just curious to know which of us in the forum believe in a 'God' type higher being that controls/manages/governs (delete as appropriate) what we do?

Maybe you believe in more than one god (i.e. God of Day, God of Night, God of the Trees... etc).

Which if you worship a 'Devil' type being, after all Satanism is a recognised faith.
Can someone believe in a God and NOT believe in a Devil... is it possible to have one without the other in your mind?

Just wondered what other peoples thoughts on the subject are.

I'll leave my thoughts till later!

Hmmmm interesting reading these responses are..... :p Quite frankly I thought that there would be more debate on this subject!

I believe in God but more for scientific reasons, I could babble on but I won't.

Go on! Tell us your scientific reasons!

.......not really thought about it in any particular detail....I think that people start believing in a God when they are feeling down or when they are at a low point in their lives......but I doubt if a God exists....no offence to believers :o

I don't believe in the Christian god, or any of the 'main' religions. Nor do I believe in any of the pagan gods.

Moon Maiden

There has got to be a God, otherwise, where did creation come from? and please don't tell me it just happened because it is stretching coincidence too far,what,or who made it happen?

Originally posted by halevan
There has got to be a God, otherwise, where did creation come from? and please don't tell me it just happened because it is stretching coincidence too far,what,or who made it happen?

You keep saying that but where did this god thing come from?

The creations of what - also there is a problem with creation isn't there??

I mean If adam and eve were the first humans to walk the planet and they had two SONS?? How did we get here?

Where did the women come from - or does God now love us because of Incestuous relationships??

Moon maiden

100% no 'gods' whatsoever

any religious sects are worse than the mafia...at least they are upfront about robbing you

anyone who worships these things just are'nt facing up to reality.

gods are as real as the mind that perceives them.

no empirical proof can exist for them or against them other than that they self evidently do/do not exist.

science will shed no light on it at least

if there is one, why not more?

maybe there were gods but they left, or died.

maybe god is just another name for the part of our brain that used to talk to us, before it comparitively recently became the ego (it's a theory)

not a good one though

It's a better theory than most and does allow for a more inclusive congregation and clergy. cf CoE.

Why is it people are delusional if they choose to believe in a particular religion and it's deity??

Why is that weak? Why do you think that you are better than those people costessey??

Enquiring minds wanna know.

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by costessey
not a good one though

You know that to be true 100% as well?

If you are genuinely interested there is a very thought provoking book to be found here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395563526/026-9612443-5322067) . Ostensibly Jaynes' book is about the origins of the 'ego' or self-conciousness and language. But it is a very interesting read from the point of view of 'God as an epiphenomenon of early forms of conciousness'.

I'm with Moon Maiden - I want to know how you have such certainty there are no gods. Are you equally certain that there have never been any? I always think people are very welcome to their religions, but they can't all be right, unless they are all wrong (and are worshipping facets of the same higher being without knowing it).

Or is just the concept of a supreme being a nonsense in the first place? (I believe this to be so, purely on an empirical basis, but I'm interested in your reasoning.)

Personally, I find it incredibly difficult to believe in a supreme, omnipresent, eternally benevolent being - a creator of all.

Although what I do find fascinating is the many manifestations, for want of a better word, of "god(s)" through the ages. The Aztecs believed that the Sun was god, the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks believed in several gods, other civilisations believed that the mountains (specifically volcanoes) were gods, and so on, and so forth. But who’s to say the Greeks were wrong, or even the Aztecs?

I've always thought of "god" (not necessarily, or specifically the Christian god, but in general) as a security blanket, or even a scapegoat for a fallible humanity - and I mean this in no to be way deliberately offensive. When things cannot be explained, it must be god's doing. When disaster strikes, well, god moves in mysterious ways. It’s always been this way – no matter what the divine being/gods, or how much we attempt to placate them, whether it be by prayer, sacrifice, abstinence, offerings etc. nothing changes.

We have yet to understand the origin of the universe(s) fully, for example, and since we don't, then it must be the product of a supreme creator. To me, god also seems to be an easy answer to difficult questions.

I believe that we alone, as a species, are responsible for our actions – we have only ourselves to answer to and for, and I believe that we find, or have found, this incredibly difficult to come to terms with, and have thus created “God” in it’s many forms through the history of civilisation.

I don’t see anything overtly wrong with this – if people find comfort, or it makes them a better person, then fair enough. It’s a shame, however, that god, religion etc. has been used to manipulate, scare, and so on.

But then, who's to say I'm right? It's all down to faith.

Finally - my apologies if this hasn't read too clearly - I've got a meeting in a minute, so haven't got a huge amount of time to try and explain, or expatiate too much!

Cheers.

first off ..i was bought up as c of e...went to sunday school..all that good stuff!

second...i may come across as arrogant ...but thats because i am...just a trait i'm afraid!

so...therefore...i believe totally in myself...enjoy life while its there..then rot or burn.

i'm not into debating the subject...just stating the obvious. Religion is about control of the masses, not the truth

Originally posted by costessey
first off ..i was bought up as c of e...went to sunday school..all that good stuff!

second...i may come across as arrogant ...but thats because i am...just a trait i'm afraid!

so...therefore...i believe totally in myself...enjoy life while its there..then rot or burn.

i'm not into debating the subject...just stating the obvious. Religion is about control of the masses, not the truth
got to admire your upfrontness i suppose!

Originally posted by costessey
i'm not into debating the subject...just stating the obvious. Religion is about control of the masses, not the truth

The fact that you are not into debating the subject is clearly demonstrated by your gross over-simplification of the entire subject.

Since you clearly don't want to be convinced that your position is mistaken you refuse to hear any argument against it. Shame, you might learn something from debating the issue.

Originally posted by costessey
first off ..i was bought up as c of e...went to sunday school..all that good stuff!

second...i may come across as arrogant ...but thats because i am...just a trait i'm afraid!

so...therefore...i believe totally in myself...enjoy life while its there..then rot or burn.

i'm not into debating the subject...just stating the obvious. Religion is about control of the masses, not the truth

But by refusing to debate, doesn't your point become moot?

Or something like that, anyway

i'll only debate when there is a point to be clarified, in this case ther isn't.....it's of no concern of mine what others think, as long as it doesn't affect me...however, the church has too much affect on day to day life...although, happily, its control will wane as people wake up to reality.

So what was the point of you posting then? :p

I think Costessey is simply posting his opinion and doesn't give a rats ass what other people think on it and it is not open to debate either.

????

MM

you got it....

Fair enough, although as Phanerothyme says - it's a shame you're not willing to debate, and maybe learn something - or indeed, teach us something...

Simplistic View
BTW I voted No way thats a load of pants.

Some people need someone to look up to = Gods whatever the religon

People generally like to socialise and be with other people = Church and congregations whatever the religion

People generally like to help others and contribute to society they live in = Local Church and its associated activity's whatever the religion

I have no problem with what anyone believes in as long as they keep things under control.

OK since people are divided on the subject how about this off-shoot of the debate.

What do you people feel about members of religions 'forcing' (for want of a better word) their religions upon you?

I am refering here to the way Jahovas Witnesses do when they come knocking on your door!

I don't like to be inpolite but for 2 straight weeks I've sai I'm not interested, please don't call again... and they have called again!

Does anyone else feel that this sort of spreading the word is too much and an invasion of privacy?

I am currently doing a bible study with a Jehovah's Witness. She has known my husband for years and obvisouly when I married him I got to know her too.

Other JH get very confused when visiting our house as I will stand there and tell them that I already read WatchTower (which we do) and I have my pentagram necklace on. They even came into the shop once.

Generally I don't have much problem with people. I was subjected to Croydon's Christian finest last Novemeber when they attempted to boycott the Pagan Federation conference by handing out bible tracts.

People don't bug me much - I wonder if they are scared? I don't think I am a scary person - but that I guess depends on how annoyed with the kids I am

Moon Maiden

jehova's witnesses are a cult, not a religion.

I occasionally invite them in and try and force my 'god as epiphenomenon' doctrine on them, at which point they make their excuses and go away.

they are immune to humour, anger, criticism. The best answer is probably to stick a notice on your door saying something like:

Notice: If you are calling in connection with any of the following groups, cults, organisations or institutions then please GO AWAY.
Jehova's Witnesses
Church of JC and the latter day saints (aka mormons)
Scientologists
Unification Church (moonies)
etc.

If you ring this bell you will be PUNISHED!

At least then you have warned them.

We Are The Other People (http://ayla.brinkster.net/OZWeAreTheOtherPeople.asp)
An article written by a pagan but quite interesting.

Moon Maiden

Good article Moon Maiden, printed that one out for future reference =) =)

Can't wait for their next visit

All I can say to the creationists among you is who created the creator?

don't believe in god despite going to sunday school as a kid!

if people take comfort from believing then that's fine, but it's just not for me.

although the strange thing is I love going to places like York Minster, Notre Dame etc.

I think years ago the church was the cornerstone of the local community, so maybe that's why people went.

I think years ago the church was the cornerstone of the local community, so maybe that's why people went. [/B][/QUOTE]



No...it was to shelter from the bombs

no it wasn't

I believe in God. Sometimes its a comfort as people have said, and sometimes its a hard relationship because there are periods where you are striving to be closer to him and better for him. And 'Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild' had a lot of really difficult advice to impart while he was here (according to Mtt, Mk, Lk and Jn). Church still has a lot to offer as a community dispite its falling numbers. ...Not just a bomb shelter...

Sorry don't buy the GOD bit .Same old question from me ,why is there so much suffering on this planet of ours.

So far the poll is showing a different result to previous similar polls. Maybe it's squewed by the worship of alcohol question.

if you take the word entity out of the poll i'd say yes for sure, but a typical human error is to look at things from a human point of view and try and see god-force-awareness as personality-entity

i believe that we are all fragments of the one consciousness, the creator that is all, the I AM, we are all interconnected jewels reflecting each other

organised religion is about controlling people, not enlightening them

truth is like a mirror shattered into a thousand pieces, and every religion that holds a piece thinks that it has got the whole mirror

several modern cults (of course cults could be thought of as just small religions, religions are just big cults) eg jehovahs witnesses, mormons, scientology were created by documented occultist/freemasons to cul-de-sac people who are dissatisfied with mainstream religions

check out the tao te ching for insight into the flow that is all :love: :hihi:

http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/ttcstan3.html

eg

1. THE EMBODIMENT OF TAO
Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
Without words, the Tao can be experienced,
and without a name, it can be known.

To conduct one's life according to the Tao,
is to conduct one's life without regrets;
to realize that potential within oneself
which is of benefit to all.

Though words or names are not required
to live one's life this way,
to describe it, words and names are used,
that we might better clarify
the way of which we speak,
without confusing it with other ways
in which an individual might choose to live.

Through knowledge, intellectual thought and words,
the manifestations of the Tao are known,
but without such intellectual intent
we might experience the Tao itself.

Both knowledge and experience are real,
but reality has many forms,
which seem to cause complexity.

By using the means appropriate,
we extend ourselves beyond
the barriers of such complexity,
and so experience the Tao.

jehova's witnesses are a cult, not a religion.

You are wrong about Jehova's witnesses being a cult, they are in fact a recognised religion, they have open public meetings and nothing is hidden, in fact how could people be any more open about their beliefs than to go knocking on doors and chatting about it?, and perhaps their sense of humour is a little impaired by being the butt of the joke so to speak.
I am not a Jehova's witness but i do know a fair bit about the religion and the ones i know are among the kindest most genuine people i know.

Sorry don't buy the GOD bit .Same old question from me ,why is there so much suffering on this planet of ours.

cos it's a game about the illusion of separation that some people forget is a game and project their feelings of suffering onto others

You are wrong about Jehova's witnesses being a cult, they are in fact a recognised religion, they have open public meetings and nothing is hidden, in fact how could people be any more open about their beliefs than to go knocking on doors and chatting about it?, and perhaps their sense of humour is a little impaired by being the butt of the joke so to speak.
I am not a Jehova's witness but i do know a fair bit about the religion and the ones i know are among the kindest most genuine people i know.

all religions are cults, some are big mainstream cults

most people get into religion for the most healthy reasons and are genuinely lovely people, who have however been sidetracked by dogma

Yes, I believe in God for a very simple reason - I was born with faith. I have not had a religious upbringing by any means, yet I have held a strong conviction since childhood that God exists. I have chosen to attend church as an adult through my own free will because I actually enjoy celebrating what I believe in.

Regarding the shoving religion down other people's throats - no, I would never do that because people will only ever be capable of believing what they truly feel. You can't persuade someone that God exists, or try to reason with them to subscribe to your point of view. And nor should you.

To be honest, I think it is the other way round. I know very few religious folk who go around preaching to non-believers. Yet I constantly find myself having to justify my beliefs as the 'token believer'.

A good example of this was when I was having a meal in a restaurant in Edinburgh and there was a debate going on at the other end of the table about religion. Suddenly I heard my name and a booming voice asserting that I believed in God - suddenly all eyes were on me to justify this. Isn't that just as bad as over-zealous religious types preaching????

Like all the very best debates this one has interesting points on all sides.

Firstly i should say i'm an atheist. I don't believe in God/supreme being/creator type person.

To me the interesting thing about this debate is faith. Because even if you don't believe in a god you have to put your faith in something.

Lets take the evolution/creationism argument and simplify it.

Creationism. The idea that living organisms (it applies to plants/virus'/bacterium as well not just mammals!) gradually adapt to their surroundings and develop physical and mental characteristics to enable them to survive. These dominant traits are passed on at genetic level thus ensuring the continuity of the species while similtaneously improving it. In humans case this happened over a seriously long period of time with apes being our closest living ancestors (Although you share 67% indentical genetic makeup to lettuce)

Creationism. One day two people walked out of a forest.

In both cases you need faith. The creationists have faith that god created all. The evolutionaries have faith in Darwin and science. Neither can catagorically prove definitively they are 100% correct.

But lets be fair evolution seems the better bet.

Now the point is that its human to have faith and its human to want to put your trust in someone/thing. That is how we survived for a long time.

So the belief in God is simply you putting your trust in the idea that someone is looking after youand you also get a conveinient scapegoat for when things are going bad.

The truth is they aren't. You can only be responsible for your own actions, your 'belief' in god is merely you not recognizing the analytical part of your brain processing all the actions and providing you with possible solutions.

There's a distinction people fail to make between diecism and theism.

Deicism is the belief that there is an underlying cause or regulation for everything that happens in the Universe. In it's strictest sense, I am a Deist because I believe that there are sets of rules (formed from the interactions of subatomic particles and on larger scales the heirarchical complexes built from them) that we don't fully understand yet. I believe that if we knew these utterly we could model and predict the outcome of any event, unless the rules include an inherently stochastic character. A Deity, in this definition, is a rational and necessary part of existence.

Theicism is the attempt to describe the object of deicism more thoroughly, an extreme but common example being the assignation of anthropomorphic characteristics to it. Theicism is illogical and unprovable, speculating on an unknown quantity, but religion attempts to link deicism and theicism, using the entirely rational basis of deicism to justify their particular theistic concepts. This is a self evident tautology, but on the face of it is a subtly persuasive argument - many who would simply be rational deists, who see there must be a cause for everything, are drawn in to the irrationality of religion through this sophistical link to theicism.

So the belief in God is simply you putting your trust in the idea that someone is looking after youand you also get a conveinient scapegoat for when things are going bad.

.

there's that common human failing again - to attempt to squash an infinite eternal awareness into humanoid "someone" form

I basically go along with the argument of philosophers like A.J.Ayer, a potted version of which can be found here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/reasons/meaningless.shtml). See e.g. his book 'Language, Truth and Logic' for more detail.

Until somebody can tell me what would count as objective empirical evidence for the existence of a god or gods, I'll continue to think of t a l k about those things as being meaningless, empty words with no content (or possibly some metaphor for certain aspects of human experience, though that's clearly not what most of the faithful mean by those words, clearly not what they claim to 'believe' in).

Incidentally, I think that the denial of metaphysical entities like God or the soul in eastern philosophies/religions such as Buddhism (maybe also Taoism? I don't know so much about that) makes them much more compatible with western science/philosophy than are the western religions, which seem philosophically very primitive by comparison.

All I can say to the creationists among you is who created the creator?
always is, always was, and ever shall be. That is the doctrine, impossible to get your head round it unless you blindly accept it.
We have a limited concept of time. We are made, live, and perish in less than a hundred years, it is impossible for us to imagine endlessness.
If you do not believe it all started somewhere, then how do you explain something that has no begining. It is impossible to comprehend.

When I visit Southern European countries where God and the church are part and parcel of folks lives I envy their unquestioning belief. I walk round villages where all the front doors are kept open, car windows left open, bikes not padlocked to lamp posts etc and I wonder if their belief in God has something to do with this.

When I come back I never give God a second thought, how could God allow chavs to exist?

When I visit Southern European countries where God and the church are part and parcel of every day life I envy their unquestioning belief. I walk round villages where all the front doors are left open, car windows kept open, bikes not padlocked to lamp posts etc and I wonder if their belief in God has something to do with this.

When I come back I never give God a second thought, how could God allow chavs to exist for a start?

The creations of what - also there is a problem with creation isn't there??

I mean If adam and eve were the first humans to walk the planet and they had two SONS?? How did we get here?

Where did the women come from - or does God now love us because of Incestuous relationships??

Moon maiden

Brilliant post MM!

Totally agree with you- how did we all spring from two blokes?
Now as Paul Daniels would say 'Thats Magic' .....

I dread to think what the religious fans on here are going to come up with though in order to shift the bible's meanings to give an answer.

When I visit Southern European countries where God and the church are part and parcel of folks lives I envy their unquestioning belief. I walk round villages where all the front doors are kept open, car windows left open, bikes not padlocked to lamp posts etc and I wonder if their belief in God has something to do with this.

When I come back I never give God a second thought, how could God allow chavs to exist?

doubt it. Crime still existed 100 years ago when believe in god was pervasive.
It still exists in America where many more people believe than here.

There's little evidence to suggest that believe in god as a society reduces crime.

More likely that the small strong communities of the places you are visiting keep the crime rate low.

Um...I am a christian..How about you?:)

Um...I am a christian..How about you?:)
Now whats this about nancy ? No replies to your thread so I guess people arent interested. What do I think about God ? I believe God exists in our hearts and souls. Its how we treat other people,and the good deeds we do,without bragging about it.I was brought up a Catholic,but now just call myself Christian.

there is no god

Mod Note: Threads merged.

there is no god
Are you an Athiest melthebell ? How do you know there is no God ?

I believe you all know what my answer is! I was brought up a Christian and went to C of E school. However, I also once believed in the Tooth-Fairy, The Bogeyman and, sorry but this will disillusion you all, Father Christmas! If you get pleasure, strength, comfort etc from your "God", thats fine. But for me its just the two dangly bits on a male.:P

I know a few people who think they are higher than GOD.

But i am just a devil in disguise

I believe you all know what my answer is! I was brought up a Christian and went to C of E school. However, I also once believed in the Tooth-Fairy, The Bogeyman and, sorry but this will disillusion you all, Father Christmas! If you get pleasure, strength, comfort etc from your "God", thats fine. But for me its just the two dangly bits on a male.:P

It's like you read my mind (or my previous posts) :hihi:

Are you an Athiest melthebell ? How do you know there is no God ?

lack of evidence for the existance of one.

Or more specifically any scientific hypothesis must involve predictable outcome which can then be measured against. The idea of God doesn't fulfil this criteria, thus it must always be based on faith, and not reason.

Hence the only logical conclusion is that there is no god.

Of course anyone who wishes to support the opposite argument will then attack science as being 'a religion' or faith based, which when it's all boiled out just isn't true.

There is masses of evidence for a "human type entity" - we all meet loads of them every day - but no evidence that I can see / experience for this "god type entity".

We created "gods" in our own (idealised) image of ourselves and to fill in the holes in our knowledge.

Yes I believe in god but I don't for one second believe god to be human form, but it's all blind faith as I don't want to believe there's nothing after death.

but it's all blind faith as I don't want to believe there's nothing after death. You and almost all believers Cliff. The fear of nothing after death frightens the life out of most people which is why they convince themselves that there is another place. Those that dont believe in the "other place" convince themselves that they will be reincarnated. I do hope that you and everyone else is right and we do somehow live on, but truthfully I have weighed up all the evidence and I simply cannot accept it. I prefer to enjoy the life I have got now, hopefully as a good person who does not cause harm to others.

You and almost all believers Cliff. The fear of nothing after death frightens the life out of most people which is why they convince themselves that there is another place. Those that dont believe in the "other place" convince themselves that they will be reincarnated. I do hope that you and everyone else is right and we do somehow live on, but truthfully I have weighed up all the evidence and I simply cannot accept it. I prefer to enjoy the life I have got now, hopefully as a good person who does not cause harm to others.

Alleluia praise be to Sweetcheeks ,you are without doubt full of wisdom;)

The creations of what - also there is a problem with creation isn't there??

I mean If adam and eve were the first humans to walk the planet and they had two SONS?? How did we get here?

Where did the women come from - or does God now love us because of Incestuous relationships??

Moon maiden

Just a point, but Adam and Eve had THREE sons, Cain, Abel and Seth. What I’d like to know is, if they were alone in the world, how did Cain manage to marry in a far off land? Could it have been another planet?

My views on this subject are way out, even in terms of science-fiction. To be brief, I believe the lives of all Earth’s creatures are planned. Not very well planned, but planned for reasons we do not know. I also believe that there is everlasting life, but not in its Biblical sense.

There are several planets in our universe, all of them at different stages of development. When humans on this planet have exhausted all its earthly wealth, and realised at last that they have sealed their own fate, space travel will have reached the stage at which they can be transferred to one of the other planets and hopefully lead a better and more reponsible life.

They will need to take with them at least two species of every living thing (read all about the Ark!), and they will survive. The chosen planet, I believe, will at that stage be regarded as our ‘Heaven’, and the Earth as our former ‘Hell’.

But all this still leaves the big question unanswered, and all I can say is that if you have any creation — be it by an artist or sculptor or even an architect — it logically follows that there must be a creator.

Just a point, but Adam and Eve had THREE sons, Cain, Abel and Seth. What I’d like to know is, if they were alone in the world, how did Cain manage to marry in a far off land? Could it have been another planet?

My views on this subject are way out, even in terms of science-fiction. To be brief, I believe the lives of all Earth’s creatures are planned. Not very well planned, but planned for reasons we do not know. I also believe that there is everlasting life, but not in its Biblical sense.

There are several planets in our universe, all of them at different stages of development. When humans on this planet have exhausted all its earthly wealth, and realised at last that they have sealed their own fate, space travel will have reached the stage at which they can be transferred to one of the other planets and hopefully lead a better and more reponsible life.

They will need to take with them at least two species of every living thing (read all about the Ark!), and they will survive. The chosen planet, I believe, will at that stage be regarded as our ‘Heaven’, and the Earth as our former ‘Hell’.

But all this still leaves the big question unanswered, and all I can say is that if you have any creation — be it by an artist or sculptor or even an architect — it logically follows that there must be a creator. Two points I would make from your post is that you, as all others do, assume that the Bible is the whole truth and that it should be taken literally. I think it has some very good points that we can learn from and put into our own lives, but to take it as "Gospel", which is what we are supposed to do, is wrong in my opinion. The other point is that you mention the word Creation, and I agree with your logic re artist, sculptor etc, but we were not created, we evolved, i.e. no creator. We are on our own, not here for any reason, that would be too presumptious surely. This is my opinion only and as I have said before if you wish to believe and get comfort and strength from that belief, then good for you.

Two points I would make from your post is that you, as all others do, assume that the Bible is the whole truth and that it should be taken literally. I think it has some very good points that we can learn from and put into our own lives, but to take it as "Gospel", which is what we are supposed to do, is wrong in my opinion. The other point is that you mention the word Creation, and I agree with your logic re artist, sculptor etc, but we were not created, we evolved, i.e. no creator. We are on our own, not here for any reason, that would be too presumptious surely. This is my opinion only and as I have said before if you wish to believe and get comfort and strength from that belief, then good for you.

With all due respect, I don’t assume that The Bible is the whole truth or that it has any truth at all. My beliefs, as I have pointed out, border on science-fiction, but I take your point about evolution and add that however we were evolved, whatever we are evolved from leaves us, or at least me, with the same problem. And of course the other problem is that while some are almost certain we evolved, others still believe as I do — again not in any Biblical sense — that we should seek a Creator — animal, vegetable or mineral — rather than any God.

Frankly, I think the question is impossible for anyone to answer. The entire universe ‘evolved’, but from what? Gases? How did those gases get there? And when those gases came, and the much publicised ‘big bang’ occurred, how did ‘life’ form initially on Earth. It had to come from somewhere. Did it appear from nowhere and if so, how? I’m not a scientist, I’m not religious but at my age I can tell you that the big question often occupies my mind; probably because I’m nearer to finding out than you are! No disrespect implied. I should be hedging my bets and going to church every Sunday just to be on the safe side, but I don’t because I believe my life is planned by something rather than someone, and whatever will be will be. But be assured, when my time comes and I’m reaching my final destination, if I find a computer and the internet I’ll let everyone know.

why do you believe that peter? Just speculation on your point that sounds nice, or do you have anything to back up the idea.

What is this planning, how does it work, and in what way is it 'not very well planned'. To be planned surely your every thought must be set in stone in advance, in which case all you are is an automatum following a script.

why do you believe that peter? Just speculation on your point that sounds nice, or do you have anything to back up the idea.

What is this planning, how does it work, and in what way is it 'not very well planned'. To be planned surely your every thought must be set in stone in advance, in which case all you are is an automatum following a script.

First, not very well planned. If it was very well planned there would be no wars in the world and life would be much more serene.

Next, since you put it that way I suppose I believe I am actually following some sort of a script — and I do feel that someone or something has been guiding me through my life, and keeping one step ahead of me. Sounds daft, I know, but that’s how I feel.

Finally, I don’t really need anything to back up my idea. I’m not looking to prove it to anyone, it’s just a ‘feeling’ — if you can understand that. All I’m setting out is my idea of life.

I can give you a thousand or more examples of what I mean, but I suppose one will suffice. During my life I have done many ordinary things that people do, and wondered why the hell I was bothering. Some time later, I’d be doing something else — something quite important — and would realise that what I had been doing some months or years earlier, had been done to prepare me for what I was doing now.

We all have our own views on this subject, and while I admit mine are probably a bit OTT they are what I believe. I’m probably fatalistic, but my life’s experiences have led me to believe that something or someone has already planned my life and for some reason started by being bad to me (I had an absolutely awful father) and as time went on began to be good to me.

I don’t think that I will have an afterlife and I am not afraid of dying either in my sleep, through illness, through old age, through horrific accident or anything else because whatever has guided me through life from birth, will guide me through death. As I said before, whatever will be, will be.

And finally, although I question my life (I wonder why, if there was a God, was I put on Earth in the first place and then think Yes, I was put here to leave some knowledge behind, which is why I now write factual books) I accept that it is my life and just get on with it. There’s only the one, as far as I know and as far as anyone knows.

Are you an Athiest melthebell ? How do you know there is no God ?
Well I know because the infallible, immaterial pink dragon who lives in my airing cupboard told me that there is no God, so unless you can prove that this infallible, immaterial pink dragon doesn’t exist I shall continue in my belief that there is no God.

i dont believe there is any such thing as god any more than i believe in fairies or unicorns. If there was a god terrible things would not happen to good people such as paedophiles attacking innocent children. If there is a god he/she must therefore be evil or have a sick sense of humour. I believe that god and religion was purely created as a way of controling the masses in olden times in the absense of set laws etc to live by and to teach people not to treat others badly. I think the basis of this is a good thing that people have morals to live but that anyone who still actually believes that 'god' exists is lacking something from their own life and need to cling onto this belief as something to follow like sheep. The bible imo is little more than a storeybook to educate people how to behave and treat other people how they expect to be treat themselves but i fail to see any truth in the stories themselves as most of them are clearly impossible and i think anyone who takes them literally is a little foolish. Surely if some of it is clearly fiction then how can any of it be deemed to be true? - if a person lies in court then nothing they say can be considered to be truthful beyond all doubt so why should the monks have it any different? Just because something was written with good intentions doesnt make it the truth.

I've just skimmed thru this thread so I'n sorry if repeat anything thats already been said.

I was a Christian from the age of 7 and never really had many proper relationships cos of it and felt guilty about the few I did have, yo be honest I don't see the reasoning behind no sex before marriage. If something doesn't hurt people then how can it be wrong?

Most people obey the commandments anywhere, don't steal, murder, commit adultary etc but going by what is preached i church they won't get into heaven if they don't praise god, if he's real he sounds a bit egotistic to me.
then theres the fact that theres some people who do steal, murder, rape and so on and all I get in response when i ask Christians about this is god created free will, which is great for the bad people who choose to hurt others but wheres the freewill of the people on the receiving end who have to suffer because of it? it doesn't sound fair to me

Cyclone — it’s just an afterthought and not written to provide the basis of another argument or discussion, but a ‘thought’ has entered my head, and it’s this: “Ask Cyclone what puts thoughts into his head.”

The brain controls all our actions. Nerves tell it when we are ill or in pain, and it reacts. It knows the illness is there, it knows the pain is there and it reminds us of what we should do to counter it.

As an essential to our life and wellbeing, the brain is indispensible. It’s basically, in modern terms, an advanced computer which regulates and/or reacts to everything — except itself. From what I’ve been told by medical men (second-hand information) it cannot feel its own pain so if it was necessary it would be possible to operate on a brain without the use of anæsthetics.

It is only connected to every part of our body. It is not connected to a world outside the body, so what or who provides it with an outside thought and how does it get there? It’s not meant as a challenge to anyone’s intelligence, it’s more of a thought to consider at leisure before deciding what unknown, mind-boggling mysteries our world is still capable of producing.

It is connected to the world outside our body via our various sensory systems e.g. sight, hearing, touch. Why would a thought need to come from outside anyway?

As an essential to our life and wellbeing, the brain is indispensible. It’s basically, in modern terms, an advanced computer which regulates and/or reacts to everything — except itself.
:huh: Of course the brain reacts to itself, what do you think dreams, memories, thoughts and so forth are if not the brain reacting to itself?

:huh: Of course the brain reacts to itself, what do you think dreams, memories, thoughts and so forth are if not the brain reacting to itself?

Dreams and memories are there, jumbled up or clear, because of things you might have done or said recently or a long time ago. A thought doesn’t just ‘get there’, it has to come from somewhere and while I appreciate you may be correct, I just don’t think so.

I have just read what you have written, and my brain knows this and allows me to think about it and reply. That is an ‘inner thought’. If you read carefully what I’ve previously put, you’ll find I refer to ‘Outside (outer) Thoughts’ — the one’s that jump into your head without any apparent help.

From my understanding of a medical specialist’s way of putting it, a brain can react to every part of your body whenever a nerve tells it something is wrong, or for example you need to run rather than walk. It is connected to those nerves, but it has no nerves itself and cannot therefore react to itself.
This, apparently, is why a brain operation could be carried out without anæsthetics. The brain just cannot feel the pain and it does not therefore react. It can and does react to what is already there, but not to what is not there. Something has to put a thought there in the first place, and the brain is somehow able to reproduce it as an ‘inner thought’.

Dreams and memories are there, jumbled up or clear, because of things you might have done or said recently or a long time ago. A thought doesn’t just ‘get there’, it has to come from somewhere and while I appreciate you may be correct, I just don’t think so.

I have just read what you have written, and my brain knows this and allows me to think about it and reply. That is an ‘inner thought’. If you read carefully what I’ve previously put, you’ll find I refer to ‘Outside (outer) Thoughts’ — the one’s that jump into your head without any apparent help.

From my understanding of a medical specialist’s way of putting it, a brain can react to every part of your body whenever a nerve tells it something is wrong, or for example you need to run rather than walk. It is connected to those nerves, but it has no nerves itself and cannot therefore react to itself.
This, apparently, is why a brain operation could be carried out without anæsthetics. The brain just cannot feel the pain and it does not therefore react. It can and does react to what is already there, but not to what is not there. Something has to put a thought there in the first place, and the brain is somehow able to reproduce it as an ‘inner thought’.
The brain itself isn’t wired up to feel pain if the brain itself is damaged so what? Why do you then make the non-sequitor jump from that to stating that the brain can’t react to itself in anyway whatsoever when that is the very thing that our billions of interconnected neurons do?

I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you're talking about here to be honest - the brain is made up of neurons that are interconnected and interact with each other, there are many types of neurons and different areas with heterogeneous characteristics in the brain that all interact (various glial cells also play roles).

In what way are pain sensors relevant?

The brain obviously does react to itself, it simply wouldn't function otherwise. An example of this comes from fMRI studies where asking subjects to imagine movements activates motor cortices without any actual movement taking place, or closing their eyes and imagining shapes activates the visual centres etc.

Apparently (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,,1799774,00.html) "religious experiences" can be induced by the application of "weak electromagnetic fields" to the temporal lobes. Interesting that we're starting to find a physical basis for these delusions.

Also, prayer and meditation cause blood flow to decrease to certain areas. But then again, meditation is still worth doing as it's been shown to have mental and immune benefits from a couple of sessions a week.

The brain itself isn’t wired up to feel pain if the brain itself is damaged so what? Why do you then make the non-sequitor jump from that to stating that the brain can’t react to itself in anyway whatsoever when that is the very thing that our billions of interconnected neurons do?

Because I can. If you read what I say correctly I’m talking about what I believe, whether it is understandable to you or not. They are my beliefs, not yours. I don’t question what you say or what you believe. Why do you question what I say? If it’s just for the sake of an argument — which it appears to be — I’m not open to debate.

What I say is what I believe, even though I cannot understand what I believe and even though you cannot understand what I believe. Don’t look for an argument over it just to prove you might be right.

And when it comes to your “so what?” So what? If you’re correct, so be it. Just prove it rather than argue over it.

Because what you say and believe are scientifically / medically inaccurate, and we're presenting the evidence against it. I'm never going to leave people believing false information. This catch all of 'I believe therefore you must tolerate me' seems like a weak excuse to dribble on about fantasies as if they had some basis in reality. It may be easier to randomly make up your own reality than going and reading about / finding out about the one that's actually real, but it doesn't make it any less idiotic.

Meditation is still worth doing as it's been shown to have mental and immune benefits from a couple of sessions a week.
Interesting. Do you have any trustworthy references for that?

Mmm, delving deeper I have references but whether they're trustworthy or not I'll leave to your own judgement. It does seem that there are quite a lot of positive papers on this particular subject though. This is probably the best one.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~steve/davidson.pdf

Mmm, delving deeper I have references but whether they're trustworthy or not I'll leave to your own judgement. It does seem that there are quite a lot of positive papers on this particular subject though. This is probably the best one.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~steve/davidson.pdf
Looks solid enough. One thing which occurs to me: if meditation stimulates the immune system, might it be bad for people with auto-immune problems? Or is my layman's (non-)understanding of immunology showing itself there?

I think meditation has also been shown to help in the case of autoimmune problems. It's just a vague memory though, you'll have to do your own search.

peterw - I think the ideas you have about the brain and thought are probably just down to a less than complete understanding of how the brain and mind work. No offense, but if you researched it in depth, I suspect that you'd change your mind.

Your idea of planning - does this mean that you do not believe in free will, Ie you are not making any decisions, it's all already planned? If you do, by extension, why do you bother to take any action/do anything at all. If you simply stop, then it's okay, because it was planned that way.
Non self determination is the basis (IMO) for allowing completely immoral behaviour as anything can be justified as not being your fault.
The aspect of your believe about recognising past activites that seemed trivial at the time but turned out to have an important effect. That's just the normal introspection and pattern matching your mind does.
It's just the same as being involved in a horrible accident, or loosing a loved one to the same, and thinking, it's my fault, if only i'd made that cup of tea quicker this morning they'd have left 5 mins earlier and never have been hit by that bus.
It's a fallacy, you can't predict when you make a cup of tea slowly, what impact that delay might have, it doesn't indicate any planning though, it just indicates the random nature of life (to me anyway).

I guess ultimately you put a lot of weight on what you feel. I'm the opposite, very rational, I put a lot of weight on what I reason.

Because I can. If you read what I say correctly I’m talking about what I believe, whether it is understandable to you or not. They are my beliefs, not yours. I don’t question what you say or what you believe. Why do you question what I say? If it’s just for the sake of an argument — which it appears to be — I’m not open to debate.

What I say is what I believe, even though I cannot understand what I believe and even though you cannot understand what I believe. Don’t look for an argument over it just to prove you might be right.

And when it comes to your “so what?” So what? If you’re correct, so be it. Just prove it rather than argue over it.
You are of course free to believe whatever you like just as I’m free to question any of your beliefs that you post on a public board such as this.

As it happens I never commented on any of your absurd beliefs about predestination and so forth, all I did is correct your factually incorrect assertion that:

“It’s [the brain] basically, in modern terms, an advanced computer which regulates and/or reacts to everything — except itself.”

An erroneous assertion which wasn’t qualified by any kind of ‘I believe that’ type caveat.

If you don’t want to be corrected by others who know a little more than you don’t post your ill-informed personal beliefs as is they’re facts.

The god thing fascinates me.

I simply cannot understand why half of the world thinks there's a god. It's only a short step-change from bowing down to the sun at dawn.

We have a book full of stories, and lots of people belive it. I liked the Terry Pratchet books, but I didn't believe they were true.

What about fairies - should we believe in those too?

you mean the thing about the elephants and the giant tortoise, it's not true? Can you prove it? Maybe they are invisible and don't wish to be seen, can't prove that eh!

* goes off to pray to the colour of magic *