An Abundance of stealth taxes have cost pension funds over 100 billion pounds leaving them vulnerable when the stockmarket crashed. Pensions are in crisis, firms are scrambling to close final salary schemes.

Millions of people who looked forward to a comfortable old age now face stark futures.

Never fear, New Labour to the rescue. Trumpeting its politically correct credentials they promise to outlaw ageism. If anyone wants to work until 70, thats fine! Is it though?

While politicians have awarded themselves platinum plated protected pensions, endless amounts of people who have worked hard for the whole of their lives in the expectation of half decent retirement pensions at 65 are now left in a limbo of unsureness.

In my opinion this is a betrayal of the honest people of this country, having wrecked pensions, New Labour is preparing you for one of the only policies it has left. Work till you drop!

You damn right, and if anyone wants to work until there 70 then they are sad.
The retirement age should be lowered so our young people can have jobs.
How many people work until 65 and drop dead at 66, thats got nothing to do with boredom its a fact of life we work all our life to live then 'Boom' ya numbers up.
We should all retire at 60 so then at least we can all get some benefit from our twilight years before its to late.
When was the last time anybody on there death bed said i wish i'd spent more time in the office.
Many people want to work till they drop, the cemeterys are full of them.

Originally posted by Lickszz
An Abundance of stealth taxes have cost pension funds over 100 billion pounds leaving them vulnerable when the stockmarket crashed. Pensions are in crisis, firms are scrambling to close final salary schemes.

Millions of people who looked forward to a comfortable old age now face stark futures.

Never fear, New Labour to the rescue. Trumpeting its politically correct credentials they promise to outlaw ageism. If anyone wants to work until 70, thats fine! Is it though?

While politicians have awarded themselves platinum plated protected pensions, endless amounts of people who have worked hard for the whole of their lives in the expectation of half decent retirement pensions at 65 are now left in a limbo of unsureness.

In my opinion this is a betrayal of the honest people of this country, having wrecked pensions, New Labour is preparing you for one of the only policies it has left. Work till you drop!

It's the tories fault!
Well, I suppose I could try and start a party political argument by pointing out that the Conservative government effectively permitted the mis-selling of millions of pension schemes to people in the late 80s.

Pensions are all doomed now!
The economics of the day lead to a situation where the tories realised that they wanted to give virtually all responsibility for pensions to the private sector. The government basically realised that it would never be able to pay annuities to the growing number of people who lived long, long, beyond retirement age

Thanks to the tories
The tories immediately turned to the financial services and then suddenly everyone could sell a brand name pension to you with 3 days training, a cheap suit and a clipboard.

"yes sir, opt out of serps sir, much more money, that's right sir, sign here sir" [collects handsome commission that is paid with every pension contribution made by the 'customer']

But Labour are justa buncha clowns...
So I'm not going to bother with the party political thing because its a bit like arguing about your least favourite kind of dog turd.

[edited - bold, caps, quotes, usual]

Of course a natural counter argument is to blame the Tories, both colours are to blame IMO. For twenty years now, the markets, banks, and pretty much every financial institution you care to metnion have been warning everyone about decreasing pension funds coupled with a sharp increase in people of pensionable age. More pensioners, living longer means pension crisis. This scenario was originally highlighted two decades ago. Who was in power for the majority of this time and chose to ignore the warning...of course it was Maggie and then Johnny.

During the 80s there was a short window of opportunity for early retirement because the stock market was artificially booming. Even then all the right minded people and institutions warned that this was going to be a short term ride causing more trouble in the long term. In 1987 Kinnock apparently warned that the credit driven boom would end in a sharp crash and the main losers would be pensioners in 10 to 20 years time; Of course Kinnock was labelled a doom mongered and told that he was suffering from so called "Labour Envy".

Well all the blue rinses and middle class 50 something’s went out and voted Tory. You were warned.

The fact that this government under Blair seem prepared to address the pension issue is very good indeed, because if the Tories were in power their heads would probably be firmly in the sand on the pension issue. Why, because the Pensions problem affects the less well off in society distortionally to the more well off. However, while labour are supposed to be addressiong this situation all they really seem to be doing is Fanny Adams.

Blair appointed Frank Field to look at pensions and "think the unthinkable"? And what happened he sacked Field for doing just that.

Then Brown raised OAP taxes, Now how much was it 60p? Then he abolished tax relief on medical insurance, throwing hundreds of thousands back into the NHS which is still unable to cope, and then he taxed pension dividends of the Insurance and Pension Funds.

Private Member Bills have been attempted to enable people to shop around with their annuities, or to defer them as a lump sum but No the Labour party deliberately blocked the Bills.

The Pension Fund Partnership shows that one-third of final salary schemes - the gold standard of the industry have been closed. The biggest single factor behind this time bomb was Gordon Brown's decision, in his first year as Chancellor to remove tax privileges which dividend payments made to funds attracted.

Initially the cost of this was put at £5billion a year. But calculations recently done by leading City figures put the true price at an astonishing £100billion accounting for the larger part of the £160billion hole that currently exists in British pensions.

As with the Health Service, Rail and Road transport, Immigration etc etc, Pensions have now been added to some of the shambolic policies of New Labour.

And what do they waste valuable parliamentry time arguing about? The Fox.

I am going to work until I am NINETY. Ha Ha.

Originally posted by halevan
I am going to work until I am NINETY. Ha Ha.

Where at B & Q? :lol:

An Abundance of stealth taxes have cost pension funds over 100 billion pounds leaving them vulnerable when the stockmarket crashed. Pensions are in crisis, firms are scrambling to close final salary schemes.

Millions of people who looked forward to a comfortable old age now face stark futures.

Never fear, New Labour to the rescue. Trumpeting its politically correct credentials they promise to outlaw ageism. If anyone wants to work until 70, thats fine! Is it though?

While politicians have awarded themselves platinum plated protected pensions, endless amounts of people who have worked hard for the whole of their lives in the expectation of half decent retirement pensions at 65 are now left in a limbo of unsureness.

In my opinion this is a betrayal of the honest people of this country, having wrecked pensions, New Labour is preparing you for one of the only policies it has left. Work till you drop!

Congratulations, you were more right than you could ever have imagined.

When I was just 26, I planned my pension so thet I could retire at 60. I went without all the luxuries my mates were enjoying, kept payin in and going without the fun side of life. Now I am told I am in the age bracket that will probably have to work till 67 !!!!!!
I wouldn't mind if it was MY choice, but to be told that, well. it's a kick in the teeth. Now I am wishin I had not provided for myself and just sponged off the state so I could spend more of my autumn years in luxury. Suppose I should have known better, I saw my Dad retire on a pension he had paid into for donkeys years, only to see others that had ****** their money up against the wall livin in the same street on benefits with new cars and no rent to pay. WHAT A SHAMBLES>
My advice to you, don't work. don't make provision for the future, for gods sake don't save, and don't buy your own home, it will all be taken off you, even though you did the same job, and earned the same wage as a waster all your life, you will get NOTHING BACK.
Of course the next generation (our kids) will have nothin cos it will have all gone, but hey!!!! Don't get me on to those who decide they won't work by choice/

When I was just 26, I planned my pension so thet I could retire at 60. I went without all the luxuries my mates were enjoying, kept payin in and going without the fun side of life. Now I am told I am in the age bracket that will probably have to work till 67 !!!!!!
I wouldn't mind if it was MY choice, but to be told that, well. it's a kick in the teeth. Now I am wishin I had not provided for myself and just sponged off the state so I could spend more of my autumn years in luxury. Suppose I should have known better, I saw my Dad retire on a pension he had paid into for donkeys years, only to see others that had ****** their money up against the wall livin in the same street on benefits with new cars and no rent to pay. WHAT A SHAMBLES>
My advice to you, don't work. don't make provision for the future, for gods sake don't save, and don't buy your own home, it will all be taken off you, even though you did the same job, and earned the same wage as a waster all your life, you will get NOTHING BACK.
Of course the next generation (our kids) will have nothin cos it will have all gone, but hey!!!! Don't get me on to those who decide they won't work by choice/

It's a sad state of affairs, as they say. I met an old mate I used to know from work who'd had a heart attack last year. His wife is in a crap job and although he'd always put into a private pension, it's now worth half what it was 3 years ago . . . so he's had to come out of retirement and she's still stuck in the stress filled job at 65.

And what's really annoying is that all this has to do with 30 something investment bankers who'll never have to be concerned about paying the mortgage, or putting food on the table. It's sickening how reliant the whole system is on what occurs in Londons square mile.

I'm as sick as you lot over this.
I also planned to retire at 60 (this year) as i have seen too many pop their clogs at 66 just after they have finished.

I have also gone without to save for the future.
3 years ago i started to get my finances together and it was a very realistic chance that my plan was OK and i could finish and be reasonably well off.

Well that's all gone to pot now. My pensions and ISA's are worth just over half of what they was 3 years ago. God knows when i'll be able to finish now. Probably when i drop down dead.

When I was just 26, I planned my pension so thet I could retire at 60. I went without all the luxuries my mates were enjoying, kept payin in and going without the fun side of life. Now I am told I am in the age bracket that will probably have to work till 67 !!!!!!
I wouldn't mind if it was MY choice, but to be told that, well. it's a kick in the teeth. Now I am wishin I had not provided for myself and just sponged off the state so I could spend more of my autumn years in luxury. Suppose I should have known better, I saw my Dad retire on a pension he had paid into for donkeys years, only to see others that had ****** their money up against the wall livin in the same street on benefits with new cars and no rent to pay. WHAT A SHAMBLES>
My advice to you, don't work. don't make provision for the future, for gods sake don't save, and don't buy your own home, it will all be taken off you, even though you did the same job, and earned the same wage as a waster all your life, you will get NOTHING BACK.
Of course the next generation (our kids) will have nothin cos it will have all gone, but hey!!!! Don't get me on to those who decide they won't work by choice/

I planned to start a private pension when i was 25, i never did (i'm 38 now), and i'm glad of it now. Everyone i know who started one has said they are worth no more, and some of them less, than if they had put the money under the mattress.

I agree with the above post too, that's why i won't be voting 'New Labour' at the next election, even though i had previously, mainly due to being a working-class bloke from Sheffield, as you felt you had to by birthright!. Too many people take advantage of a lax benefits system , and too many people are not prepared to take responsibility for themselves, just sitting back and expecting the state to wet-nurse them through life.

It is noticable that all the usual 'New Labour' voters haven't been on this thread spouting the usual anti-tory stuff

I have a mortgage, which when paid will be my pension if i live beyond 68, as the house sale will be my income if i am on my own at that stage in my life, and that is if the pension age has increased further, which it no doubt will have in 30 years time from now :mad:

It is noticable that all the usual 'New Labour' voters haven't been on this thread spouting the usual anti-tory stuff


Oh they will, dude. They will.

But they're not 'New Labour' or 'lefties' any more. Oh no. They've tried to re-invent themselves as 'centre-left' or even 'meritocrats'.

Tony Blair? Never heard of him, guv.

Slightly off topic but relevent......
Have you noticed the public sector workers starting to squeal about the proposed cuts? Even though nothing has happened yet, and big changes simply will not happen.
It's time they realised how lucky they are with their (almost) unlimited sick leave, fantastic holiday entitlement, big union support, superannuated pensions, etc.etc.etc. Don't get me wrong, good luck to them but....
they have it so good they can't see the wood for trees, and all we hear is "we are paid less than the private sector.... In ya dreams!!!
Another quote I heard last week from someone in the public sector, "We are going to have to pay for the mistakes of the private sector"
Well, it's the private sector that pays for the public sector isn't it?
We wouldn't have a massive public sector monster without industry and private companies paying into the system.

Slightly off topic but relevent......
Have you noticed the public sector workers starting to squeal about the proposed cuts? Even though nothing has happened yet, and big changes simply will not happen.
It's time they realised how lucky they are with their (almost) unlimited sick leave, fantastic holiday entitlement, big union support, superannuated pensions, etc.etc.etc. Don't get me wrong, good luck to them but....
they have it so good they can't see the wood for trees, and all we hear is "we are paid less than the private sector.... In ya dreams!!!
Another quote I heard last week from someone in the public sector, "We are going to have to pay for the mistakes of the private sector"
Well, it's the private sector that pays for the public sector isn't it?
We wouldn't have a massive public sector monster without industry and private companies paying into the system.

I was wondering if the uptake % wise for paying into pensions is higher in the public sector then the private? I've paid into a pension since I was 23 (public sector), it is something that I am very aware of as my father is an electrician is having to try to pay as much into his private pension as he started late and it's not worth much, it will be a massive drop in living standards if he did not do something about it.

I fully expect by the time I get to retirement age (35+ years yet!) it will be moved up to 70. I hope I get to that age and am healthy to be able to enjoy it. The scary thought is that if you have an older partner (even by 10 years) they will be 80 by the time you retire and less likely to be around to enjoy it with you! The average age expectancy in Sheffield in 2006 was 78.5 years. I think the people that bought into property when it was cheap have got the best pension schemes going.

I would not worry about the public secor for too long anyway, I'm sure it will be mostly sold off to the highest bidding private sector companies within the next 50 years ;)

When the retirement age was set at 65, very few people lived beyond 70. Nowadays, most people who reach retirement at all will live to at least 80, and quite probably 90.

Simple arithmetic would tell you that we can't afford to pay for 25 years' retirement in the same way we used to pay for five.

I was wondering if the uptake % wise for paying into pensions is higher in the public sector then the private? I've paid into a pension since I was 23 (public sector), it is something that I am very aware of as my father is an electrician is having to try to pay as much into his private pension as he started late and it's not worth much, it will be a massive drop in living standards if he did not do something about it.

I fully expect by the time I get to retirement age (35+ years yet!) it will be moved up to 70. I hope I get to that age and am healthy to be able to enjoy it. The scary thought is that if you have an older partner (even by 10 years) they will be 80 by the time you retire and less likely to be around to enjoy it with you! The average age expectancy in Sheffield in 2006 was 78.5 years. I think the people that bought into property when it was cheap have got the best pension schemes going.

I would not worry about the public secor for too long anyway, I'm sure it will be mostly sold off to the highest bidding private sector companies within the next 50 years ;)

Some very relevent points above.

I myself managed to get on the property ladder when it was cheaper (not sure it was ever "cheap"). My first house cost me £20,000 a smallish three bed semi in a decent area, so you can guess how long ago it was :P that house is now worth £200,000. At the time though I was earning just £6,500. So it wasn't cheap when you take into account earnings and the fact that at the time the maximum mortgage was 3X salary and over no more than 25 years. I'm now on my fourth house because I always thought that property was a safe place to keep your money, and it is even nowadays. Once your home is paid for, I don't think it is too much to ask of the pension to be able to afford to stay in it? even the state pension!!! because big earners have paid big contributions into it.
Yes we are living longer, and yes we should expect the government to be able to pay pensions for 25 years when they used to be for a much shorter period, the increase in life expectancy didn't happen overnight, they have had the statistics each and every year so they can't now say it is a surprise.

Although the goverment has put the age up from 65 to 68 for retirement. Unfortunatly they have not got our health standard up to 68, so l would not worry about it. I retired at 55 for health reasons, Its something that we can do nothing about, whatever the goverment of the day say.

Some very relevent points above.

...Yes we are living longer, and yes we should expect the government to be able to pay pensions for 25 years when they used to be for a much shorter period, the increase in life expectancy didn't happen overnight, they have had the statistics each and every year so they can't now say it is a surprise.

If you want the government to be able to pay improved pensions to even more people for even longer periods (There are considerably more people reaching pensionable age nowadays than there were when the scheme first started and the life expectancy of those pensioners is considerably greater) then you will have to allow the government to take considerably more from your pay to fund those pensions.

Unfortunately, in the UK, the government does not 'ring-fence' the money it takes from people ostensibly to provide them with a pension. - That money goes into the general pot and pensions are classed as general liabilities (actually, they're not even classed as general liabilities - Gordon and his buddy Alistair haven't even included them in the figure they admit to for 'National Debt'... Perhaps the State pension problem will just 'go away' ;).)

If you or I were to start a scam which invited people to pay a tenner a week into a fund and promised them that in 40 years time they could each have £200 a week for ever and we were then to start taking our £200 relying on more and more people joining the fund to keep funds coming in, we would be prosecuted for operating a Ponzi scam. - A chain letter scam.

That's pretty much what the government have done with the pension scheme - except even more of the money has been siphoned off. There is no 'pensions fund', the government diverted the money elsewhere.

UK pensions are amongst the worst in the 'more developed' nations in Europe. I honestly can't see them getting much better, either.

My grandparents' grandparents looked after their children and their parents. Each generation looked after their children and their parents - It seemed to work fairly well. Perhaps we're going to have to revert to that system, because it seems that the government have spent all the money which would've provided pensions.

My grandparents' grandparents looked after their children and their parents. Each generation looked after their children and their parents - It seemed to work fairly well. Perhaps we're going to have to revert to that system, because it seems that the government have spent all the money which would've provided pensions.

I don't think people have the capacity to do that anymore. Traditionally women stayed at home and looked after children, but most work nowadays. After working a 10 hour day I don't fancy looking after my parents and any children if I decided I could afford any :lol: If women stayed at home each year that would be another 4-8K a year not paid in as NI and tax (working on average wage), plus the bennifits they would pay out for someone not working, then the family could get family tax credits as the family income had dropped. Families do not live close anymore, not nipping distance!

We just have to face the fact that we will have to work for longer or encourage mass immigration/ emmigration of old people or persuade people to have more kids if they want to maintain income for the pension as it stands now.

If you want the government to be able to pay improved pensions to even more people for even longer periods (There are considerably more people reaching pensionable age nowadays than there were when the scheme first started and the life expectancy of those pensioners is considerably greater) then you will have to allow the government to take considerably more from your pay to fund those pensions.

Unfortunately, in the UK, the government does not 'ring-fence' the money it takes from people ostensibly to provide them with a pension. - That money goes into the general pot and pensions are classed as general liabilities (actually, they're not even classed as general liabilities - Gordon and his buddy Alistair haven't even included them in the figure they admit to for 'National Debt'... Perhaps the State pension problem will just 'go away' ;).)

If you or I were to start a scam which invited people to pay a tenner a week into a fund and promised them that in 40 years time they could each have £200 a week for ever and we were then to start taking our £200 relying on more and more people joining the fund to keep funds coming in, we would be prosecuted for operating a Ponzi scam. - A chain letter scam.

That's pretty much what the government have done with the pension scheme - except even more of the money has been siphoned off. There is no 'pensions fund', the government diverted the money elsewhere.

UK pensions are amongst the worst in the 'more developed' nations in Europe. I honestly can't see them getting much better, either.

My grandparents' grandparents looked after their children and their parents. Each generation looked after their children and their parents - It seemed to work fairly well. Perhaps we're going to have to revert to that system, because it seems that the government have spent all the money which would've provided pensions.

Great post, yes there are many more people to provide for,,, so there are many more who have paid in !!

I don't think people have the capacity to do that anymore. Traditionally women stayed at home and looked after children, but most work nowadays. After working a 10 hour day I don't fancy looking after my parents and any children if I decided I could afford any :lol: If women stayed at home each year that would be another 4-8K a year not paid in as NI and tax (working on average wage), plus the bennifits they would pay out for someone not working, then the family could get family tax credits as the family income had dropped. Families do not live close anymore, not nipping distance!

We just have to face the fact that we will have to work for longer or encourage mass immigration/ emmigration of old people or persuade people to have more kids if they want to maintain income for the pension as it stands now.

My grandma looked after her mum, she looked after her husband and she looked after me. (My mum got TB just after I was born.)

I grew up in what many nowadays would consider to be a 'quaint and impossible ' world. - I was told by my great grandmother (who didn't speak English and would have laughed at the concept of a 'welfare state'):

"When you earn your first wage packet, divide the bit you get into 3 parts. Use 1 part to live on, save 1 part and - if you want - **** the 3rd part up against the wall."

That was the way people did that in her (non Welfare-State) world.

That's the way I did it, too. I'm not rich and I don't expect the government to keep their promises. - They are, after all, politicians. I know better than to trust them. (I'm trying really hard to be polite here;))

I was born naked (albeit with a half-inch coat of hair:suspect:) I had nothing else.

I may not die naked, but the clothes I'm wearing won't be worth much and since they don't put pockets in shrouds, I won't care too much about what I'm wearing when I die (If you find my wallet, you're welcome to the contents.)

I will, however, make the best provision I may for my grand children.

I've heard lots of people say: 'You should really think very carefully about what you do. What you do and your life are not really important. You should consider how your life will impact that of your grand children.'

Sound advice. I didn't vote nu-Labour the first time around. I certainly didn't vote nu-Labour the second time around (I heard loads of people telling me how much they hated nu-Labour, because the party had let them down, because the party had lied about the war in Iraq and generally because the party were a bunch of dishonest liars.

What happened? - The same people re-elected them.

Q. Why is the country in a mess?
A. Because it's been run by a bunch of incompetent plonkers.

Q. How did that happen?
A. The country was being run by a bunch of competent (but corrupt) plonkers up to 1997. The electorate were dissatisfied with being run by competent plonkers, so they decided (having ignored history throughout the earlier part of the 20th century; history which suggested that the alternative were at least as incompetent and certainly no more honest) to elect the even worse plonkers, who had re-branded themselves under the name 'nu-Labour'.

Q. Didn't they discover that Nu-Labour were incompetent?
A. Of course they did! - Not only did they work that out (the Brits aren't that thick ;)) but they realised (even before the enquiry) that the government had 'signed them up' for two very expensive, unwinnable and possibly (in one case) illegal wars.

Q. So why did they re-elect the lying plonkers?
A. That's a really, really good question. Those who claimed to be anti-labour but who nonetheless voted for labour appear to be unavailable for comment. Those who are available for comment appear to be unwilling to provide coherent comment.

Q. So what happens now?
A. Ask Gordon. The people will no doubt re-elect him.