So we have Gracie Barra, Royce Gracie Dronfield, Castle BBA, which is the best place to learn BJJ properly and are there any other teams around?

Try both and see which you prefer.

graciebarra no contest!
The only team that has a blackbelt teaching every week,
to learn properly you need to be taught by experts,
There is regularly more than 1 blackbelt on the mat so the tuition is of a high level.
I`ve been to the other clubs, which are taught by bluebelts.

Always find it odd when folk who are only beginning learning something begin to teach it.It would be like opening a firm of solicitors one week into your law degree!

Prediction: This thread will end in aggressive posturing, with people who don't even train bjj chiming in. It will be largely unhelpful.

graciebarra no contest!
The only team that has a blackbelt teaching every week,
to learn properly you need to be taught by experts,
There is regularly more than 1 blackbelt on the mat so the tuition is of a high level.
I`ve been to the other clubs, which are taught by bluebelts.

Always find it odd when folk who are only beginning learning something begin to teach it.It would be like opening a firm of solicitors one week into your law degree!

The colour of ones belt does not guarantee good teaching ability.
I have heard positive things about all 3 so there is none of this "no contest " about it!

Which one is best at what???
Atmosphere? Standard of tuition? User friendliness?
Competition results?

If it is MMA, then Royce Gracie have done the best at MMA so far (to my knowledge). So far the Royce Gracie lot have done well at MMA.
Gracie Barra do well in the gorilla tournament from the looks of things.
Brian Aikens place have entered one fighter into MMA, Kent Cooper.

Horses for courses I'd say.
None of them deserve to be put down. All strong teams by the sound of things.
Me personally I'd go for the Royce Gracie team purely based on what I have seen of them but GOD would have to invent an 8th day into the week first ;)

As it happens, Legarto is a good teacher although I've only been fortunate enough to attend a couple of his classes. For technical knowledge, I would go for Gracie Barra, but the people I've met from the Royce Gracie club are also top people as well as being physically good athletes (don't know if that's connected to the training). At the end of the day I think it comes down to whichever one's most convenient to get to, particularly for a beginner either should give you a decent initial grounding, although I think that the Gracie Barra club may be able to take technique a little further.

graciebarra no contest!
The only team that has a blackbelt teaching every week,
to learn properly you need to be taught by experts,
There is regularly more than 1 blackbelt on the mat so the tuition is of a high level.
I`ve been to the other clubs, which are taught by bluebelts.
One of my students was a Black Belt in BJJA, yet he failed his Dark Blue belt grading in my style. He went away and attending grading in a different area when I said he wasn't good enough to grade to dark blue yet, as bourne out by him staying a light blue belt.
Light Blue is only half way to black in this style so those bluebelts may be a lot better than your black belts, they may not be, but judging simply by belt colour is not wise as standards vary enormously.
Always find it odd when folk who are only beginning learning something begin to teach it.It would be like opening a firm of solicitors one week into your law degree!
When you teach others you should learn a lot more than by simply passively taking classes. I'd also say, if you haven't taught, you probably aren't ready to be a black belt. Besides, it can take longer/be harder to get blue belt in some styles than a black belt in others. See my example above.

Prediction: This thread will end in aggressive posturing, with people who don't even train bjj chiming in. It will be largely unhelpful.
Unlike this incredibly useful post! :P

If it is MMA, then Royce Gracie have done the best at MMA so far (to my knowledge). So far the Royce Gracie lot have done well at MMA.
Gracie Barra do well in the gorilla tournament from the looks of things.
Brian Aikens place have entered one fighter into MMA, Kent Cooper.


MMA ? Who mentioned MMA ? ;)

If you're serious about learning BJJ you can't get much better than RG or GB. Both are well run friendly clubs with some top guys :thumbsup:
Me personally, I'd go for GB for their greater tuition/experience/knowledge.

You also need to look at someones' history. For example my instructor Tim Maskrey (a few of you will know him) of Wirksworth Derbyshire started teaching at blue belt, but he was already a 3rd degree kick boxer and a 1st degree judo player.

Admittedly he is now a bjj brown belt (from Royce Gracie).

A few of us at Tim's already hold belts in other stuff and I know this to be the case up at the RGJJN. In my case didn't help much when it came to the rolling. In fact as far as I'm concerned didn't help at all:D

The instructors at royce gracie sheff, paul chapman and steve marsden, have all been students of one of the black belt teachers at graciebarra sheff(ben).
Tim was a student of his at graciebarra in notts.
Anyone implying that a bluebelt in bjj can teach as well as the blackbelt that teaches them is an idiot.
Most people who leave graciebarra do so as it is easier to get a belt from another team,they cant live with the standards set by graciebarra.

Bjj is one of the hardest martial arts in the world to gain blackbelt status with graciebarra being one of the hardest of all the teams.

If you want to learn bjj,not kung fu or mma or kickboxing then graciebarrasheff is the best club,it has the best fighters and the best teachers.

I'll second that hardness, took me five-six years to get my blue belt :o

Troy - what style do you practice, and what organisation did that individual get their black belt from? Having met a couple of black belts in Gracie Barra, I'd be extremely confident of their ability to make it in other arts at the very least, and might possibly suspect them of being able to fly, and headbutt brick walls down in their spare time. Okay, perhaps not, but they are serious, dedicated martial artists and athletes who shouldn't have a problem learning physical movements of any sort.

oh yeh,and chefkicker.Want2learns question was,

"where is the best place to learn bjj properly?"

As graciebarra has blackbelts regularly on the mat,some of whom are world champions,

and as these blackbelts are chosen to teach by carlos gracie himself because of their ability to teach what they are experts in,

and as the results gained by gracie barra sheff at bjj tournaments compared to the results gained at bjj by the other school,shows the results of this blackbelt tuition.

And as these blackbelts actually teach the instructors at the other school i`ll just repeat myself shall I chefkicker?

"where is the best place in sheffield to learn bjj properly?"
Gracie barra,no contest.

Anyone implying that a bluebelt in bjj can teach as well as the blackbelt that teaches them is an idiot.
Missing the point of what I was saying. See next quote
Most people who leave graciebarra do so as it is easier to get a belt from another team,they cant live with the standards set by graciebarra. For instance, a graciebarra bluebelt may be a lot better than a blackbelt from another style according to your thinking. So does a black belt from what you consider an inferior/easier style make for a better teacher that a blue belt from your style?
Besides being good at something is quite separate from being able to teach it well.

Troyhark, you are right about my post, but ironically your posts bore out my predictions.

So how is pointing out that different organisations have different standards or that teaching ability is not linked to grade unhelpful? And you don't have to have trained at any the specific clubs that are being argued about to know that. Plus how do you know whether or not I've trained at any the the places mentioned in OP?
No aggression or posturing on my side either as I've been impartial on this matter. Even when I was called an idiot, when my post was misread. So which prediction did I prove correct?

The deeper irony is that your second post is as unhelpful as your first and could be construed as aggressive!:D

Answering my questions would be helpful :) And I don't mean that in an aggressive, posturing way, I am in fact just curious.

apologies troyhark. You are absolutely correct in a lot of what you have said.

Missed your question - I think it was BJJA. Lots of badges, just like a boy scout. He was very good at twiddling and twirling various weapons kata style though.

apologies troyhark. You are absolutely correct in a lot of what you have said.
no problem.:thumbsup:

My original post was a crude attempt at reverse psychology, i've rarely seen a post which puts two clubs head to head acheive anything but chaos.

Missed your question - I think it was BJJA. Lots of badges, just like a boy scout. He was very good at twiddling and twirling various weapons kata style though.

:) You're on the wrong track altogether troy! BJJ is Brazilian Jujitsu. BJJA is the British Jujitsu Association, a regulatory organisation for Traditional Jujitsu.

BJJ is much more of a sport, doesn't involve any weapons, is almost entirely concentrated on ground grappling and submissions and is a useful or even essential adjunct to realistic training methods and MMA. Belts are given after the student is observed fighting others and showing a good level of technique and sportsmanship, rather than a kicking air etc. type grading (I'm afraid I personally rate belts gained in this way as next to meaningless). A blue belt from any BJJ organisation should be more competent than an average traditional 1st dan (in terms of actual fighting ability, I realise this isn't the endpoint of all arts anyway so this comparison might not always be meaningful).

This is literally the top result from putting BJJ into google video search, but is quite topical - what happens when you put a shotokan black belt against a BJJ blue belt? This: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-60512801687928577&q=bjj

And this isn't really topical at all, but here's the best unarmed fighter in the world: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8762652198751834650&q=fedor

Chill out boys. Everyone has there own opinion, and opinions are like arseholes everyone has one !!!

Yup, and just like arseholes, opinions are fun to wave around at people and generally **** them off. Your point being? :o

Lol you gotta love how fedor tears up the rule book. His chosen method for escaping the triangle choke: punch you in the face until you let go!

I'm amazed sometimes that what he does works so incredibly well, because half of it goes against commonly accepted technique altogether - he doesn't have a boxing guard or really defend himself all that much - everything seems to be pure aggression. Does the job though! And blatantly he does have excellent technique in terms of grappling.

So much of fighting is in fitness / strength though - I'm still hurting from getting torn up by someone bigger, stronger and fitter but not necessarily better than me a couple of weeks ago, and decided to turn over a new leaf with training and go for strength a bit more. This admittedly amounts to me doing a few press ups at home every now and then, but it does seem to make a difference!

so which is better? people have mentioned Royce Gracie Dronfields MMA success, this interests me a lot as it is the optimal goal for seeing if ones training is paying off. which fighters do they have and which events have they fought on? my ultimate goal is to win T.U.F reality show.

Mark and Chris have both fought from RGJJN, I don't know if anyone else from the club has. I've trained with both of the above quite a few times, great guys and always good to see them / get some training in. A couple of people from Gracie Barra have also dabbled in MMA and also had a good level of success in BJJ competitions. I don't know much about the black belts there but suspect they've had more than their fair share of competitions, again I don't know if any of these will have been MMA.

There isn't really anywhere in Sheffield specifically catering to MMA as far as I know - odd as there are quite a few places here in Manchester.

Mark and Chris have both fought, I don't know if anyone else from the club has. I've trained with both of the above quite a few times, great guys and always good to see them / get some training in. A couple of people from Gracie Barra have dabbled in MMA (John and Greg spring to mind, may be more) and also had a good level of success in BJJ competitions. I don't know much about the black belts there but suspect they've had more than their fair share of competitions, again I don't know if any of these will have been MMA.

There isn't really anywhere in Sheffield specifically catering to MMA as far as I know - odd as there are quite a few places here in Manchester.

After studying a traditional MA for several years I tried out the Royce Gracie club in Dronfield (train Monday & Wednesday) a few months ago. All I can say is try it out I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Excellent instructors ( Steve, Mark & Lynn) who are more than happy to spend a great deal of time with beginners if thats what you are - plus all who attend are very welcoming, friendly and helpful.

Why not just try both out both BJJ clubs and see what you think. Then make your decision.

There is a MMA comp in Feb 07 in which a few lads from our club will be competing; so why not attend and see if their standard is up to your lofty aspirations (are you serious about TUF?).

so which is better? people have mentioned Royce Gracie Dronfields MMA success, this interests me a lot as it is the optimal goal for seeing if ones training is paying off. which fighters do they have and which events have they fought on? my ultimate goal is to win T.U.F reality show.

Not very often that i do this but I am going put my bit into this:)

I think the point has been missed slightly and loyalty to clubs my have sneak in slightly. I don’t intent to promote either club but will attempt to spread a little light.

Firstly I think wanttolearn was asking in a round about way where to get the best tuition and as much as you like the club your at lets face it no one who knows anything about the sport would ever argue the credentials of the Black Belts teaching at Gracie Barra, just as no one would question Royce's.

and

MMA means nothing to this thread what so ever:gag:

Why anyone would bring mma as an argument for someone’s talent at bjj is beyond me, the number one grappler in the world, Roger Gracie has only just competed in mma! Would you choose to question him??


Once a week there is a Black Belt teaching at Gracie Barra Sheffield, both having recieved there Black Belts from Carlos Gracie jn! Train with them as it will be the best training in bjj you will get in Sheffield!! No Contest:thumbsup:

In response to the first question i think we should all have a royal rumble type event. Then maybe have some tag team matches and then some TLC matches. We all have to grow our hair really long and pump the roids for a bit first.
:P

The thing that makes me laugh about this thread is that i am the first person who actually trains at one of the clubs to post. :hihi:

Know why?!?!?! Cause we don't care who is the best? We all train with our mates and have fun doing it. I train at Gracie Barra because i have massive ties to it and have done for years. (Not just in Sheffield)

This is all a load of b0LL0cks and the people who don't even train bjj have absolutely no opinion. However they are the majority of posters. Unless you have trained at all the clubs in sheffield you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Shall we all stand in a circle and get our knobs out to see whose is the biggest too. (Think i'd win that one tho) Or get our dads to come out???

It makes me laugh how people hide behind avatars because they are afraid to say things out in the open. Everyone knows who i am and if they don't my name is Paul Cole, i am 22 years old, weigh 64 kg and i'm a purple belt in BJJ. I am the youngest person to be awarded that honour by Braulio Estima (3 time World Champion, 5 time Pan American Champion, and 2006 World Cup champion. He has won major titles at every belt) I am at Gracie Barra's academy all the time and teach there monday nights 6 - 8pm.

Also, to the guy who says that a blue belt cannot teach... thanks for your support of barra but you don't know what you're talking about. A man called Ze Radiola in Brazil was last year voted Gracie Barra's most successful instructor ever outside of Rio de Janiero. He has 10 world champions to date, Braulio being one. He started teaching Braulio when he was himself a blue belt and has taken him and a lot of his friends to gold medals. If you have trained at Barra up until recently you will majorly been taught by a blue belt. A blue belt is not an easy thing to get and it takes a lot of mat time and a decent knowledge of the basic techniques. I respect anyone who ties one around their waist.

Sorry for the rant guys.

PS All BJJ derives from Gracie Barra. Look at the history of it. There isn't a place in the world who's roots don't go back to Gracie Barra Rio de Janiero.

thanks jon. you have made me look a liar by posting while i was typing my reply.

Your typing skills are obviously far superior to my own. PLEASE..... YOU MUST TEACH ME THE WAY OF THE FAST FINGER ON MONDAY!!!!

PS Is it due to all the tapping you do that you type so fast???? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Is it just me or did this thread turn in to quite a good one...... i would have put money on fisticuffs by bed time, well done to all involved for being grown up and not making anything personal.

just for the record 3 fighters from RGs have fought MMA and all have won, and in the last BJJ comp 4 out of 6 Barra fighters got medals, but all had tough fights.

so make up you own mind Royce students train at Barra and Barra students train at Royce, we all train together. its how we get so good :hihi:

but Barra students are better looking (we don't get hit in the face):hihi:

i think we all posted at the same time,,,,,, now i'm lost

Oh dear!! You will pay for that tiny:thumbsup:

And Gregg you a fart!

Unfortunatly it shows one again the lack of understanding people have that are new to and outside the sport so I second the wee man, if you dont train in the sport or have very little experiance in the sport butt out and let the guys that have a clue what there talkin about just give the facts not personal bias.

Go train at both, make sure you train with Lagarto and Ben as oftern as poss and dont miss a Royce seminar!!!:D

Nice one !!!!

John ........ i a fart... oh i'm going to tap (you/to you) so bad tomorrow..

i'm currently looking for a bjj club to train at in sheffield during the new year, so i've trawled through this and other bjj posts on this forum...

interesting to note that this thread has pretty much been done before, and initiated by the same person...is that person not training at gracie barra sheffield now then, because they said it would be there 'new home' if i remember rightly?

it's also apparent that there has been some aggressive posturing in other bjj threads, as jimanyjim predicted might happen here - do i detect a hint of trying to stir things up?

want2leran - interesting screen name - perhaps you should start with philosophy to help you understand the futility of your question, and then maybe the social sciences in order to learn how to better construct a more productive question? :hihi: in a later post bjjman (excellent post by the way)claims most of the posters here don't train at either club? does this include you? still 'homeless' after all this time?

chefkicker is right - best for what? all people can do is provide statistics (e.g. number of blue/purple belts, how often frequented by black belt instructors, ratio of instructors to students), but even then that doesn't provide the full picture. perhaps the clubs should carry out a customer satisfaction survey? it's also a case of best for who, which depends on indivdual requirements and practicalities.

it has been suggested that a blue belt can't teach as well as a blackbelt, which again has been discussed on another thread. borrowing from that, it is the case that the best sports person doesn't neccessarily make the best coach, and conversely a good coach wasn't necessairly the best player. take football as an example - think of the best players - pele, puskas, moore, cruyff, platini, etc. etc. - then compare them to the best coaches - not much crossover, and it's the case with all sports i can think of - tennis, golf, boxing...

i have trained in bjj, and i have trained under lagarto - he's without doubt the most spectacular and brilliantly skilled person i've seen for a longish period of time, but the best teacher i've ever had was a blue belt (now purple). being good at something suggests being able to apply knowledge - being able to teach indicates the ability to furnish others with that knoweldge, which means effectively communicating ones ideas - the two aren't the same. for example, i have had techniques demonstrated to me by blackbelts and not been able to apply them, but then a bluebelt at the same session has communicated the identical technique via a different method, and hey presto, got it! maybe that's down to me and not the blackbelt, but again it shows there's a lot more to good teaching than being able to do something.

hopefully looking forward to meeting some of you guys in the new year if i stay in sheffield for a while (the ones who train at the bjj clubs anyway) :hihi:

Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!I gnore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ig nore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ignore!Ign ore!Ignore!Ignore!

Wow

I'm not impressed with those people who are stirring things up. It's not in the spirit of the sport.

Bothr RGJJN and GB are great clubs. If you are interested in BJJ give them both a try. Both clubs offer different things (atmosphere, class sizes, variety of training partners, skill etc.). However, both clubs teach BJJ i.e. really good technique.

Paul (GB), John (GB), Steve (RGJJN), Lynn (RGJJN), Mark (RGJJN) and Paul Chapman (RGJJN et al.) give up a lot of their spare time to run two great clubs. Thanks guys. Have a Merry Christmas all!

Regards

Chris

Quite a funny thread when all's done.

BTW - Which club is it (or style or whatever you call it) that is taught at the 393 club?

things change and i never made it to sheffield the first time. and so here i am again, i couldnt find my original thread so posed the question again, is that such a bad thing?

why do schools have league tables? so parents can find out which is best for there kids or to start a fight between them.

I am serious about carrying on my BJJ and also about TUF.

aggressive posturing etc isnt down to me, more those who replied.

:) You're on the wrong track altogether troy! BJJ is Brazilian Jujitsu. BJJA is the British Jujitsu Association, a regulatory organisation for Traditional Jujitsu.
I know what the difference between the two is CF, but that wasn't relevent to the point I was making, which was - a black belt in one style of JJ failing to achieve a Dark Blue belt [which is halfway to Dan] in another style of JJ.
Different styles of 'same' martial art, but different belts and very different standards. You get the same thing in all martial arts that are similar/supposedly the same.
A blue belt from any BJJ organisation should be more competent than an average traditional 1st dan (in terms of actual fighting ability, I realise this isn't the endpoint of all arts anyway so this comparison might not always be meaningful).Like I said a Black belt from BJJA was unable to get a Dark Blue in my style. Having said that if someone from BJJ got attacked by someone with a weapon they would probably do poorly compared to someone who trained with weapons. Every martial art specialises/has biases and as a result has strengths but also weaknesses.

BJJ clubs though don't differ so much as traditional jj schools (which can appear completely different).
As I understand it a grade awarded in any BJJ club should be valid in any other BJJ club, even if it's a different team.

I'm starting to hate the phrase aggressive posturing. What does it even mean?:confused:

I know what the difference between the two is CF, but that wasn't relevent to the point I was making, which was - a black belt in one style of JJ failing to achieve a Dark Blue belt [which is halfway to Dan] in another style of JJ.


Oh. I read the first page of exchanges again, you're right and I'm daft, I understand the point you were making now and agree fully. Standards do seem to vary wildly among trad. martial arts associations and even between clubs of the same association, which unfortunately makes belts meaningless to someone such as myself who doesn't know the ins and outs of every organisation / club out there - seems to vary from blithering, geeky dungeons and dragonsesque bedroom-warrior incompetence to truly excellent bruce lee types without any real correlation to grades.

BJJ as a style is far more consistent from my experience (of three different organisations) and I'd always have respect for someone with a blue belt or above in BJJ, simply because it is always going to be something that is difficult to achieve. Oh, and purple is a whole different level - blue indicates competence but purple belts are Good.

As mentioned, neither club specifically caters to MMA as far as I am aware on more than an occassional, playful level and while either club would be a great part of a comprehensive mixed training regime they shouldn't really be compared on a facet that they don't focus on.

things change and i never made it to sheffield the first time. and so here i am again, i couldnt find my original thread so posed the question again, is that such a bad thing?

why do schools have league tables? so parents can find out which is best for there kids or to start a fight between them.

I am serious about carrying on my BJJ and also about TUF.

aggressive posturing etc isnt down to me, more those who replied.

i found it easy enough and i'm new to the forum...maybe you should learn how to use the search facility too?

you don't really think school league tables are useful do you?

things change and i never made it to sheffield the first time. and so here i am again, i couldnt find my original thread so posed the question again, is that such a bad thing?

why do schools have league tables? so parents can find out which is best for there kids or to start a fight between them.

I am serious about carrying on my BJJ and also about TUF.

aggressive posturing etc isnt down to me, more those who replied.

just try both, make your own mind up.

GOOD LUCK

Yeah, this whole thing's going on a little long. If you're serious about this stuff get off the forum and get training.

so which is better? people have mentioned Royce Gracie Dronfields MMA success, this interests me a lot as it is the optimal goal for seeing if ones training is paying off. which fighters do they have and which events have they fought on? my ultimate goal is to win T.U.F reality show.

Once again better for what?
If it is MMA you are after, quite a common choice tends to be the combination:
Ground Game = RGBJJ + Stand Up= AFK
:thumbsup:

Having said that Brian Aikens gym and Jon Goldsons Barra gym are good clubs too. Its all down to what you want.

Once again better for what?
If it is MMA you are after, quite a common choice tends to be the combination:
Ground Game = RGBJJ + Stand Up= AFK

:loopy: :loopy: :loopy: :hihi:

Having said that if someone from BJJ got attacked by someone with a weapon they would probably do poorly compared to someone who trained with weapons. Every martial art specialises/has biases and as a result has strengths but also weaknesses.[/QUOTE] from Troy Hark above.

Just been reading Renzo Gracie who says that, in terms of self-defence, all BJJ claims is that it can help you to defend yourself against a single weaponless opponent. Isn't it nice to hear realistic claims made in the martial arts instead of the ridiculous statements many arts make of being able to defend yourself against weapons and/or multiple attackers?

Having said that if someone from BJJ got attacked by someone with a weapon they would probably do poorly compared to someone who trained with weapons. Every martial art specialises/has biases and as a result has strengths but also weaknesses. from Troy Hark above.

?[/QUOTE]



I think most Martial Artists would struggle to cope with someone armed with a weapon, a knive.

Its unrealistic to say they would do worse, than someone who has trained weapons. For a start most of the training is sparring/rolling and so they have a good idea of which techniques work against someone fighting back.

Clearly any training done against a tanto (tanto randori for instance) is going to be better preparation for defending yourself from a knife attack than grappling on the floor.

Claims to be 100% effective weapons are silly, claims that an art will teach you to defend yourself against weapons are not silly, or at least not if they do actually train against weapons.

Of course if you train with weapons you will be better prepered than someone who does not.
If your chosen system does not cover ie. edged weapon defense then how can you defend against it ?????????

Sorry to go away from the original topic !!!!!

Defending against weapons?! dont be naive here. In reality, the most sensible thing to do is to leg it. If you hang around when someone pulls a knife on you then you are a fool (at best) or a dead fool (at worst).

The major difference between BJJ and most other martial arts is the pressure testing in reality based situations (1 on 1 and no weapons). It was through this type of pressure testing that MMA was created. Any art that applies this strategy can be successful.
However, with respect to weapons, it is moronic to think that rolling around with a wooden knife and with predetermined moves will equip you in the event that some idiot jumps you with a knife. There has been no consideration given to the fact that you experience a massive adrenalin dump. Under normal circumstances you will just **** yourself. Faced with a fight or flight dilemma you should, as previously stated, use your adrenalin dump to fuel your sprint to safety.
At worst, you could be fooled into thinking that your "knife" sparring has given you the tools to defend yourself in this situation. This false confidence could lead you to hang around. Congratulations! you are now the proud owner of not one, but TWO belly buttons.

In bjj the training is focussed on the application of techniques against a resisting opponent. This is then taken a step further in competition whereby you have both a resisting opponent and an adrenalin dump.

The key here is that any reality based training will aid you. You cannot recreate reality based situation with weapons safely and get the adrenalin dump required. Therefore you cannot actually prepare yourself adequately for this scenario. Get real and get running.

By way of illustrating a point, copy and paste the url below and see the difference between someone who thinks they know what they're doing, and someone who trains in a pressure tested manner.

comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=1469

Back to the actual topic though. Best standard of BJJ in sheffield IMO is gracie barra

Defending against weapons?! dont be naive here. In reality, the most sensible thing to do is to leg it. If you hang around when someone pulls a knife on you then you are a fool (at best) or a dead fool (at worst).
I don't believe anyone will disagree with you. But that doesn't alter the fact that if you don't have the option to run then having trained against a blade gives you a better chance than having trained in grappling.

The major difference between BJJ and most other martial arts is the pressure testing in reality based situations (1 on 1 and no weapons). It was through this type of pressure testing that MMA was created. Any art that applies this strategy can be successful.
However, with respect to weapons, it is moronic to think that rolling around with a wooden knife and with predetermined moves
Predetermined being, i'm going to try and stick this in you?

will equip you in the event that some idiot jumps you with a knife. There has been no consideration given to the fact that you experience a massive adrenalin dump. Under normal circumstances you will just **** yourself. Faced with a fight or flight dilemma you should, as previously stated, use your adrenalin dump to fuel your sprint to safety.
At worst, you could be fooled into thinking that your "knife" sparring has given you the tools to defend yourself in this situation. This false confidence could lead you to hang around. Congratulations! you are now the proud owner of not one, but TWO belly buttons.
I happen to agree that defending yourself against a knife is a very bad place to be, and that you are at the very least going to get cut, but I'm not following your argument. Are you saying that since knives are dangerous we shouldn't ever train against them? We should invest in running trainers and hope to god that we're never cornered?

In bjj the training is focussed on the application of techniques against a resisting opponent.
This is exactly how tanto randori works, one person has a knife and their intent is to stab or slice up the other person, it's as pressure tested as you can get without actually risking dying.
This is then taken a step further in competition whereby you have both a resisting opponent and an adrenalin dump.

The key here is that any reality based training will aid you. You cannot recreate reality based situation with weapons safely and get the adrenalin dump required. Therefore you cannot actually prepare yourself adequately for this scenario. Get real and get running.
Very keen on the leg it scenario, as am I, but you do seem to be ignoring that it's not always and option

By way of illustrating a point, copy and paste the url below and see the difference between someone who thinks they know what they're doing, and someone who trains in a pressure tested manner.

comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=1469

Back to the actual topic though. Best standard of BJJ in sheffield IMO is gracie barra

Rolling around with a wooden knife doing pre set moves !!!! Don,t train knife defense in our club like that bro !!!
Yes bang on if faced with a knife run ! some times this is not possible though.
To train knife defense correctly you must learn principles and train them under pressure.

When we train knife defense under pressure you do get an adrenalin dump, not as large as a real attack though.

I love BJJ and train this 4 times a week, but it is a sport, I have competed loads of times in stand up and ground , never had an adrenalin dump, few butterflies though.

Keep safe.

Adding to Cyclone's comments
However, with respect to weapons, it is moronic to think that rolling around with a wooden knife and with predetermined moves will equip you in the event that some idiot jumps you with a knife.
Hence you train/grade with real knives/chains/swords. People get sliced too if they didn't defend properly. BTW you start with rubber, progress with wood and onto real knives.
As for wooden weapons not being dangerous, I've seen people knocked out cold with them, besides a cosh is a very efective weapon and if you know what you are doing it will trump a knife. I also believe wooden knives were banned from one martial art many years ago after someone got killed by one. He landed on it, as it landed handle down, pointy bit upwards.

There has been no consideration given to the fact that you experience a massive adrenalin dump. Under normal circumstances you will just **** yourself. Faced with a fight or flight dilemma you should, as previously stated, use your adrenalin dump to fuel your sprint to safety. I've been attacked by yobs in the street/nightclub and contrary to your comments, I've not experienced what you describe. I simply stayed calm and prevented myself from being attacked and used what I learned in the Dojo. In fact it was less worrying than mat work as there isn't much time to think about stuff, you simply get on with it.

Running away is first resort, but you don't always have that option. That's when your MA training can prove useful or not.

The major difference between BJJ and most other martial arts is the pressure testing in reality based situations (1 on 1 and no weapons).
So what happens when several people have a go at you? Or if they are armed, both quite real situations.

All MAs are good at what they specialise in and weak in some other areas. Without exception.

This is exactly how tanto randori works, one person has a knife and their intent is to stab or slice up the other person, it's as pressure tested as you can get without actually risking dying.


This is my point. Without the risk of dying. Therefore you loose the reality. In a grappling scenario it is full contact. Should you be foolish and choose not to tap, you will be rendered unconcious or get injured. That's why you tap. This gives you a hint of reality and adds a little bit of fear factor into the equation. The person defending the technique will not want to get injured and will resist as much as possible. This in turn requires the person applying the technique to apply it correctly or it will not be effective.
The benefit of this is that you know it will work.

On the flip side you cannot IMO achieve this with a wooden tanto. Because at the end of the day it is a wooden knife and both participants know this. One thing i am interested in is how this randori is carried out.
Do you both start standing?
Is it face to face or from random directions?
Does the person being atttacked know where the attack is coming from?
Are there actual techniques or is it jsut a case of using instinctive reactions?
Does it go to ground (as most tussles do, with or without weapons)?
Are there multiple attackers?

I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff



I happen to agree that defending yourself against a knife is a very bad place to be, and that you are at the very least going to get cut, but I'm not following your argument. Are you saying that since knives are dangerous we shouldn't ever train against them? We should invest in running trainers and hope to god that we're never cornered?


There is an element of hope in us all really isnt there. We hope day to day that we dont have to deal with any violent confrontation full stop. The knife scenario is a difficult one, but there will be only rare occassions whereby you are stuck with no way out. This can occur without knives too. Here you will be presented with your adrenalin dump (something that you are ill prepared for with a knife however you look at it). Are there a number of assailants here? Realistically common sense would suggst that you use your wits and not blindly walk into situations where you are vulnerable. However, chances are you are being mugged. Give them what they want.

I am just very concerened that martial arts that purport to prepare people for real life situations need to deliver. Because you might THINK you are ready to deal with a person armed with a knife. in reality you WONT. Unless you can fully recreate a REAL LIFE situation you are only giving people false confidence and that is more dangerous than not having a plan at all other than to run.

At the end of the day, i am happy with my strategy. I will leave others to be happy with theirs.

Did you just say that you're critising training that you've never even seen, never mind tried!

I'll happily talk about BJJ, but at least I've been to some classes.

I've been attacked by yobs in the street/nightclub and contrary to your comments, I've not experienced what you describe. I simply stayed calm and prevented myself from being attacked and used what I learned in the Dojo. In fact in was less worrying as there isn't as much time to think about stuff, you simply get on with it.


So you are saying that you have never experienced the most basic of human instincts, the reaction that kept cavemen alive. The fight or flight syndrome is prevalent in the entire animal kingdom and possibly makes the difference between those species that are extinct and those that are here today.

Hi Fingercuffs

If you are interested you can come to my club when we are doing knife. this way you can see what goes off, PM me if you would like to train with us.

Craig

Did you just say that you're critising training that you've never even seen, never mind tried!

I'll happily talk about BJJ, but at least I've been to some classes

Who said i was criticising? i was merely questioning it. If it cannot stand up to some testing questions, how will it stack up against reality?

If you read my statement
Do you both start standing?
Is it face to face or from random directions?
Does the person being atttacked know where the attack is coming from?
Are there actual techniques or is it jsut a case of using instinctive reactions?
Does it go to ground (as most tussles do, with or without weapons)?
Are there multiple attackers?

I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff


But, that's fair enough. I have done martial arts since i was 9, i am now 30. i have dabbled in many styles and some of which have purported to show defences against weapons. This is why i am intrigued.

An adrenalin dump has the same effect however it's triggered. You learn to understand what that effect is and how it affects your abilities.
We use real weapons in training sometimes, for high grades only, this certainly focusses the attention, although i'm sure there'd be more adrenalin in a real fight. Having said that though, I know full well that in BJJ if I tap, my attacker will let go, so there's no massive fear based adrenalin dump caused by BJJ sparring either.

At the end of the day you're critisising something here that you've not tried and offering no viable alternative.
Get some experience in actually training against weapons and i'll be more likely to give your opinions some weight. At the moment though it's all theory.

Defending against weapons?! dont be naive here.

Was that not a critisism? If not maybe you should choose your words more carefully.

Who said i was criticising? i was merely questioning it. If it cannot stand up to some testing questions, how will it stack up against reality?
You weren't questioning, you said that knife defences didn't work and that it was naeve to believe they did. You then said that only full resistance training (ala BJJ) is effective.
You only asked any questions after people told you that you were wrong.

It was not a criticism is was a statement of opionion. I do not want to get embroiled in semantics here. I have asked some genuine questions. I would also like to know the answers.




Lotar - Thanks for the kind offer, but i am not that keen on knives generally. Hence why i stated that i would run if someone pulled one. This strategy has stood me in good stead so far.

Do you both start standing?
Generally yes, it's difficult enough to defend yourself from an unarmed attacker if you start off lying down and they don't

Is it face to face or from random directions?
Depends, randori style is normally face to face. We also have training drills where the attacks can come from anywhere in your field of vision, but these aren't full resistance

Does the person being atttacked know where the attack is coming from?
Yes, otherwise it would be a very very short fight, although that said, it's a common myth that being stabbed once kills you. The average knifing victim has something like 30 stab wounds
Are there actual techniques or is it jsut a case of using instinctive reactions?
Yes there are techiques, exactly the same as there are in BJJ and most other martial arts. It would just be a brawl otherwise with one side of the fight having a knife
Does it go to ground (as most tussles do, with or without weapons)?
It can do, but if it does you're almost certainly dead or about to become so. Unless it was your choice of course. I don't teach people to take fights to the floor through choice, as you don't want to be rolling in broken glass and you don't want your assailants mates to kick you in the head
Are there multiple attackers?
Again we do both single and multiple attack scenarios.

You weren't questioning, you said that knife defences didn't work and that it was naeve to believe they did. You then said that only full resistance training (ala BJJ) is effective.

This topic was started about BJJ. This is what i practice. I questioned some of the statements out of genuine interest.
I then tried to bring it back on topic.

Regardless, i do still think it's naive, possibly even stupid to think you can defend yourself against weapons.

I keep on getting presented with "what if" scenarios. What if it is a crazed shizophrenic. Do you think you are sufficiently trained for this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/9/newsid_2543000/2543755.stm

Lotar - Thanks for the kind offer, but i am not that keen on knives generally. Hence why i stated that i would run if someone pulled one. This strategy has stood me in good stead so far.

If you apply that strategy to everything then you'd be better off in a running club than doing BJJ surely? Presumably you'd agree that running is a better defence than wrestling on the floor if attacked without a weapon?

Many thanks for those responses :) .

This topic was started about BJJ. This is what i practice. I questioned some of the statements out of genuine interest.
I then tried to bring it back on topic.

Regardless, i do still think it's naive, possibly even stupid to think you can defend yourself against weapons.

I keep on getting presented with "what if" scenarios. What if it is a crazed shizophrenic. Do you think you are sufficiently trained for this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/9/newsid_2543000/2543755.stm

You train in the hope that you'll never have to apply anything you learn.
Hopefully i'll never be cornered with a knife. Hopefully two big blokes will never decide to use me as a punchbag and hopefully i'll never end up wrestling a single guy wearing lycra or a Gi on a matted floor.
If any of the above happens I've at least trained in something that gives me experience of that situation. I'd rather have that than just an opinion that if someone corners me with a knife it's time to say my prayers.

If you apply that strategy to everything then you'd be better off in a running club than doing BJJ surely? Presumably you'd agree that running is a better defence than wrestling on the floor if attacked without a weapon?

Yes i agree that running is a best plan in most cases, weapon or not.

I am too pretty for fighting and generally steer clear. But the running would be boring.

Hi Fingercuffs

No probs bro!
Remember though, sometimes you can,t run or your mate, wife,child etc cannot run as fast as you.
You may have to fight , there are some crazy ****ers in this world.

Hope you find your answers bro !!!

Craig

No probs bro!
Remember though, sometimes you can,t run or your mate, wife,child etc cannot run as fast as you.
You may have to fight , there are some crazy ****ers in this world.


Good points. A friend of mine who is a manager of a supermarket was recently a victim of an armed robbery. Two guys had machetes. The company policy is always to give them what they want, no heroes etc. There were two female staff so no choice of running.

Ultimately everything was ok, although he was ****** that he couldnt do anything, i still think there was nothing he could have done. My concern is that in this scenario, had he had some instruction. Rather than do what he did (which was the right thing), he could have tried to be a hero. TO save the stores cash and to protect the two women. He would have been maimed or killed.


However, it is a good point about friends and family. Should this situation ever arise. I would be quite prepared to put my life on the line to protect those dearest to me and would just turn into a whirling mist of fury and dismiss those fools :D .

So you are saying that you have never experienced the most basic of human instincts, the reaction that kept cavemen alive. The fight or flight syndrome is prevalent in the entire animal kingdom and possibly makes the difference between those species that are extinct and those that are here today.
Of course I have. The first few times I had to get up in the middle of the mat and do stuff in front of others was terrifying. But you get used to it. And the levels of danger/threat increase as you get better and you get used to it.

But the main difference is you have time to think about the frightening thing you are going to do and hence the butterflies. In reality, it happens and your [trained] relexes kick in and you are too busy dealing with the situation to panic. But you also learn how to stay calm and focused under pressure. On the several occasions I remember, I was very detached and not frightened, more irritated by the bully than anything else. If anything I remember thinking how interesting it was to be able to try out my MA skills.

You admit to having no experience of what you doubt works. I've tried it and it can work. Been other clubs and the training doesn't - such as the clip you linked to. Which started with fake rubbish attacks, so no surprise the guy got flattened. If you do real attacks, where you will get punched/kicked if you don't don't do something, you learn pretty quickly to look after yourself. Getting people to attack properly is the hardest though. Esp Uni students!

Regardless, i do still think it's naive, possibly even stupid to think you can defend yourself against weapons. My next door but one neighbour back home was murdered by her crazed chef with a meat cleaver. It was a take away restaurant BTW. My cousin had just walked in and witnessed what happened.
Now if she had done some weapon training, she would have reacted differently to how she did and may have avoided the worst of the attack and possibly survived. As it was she simply stayed in place and lifted arm up. Not a good defence. Many 'natural' instincts to a blade attack are simply not good. Unlearning these in a safe environment and learning the right moves/reflexes will give you a better chance when things are less safe.
Not use of the phrase better chance. Would a better chance of not dying be a good thing compared to no chance?

Having been faced with both knives and guns in Northern Ireland my experience is the adrenalin dump you get means that you lose all your fine motor skills. The knife defences I have been taught in karate and traditional ju jitsu are based on fine motor movements. I have never been taught a knife defence that I think will work in real life. Karl Tanswell 'stab' programme has been mentioned and I would be interested to see it and if Lotar gives me details of his club I would love to come watch, (this is the beauty of this forum) and hopefully learn.

I agree with themadrev.

Just as a point of note, Karl Tanswell is extremely good at what he does and has many years of experience in BJJ, reality based self defence and sefl defence against weapons. I am of the understanding that a few years back he was the victim of a knife attack. Anyone know anything about this? It would be interesting to know, as i would consider someone of his kaliber to be well prepared for such a situation, yet it seems it did not stand him in good stead

Hi Madrev

Check out our website, www.kapapsheffield.co.uk
Anyone genuinely interested come along, We have various other martial artists and instructors train with us, even a couple of BJJ guys.
Our only criteria is leave all ego,s at the door !!!!

I look forward to meeting and training with you.

Just as a point of note, Karl Tanswell is extremely good at what he does and has many years of experience in BJJ, reality based self defence and sefl defence against weapons. I am of the understanding that a few years back he was the victim of a knife attack. Anyone know anything about this? It would be interesting to know, as i would consider someone of his kaliber to be well prepared for such a situation, yet it seems it did not stand him in good stead
I knew a veruy good MA who told some amusing stories about real fights.
One he did Shotokan Karate and when attacked did the most perfect series of punches. His opponent look a bit baffled and hit him very hard. Every perfect shotokan punch was pulled and caused no harm.
Two - after learning something more useful, another confrontation. He was ****** [v.drunk] and every punch missed.

I can't find any references to Karl having been attacked with a knife. Link maybe?

Just watched a video of the stab seminar in copenhagen, his techniques wouldn't look completely out of place on my mat, and his training methods seem to be very similar, apart from having the kit to pad someone up which I don't have.

Off Topic - Cyclone, your mailbox is a bit full!
Are you not at CG anymore either?

It was something that was mentioned in coversation. The only reference i could find was on another forum below is the extract

"Anthony,
Just as a side note Karl Tanswell was attacked by two 'joggers' outside his house one morning. They caught him unawares & he was cut/slashed five times around the head & neck. He survived .
1. you will get cut in a knife fight
2. technique without reflex is worthless
3. most knife attacks are survivable"

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/21357/25985.html

Seems like a fair comment if it's true. You can't defend yourself from an attack you don't see.

Karl Tanswell's place was recommended to me by a few people.

Unfortunately, after going three times I realised my initial impression of the place was correct, a couple of the instructors (not all, some were sound) treated beginners / first timers / me like crap, seemed too interested in making money and left me with a bad taste. I won't be going back or recommending it to anyone. I'm sure the technical side's good but it wouldn't have been worth the atmosphere and attitude problems that went with it.

Where I'm training now (Manchester Ground N Pound) is excellent, social atmosphere and resistance training, a place where I feel like I'm learning and getting fitter

Hi Lotar, it was good to meet you last night. I will come along and train some time (I'm afraid this time of the year is very busy for me!!). Crayfish, sorry to hear that about Karl Tanswell's place; I was thinking about going for a day to train. Hopefully we'll see you in Sheff again soon - any more modelling assignments mate?? Happy Christmas!

Hi Lotar, it was good to meet you last night. I will come along and train some time (I'm afraid this time of the year is very busy for me!!). Crayfish, sorry to hear that about Karl Tanswell's place; I was thinking about going for a day to train. Hopefully we'll see you in Sheff again soon - any more modelling assignments mate?? Happy Christmas!

Hey MadRev! Yep, I'll be back for Christmas... Don't suppose you know what the training schedule's like between the 22nd Dec and 1st Jan?

Don't let me put you off Tanswell's altogether, a lot of people seem to get on with it - maybe they just took exception to my face, or something (Understandable, after all!). Happy Christmas to you too mate!

I'm not sure as I'll be collapsing in Liverpool for a week after Christmas services; catching up with sleep and doing some running. Best give John or the wee man Paul a shout (truebjj and Bjjman). Ben Popps is taking the Monday night class now it's well worth getting along. Cheers.

Ok, to take this a stage further.

I am still not entirely convinced about this sort of training "preparing" a person sufficiently for knives. I do, however, concede the point that it is not always feasible to escape. and hence you would have to stand your ground. Under these circumstances i would generally say give them what they want and then live to see another day.

Many 'natural' instincts to a blade attack are simply not good. Unlearning these in a safe environment and learning the right moves/reflexes will give you a better chance when things are less safe.
Not use of the phrase better chance. Would a better chance of not dying be a good thing compared to no chance?


I think it interesting that this training may give a better chance of surviving. What if it is no longer a knife and you are faced with a gun? Similar to themadrev i have also spent time in northern ireland and have been faced with guns and rifles. Not once did i contemplate anything other than being a yes man.

2 well known BJJ black belts were walking across london bridge one morning, a mugger armed with a knife tried to steal there wallets.

after a brief conversation with each other in portugeuse, the mugger was left helplessly lying on the floor.(only one of them dealt with the mugger, the other watched)

Hi Madrev

Good to see you too.
You will be welcome to train with us anytime bro.

Craig

Ok, to take this a stage further.

I am still not entirely convinced about this sort of training "preparing" a person sufficiently for knives. I do, however, concede the point that it is not always feasible to escape. and hence you would have to stand your ground. Under these circumstances i would generally say give them what they want and then live to see another day.



I think it interesting that this training may give a better chance of surviving. What if it is no longer a knife and you are faced with a gun? Similar to themadrev i have also spent time in northern ireland and have been faced with guns and rifles. Not once did i contemplate anything other than being a yes man.



If faced with someone armed with a gun.


1) poo your pants
2) Then run.

or

Run first



No serious, can't see any martial art being effective against someone armed with a gun

A gun held at close range is easier to defend against than a knife .
A knife can,t run out of bullets or jam.
But yes you would **** your pants !!!!! LOL

See, when i said i would run and that i didnt know any knife defenses i was flamed. What if you cant run etc. And, like i said, some legitimate points were raised. So i am thinking that with gun crime on the rise (nottingham is the gun capital of the uk and it's only down the road) the points that were raised to me about knife attacks, should also apply to gun situations too. I.e what if you are faced with multiple attackers? What if you cannot run away (wife, kids etc)?

Now in the past, as i have already said, when faced with these situations (which i have in real life) i have been a yes man, been submissive and thankfully "got the hell out of there". I have the same plan for knife attacks. Fundamentally, i do not see a difference between the two. You are faced with a potentially life threatening situation. Both could severly infure you, and you wont necessarily die. I was quite bluntly told i should have a plan (i do, it is to run like *****). What is your plan when you are faced with a gun gentlemen (and ladies)?

How do you train for such a situation? This brings me back to my original point. How can you inject some realism into this type of scenario and still keep it safe enough to practise? Is this a foolhardy pursuit (can you seriously, hand on heart recommend to someone that they should take on a gunman and that the techniques you have shown them are failsafe)?

Knife defences are not taught so that you can say "no, you're not having my wallet", they are last ditch defences if doing as you were told didn't let you escape unharmed.

If you are convinced that you are going to be killed anyway, then I'd suggest that trying to do something against the gun toting maniac is a slightly better plan than waiting until you're killed. Only slightly mind.
It's all about how you read the situation isn't it. Do they want your wallet, or did you witness a murder and are about to be made to stay quiet, permanently.

Hopefully nobody ever claims that any technique is foolproof, not even BJJ techniques are foolproof are they? The key point isn't whether they are fool proof or not, it's whether they increase your odds of surviving or not.

2 well known BJJ black belts were walking across london bridge one morning, a mugger armed with a knife tried to steal there wallets.

after a brief conversation with each other in portugeuse, the mugger was left helplessly lying on the floor.(only one of them dealt with the mugger, the other watched)

TRUE STORY!

With regards to knife defence. We did a bit last night at Jujitsu. Old T-Shirts and Marker Pens.

Everyone was marked all over (i.e very dead indeed).

The bottom line is that you'll probably die if faced with a knife, so just run, or give them your wallet... or bend over (whatever they want) haha :suspect:

With regards to knife defence. We did a bit last night at Jujitsu. Old T-Shirts and Marker Pens.

Everyone was marked all over (i.e very dead indeed).

The bottom line is that you'll probably die if faced with a knife, so just run, or give them your wallet... or bend over (whatever they want) haha :suspect:
Maybe you should learn better techniques!!:D
But even with better techniques getting a few marks would be expected. Besides if you get a few slices befor you managed to snap your assailants arm in half, surely that is better than being gutted.
A few years ago I saw [on Calendar or similar] SY Police training against knives. The techniques would get them killed, they were awful. And this is the police being taught.

As for gun defences, there are none, unless the gun wielder is stupid enough to get quite close to you. Again these defences simply give you a better chance than not knowing them. Just like MA gives you a better chance in a fight than no MA. Nothing is guaranteed in a fight situation.

Maybe you should learn better techniques!!:D


Or just run. Honestly :suspect:

Or just run. Honestly :suspect:
You seem to be mising the point somewhat.
You use these techniques only if you cannot leg it and a knife heads towards you. It's been said several times in the thread. Exactly the same as you only use defence against an unarmed attacker if you cannot leg it.

What is your plan when you are faced with a gun gentlemen (and ladies)?

How do you train for such a situation? This brings me back to my original point. How can you inject some realism into this type of scenario and still keep it safe enough to practise? Is this a foolhardy pursuit (can you seriously, hand on heart recommend to someone that they should take on a gunman and that the techniques you have shown them are failsafe)?
No self defence is failsafe. None at all. Against unarmed attackers or those armed with weapons. It simply gives you a better chance than no training. Only a naive person would claim otherwise.
Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

Actually being attacked with a weapon is easier to defend in one respect as the weapon tends to signify/limit the type of attack. If someone is standing in front of you brandishing a cosh with his right hand he's less likely to punch with his left or kick you, than if he had no weapon. As weaponless, he can kick or punch with either foot/hand or even try grappling.

As for training with guns, you use replicas and if trigger is pulled before you deal with problem, the technique can be considered to have failed. You don't need live ammo to train this sort of defence as it's kind of obvious it hasn't worked.

train gun defenses using water pistols

No need to patronise.

I have been told that i should have same strategy regardless of what i am faced with. Which is to have trained for all eventualities.
My current choice is to avoid it wherever possible.
From what i can see from the comments there are some reasons why i couldnt evade a knife confrontation. If presented with a situation where there is a knife, why should it be any different to if it is a gun, or a baseball bat, sword etc. A weapon is a weapon, and the odds are stacked against you.

I think it is a contradiction to say that you can run away if someone pulls a gun on you, but to make sure you are trained adequately to cope with knives.

I cannot get my head around the fact that if you cannot run (which is a legitimate point), that you take on a person with a weapon. Why not use some mediation or bargaining skills? This works for terrorist negotiators who face much larger risks and more dangerous outcomes.
Yes there are limited attacks when it comes to weapons. Perhaps you feel you can train against knives, a gunman will most likely shoot you before you get close (isnt that the point of a gun?). Many people who are going to brandish a gun are likely to be nervous, twitchy and have a somewhat itchy trigger finger. You are just as likely to get shot for sneezing, let alone trying to take on the dude.
Just for the record, i have been faced with a gun on more than one confrontation in N. Ireland. I was nowhere near close enough to do anything about this. I had to use communication.
I would do the same with a knife, baseball bat, sword.

Everyone is entitled to their own outlook on life and this is mine, you have yours.

For all those who are getting frustrated with the references to BJJ on this thread, may i just remind you of the thread title.
To be honest, if there was a separate thread about weapon defences i would even have bothered reading it beacause i think that you are asking for trouble if you take on an armed person.
For those of you that do, good luck. You'll need it. But stop trying to ram your opinions down everyone's throat. you are no better than jehovahs.

train gun defenses using water pistols
Excellent suggestion! Use red dye too!

I cannot get my head around the fact that if you cannot run (which is a legitimate point), that you take on a person with a weapon. Why not use some mediation or bargaining skills? Nobody's said you cannot do that.
Just for the record, i have been faced with a gun on more than one confrontation in N. Ireland. I was nowhere near close enough to do anything about this. I had to use communication.
I would do the same with a knife, baseball bat, sword. Which is sensible, but that again is missing the point. Defences against knife attacks are to be used when you have no option. i.e. you are actually being attacked, you cannot run, talking isn't going to work.
MA has been mentioned as a last resort, not a first option.

Everyone is entitled to their own outlook on life and this is mine, you have yours.

For all those who are getting frustrated with the references to BJJ on this thread, may i just remind you of the thread title.
To be honest, if there was a separate thread about weapon defences i would even have bothered reading it beacause i think that you are asking for trouble if you take on an armed person.
For those of you that do, good luck. You'll need it. But stop trying to ram your opinions down everyone's throat. you are no better than jehovahs.
Nobodies doing any ramming, explaining maybe. And I don't recall anybody suggesting anyone should take on an armed attacker. The general line has been if you train against a variety of attacks you will be better equipped than someone who hasn't if it comes to the crunch. Karate people will tend to come unstuck if grappling is involved for instance.

Which is sensible, but that again is missing the point. Defences against knife attacks are to be used when you have no option. i.e. you are actually being attacked, you cannot run, talking isn't going to work.
MA has been mentioned as a last resort, not a first option.


Kinves are not the only weapon. So shouldn't this apply to all weapons. As i said, what if you are faced with a gun? Should you try and defend yourself here also? I do not think you will be able to get close enough to defend yourself against a gun. Therefore you will have to negotiate.

So why is it possible to negotiate against a gunman but not a knife attacker?

I think that there is a contradiction here.

If you are saying that you should take on a gunman, i would question your sanity.

So which is it?

1) gunmen are nicer than knife attackers and therefore you can talk them round?

2) All weapon brandishing madmen are the same and we should be ready to take on knife wielding maniacs as well as a double barrel toting psycho?

If presented with a situation where there is a knife, why should it be any different to if it is a gun, or a baseball bat, sword etc. A weapon is a weapon, and the odds are stacked against you.Have you trained against a variety of weapons? I would guess not as they vary in degrees of difficulty enormously. And a baseball bat is a cumbersome and clunky weapon actually and can be easier to deal with than an unarmed person.

I think it is a contradiction to say that you can run away if someone pulls a gun on you, but to make sure you are trained adequately to cope with knives.
Nobody's said that AFAIK. Besides running away is not exactly a gun defence. It simply means you get shot in the back instead!

Kinves are not the only weapon. So shouldn't this apply to all weapons. As i said, what if you are faced with a gun? Should you try and defend yourself here also? I do not think you will be able to get close enough to defend yourself against a gun. Therefore you will have to negotiate.

So why is it possible to negotiate against a gunman but not a knife attacker?

I think that there is a contradiction here.

If you are saying that you should take on a gunman, i would question your sanity.

So which is it?

1) gunmen are nicer than knife attackers and therefore you can talk them round?

2) All weapon brandishing madmen are the same and we should be ready to take on knife wielding maniacs as well as a double barrel toting psycho?
No - one has said do not negotiate.
No-one has said do not train with other weapons.
No-one has said you should take on anybody who is armed with anything if there is an alternative.
So not really sure what you are talking about or who you are arguing against actually.

Please read replies to your posts more carefully before responding. It make communication much easier. And that's not being patronising.

I have been told consistently that i need to be prepared for situations with weapons. I feel that i am, i can usually leg it, but when faced with a situation where i cannot run i will negotiate. This has worked several times.

But for some reason this is not adequate for knife attacks in the replies i have read (perhaps you should check back also). Yet, the general consensus is that when faced with a gun you should get out of there, or negotiate.

My point is that the guys that are singing the praises of weapon defences (on a thread about BJJ incidentally) are contradicting themselves. A weapon is a weapon, is it not? Surely the same rules should apply?

When faced with a physical confrontation i will take the following course of action
i) Get out of there
ii) Negotiate
iii) Become a ball of fury and take those suckers down

When faced with a weapon confrontation i will take the following course of action
i) Get out of there
ii) Negotiate
iii) Become a ball of fury and take those suckers down.

I feel that i never have to go beyond point ii) and have been involved with some extremely dangerous (life threatening) situations. Point iii) only exists in the situation where me or my family's lives are at risk. It is likely that i will probably die in these situations anyway, so go down fighting. If i ever get to this situation i do not think all the training in the world will make a blind bit difference. whether it is hand to hand combat or with a weapon. Feel free to disagree but i will not concede that point.

The feedback i have recieved so far is that playing about with water pistols and wooden knives will equip me for this situation.

The main thing i cant get my head around is why people feel that there will be a situtation with a knife where you cannot negotiate your way out of. But that you could negotiate your way out of a situation when faced with a gun. Paradox?

Summary

1) All weapons should be treated as equal threats
2) The same strategy should apply to all weapons
3) I believe that all confrontations can be resolved by negotiation

Quote:
I think it is a contradiction to say that you can run away if someone pulls a gun on you, but to make sure you are trained adequately to cope with knives.

Nobody's said that AFAIK. Besides running away is not exactly a gun defence. It simply means you get shot in the back instead!

Let's not make too many assumptions about the situation here. Most people are pretty **** at shooting and it's quite difficult to hit a moving target. I am being fairly facetious here. But the point is, you have to have the ability to percieve risk in everyday life. Do you step out in the road when there is a car coming? no. you wait until the road is clear.
Do you leave your car unlocked with your laptop in clear view? no.
When in an open field and faced with a gunman 3m away do you try and outrun a bullet? No
Who's to say where you will be and what is around you. You could be quite well advised to run away. You most lilkely would be better off using some submissive behaviour, body posture and ultimately giving him what they want.

Let's not make too many assumptions about the situation here. Most people are pretty **** at shooting and it's quite difficult to hit a moving target. I am being fairly facetious here. But the point is, you have to have the ability to percieve risk in everyday life. Do you step out in the road when there is a car coming? no. you wait until the road is clear.
Do you leave your car unlocked with your laptop in clear view? no.
When in an open field and faced with a gunman 3m away do you try and outrun a bullet? No
Who's to say where you will be and what is around you. You could be quite well advised to run away. You most lilkely would be better off using some submissive behaviour, body posture and ultimately giving him what they want.
Well Duh! Of course you judge each situation and take appropriate action. Fight, Flee, negotiate, which ever works for that situation. Again arguing against no-one here.

Prediction: This thread will end in aggressive posturing, with people who don't even train bjj chiming in. It will be largely unhelpful.

Do I win a prize?

I have been told consistently that i need to be prepared for situations with weapons. I feel that i am, i can usually leg it, but when faced with a situation where i cannot run i will negotiate. This has worked several times.

But for some reason this is not adequate for knife attacks in the replies i have read (perhaps you should check back also). Yet, the general consensus is that when faced with a gun you should get out of there, or negotiate.

My point is that the guys that are singing the praises of weapon defences (on a thread about BJJ incidentally) are contradicting themselves. A weapon is a weapon, is it not? Surely the same rules should apply?
Find who said fighting against a weapon is better than negotiating and tell them I said they're a muppet!:P

When faced with a physical confrontation i will take the following course of action
i) Get out of there
ii) Negotiate
iii) Become a ball of fury and take those suckers down

When faced with a weapon confrontation i will take the following course of action
i) Get out of there
ii) Negotiate
iii) Become a ball of fury and take those suckers down.

I feel that i never have to go beyond point ii) and have been involved with some extremely dangerous (life threatening) situations. Point iii) only exists in the situation where me or my family's lives are at risk. It is likely that i will probably die in these situations anyway, so go down fighting. If i ever get to this situation i do not think all the training in the world will make a blind bit difference. whether it is hand to hand combat or with a weapon. Feel free to disagree but i will not concede that point. So no self defence is of any use then, seems to be your conclusion:confused: ? Not sure why it is likely that you will die simply because you are in a fight. That's a little bizarre/extreme.
Besides, being a 'ball of fury' is not necessarily a good idea if you want to perform your best.

The feedback i have recieved so far is that playing about with water pistols and wooden knives will equip me for this situation.Not grasped learning principles yet have you. Start with safe 'weapons', learn the mechanics and graduate to more dangerous/real weapons.
Actually the water pistol is an excellent and not a daft suggestion for training against guns. Because, if you get wet, you know you have to improve or dismiss the technique that got you wet.

The main thing i cant get my head around is why people feel that there will be a situtation with a knife where you cannot negotiate your way out of. But that you could negotiate your way out of a situation when faced with a gun. Paradox? Who said this?

Summary

1) All weapons should be treated as equal threats
2) The same strategy should apply to all weapons
3) I believe that all confrontations can be resolved by negotiation
All 3 points are wrong.
1]Some weapons trump others, so they are most certainly not equal. Given a choice between defending against a knife and a baseball bat and I'd go for the wannabie Babe Ruth.
2]Have you even trained with weapons?
3]Really! Try and explain that to a suicide bomber or a mentally ill patient off his meds or someone on Angel Dust or even an aggresive drunk.

troyhark you have issues.

Do I win a prize?
No, you're the one adding all the unhelpful posts!:P :P

If fingercuffs realises that training against an attack with/without weapons is better than no training against that attack, then he will have learned something.
But I think I've realised how he talks his way out of being attacked.
The mugger says 'Gis your wallet or I'll knife you'
fingercuffs replies 'How many strawberries would you like with that?''
M- Strawberries!? I don't want Strawberries, I just want your wallet.
FC - I don't understand why you don't want cream with your strawberries?
M - No Strawberries. No cream, just your wallet!
FC - Is that Whipped, double or single cream?
M - Arrgh you're mad.
Mugger runs away.
:D :D

troyhark you have issues.
My girlfriend is always complaining about all the magazines I keep buying and not throwing out, so I can't argue there.:thumbsup:

LOL please don't blame this on me. Read back through this thread, it is far more amusing and pointless than i ever could have predicted! You are so far off-topic the original topic is a small, blurry dot in the distance to you.

from Troy Hark above.

?



I think most Martial Artists would struggle to cope with someone armed with a weapon, a knive.

Its unrealistic to say they would do worse, than someone who has trained weapons. For a start most of the training is sparring/rolling and so they have a good idea of which techniques work against someone fighting back.[/QUOTE]



Think I put my foot in it with my comment a couple of days back. I seem to have started the Sheffield Forum equivalent of World War3.

Didn't realise it would lead to this

i wouldnt know what to do if attacked by a knife let alone a knive

i wouldnt know what to do if attacked by a knife let alone a kniveMaybe he meant attacked by a knave!

Think I put my foot in it with my comment a couple of days back. I seem to have started the Sheffield Forum equivalent of World War3.

Didn't realise it would lead to this
I would hardly call fingercuffs arguing with himself WW3.:D

after reading this thread i would be more concerned with you all trying to attack me with your handbags than a weapon!

unless of course you class a handbag as a weapon in which case maybe someone should come up with defences against that.

Stop flaming fingercuffs. He claims to have been in these situations and he's walking around alive so i'll go with his plan. How many of you who train knife defence have actually used one?

I train and coach and love bjj. However, i wouldn't use my guard in a street fight. Go figure.

LOL at want2learn. You are a legend mate.

as they say you cant be a genius without a little bit of madness.

back to the thread in hand.

i propose a competition, standard bjj rules, GB Sheff vs RGJJ Dronfield vs Castle BBA.

Teams of 5 per academy, winner is 1st to 3 wins.

The prize is having the pleasure of me attending their classes.

i submit!!!

Stop flaming fingercuffs. He claims to have been in these situations and he's walking around alive so i'll go with his plan. How many of you who train knife defence have actually used one?
I think you'll find nobody is arguing against running away or trying to talk your way out of a bad situation. Fingercuffs just seems a bit confused about things.
I've seen a few people sliced in gradings/training when they screwed up a knife defence, though personally I'd never risk testing that skill if I can help it. But, if it came to it, I would stand a better chance than if I hadn't trained. Not sure why people have an issue with that simple concept. It's the basis of all MA training. Esp those who admit to knowing nothing about this particular subject.
BTW quote from fingercuffs - 'I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff'

The prize is having the pleasure of me attending their classes.
Is that a prize or disincentive?:D

I've seen a few people sliced in gradings/training when they screwed up a knife defence

wierdo

and troy i have a very good reason for being in and on the net on a friday night, whats yours?

How does that make me a weirdo.
They were training against weapons and fluffed it.

Just like in grappling, things get broken/dislocated occasionally.

If you do martial arts, to any level of realism or intent, then people will get hurt on occasions. Good training, warm ups etc will help prevent injury, but if people are fighting.....

An ex girlfriend of mine dropped Judo in favour of this particular martial art with real knives as she was fed up of getting hurt/bones broken. She was very good at Judo BTW. It was usually a much bigger bloke falling on her causing the damage.

and troy i have a very good reason for being in and on the net on a friday night, whats yours?
Finishing off some tedious deadline. this is a welcome distraction.
Besides, I melt if I go out in the rain. Will it ever stop?:mad:
So what's your excuse?

want2learns reason is he is tagged for causing riots. He squirted someone with a supersoaker.

Its not the point of fighting back thats not understood. Its the point of even thinking about it. I think maybe some people have watched a bit too much steven sea gull and have that pumped up feeling of wanting to take on the world right after you've just watched him save it by bending wrists.

attending a club where they use real knives in gradings is something i find wierd.

i'm aggrophobic. hence why i need to know which is the best club as it will be such an effort to attend i need to know.

If you do a martial art then not considering what would happen if.... would surely make a mockery of doing a MA in first place. You can't seriously claim to do MA, but say, but I don't that sort of weapon as it's not worth considering, because it may be dangerous.
People die from being punched once, others get stabbed multiple times and live.

attending a club where they use real knives in gradings is something i find wierd.
You build up to it, slowly. Rubber, wood, steel. You only give live blades to people who know what they are doing. People learn bad/lethal habits if they only train with fakes. A very common mistake is disarming by grabbing blade or letting it hit you whilst doing fancy technique. Seen 3rd Dan [Sports] Aikido teachers disarm by grabbing 'blade' of rubber knife.
It's a high grade thing only, done under strict supervision.

i'm aggrophobic. hence why i need to know which is the best club as it will be such an effort to attend i need to know.
I should consider myself lucky then! At least my deadline will pass.
Does the amount of distance to travel affect your decision?

There was the thread nicely back on topic, then i come along to drag it off again. Sorry guys.

Troyhark, you appear to have taken a shine to me. Perhaps you should buy me dinner after all this flirting. You obviously dig my ****.

Having reviewed the thread it was the man himself who bought in weapons from Waaaay out leftfield (post 44 if anyone's counting).
Then i enter the topic (post 57) and state my opinion (which, as far as i remember i am entitled to).
From my initial posts i stated that these situations, as can any, can be resolved without having to get involved with violence.

(Post 61) you'll find that as an alternative to having to fight against a tooled up opponent i said give them what they want. Check it out. This could be considered negotiating.
Up unitl this point all talk has been about knives. It occurs to me "what about other weapons", "surely knives arent the only threat". Based on my own experiences and knowledge i thought i'd query how all the weapons "experts" would propose we deal with guns.
Again (on post 92) i mentioned about being a yes man (possible negotiating skills..?)


As for gun defences, there are none

So what would you do here other than negotiate? Do you just hope it never happens?
I have been there i know that what i do works.
If you have no back up plan for guns, why is this ok?Yet it's not ok for me to use my methods (which works just fine with guns) for knives too.


No self defence is failsafe. None at all. Against unarmed attackers or those armed with weapons. It simply gives you a better chance than no training. Only a naive person would claim otherwise.
Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.[QUOTE]

Again, what about guns? do you have a back up plan?

[QUOTE=troyhark]As for training with guns, you use replicas and if trigger is pulled before you deal with problem, the technique can be considered to have failed. You don't need live ammo to train this sort of defence as it's kind of obvious it hasn't worked.

So, if they dont work, why use them. What are you supposed to rely on between the point where you are regularly getting shot and when you are competent enough to take on billy the kid. Unfortunately crime has a habit of happening at really inconvenient moments. like when you're still rubbish at gun defences.
"excuse me mr robber, can you come back again when i have practised a bit more. thank you. so kind"




Nobody's said you cannot do that.
Which is sensible, but that again is missing the point. Defences against knife attacks are to be used when you have no option. i.e. you are actually being attacked, you cannot run, talking isn't going to work.
MA has been mentioned as a last resort, not a first option.


Nobodies doing any ramming, explaining maybe. And I don't recall anybody suggesting anyone should take on an armed attacker. The general line has been if you train against a variety of attacks you will be better equipped than someone who hasn't if it comes to the crunch. Karate people will tend to come unstuck if grappling is involved for instance.

Still got a hard on for knives here.

As for not ramming... Really?! seems to me that you cannot accept with my choice of gameplan.
Ever considered an organised religion. The mormons could do with someone with your staying power and inability to let someone have their own opinion.





All 3 points are wrong.
1]Some weapons trump others, so they are most certainly not equal. Given a choice between defending against a knife and a baseball bat and I'd go for the wannabie Babe Ruth.
2]Have you even trained with weapons?
3]Really! Try and explain that to a suicide bomber or a mentally ill patient off his meds or someone on Angel Dust or even an aggresive drunk.

1) treat all weapons as high risk and refer to my gameplan. If i chose to talk someone round and it works, why does this cause you so much anguish? i can be one charming muthe****3r when i choose to be.
2) why is this so important. i train no-can-do, the ancient english martial art. Mediation skills are just as relevant here.
3) Seriously, you are clutching at straws here. Why would a suicide bomber be wanting a tussle with me. Surely he has bigger fish to fry.
Lets be fair, we could dream up "what if" scenarios all night to try and out do each other. and i have a much better imagination.




How does that make me a weirdo.
They were training against weapons and fluffed it.

Just like in grappling, things get broken/dislocated occasionally.

If you do martial arts, to any level of realism or intent, then people will get hurt on occasions. Good training, warm ups etc will help prevent injury, but if people are fighting.....

An ex girlfriend of mine dropped Judo in favour of this particular martial art with real knives as she was fed up of getting hurt/bones broken. She was very good at Judo BTW. It was usually a much bigger bloke falling on her causing the damage.

Training against weapons and fluffed it?! Then these people go out into the street ready to take on someone who is tooled up? Awesome plan

As for grappling injuries, most cases are not "fluffing" techniques. It is down to the person to whom the technique is being applied not tapping soon enough. Perhaps testing their threshold.



Enjoy the evening read:)

You remind me of a student called Soft Bob [there was a hard Bob too]. If you showed him how to defend against a punch he would say what about if he has a stick? If you taught him about defending against a stick, he'd say 'what about if he a stick in both hands?', when he leaned about defending against a chain, he'd say 'but what if he was wearing a blue tracksuit and had a chain and two sticks?' You would have to explain, when you have learned this move, then you can move on to the next technique.

You remind me of a jehovas witness. Turn up at your door, to talk to you about something you're not interested in. You explain to them you arent interested. They keep going. They dont listen to your point of view and keep telling you theirs. Over and over again zzzzzzzzzzz. It is a one way conversation.

They eventually leave my door and my opinion is the same as it was before they came.

Pray with me brother.

incidentally, was he called soft bob because he could only get a semi when you cupped him?

You remind me of a student called Soft Bob [there was a hard Bob too]. If you showed him how to defend against a punch he would say what about if he has a stick? If you taught him about defending against a stick, he'd say 'what about if he a stick in both hands?', when he leaned about defending against a chain, he'd say 'but what if he was wearing a blue tracksuit and had a chain and two sticks?' You would have to explain, when you have learned this move, then you can move on to the next technique.


kind of off the subject, instead of complicating the matter as soft bob did, fingercuffs is actually simplifying. 1 set of rules for every encounter.

Want2learn has knife defenced the correct

From my initial posts i stated that these situations, as can any, can be resolved without having to get involved with violence.Not always, which is the point that completely escapes you.

So what would you do here other than negotiate? Do you just hope it never happens?
I have been there i know that what i do works.
If you have no back up plan for guns, why is this ok?Yet it's not ok for me to use my methods (which works just fine with guns) for knives too.
Why do you think I wouldn't negotiate? I never said otherwise.


Again, what about guns? do you have a back up plan?
This is a dumb comment. If I had the best defence in the world you'd simply say, 'what about mortars or cruise missiles?' and then that would discredit any gun/knife/cosh..... defences too by your oddball reasoning.


Still got a hard on for knives here.
Not at all. I have no interest in defending against them.
But if I have no option, unlike you I won't assume I will die and give up.

As for not ramming... Really?! seems to me that you cannot accept with my choice of gameplan.
Ever considered an organised religion. The mormons could do with someone with your staying power and inability to let someone have their own opinion. How stupid are you? My plan of action is
1]not get into situation in first place
2] get out of situation if it develops
3] if I'm stuck, try talking my way out
4] if all else fails and I'm physically attacked [and only then]then I will use any skills I have to the best of my ability
You are the crazy zealot who keeps insisting on something that's not true so comparing me to mormons and jehovahs witnesses is deeply ironic. You have been quite dogmatic in this thread, not me.

1) treat all weapons as high risk and refer to my gameplan. If i chose to talk someone round and it works, why does this cause you so much anguish? i can be one charming muthe****3r when i choose to be.Not tonight obviously! :P Talking your way out causes me no anguish. Not sure why you think this. Is it because you don't actually bother to read all the words in a post.

Seriously, you are clutching at straws here. Why would a suicide bomber be wanting a tussle with me. Surely he has bigger fish to fry.
Lets be fair, we could dream up "what if" scenarios all night to try and out do each other. and i have a much better imagination.He probably wouldn't. But the suicide bomber and the other far more likely examples you convieniently ignore, were to counterpoint your bizarre claim 'everyone is negotiable with'. Simply not true. the likelyhood of any particluar attacker is not relevent.


Training against weapons and fluffed it?! Then these people go out into the street ready to take on someone who is tooled up? Awesome planMissing the point once again, they aren't ready and they are taught not to try it out unless they have no choice.

As for grappling injuries, most cases are not "fluffing" techniques. It is down to the person to whom the technique is being applied not tapping soon enough. Perhaps testing their threshold. Nonsense, lots of injuries occur through mistakes, stumbles, inequality of partners in strength and weight, struggling and something giving - turning over to escape and wrenching. Never seen anyone break through unwilingness to tap, though it may well happen with the more meat headed grapplers. Seen all the others.
Last incident I can recall, was a broken wrist in groundwork where the injured turned with someone else on his back and put both their entire body weights thru his wrist joint.

So, if they dont work, why use them. What are you supposed to rely on between the point where you are regularly getting shot and when you are competent enough to take on billy the kid. Unfortunately crime has a habit of happening at really inconvenient moments. like when you're still rubbish at gun defences.
"excuse me mr robber, can you come back again when i have practised a bit more. thank you. so kind"This is one of the dumbest reasons not to learn self defence I have ever heard. Are you simply a troll, deliberated misreading and spouting nonsense for the sake of it?
And if techniques don't work I wouldn't use them.

As you seem to think you can negotiate your way out of any violent conflict.:loopy: I wil more than gladly pay for you to go to Iraq and chat to the militia there. I will even pay for you to learn Arabic first, so there will be no misunderstanding through language barriers.
And until you can read a post without taking it to mean something other than what is said. I shall ignore your illogical ramblings. As for the pathetic gay jibe, grow up.

i always do

quick question troy, if you cant negotiate with a suicide bomber which self defence system do you recommend, TKD, wing chun, tai chi, karate, kevlar?

kind of off the subject, instead of complicating the matter as soft bob did, fingercuffs is actually simplifying. 1 set of rules for every encounter.
No he did exactly the same. The conversation was about defending against knives. Figercuffs starts woffling on about guns and how would you defend against them. Going from a close range weapon like a knife to defending against a long range weapon is complicating thing. It's the irritating, 'yeah but what if your oponent was sitting on an elephant armed with a bazooka?' comment you get from a begiiner when teaching some one to avoid a punch.
He is being simple however, in thinking one size fits all.
But as FC seems to be an illiterate troll I shall now ignore him.

quick question troy, if you cant negotiate with a suicide bomber which self defence system do you recommend, TKD, wing chun, tai chi, karate, kevlar?Teleportation.:thumbsup:
Actually would a waterpistol do the job. Wet explosives/damp squib?

Do I win a prize?
What prize would you like? The trolls have landed.:rolleyes:

What prize would you like? The trolls have landed.:rolleyes:

only just realised?

Jeeeez. I don't know what's worse, wasting your time training against knife attacks, or arguing about it on here :loopy:
I'd rather train against speeding motorists.

How about we get back to the original topic ?

only just realised?
I'm an optomist! He claimed he wanted to learn about the dark side, but was obviously blinded by the light. Anyway I needed some distraction from boring work.

This is a dumb comment. If I had the best defence in the world you'd simply say, 'what about mortars or cruise missiles?' and then that would discredit any gun/knife/cosh..... defences too by your oddball reasoning.


The reason for bringing guns into the equation is because they are a real risk. Gun crime is increasing. Nottingham is the gun capital of the uk and it is not that far away. Incidentally, if we are talking about oddball logic why bring weapon talk onto a thread about bjj. you were the one who changed the topic

Not at all. I have no interest in defending against them.
But if I have no option, unlike you I won't assume I will die and give up.


Where did i say this please?




How stupid are you? My plan of action is
1]not get into situation in first place
2] get out of situation if it develops
3] if I'm stuck, try talking my way out
4] if all else fails and I'm physically attacked [and only then]then I will use any skills I have to the best of my ability


This is the first time you have spoke any sense. see what can happen when you think before you write. What do you think i have been saying for the past few pages.



Not tonight obviously! :P Talking your way out causes me no anguish. Not sure why you think this. Is it because you don't actually bother to read all the words in a post.

He probably wouldn't. But the suicide bomber and the other far more likely examples you convieniently ignore, were to counterpoint your bizarre claim 'everyone is negotiable with'. Simply not true. the likelyhood of any particluar attacker is not relevent.



I already said that the suicide bomber probably has bigger fish to fry. Of course the liklihood of the type of attacker is relevant. If it isnt relevant, i can only assume that you too are prepared for a suicide bomber?


This is one of the dumbest reasons not to learn self defence I have ever heard. Are you simply a troll, deliberated misreading and spouting nonsense for the sake of it?
And if techniques don't work I wouldn't use them.

What are you referring to here




As you seem to think you can negotiate your way out of any violent conflict.:loopy: I wil more than gladly pay for you to go to Iraq and chat to the militia there. I will even pay for you to learn Arabic first, so there will be no misunderstanding through language barriers.
And until you can read a post without taking it to mean something other than what is said. I shall ignore your illogical ramblings. As for the pathetic gay jibe, grow up.

Why are you so into suicide bombers and the like. You are determined to take this thread further and further away from the topic. Yet you say i have oddball logic. hmmm okay.
As for the gay jibe? nobody said you were gay. you bought soft bob into the conversation (again waaaay off topic). Besides, you could have been cupping him in a totally hetro way. i dont know, i wasnt there. Whatever happened, was between you and soft bob. two consenting adults, behind closed doors. who am i to judge. more power to you.

Jeeeez. I don't know what's worse, wasting your time training against knife attacks, or arguing about it on here :loopy:
I'd rather train against speeding motorists.
I do that too, I've done a lot of urban cycling. Even had motorist blood on my bike. :thumbsup:

maybe soft bob felt inadequate and that is why he always questioned your technique or maybe you jst didnt do it for him

Nobody's said you cannot do that.
Which is sensible, but that again is missing the point. Defences against knife attacks are to be used when you have no option. i.e. you are actually being attacked, you cannot run, talking isn't going to work.
MA has been mentioned as a last resort, not a first option.

50 odd posts ago! Learn to read before you write.

maybe soft bob felt inadequate and that is why he always questioned your technique or maybe you jst didnt do it for him
Or he may have been jealous of Hard Bob!
Soft Bob used to sneak around the University, jumping [ooh er!] one of the other students Kato style, a la Pink Panther, this sounds worse and worse!!:hihi: The other student wanted Soft Bob to test his reflexes. Which could be tricky/embarassing if you have your hands full with a tea tray in the canteen.

Just for the record, i have been faced with a gun on more than one confrontation in N. Ireland. I was nowhere near close enough to do anything about this. I had to use communication.
I would do the same with a knife, baseball bat, sword.

Everyone is entitled to their own outlook on life and this is mine, you have yours.


This was just before yours TH i think you will find i make reference to my communication method.

What is your point? I said you made sense. Just because you rehash my idea, it does not make it original. We all agree that fighting is a last resort. The point is, no one mentioned negotiating until i bought it up.

The reason why i said you spoke some sense was that you finally prioritised your options and "included something other than
1) Run
2) fight

This is waht cavemen did. we (most of us) have evolved since then and can use other methods before the fight option.

Just did a quick youtube search for "knife defence" and this was the first result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

It's difficult to see how grappling would be any use in these guy's training :wink:

i see they were using real blades there

Anyway Great to see Steve Marsden, Royce Gracie Network in a 3 page interview in this months Martial Arts Illustrated.

i see they were using real blades thereIf they had been the second guy would have not been able to grapple as he was 'stabbed' numerous times in kidneys before he went down. As were many others, knifed that is..
'Unrealistic Knife training' would be better.:loopy: Or Useless Knife training.

However, in your knife training are you actually trying to stab each other? When it gets to the stage of using real knives?

Wouldn't it be better to train with full realism in terms of your actions and leave out the live blade? I wouldn't have thought having a real knife would really add much to it and would simply detract from the aggression of the aggressor. The exercise that they were doing on that video was interesting, I'd like to have a go at that.

I think Lee Mapley raised a good point earlier (ie what if your attacker expects you to bend over).

Do any clubs train with this type if scenario in mind, and if so How would you train this?

Unrealistic in terms of reacting to the fact they were already 'dead' whilst wrestling with their opponent.
I mentioned above, people got cut with live blades. But if you realise someone has failed to defend, you can hopefully amend things, as it usually becomes apparent to attacker, well before defender, that's it's not going to work.
Personally if you know someone is going to attack you with a knife in the dojo, you don't wait to be attacked.

I think Lee Mapley raised a good point earlier (ie what if your attacker expects you to bend over).
What sort of attack is this!!:o

To be honest, I don't think many of the people on that video would have been dead - I'm not saying any of them were at an amazing standard either, but they seemed to be able to defend themselves - any violent encounter with a knife will involve cuts no matter how good you are, the trick is to not get cut fatally.

I think Lee Mapley raised a good point earlier (ie what if your attacker expects you to bend over).

Do any clubs train with this type if scenario in mind, and if so How would you train this?

I do train this and again, I advocate full realism

It's like being punched in the face, once it's happened a few times it's far less traumatic and eventually becomes almost a non-event.

Individual classes only 50 pounds, vaseline not supplied.

What sort of attack is this!!:o



A painfull one

Hi Madrev

Check out our website, www.kapapsheffield.co.uk
Anyone genuinely interested come along, We have various other martial artists and instructors train with us, even a couple of BJJ guys.
Our only criteria is leave all ego,s at the door !!!!

I look forward to meeting and training with you.

hi lotar
Over Christmas are your class times running as normal?.

Cheers

Hi Shoojiki

Our classes over xmas are off, 22nd, 26th and 29th Dec. All other classes run as normal.
Hope to see you soon.
Have you trained with us before ???

Thanks

Craig

What sort of attack is this!!:o
Best ask soft bob...


Second thoughts, ask hard bob (know what i'm saying? :wink: )

Hi Shoojiki

Our classes over xmas are off, 22nd, 26th and 29th Dec. All other classes run as normal.
Hope to see you soon.
Have you trained with us before ???

Thanks

Craig

hey lotar

No I have'nt trained you before, Im a member at greens and all ways plan to make it down but never do. I'll try and make it down in the new year then, have a good one.

Thanks

To be honest, I don't think many of the people on that video would have been dead - I'm not saying any of them were at an amazing standard either, but they seemed to be able to defend themselves - any violent encounter with a knife will involve cuts no matter how good you are, the trick is to not get cut fatally.
Being stabbed in the kidney repeatly, which happens in either the first or second attack is what I'm referring too. After this they still manged to wrestle for a while!
Very few of them tried to control weapon, so anything but good defending in my books. The quality was poor and people a bit small on screen to see knife in some encounters, but it really didn't look good for the defenders.

it didn't look good at all. Knife defences are a waste of time. Any decent instructor will tell you to always reason with an attacker (if possible) first. However, the only time this isn't gonna be possible is if somebody comes up and stabs you in the back while you're totally unaware.

This thread has turned into total crap and should be deleted. Its gone totally off topic and to my reckoning is now just troyhark saying knife defences work to everyone else telling him they don't.

I only have one question for troyhark: if confronted with a knife attack by someone who doesn't know what they're doing with a knife and just wants to stab you are you 100% sure you would defend yourself from being stabbed??

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any average joe that doesn't know what they're doing but wants to attack me is gonna be left asleep on the pavement with an imprint of my shoe on the back of their heads.

I personally think the best defence to someone coming at you with a knife in front of you is a really hard kick in the knackers. I'd also fancy a thai boxer to do better against an armed attacker a lot more than an aikedo practitioner. Flame away.

BJJMAN

To say knife defense training is no good is a a funny comment to make. John Machado is involved in our association and thinks very highly of our knife training.
I train in Thai and BJJ, both excellent sports , but in this day and age you have to cover weapon defense.
I have never trained in Aikido so can not comment on there training.
I agree this has gone off topic by the way.

Craig

Being stabbed in the kidney repeatly, which happens in either the first or second attack is what I'm referring too. After this they still manged to wrestle for a while!
Very few of them tried to control weapon, so anything but good defending in my books. The quality was poor and people a bit small on screen to see knife in some encounters, but it really didn't look good for the defenders.

Yeah, fair enough, rewatched it, maybe they'd be dead. Maybe I'm not going to pick fights with knife wielding maniacs for a while. I watched this sort of documentary thing called fight science yesterday, anyone seen that? Quite cool.

P.S. agree with the thai boxing vs aikido thing, although I'm sure there are amazing aikido people and crap thai boxers too - but on average, yusyus.

SO, going back to the origional thread.

We need the merits of the individual BJJ clubs in the area, ie

which are the best for contests

which is the best for people who want to train and not take it too seriously,

and which one is the best for people who want a black belt in 3 months.

Which one is the best for a laugh, ie, where behavior such as farting is not frowned upon.

Thankfully we are starting to realise that TOYHAWK is the real troll here.

This thread was started about bjj. toyhawk, bought up weapons (knives specifically), then i mentioned guns, then toyhawk totally looses the plot and starts waffling about suicide bombers like the insane ramblings of an old man with early stage alzheimers.

If toyhawk thinks he's having a hard time, perhaps he should re-read the thread title. I mentioned previously that the only reason i looked at this thread was because bjj was mentioned. When i read it i couldnt believe my eyes because people were talking about knife defences.

Whether i or other people think knife defences are a good idea, is entirely up to ourselves.
Maybe, if you want to talk about knives, start another thread. It's quite easy. I can assure you i wont even read it, let alone take the ****.

i went to toyhawks knife defence class with a female friend the other night. I wasnt allowed to take part because it was a womens only self defence class. I was allowed to film it though. Here it is incase you're interested. I think it's clear to see, he really knows his stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut2rra6kq6c



So, bjj.... an interclub would be quite a cool idea. or maybe an open mat type get together?

Gah, this thread is crap.

All the clubs are good, go try them and see which you like, chances are you'll like them all and then you can train at whichever suits you, possibly all of them.

lotar, out of interest where do you train thai or BJJ?

Im sure you'd agree that if anyone went for Mick, Christian, Imran or Helen from the Wicker Camp with a knife (or even anyone who's done enough classes to know how to front kick, low kick, high kick) they're chances are much better than someone who needs to grapple. And that includes BJJ. I'd bet that in a real situation, Chris would come out of a knife attack better than John Machado. Just because he wouldn't need the close contact to defend himself.

He'd be more than capable to keep an attacker away and hurt him with a leg kick enough for an attacker to change their mind extremely quickly.

I know for a fact my bjj wouldn't defend me against a knife attack and if i tried to use it in that sort of situation id be stabbed. So that is not me giving a biased opinion (like some people). That is rational thought.

Gah, this thread is crap.

All the clubs are good, go try them and see which you like, chances are you'll like them all and then you can train at whichever suits you, possibly all of them.

I second that crayfish, no doubt some stupid people will say "if you dont like it dont read it" my answer in advance is :

Ive got to read it first then I can determine what a load of Dog ***** it is :P
LOL !

And yes it started off as "my dads bigger than your dad" with regard to BJJ teams then degenerated into knife fighting and then someone goes on about suicide bombers ???
WTF!!!

:confused:

Personally the way i see BJJ (and being into the fight game from a promoters perspective) is as a "tool" for MMA.

BJJ to me is a tool for MMA and combines well with thai/kick/ western boxing.
Now for those ends id look for a BJJ team that combine their BJJ training with a stand up school and play the brutal MMA game!

Royce Gracie BJJ do just that, mix their excellent BJJ game with stand up at AFK!!!

Just my two penneth worth.

Hi BJJMAN

I train at the Wicker and at RGBJJN, I also instruct Kapap.
I actually train with Chris at Wicker Camp.

Thats all i,m adding to this post,

Keep safe and enjoy your training.

Craig

Don't matter what training you've done - if you get attacked with a knife by a person wanting to inflict damage, expect to get stabbed.

Lol @ the dillusions that thai leg kicks (or any other training) will defend you from a knife attacker. Karl Tanswell, great case in point. :rolleyes:

BJJ to me is a tool for MMA and combines well with thai/kick/ western boxing.
Now for those ends id look for a BJJ team that combine their BJJ training with a stand up school and play the brutal MMA game!



thats sounds worse than i would hope you ment it to, BJJ is a sport on its own, it just happens that some of the best MMA fighters in the world train in BJJ because it works.

Theres all too much talk about BJJ with MMA.......... there TWO different sports, just because BJJ is used, its not exclusive.

If anything Luta-livre would be more like MMA, but no one brings that up.

sorry for the rant but its just got to be said

thats sounds worse than i would hope you ment it to, BJJ is a sport on its own, it just happens that some of the best MMA fighters in the world train in BJJ because it works.

Theres all too much talk about BJJ with MMA.......... there TWO different sports, just because BJJ is used, its not exclusive.

If anything Luta-livre would be more like MMA, but no one brings that up.

sorry for the rant but its just got to be said

I have to agree. Just because its proven effective in MMA, people seem to think that's why we train in BJJ. When in fact the majority have no intension of stepping in the cage.... We do it because we love to roll around with fat sweaty men.

it didn't look good at all. Knife defences are a waste of time. many are, just like many punch/kick defences are. But not all.
Any decent instructor will tell you to always reason with an attacker (if possible) first. Leg it first actually, reason comes second.
However, the only time this isn't gonna be possible is if somebody comes up and stabs you in the back while you're totally unaware.

This thread has turned into total crap and should be deleted. Its gone totally off topic and to my reckoning is now just troyhark saying knife defences work to everyone else telling him they don't.

I only have one question for troyhark: if confronted with a knife attack by someone who doesn't know what they're doing with a knife and just wants to stab you are you 100% sure you would defend yourself from being stabbed??

Please try and read what I actually posted, not what fingerpuffs thought I said. 80 or so posts back I said this
"No self defence is failsafe. None at all. Against unarmed attackers or those armed with weapons. It simply gives you a better chance than no training. Only a naive person would claim otherwise.
Not sure why this is so difficult to understand"I
I repeat - training against knives, gives a better chance than if you haven't. [Assuming you train properly]. Just as training against punches, grabs kicks gives you a better chance against those attacks.
I've been told by one muppet who admits to have never done any knife defences, that they don't work.
I quote
"I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff"
So how exactly would he know?

Thankfully we are starting to realise that TOYHAWK is the real troll here.
This thread was started about bjj. And then it moved on as that part had petered out.
toyhawk, bought up weapons (knives specifically), In context, not randomly and you stated you were interested in finding out more. I quote you again
"I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff"
then i mentioned guns, Very out of context and somewhat randomly!
then toyhawk totally looses the plot and starts waffling about suicide bombers like the insane ramblings of an old man with early stage alzheimers. You claimed you could reason with anybody,:loopy: I pointed out that is so not true and I cited drug addicts, aggressive drunks, suicide bombers and mental patients off their meds as being 4 examples of people who you would not be able to reason with. Completely and utterly in context and which also refuted your wild claim in the process.
You simply saw the phrase 'suicide bomber' ignored the context and now repeat it randomly in your posts constantly in the hope of discrediting me.
If you could read or even reason, it would be a great help, so God knows why you think you can talk your way out of any situation unless you take the loony approach I descibed in a previous post.
Repeated below

"But I think I've realised how Fingerpuffs talks his way out of being attacked.
The mugger says 'Gis your wallet or I'll knife you'
fingercuffs replies 'How many strawberries would you like with that?''
M- Strawberries!? I don't want Strawberries, I just want your wallet.
FC - I don't understand why you don't want cream with your strawberries?
M - No Strawberries. No cream, just your wallet!
FC - Is that Whipped, double or single cream?
M - Arrgh you're mad.
Mugger runs away.":hihi: :hihi:

You haven't taken me up on my offer to pay for you to go to Iraq and talk the various militia groups there into not beheading you. Any reason?

Im sure you'd agree that if anyone went for Mick, Christian, Imran or Helen from the Wicker Camp with a knife (or even anyone who's done enough classes to know how to front kick, low kick, high kick) they're chances are much better than someone who needs to grapple. And that includes BJJ. I'd bet that in a real situation, Chris would come out of a knife attack better than John Machado. Just because he wouldn't need the close contact to defend himself.

He'd be more than capable to keep an attacker away and hurt him with a leg kick enough for an attacker to change their mind extremely quickly.

I know for a fact my bjj wouldn't defend me against a knife attack and if i tried to use it in that sort of situation id be stabbed. So that is not me giving a biased opinion (like some people). That is rational thought.Rational thought indeed and more along the lines of what I've been saying.
But kicking vs knives, not always a good idea! There was an incident on Ecclesall road a few years back involving some karate peeps [suppposedly good at kicking!] and a knife. The Karate Kids ended up in hospital and the chap with a knife ran off.

And then it moved on as that part had petered out.
In context, not randomly and you stated you were interested in finding out more. I quote you again
"I am not trying to catch anyone out here, i am genuinely interested and i have never encountered this kind of stuff"
Very out of context and somewhat randomly!
You claimed you could reason with anybody,:loopy: I pointed out that is so not true and I cited drug addicts, aggressive drunks, suicide bombers and mental patients off their meds as being 4 examples of people who you would not be able to reason with. Completely and utterly in context and which also refuted your wild claim in the process.
You simply saw the phrase 'suicide bomber' ignored the context and now repeat it randomly in your posts constantly in the hope of discrediting me.
If you could read or even reason, it would be a great help, so God knows why you think you can talk your way out of any situation unless you take the loony approach I descibed in a previous post.
Repeated below

"But I think I've realised how Fingerpuffs talks his way out of being attacked.
The mugger says 'Gis your wallet or I'll knife you'
fingercuffs replies 'How many strawberries would you like with that?''
M- Strawberries!? I don't want Strawberries, I just want your wallet.
FC - I don't understand why you don't want cream with your strawberries?
M - No Strawberries. No cream, just your wallet!
FC - Is that Whipped, double or single cream?
M - Arrgh you're mad.
Mugger runs away.":hihi: :hihi:

You haven't taken me up on my offer to pay for you to go to Iraq and talk the various militia groups there into not beheading you. Any reason?

Bloody hell!!!
Are you serious? whats that got to do with who the best BJJ team in the area is???

:confused:

balls to this!!!

Royce Gracie JJ are the best team in the area!!!


But Gracie Barra are the best team in the world!! And they do knife defences!

SO, going back to the origional thread.

We need the merits of the individual BJJ clubs in the area, ie

which are the best for contests

which is the best for people who want to train and not take it too seriously,

and which one is the best for people who want a black belt in 3 months.

Which one is the best for a laugh, ie, where behavior such as farting is not frowned upon.



Crikey this thread is descending into a fart, sorry a farse. With defenses against knife attacks, and even one poster talking about defending against someone trying to behead you.

Now I know Town can be violent at times, its not that bad.

Can someone answer the above points

Crikey this thread is descending into a fart, sorry a farse. With defenses against knife attacks, and even one poster talking about defending against someone trying to behead you.

Now I know Town can be violent at times, its not that bad.

Can someone answer the above points

depends...

depends...

depends...

computer says not possible...

depends... (although from reading some of the barragergus' posts he has something of a reputation in this department...) :hihi:

Hi All,

Long time reader, first time poster:thumbsup:

I think you'll find that both schools have nice guys training there, both are friendly welcoming places and you can argue the toss who’s the better instructors. But let’s face it Gracie Barra Has 2 Purple belt instructors that have been assessed by two of the best bjj players on the planet over a long period of time. Their technique has been picked apart and rebuilt by these black belts over this period of time on a weekly basis.

They have been given the right to run a Gracie Barra school and are recognised by Carlos Gracie Jn on merit alone and haven’t had to pay a penny for this.

Both instructors enter comps and are a constant on the mat putting their rep on the line and have proven the standard they are at. There was a comp recently in Sheffield of which there were 6 entrants from Gracie Barra, RGJJ NONE.

Royce Gracie does have a couple of guys, GOOD guys who have entered amateur mma and I have a lot of respect for these guys for doing so but that alone cant be used to justify RGJJ over the instruction of 2 Gracie Barra black belts for top class bjj instruction. I glad that it wasn’t any of them that tried to use that to promo their bjj instruction.

Take it from someone who has a clue about sport if it is proper 100% bjj you are after you can't beat Gracie Barra in Sheffield.

On the other hand if you just want some where to train and the standard of tuition is not of great concern, train at any of the clubs!


And lastly, Chefkicker please let the guys from RGJJ put their own case across as your imput on bjj is embarassing!! Stick to what you know:thumbsup:

Best post I've read in donkeys. Couldn't have put it better myself :thumbsup:


And lastly, Chefkicker please let the guys from RGJJ put their own case across as your imput on bjj is embarassing!! Stick to what you know:thumbsup: Love it! :hihi:

Hi All,

Long time reader, first time poster:thumbsup:

I think you'll find that both schools have nice guys training there, both are friendly welcoming places and you can argue the toss who’s the better instructors. But let’s face it Gracie Barra Has 2 Purple belt instructors that have been assessed by two of the best bjj players on the planet over a long period of time. Their technique has been picked apart and rebuilt by these black belts over this period of time on a weekly basis.

They have been given the right to run a Gracie Barra school and are recognised by Carlos Gracie Jn on merit alone and haven’t had to pay a penny for this.

Both instructors enter comps and are a constant on the mat putting their rep on the line and have proven the standard they are at. There was a comp recently in Sheffield of which there were 6 entrants from Gracie Barra, RGJJ NONE.

Royce Gracie does have a couple of guys, GOOD guys who have entered amateur mma and I have a lot of respect for these guys for doing so but that alone cant be used to justify RGJJ over the instruction of 2 Gracie Barra black belts for top class bjj instruction. I glad that it wasn’t any of them that tried to use that to promo their bjj instruction.

Take it from someone who has a clue about sport if it is proper 100% bjj you are after you can't beat Gracie Barra in Sheffield.

On the other hand if you just want some where to train and the standard of tuition is not of great concern, train at any of the clubs!


And lastly, Chefkicker please let the guys from RGJJ put their own case across as your imput on bjj is embarassing!! Stick to what you know:thumbsup:

hmm, sounds like another 'my dad's bigger than your dad' post...

getting a purple belt is impressive, and congrats to the guys, but what it means is that they're deemed to deserve the ir promotion because they've improved on the mat, not necessarily because they've improved as instructors (although they might have, who knows?)

try all the clubs you're interested, and see what's best for YOU - ignore all the rest of this crap...

hmm, sounds like another 'my dad's bigger than your dad' post...

getting a purple belt is impressive, and congrats to the guys, but what it means is that they're deemed to deserve the ir promotion because they've improved on the mat, not necessarily because they've improved as instructors (although they might have, who knows?)

try all the clubs you're interested, and see what's best for YOU - ignore all the rest of this crap...


Cagn4y didn’t you say you trained bjj:confused:

If there instruction wasnt up to standard do you think the black belts that assess them, who represent the largest bjj team in the world and personally answer to Carlos Gracie jn would allow them to continue to teach? Progression comes from technique, talent and teaching ability you train bjj don’t you know this??????

Every two weeks 50% of the classes at Gracie Barra are taken by a world-class black belt.

Now you and your friends train bjj how often do you train with a black belt, world champ out of interest?

These are facts that cant be argued, no my dads bigger than your dad.

Carnage

“You and your friends”

My girlfriend reads these threads and she's going to think 'does Chris really spend time with people like this'? I'm ashamed to say that I socialise with someone that has that kind of mentality. Its embarrassing!

Chris

Carnage

“You and your friends”

My girlfriend reads these threads and she's going to think 'does Chris really spend time with people like this'? I'm ashamed to say that I socialise with someone that has that kind of mentality. Its embarrassing!

Chris

I agree completely Chris, sad isnt it?
More of this "my dad is bigger than your dad and my gang is harder than your gang all because we are higher up in the XYZ martial arts(whatever style it happens to be) association" .
Im not like that am I chris ???
LOL

"And lastly, Chefkicker please let the guys from RGJJ put their own case across as your imput on bjj is embarassing!! Stick to what you know"

lol

Well said Chris !!!!!!
I am very satisfied with the clubs I train at, RGJJN and Wicker Camp. Thats all that really matters to me.

Cagn4y didn’t you say you trained bjj:confused:

If there instruction wasnt up to standard do you think the black belts that assess them, who represent the largest bjj team in the world and personally answer to Carlos Gracie jn would allow them to continue to teach? Progression comes from technique, talent and teaching ability you train bjj don’t you know this??????

Every two weeks 50% of the classes at Gracie Barra are taken by a world-class black belt.

Now you and your friends train bjj how often do you train with a black belt, world champ out of interest?

These are facts that cant be argued, no my dads bigger than your dad.

of course there instruction is up to standard, i didn't question their teaching ability, and - it was up to standard when they were blue belts also, which wasn't very long ago...

ones ability on the mat does not = ones ability to convey technique. this has nothing to do with bjj, it has to do with teaching - if you want two purple belt instructors, go to Gracie Barra, if you want black belt instructors one per fortnight or whatever, go to Gracie Barra, but if you want an instructor who can teach you in a style which you're able to learn, then try each club and see what feels better for you.

so when you refer to purple belts and blackbelts, you're stating fact, when you imply in any way that that makes for better instruction, you're stating a subjective opinion that you can't substantiate by reasoned argument or examples, which i gave in a previous post.

blackbelt does not equal good teacher, best practitioner in the world at your chosen event does not equal best teacher in the world at your chosen event...

chefkicker's opinion might seem ill-informed to you re: BJJ, but everyone is going to think people's opinions are ill-informed, like yours on teaching, for example...it seems to me no one is seriosuly putting a case across for either club, only those people who don't seem to train at them...

once per fortnight, much like many other people covered by Gracie Barra north, but as mentioned before, the best instructors I'VE had aren't blackbelts...

it didn't look good at all. Knife defences are a waste of time. Any decent instructor will tell you to always reason with an attacker (if possible) first. However, the only time this isn't gonna be possible is if somebody comes up and stabs you in the back while you're totally unaware.

This thread has turned into total crap and should be deleted. Its gone totally off topic and to my reckoning is now just troyhark saying knife defences work to everyone else telling him they don't.
So what's your plan? Try to negotiate, if that fails just die?


I only have one question for troyhark: if confronted with a knife attack by someone who doesn't know what they're doing with a knife and just wants to stab you are you 100% sure you would defend yourself from being stabbed??
Does something have to be 100% before it's better than 0%? At the moment if you're negotiate fails you're down to 0%, troyhark might be down to 50% success at that point. I know which odds I'd prefer

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that any average joe that doesn't know what they're doing but wants to attack me is gonna be left asleep on the pavement with an imprint of my shoe on the back of their heads.

I personally think the best defence to someone coming at you with a knife in front of you is a really hard kick in the knackers. I'd also fancy a thai boxer to do better against an armed attacker a lot more than an aikedo practitioner. Flame away.

So you're theory now is that without ever doing any training against knife attacks you're better able to defend yourself than troyhark, who has at least had someone attack him with rubber, wooden and real knives at some point in training?
Seems a little bit like hubris to me.

Actually I just finished reading the 2 pages after the post I quoted. Feel free to ignore me as the knife stuff seemed to have gone to sleep before I posted this.

Having said that if someone from BJJ got attacked by someone with a weapon they would probably do poorly compared to someone who trained with weapons. Every martial art specialises/has biases and as a result has strengths but also weaknesses. from Troy Hark above.

Just been reading Renzo Gracie who says that, in terms of self-defence, all BJJ claims is that it can help you to defend yourself against a single weaponless opponent. Isn't it nice to hear realistic claims made in the martial arts instead of the ridiculous statements many arts make of being able to defend yourself against weapons and/or multiple attackers?

This was the first post to mention weapons. It's sad, but I went and checked.
Maybe if themadrev had managed to not insult any style that does any weapons defences at all by claiming that they were ridiculous then the whole sorry 11 page argument about knife defences could have been avoided.

Some lesson about respecting other arts, and only talking about things you have relevant experience in there I think.

I think the real lesson we can all take away from this thread is:don't pit two clubs or styles against each other. It doesn't gain anything, everyone ends up falling out and most importantly, it probably put a looooadddd of forumistas off joining in martial arts.


p.s gracie barra sucks!

p.s gracie barra sucks!


Jimanyjim,

Could you not have said that at the start of tonights class! I could have sorted out your punishment then!!

See you in the new year:thumbsup:

I think the real lesson we can all take away from this thread is:don't pit two clubs or styles against each other. It doesn't gain anything, everyone ends up falling out and most importantly, it probably put a looooadddd of forumistas off joining in martial arts.


p.s gracie barra sucks!

that too. A lot of people had responded saying that the OP should try both and decide for themself, which I think is a pretty fair comment.

goddamit the edit button just doesn't work fast enough on this thing!

see you soon m8 ;)

I think the real lesson we can all take away from this thread is:don't pit two clubs or styles against each other. It doesn't gain anything, everyone ends up falling out and most importantly, it probably put a looooadddd of forumistas off joining in martial arts.


p.s gracie barra sucks!

this is soooooo true! either it could put people off starting altogether, or put them off a particular club...

if people are shouting out about how good their club is then that maybe fine, but when it comes how good my club is versus your club it can sound conceited and put people off attending the so-called 'better' club...

try everything you're interested in, see hoe the venue suits YOU, how the teaching style suits YOU, how the class size and amount of 1-2-1 tuition suits YOU, how the atmosphere among member suits YOU, the price, accessibility, bias towards pure sport/mma/self defence/art...and then, decide what's best for YOU, because nothing else really matters!

try everything you're interested in, see hoe the venue suits YOU, how the teaching style suits YOU, how the class size and amount of 1-2-1 tuition suits YOU, how the atmosphere among member suits YOU, the price, accessibility, bias towards pure sport/mma/self defence/art...and then, decide what's best for YOU, because nothing else really matters!

This is a very sensible opinion. I think that each person should try what they want and choose an art that suits them.

For example, i do NOT give a toss whether people THINK knife defences work or not. I am NOT interested in them. I CHOSE to take this chance despite what people are saying. If i get into a situation with a knife so be it.

I dont see why this is so hard to accept. It is a choice.



For anyone viewing the forum and hoping to read a thread about BJJ i think it is about doing your research. Decide what you want to gain from a club. It could be regular exposure to tournaments, or it could be that you want a club that can provide access to experts such as seminars with world champions on a regular basis.
Having trained with a Royce Gracie club in the past and there were only a couple of seminars with the man himself per year (3 max per year).
Whereas gracie barra is a larger organisation with a strong team ethos and this means that the black belts and world champs are happy to travel and share knowledge.

i do NOT give a toss whether people THINK knife defences work or not. I am NOT interested in them.
I have asked some genuine questions. I would also like to know the answers.

Are you schizophrenic as well? You can't decide whether you're interested or not.
Who said i was criticising? i was merely questioning it.
Defending against weapons?! dont be naive here. In reality, the most sensible thing to do is to leg it. If you hang around when someone pulls a knife on you then you are a fool (at best) or a dead fool (at worst).

The major difference between BJJ and most other martial arts is the pressure testing in reality based situations (1 on 1 and no weapons). It was through this type of pressure testing that MMA was created. Any art that applies this strategy can be successful.
However, with respect to weapons, it is moronic to think that rolling around with a wooden knife and with predetermined moves will equip you in the event that some idiot jumps you with a knife. There has been no consideration given to the fact that you experience a massive adrenalin dump. Under normal circumstances you will just **** yourself. Faced with a fight or flight dilemma you should, as previously stated, use your adrenalin dump to fuel your sprint to safety.
At worst, you could be fooled into thinking that your "knife" sparring has given you the tools to defend yourself in this situation. This false confidence could lead you to hang around. Congratulations! you are now the proud owner of not one, but TWO belly buttons.

In bjj the training is focussed on the application of techniques against a resisting opponent. This is then taken a step further in competition whereby you have both a resisting opponent and an adrenalin dump.

The key here is that any reality based training will aid you. You cannot recreate reality based situation with weapons safely and get the adrenalin dump required. Therefore you cannot actually prepare yourself adequately for this scenario. Get real and get running.

By way of illustrating a point, copy and paste the url below and see the difference between someone who thinks they know what they're doing, and someone who trains in a pressure tested manner.

comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=1469

Back to the actual topic though. Best standard of BJJ in sheffield IMO is gracie barra

For someone with no interest in and no experience of training to defend yourself against weapons you seem to have an awful lot of opinions about them.
Maybe since you lack any kind of relevant experience you could in the future just keep your ramblings to yourself and we'll have more chance of staying on topic.

Someone delete this thread, it does neither club any favours.

Just try out all the BJJ clubs out and then decide for yourself.

Seriously dude, let it go. Despite numerous attempts to get this thread back on track you and toyhawk seem unable to let this knife **** go.

My opinions are just that, mine. I do not actually care THAT much about these things. Just the same as when the mormons come knocking on my door on a saturday morning. I did not ask them to come, i also did not start the conversation about religion. But i will still question their belief system. Because if something is that good it should stand up to a bit of tough questioning. And if they turn up at my door on a saturday morning, it had better be good.

Similarly, this thread was started about BJJ. Some fools (namely toyhawk and yourself cyclone) seem determined to hi-jack it and talk about knife defences. Now, i do not really give a toss, but seeing as you see fit to hi-jack the thread with this rubbish it had better be able to take a bit of tough examination. Sadly it failed. And no matter how many time you try and used your flawed logic to convince people, i for one am happy with my choices.
You may think that just because i choose not to play with toy knives that i am ill prepared for "the streets". So be it, i can live with it. Try not to cry yourself to sleep tonight though because someone doesn't hold any stock in knife defences. You can always console yourself with the fact that santa is real and he will be here in a few nights. oh wait a sec....

Maybe since you lack any kind of relevant experience you could in the future just keep your ramblings to yourself and we'll have more chance of staying on topic.

BWahahahaha! I Cannot believe i missed this first time round. Absolutely priceless. Cyclone, please read the thread title. That is all.

For someone with no interest in and no experience of training to defend yourself against weapons you seem to have an awful lot of opinions about them.

So, because Mr Cuffs doesn't have any experience in weapon defence he isn't allowed to have an opinion ? :huh:

Maybe since you lack any kind of relevant experience you could in the future just keep your ramblings to yourself and we'll have more chance of staying on topic.

Considering this thread is supposed to be about BJJ, I think Fingers has plenty of relevant experince. If you want to talk about your rubber knives, why not start your own thread ?

I didn't start the talking about knives, I just felt that I had to correct the misinformation and frankly stupid comments that were being made by people who hadn't the faintest idea what they were talking about.
I DIDN'T start talking about knives or weapons, but I will not see some closed minded ignorant people bad mouth weapons training, anymore than in a weapons thread people would just let slide a comment about grappling being crap and pointless (I don't believe that so don't bother flaming me).
Accept that you're wrong, that weapons training has value, and then it's done, case closed.

I didn't start the talking about knives, I just felt that I had to correct the misinformation and frankly stupid comments that were being made by people who hadn't the faintest idea what they were talking about.
I DIDN'T start talking about knives or weapons, but I will not see some closed minded ignorant people bad mouth weapons training, anymore than in a weapons thread people would just let slide a comment about grappling being crap and pointless (I don't believe that so don't bother flaming me).
Accept that you're wrong, that weapons training has value, and then it's done, case closed.

Still bleeting on eh?

Admit you're on the wrong thread and THEN it's case closed.

"i didn't start it" - how old are you?! grow up.

I speak from experience, you speak from ignorance.
Insults won't win you the argument, so don't bother with them.

you speak to deaf ears, you are also STILL on the wrong thread. The point is, and always will be, that this was a bjj thread.

Had i offered an opinion on a thread about weapons, then perhaps i would be prepared to listen to your opinion. But seeing as you and your cronies hi-jacked a thread for your own purposes, i will treat it with the contempt it deserves.

If you want a sensible discussion about weapons, i suggest you start a separate thread.

To be honest I would have to agree with you.
This thread is about BJJ and not Stick fighting,knife fighting or suicide bombers.

Wouldnt it be nice if people would stick to the topic :)

yeah BJJ RULES!!!!

I think Cyclone you'll find that I responded to a post by Troyhark that a BJJ practitioner would not be as good defending himself against knife attacks as practitioners of other arts. I do admit raising (as I was reading Renzo Gracie at the time) whether the claims of arts to defend themselves against knives were realistic. I stand by my view that in my experience (both life and training) I have never come across a knife defence I that I think would work. I don't think that means I am belittling any art; or do we just accept all claims made no matter how outlandish? I am prepared to change my view and I'm looking forward to attending to Lotar's club to see what they do. Noel Irwin, Victoria Hall Methodist Church, Norfolk Street, S1 2JB (not hiding behind a nickname)

you speak to deaf ears, you are also STILL on the wrong thread. The point is, and always will be, that this was a bjj thread.

Had i offered an opinion on a thread about weapons, then perhaps i would be prepared to listen to your opinion. But seeing as you and your cronies hi-jacked a thread for your own purposes, i will treat it with the contempt it deserves.

If you want a sensible discussion about weapons, i suggest you start a separate thread.
I think if one wanted a sensible discusion you wouldn't be invited!:P
Most of the 'difficulties and misunderstandings' with this thread are to do with your inability to read/think/reason.
The 'Deaf ears' comment about yourself is spot on, first accurate thing you've come out with.

Rather than talk you through how to start your own thread i have taken the liberty of creating one for you. You and soft bob or whatever cyclone's real name is, can go and stroke your weapons together.

The point is this is a BJJ thread but you seem determined to hi-jack it. The weapons thing started as a tangent. At that point i was mildly interested. I asked a couple of questions out of genuine curiosity. People started getting all precious about it. At the end of the day i will not loose any sleep over it, but you guys seem pretty annoyed if you and your toys get ignored.
One thing i find amusing though, and i have touched on this before, is that if something is genuinely that great surely it should stand up to a bit of questioning? Should i JUST take your word for it. Would i be a sensible human being if i beleived everything everyone told me?

We are talking survival insitincts are we not? preparation for the dangerous outdoors. I like to think of myself as pretty savvy and that i can make my own decisions and this skill equips me and helps me stay away from the bad men that you are playing with your toys to prepare for.
Yet when i question your practises, rather than answer the queries or tackle the debate, you get all defensive and start to cry and whinge about it.

Incidentally, if you said you didn't like BJJ i wouldn't care either. I would accept it as your choice.
I dont really care that you play with your toy knives. I just think you're wasting your time.

I like to think of myself as pretty savvy Well you certainly do not seem it. Anything but. Rather :loopy: in fact.
Yet when i question your practises, rather than answer the queries or tackle the debate, you get all defensive and start to cry and whinge about it. Err no, things were carefully and rationally explained, but you ignore every other word and spout nonsense in response. If you were to read what was actually posted, instead of what you thought was posted, it would make communication much easier.

Incidentally, if you said you didn't like BJJ i wouldn't care either. I would accept it as your choice.
I dont really care that you play with your toy knives. I just think you're wasting your time.
The impression you give out, is that you wouldn't bother learning German if you were going there for a few months, as seeing as there is no way you could learn 100% of German in that time, then there is no point in learning any. You have a closed minded, defeatist attitude and quite remarkably, you know without ever having tried something, as to it's efficacy.
BTW - the Language example is an analogy [go look it up] and not to be taken literally.
And if you were to learn some English, you also see that real knives were mentioned several times as being used in training.


"It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it and therefore he that can perceive it hath it not."

Well done, keep up the good work.


So, carefully and rationally explained..? On the wrong thread nonethelesss.


I have (as i have said previously) created a thread for you. Feel free to use it. I suspect that you wont. Your feeling for me wont allow you to. You love me like you loved your ex (soft bob). Even though we have only known each other for a short while, you find me irresistable.

As for communication. Well, the written word is a basic for of communication. Comprehension is an important part of this written form of communication. FYI the title of this thread is BJJ.

Unless you wish to contribute anything regarding BJJ, i would suggest that the information you wish to share is somewhat irrelevant.

Moving this debate on one step further, in a manner that challenges the more intellectual amongst us

Does anyone think that farting should be banned from Dojos?

The impression you give out, is that you wouldn't bother learning German if you were going there for a few months, as seeing as there is no way you could learn 100% of German in that time, then there is no point in learning any. You have a closed minded, defeatist attitude and quite remarkably, you know without ever having tried something, as to it's efficacy.
BTW - the Language example is an analogy [go look it up] and not to be taken literally.
And if you were to learn some English, you also see that real knives were mentioned several times as being used in training.


"It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it and therefore he that can perceive it hath it not."


Again, straying from the point. This thread is no more about german, than it is about the knives you brought up or the suicide bombers you brought up. I suppose those were all also analogies. Yet you are the person talking about being rational.

It is quite interesting that you keep making assumptions about me on several levels. You now assume that i only speak English. Do you know my heritage? Do you know if i am even English?
Don't judge me by your own mediocre standards

Again, straying from the point. This thread is no more about german, than it is about the knives you brought up or the suicide bombers. Yet you are the person talking about being rational.
Well did you type this just to demostrate your lack of reading skills/stupidity?
I actually said in the post - BTW - the Language example is an analogy [go look it up] and not to be taken literally. And quelle surprise, you took it literally.
You are completely without merit it seems and you seems to be farting online continually - to address mini_cooper's point. I'm sure you stink dojo out too.

The irony still escapes you doesn't it?

You are on here going through my posts and doing your best to pick them apart to try and score points. Yet you are inherently wrong because you have chosen to get arsey with me about my opinion on knife defences. An opinion i am perfectly entitled to. The reason you are inherently wrong is because you have chosen the wrong thread. Yet you are clutching at straws by trying to insult my communication skills. The irony, and i'll spell it out to you, is that if you just READ the thread title you will see that you are barking up the wrong tree.

Now i have started a thread on weapons for you. To try and stop you hogging this thread, but for some reason you are drawn to me and cannot leave it alone. The reason being, if you actually discuss weapons on the thread i have created, no one will read it because it is pretty lame actually. And you are afraid that you wont be able to flirt with me anymore, so you have to keep pulling my pigtails (that's a metaphor, i learnt about them at school and i thought it would impress you. Although i dont think i need to iimpress you because you already like me so much)

Well did you type this just to demostrate your lack of reading skills/stupidity?
I actually said in the post - BTW - the Language example is an analogy [go look it up] and not to be taken literally. And quelle surprise, you took it literally.
You are completely without merit it seems and you seems to be farting online continually - to address mini_cooper's point. I'm sure you stink dojo out too.


Well done on the edit a good 5 mins after my post, selectively removing any evidence of me mentioning anything about an analogy. I mean, it wouldn't have done anything for your point if you'd left it as it was. But feel free to quote me and adjust what i say to fit your argument if it helps.

The irony still escapes you doesn't it?

You are on here going through my posts and doing your best to pick them apart to try and score points. It's called debate, besides it's not exactly hard as they are Emmenthal like in contruction.
Yet you are inherently wrong because you have chosen to get arsey with me about my opinion on knife defences. An opinion i am perfectly entitled to. People got annoyed with your illiteracy, not that you have a different opinion
The reason you are inherently wrong is because you have chosen the wrong thread. Yet you are clutching at straws by trying to insult my communication skills. The irony, and i'll spell it out to you, is that if you just READ the thread title you will see that you are barking up the wrong tree.
You asked for info on knife defences "I am genuinely interested" or are you conveniently ignoring that gaping hole in your argument. You were given rational answers which you then misread. What seems to have escaped your tiny little and all too literal mind, is that a thread is a conversation. Conversations meander [esp. when original topic is tired] and anyone who uses Off Topic as a trump card, esp when they helped drag it OT as the sole rational for winning argument is a bit lacking in debating skills.
Now i have started a thread on weapons for you. So even more people can see how woolly headed you are, that's very genourous of you.

Well done on the edit a good 5 mins after my post, selectively removing any evidence of me mentioning anything about an analogy. I mean, it wouldn't have done anything for your point if you'd left it as it was. But feel free to quote me and adjust what i say to fit your argument if it helps.
No selective editing at all. You took analogy literally.
But I will now point out you did read that it was an analogy after all, yet you continued saying it is off topic comment, which only underlines your lack of understanding of what an analogy is. Keep digging.
And the suicide bomber was an example not an analogy, along with the other examples you always edit out, a violent drunk, a drug addict on angel dust, a pyschopath off his meds. All examples of people you cannot talk your way round.
You foolishly claimed to be able to talk anyone around. Therefore not only were the suicide bomber/crazed junkie/drunk/pyscho off his meds, on topic, but simply in reply to your naiive assertion.

People got annoyed with your illiteracy, not that you have a different opinion
You asked for info on knife defences "I am genuinely interested" or are you conveniently ignoring that gaping hole in your argument.

Firstly, What "people"? Are we talking you and cyclone? That must be what's known as a landslide is it? And are you just conveniently ignoring all the other people who have tried to get this thread back on topic.

Secondly, What illiteracy? Surely if i was illiterate then my posts would be illegible. I guess i'm doing pretty well at guessing where the letters are on the keyboard and how they go together to structure a sentence. i must be one lucky dude. I might give the lottery a bash this weekend.

Thirdly, I have addressed the fact that i was interested. I think if you read a few posts back i stated i was mildly interested to start off with, but then you and cyclone started getting all precious about it. When the topic wasnt even about knives. Then some moron brought suicide bombers into the equation and i lost interest all together.
If we are talking about convenience, perhaps you might like to address why you conveniently side stepped that comment, or are you guilty of not reading my posts either. You also failed to address why you altered my response when you quoted it. But that was pretty transparent as you can see from the times of the revisions that you atered yours a good five minutes after mine.

You foolishly claimed to be able to talk anyone around. Therefore not only were the suicide bomber/crazed junkie/drunk/pyscho off his meds, on topic, but simply in reply to your naiive assertion.


I'm still here aren't i? So why is it naive to say that i could (and have) talk anyone round. Lets look at the point in case.

You have one opinion, i have another. Through my charm you already love me and wont leave me alone. How do you find it difficult to understand that these charms will work on others. I haven't even tried with you, imagine if i turned it on. you'd be putty in my hands.

Firstly, What "people"? Are we talking you and cyclone? That must be what's known as a landslide is it? And are you just conveniently ignoring all the other people who have tried to get this thread back on topic.Several others also thought you were taking out of your posterior. But I doubt you noticed

Secondly, What illiteracy? Surely if i was illiterate then my posts would be illegible. I guess i'm doing pretty well at guessing where the letters are on the keyboard and how they go together to structure a sentence. i must be one lucky dude. I might give the lottery a bash this weekend. Your continued failure to correctly read other's posts is the issue.

Thirdly, I have addressed the fact that i was interested. I think if you read a few posts back i stated i was mildly interested to start off with, but then you and cyclone started getting all precious about it. When the topic wasnt even about knives. Then some moron brought suicide bombers into the equation and i lost interest all together. As I said not bering able to read other's posts.
If we are talking about convenience, perhaps you might like to address why you conveniently side stepped that comment, or are you guilty of not reading my posts either. You also failed to address why you altered my response when you quoted it. But that was pretty transparent as you can see from the times of the revisions that you atered yours a good five minutes after mine.I edited a typo of my own, I believe. I left your quote as I originally posted it.
And I addressed the fact that you do not understand analogies [or rational argument or facts that contradict your warped world view] and that suicide bombers/crazed junkies/violent drunks etc were examples actually. So as you continually demostrate your lack of reading ability, I am declaring you a lost cause and shall ignore your idiotic trolling in future.

Originally Posted by troyhark
You foolishly claimed to be able to talk anyone around. Therefore not only were the suicide bomber/crazed junkie/drunk/pyscho off his meds, on topic, but simply in reply to your naiive assertion.I'm still here aren't i? So why is it naive to say that i could (and have) talk anyone round. Lets look at the point in case.

You have one opinion, i have another. Through my charm you already love me and wont leave me alone. How do you find it difficult to understand that these charms will work on others. I haven't even tried with you, imagine if i turned it on. you'd be putty in my hands.How I wish I could test your [deluded] skills against all my examples. I challenged you a long time back, to go to Iraq and talk the militia there into not beheading you. I suggest you go and do so. Can't say it was nice knowing you.:loopy:

How I wish I could test your [deluded] skills against all my examples. I challenged you a long time back, to go to Iraq and talk the militia there into not beheading you. I suggest you go and do so. Can't say it was nice knowing you.:loopy:


I accept your challenge. Please send me the tickets. I will also require an expenses account, but for your convenience i will just take your credit card.
I dont really see why they would behead me, but i'm all for a free holiday. I see you are still assuming you know my nationality.

Just out of interest, challenging to send me to iraq because i dont agree with you on a debate about knife defences... how does that figure in your whole rational discussion point?

So knife defenses prepare you to take on not only knives, but also suicide bombers, and possibly the entire armed forces of Iraq?

I see I really have been missing out.

Just out of interest, challenging to send me to iraq because i dont agree with you on a debate about knife defences... how does that figure in your whole rational discussion point?
Nothing to do with knife defences. You claimed to be able to talk your way out of any situation. That's an example of a situation you may struggle with.

I think i might try and disagree with toyhawk about something important in the future. Then i reckon he might challenge me to go on holiday somewhere like florida. I reckon i could talk an alligator round too.

So knife defenses prepare you to take on not only knives, but also suicide bombers, and possibly the entire armed forces of Iraq?

I see I really have been missing out.
Fingerpooves is an illiterate troll who quotes at random and generalises from nothing. So nothing he says, that he attributes to anyone else, is to be believed.

Nothing to do with knife defences. You claimed to be able to talk your way out of any situation. That's an example of a situation you may struggle with.

Not really sure your answer makes sense. I asked you how "challenging to send me to iraq because i dont agree with you on a debate about knife defences... how does that figure in your whole rational discussion point?"

Seeing as you keep on harping on about being rational, i think it's pretty ironic that you are the least rational person i have encountered.


Also, when do i get my tickets for my holiday?



One more thing


"I am declaring you a lost cause and shall ignore your idiotic trolling in future." - I wonder who said that?

Fingerpooves is an illiterate troll who quotes at random and generalises from nothing. So nothing he says, that he attributes to anyone else, is to be believed.

Here you go again, trying to tell people what to say and do. I like the way you try to tell people what to think. Surely they can read the thread and make up their own minds.

Quoting at random perhaps, quoting accurately always. Unlike some meddling fools i could mention. Altered anyone's post you quoted recently Toyhawk?


"But I will now point out you did read that it was an analogy after all"

This is funny but to be fair you both obviously fancy each other!! This is not a dating site - BJJ may seem slightly homo-erotic but its no reason to flirt with each other on a public forum.

PS My weapon is bigger than both of yours!!!

So we have Gracie Barra, Royce Gracie Dronfield, Castle BBA, which is the best place to learn BJJ properly and are there any other teams around?


And I hope your satisfied, starting all this lot off?

What a silly question

This is funny but to be fair you both obviously fancy each other!! This is not a dating site - BJJ may seem slightly homo-erotic but its no reason to flirt with each other on a public forum.

PS My weapon is bigger than both of yours!!!


Damn! Rumbled.