http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20061203.@02&irec=1

Avid fans of popular cleric Abdullah "AA Gym" Gymnastiar who regularly listen to his dawn sermons got the surprise of their life Saturday to hear him acknowledge he had formally taken a second wife.

Aa Gym, a 45-year-old turban-sporting cleric, is highly popular for his non-political, practical sermons. His frequent public appearances together with his family have made him a role model for a harmonious family.

Under Islamic teachings, taking a second wife is allowed but many progressive Muslims reject it, arguing that polygamy is a form of subjugation of women and the Holy Koran should be reinterpreted in keeping with the times.

While Teh Nini's mobile phone has been flooded with messages of sympathy, Aa Gym's is jammed with angry messages.


Perhaps Islam isn't an evil religion stuck in the past.

Discuss.

This ones going to stir up a Hornets nest again.

The Lefty Liberals and the Right wingers debating/argueing

Sit back and wait for the fireworks...

This ones going to stir up a Hornets nest again.

The Lefty Liberals and the Right wingers debating/argueing

Sit back and wait for the fireworks...
its just same old same old regurgitating :rant:

i don't think muslims live in the past because they don't have to. in modern britain the muslim community have their freedom, local businesses and a general feeling of well being that they would not have living elsewhere. i think most muslims are quite happy to live in the present.

i don't think muslims live in the past because they don't have to. in modern britain the muslim community have their freedom, local businesses and a general feeling of well being that they would not have living elsewhere. i think most muslims are quite happy to live in the present.
They cannot live in the present era, except physically. They mentally believe that the World is set in stone from the moment that the Koran was written down.
From that moment, until the end of the Universe, it is unchanging law.
Not one letter or word can be altered, ever, for all of eternity.
This is why they do not consider other religions, which evolve along with mankind to be worthy of consideration.

A muslim cleric in Indonesia takes a second wife, and upinwath thinks this is worthy of discusson. It would seem to me to be a legal practice in that country, so what is there to discuss?

However, did upinwath miss the current trial taking place in the USA regarding the taking of multiple wifes and the rape of a minor? Check the story here....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1953193,00.html

Is Christianity an evil religion stuck in the past?

Discuss.

Regrettably, though the trappings of modern society are available and utilised, many Muslims keep their ideals and morals firmly back in the Middle Ages.
This makes for rather interesting conflicts in the way that countries like Kuwait, Saudi, and Iran are governed.

A muslim cleric in Indonesia takes a second wife, and upinwath thinks this is worthy of discusson. It would seem to me to be a legal practice in that country, so what is there to discuss?

However, did upinwath miss the current trial taking place in the USA regarding the taking of multiple wifes and the rape of a minor? Check the story here....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1953193,00.html

Is Christianity an evil religion stuck in the past?

Discuss.So which is the more relevent, a one-off case where somedody does something that is not typical of his nation or religion, or an event which represents an entirely different, and contrary, way of living which is embraced by many people in our country, contrary to our taditional beliefs and values? Discuss that.

Regrettably, though the trappings of modern society are available and utilised, many Muslims keep their ideals and morals firmly back in the Middle Ages.


Unlike the stone age tendencies demonstrated by some contributors to this board.

Don't like it? Don't understand it? Well just wipe it out then!

Unlike the stone age tendencies demonstrated by some contributors to this board.

Don't like it? Don't understand it? Well just wipe it out then!
yeah :thumbsup:

This won't end well.

ib20+pages

So which is the more relevent, a one-off case where somedody does something that is not typical of his nation or religion, or an event which represents an entirely different, and contrary, way of living which is embraced by many people in our country, contrary to our taditional beliefs and values? Discuss that.

Could you clarify what "contrary way of living" is "embraced by many people in our country"? :huh: Are we still discussing polygamy, or have you gone off-subject?

Where is your evidence that many people in our country embrace polygamy? I've not seen any press reports of any polygamists on trial in the UK. Perhaps you can enlighten me please.

However, did upinwath miss the current trial taking place in the USA regarding the taking of multiple wifes and the rape of a minor? Check the story here....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1953193,00.html

Is Christianity an evil religion stuck in the past?

Discuss.

I did miss it but thanks for bringing it up.
Nasty christain rapes kid story against muslim country starts to reject multiple marrages.
As it happens I know that in malaysia single marrages are considered the norm.
Just goes to prove that there is good and bad in both so the difference is less that many would have us believe.

I hope you aren't endorsing forced multiple male marriages (polygamy) no matter what country they exist in ...

The difference is that in the second case you cite, the US government have been trying to stamp this practice out for many, many years. In the first case, as you say it's legal ... what IS there to discuss?


A muslim cleric in Indonesia takes a second wife, and upinwath thinks this is worthy of discusson. It would seem to me to be a legal practice in that country, so what is there to discuss?

However, did upinwath miss the current trial taking place in the USA regarding the taking of multiple wifes and the rape of a minor? Check the story here....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1953193,00.html

Is Christianity an evil religion stuck in the past?

Discuss.

Returning to the subject of the thread, I think that in certain places Islam appears to be undergoing a kind of reverse reformation, i.e. some Islamists are seeking a return to a 'pure' form of Islam based on the literal interpretation of certain texts. Conversely, a reformation comparable to the Protestant reformation would seek to adapt Islam to prevailing cultural norms and values and to an understanding of the world which is informed by scientific rationalism (at least to some extent). This reverse reformation will in my view prove to be a dead end, but unfortunately it will probably cause a lot of pain and mischief both for its adherents and the rest of us before it ends - hopefully with a whimper, not a bang. :thumbsup:

I hope you aren't endorsing forced multiple male marriages (polygamy) no matter what country they exist in ...

Forced multiple male marriages? Where did that come from??

Forced multiple male marriages? Where did that come from??
Elton John's autiobiography?

I hope you aren't endorsing forced multiple male marriages (polygamy) no matter what country they exist in ...

The difference is that in the second case you cite, the US government have been trying to stamp this practice out for many, many years. In the first case, as you say it's legal ... what IS there to discuss?
Exactly - and succinctly put.

Forced multiple male marriages? Where did that come from??

The words were all there, maybe not in the absolutely correct order, for those who always want to wilfully misunderstand :hihi:

The link redrobbo provided was about young girls being coerced or forced (by males) into marriages with multiple other wives. He was trying presumably to draw a parrellel between (Christians) in the USA where it's illegal and (Muslims) in Indonesia where it's legal. I can't understand what his point was, can you?

ive never understood why muslim women wear veils. i know it is a religious ritual but why?. don't they realise they look silly. im sure they would look nicer without the veil unless they are really ugly.

The words were all there, maybe not in the absolutely correct order, for those who always want to wilfully misunderstand :hihi:

The link redrobbo provided was about young girls being coerced or forced (by males) into marriages with multiple other wives. He was trying presumably to draw a parrellel between (Christians) in the USA where it's illegal and (Muslims) in Indonesia where it's legal. I can't understand what his point was, can you?

I was actually looking for anything about force being a part of polygamy (which it isn't) or anything about force in the original case presented?

ive never understood why muslim women wear veils. i know it is a religious ritual but why?. don't they realise they look silly. im sure they would look nicer without the veil unless they are really ugly.

you could have hit the nail on the head -it gives equality to all the ugly ones, and fools the prospective bridegrooms, plus an enormous advantage to all those who don't wear one (including non-muslims)

ive never understood why muslim women wear veils....

It's to stop men gettin the horn,
and ravishing 'em.

Apparantly.

I hope you aren't endorsing forced multiple male marriages (polygamy) no matter what country they exist in ...

The difference is that in the second case you cite, the US government have been trying to stamp this practice out for many, many years. In the first case, as you say it's legal ... what IS there to discuss?

Whats wrong with polygamy ? If the parties are all happy why is it an issue ?

Personally, it takes years off a blokes life with just one woman, so two or more are definately an early death.

They cannot live in the present era, except physically. They mentally believe that the World is set in stone from the moment that the Koran was written down.
From that moment, until the end of the Universe, it is unchanging law.
Not one letter or word can be altered, ever, for all of eternity.
This is why they do not consider other religions, which evolve along with mankind to be worthy of consideration.

Thats just another one of your rants Artisan.
It is not unchanging law, its more a constitution to which things can be and have been added. If you were to take of your Islamaphoblic spectacles you'd realise that.

Regrettably, though the trappings of modern society are available and utilised, many Muslims keep their ideals and morals firmly back in the Middle Ages.
This makes for rather interesting conflicts in the way that countries like Kuwait, Saudi, and Iran are governed.

keeping morals as opposed to loosing morals ?

Rather than point fingers at others, its probably wiser to try and figure out why our society is going down the tube with the breakdown in the family and all the other various social ills we're experiencing.

If the direction in which our society is going where we have had an increase of 800% in ten years of kids being locked up then how the hell you can sell our "culture" is beyond me.

Returning to the subject of the thread, I think that in certain places Islam appears to be undergoing a kind of reverse reformation, i.e. some Islamists are seeking a return to a 'pure' form of Islam based on the literal interpretation of certain texts. Conversely, a reformation comparable to the Protestant reformation would seek to adapt Islam to prevailing cultural norms and values and to an understanding of the world which is informed by scientific rationalism (at least to some extent). This reverse reformation will in my view prove to be a dead end, but unfortunately it will probably cause a lot of pain and mischief both for its adherents and the rest of us before it ends - hopefully with a whimper, not a bang. :thumbsup:

Generally those countries are the ones where there has been a breakdown of law and order along with decades of conflict.

Where there has been relative peace the society has progressed rather well.

keeping morals as opposed to loosing morals ?



For my benefit and perhaps for other posters, could you pinpoint me to a list of what Muslim morals consist of please? I guess basic things like this have been lost or misunderstood in the current political climate.

Whats wrong with polygamy ? If the parties are all happy why is it an issue ?

Personally, it takes years off a blokes life with just one woman, so two or more are definately an early death.
So you would be perfectly happy sharing your wife, or girlfreind with four or five other blokes then?
If you were only allowed into her presence on the chosen night, when she wasnt with some other bloke?
I am sure you would be overjoyed with that arrangement, or does this only apply to men?
The more you read about things like this, the more you realise how little self respect muslim women have for themselves.
In this day and age it is just not acceptable.
How human beings can so debase themselves is beyond me.

Generally those countries are the ones where there has been a breakdown of law and order along with decades of conflict.

Where there has been relative peace the society has progressed rather well.


Until some nutcase cleric comes along and stirs up trouble and suggest that young men become suicide bombers. How come they never blow themselves up?

How human beings can so debase themselves is beyond me.

My dear artisan. tis not a question of debasing oneself, tis a question of removing the need for rational thought. That is what all religion does................you follow it you deserve everything you get.

So you would be perfectly happy sharing your wife, or girlfreind with four or five other blokes then?
If you were only allowed into her presence on the chosen night, when she wasnt with some other bloke?
I am sure you would be overjoyed with that arrangement, or does this only apply to men?
The more you read about things like this, the more you realise how little self respect muslim women have for themselves.
In this day and age it is just not acceptable.
How human beings can so debase themselves is beyond me.

I think your trying to apply your cultural norms to another culture here which doesn't really work. Polygyny (one man - several wives) is culturally normal in large parts of Africa and the midle east. Polyandry (one woman several husbands) is culturaly normal in Nepal and parts of China. Though polygamy (where there is mariage involved) may not be particularly common but polyamoury (multiple relationships but not marriage) isn't exactly uncommon in the UK.

keeping morals as opposed to loosing morals ?

Rather than point fingers at others, its probably wiser to try and figure out why our society is going down the tube with the breakdown in the family and all the other various social ills we're experiencing.

If the direction in which our society is going where we have had an increase of 800% in ten years of kids being locked up then how the hell you can sell our "culture" is beyond me.
By all means name a predominantly Muslim country which has 'better' morals than the UK.

By all means name a predominantly Muslim country which has 'better' morals than the UK.

i think the long silence means nobody can answer your question.

Whats wrong with polygamy ? If the parties are all happy why is it an issue ?


The news story on the original link has changed, or else I would have quoted it direct. But the first wife quoted was by no means freely happy with the arrangement. She wa forcing herself to fit in with the arrangement from the stance of realistically having no choice. How can a woman have a choice in a culture which states that she should obey her husband's wishes at all times?


Personally, it takes years off a blokes life with just one woman, so two or more are definately an early death.

How casually pro-islamic misogynists dismiss the humanity of 50% of the human race.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20061203.@02&irec=1


Perhaps Islam isn't an evil religion stuck in the past.

Discuss.



is this thread anti muslim? yes more than one wife is allowed etc etc.this is really beginning to f me off. :rant: :rant: that such postings are allowed for a kick off!!:loopy:

a lot of misinterpretation there..hope people will learn to accept,understand and tolerate with others first before come out with 'fireworks'...

By all means name a predominantly Muslim country which has 'better' morals than the UK.

countries dont have morals, peoples/societies have morals and our society has sadly been loosing morals at a rate equal to the loss of ozone.

Until some nutcase cleric comes along and stirs up trouble and suggest that young men become suicide bombers. How come they never blow themselves up?

same reason that until some nutcase president doesn't come along the army doesn't invade countries willy nilly.

[QUOTE=El-Mariachi]


The news story on the original link has changed, or else I would have quoted it direct. But the first wife quoted was by no means freely happy with the arrangement. She wa forcing herself to fit in with the arrangement from the stance of realistically having no choice. How can a woman have a choice in a culture which states that she should obey her husband's wishes at all times?


QUOTE]

How casually pro-islamic misogynists dismiss the humanity of 50% of the human race.

Okay aside from the point that if she's not happy then she can get a divorce, are you saying that there are no such couples who are "happy" with the arrangement ?

On the assumption that there are couples who are happy with polygomy, can you explain why you have an issue with their arrangements ?

How casually anti-islamic feminists dismiss the humanity of the other 50% of the human race. :thumbsup:

countries dont have morals, peoples/societies have morals and our society has sadly been loosing morals at a rate equal to the loss of ozone.
What a pathetic attempt to dodge a perfectly reasonable question with semantics.

Ok then, name a predominantly muslim society which has 'better' morals than the society we have in UK.

Also by what system of morality are you judging the morals of the citizens of the UK?