What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?

I'd rather eat my own foot.

HA HA!!! I would rather lick my own liver!

if i'm in town - i'll be there!

love vegan food - veggie now, but was vegan for 7 years.

maybe i'll be convinced again?

good luck anyway!

i will eat nicks foot though - dont mind eating nicks:hihi:

I've never quite got my head round why vegans don't eat eggs or honey, the chickens lay the eggs anyway and the bees make the honey, it's not like we're forcing them to.

I've never quite got my head round why vegans don't eat eggs or honey, the chickens lay the eggs anyway and the bees make the honey, it's not like we're forcing them to.

But we steal it from them, although the bees steal the pollen from the flowers n my garden- we're as bad as each other

Sounds great :thumbsup: always up for free food

HA HA!!! I would rather lick my own liver!

if your fem ill lick it for you lol

But we steal it from them, although the bees steal the pollen from the flowers n my garden- we're as bad as each other

But it doesn't harm them does it ?

Id love to come but on that day Im snaring and eating rabbits.

I eat vegan food from time to time and the OP is right - it is good for you.

Try eating rice and veg only for a while and you become less of a fat ******* and more just a *******.
Worked for me. :)

Can you give an idea of the fare on offer? I dont want to make the trip to find a bowl of moist sawdust with a dandelion garnish

'But we steal it from them'
Is this for real????

But it doesn't harm them does it ?

No but if someone stole your spittle collection you'd be a bit miffed

No but if someone stole your spittle collection you'd be a bit miffed

When did you last see a miffed bee ?

(I'm guessing last time you missed your medication)

My grandfather was a bee keeper. He didn't steal from them. He exchanged sugar for honey. He always made sure they had enough food. I can understand the argument with dairy products in that cows are overmilked and overbred so much that they suffer from spinal problems but I don't see the argument with freerange eggs. Presumably vegans won't eat brambles or apples because they feed wild animals birds and insects? And the rain forest is being depleted by farmers growing Soya so presumably you don't eat Soya and shouldn't we leave the nuts for the animals and intensive farming of vegetables has already driven many animals to extinction. What are you left with?

When did you last see a miffed bee ?

(I'm guessing last time you missed your medication)

Why do you think they have to gas them to get the honey? The bee's dont want to give it to them- so they are drugged and burgled. If thats your idea of fun then go leave your drink alone for a while in Dempseys

If thats your idea of fun then go leave your drink alone for a while in Dempseys

Will someone blow smoke at me and rob me ?

(actually, having been to Dempseys that sounds pretty accurate)

The bee's dont want to give it to them- so they are drugged and burgled. If thats your idea of fun then go leave your drink alone for a while in Dempseys

That is absolutely hilarious! And all the points made by Duckweed are valid, We could take any argument to the nth degree and have absolutely nothing to eat ... in which case Dumps would be the best place for us!!!

Sorry some bee keepers use smoke not drugs. My grandfather never used smoke. He didn't need to. His bees were very quiet because he made sure they always had enough. Bee keepers who took all the honey leave bees tired and desperate and of course they turn agressive. I'm not a vegetarian but can see why many are and I do not like intensive farming of any kind but I can't see the honey and the eggs argument. We are the dominant species on this planet and whatever food we choose to eat can have enormous impact on the ecology of the planet so if we all chose to eat the same narrow range of foods the intensive farming necessary to sustain this would ruin the planet. Also there are not enough vitamins and minerals in Vegan food to maintain a healthy lifestyle without taking supplements and many people cannot absorb synthetic supplements. I have had friends who were Vegans and had to give up because it was making them ill.

in this day and age its not the fact that we "steal" honey or eggs lol, its the way we do it....were not talking about the odd grandfather with a couple of hives were talking massive almost battery farm style farms that use the animals (bees, chickens) as slave labour
big business

Can you give an idea of the fare on offer? I dont want to make the trip to find a bowl of moist sawdust with a dandelion garnish

Dandlion with sawdust! what wine would you have with that?

What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?

I have tried vegan before so I will leave it for others.
It sounds like a good way for any one who is interested to give it a try.

I once attempted to eat a vegan.
Theyre far too skinny and wiry to get much meat from.

Dandlion with sawdust! what wine would you have with that?
oh, you cant have wine, cos wine is clarified with isinglass, made from the bladders of sturgeon fish, or egg whites, or geletin, all animal in origin. you could perhaps drink cloudy wine.

.........how surreal is this thread??

Im afraid to say that THIS (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/Doppler1/chiken-style.jpg) is a fact of life!

I once attempted to eat a vegan.
Theyre far too skinny and wiry to get much meat from.

Maybe becoming vegan is a good thing with the obesity epidemic in Britain?
although not very good for the Cannibalism eaters I guess, best enjoy it while it lasts.

Maybe becoming vegan is a good thing with the obesity epidemic in Britain?
No way!
Waking up each morning knowing the best thing there was to eat is a small pile of sawdust and a twig would kill any human being with taste buds!

If god didnt intend us to eat animals he wouldnt have made `em out of meat.

mmmmmmmmm FOOD. Not bothered what sort it is

The global ecosystem is powered by billions of creatures and organisms eating each other and their by-products, I don't see why us humans should be any different ..we're animals too and so I guess anything we do, no matter what it is, must be natural animal behaviour right?

Still, having said that, there is a lot of excellent vegan and veggie food out there so feel free to eat it ...leaves more steak for me and my clogged arteries to enjoy!

:P

What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?


Don't care what the food is called or the ethics of it, well actually do consider the ethics and the air miles, but don't care for labels. As long as it dosen't involve oysters, raw tomato or soggy type food, I am happy to give it a go. Is that near the blood bank or somewhere close to the big church on West Street?

Meeting House is between Blood bank and Cathedral.

oh, you cant have wine, cos wine is clarified with isinglass, made from the bladders of sturgeon fish, or egg whites, or geletin, all animal in origin. you could perhaps drink cloudy wine.

.........how surreal is this thread??
There's plenty of vegan wine, increasingly info as to whether it's vege or vegan safe is on the back label, the Co-op & tesco both do so on quite a lot of their own brand wine.

I'll be there ... will they be giving veggie recipes out? ... I PERSONALLY LOVE A STEAK BUT MY SONS A VEGGIE

oops, sorry for shoutin, locken my caps:hihi:

If it's like any vege/vegan event I've ever been to their be recipies and crazy leaflets about the evils of just about all the things you like to eat a plenty.

so if we all chose to eat the same narrow range of foods the intensive farming necessary to sustain this would ruin the planet.

You mean like meat farming does now? Growing crops to feed to animals and then feeding the animals to humans is much more of a burden on the earth's resources than feeding humans directly with crops and avoiding such inefficient conversion of energy.

Large-scale animal production wastes resources such as the water consumed by the animals over their lifetimes, land for crop-growing, land cleared for grazing, the crops themselves (converting 34% of the world's grain into animal manure instead of just eating the crops? Efficient?), then there's the water pollution caused by run-off of said manure from slurry heaps which affects plants and creatures living in rivers, and the fact that farm animals are responsible for 1/3 of the world's methane production, a gas which is 10 times worse than C02 in terms of global warming.

It has now been calculated that changing to a vegan or vegetarian diet reduces a person's C02 footprint more than by switching to a hybrid car. (Source: http://www.worldveganday.org/, click on the link to 'Eating the Earth')

If anyone's interested in the facts:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-58013.html
http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-30610-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/sc1.html (note the hamburger figures)
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/environment/

And anyway - "narrow range of foods"?? Not in my kitchen :-)

Also there are not enough vitamins and minerals in Vegan food to maintain a healthy lifestyle without taking supplements and many people cannot absorb synthetic supplements.

The only vitamin, mineral or any other necessary nutrient that is not provided by a vegan diet is vitamin B12, which produced by bacteria and can be obtained through fortified foods.

I have had friends who were Vegans and had to give up because it was making them ill.

That doesn't make a vegan diet unhealthy, it just means that they probably just didn't learn enough about nutrition. There's a difference between adopting a vegan diet and just stopping eating animal products and not replacing the nutrients with the right kind of plant foods. Either that or they couldn't be bothered to stick with it any more but didn't feel like admitting it.

But anyway, back to the original question - nice one, hope it goes well! Btw, I was most impressed with the leaflet I got through my door today about the event :-)

I've never quite got my head round why vegans don't eat eggs or honey, the chickens lay the eggs anyway and the bees make the honey, it's not like we're forcing them to.

The thing about eggs is that egg-laying chickens are generally kept in poor conditions - not enough space to stretch their wings or carry out natural behaviour, get debeaked so they can't attack other chickens when they get frustrated due to their conditions - and they're only kept for about a year, at the end of which they're worn out due to the rate at which they produce eggs that they can no longer produce enough eggs to be considered profitable, so they're then slaughtered and put in low quality meat products like pies, pet food and so on. Their natural life span would be around 7 years.

Also there's the problem that when egg-laying chickens are bred, you get around the same number of male chicks being hatched as females, and as the male chicks are useless to the industry they get either gassed or thrown in a mincer (still alive) at one day old. They can't use them for meat as they're the wrong breeds - chickens bred for meat are selectively bred to grow as fast as possible and egg-layers don't grow at the same rate, so it's not profitable enough keep them for meat.

More info: http://www.ciwf.org.uk/campaigns/primary_campaigns/egg-laying.html

Also with eggs, hens only keep laying them if they are removed. They may lay a few eggs per season but not one every day for the best part of a year. It's not natural.

I have read that a lot of bees are killed during the collection of honey.

That doesn't make a vegan diet unhealthy, it just means that they probably just didn't learn enough about nutrition. There's a difference between adopting a vegan diet and just stopping eating animal products and not replacing the nutrients with the right kind of plant foods. Either that or they couldn't be bothered to stick with it any more but didn't feel like admitting it.
The fact remains though that a strict vegan diet is not an easy one to sustain and make healthy particularly not for growing children and it is much, much more difficult to have a balanced vegan diet than it is a balanced meat eating or even vegetarian one.

So, if we just eat the crops and don't eat the animals, there's no reason for the animals to be alive is there?

SO they'd be killed, because there's no point in keeping them alive, as this would cost us money in cereals, which we'd want to be eating...

So do we just kill all the animals and not eat them?

We can't set them free as they'd either 1.die or 2.breed too much and become vermin.


If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct, or never have been bred.

Sure people have their own lifestyle choices to make and i'm all for it, thats great, nock yourself out with celery n stuff. What really gets my goat is those people who then push their 'beliefs' onto animals by trying to make their 'pet' dog / cat vegan!! :lol: so much for allowing the animals to live naturally :rolleyes:


I remember one of my ex's was a raging 'Vegan' until I started pointing out his beer had fish in it, etc..he used to get so angry :lol:

Nothing like an angry stick thin 'vegan' to make you realise how bizarre humans really are.

So, if we just eat the crops and don't eat the animals, there's no reason for the animals to be alive is there?

SO they'd be killed, because there's no point in keeping them alive, as this would cost us money in cereals, which we'd want to be eating...

So do we just kill all the animals and not eat them?

We can't set them free as they'd either 1.die or 2.breed too much and become vermin.


If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct, or never have been bred.
What nonsense, we have only domesticated a tiny proportion of the worlds species and we haven’t set out to exterminate all those we don’t eat, why on earth would we?

Hmmm, this talk of 'stick thin' vegans and 'weedy' vegans and vegetarians amuses me greatly!. All I care about is the fact that these leaflets and this publicity is creating debate and awareness amongst the general public, please come and sample the food, and see that there are no malnourised people wandering around! :) .

Hmm, free food

BTW: all those arguing about honey, if you think about it honey is the only food that an animal OR plant hasn't died for. The nectar is made by plants for the bees (to con them into pollinating other plants) and the bees make the honey for us (well themselves ok)

Hmmm, this talk of 'stick thin' vegans and 'weedy' vegans and vegetarians amuses me greatly!. All I care about is the fact that these leaflets and this publicity is creating debate and awareness amongst the general public, please come and sample the food, and see that there are no malnourised people wandering around! :) .

Well I'm coming, I'm a vegan and I certainly ain't malnourished! we can still eat chocolate, biscuits and other goodies you know, not all of them have bits of dead animals in.:)

What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?

is there a meat section?? if so im there!!! ha

But have you noticed all the "vagan" chocolate and biscuit type things cost a fortune compared to ordinary choc's..etc.

And my friend is a vagan,made a cup of tea,and then tried there soya milk in it...Tasted bloody horrid..binned the tea..never again.!!

I once tried being a veggy for 6 months..got fed up of rice, brown rice, boiled rice. fried rice..you get the picture.!!

So went and sucummed to a bacon sarnie....yum yum.....

jt

we're animals too and so I guess anything we do, no matter what it is, must be natural animal behaviour right?
Sure, but for one thing 'natural' isn't the same as 'good', and for another, one of the special things about humans is that we're sufficiently self-aware to be able to transcend our biological nature, up to a point. Seems to me that if you're not bothered about how much suffering is caused by how your food is produced, you're on the same moral level (when it comes to food) as a lion or a shark.

What nonsense, we have only domesticated a tiny proportion of the worlds species and we haven’t set out to exterminate all those we don’t eat, why on earth would we?

Do you know how many breeds of animal wouldn't have ever existed if we didn't use them?

A child can turn round and sputter 'what nonsense' but without giving any factual information, it really has no effect :)

So, let us know what you would plan to do with the millions of suddenly unused and unwanted animals if we all stopped eating any animal product?

It's slightly harder answering the 'living in the real world' questions isn't it.

But have you noticed all the "vagan" chocolate and biscuit type things cost a fortune compared to ordinary choc's..etc.

And my friend is a vagan,made a cup of tea,and then tried there soya milk in it...Tasted bloody horrid..binned the tea..never again.!!



Soya milk from aldi at 50p - and alot of dark chocolate is vegan aswell thats not expensive :P

Do you know how many breeds of animal wouldn't have ever existed if we didn't use them?
You are trying to shift the goalposts in your previous post you said:

‘If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct’

Now you say ‘breeds’ do you not understand that a ‘breed’ and a ‘species’ a very different things?

A child can turn round and sputter 'what nonsense' but without giving any factual information, it really has no effect :)
I did give factual information I pointed out that “we have only domesticated a tiny proportion of the worlds species and we haven’t set out to exterminate all those we don’t eat” why don’t you try rebutting those points rather than pretending I didn’t make them.

So, let us know what you would plan to do with the millions of suddenly unused and unwanted animals if we all stopped eating any animal product?
Well first of all it’s rather unlikely that the whole of humanity would stop eating animals over night. If that were to happen though the choice would be to either kill animals still in the farming system or continue to feed them and let them die of old age.

Either way because we would no longer be force breeding animals and putting them into the farming system the amount of suffering would soon fall and the problem woud resolve itself within a generation.

It's slightly harder answering the 'living in the real world' questions isn't it.
Until you can back up you absurd claim that:

“If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct”

any accusations you make that other posters aren’t 'living in the real world' can hardly be taken seriously.

Wow any mention of "vegan" on SF brings out the idiots and the ill informed, doesn't it.

As an aside, Sheffield Vegan Society has recently disbanded. Things have moved forward so much in the 18 years it existed that there is no longer any need for a vegan "support group", anyone who wants to go vegan today can easily look up the facts (beansforyou, nick2, duckweed - take note), find some recipes, talk to people on vegan forums, and buy soya milk in Aldi - cheers f_g!

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/index.php

My grandfather was a bee keeper. He didn't steal from them. He exchanged sugar for honey. He always made sure they had enough food. I can understand the argument with dairy products in that cows are overmilked and overbred so much that they suffer from spinal problems but I don't see the argument with freerange eggs. Presumably vegans won't eat brambles or apples because they feed wild animals birds and insects? And the rain forest is being depleted by farmers growing Soya so presumably you don't eat Soya and shouldn't we leave the nuts for the animals and intensive farming of vegetables has already driven many animals to extinction. What are you left with?

er...is it 42?

You are trying to shift the goalposts in your previous post you said:

‘If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct’

Now you say ‘breeds’ do you not understand that a ‘breed’ and a ‘species’ a very different things?


I did give factual information I pointed out that “we have only domesticated a tiny proportion of the worlds species and we haven’t set out to exterminate all those we don’t eat” why don’t you try rebutting those points rather than pretending I didn’t make them.




If your going to try and create an argument - and win, try to ensure you read the full opposing statement, and don't just quote the bits that make you sound right, because everyone else can read what has been put :)

My original statement was:
If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct, or never have been bred.

So yes, I do know the difference, just incase the above didn't clarify that enough for you :)

Going back to my original question, which is actually the interesting bit, Surely if your going to allow all these animals, which are our responsibility because we have manipulated their breeding patterns for our own ends - if we're going to just kill them off because we can't use them anymore or leaving them to die naturally, surely thats a total waste of resources, when some parts of the world are starving to death each day?

I'm all for people being aware of the choices they can make, and support anyone living by those choices, but I also have the choice, and don't need anyone else trying to persuade me to follow theirs, be it diet, religion, politics etc.

and buy soya milk in Aldi - cheers f_g!



And Lidl - they have chocolate aswell, problem is if i buy that its all gone in one go - taste just as good as Frijj (and i sometimes have a bottle of that but am sure I can feel bacteria growing in my mouth - bit of a phobia of milk you could say!

I was born onto this planet in this part of it known as the UK. Didn’t ask to be, I had no choice. I have to eat, so I’ll eat what is available here. I may avoid certain things that I think are morally wrong and I might not like the idea of animals being killed but I’ll eat them if they are and if they taste nice.
Im wise enough to know that theres no point trying to reduce my ‘carbon footprint’ because billions in China & India etc are not about to reduce their rapidly enlarging print so it would have no effect. It might make me feel good about myself and a little superior to another who doesn’t care but it would just be shooting myself in the foot.

Wow any mention of "vegan" on SF brings out the idiots and the ill informed, doesn't it.

As an aside, Sheffield Vegan Society has recently disbanded. Things have moved forward so much in the 18 years it existed that there is no longer any need for a vegan "support group", anyone who wants to go vegan today can easily look up the facts (beansforyou, nick2, duckweed - take note), find some recipes, talk to people on vegan forums, and buy soya milk in Aldi - cheers f_g!

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/index.php

With such a positive educational outlook towards people who you 'think' don't know as much as you, it's hardly surprising your 'support' group has had to close :lol:

Did you just call anyone who didn't agree with you an Idiot?

With such a positive educational outlook towards people who you 'think' don't know as much as you, it's hardly surprising your 'support' group has had to close :lol:

Did you just call anyone who didn't agree with you an Idiot?

I must admit having read this thread just now, alot of the views from meat eaters about the nutritional and environmental impact of a vegan diet do seem to be very ill informed.

I'm not vegan, but vegetarian so I've done alot of reading around the subject over the years and it is the case that the meat industry is very detrimental to the planet.

beansforyou you are surely either trolling or playing devil's advocate because obviously the world won't be going vegan overnight so there will never be huge numbers of ex-farm animals wandering about, just a decreace in their numbers as farmers breed less over the years. Do you have any serious points?

Yes, maybe I am being Devils Advocate, is that frowned upon?

I have been vegetarian for many years in the past, and as already stated have lived with vegans, so I'm not some pie-munching ignorant, i'm simply someone asking theoretical questions, and just getting insults back when they can't be answered, which I feel is a shame, as I like a good debate as much as anyone else.

I didn't start any mud slinging, I simply asked a few questions which interest me. if you can't answer them, just dont' reply to my post?

So no, the world won't turn vegan overnight, so are you expecting the farmers to just slow down manufacture as meat eating loses favour?

Again, just stating 'your ill informed' doesn't actually tell me your opinions or ideas does it?

I KNEW this thread would spark such a "Whats the point of being vegan?" argument. Personally I think vegan food is uber yummy, especially good for you and morally sound.
The meat industry has an awful effect on the planet and I think it wouldn't harm anyone if they just ate a little less meat.
If going veggie or vegan just isn't your thing, then maybe just cutting out all the processed meat crap thats a quid from Jack Fulton and instead invest in a nice plump, completely organic and free-range chicken from a local farmer maybe once a week and find out how to make it last longer than just one meal. It may be expensive, but by making it last throughout the week you'll realise how much money one is saving as well as being morally and ethically sound.
Oh, and I shall try my very best to be there for some free eats!

I was born onto this planet in this part of it known as the UK. Didn’t ask to be, I had no choice. I have to eat, so I’ll eat what is available here. I may avoid certain things that I think are morally wrong and I might not like the idea of animals being killed but I’ll eat them if they are and if they taste nice.
Im wise enough to know that theres no point trying to reduce my ‘carbon footprint’ because billions in China & India etc are not about to reduce their rapidly enlarging print so it would have no effect. It might make me feel good about myself and a little superior to another who doesn’t care but it would just be shooting myself in the foot.

You do have to eat...but is the only thing available in this country non-vegetarian stuff? Strange that, 'cos if it was, how would I still be alive? I'd have wasted away to nothing...mind you, that doesn't sound too bad lol, that malnutritioned veggie argument makes me laugh 'cos I don't eat meat but I'm a healthy size 14:D

You say you are "wise enough" to know that reducing your carbon footprint would make no difference? What kind of balls is that? Thats exactly the attitude so many people adopt and that exact reason why it wouldn't make that much of a difference, because everyone thinks "if so and so's not going to do it, then why should I?"...sheep or what? If everyone else decided to to throw themselves off of the Empire State Building, would you folow suit? :rolleyes:

Yes, maybe I am being Devils Advocate, is that frowned upon?

Of course not, but you came across as serious. Sorry if i offended you.

I have been vegetarian for many years in the past, and as already stated have lived with vegans, so I'm not some pie-munching ignorant, i'm simply someone asking theoretical questions, and just getting insults back when they can't be answered, which I feel is a shame, as I like a good debate as much as anyone else.

I didn't start any mud slinging, I simply asked a few questions which interest me. if you can't answer them, just dont' reply to my post?

The level of debate on here is so low that i wouldn't want to dignify most questions with an answer. For instance connecting soya growing in the Amazon with vegans being bad because they eat soya! It's as intelligent as equating pediatricians and pedophiles.

(The soya is been grown for animal feed to make meat!)


So no, the world won't turn vegan overnight, so are you expecting the farmers to just slow down manufacture as meat eating loses favour?


Yes, it's pure economics. Because farm animals lead such short lives the market can react quickly.

If god didn't mean for us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?

You say you are "wise enough" to know that reducing your carbon footprint would make no difference? What kind of balls is that? Thats exactly the attitude so many people adopt and that exact reason why it wouldn't make that much of a difference, because everyone thinks "if so and so's not going to do it, then why should I?"...sheep or what? If everyone else decided to to throw themselves off of the Empire State Building, would you folow suit? :rolleyes:

That old jump off a cliff line!! Are you a school teacher by any chance?

You want everyone to follow the same path (like sheep) then accuse me of being, er, a sheep- for not following like everyone else.. Its a fact that China and India wont stop their industrial progress- and why should they? They want what we have. WHether the planet can give it to them without suffering is questionable, but that wont stop them from trying. And one day they'll look back and see the mess they have created but it will be too late. Kind of like where we are now - because they wont want to give up what they have. Its not human nature

If god didn't mean for us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?

Too slow: http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1733141&postcount=28

He made us out of meat too so can I have a slice off your rump?

Great! I'm up for this, I'll mention it to my friend too.

That old jump off a cliff line!! Are you a school teacher by any chance?

You want everyone to follow the same path (like sheep) then accuse me of being, er, a sheep- for not following like everyone else.. Its a fact that China and India wont stop their industrial progress- and why should they? They want what we have. WHether the planet can give it to them without suffering is questionable, but that wont stop them from trying. And one day they'll look back and see the mess they have created but it will be too late. Kind of like where we are now - because they wont want to give up what they have. Its not human nature

Unfortunately it's a line that can be applied to thousands of situations, I'm not a teacher though, sorry to disappoint, Kids aren't my thing, animals are;)

The point is, maybe they do want what we have, and why is it fair that we have what they don't have, however, if everyone in the UK and US made small changes it WOULD make a difference, but only if everyone did so, but lots of selfish people don't want to put themselves out even a little for the good of the planet or animals.

I am vegetarian plainly because I disagree, not only with the practice of taking away life for a "pleasure" which only lasts the 3 mins it takes to eat a chicken breast anyway, but for the WAY meat is produced. It doesn't particularly tae much effort to find veggie alternatives to things, but some people are just a little afraid of change:)

My grandfather was a bee keeper. He didn't steal from them. He exchanged sugar for honey. He always made sure they had enough food. I can understand the argument with dairy products in that cows are overmilked and overbred so much that they suffer from spinal problems but I don't see the argument with freerange eggs. Presumably vegans won't eat brambles or apples because they feed wild animals birds and insects? And the rain forest is being depleted by farmers growing Soya so presumably you don't eat Soya and shouldn't we leave the nuts for the animals and intensive farming of vegetables has already driven many animals to extinction. What are you left with?

The fact is that rain forrests are cut down for soya to feed animals to be reared for meat. If humans ate that soya directly and did not feed it to the animals we would feed the world 3 times over. The fact that meat production is increasing as the world popultation increases means that were running out of space to grow food....using precious land to raise animals just to eat them is wasteful, if the animals hadn't been bred for food and we ate the soya directly, we would need much less land, therefore a vegan causes much less environmental damage than a meat eater would.

I've never quite got my head round why vegans don't eat eggs or honey, the chickens lay the eggs anyway and the bees make the honey, it's not like we're forcing them to.

Hardly any of the eggs and honey are produced in a way which is 'typical' of a farmyard setting. Eggs: The male Chicks are killed instantly. The Hens are de-beaked with a hot blade to stop them pecking at themselves out of boredom.The Hens are placed into extremely cramped conditions, never let out of their cages,pumped with drugs so that they lay eggs more often and are killed after a very short lifespan becasue their body cannot take the strain of laying so many eggs...they are no use to the farmer any longer except for low grade meat. The hen is therefore looked at as an economic benefit and not an individual as she truly is. The hen cannot fulfil any of her instincts, such as dust bathing. Cram as many birds into a tiny space, make her lay as many eggs as possible and kill her for meat. That's basically the extent of it.

I have tried vegan before so I will leave it for others.
It sounds like a good way for any one who is interested to give it a try.

We are going to have a few chef's making amazing cakes, pies, muffins, salads, burgers, casseroles, cakes, biscuits, sosage rolls etc....I think you should all come along before judging what vegan food is like, then you can make an informed decision. If you've tried vegan food before I suggest you still come along and try the food becasue the stuff you may have had before would not be as good!

oh, you cant have wine, cos wine is clarified with isinglass, made from the bladders of sturgeon fish, or egg whites, or geletin, all animal in origin. you could perhaps drink cloudy wine.

.........how surreal is this thread??

Actually there are a few vegan wines.....

No way!
Waking up each morning knowing the best thing there was to eat is a small pile of sawdust and a twig would kill any human being with taste buds!

If god didnt intend us to eat animals he wouldnt have made `em out of meat.

There most certainly will not be saw dust on the menu, I would never eat anything tastless or bland. The food will be really good, come and try it before judging!

Yeah I might come down to this tho I wont eat anything with onions in so may not be worth it

There most certainly will not be saw dust on the menu, I would never eat anything tastless or bland. The food will be really good, come and try it before judging!

Thought it was a vegan night? :hihi:

Yeah I might come down to this tho I wont eat anything with onions in so may not be worth it

There will definitley be stuff without onions in.

There most certainly will not be saw dust on the menu, I would never eat anything tastless or bland. The food will be really good, come and try it before judging!
Id like to try it, but on the whole, I rather like at least a small part of my meal to once have been the proud owner of lungs/gills or at least a nostril of some sort. I KNOW that we descended from omnivores and theres no way am I going to betray my monkey ancestors!

Id like to try it, but on the whole, I rather like at least a small part of my meal to once have been the proud owner of lungs/gills or at least a nostril of some sort. I KNOW that we descended from omnivores and theres no way am I going to betray my monkey ancestors!

Do you not think that we have evolved beyond that, the fasct that we have the choice to see beyond that and be compassionate creaures who do not harm others and subsiquently the environment is surely a rational evolution. The way meat and dairy products are produced today is not natural or kind, it's extremely cruel and environmentially damaging, but also bad for your health. The animals don't get a chance to excersie as they would normally, therefore the meat is extremely fatty ands full of cholesterol, and can clogg up arteries causing heart disease etc. When you are ingesting all the antibiotics and other drugs these animals have been forcefed to keep them healthy in such unclean, dirty, disease ridden conditions. That's not natural even if you claim meat eating is.

The fact is, you can get all the nutrients you need from a plant based diet, thus lowering your cholesterol intake thus improving health, as well as reducing the environmental impact that factory farming hgas on the environment, it feed more people than a meat based-diet does: therefore possibly reducing world hunger, and it is not cruel to animals.

The animals don't get a chance to excersie as they would normally, therefore the meat is extremely fatty ands full of cholesterol, and can clogg up arteries causing heart disease etc. When you are ingesting all the antibiotics and other drugs these animals have been forcefed to keep them healthy in such unclean, dirty, disease ridden conditions. That's not natural even if you claim meat eating is.

If eating meat is so unhealthy, why does my doctor say that as an anaemic I should regularly eat red meat? And if being a vegan is that healthy, why do they always look so pale and ill?

And if being a vegan is that healthy, why do they always look so pale and ill?

They dont.

We cant evolve beyond an omnivorous diet. We can THINK that we have, we can convince our minds that we have, the our bodies are STILL the same as they were when we were scurrying over the veldt scavenging for dead animals. We started out as omnivores, and we`ll end as omnivores.
If it quacks like a duck, if it looks like a duck then ...Ill probably eat it, but you know what I mean.

We cant evolve beyond an omnivorous diet. We can THINK that we have, we can convince our minds that we have, the our bodies are STILL the same as they were when we were scurrying over the veldt scavenging for dead animals. We started out as omnivores, and we`ll end as omnivores.

You scavenge for dead animals all you want. I'll let you know in 50 years' time when I'm still not dead yet through lack of animal flesh.

You scavenge for dead animals all you want. I'll let you know in 50 years' time when I'm still not dead yet through lack of animal flesh.
But will the 50 years appear to stretch for 500? Id rather live fast, eat good food and die happy.

Having said that, Im 45 and ive eaten meat all my life, tons of it and Im healthy as hell, and enjoying my grub.

There will definitley be stuff without onions in.

Ooooh! thanks:)

As a point of interest...

Up until about 50 years ago, meat was hard to come by for the average person and the life spans were form anything from 30 in the middle ages up to about 60 in the 40s and 50s.
Life spans now are far longer and meat is readily available. could these two facts be connected?

ive never met a healthy looking vegan. i used to work with a vegan girl who looked like she was in urgent need some animal goodness. surely a pork sandwich, half a pound of butter washed down with a gallon of milk would have done the trick.

The point is, maybe they do want what we have, and why is it fair that we have what they don't have, however, if everyone in the UK and US made small changes it WOULD make a difference, but only if everyone did so,


I am vegetarian plainly because I disagree, not only with the practice of taking away life for a "pleasure" which only lasts the 3 mins it takes to eat a chicken breast anyway, but for the WAY meat is produced. It doesn't particularly tae much effort to find veggie alternatives to things, but some people are just a little afraid of change:) (although I love a bacon sandwich (only occasionally)

Be realistic though - we cant influence the US. And just the UK cant make a difference.


I dont like the ways its produced either- i agree with you there. When I can afford it I get free range / organic / local small producer etc. But there is no vege alternative to meat in terms of the tasty taste- yes there is vege alternatives which would satisfy the hunger. I enjoy a quorn sausage you know :)

Erm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMpHF2a-IJY

ive never met a healthy looking vegan. i used to work with a vegan girl who looked like she was in urgent need some animal goodness. surely a pork sandwich, half a pound of butter washed down with a gallon of milk would have done the trick.

SOunds like she needed a pork injection, and fast.

SOunds like she needed a pork injection, and fast.

she was very popular with the lads at work.

I'd rather live fast, eat good food and die happy.

Same here :)

As a point of interest...

Up until about 50 years ago, meat was hard to come by for the average person and the life spans were form anything from 30 in the middle ages up to about 60 in the 40s and 50s.
Life spans now are far longer and meat is readily available. could these two facts be connected?

Also since milk and dairy is more easily available heart attacks have increased - i do have dairy but i also think its bad for us to have lots of.

Same here :)
But wouldnt it be nice to know that some animal has gladly sacrified itself on the alter of carnivorism to make your food better? The thought that the meal Im eating once squeaked or squealed or dropped its guts makes any meal more... satisfying...

Then of course, you have to think of future evolution for our species. Eating meat protein allowed our brains to grow thus turning us from ape to human, if we go BACK to a veggy diet, then theres a good chance that in a million years or so we`ll be back tree swinging. Evolution works both ways...

Also since milk and dairy is more easily available heart attacks have increased - i do have dairy but i also think its bad for us to have lots of.
Yeah dairy IS bad in high amounts. I dont have much but I DO eat tons of meat.

Yeah dairy IS bad in high amounts. I dont have much but I DO eat tons of meat.

At the end of the day its made for calfs and obviously they fatten up well!

At the end of the day its made for calfs and obviously they fatten up well!

Come to think of it, it IS a bit odd isnt it? Drinking something thats meant to pack muscle and fat onto an animal thats supposed to weigh at least half a ton.

As a point of interest...

Up until about 50 years ago, meat was hard to come by for the average person and the life spans were form anything from 30 in the middle ages up to about 60 in the 40s and 50s.
Life spans now are far longer and meat is readily available. could these two facts be connected?

Probably not, it's the advances in cleanliness/madicine/antibiotics and clean drinking water that's to thank for this.

Probably not, it's the advances in cleanliness/madicine/antibiotics and clean drinking water that's to thank for this.
Then of course we can lead onto the animal testing thing... all of the above have been tested on animals at one point or another.

Come to think of it, it IS a bit odd isnt it? Drinking something thats meant to pack muscle and fat onto an animal thats supposed to weigh at least half a ton.

Fancy a forum trip sucking cows udders :hihi:

Fancy a forum trip sucking cows udders :hihi:
Im game if theres goats involved! :D

double post

I'm not vegan.
I'm not vegetarian.

I'm an omnivore.

However, I'm an open minded omnivore who weighs up the balance of good and bad in every food I eat. I don't eat factory farmed stuff. I intend on keeping my own chickens and, yes, eating their eggs. I don't like honey enough to 'steal it' from bees, I buy local foods rather than beans, pulses, spices, and rice with massive food mile amounts on.

Food miles - is this another topic to start? A lot of vegan foods travel a hell of a long way before they get to the vegan - bad for carbon footprint.

I eat meat, and I'm happy with that. If I needed to farm my own animals to carry on eating meat, I would do. When I was vegetarian (tried it for four years before health reasons made me stop) I was severely anaemic. No matter how much broccoli I ate, and how much vitamic C I consumed to help me absorb the iron, I still had to take iron tablets. Being a vegan would probably knock me out.

However... I can cook vegan recipes, I can cook vegetarian recipes, and I can cook for pretty much every food allergy under the sun. I have my views, everyone else has theirs - lovely.

Wouldn't mind having a few more vegan reseeps (cue Fat Lady voice) under my belt, so to speak, but don't really fancy being pamphleted within an inch of my life. If any vegans reading this have a favourite recipe, please PM me with it as I am too lazy to keep reading through such a fast-moving thread.

If you're an adventurous ominvore, pretty much all the recipes on the Vegan Family House - http://www.veganfamily.co.uk/ are good and tasty.


p.s. some vegan recipes are dead good when you're having a bit of a skint month cos they save you money on meat. :)

Edited to add: My doctor is vegan! He seems remarkably skinny and pale, but that could be how he would be, whatever he ate. He seems relatively healthy though, and if anyone would know the health effects of veganism, he would. Each to his (or her) own.

But wouldnt it be nice to know that some animal has gladly sacrified itself on the alter of carnivorism to make your food better? The thought that the meal Im eating once squeaked or squealed or dropped its guts makes any meal more... satisfying...

You'd probably enjoy watching this then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-513747926833909134

Yum yum...

Ooh are we starting with the emotional videos already? it's only on page 6!

Here's one for you Jabber, I know you like em plump n fluffy :thumbsup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfw9i30GYEE

Here's an excellent, very readable article titled "What If...We All Became Vegan?". It's not preachy and it includes good references.

http://earth-blog.bravejournal.com/entry/17001

But wouldnt it be nice to know that some animal has gladly sacrified itself on the alter of carnivorism to make your food better? The thought that the meal Im eating once squeaked or squealed or dropped its guts makes any meal more... satisfying...

Then of course, you have to think of future evolution for our species. Eating meat protein allowed our brains to grow thus turning us from ape to human, if we go BACK to a veggy diet, then theres a good chance that in a million years or so we`ll be back tree swinging. Evolution works both ways...

You could never prove that kind of thing. Besides, Evolution does not work in reverse....except if it were benficial.

Then of course we can lead onto the animal testing thing... all of the above have been tested on animals at one point or another.

We won't get into the animal testing debate here. This is about food.

We won't get into the animal testing debate here. This is about food.
Good.
This is an interesting thread dont you think? Im enjoying it AND actually learning a thing or two.

You could never prove that kind of thing. Besides, Evolution does not work in reverse....except if it were benficial.
Evolution can and does sometimes work in reverse. However, like animal testing, its for another thread.

What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?
I don't care if they are giving it away I'm not eating it, unless it comes with a nice sirloin?

Sure, but for one thing 'natural' isn't the same as 'good', and for another, one of the special things about humans is that we're sufficiently self-aware to be able to transcend our biological nature, up to a point. Seems to me that if you're not bothered about how much suffering is caused by how your food is produced, you're on the same moral level (when it comes to food) as a lion or a shark.
Sounds about right to me...........aparently people taste a lot like pork! my local butcher sticks to more conventional meat products though

If your going to try and create an argument - and win, try to ensure you read the full opposing statement, and don't just quote the bits that make you sound right, because everyone else can read what has been put :)

My original statement was:

If it wasn't for man being a carnivore most of the species alive today would be extinct, or never have been bred.

So yes, I do know the difference, just incase the above didn't clarify that enough for you :)
How about you back up that absurd statement then, why on earth would 'most species alive today be extinct' if we weren't omnivores (rather than carnivores as you bizzarely seem to think we are)?

Going back to my original question, which is actually the interesting bit, Surely if your going to allow all these animals, which are our responsibility because we have manipulated their breeding patterns for our own ends - if we're going to just kill them off because we can't use them anymore or leaving them to die naturally, surely thats a total waste of resources, when some parts of the world are starving to death each day?
We already produce more than enough food to feed the world and could produce far more if so much land wasn’t wasted providing fodder for the incredibly inefficient meat industry.

I'm all for people being aware of the choices they can make, and support anyone living by those choices, but I also have the choice, and don't need anyone else trying to persuade me to follow theirs, be it diet, religion, politics etc.
Who’s trying to persuade you? I was simply responding to absurd and grossly factually incorrect arguments that you made. Arguments which you have as yet completely failed to either backup or concede.

I don't care if they are giving it away I'm not eating it, unless it comes with a nice sirloin?
So you never eat cakes, biscuits, curry, soup... or anthing other than sirloin?

I'd come, but I'm in Manchester that day. I'd like to live cruelty free, but I'd be useless at it.

Be realistic though - we cant influence the US. And just the UK cant make a difference.


I dont like the ways its produced either- i agree with you there. When I can afford it I get free range / organic / local small producer etc. But there is no vege alternative to meat in terms of the tasty taste- yes there is vege alternatives which would satisfy the hunger. I enjoy a quorn sausage you know :)

It's sad that it's not realisic though! I really wish it was, and that there was some way of getting people to care. :(

The way most meat is produced makes me sick. However, even if all animals were treated nicely before they were slaughtered, I would still be veggie because I don't believe we have the right to take away life for our own pleasure, because it is for pleasure and is not a necessity in this country, where there are feasible alternatives.:)

It's sad that it's not realisic though! I really wish it was, and that there was some way of getting people to care. :(

The way most meat is produced makes me sick. However, even if all animals were treated nicely before they were slaughtered, I would still be veggie because I don't believe we have the right to take away life for our own pleasure, because it is for pleasure and is not a necessity in this country, where there are feasible alternatives.:)

INDEED! even though meat is tasty, we have no right to take away an animals life just because we can and becasue it happens to be tasty!

Bear in mind though that meat has vital combinations of amino acids that plants simply cant reproduce without mixing legumes in wierd combinations. A lump of meat can replace a load of vegetable matter in many cases.

Bear in mind though that meat has vital combinations of amino acids that plants simply cant reproduce without mixing legumes in wierd combinations. A lump of meat can replace a load of vegetable matter in many cases.

Like beans on toast, for example? Rice and lentils? Tortillila wraps and beans? Or just some soya products, for those hardcore enough to cope with tofu :D

You'd probably enjoy watching this then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-513747926833909134

Yum yum...
Im drooling I tell ya! Drooling!

Like beans on toast, for example? Rice and lentils? Tortillila wraps and beans? Or just some soya products, for those hardcore enough to cope with tofu :D
BUT are they a good mix of aminos? I once knew a vegan bodybuilder, and a vegetarian one. The veggie one used to be vegan but eventually had to start drinking milk and eating liver just to keep a decent level of muscle mass, before he did that, he was working hard and getting no where. The Vegan worked hard and never allowed himself to take any kind of animal protein, relying on legume mixes etc., for his amino acids.
He got nowhere, he looked like a whippet and his poundages steadily dropped until he was lifting less than new starters.
Im no expert in mixing aminos, my knowledge is solely from these two bodybuilders but that HAS to say something about animal and vegetable protein.

BUT are they a good mix of aminos?

Yes, as far as I know. Here's one explanation for anyone who's interested: http://www.foodsforlife.org.uk/nutrition/vegetarian-vegan-nutrition.html


I once knew a vegan bodybuilder, and a vegetarian one. The veggie one used to be vegan but eventually had to start drinking milk and eating liver just to keep a decent level of muscle mass, before he did that, he was working hard and getting no where. The Vegan worked hard and never allowed himself to take any kind of animal protein, relying on legume mixes etc., for his amino acids.
He got nowhere, he looked like a whippet and his poundages steadily dropped until he was lifting less than new starters.
Im no expert in mixing aminos, my knowledge is solely from these two bodybuilders but that HAS to say something about animal and vegetable protein.

Not sure what that example proves, but I know there is a vegan bodybuilding community on the web (some people on another forum I go on are members), so they do exist!

How fast do they grow though? As I mentioned, the guys I knew didnt do too well, but neither did I and I was a meat eater, I assume we had bad genetics if there are successful vegan builders out there.

INDEED! even though meat is tasty, we have no right to take away an animals life just because we can and becasue it happens to be tasty!

Great Minds Eh?:D :thumbsup:

Up until about 50 years ago, meat was hard to come by for the average person and the life spans were form anything from 30 in the middle ages up to about 60 in the 40s and 50s.
Life spans now are far longer and meat is readily available. could these two facts be connected?

I'm not sure where you get your facts from, but don't you think the fact that life spans are far longer could be partly due to the fact that far more of us are choosing a more considerate and healthy vegetarian lifestyle than was the case 50 years ago?

I'm not sure where you get your facts from, but don't you think the fact that life spans are far longer could be partly due to the fact that far more of us are choosing a more considerate and healthy vegetarian lifestyle than was the case 50 years ago?
Just seems a bit coincidental to me. What other reason is there? One that doesnt harm animals I mean...

Just seems a bit coincidental to me. What other reason is there? One that doesnt harm animals I mean...

You may be right, but I think it is far more likely that you are trolling the thread. ;)

You may be right, but I think it is far more likely that you are trolling the thread. ;)
Nope, sorry, I dont troll, never have and never will.
This is an interesting one and Im trying to find out a few opinions, its good stuff.

Could be due to the fact that our lives are being prolonged by the use of drugs, Jabbs.

Could be due to the fact that our lives are being prolonged by the use of drugs, Jabbs.
Yes but drugs that were tested on animals. I know thats another topic but its still salient for a vegan thread.

I was referring to your earlier point about our living longer. Your point about animal testing is totally valid.

Yes but drugs that were tested on animals. I know thats another topic but its still salient for a vegan thread.

The drugs would still be here even if they hadn't been tested on animals, if we were brave enough to test our own drugs on ourselves.:)

If I could be certain of losing weight while at the same time keeping or even gaining muscle then I wouldnt hesitate to try a vegan diet. What worries me is, as I mentioned before, the protein side of it. From what I can gather, getting the balance of amino acids just right is a complicated process. Just get one tiny inbalance and your body goes short. Are there any supplements that can be taken? Do pregnant women on a vegan lifestyle need any extra vitamins or anything?

Hey

I eat meat, but I love Vegan food. Teetering on the edge of Spiritual Enlightenment I will try and make it to your feast so you can tell me of all the advantages that I don't know about.

Isn't there something about our bodies taking up to "X" amount of years to sometimes digest red meat?

I think I will not be closing any doors in my life.

Thank You for the invite.

If I could be certain of losing weight while at the same time keeping or even gaining muscle then I wouldnt hesitate to try a vegan diet. What worries me is, as I mentioned before, the protein side of it. From what I can gather, getting the balance of amino acids just right is a complicated process. Just get one tiny inbalance and your body goes short. Are there any supplements that can be taken? Do pregnant women on a vegan lifestyle need any extra vitamins or anything?

If you're interested in bodybuilding/fitness aspects of nutrition, you might find some info here: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ There seems to be quite a lot on there about protein and muscle-building meal plans and so on.

As for pregnant vegan women, I guess they just need the same extra vitamins and nutrients as pregnant omnivore women do?

If you're interested in bodybuilding/fitness aspects of nutrition, you might find some info here: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ There seems to be quite a lot on there about protein and muscle-building meal plans and so on.

As for pregnant vegan women, I guess they just need the same extra vitamins and nutrients as pregnant omnivore women do?
Thanks for that! ill add it to faves and have a peek later.

What would you all say to coming along to sample free vegan food? Come and see for yourselves at the Free Vegan Food Fayre at The Quaker Meeting House, 10 St. James Street, Sheffield. Saturday 9th December, 12-3.30pm.

This can only be a positive day! Free tasty food that doesn't harm animals, is better for the enviroinment and your health. Organised by Animal Aid and Sheffield Animal Friends. Who's coming?

25 light years is a long way to go to host a Food Fayre!

You would have thought that, if the Vegans had come all this way, it would be an invasion fleet or diplomatic mission or something?

Not an interstellar delivery of Vegan canapés (and I must say I wonder about those also).

Soya milk from aldi at 50p - and alot of dark chocolate is vegan aswell thats not expensive :P


Ok..maybe milk is cheap..but answer me this..why do they make veggy stuff look like meat..you know the things i mean..veggy saucages..veggy burgers..

If they are supposed to turn you off meat..then don't look like meat in the first place....


jt

Ok..maybe milk is cheap..but answer me this..why do they make veggy stuff look like meat..you know the things i mean..veggy saucages..veggy burgers..

If they are supposed to turn you off meat..then don't look like meat in the first place....
jt

First off, meat based burgers and sausage don't look like meat in their natural state do they, they have arisen for ease of preparation and convenience of serving.

Same reasons go for veggie burgers and sausages, they fit in buns and rolls with salad garnish and tomato sauce.

Ok..maybe milk is cheap..but answer me this..why do they make veggy stuff look like meat..you know the things i mean..veggy saucages..veggy burgers..

If they are supposed to turn you off meat..then don't look like meat in the first place....


jt

Well absolutely. I recently bought a packet of "Linda McCartney sausages" and was disgusted to find that the product contained no trace of the former Beatles' wife's corpse.....

A burger or sausage is not a type of meat its a style preparation.

But we steal it from them, although the bees steal the pollen from the flowers n my garden- we're as bad as each other

NO

we make the bees do it for us, they know what we do but they dont mind!!

you need meat to keep healthy and fit!!

kill more animals i say and stock up the fridges in the supermarkets!!!

nice juicy stake for me when i get home yum yum

Yes but drugs that were tested on animals. I know thats another topic but its still salient for a vegan thread.

It's the development of ways to clean drinking water that has saved the most lives. People are living longer but in general, diseases are on the increase in the 'West' (such as cancer and heart disese), these can be prevented if people changed their lifestyle choices (for instance cut down on their fat intake, stop smoking, do more excersie). Here's a fact: you're three times less likely to develop cancer if you have a vegetarian diet. This is partly due to the fact that our digestive systems aren't designed to be carniverous, carnivored have an extremely short digestive system, ours is long,therefore meat gets stuck in our colons and could be a reason why there is so much colon cancer around. Something to thinkabout eh?!

This is partly due to the fact that our digestive systems aren't designed to be carniverous, carnivored have an extremely short digestive system, ours is long,therefore meat gets stuck in our colons and could be a reason why there is so much colon cancer around. Something to thinkabout eh?!

Rubbish! any deogrents, chemicals, bleach etc are the main reason why we get cancer!

we have teeth to chew meat! we have a brain that tells us how to kill!!

if we wasn't meant to eat meat, then we'd have smooth teeth! (FACT)

you need meat to keep healthy and fit!!

kill more animals i say and stock up the fridges in the supermarkets!!!

nice juicy stake for me when i get home yum yum

You're having wood for tea :huh:

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :thumbsup:

Rubbish! any deogrents, chemicals, bleach etc are the main reason why we get cancer!
(FACT)

Cancer of the colon? Are you sure or just talking out of your hat?

Rubbish! any deogrents, chemicals, bleach etc are the main reason why we get cancer!

we have teeth to chew meat! we have a brain that tells us how to kill!!

if we wasn't meant to eat meat, then we'd have smooth teeth! (FACT)

we do have smooth teeth!

It's the development of ways to clean drinking water that has saved the most lives. People are living longer but in general, diseases are on the increase in the 'West' (such as cancer and heart disese), these can be prevented if people changed their lifestyle choices (for instance cut down on their fat intake, stop smoking, do more excersie). Here's a fact: you're three times less likely to develop cancer if you have a vegetarian diet. This is partly due to the fact that our digestive systems aren't designed to be carniverous, carnivored have an extremely short digestive system, ours is long,therefore meat gets stuck in our colons and could be a reason why there is so much colon cancer around. Something to thinkabout eh?!
Methinks you’ve been reading too much vege/vegan propaganda.

Of course we aren’t pure carnivores but neither are we herbivores we are omnivores who until recent developments in food technology needed to eat meat to survive as we are unable to metabolise vitamin B12 from vegetable sources. We can choose to not eat meat but we certainly didn’t evolve not to eat meat, just the opposite infact.

Incidentally what’s your source for vegetarians having 1/3 of the cancer risk of meat eaters?

we do have smooth teeth!
You might be some kind of a freak who only has smooth teeth but I think you'll find most other people have ripping (canine) and cutting (incisors) as well as grinding teeth.

Its a pity this thread dried up. I was rather enjoying it.

Did anyone go today then? What was the food like? I was tutoring across town so missed it.

Did anyone go today then? What was the food like? I was tutoring across town so missed it.
it's next saturday, I can't make it unfortunatly, I wish I could it sounds great.

Why is it with these things the freebie on offer is always something I don't subscribe to?

You never see people having a free steak day do you?

[QUOTE=thecreature]Free Vegan Food [QUOTE]


didn't know it was locked up :hihi: :hihi:

Its a pity this thread dried up. I was rather enjoying it.
Sorry about that I seem to have scared thecreature off.

Anyway if people miss the vegan food fayre or make it & want to sample some more vegan stuff we provide free vegan cake at our Dog on Wheels indie nights at the student union the next one of which is on Sat 16 Dec, of course you do have to pay to get in first.

Some veggie health info with sources:


The chances of dying from heart disease are reduced by 25% by going meat-free.
Key TJ et al, 1999. Health Benefits of a Vegetarian Diet. Proc. Nutr.Soc.; 58:271-275.


Eating high amounts of red meat (particularly processed red meat) eg. beef, veal, pork and lamb, is known to be associated with a 20-40% increase in colorectal cancer risk.
Riboli E, 22nd June 2001. Meat, Processed Meat and Colorectal Cancer. EPIC Study – Preliminary Results.


Breast, prostate and colon cancer are all linked to the consumption of animal products such as dairy foods and meat.
Chan JM et al, 2001. Dairy Products, Calcium and Prostate Cancer Risk in the Physicians Health Study. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition;74:549-554.
Norat T et al, 2002. Meat Consumption and Colorectal Cancer Risk: Dose-Response Meta-Analysis of Epidemiological Studies. International Journal of Cancer;98:241-256.



High blood pressure, obesity, diabetes are also all staved off by following a vegetarian diet, which is certainly an excellent bonus for those following a diet for moral/ethical reasons.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

The chances of dyeing by being alive = 100%

Source: Me.

Conclusion: If your reading this, your going to die.

The chances of dyeing by being alive = 100%

Source: Me.

Conclusion: If your reading this, your going to die.
God NO!!! Are you a doctor or something? Should I make out a will?

Yes, leave everything to me

Apart from the Whelks.

The chances of dyeing by being alive = 100%

Source: Me.

Conclusion: If your reading this, your going to die.

maybe i'm already dead and this is the after life

I'm neither a vegan nor a vegetarian, I'm an omnivore, as I believe humans are designed to be. After all, it's only in the last hundred years or so, maybe less, that the majority of the population have actually had the luxury of so much choice in their food and have been able to develop a conscience about what they are eating.

10s of 1000s of years ago, hunter-gatherers ate what they could collect/catch, then there was the idea of developing agriculture to grow crops and domesticate animals for food to eat, allowing the human race to grow and become the dominant species on the planet. They could not afford to have a conscience about eating another live creature - they would not have survived.
Mostly folk ate what they could. Vegetarians/vegans were rare.
Every civilisation across the world eats some form of meat or fish.

As for the pregnancy question...... I work with 2 girls who are vegans. The first time one of them was pregnant, her skin developed a dull yellow tinge and her eyes had huge dark circles around them. She looked Ill. By her second pregnancy, she had sorted her diet out and was healthy throughout. Both babies were considered as low birth weight (between 4 and 5 pounds - 7 being average) She feeds them on dairy products, otherwise a vegetarian diet and both children are healthy.
The other girl is bringing up her child as totally vegan and he was recently admitted to hospital as being severely underweight.

As for cancer-causing properties of meat, there are so many "scare stories" about which foods are safe to eat and which are not. There could be another report tomorrow showing that certain meats prevent cancer!!!
Many other factors could combine with meat-eating to cause cancers, such as a genetic predisposition to the disease or environmental factors - I don't believe meat-eating on its own will cause cancer.

Most of the problems with meat (E. coli, salmonella, BSE etc) seem to derive from bad food preparation or the unnatural conditions which the animals are kept in. Free range farming and natural foodstuffs should be the way to go.

Just the way I see it!!!!:lol:

.

As for the pregnancy question...... I work with 2 girls who are vegans. The first time one of them was pregnant, her skin developed a dull yellow tinge and her eyes had huge dark circles around them. She looked Ill. By her second pregnancy, she had sorted her diet out and was healthy throughout. Both babies were considered as low birth weight (between 4 and 5 pounds - 7 being average) She feeds them on dairy products, otherwise a vegetarian diet and both children are healthy.
The other girl is bringing up her child as totally vegan and he was recently admitted to hospital as being severely underweight.



You do understand though, dont you, that this could be attributed to any number of reasons.

People can look awful during pregnancy for a number of reasons, some people bloom, I was a bloomer during my pregnancy, partly I suppose due to me having a healthy (vegetarian) diet.

As for low birth weight babies, well a friend of mine had a low birth weight baby and that was more than likely due to smoking in pregnancy.

Of course, there are other possibilities - but she said herself that she had to take advice to sort her diet out!!! As I said, once she'd done that, she was fine!!! As for the low birth weight, she doesn't smoke, though there could be other reasons for that as well. It just seemed suspicious to me that both children were low birth weight at full term....

I'm afraid where children are concerned, I don't agree with bringing them up as vegan, I don't think it's a healthy diet for them, but again, that's just the way I see it......

Of course, there are other possibilities - but she said herself that she had to take advice to sort her diet out!!! As I said, once she'd done that, she was fine!!! As for the low birth weight, she doesn't smoke, though there could be other reasons for that as well. It just seemed suspicious to me that both children were low birth weight at full term....

I'm afraid where children are concerned, I don't agree with bringing them up as vegan, I don't think it's a healthy diet for them, but again, that's just the way I see it......

Well, the research carried out by health professionals certainly doesn't support that view.

It probably doesn't!!!! But I've made my own observations and drawn my own conclusions, and like any good scientist, you're questioning them!!!

I could be wrong, but so could the research, there's been so many occasions where previous research has been overturned by more recent work as more evidence is gathered...

So for now, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....:wave:

aww im working :( otherwise i would

I'm afraid where children are concerned, I don't agree with bringing them up as vegan, I don't think it's a healthy diet for them, but again, that's just the way I see it......

i agree , far too many parents inflict their own beliefs ,ideas and dogma's upon their off-spring, instead of informing their children of the alternative's and letting them develop their own thoughts .

oh and by the way i and my wife have sucessfully raised seven children and we are now helping them bring up theirs.
six grand kids up to press and we're not even 50 yet !!!!!!!!!.
i often wonder how many children these so called " experts" have raised
it seems to me that when people begin to quote stat'setc every one comes up with totally different conclusions drawn from the same info'.
i mean for every one "expert" that claims children fed exclusively on a vegan diet face no ill effects, there is another " expert" that claim's they will.
all my family are omniverous and none of us have had a days illness in our lives.

obviously the odd cold here and there, oh, and chicken pox has made several appearence's but then i guess vegan families could say the same.

Jeez... I read the first post and never expected in to get into such a debate.

I've been veggie for over 10 yrs and its the best thing I have ever done for my health, mind, weight ... everything :)

It amuses me that when you tell people they ask you 50 questions about why, whats the poiint etc...

food fayre was excellento!! the food was amazing i loved it soooo much.

Jeez... I read the first post and never expected in to get into such a debate.

I've been veggie for over 10 yrs and its the best thing I have ever done for my health, mind, weight ... everything :)

It amuses me that when you tell people they ask you 50 questions about why, whats the poiint etc...

More positive news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6180753.stm

I'd quite like to live cruelty free but I think I'd miss cheese too much. Can you get vegan cheese and is it any good?

There are various cheese substitutes, Cheezly which comes in various forms, and scheeze, do a search and you'll find out plenty of info. Some are nicer than others.

I'd quite like to live cruelty free but I think I'd miss cheese too much. Can you get vegan cheese and is it any good?

There's several vegan cheeses around, available from wholefood shops. Some melt on pizza, some spread like Philly, some do neither and smell like old socks.

It's what you get used to, I tried some odinary dairy cheese a few years ago out of inquisitiveness and I'd totally lost the taste for it, it tasted rancid. Same with cow's milk in tea, I've tried that and it's so "clarty", it lines your throat. I'm very used to, and like, the soya alternatives now.

:thumbsup:

Seem to have opened a can of worms Thecreature. (Hope they were vegan!!)
Had I seen the post earlier I would have certainly come. I'm veggy not vegy but it does seem a real slog being vegan.
As for all these folk that think that the natural state of mankind is to be omniverous, not true, we evolved to be able to digest almost anything - like all scavengers. It is not unnatural to eat veg only and it is possible to be healthy on a veg only diet whereas a meat only diet would kill you in no time.

Some veggie health info with sources:

The chances of dying from heart disease are reduced by 25% by going meat-free.
Key TJ et al, 1999. Health Benefits of a Vegetarian Diet. Proc. Nutr.Soc.; 58:271-275.

Eating high amounts of red meat (particularly processed red meat) eg. beef, veal, pork and lamb, is known to be associated with a 20-40% increase in colorectal cancer risk.
Riboli E, 22nd June 2001. Meat, Processed Meat and Colorectal Cancer. EPIC Study – Preliminary Results.

Breast, prostate and colon cancer are all linked to the consumption of animal products such as dairy foods and meat.
Chan JM et al, 2001. Dairy Products, Calcium and Prostate Cancer Risk in the Physicians Health Study. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition;74:549-554.
Norat T et al, 2002. Meat Consumption and Colorectal Cancer Risk: Dose-Response Meta-Analysis of Epidemiological Studies. International Journal of Cancer;98:241-256.

High blood pressure, obesity, diabetes are also all staved off by following a vegetarian diet, which is certainly an excellent bonus for those following a diet for moral/ethical reasons.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study
A few cherry picked quotes from vegetarian/vegan websites are hardly compelling evidence of of the health benefits of a vege/vegan diet.

A more wide ranging and less partial review of the literature (such as this one (http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/profitability-and-economics/trends/meat-and-vegetarianism/97160010.htm)carried out by the New Zealand Government) suggests that the evidence on the health benefits or otherwise of a meat free diet is mixed at best particularly as it's very difficult to separate the effects of vegetarians health consciousness (in comparison to the average meat eater) and the healthy diets (in terms of eating fresh foods, avoiding heavily processed high fat, salt & sugar foods etc.) and lifestyles they tend to adopt from the lack of meat in their diet.

A few cherry picked quotes from vegetarian/vegan websites are hardly compelling evidence of of the health benefits of a vege/vegan diet.

A more wide ranging and less partial review of the literature (such as this one (http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/profitability-and-economics/trends/meat-and-vegetarianism/97160010.htm)carried out by the New Zealand Government) suggests that the evidence on the health benefits or otherwise of a meat free diet is mixed at best particularly as it's very difficult to separate the effects of vegetarians health consciousness (in comparison to the average meat eater) and the healthy diets (in terms of eating fresh foods, avoiding heavily processed high fat, salt & sugar foods etc.) and lifestyles they tend to adopt from the lack of meat in their diet.

They weren't vegetarian sites, from what I can sae they were research articles from medical journals.

Well, the research carried out by health professionals certainly doesn't support that view.
I don't believe you will you please cite this 'research carried out by health professionals'

Adults may well be able to survive on a vegan diet but there's plenty of evidence that it's not healthy for children:

Several studies have examined the growth of vegetarian babies and children (Shull et al, 1977; O'Connell et al, 1989; Saunders, 1988; Saunders and Manning, 1992). The general finding has been that during the first six months growth is usually satisfactory in breast-fed babies. Vegetarian parents often wean their babies later than non-vegetarians, and between 6 and 18 months growth can be retarded. Breast milk alone no longer supplies adequate nourishment, and instead the infant relies more on the weaning diet. Vegan infants normally start off on a relatively high fibre diet and this is thought to suppress digestibility of their dietary fat. This probably contributes to the slower growth, smaller stature and leaner bodies which they have by two years of age. After that time they catch up with non-vegetarian children, and by five years of age there is usually no difference. Another reason why vegan children are underweight is that they may experience more ailments during infancy. Quite a high proportion of vegan children are not immunised against whooping cough or polio, for ethical reasons, as the vaccines may be raised in animals (Saunders and Manning, 1992). Yet another cause is malnutrition. Pugliese et al (1987) reported the case histories of seven 7 to 22 month old infants which had stunted growth because of malnutrition. In all cases the principal cause had been the parents' concern about what the infants ate. There were fears about obesity and atherosclerosis, and a desire to avoid "junk food". Because of this the childrens' energy intakes were restricted and so their growth was curtailed. Their failure to thrive was reversed when they were put onto a more liberal diet. These cases are another reflection of society's obsession with being slim and trim and its fear of heart disease.

Most nutrients can be provided by plant foods provided enough of the food is eaten. Nutritional deficiencies which pose the greatest threat to infants on a strict vegetarian diet are:

* Vitamin B12
* Vitamin D
* Retinol
* C20-22 polyunsaturated fatty acids

Vitamin B12 is present in substantial amounts only in animal foods. It is present in milk, but not in plentiful amounts, and its concentration is greatly reduced if the milk is boiled. This vitamin is required for the synthesis of myelin which acts as an insulating sheath for nerves. Deficiencies of Vitamin B12 at critical stages of nervous tissue development during infancy can result in irreversible damage to the nervous system. This was reported in a baby at Adelaide Children's Hospital whose parents were lacto-vegetarians (Wrighton et al, 1979). The baby was normal at birth and for the first three months. He was breast-fed by his mother who became a strict vegan when the baby was born. After three months he deteriorated mentally and developed anaemia. Treatment for Vitamin B12 deficiency at nine months of age resolved the anaemia, but by 12 years of age he was retarded intellectually and socially.

Zed and Heywood (1977) investigated the Vitamin B12 status for 2 to 4 year old lacto-ovo-vegetarian children in Australia, and found that they had lower serum Vitamin B12 levels than normal. Plant foods cannot be relied upon as adequate dietary sources of the vitamin, and so the period following weaning can raise risks if there is inadequate supplementation or if a disease occurs which diminishes pancreatic and intestinal function. Some infants who have been introduced to vegan-like diets at this stage have failed to thrive (Dwyer, 1991), but generally, vegan families are aware of the risks and take adequate supplements. Resistance to taking vitamin supplements has occurred amongst Rastafarian vegans and this has led to clinical deficiencies (Campbell et al, 1982). Rastafarian vegetarians have also been known to develop Vitamin D deficiency, especially amongst inner city dwellers who experience limited exposure to the sun (Ward et al, 1982).

Parents of teenage children often become concerned when they learn that their daughter or son wants to become a vegetarian. The chief fear is whether they will receive enough protein and that they may develop a growth disorder, particularly if they are light eaters anyway. Generally, however, they are supportive in spite of those worries. Vegetarian children do in fact eat less protein than non-vegetarian children (Nathan et al, 1994). In addition, animal-based proteins have an advantage over plant sources of protein because they are generally of high quality, providing most of the essential and non-essential amino acids. However, the disadvantage of single plant protein sources can be overcome by combining different plant proteins. Deficiencies of protein or amino acids are unlikely in semivegetarians; semivegetarian men tend to eat more protein than vegetarian men (Draper and Wheeler, 1990).

The vegan diet is rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids as distinct from saturated fatty acids. Moreover, the ratio of linoleic/linolenic acid tends to be high and this is likely to inhibit the conversion of %-linolenic acid to docosahexaenoic acid. This may be important as docosahexaenoic acid is absent from vegan diets. This acid is believed to play a role in retina and nervous system function.

Risk analysis using data from the 1983 National Dietary Survey for Australia has shown that the only food group which had a strong influence on the risk of developing iron deficiency was the consumption of meat. Those at lowest risk of developing a deficiency obtained a greater proportion of their total iron intake from meat (Cobiac & Baghurst, 1993). On average about one third of the Australia's iron intake comes from meat, and, up to 31% of girls and 7% of boys have iron intakes below the recommended dietary intake (Magarey & Boulton, 1994). Almost half the women between 18 and 49 years of age have an iron intake which is less than the recommended daily intake.
Source (http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/profitability-and-economics/trends/meat-and-vegetarianism/97160010.htm)

I don't believe you will you please cite this 'research carried out by health professionals'

Adults may well be able to survive on a vegan diet but there's plenty of evidence that it's not healthy for children:


Source (http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/profitability-and-economics/trends/meat-and-vegetarianism/97160010.htm)

The quotes that you were referring to in your previous posts were referenced to various medical / dietetic texts.

A vegan diet is a healthy diet for anyone, child or adult, that is an established fact.

They weren't vegetarian sites, from what I can say they were research articles from medical journals.
Did you even read my post?

I never said they weren't quotes from articles in medical journals, my point is that they are cherry picked quotes, that is to say quotes selected because they back the ideological position of vegetarianism. A more honest, less ideologically driven review of the literature on the health effects of a meat free diet such as the one I linked to shows that the evidence is very mixed.

The quotes that you were referring to in your previous posts were referenced to various medical / dietetic texts.

A vegan diet is a healthy diet for anyone, child or adult, that is an established fact.
Why is it, because you say so?

I have just posted an overview of a great deal of research which suggests that a vegan diet in particular is not healthy for children, if you want to rebut that you'll have to do a lot better than simply declaring that a vegan diet 'is a healthy diet for anyone'.

Did you even read my post?

I never said they weren't quotes from articles in medical journals, my point is that they are cherry picked quotes, that is to say quotes selected because they back the ideological position of vegetarianism. A more honest, less ideologically driven review of the literature on the health effects of a meat free diet such as the one I linked to shows that the evidence is very mixed.

What that cherry poicked quote you put in just above?

There's plenty of research to suggest that a vegetarian/vegan diet is a healthy one. No ones forcing you to eat it so why do you feel the need to protest about it so much.
At the end of the day anyone following such a diet isn't doing uou any harm, so why the need to undermine those who choose it?

Why is it, because you say so?

I have just posted an overview of a great deal of research which suggests that a vegan diet in particular is not healthy for children, if you want to rebut that you'll have to do a lot better than simply declaring that a vegan diet 'is a healthy diet for anyone'.

I've looked at much of the research over the years, particularly when I was pregnant, and I'm very confident in my choice, I just don't feel the need to dredge it all up on google this very instant in order to make my point.

What that cherry poicked quote you put in just above?
I didn't cherry pick anything I posted several paragraphs froma large report and provided a link enabling you to read the rest if you choose to do so. In contrast you have produced absolutely no evidence to back up your claism that a vegan diet is healthy for children.

There's plenty of research to suggest that a vegetarian/vegan diet is a healthy one.
Then why don't you cite it?


No ones forcing you to eat it so why do you feel the need to protest about it so much.
At the end of the day anyone following such a diet isn't doing uou any harm, so why the need to undermine those who choose it?
I am disagreeing with you because I think you are making factually wrong assertions which if followed will damage the health of innocent children.

If you want to adopt any damn fool diet you choose due to moral/emotional considerations that's your right, you however have no right to make ideologically driven, factually incorrect and potentially damaging health advice to people on a public forum without being challenged.

As it happens I am a vegetarian and have been for over a decade I took the decision, as a grown adult, not to eat meat due to moral considerations and after reviewing the literature on the subject to assure my self that it was safe to do so.

If/when I have children though I will most likely feed them meat as the balance of the evidence seems to suggest that a moderate amount of meat is beneficial to children and that a vegan diet is positively damaging to them.

I've looked at much of the research over the years, particularly when I was pregnant, and I'm very confident in my choice, I just don't feel the need to dredge it all up on google this very instant in order to make my point.
:rolleyes: so basically your argument amounts to veganism is healthy for children 'because I say so' and your sources which suggest that a vegan diet harms children are wrong 'because I say so'.

Do you seriously expect to convince people by debating in this manner?

:rolleyes: so basically your argument amounts to veganism is healthy for children 'because I say so' and your sources which suggest that a vegan diet harms children are wrong 'because I say so'.

Do you seriously expect to convince people by debating in this manner?

No, :roll: as I've just said there is plenty of research available about the benefits of a vegan or vegetarian diet. If you want to find it you can. I just don't really care that much about putting you streight to bother.

The facts are there, but I am not a fact finding service.

No, :roll: as I've just said there is plenty of research available about the benefits of a vegan or vegetarian diet.
Yes you've made claim's which you can't/won't back up, that's my point.

If you want to find it you can. I just don't really care that much about putting you streight to bother.
You certainly care enough to repeatedly make the same baseless assertions and repeatedly post excuses for not backing up any of your arguments with evidence, if the evidence