity of Indian and Chinese food over traditional fast food such as Fish and chips. Certainly, the discourse which takes place within the inner city areas of certain large English cities can be called "multicultural". However, in the hinterland of market towns where millions still live, a variety of Englishness carries on unabated, despite attempts to eradicate England [EU], and forbid expressions of Englishness. If an audible sigh can sometimes be heard to escape the lips of English people when the phrase "Celebrating diversity" is coined, can you really blame them? They know that this translates usually as celebrating every culture but their own. After 50 years of systematic evasion and pretence about the effects of mass immigration, even the bigwigs of the race relations industry like Trevor Phillips realise that phrases like "diversity" and "multiculturalism" ring hollow.
Back to Chavs...

Is English culture really in decline though? I mean, obviously it changes and absorbs parts of other culture (like you were saying about Chinese food becoming more popular), but generally our culture has proved very strong. Our language, itself containing numerous non Anglo-Saxon words spans the globe for example; that'll not change now. The USA, the world's only superpower is practically founded on English culture. The whole Indian education system was built around ours. British expats and descendants of the English can be found all over the world. Shakespeare has been translated into hundreds of languages. Can any of us for example name a play written by a Tanzanian or a Serbian? I really don't think we have that much to worry about.

Going back to the "chav" issue, anti social idiots have always existed. I agree that the world would be a better place without them, but the only thing that would sort them out is a draconian law enforcement system (think Stalinist Russia). And eugenics wouldn't be a good idea. Look at the mess the government make of most social projects, and then ask yourself if you'd want them tinkering with your kid's genetic structure. You'd wind up giving birth to a monstrously expensive, inefficient civil servant.

Timo, allow me to asseverate my gratitude re your lettered if rather garrulous – indeed pleonastic – submissions;

- we’ll start again, shall we?

I agreed with many of the points contained in your posts, but – like Herbaliser and nick2 – found them hard work in the translation. I think that the point they were intending to make is that the posts were needlessly wordy: three extravagant sentences were presented where one concise one would have been sufficient. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t trying to be intellectually superior (in spite of a misguided Shakespearean reference and comments such as “To Nick2I was only teasing you in the spirit of good-natured persiflage”, and “Now, now Nick! There's no need for sarcasm just because you don't understand what the big boys and girls are talking about”), but the tone seemed far more fitting for a post-grad thesis than a forum post, with it’s un-necessary references to published works (for example “Murray and Dahrendorf link the "Underclass" to unemployment, but the latter is sympathetic, and the former highly critical. Murray, and I concur with him…” etc.

Goldenfleece’s commented that: “Perhaps some of the forum users might consider the use of a dictionary rather than resort to "did you make that up" accusations. We must take into account that our native language contains a quite fantastic number of words…” Well, ok Goldenfleece, perhaps the “did you make that up” was a knee-jerk response, but if every forum post demanded thirty second time-outs to consult the Oxford English Dictionary for the average forum contributor, and if every sentence used in their construction contained such an extravagant use of needlessly obscure and grandiose words, we’d have a very dull, infrequently visited, and rather pompous forum.

I also have problems with the tone, in places. Whilst you sit comfortably adopting an educated, rational rhetoric, you seem to plunge alarmingly easily into snobbish generalisations, labelling the chav’s behavior as “feral”, driving “Oafmobiles”. I myself am comprehensive school educated, but pride myself on not having to put “plasticine worm” -making on my cv.

Your comment that “the moment a semi-articulate "chav" dares to emerge from their philosophical hole, to claim that they, "never 'ad nuffin'", or that "society is to blame", it is our sacred duty to knock them straight back” is disgusting, and sits well with your view that the future lies “in dreadful, gated communities”. I am by no means a woolly liberal, and think capital punishment and a return of the birch, stocks and whipping posts would work wonders with the country, and agree with Goldenfleece’s views over the return of strong school punishment practices, but I think you’re trivialising the issue with such snobbish and crass comments.

Ant, sorry that you find my written style,"needlessly wordy", and some of my comments, "snobbish and crass". That is your opinion. I would like to know why you think the Shakespearean reference ["uncaged Calibans"] is misguided. Secondly, I would like to know why you are so threatened by references to published works? Shall I pretend that I don't know much about the subject of the thread and write in a nasty, gritty, terse style like you? I am only trying to contribute to a debate which interests me. Have I ever claimed to be "intellectually superior"? The reason that I write so disparagingly about comprehensive education is that I was labelled, "not academic" by so-called teachers at a huge hellhole of a school in this city. Now, as a lecturer myself I can fully appreciate the damage wrought by the likes of Mrs Williams. As for the eugenics comment; you seem determined to mistake sardonic humour for spitefulness. Of course I am joking here, I don't wish to stop people breeding!There I was, thinking that I had cultivated a written style in which beautiful, sonorous phrases basked and played in the sun. Silly me, I shall have to start all over again. You are obviously much brighter than I am, and I shall seek your advice in future regarding the finer points of grammatical construction, syntax and concision. Your posting says much more about your insecurities than it does about my undeniable shortcomings. I would extend the hand of friendship to you, but I know from your tone that I would only be rebuffed.

Ant, on reflection, I apologise for my last comment. I've probably had too much to think. We can agree to differ here, and shake hands.

"Ant, sorry that you find my written style,"needlessly wordy", and some of my comments, "snobbish and crass". That is your opinion."

Well spotted.

"I would like to know why you think the Shakespearean reference ["uncaged Calibans"] is misguided."

Because it is a perfect example of you demonstrating your intellectual superiority. It is rather an elitist, pompous comparison used for effect only.

"Secondly, I would like to know why you are so threatened by references to published works?"

I'm not. But I think that you would very much like me to be. People who quote other's works seldom have an original thought in their heads. It's use in your posts is merely to demonstrate how marvellously well-read you now are since your traumatic school days when the teachers thought you an imbecile. See how far you have come?

"Have I ever claimed to be "intellectually superior"?"

No, Timo, you haven't. But the way you rebuff people and your overly verbose ostentatious waffle-ogues do the job for you.

"The reason that I write so disparagingly about comprehensive education is that I was labelled, "not academic" by so-called teachers at a huge hellhole of a school in this city."

So you try to make up for it by demonstrating your post-comprehensive education using big words and a wiser-than-thou attitude? And just because YOU had a poor education in a comprehensive school doesn't mean that the rest of us that had more positive experiences are good for making plasticine worms and little else?

"Now, as a lecturer myself..."

Yes, we know. It's stated in most of your posts. Let the people see how far you have come.

"As for the eugenics comment; you seem determined to mistake sardonic humour for spitefulness. Of course I am joking here, I don't wish to stop people breeding!"

I don't seem "determined" to mistake the two. The point I made was that your comments were crass - not in keeping with the rest of your affected "intellectual" style.

"There I was, thinking that I had cultivated a written style in which beautiful, sonorous phrases basked and played in the sun. Silly me, I shall have to start all over again. You are obviously much brighter than I am, and I shall seek your advice in future regarding the finer points of grammatical construction, syntax and concision."

...And there you go again woefully attempting to demonstrate your intellectual superiority. Unfortunately the actual content of your overly gilded words is just plain sarcasm.

"Your posting says much more about your insecurities than it does about my undeniable shortcomings."

Nah, I just recognise an intellectual bully at fifty paces. And the insecurities are plainly yours. It's called displacement. But you'd know that, and have three references to published works and a Shakespearean quote to back it up with.

Originally posted by timo
Don't worry if you don't understand it, Nick. All I'm saying is the pretentious load of ******** has been used over the last two decades to excuse anti-social behaviour, in various forms like "cultural relativity", i.e, who are we to judge the behaviour of chavs etc.

I'm not worried about it, I've still no idea what you're on about even after you have explained it.

Serves me right for leaving shool at 16 I guess :0)

I was also thinking, would the people who stormed the House of Commons yesterday be considered Chavs ?

Timo,

Just a quick observation on cultural transmission and change. It's interesting that you note the surface change in food preferences from 'traditional' english food towards asian influenced cuisine.

Fish and chips, to use your example, in fact originated amongst the jewish community seeking sanctuary in London in the late 1800s. And look what an emblem of englishness this has become!

M

I get the description of 'chav', but where does the word come from?

Mattski, I didn't know that. Very interesting point re the origin of Fish and chips. I suppose no culture is "pure", even that of the Japanese. I tend to see culture as the sum total of values and norms in any given society, and I acknowledge that these values and norms can change over time. You are right here, Fish and chips is iconically "English".
Ant, how would you like me to write? You call my postings "garrulous", which I've always taken to mean talkative about trivial issues. I've been talking about the thread and related issues. If they are trivial, what are you doing on here? So my use of a Shakespearian metaphor is elitist is it? I think it is you who underestimates the level of intelligence and cultural capital [Bourdieau, 1981- only joking!] of the average contributor. I am sorry if you think me an "intellectual bully". I am certain that if you were to know me outside of cyber space, you would change your view. For the record, I didn't have a "traumatic" schooldays, I just see the school now as a hellhole because of the low standards of teaching, and the labelling process that went on there. The teachers didn't regard me as an "imbecile" [you should apologise for that remark too; it is well over the top], rather they said that I along with many other children were "not academic". Maybe there is a degree of bitterness there, but don't try to dissect me with your blunt tools Ant. I have honestly tried hard to help students from a very wide range of backgrounds with the middling intellectual skills I possess. I am certain that they don't regard me as a "bully", or someone who shows off their cultural attainment at their expense. Your remark along the lines of "see how far you've come", implies that I am some kind of cruel, damaged person who has gained knowledge but no wisdom. It is a stupid remark, and far too personal to be used on the forum. I, and other contributors I am sure, will recognise YOU as the chippy "bully" here. You haven't even the grace to accept my previous apology. Oh, of course, apologies and shaking hands would be elitist and an attempt by me to establish "superiority" over you. Most people on this thread have tended to agree with me. What do they think of your calculated viciousness, I wonder? At least I don't overstep the mark like you. Your postings are quite "afffected" too, you know, with reverse-snobbery. The sad thing is here, we've completely lost the chav thread.

Originally posted by timo
I, and other contributors I am sure, will recognise YOU as the chippy "bully" here.

Absolutely. Ant's avatar is lacking the chip on the shoulder he quite clearly has.

TO20, I know, I know. I thought that Ant might accept my apology at least. Never mind, my Ecclesallian friend, he obviously lacks grace as well as charm. I must have upset him with my remarks about plasticine worms. You know, I don't trust his eyes at all -very shifty, very shifty. Funnily enough, I showed his postings to a Psychologist friend earlier [very elitist, eh?], and he detected a smouldering, deep-rooted misanthropy in Ant's comments. Doubtless Ant will return to delight gentle web-surfers with yet another hilarious attempt at psychological analysis."Displacement" indeed. How my colleague and I laughed and laughed.
Back to Chavs, we've established that they exist, and covered various explanations for their behaviour. Does anybody think that American popular culture plays a part in influencing Chavs? I am thinking along the lines of ideas about instant gratification, the "free individual" etc? Maybe TO20, Mullet, Maggot, Goldenfleece, Mattski and other non-chippy types might care to comment. I would value their views.

Originally posted by scottcross
I get the description of 'chav', but where does the word come from?

"Chav is almost certainly from the Romany word for a child, chavi, recorded from the middle of the nineteenth century. We know it was being used as a term of address to an adult man a little later in the century, but it hasn’t often been recorded in print since and its derivative chav is quite new to most people.

Other terms for the class also have Romany connections; another is charver, Romany for prostitute. Yet another is the deeply insulting pikey, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from turnpike, so a person who travels the roads.

Did chavi die out, only to be reinvented recently? That seems hardly likely from the written and anecdotal evidence; what we’re seeing is a term that has been in active but inconspicuous use for the last 150 years suddenly bursting out into wider popular use in a new sense through circumstances we don’t fully understand."

From worldwidewords.org (http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-cha2.htm)

Originally posted by timo
TO20, I know, I know. I thought that Ant might accept my apology at least. Never mind, my Ecclesallian friend, he obviously lacks grace as well as charm. I must have upset him with my remarks about plasticine worms. You know, I don't trust his eyes at all -very shifty, very shifty. Funnily enough, I showed his postings to a Psychologist friend earlier [very elitist, eh?], and he detected a smouldering, deep-rooted misanthropy in Ant's comments. Doubtless Ant will return to delight gentle web-surfers with yet another hilarious attempt at psychological analysis."Displacement" indeed. How my colleague and I laughed and laughed.
Back to Chavs, we've established that they exist, and covered various explanations for their behaviour. Does anybody think that American popular culture plays a part in influencing Chavs? I am thinking along the lines of ideas about instant gratification, the "free individual" etc? Maybe TO20, Mullet, Maggot, Goldenfleece, Mattski and other non-chippy types might care to comment. I would value their views.

I think you actually discourage people from posting their views on this board.

You do sound quite pompous and patronising, but not in a funny way, like Stephen Fry would.

Nick2, at least I don't accuse other contributors of "making it up" just because I don't understand what they are saying. I did make the effort to explain what I wrote to you, and I did so with respect. If you want to contribute do so, just remember, and this goes for Ant too, if you are just out to score points you will lose every time.

Originally posted by timo
...I am sorry if you think me an "intellectual bully"...

Dude, he wasn't the only one to get that impression. You may change minds if you at least admit that he has a teensy point?

Try a bit of empathy. I suppose that, confronted with your discourse/rant as a reply, you wouldn't find it at all intimidating. Yes, he wasn't exactly Mr Happy about it all, but c'mon, read it through from the other point of view...

Originally posted by timo
The sad thing is here, we've completely lost the chav thread.

That's what threads are for... Has anyone had any comedy chad-induced moments?

Originally posted by timo
If you want to contribute do so, just remember, and this goes for Ant too, if you are just out to score points you will lose every time.

LOL - Ok you win, your the cleverest - happy now.

Steev, maybe I used a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Is it really that "intimidating"? Must be because I'm used to argument in my line of work. Your contribution re chavs was good. I heard the use of "chavis" in the 70s, and it was considered va very old-fashioned phrase then. Seems to have come back with a vengeance recently.

Originally posted by timo
...Is it really that "intimidating"?...

Like I said, empathy. It wasn't particularly intimidating to me, but I can see how it would be...

Originally posted by timo
...Must be because I'm used to argument in my line of work...

Tell me about it. 6 months in Dixons call centre few years back, still carry the scars... **judder**

This snippet on the BBC News website today might be of interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3663916.stm

Steev, I'm not sure that I can think of any comical episodes regarding Chavs, but I can think of one that some might find amusing [in the sense of black humour]. I remember visiting the Meadowell Estate in Newcastle in the mid 90s, and being told of the antics of two particularly problematic families there. The Chavs [ages ranging from 13 up to men in their early 40s] didn't confine themselves to the usual anti-social behaviour and housebreaking, they also specialised in stealing roofs too. Many perfectly decent, law-abiding people on the estate had scrimped and saved for [what middle class folk would probably regard as meagre] holidays, only to become too fearful to leave their houses unattended. The roof robberies, I might add, were all done in broad daylight. The victims were too frightened to invove the police because of reprisals against "grasses". The phrase itself is from prison parlance, I am told.

Had a good comedy moment the other day at Chapeltown train station. 2 chavs -vs- train timetable. Well, erm, you probably had to be there, but it kept me amused...

01101000011001010110110001101100011011110010000001 1001110110010101100101011010110111001100100001
<sarcasm type="heavy">
URGENT CHAV-FLASH!!

Reports are coming in of a fire in Barnsley town centre...

Early indications are that it has caused £5,000,000 worth of improvements...
</sarcasm>

Originally posted by mullet
but you'd be hard pushed to find a more clone-like, conformist uniform wearing sheep than Mr or Mrs Chav...


That is such a good sentence, I'll be sure to use that one down the pub tonight.

Originally posted by mullet
but you'd be hard pushed to find a more clone-like, conformist uniform wearing sheep than Mr or Mrs Chav...


Except perhaps the VonDutch trucker cap, low jeans and Nike dunk wearing gangs you see on West/Division street every weekend.

What, dare I ask, do we call this particular sub-culture, with its Trucker caps etc?

and a hefty first post.

Being a native of sheffield, moving only to study in huddersfield for the past year i feel i have a good view on 'chavs' (i really dont like using that, instead it shall be.. spackers) in both south and west yorkshire.

First of all i will take you back to Parkwood High School (n.e. Herries School) where i first noticed a different type of person, as you all rightly say, tracksuits seem to be the uniform and i also found jewellery to be a large factor, on some people large sovereign rings just don't work, on spackers they do. You blame education for the occurance of spackers and i will agree with that, there was a definate divide at school between the people who wanted to learn and the people who didn't. A look at past exam results will show you which majority ruled at parkwood and it ultimately affected the work of everybody else ( a funny example would be the cone of influence used to explain how Bart brought the class down in the simpsons). It wasn't that they were stupid, i found them to be exemplary(sp?) liars and con artists, sometimes leaving me confused with their complex ramblings. It was a lack of caring towards anything slouching in their seats ignoring and avoiding any kind of work but excelling in P.E. to the point where an almost spacker inclusive football team would play the slightly lesser skilled team. However behind all this was a drive to get out of the education system to aspire to something greater ( a common response to an exasperated teacher being along the lines of the spacker 'comin back an rubbin it in' said teachers faces), maybe success beckoned for the spackers outside of those 4 classroom walls?

In college the spacker community dwindled, as did my interaction with them, however m working environment ( Burger King, Meadowhall : I may have served you!!) was always 'a pleasure'. Indeed the spackers and their mostly overweight and shouty parents made up the largest customer base of our little fast food shop where they were always rude, impatient and amusingly threatening. With me being tall and slightly more muscular tha the average 17 year old at the time i often verbally dealt with angry 15 year old spackers skiving from school and demanding burgers that never came to them quick enough.

At Huddersfield University i rejoiced!! No spackers in my classes or near where i lived (storthes hall for those who know where the hell it is, i now live in moldgreen) however my workplace gave me a unique look at a phenomeneon witnessed on the streets of sheffield, drunk chavs. Livingstones was a veritable watering hole for all kind of people, mostly spackers drunk on cheap vodka and overpriced alcopops. Was this what they strived for? Enough money to drink themselves into a stupor on a friday night? To fight with bouncers and even each other!!( Surely some kind of cannibalism??) Thankfully i left into a higher paid job in Morrisons where i made an unexpected discovery, the spacker workforce unites! Here is what they strived for, working near food and booze, where the opportunities to slack are great and the pay good (£4.85). They save up for their car mods and designer clothes but earn a living crudely stacking shelves. Perhaps this is their destiny, stacking the shelves for us their almightly gods and masters!!

Rejoice!!

I wonder if we can speculate on if such an underclass culture exists in other parts of Europe or the USA? In America, ie places like Detroit, there is a MASSIVE population of gangsta rappers for example. Could we describe this element as part of a social underclass in the USA? And if so, how are they different to the status of an underclass in the UK?

We seem to have distinct definitions of chavs here in the UK
1) The typical English slobby tracksuit bottomed football shirted thug type of chav, probably with baseball cap, cheap gold jewellery and horrendous chav female mate with scraped back hair and hooped ear rings bigger than manhole covers...AND
2) The followes of rap culture Burberry element, often more specifically dressed in hoodies and all that stuff, and who may (or may not) necassarily be on white English origin.

or perhaps there are more variations of this underclass not previously discussed. In the USA I doubt if you get the former definition, as they would no doubt in US expression be deemed "red necks". But then could a red blooded all american male "red neck" be considered part of an underclass in such a society....

Even the nomenclature used on this thread to address the varied forms and strata of chavs highlights the breadth of this discussion.
Goldenfleece, help me on this one: to me the American term 'redneck' implies a broadly right-wing reactionary (usually found in the American southern states?) I can see how some sections of the US underclass could have redneck attributes but I also see intolerant, gun toting conservatives as rednecks...

Yes, different states in the US define "red-necks" differently. I have a cousin in Texas and a Texan red-neck is a real conservative anti-long hair, anti-black, anti-"preppy" student, and thinks all strangers are communists or invaders, etc, definition of a redneck. In other states red-necks are more generally what we might term as "townies" or general trouble-makers.

It may be far more complicated in the USA tha it appears and probably not a lot of use in a discussion re Sheffield chav underclass, come to think of it. I guess most American 'red-necks' would not be an under-class but well-paid truck driver types or something in that sort of generic division of society.

Student Craig,
Very good quality first posting [I'll give you a 2:1], full of amusing and interesting stuff.

Goldenfleece,
Glad to see you back in the debate, erudite as ever. You speculate about the existence of the Underclass in America, mentioning Gangsta Rap. It may interest you to know that Charles Murray [I mentioned him a while before re cultural causes of the Underclass] teamed up with Richard Hernstein in 1994 to write a controversial book about the American Underclass, "The Bell Curve". Murray and Hernstein suggest that the Afro-American community in the USA are a cognitive Underclass because of their lower intelligence as revealed in I.Q tests [their view, and not necessarily mine]. The authors administered the tests to find that the average white I.Q was 100, the average East Asian [Japanese Americans, Chinese and Korean Americans etc] 104, and the average Afro-American score a controversial 85. The authors suggest that the "accurate" tests reveal that Afro-Americans are considerably disadvantaged due to genetically-based, lower levels of intelligence. There isn't the space here to go into arguments for and against the validity of I.Q tests [wouldn't want people like Ant thinking I'm showing off again]. Nor is there the space to consider the implications for race relations. Suffice to say, the "Bell Curve", with its claim that black americans represent a cognitive [in terms of intelligence] Underclass remains a notorious and highly controversial book. It has become a sort of Bible for hereditarians on the political right in the USA. Hope this is useful to you.

As ever Timo - you keep this thread vibrant!
I've made a note to get a copy of 'The Bell Jar' but regarding your earlier point about American culture affecting chavs here; I am occasionally exposed to MTV and the videos shown repeatedly...I feel sure your average chav in the street actually aspires to the gangsta-chic therein...
Digressing slightly, the black rappers on MTV are covered in the most lurid ostentacious jewellrey. The biggest white rapper - Eminem - dresses down: no jewellrey, old sneakers, cheap white t shirt...discuss!

Mullet, I'm not taking the **** here [I value your views, honestly], but don't go asking for "The Bell Jar"- that's a book of poetry by Sylvia Plath. The book is called, "The Bell Curve". I'm not being a clever dick, I just don't want you to get the wrong book!
Re Eminem, yes, you appear to be right here. Perhaps he may be regarded as The Prince of Chavs?

Perhaps the expansion / increased acceptance of post modernist concepts has provided a more general defence against historically and politically imposed top down views of right and wrong. This should have improved the situation for all kinds of minority and or formally repressed social groups.

I suppose the issue might be that this has created a power vacuum to filled by an amoral media, and a large number of 'average' people who were previously reasonably happy being led by a common and explicit social norm (which could be fought against, by those who thought aspects of it were wrong), are now being picked off by a myriad of fluid, non-obvious belief systems which it doesn't seem possible to defend against.

Oops! doh!!
Used to read 'The Bell Jar' twenty-odd years ago - it obviously made an impression!

Wow.

I wonder if my words will have the right impact on this thread given the minefield of different words and phrases used in some of the posts on here.

It is interested and great to read (or at least attempt to read - my brain started to explode at one point) such a vibrant use of the English language within this thread.

To say it started off discussing the Chav culture, it's ironic that if such a chav were to read this they wouldn't have a clue what the majority of the conversation on here was about.

I would like to ask you timo, are you familiar with the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie"?
Many of your posts seem to display the advice given in the chapters of this book.
If not then I feel you indeed have a natural connection with Dale Carnegie's teachings of the subject.

Sorry to digress from the topic folks, please continue!

this is a thoroughly stimulating discussion....perhaps we have digressed slightly from the original post, but the UK underclass culture is of course a National phenomenon and not just Sheffield.

I decided to take a drive through the Manor on Saturday, well known nesting ground of Sheffield chavs, and was startled to find quite literally lots of school age kids as expected, hanging around on corners, smoking, drinking, etc, aspiring to be no doubt a "gangsta". I did not spot a single person who was NOT clad in hoodies, garish trainers, tracksuit bottoms, or a single instance of a female who was not a perfect mirror image of the female 'chavette', as discussed on the chav scum website. The proportion of knuckle dragging in-bred laboratory experiment rejects was alarmingly high. The volume of anti-social behaviour was abnormally high, and the overall sense of group consciousness was very strong. By group consciousness I mean the collective behaviour or groups of youths forms a united front...in this case, a front of menace and total mindlessness. In that kind of environment, and if one was a teenager, it would be so difficult NOT to be a part of it as the sense of group control was extraordinarily vibrant. They were like wasps in nests fawning over a Queen chavette usually in the centre of a group, and trying to impress her with their command of the 4 letter word English language. Any alien presence who did not share this habitual group consciousness would be quickly and ruthlessly identified and possibly terminated by these specimens. I witnessed only one chavette, who looked like all the others, but obviously was out of favour in a big way as she did not hang with the nest, but circled it, and was approached and spat at by several of the Queens followers. I wish I had had my movie camera there....

It was, how shall I say it, a disturbing journey into Sheffields most notorious chav breeding area. I was conscious of the fact I was not driving a Vauxhall nova or playing a 200000 W bass stereo system, so attracted a lot of attention to myself in the form of stares. It was not pleasant....glad it was not at night!! I was perceived as an outsider immediately, so decided not to stop for a closer inspection of the natural inhabitants and take some snaps for the chav scum website.

Apologies to all who live in this area who are NOT part of the above description, this was only a one-off observation as I passed through the area.

If we could plot the rise of the English underclass over the last 20 years, I wonder if it might be possible to speculate about the development of such over the next 20 years. Another 20 years of in-breeding in these communities are likely to produce the most hideous deformed specimens of mankind ever seen on the Planet.

Does it actually make you feel better about yourself slagging of people you consider to be below you ?

I just wondered.

Is this not a case of

"there but for the grace of god go I"

Prmedloc, I can see your point here. However, I don't think that postmodern ideas, particularly cultural relativism ever help minority groups. To recap, I think that it is unimportant whether or not members of the underclass [if the thesis is accurate] have heard of postmodernist/post-structuralist thinkers such as Lyotard, Derrida, Foucault, Baudrillard etc. What is very important is that "chavs" are well aware that many people in authority are not prepared to make value-judgements about their behaviour. This, in my view, is in part due to the dissemination of postmodern, relativistic ideas. These ideas have "infected" the arts, humanities, social sciences etc to an alarming degree. Look at the Church of England too, particularly its Evangelical wing; when it could be taking a stand against Chavdom in all its manifestations, it instead pushes a form of Christianity that is [in my view] little more than liberalism/relativism wrapped up in vapid abstractions, of how we must never judge and never punish, and how Jesus was "the first Communist". I'm not particularly religious but I balk at how Christianity, in the hands of these anorak-wearing guitarists, has become a mixture of the sanguinary and the saccharine, of Cliff Richard and Karl Marx.
Most of my postings push the argument that there are largely cultural causes of the underclass. I'm not blind, however, to the possibility of some structural causes, for example, whole towns [Skelmersdale in Lancs] have seemingly been abandoned by politicians, and there is little hope of re-investment. In parts of the Noth-east there is fourth generation unemployment, and communities there appear to be subject to a kind of crisis in masculinity; men don't appear to know what their possible roles are. Ultimately, despite often horrendous levels of social dislocation and unemployment, I feel that human beings have the agency, or free will, to control their worst impulses, and I tend to come down on the cultural causes side, i.e, the Chavs so often CHOOSE to live within a dependency culture.
Da Bouncer, call me thick, but I don't follow what you are saying here. Are you praising or disparaging my postings?
Goldenfleece, thanks for making me laugh. What a splendid piece of invective!

Originally posted by nick2
Does it actually make you feel better about yourself slagging of people you consider to be below you ?

I just wondered.

Yes it does...much better actually. Why? because I got myself an education and actually contribute to society. I dont sponge off the state, I dont drive illegal clapped out death traps, steal cars, hang about on street corners intimidating anyone who can utter more than 3 words. I dont spit 30 times a minute just to look good (!!), make a public nuisance of myself, indulge in petty crime, joy ride other peoples cars bought with their hard earned money, smash windows and phone boxes, graffiti all over peoples property....

So yes, My God I feel better than them!!!!

Well said, Goldenfleece. How dare anyone dissent from our cultured, erudite opinions? We, "the beautiful people" have a right to pass judgement upon the hooded cut-purses, chavs, ne'er-do-wells and alchopop-imbibing morons of the underclass because we pay for their lifestyles through the punishing level of taxation imposed upon us by Blair and his Roundheads. When I come to power, ALL chavs will be sent to a Viet Cong -style, Re-education Camp, where there will be forced reading of the Daily Telegraph, piped Classical music all day, subliminal messages from the likes of Roger Scruton, Charles Murray etc, and plenty of time for them to reflect upon their crimes. Vote Timo, you know it makes sense.

Originally posted by timo
Da Bouncer, call me thick, but I don't follow what you are saying here. Are you praising or disparaging my postings?
OK you're thick :P

I was praising the select and what I could only describe as vibrant use of the English language.
The reference to 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' is a query. If you have read the book and soaked it in, then it appears to shine in your postsing somwhat. If not then you have an affinity with Dale Carnegie (the Author) and I suggest you give it a read.

Da Bouncer, thankyou- glad you enjoy the postings.

Originally posted by timo
[B]Well said, Goldenfleece. How dare anyone dissent from our cultured, erudite opinions? We, "the beautiful people" have a right to pass judgement upon the hooded cut-purses, chavs, ne'er-do-wells and alchopop-imbibing morons of the underclass because we pay for their lifestyles through the punishing level of taxation imposed upon us by Blair and his Roundheads.


WELL SAID SIR!! I am glad someone agrees with me here: too many people are far too soft in their outlook to appreciate such a philosophy. I am not just 'slagging off unfortunates' for an ego trip boost, as perhaps it was suggested earlier

....this is about being an active and useful member of society with respect for essential values in such a society. I am proud to be an honest and hard-working member of such a society. I am proud of my education because I worked hard to better myself. I am proud that I have worked hard to make a decent honest living in this world.

I am disgusted with anyone who cannot agree with me on this. Perhaps indeed the only people who will not agree with me are indeed part of the aforementioned species we are discussing on this thread. If that is the case, please go back to your greasy copy of the Sun and maybe considering giving your illegal Nova a tax disk..an MOT perhaps?.. even investigate the possible horror of getting some insurance? Driving licence? Maybe even consider getting a job, tearing up your UB40 or whatever they are called and stop sponging off the state? Perhaps even consider the possibility that education is actually a pretty good idea!! Maybe give up the idea of intimidating honest citizens who have a purpose in society? Perhaps a trip to Meadowhall, not to hang about and leer at the chavettes, but to save some of your hard earned money from your new found employment and get some clothing that might make you feel like a member of the human race, and then consider joining the said human race in a useful and rewarding way?

I agree with your points on the church,Timo. The Church of England is an embarrassment, a tawdry irrellevance.
Like you, I sometimes speculate on the role the church could play in the face of crumbling morals and community decay.
What a thread this has become! probably because of the mental images the word 'chav' creates...surely everyone has an opinion! and how could anyone say it's all about feeling superior to other people...I think the whole issue of chavs is of huge social significance.
I tend to feel disgust and also a kind of sadness when I see these dregs...ultimately I agree with goldenfleece - personal responsibility is at the root of all things...

Mullet, well said. Yes, you and I and Goldenfleece appear to be on the same wavelength re the issues of personal responsibility, agency and free will .
Something that may interest you; there are Functionalist sociologists [Emile Durkheim, Talcott Parsons etc] who view deviance like Chav behaviour as "useful" for society. They suggest that deviant behaviour acts as a yardstick for how NOT to behave. For example, when our kindred spirit, Goldenfleece drives through a Chav enclave and emerges disgusted at the anti-social behaviour on display there, his solid citizenry, and "civilised" norms and values are effectively reinforced and shored up by the experience. The Chav behaviour may be morally reprehensible, but it still functions to ensure the smooth-running of society by serving as an example of behaviour NOT to be emulated. So Goldenfleece, Mullet and Timo are RIGHT to feel self-congratulatory in the face of Chavdom. Well, it's just a theory...

If Nick2 finds over 40,s in combat gear amusing ,what would he suggest to somebody over 40 that they wear that would make them socially acceptable to his generation,not that we are really bothered.

Maxwell, you will come to realise that little people like Nick2 have nothing interesting, informative or even relevant to contribute to threads like this. Nick is not terribly bright, bless him, and he is incapable of putting together a coherent, rigorous argument. To compensate for this deficit, he makes weasily, achingly-unfunny "witticisms", or he will attempt to pathologise [he'll be reaching for the dictionary here] other contributors. Another trick of his is to make disparaging remarks about older, wiser generations. If he is sufficiently riled [the blood coursing through his tiny brain chamber], he will resort to seemingly meaningless utterances like "Dif" [see earlier pages, when I question whether this strange phrase is a fragment of the click-language of the Kalahari]. Try to ignore his callow and idiotic opinions. The kindest and wisest thing we can do is to laugh at him. Ha ha ha!

Well, now that the Chav Sympathisers have been well and truly put in their place, it looks like the most informative, in-depth and amusing discussion to grace the screens of Sheffield Forum has come to an end.
The thing is - I am hungry for more! will there be a Timo taught BSc Hons in Chavology? I want to put my name down if so...

Richynomates, this is not the end! It is but the beginning, dear heart. I agree here, the thread has been an entertaining one so far, save for the interjaculations of certain bitter, unpleasant inverted snobs. As I have already made clear, when I come to power all manner of things will be possible. Yes, there WILL be a Degree programme in Chav Studies, but it will be B.A. [Hons], not BS.c. However, a research-based Degree programme in Applied Chav Studies will be offered, and this will include both qualitative and quantitative approaches to the study of Chavs. On this programme, there will be an Ethnographic dissertation option for students who wish to conduct research on Chavs whilst living [temporarily] within a Chav enclave, such as the Manor. Doctoral studies too will be available. The academic institution offering such innovative programmes will be called The Central University of Neepsend Town Site, and we will have an Exchange Programme with The Parsons Cross Centre for Applied Alchopop Studies[ Bobby Knutt Building]. Our sister university colleges, Oughtibridge Marti Caine Polyversity and Chesterfield Bernie Clifton Institute for Media Studies will offer watered- down versions of our Degree programmes, run by ex-Polytechnic and F.E. staff.

Originally posted by timo
Maxwell, you will come to realise that little people like Nick2 have nothing interesting, informative or even relevant to contribute to threads like this. Nick is not terribly bright, bless him, and he is incapable of putting together a coherent, rigorous argument. To compensate for this deficit, he makes weasily, achingly-unfunny "witticisms", or he will attempt to pathologise [he'll be reaching for the dictionary here] other contributors. Another trick of his is to make disparaging remarks about older, wiser generations. If he is sufficiently riled [the blood coursing through his tiny brain chamber], he will resort to seemingly meaningless utterances like "Dif" [see earlier pages, when I question whether this strange phrase is a fragment of the click-language of the Kalahari]. Try to ignore his callow and idiotic opinions. The kindest and wisest thing we can do is to laugh at him. Ha ha ha!

LOL - That put me in my place.

Nick2, yes it did rather. Don't worry though, I don't bear grudges. I have reserved a place for you on my forthcoming Applied Chav Studies Degree level course, based at The Central University of Neepsend Town Site. The course starts next September to coincide with my coming to power. Please look out for the Prospectus, which I shall email to you. On Enrolment Day, please report to The Clive Betts Building, opposite to The Centre for Applied Post-Structuralist Glue Sniffing and Alchopop Research [adjacent to The Tony Capstick Memorial Lecture Theatre]. After enrolment, there will be an opportunity to "be really yourself" with fellow students and academic staff in a "non-judgemental", "multicultural", vegan finger-buffet held in The Abu Nidal Student Union Building. Afterwards, there will be a lecture given by Professor Roy Hatterjee of our sister college, Oughtibridge Marti Caine Polyversity, on the multi-faceted oppression faced by club-footed, Rastafarian dwarves in South Yorkshire. I am sure that, with a bit of extra tuition, you will graduate with a qualification to be proud of, Nick.

Originally posted by timo
Nick2, yes it did rather. Don't worry though, I don't bear grudges. I have reserved a place for you on my forthcoming Applied Chav Studies Degree level course, based at The Central University of Neepsend Town Site. The course starts next September to coincide with my coming to power. Please look out for the Prospectus, which I shall email to you. On Enrolment Day, please report to The Clive Betts Building, opposite to The Centre for Applied Post-Structuralist Glue Sniffing and Alchopop Research [adjacent to The Tony Capstick Memorial Lecture Theatre]. After enrolment, there will be an opportunity to "be really yourself" with fellow students and academic staff in a "non-judgemental", "multicultural", vegan finger-buffet held in The Abu Nidal Student Union Building. Afterwards, there will be a lecture given by Professor Roy Hatterjee of our sister college, Oughtibridge Marti Caine Polyversity, on the multi-faceted oppression faced by club-footed, Rastafarian dwarves in South Yorkshire. I am sure that, with a bit of extra tuition, you will graduate with a qualification to be proud of, Nick.

I can't believe you typed all that just to slag me off.

Nick2, on the contrary, it is an offer of a place at what will be a highly-respected academic institution.

I'm glad you edited the naughty word out.

Hmm i may do a dissertation on Chavs one day

All this heavyweight discussion is mighty fine, but those seeking diversion might want to go to www.argos.co.uk and type the word 'chav' into the search box. Innocent fun for all the family, and bargains galore...

Joyphil, very amusing. Why don't you apply for Vice-Chancellor of Central University of Neepsend Town Site [the moderator keeps editing out the initials, haven't the foggiest as to why?] ? We could definately use someone with an in-depth, analytical knowledge of Argos etc. Or, we may introduce a kind of equivalent to The Warden of All Souls, say, Warden of All Chavs, which you might care to consider. Maybe you see your role as more of an associate than a fully committed member of staff. In that case, you might consider being Visiting Professor in Argos and Netto Studies?

Don't know about everyone else but the whole chav thing is getting a bit tedious.
Ok there are people that wear shell suits, sovs, white trainers and are generally socially inept but it s been done...isn't there anything else you can talk about??its just slob culture.lazy ,backward.fools.drug and drink culture.dole lites

Joyphil, very amusing. Why don't you apply for Vice-Chancellor of Central University of Neepsend Town Site [the moderator keeps editing out the initials, haven't the foggiest as to why?] ? We could definately use someone with an in-depth, analytical knowledge of Argos etc. Or, we may introduce a kind of equivalent to The Warden of All Souls, say, Warden of All Chavs, which you might care to consider. Maybe you see your role as more of an associate than a fully committed member of staff. In that case, you might consider being Visiting Professor in Argos and Netto Studies?come on netto.......errrrrrrrrrr POUND LAND

If anyone is really bothered - have a read of any Victorian decriptions of the slums - their feckless inhabitants and the petty criminals that scourged respectable society - and you'll find very similar stories to modern day accounts of chavs.