Don't ask me why I've suddenly gone all interested in politics. It is kind of unlike me, but this has popped into my mind. I have a vague idea of the answer to the above question, but I would like to know what others think of it, and about it.

I hope it doesn't turn too negative, or that the Mods are too trigger-happy with bans or anything like that.

Please post constructive criticisms or opinions, and not generalisation or stereotypes, or mud-slung matches which are redundant and has no reasons behind them. Thank you. :)

Well. Depends on how you mean?

I'm happy living with anyone and from any background. As long as I don't feel intimidated.

Theres your first sensible repsonse bago. ;)

edit: how is it possible to typo in such a short response!

Anything that comes to mind when you think of the question. Any experiences, or thoughts, ideas, opinions ...

Just don't do a one-liner and be done with it, with no reasons.

i dont think it should be classed as multiculturalism, when we start putting labels on things/people then thats when things start to go wrong. I agree with djash1000 that as long as i dont feel intimidated then i dont care.

To me, multiculturalism is constructing a society in which the beliefs and attitudes of the different ethnic and religious groups that live in a particular area are viewed as being equally valid and are allowed to exist beside each other. Whether that's the dictionary definition or not I have no idea - that's how it seems to work. The DIFFERENCES are accepted without question as being acceptable.

Note that I didn't say 'different ethnic and religious groups that make up a society' because I honestly believe that multiculturalism leads to the formation of parallel but different 'societies' in which each group congregates with it's own.

I prefer integration, myself - if I went to live in Italy I'd expect to speak Italian, follow local laws and traditions, maybe hang on to a few British attitudes and beliefs for 'private' consumption, maybe invite a few of my friends to peculiarly British events that I might find. I could probably integrate smoothly in to North America, Australia and New Zealand, probably most of Western Europe, but that would be it. I KNOW that I couldn't integrate propely in to, say, Saudi Arabia so I wouldn't go there - I might be able to get a well paid job, etc. but the lifestyle is too alien and I wouldn't expect changes to be made on my behalf.

In Integration, the newcomers are expected to conform to the social and political norms of the place they're moving to. I think this is highly sensible. An example. I decide to move to London. I realise that I can't find a pint of Boddington's bitter in my new local. I raise Hell with the Landlord until he puts Boddies on. Hmmm.....don't reckon much to his London Local News - Where's Harry on Look North? Gonna have to ask the BBC if they can pipe it to me....

It's ridiculous, and I wouldn't behave like that, because I wouldn't move to London BECAUSE I'd miss my current lifestyle.

I believe that when you move to a new community or country, you shoudl do it because you're willing to integrate and leave most of your old life behind. You shouldn't be expecting your new hosts to set up a copy of your new life for you.

Integration - I'm cool with and I believe still brings the best of all worlds together.

Multi-culturalism - splits us apart.

But surely we are only mere products of our environments, and wherever you go, you will bring an aspect of yourself, albeit it personality, ethics, or customs ?

If I went to London, and I found a pub which served Boddingtons like the ones in Manchester do, then I may be inclined to stick with that one. So over a period of time, more people come in the same pub as me, cos they appreciate that beer. Is this 'not' integration ? Should I be trying for different beers in different pubs just so that I am seen by the public that I am trying to integrate and be a Londoner ? :confused:

To me, multiculturalism is constructing a society in which the beliefs and attitudes of the different ethnic and religious groups that live in a particular area are viewed as being equally valid and are allowed to exist beside each other. Whether that's the dictionary definition or not I have no idea - that's how it seems to work. The DIFFERENCES are accepted without question as being acceptable.

Note that I didn't say 'different ethnic and religious groups that make up a society' because I honestly believe that multiculturalism leads to the formation of parallel but different 'societies' in which each group congregates with it's own.

I prefer integration, myself - if I went to live in Italy I'd expect to speak Italian, follow local laws and traditions, maybe hang on to a few British attitudes and beliefs for 'private' consumption, maybe invite a few of my friends to peculiarly British events that I might find. I could probably integrate smoothly in to North America, Australia and New Zealand, probably most of Western Europe, but that would be it. I KNOW that I couldn't integrate propely in to, say, Saudi Arabia so I wouldn't go there - I might be able to get a well paid job, etc. but the lifestyle is too alien and I wouldn't expect changes to be made on my behalf.

In Integration, the newcomers are expected to conform to the social and political norms of the place they're moving to. I think this is highly sensible. An example. I decide to move to London. I realise that I can't find a pint of Boddington's bitter in my new local. I raise Hell with the Landlord until he puts Boddies on. Hmmm.....don't reckon much to his London Local News - Where's Harry on Look North? Gonna have to ask the BBC if they can pipe it to me....

It's ridiculous, and I wouldn't behave like that, because I wouldn't move to London BECAUSE I'd miss my current lifestyle.

I believe that when you move to a new community or country, you shoudl do it because you're willing to integrate and leave most of your old life behind. You shouldn't be expecting your new hosts to set up a copy of your new life for you.

Integration - I'm cool with and I believe still brings the best of all worlds together.

Multi-culturalism - splits us apart.

what a fantastic post! This, I expect pretty much sums up how most people feel at the moment. (myself included)

Well done Joe - ever considered writing to Mr Blair? (not that I think it'd change anything)

I agree with a lot of what Joe said there, except I think there's a middle ground, a partial integration.
In his example I see no reason why northeners in london shouldn't be able to open a pub and enjoy a pint of boddies whilst also sometimes going to a wine bar or drinking expensive imported lager.
Moving doesn't have to mean you throw away your past, but it does mean that you have to accept new things into your life.

But surely we are only mere products of our environments, and wherever you go, you will bring as aspect of yourself, albeit it personality, ethics, or customs ?


This is true and will never change. What needs to change is the way that many newer sections of our society limit their contact with the general population.

It is human nature to reject what we see as unusual. The way to form a multiculti society is not to try to force laws or daft PC ideals on us but to make all sections the norm.
Not to suggest that Muslims or anyone else change their religion or culture but I do suggest that these groups try more to be part of the country and the people who have been here all their lives try to learn about the newer cultures.

If you have understanding of others you loose the fears that come from mis-understanding.
That's the way to create a society where we can all live in peace.

Right on, Joe.

Part of the charm of the world today is that it has so much cultural variety - if everyone starts moving everywhere and keeping their own individual culture entirely static, all that will happen is that everywhere will become the exact same multiculturalism - boring for the lack of spatial variety, filled with friction and to be honest, possibly not viable. As Joe said, people moving from one place to another should accept that their new home has its own culture and try to accept that and learn how to work with it rather than setting their ideals, customs, languages and practices in unmalleable and uninvigorating clay.

You know well my views on religion, they are one reason as to why you wouldn't find me moving to a Mormon community in the Bible Belt of the USA, only to shout at them all and tell them how stupid they're being every day - it would do neither me nor them any good. Of course, I wouldn't be happy to move there and alter my own culture to fit into my new home because it is so at odds to my personal views - that's why I wouldn't move there at all!

If someone has a culture which only fits in with one geographical region, surely that region is where they should be?

It is human nature to reject what we see as unusual. The way to form a multiculti society is not to try to force laws or daft PC ideals on us but to make all sections the norm.

If you have understanding of others you loose the fears that come from mis-understanding.

That's the way to create a society where we can all live in peace.
However, to make these new cultural as the 'norms', steps were taken by the government to help this integration. Yet, the population now says that it favours one over the other ? It becomes a way of favouritism, and positive discrimination. So how can it be made to be the norm ?

I do agree that if you understand others as basic human beings, then everyone is actually the same. There's no fear about it. We still eat, live, drink, work, be spiritual.

Do you think that the government should take part in this integration business, or should this be left alone, and not be made as part of their policies ?

I agree with a lot of what Joe said there, except I think there's a middle ground, a partial integration.
In his example I see no reason why northeners in london shouldn't be able to open a pub and enjoy a pint of boddies whilst also sometimes going to a wine bar or drinking expensive imported lager.
Moving doesn't have to mean you throw away your past, but it does mean that you have to accept new things into your life.

I'd agree - it's inevitable that you'll want to keep some of your old customs going - but you shouldn't expect your new home community to pay for this to happen for you, or to change their way of doing things to suit you.

Again - another analogy - I'm a meat eater but will quite happily eat vegetarian. If I was invited to a vegetarian's house for a meal, it would be rather rude of me to turn up with a lump of raw meat in my bag, dump it on thei choping board and expect it to be coked for my supper. To me, that would be an extreme 'multicultural' approach - I'm maintaining my culture in paralllel with my host's culture. Integration would have me either going with whatever my hosts offer in vegetarian fare, or, if I'm desperate, bringing some slices of cooked meat to surreptitiously sneak a nibble at. :)

r this to happen for you, or to change their way of doing things to suit you.

Again - another analogy - I'm a meat eater but will quite happily eat vegetarian. If I was invited to a vegetarian's house for a meal, it would be rather rude of me to turn up with a lump of raw meat in my bag, dump it on thei choping board and expect it to be coked for my supper. To me, that would be an extreme 'multicultural' approach - I'm maintaining my culture in paralllel with my host's culture. Integration would have me either going with whatever my hosts offer in vegetarian fare, or, if I'm desperate, bringing some slices of cooked meat to surreptitiously sneak a nibble at. :)To take that analogy even further you would tell (not ask) them to eat meat too because it is seen politically incorrect from them to insult YOU by being veggies.

True, but equally if you moved into a house with vegetarians they shouldn't object that you cook meat for yourself and eat it. You can respect each others choices without trying to impose them on each other, and sometimes you can eat together (a vegetarian meal in that case).

To look at crayfish's analogy, it should be quite possible for him to move to bible belt america. Religion is a private thing and doesn't have to interfere in day to day life.

So long as people don't try to stay completely seperate from a host culture then partially integrated multi culturarism can work.

The way to make these new arrivals and cultures normal to UK society we must make them the norm.
Forget laws, PC crap and positive discrimination. The way to do this is allow the groups to mix.

No rubbish but show all groups that they are all pretty much the same as each others. Start with street parties with a range of religions and racial groups invited.
Show each other our food, culture and religions.
If we can make people understand each other in a positive way then the fear will melt away.
Last night I did a kid's party at a youth centre. I did a rapid fire multi culti quiz.
Just addred some questions about other cultures and religions in with things they understood well. It allowed me to encourage a little learning in a fun environment without having to resort to PC crap and having anyone moan to me about indoctrinating kids.
Asking how muslims commonly great each other was a way to win a prize and was just another question on the list of how to say hello in other languages.
It was just another question and not a pro muslim thing.
No one moaned and no one took offence.
Do it that way and there will be no problems except from the racist far right who are far too stupid to see that this is the only way that the UK can move forwards.

We are all just bags of crisps with a range of flavours.

To take that analogy even further you would tell (not ask) them to eat meat too because it is seen politically incorrect from them to insult YOU by being veggies.

No, he's visiting their house, and in addition it's their way of life that forbids something. Joe will happily eat vegetables or meat, so it's no hardship for him to have a vegetarian meal when visiting.

To take that analogy even further you would tell (not ask) them to eat meat too because it is seen politically incorrect from them to insult YOU by being veggies.


good point - I see where you're going with this!

There was a bloke on the news last night (following Mr blairs controversial speech) who was a self declared islamic extremeist.

He said that multiculturism does not works as he believes and wants everyone in the uk to live by the laws of islam.

No, but if you had one country that was entirely vegetarian and one that was omnivorous, and the omnivorous people all moved in with the vegetarians and vice versa, you'd have two omnivorous countries, hence a loss of variety. Probably with the more hardcore vegetarians hanging around only with other vegetarians in omnivorialand. Not sure how important a point that is in the scheme of things, but I do like the idea of being able to go to a foreign country and it feel foreign, rather than the same as anywhere else. I think this variety is already starting to diminish.

In the Bible Belt countries or for instance Saudi Arabia, I don't think religion is such a private thing and could definitely see it interfering in life - to fit into those places I think that someone would need to wholeheartedly and publicly embrace the culture and religion.

If the only way were full integration then you wouldn't be able to go to the local chinese or indian for a takeaway, as that part of their culture would have been discarded as incompatible.
Instead immigrants from the last 50 years brought part of their culture with them and you can get a takeaway, or eat in a chinese restaurant, you can also find a buddist temple if you wish and they'll be happy to show you around.

No, but if you had one country that was entirely vegetarian and one that was omnivorous, and the omnivorous people all moved in with the vegetarians, you'd have two omnivorous countries, hence a loss of variety. Not sure how important a point that is in the scheme of things, but I do like the idea of being able to go to a foreign country and it feel foreign, rather than the same as anywhere else. I think this variety is already starting to diminish.

In the Bible Belt countries or for instance Saudi Arabia, I don't think religion is such a private thing and could definitely see it interfering in life - to fit into those places I think that someone would need to wholeheartedly and publicly embrace the culture and religion.

Differences cause wars. If everywhere was a mix of everything and everyone the same, you couldn't align different groups and fight over anything as you'd all be one group.

Hmm, that's true actually. Do like my takeaways. Okay - you've sold it to me.

If the only way were full integration then you wouldn't be able to go to the local chinese or indian for a takeaway, as that part of their culture would have been discarded as incompatible.
Instead immigrants from the last 50 years brought part of their culture with them and you can get a takeaway, or eat in a chinese restaurant, you can also find a buddist temple if you wish and they'll be happy to show you around.


fair point but this is something we've got used to.

personally, I wouldn't miss these if it meant complete traditional british standards and culture was restored in this country.

I certainly wouldn't advocate washing everything away in a tide of Britishness, but it should be possible for Britain to still feel like a Britain with chinese and indian takeaways in, rather than somewhere with no culture of its own but just a kind of neutral ground for better defined cultures to mix together in. Not that I'm saying that's the way it feels now, but it's a possibility for the future I think.

At the end of the day though, I actually like multiculturalism (except perhaps when those cultures don't like me), not sure why I've put myself on this side of the argument.

The worst thing about so called multi culturism is having a different culture forced upon us by legislation i.e. if we have anything to say criticising this other culture it can be illegal, this tends to get peoples backs up and even turn them against something that they weren't especially interested in in the first place. Whenver there is legislation to prevent discrimination of any kind it is abused by a few of the people it is mean to protect whether it be culture, race, sex, age or whatever discrimination. This devalues the original good intentions of that discrimination law and creates problem with ALL of the community regardless of their culture.

What is multiculturalism to me ?

An idea that will never work, to expect people from different cultures to live happily side by side is quite simply laughable.

I certainly wouldn't advocate washing everything away in a tide of Britishness, but it should be possible for Britain to still feel like a Britain with chinese and indian takeaways in, rather than somewhere with no culture of its own but just a kind of neutral ground for better defined cultures to mix together in. Not that I'm saying that's the way it feels now, but it's a possibility for the future I think.

At the end of the day though, I actually like multiculturalism (except perhaps when those cultures don't like me), not sure why I've put myself on this side of the argument.


I would agree, but because a certian particular culture has very extreme views it can make it hard for us all to live in harmony.

No, but if you had one country that was entirely vegetarian and one that was omnivorous, and the omnivorous people all moved in with the vegetarians and vice versa, you'd have two omnivorous countries, hence a loss of variety. Probably with the more hardcore vegetarians hanging around only with other vegetarians in omnivorialand. Not sure how important a point that is in the scheme of things, but I do like the idea of being able to go to a foreign country and it feel foreign, rather than the same as anywhere else. I think this variety is already starting to diminish.

In the Bible Belt countries or for instance Saudi Arabia, I don't think religion is such a private thing and could definitely see it interfering in life - to fit into those places I think that someone would need to wholeheartedly and publicly embrace the culture and religion.
I personally would accept that there be extreme cliques of ethnic communities, or White British communities. Then the rest of us be somewhere in between. If a Yorkshireman can work in London, but still call himself a Yorkshire born and bred. Then why the analogy cannot be applied to others ? An Indian who have left India, but bred here to be British Indian ?

Personally speaking, even when I go abroad. I still feel like a foreigner. Even if I go to HK. I am very different to the locals there. This has been highlighted to me by my parents. It's what many Brit-born second generation feels. The lost of identity. Neither here nor there. What I think is that, the majority of the population do not know what is intrinsically authentic ethnic food. Nor do they understand that no ethnic minorities have fully integrated and stayed as their true selves by "foreign" standards. i.e. from their original roots or country.

I personally do not see that there will be a loss of Britishness at all. It is only until you go abroad and see what the culture is like, do you realise how "partial" (following Cyclone's definition here) integration has taken place here in the UK.

True, but equally if you moved into a house with vegetarians they shouldn't object that you cook meat for yourself and eat it. You can respect each others choices without trying to impose them on each other, and sometimes you can eat together (a vegetarian meal in that case).

To look at crayfish's analogy, it should be quite possible for him to move to bible belt america. Religion is a private thing and doesn't have to interfere in day to day life.

So long as people don't try to stay completely seperate from a host culture then partially integrated multi culturarism can work.
This is what I have always believed multiculturalism to be about too. Would I be told to get out even if I want to eat meat in their presence ? What if I was brought up to believe that I should have meat in every meal as part of a balanced diet ? Changing this basic ethic will change me.

The way to make these new arrivals and cultures normal to UK society we must make them the norm. Forget laws, PC crap and positive discrimination. The way to do this is allow the groups to mix.
I originally thought that PCness came about because there were also a few extremeists who fought for their land and country against the immigrants. In the form of extreme violence. I don't know how many people today know why the Racial Discrimination Act, or similar PCness came about at all. For an ethnic minority in this era, I don't doubt that they had no power, or knew of the rules of the land. So therefore possibly why such Acts were created.

Plus, also, many of the first generation immigrants were not educated at all. So therefore they had less chance of full integration, or even to know their rights as a citizen. It is also why governmental leaflets were in different languages. Many actually rely on their own ethnic community for support, and therefore were not able to get full support from the government. Second generations Brit-born ethnic minorities are different. As they have already understood the language and begins the integration process better !

No rubbish but show all groups that they are all pretty much the same as each others. Start with street parties with a range of religions and racial groups invited.
Show each other our food, culture and religions.
But this has always been here. There's different cultural or religious celebration in cities like Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc. Maybe the general population just woken up to realise of its existence, and therefore throw back the resentment. Yet, it has *always* been here already, maybe possibly as said, for open understanding and integration. If such activities are now highlighted, for those not in the know, they would think that this is favouritism. They would question where the money comes from. Who pays for it, etc etc. Most are probably donated by local businesses, and all the rest of it.

My memory suggests that racial equality laws were passed as a result of colour bars and so on in many walks of life. I see no problem at all with a law that says we should all be treated in the same way.

As for the PC rubbish I maintain that it has gone way too far and it now causes far more problems than it helps with.
I see "happy holiday" instead of happy christmas. What the hell is that about. I don't see people having a christmas party as anti anything but being a boring twit.
I don't know that many muslims in this country but I know none who are offended in any way that we mark christmas.
This PC crap does cause many people to go on that 'pakis' are taking over the country. Tell me how much good that is doing to keep the peace.

You are a little better off being chinese than some other races. While I would not deny that chinese are often the targets of race attack I do feel that you have less problems than some other groups.
I was with a chinese friend in Manchester a while ago when some racist **** bumped into her and made some chink comment. He was forced to back down after some choice words and physical threats from myself.
Same in a Barnsley pub a while ago with a british born Indian friend. Again some fat racist git banged into Rakesh after walking around me to do so.
Again some words did the trick. That sort of person would never learn that people are just people but the majority of people can.

All races have their good and bad. Chinese have snakeheads, Muslims have their extremists as do we in the BNP.
It again just goes to show that we are all the same. Some good, some bad and most just normal.

Just to add. As you may know someone accused me of racism a few days ago. It's that sort of ill informed crap by do gooders that causes resent and hinders the way forward to peace between all.

These people need to back off and learn that their version of what offends is not always the truth.

Happy holidays nobody.

Happy christmas everyone.

Happy holidays nobody.

Happy christmas everyone.


I might use that quote as my sig.... lol I love it!

I might use that quote as my sig.... lol I love it!


Thanks - I try. :)

As for the PC rubbish I maintain that it has gone way too far and it now causes far more problems than it helps with.
I see "happy holiday" instead of happy christmas. What the hell is that about. I don't see people having a christmas party as anti anything but being a boring twit.
I don't know that many muslims in this country but I know none who are offended in any way that we mark christmas.
This PC crap does cause many people to go on that 'pakis' are taking over the country. Tell me how much good that is doing to keep the peace.
I think I mentioned this somewhere else before on the SF before. Is the PCness and equality demanded from the ethnic minorities themselves, or is it non-ethnic minorities' own interpretation of what is racial equality and respect ? This is important to know because the resentments which are then directed at ethnic minorities who don't partake or give that much interests in politics would then take it from the wrong end of the stick, and see this as a direct offensive insult ! Especially not knowing where it came from. It is no wonder sometimes that there are antagonism and misunderstanding between groups of people.

You are a little better off being chinese than some other races. While I would not deny that chinese are often the targets of race attack I do feel that you have less problems than some other groups.
I was with a chinese friend in Manchester a while ago when some racist **** bumped into her and made some chink comment.
You think so ? I know that you know the problems that the chinese community faces never makes the headlines, and in an odd way, it's why people fear, and keep the peace by not getting involved. Or even voicing their opinions. So therefore groups or charities are created, and addresses this problem. However, I can envisage that, by doing so, the majority of the population won't believe, or would not address that antagonisms or resentments can lead to physical violence in this country.

*****. I just read on the forum that we post on about the knife attack over a stupid bag of prawn crackers ! Ridiculous.

If a Yorkshireman can work in London, but still call himself a Yorkshire born and bred. Then why the analogy cannot be applied to others ? An Indian who have left India, but bred here to be British Indian ?



But that Yorkshireman should also accept that he is in London, and not threaten people with a shotgun when they come near his house, possibly swap the flat cap for something a bit more cosmopolitan and keep his ferrets under control. I think there should be some adjustment rather than trying to drag Yorkshire a few hundred miles down south, Yorkshire's where it is and although a Yorkshireman might have Yorkshire principles, he should know that London principles take priority when in London; and certainly not get so stuck in his Yorkshire role that he won't talk to Londoners and ends up dismissing them as pipeless infidels.

God I love analogies.

Well to me, there are a few who have always will and do have Yorkshire beliefs in their hearts of hearts. As shown by come of the comments made in reaction to Tony Blair's latest speech. I feel that this goes the same for everyone. I know of people who support Mao, and still talk of his ideology today. It doesn't mean that I agree with them just because we may be from the same ethnic group.

Maybe this Yorkshireman was happy-go-lucky thinking that he will enjoy London because he had been told of what great people Londoners are. However, upon arrival, everyone harks on about how crap Yorkshire is. How people from up North is uneducated, and all the rest of it. Now, as a proud Yorkshire born and bred, won't the Yorkshireman feel angst at such responses from the general public ? Should he move, because others tell him to ? Because he have been black-balled in some ways by the majority of Londoners cos they don't know what Yorkshire is like, and is unwilling to even listen to him as an individual. i.e. they don't give him a chance, cos they have a built-up perception of him. Or rather, they became a little bit too smart, and think that he fit into a stereotype of Yorkshiremen. Maybe it is sometimes due to this kind of angst that makes the Yorkshireman build up the resentment towards the Londoners. Next thing you know, the Yorkshireman holds this grude too by being in London too long, and therefore starts to resent others. Maybe it is also because of this which makes him seek out pubs which makes him feel at ease. There must be a pub which serves him a pint of two like it used to at home.

You think so ? I know that you know the problems that the chinese community faces never makes the headlines, and in an odd way, it's why people fear, and keep the peace by not getting involved. Or even voicing their opinions. So therefore groups or charities are created, and addresses this problem. However, I can envisage that, by doing so, the majority of the population won't believe, or would not address that antagonisms or resentments can lead to physical violence in this country.

*****. I just read on the forum that we post on about the knife attack over a stupid bag of prawn crackers ! Ridiculous.

Last first. The prawn cracker man would have done that to anyone. Someone so stupid as to threaten murder over something so small must be a general nut case and I suspect less of a racist but more a general nutter.

I have many chinese friends in this and other areas. I see the many of the problems that they have and when I'm about I stand with them over any idiot that has a go. I have also seen young malaysian chinese girls sat crying after a night at work they have been insulted so many times. That makes my blood boil. I remember one time I was in a take away in Goldthorpe. A customer walked in anbd as cool as a cucumber asked the girl for a f***.
As luck has it she didn't understand but when she went in the kitchen I made the customer understand what would happen if he said it again.
However most of the direct racist insults I hear in public are aimed at 'pakis' rather than any other group.
Not that the people who call them pakis seem to have any idea what a pakistanni, indian, bangladeshi or whatever is.
I suppose that they don't see chinese as the same threat as muslims. No massive newspaper headlines about chinese stopping us having christmas and so on.
The typical racist chav I meet is often as thick as two short planks. I suspect they are less racist and more looking for someone to blame for their own stupidity.
That's what I see as odd witht he racists who post here. They don't seem that thick but still can't work out that people are not separated by race or religion so much as social conditions.

Last first. The prawn cracker man would have done that to anyone. Someone so stupid as to threaten murder over something so small must be a general nut case and I suspect less of a racist but more a general nutter.
That is the thing, when do you know whether the attack is on you because of race. Or when the attack is on you because you're just in the wrong place ? Why should the family in question have to deal with such things ? They're sitting ducks. I realise other memebrs of the SF may not know what we are on about. However, it still good point to talk of though. Everybody only think of one side of the story, and not in the other side too.

It's actually very hard to really keep it objective if one attack leads you to think it's race related, and the subsequent attacks are not. Racial crime are on the increase, and some of them are prosecuted as such incidences. The police who cannot distinguish one from another and feel biased, are not doing their duty properly. (Sod the stupid PCness. If someone offends someone because of race, throw the book at them ! Whether you're an ethnic minority or not. This includes me, I agree.) Yes, I do realise that racial crime from ethnic minorities to White British are also on the increase too. Such strong resentments are building inside young youths, and they are more likely to act out the violence. Ok, I won't say all, but a lot are young and misled. Some who take it into adulthood, are still as bad.

I have many chinese friends in this and other areas. I see the many of the problems that they have and when I'm about I stand with them over any idiot that has a go. I have also seen young malaysian chinese girls sat crying after a night at work they have been insulted so many times. That makes my blood boil. I remember one time I was in a take away in Goldthorpe. A customer walked in anbd as cool as a cucumber asked the girl for a f***.
As luck has it she didn't understand but when she went in the kitchen I made the customer understand what would happen if he said it again.
Yes, maybe if she understood the culture and think nothing of it, she may not take offence. However, for someone to come onto the premises and shout such things in a sexual context, and for you not to take it personally is a little bit hard. I too had to harden myself with such insensitivities ! I don't understand why others just put up with it. Many just let it go, and do not want to disturb the customers or rile them in anyway. Hence why chinese do not cause a problem, cos they don't darn speak up about it in case it offends ! (Maybe this lack of vocal voice means that chinese are seen as less integrative. I just realised this actually. Keep quiet, and you'll be seen as in agreement. :confused: If something is considered as wrong, it's still wrong.)

Definitely so for the first generation, but for this second generation which I myself falls in. Of course I will speak up. (Btw, I'm sorry if I offended you by taking one of your posts the wrong way, I hope you know exactly why I was offended by it. Maybe I shouldn't have been so offended by it, but I was. As shown by another poster elsewhere on the other forum, why he didn't trust you that much either ! Especially when you expressed your sexual desires jokingly or not to chinese women on there! Overtly sexual preferences of sorts to strangers are never welcomed. Others recognised it more easily, and joked it off. I didn't, and don't expect it.)

However most of the direct racist insults I hear in public are aimed at 'pakis' rather than any other group. Not that the people who call them pakis seem to have any idea what a pakistanni, indian, bangladeshi or whatever is. I suppose that they don't see chinese as the same threat as muslims. No massive newspaper headlines about chinese stopping us having christmas and so on.
No, I suppose not. Maybe this is because they are not that political. Maybe in the future, if more second generation are more politically minded, then this may change ? Who knows. Yes, I do think that even the chinese community is pretty insular in nature. This is discussed within the second generation of British Chinese a lot. Maybe the British Chinese would be strung up like meat if China ever attacks politically on Britain, or anything of the sort. All I know is that, many British muslims are claiming their own heritage back. After some pondering of their own identity. Some are branded as extremeists even if they feel that wearing the hijab as a way to connect back to their ethnicity/religious beliefs. How the heck can something so simple be so misconstrued as offensive !

The typical racist chav I meet is often as thick as two short planks. I suspect they are less racist and more looking for someone to blame for their own stupidity. That's what I see as odd witht he racists who post here. They don't seem that thick but still can't work out that people are not separated by race or religion so much as social conditions.
Ok, in your mind, what do you class as a racist ? I'm curious.

fair point but this is something we've got used to.

personally, I wouldn't miss these if it meant complete traditional british standards and culture was restored in this country.

I think that 'got used too' in this context means that our culture changed to incorporate these aspects of another culture.
Maybe there were people sat around with their flat caps and wippets drinking mild complaining bitterly that the chinese takeaway was stealing british culture and that they no longer lived in the country they grew up in.

Maybe there were people sat around with their flat caps and wippets drinking mild complaining bitterly that the chinese takeaway was stealing british culture and that they no longer lived in the country they grew up in.
:o abhorrent use of racial stereotyping!

Shame on you! :nod:

abhorrent use of racial stereotyping!

Shame on you!
I know ! Terrible. :hihi:
The guy should also be eating some pork scratchings as well. (Is that right?) :P

I used to know someone from my last workplace who didn't eat anything except traditional British food. I didn't used to understand why, but I still accepted it. I thought he was mad, not trying every food type there is in this world. Then again, it is different cultures. Penny dropped, years later. lol.

I guess what people don't know is that, integration happens slowly and surely anyway. My grand-dad used to use sweet carnation milk in his tea. He also used to butter bread with this too. (To my surprise, when I found that people did this too on the SF ! :) ) I used to love it as a kid. My grandad was probably in the UK before my dad did. Probably war ration made carnation the food to use ? My dad also loves his proper 'western' sit down meal with a knife and fork. I think it's the first thing he ever taught me when I came over here as a kid after being away for a few years. I still hold it the way he taught me too. He still loves his bacon whenever he's over here. Steaks and meat are still better here, than in the SE Asia region.

I don't know whether such things are multiculturalism at work. I don't know how many people actually thought about things like that. Little mannerisms, or food which has transported across the world to different regions, but actually, it stemmed from the UK. There's still a lot of Irish pubs across the world over, you know. Ok, not very British, I admit. Ironically, a lot of pubs overseas are called The Bulldog.

That is the thing, when do you know whether the attack is on you because of race. Or when the attack is on you because you're just in the wrong place ?

Can be hard to say but I have seen a 'racist' verbal attack on a chinese take away and the same kids calling the security guard at my workshop a fatty/baldy/puff or whatever. These type of people are just looking for trouble and are not racist as such. Race is just another excuse to be a git.

Yes, maybe if she understood the culture and think nothing of it, she may not take offence. However, for someone to come onto the premises and shout such things in a sexual context, and for you not to take it personally is a little bit hard. I too had to harden myself with such insensitivities ! I don't understand why others just put up with it.

Many do as I often see but I don't have to like it.
I see how so many people who work on the counters of chinese take aways having to put up with the little gits and I hate to see it.
We have a place close to wath comp school. The lad (malay chinese) on the counter takes all sorts of crap from the little ******** from that school.
He's OK and I see no reason why he has to put up with these things.

Definitely so for the first generation, but for this second generation which I myself falls in. Of course I will speak up. (Btw, I'm sorry if I offended you by taking one of your posts the wrong way, I hope you know exactly why I was offended by it. Maybe I shouldn't have been so offended by it, but I was. As shown by another poster elsewhere on the other forum, why he didn't trust you that much either ! Especially when you expressed your sexual desires jokingly or not to chinese women on there! Overtly sexual preferences of sorts to strangers are never welcomed. Others recognised it more easily, and joked it off. I didn't, and don't expect it.)

No problem. I claim to have a sense of humour but don't claim that's it's any good.
The thread was designed to gauge the use of the word 'chinky' as evidence that the word is in common use as slang for a chinese take away or whatever and not intended as an offence.
My later post on the same thread stated this but sadly the thread was deleated by the mods before I found out what I wanted to know.
Oh well, you win some.......
As it happens I do find chinese women, in general, attractive but I think you know my fiancee is Indonesian.

No, I suppose not. Maybe this is because they are not that political. Maybe in the future, if more second generation are more politically minded, then this may change ? Who knows. Yes, I do think that even the chinese community is pretty insular in nature. This is discussed within the second generation of British Chinese a lot. Maybe the British Chinese would be strung up like meat if China ever attacks politically on Britain, or anything of the sort.

In general chinese people are not seen as a threat to UK culture or britain in general. That's why you are not getting the same attention in the press as muslims.

All I know is that, many British muslims are claiming their own heritage back. After some pondering of their own identity. Some are branded as extremeists even if they feel that wearing the hijab as a way to connect back to their ethnicity/religious beliefs. How the heck can something so simple be so misconstrued as offensive !

Easy people can't or don't want to try to understand.

Ok, in your mind, what do you class as a racist ? I'm curious.

A racist attack is one that is conducted by someone who understands the politics of racism (or is indoctrinated in it) on a person as a direct result of their race. A kid shouting chinky or paki and then going on to a white guy and calling him a bald ******* isn't a racist. just an idiot.


Sorry I took a while to reply. Been a little busy and missed your post.