A newspaper report in Tuesdays Daily Mail stated categoricaly that this drug causes psycosis, split personality, and destroys the brain cells.

Leading to the inability to think for yourself, or live a normal life and having to be cared for, after taking it for only three years. Do cannabis takers really beleive it is harmless? I don't think so!!!

Originally posted by halevan
A newspaper report in Tuesdays Daily Mail stated categoricaly that this drug causes psycosis, split personality, and destroys the brain cells.

Woah, steady on...this is the Daily Mail after all, which, how can I put it, tends to exaggerate slightly in defence of Queen, country and quaint English quintessentialness (I think I spelt it right). I remember them saying the same about Qat, the leaf Arab and African people often chew, and I have not heard of any deaths or mental illness related to that.

Leading to the inability to think for yourself, or live a normal life and having to be cared for, after taking it for only three years. Do cannabis takers really beleive it is harmless? I don't think so!!! [/B]

Now I agree with you here. I have never seen the benefit of taking anything which alters your mental state, whether that be soft/hard drugs or alcohol or even Qat.

Originally posted by halevan
A newspaper report in Tuesdays Daily Mail stated categoricaly that this drug causes psycosis, split personality, and destroys the brain cells.

Who cares what the "Daily Fascist" says? Hardly a source of reliable information, is it?

If you're that bothered then don't take cannabis yourself.

The Daily Mail. Hmmmm...

Nope, cannabis has never adversely affected either of me.

I know people who use it regularly and are fine, and people who use it regularly and are psychologically addicted to it. But that can happen with food, alcohol, exercise, etc.
I'd rather deal with a stoned person than a drunk one any day.

You have obviously not read the report properly.

Some people who are already suffering from or who are highly likely to suffer from mental illness will become worse if they smoke cannabis.

People who don't have or are highly unlikely to get mental illnesses will be fine.

I have a feeling of deja vu here! The old 'cause' Vs 'link'.

See all the posts with links to scientific evidence

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?threadid=603

and

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?threadid=701

Halevan, do you believe everything you read in the paper??

A newspaper report in Tuesdays Daily Mail stated categoricaly that this drug causes psycosis, split personality, and destroys the brain cells.

Leading to the inability to think for yourself, or live a normal life and having to be cared for, after taking it for only three years. Do cannabis takers really beleive it is harmless? I don't think so!!!



Well regardless of whether Hal interpreted the article correctly or not, my Mother beats that hands down.

My mother has been smoking the stuff for decades as a 'recreational' drug and looks after the elderly.

Now you can raise all the concerns you like about whether or not she should be in a nursing profession - but it doesn't exactly follow the line of being incapable after only three years of smoking the stuff does it??

Moon Maiden

.......I know quite a few users who do hash all the time and have smoked for years...as long as the damge is to themeselves and they are not harming anyone else then there is no cause for concern

Originally posted by Miss_60
.......I know quite a few users who do hash all the time and have smoked for years...as long as the damge is to themeselves and they are not harming anyone else then there is no cause for concern

Except if one of them should attempt to drive while stoned

I think that if you are prone to mental instability or mental illness of any kind than any thing which alters your mental state is going to be potentially more harmful than to people who are mentally well. You have to take the responsibility for what you do to yourself. We all know that smoking cigarettes causes cancer and yet there are 80 year old smokers without cancer, it is just down to your genetic make up or something.

Cannabis can actually be actually quite useful for some symptoms of mental illness/ instability. As long as you are aware that it can have a depressive effect or cause paranoia. It calms down minor manic moments (my term for head-exploding wall bouncing teeth chattering sessions that can last up to 2 hours) with far less side-effects than any medication. Despite it's depressive effects, it is also used by many Depressives to soften the misery (all hail short-term memory loss:lol: - what was I upset about again?)
Some doctors and psych nurses will enquire if you're taking it and will warn you of the drawbacks, but say that you may as well continue if you are finding it helpful.

Originally posted by Abby
Except if one of them should attempt to drive while stoned

Interestingly 2 independent studies, one by the IDTMU and one by the DOT both showed, through different methodologies that stoned drivers are safer drivers, actually.

IDTMU - Independent Drug Tetsing and Monitoring Unit
DOT - Department of Transport

The IDTMU tests were carried out using statistical results from questionnaires and cross referenced with insurance records.

The DOT tests were double blind and used driving simulators.

The evidence shows that Driving after a spliff or two is safer than when driving sober which is safer than driving after a couple of drinks, which is safer than driving and talking on the phone (even a hands free).

Don't you find facts get in the way of a good predjudice?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The evidence shows that Driving after a spliff or two is safer than when driving sober

Would make a great headline eh? Shame the IDTMU is based only on statistics. And the DOT tests were only simulated.

What's 'double blind' BTW?

Double blind is a method of experimenting where neither the scientists nor the experimentees knew who was using cannabis. all experimentees would have inhaled on either a hand rolled cigarette or one that had been precisely dosed with THC (odourless, tasteless).

All volunteers were familiar with the effects of cannabis so will probably have been in no doubt as to their condition if given a high dose.

Further to the thread, evidence based medicine seems to show a clear link between schizophrenia and smoking cigarettes, as well as as cannabis, and alcohol too.
this indicates that schizophrenics and latent schizophrenics are drawn to substance 'abuse'. Being unaware of their condition, they find relief from the symptoms by altering their conciousness. Anti-psychotic drugs do much the same thing.

It should be said however

Originally posted by "Professor David Nutt, Professor of Psychopharmacology at Brisol University"


481. You do not think there are schizophrenia dangers and all of that.
__(Professor Nutt) It may exacerbate schizophrenia in some people, may ameliorate some symptoms in other people. On balance there is probably a negative benefit in schizophrenia, but that is not a major public health problem.

Some people who are already suffering from or who are highly likely to suffer from mental illness will become worse if they smoke cannabis.

People who don't have or are highly unlikely to get mental illnesses will be fine

Somethign that occured to me last night. If that is the case there are serious problems within the health service.

I know of numerous people who have been told by their GP to find a good dealer after being diagnosed with depression - which is a mental illness.

Now personally I am an advocate of the drug considering the side effects that come with the man made stuff. But there is a scary thought.

Moon

Some people who are already suffering from or who are highly likely to suffer from mental illness will become worse if they smoke cannabis. People who don't have or are highly unlikely to get mental illnesses will be fine

That simply is not true. "may become worse if they smoke canabis" would be nearer the mark. the fact is that the effects of any drug upon the individual are dependent on the drug, the dosage, the famous set and setting, and a million other things.

Did you read my reply to that, MoonMaiden?

It mostdefinitely can be useful to those suffering depression. In my experience of people with depression taking cannabis, it's been helpful 90% of the time, and I haven't seen it make people worse.
The main problem as far as I can see is that some people come to depend on it as an alleviator instead of demanding proper help and advice on how to get through the bad times.

It's difficult to get help, difficult to insist when you feel really badly, and even more difficult when you add being stoned to that.

My housemate smokes the equivalent of at least an eighth a day. He doesn't go out, hasn't had sex for years, doesn't have any motivation, hates his parents.

Overindulgence leads to procrastination at least. But dependence, I'm certain, can lead to mental health problems.

I do not think it can be denied that there is a large proportion of society that use Cannabis as an escape and excuse not to live the life they have been given.
However - how many people know of friends family aquainances who hold 'high power' jobs and frequently enjoy a spliff?

Moon

Cannabis is just as damaging as alcohol, which can also make mental illness worse, i think in many cases it is dependent upon what sort of mental illness it is, panic attacks and anxiety can be eased by cannabis because you need a calming effect, but things like depression and schizophrenia are probably exacerbated, because if you suffer from them your reality is already distorted in some way.

Originally posted by elf
Cannabis is just as damaging as alcohol, which can also make mental illness worse, i think in many cases it is dependent upon what sort of mental illness it is, panic attacks and anxiety can be eased by cannabis because you need a calming effect, but things like depression and schizophrenia are probably exacerbated, because if you suffer from them your reality is already distorted in some way.

It can help depression. I've seen it quite often.

I feel like a parrot:lol:

Originally posted by cosywolf
It can help depression. I've seen it quite often.

I feel like a parrot:lol:

Yes, but could you eat a whole one?

I think the person DOTH protest too much!!!

I am bothered and I don't!!!

Originally posted by maxt
Yes, but could you eat a whole one?

If it came in a bun with BBQ sauce.:lol:

Or if I was stoned...:P

Originally posted by Phanerothyme


The evidence shows that Driving after a spliff or two is safer than when driving sober which is safer than driving after a couple of drinks, which is safer than driving and talking on the phone (even a hands free).

How can drinking after a couple of pints be safer than talking on a HANDS FREE phone? Talking on hands free is no more dangerous than talking to a passenger, in fact, given that there is no temptation to look at the person or be involved in any sort of physical contact, I'd say talking on a hands free phone was safer than talking to a passenger. What next, bans on passengers?

Originally posted by t020
How can drinking after a couple of pints be safer than talking on a HANDS FREE phone? Talking on hands free is no more dangerous than talking to a passenger, in fact, given that there is no temptation to look at the person or be involved in any sort of physical contact, I'd say talking on a hands free phone was safer than talking to a passenger. What next, bans on passengers?

I would imagine it has something to do with the fact that talking to someone on your left and talking to someone on a telephone (whethere hands free or handheld) are two quite distinct tasks - one where talking is not the point of the activity. Talking on a telephone is very hard work for the brain because it requires a great deal of imagination to conjure up a living person from the disembodied voice.

The Transport Research Labs who carried their own tests for Direct Line and posted the results have a crappy website you are welcome to try if you want (www.trl.co.uk)

I couldn't get any joy so found this excerpt from the press release:

The test results showed:


It took hand-held mobile phone users half a second longer to react than normal, and a third of a second longer to react compared to when they were legally drunk.


Participants in the study stated that they found it easier to drive drunk than when using a mobile phone, whether hand-held or hands-free.


Drivers using either a hands-free or hand-held mobile phone significantly missed more road warning signs than when drunk.


Drivers were less able to maintain a constant speed and found it more difficult to keep a safe distance from the car in front, if they were using a phone.


It's not conclusive, but it is strongly indicative. It is quite clear that the safest option, in any event, is to not answer (this is why we have voicemail right?) and not make calls whilst actually driving the car.

But you have a point - should we also legislate against angry drivers, tired drivers, tearful drivers as well as distracting passengers, wailing children and sniping parents-in-law...?

No we have a law that says you must be in control of your vehicle. That should be enough.

Originally posted by waxy chuff
My housemate smokes the equivalent of at least an eighth a day. He doesn't go out, hasn't had sex for years, doesn't have any motivation, hates his parents.

Now then, which is cause and which is effect and most importantly how do you tell the difference?

Overindulgence leads to procrastination at least. But dependence, I'm certain, can lead to mental health problems.
Overindulgence (an excess) of anything leads to problems by definition else it would simply be termed indulgence.

Why do you assert (i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here) that dependence can lead to mental health problems. I would argue that complete dependence (on anything - routine, drug, other people) itself is a small mental health problem certainly, but beyond that the evidence is sketchy at best.

I would agree it's a fairly circular argument and (I'll put my cards on the table here), I have to say, I don't personally think that cannabis is a dangerous drug except in a tiny percentage of users - someone once told me you'd have to smoke the equivalent of 19,000 joints to overdose on it (prob. apocryphal, but there you go).

In the case of my friend, I'd have to say the cause and effect are naturally blurred, in that he was certainly a user of cannabis at the time his personal problems began, and that also happened to be the time that his personal consumption increased. I think an alternative way to look at his problems is that cannabis expanded to fill the gaps in hislife and has simply got to the stage where smoking means he doesn't have to think about all the other stuff that "normal" people deal with - eg relationships, work, socialising etc. Skunk or solid, smoking alters the state of mind, and when one becomes used to that state of mind (as opposed to being straight being your normal state of mind) two things happen - firstly, one feels the absence of the drug more keenly than a less frequent user; and secondly, one's mind is not exercised in the way that a less frequent user's is.

There are so many factors tied up with mental health, including personal health and wellbeing, aspirations and success, mental stagnation and even lack of social contact. The reason I feel cannabis CAN cause mental health problems (and again, I stress that I think this only happens in a minority of situations) is that when abused to the extent that my housemate does, it naturally shuts the abuser off from normal social contact and processes, as well as acting as a constant mental soporific.

My "overindulgence..." point was a bit of a get out on my part, as a regular smoker myself - although, I hasten to add, nowhere NEAR the scale of my friend. I simply meant that it's a commonly known fact that smoking cannabis makes you lethargic and overdoing it a bit means that things don't get done! But when a person feels it necessary to spark up the instant he wakes, and smokes constantly until bed, the effects on his life are pretty clear.

Cannabis is a debilitating drug and, when smoked in such quantities, a normal life is pretty near impossible. Maybe I'm supposing too much, and it could be seen as the decision of a sane man to spend his time without contact with the outside world or the normal everyday things that give us pleasure, but I find this kind of dependence-related behaviour akin to (if not strictly speaking the same as) a number of mental health conditions.

Then again, I'm an arts graduate and I know nowt.

In the case of my friend, I'd have to say the cause and effect are naturally blurred, in that he was certainly a user of cannabis at the time his personal problems began, and that also happened to be the time that his personal consumption increased. I think an alternative way to look at his problems is that cannabis expanded to fill the gaps in hislife and has simply got to the stage where smoking means he doesn't have to think about all the other stuff that "normal" people deal with - eg relationships, work, socialising etc.

Others may wish to look on this section of Waxy's post. Does it look familiar??
You can keep the content and change Cannabis to alcohol, food, cigarettes, excercise.

Only one of those I would consider to be harmful to your health regardless of quantity taken - the rest are part and parcel of life.

Cannabis is not the only things people turn to - it is just less socially acceptable, untaxable and as a result illegal due to ignorance on the subject.

Moon

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Others may wish to look on this section of Waxy's post. Does it look familiar??
You can keep the content and change Cannabis to alcohol, food, cigarettes, excercise.

Only one of those I would consider to be harmful to your health regardless of quantity taken - the rest are part and parcel of life.

Cannabis is not the only things people turn to - it is just less socially acceptable, untaxable and as a result illegal due to ignorance on the subject.

Moon

All of them would be harmful to your health if taken to extreme. Also, some people's tolerance is lower than others so what is considered normal to one may be harmful to another.

The answer, as pointed out elsewhere, is moderation in all things.

erm, deeeeeeeeeeeer really??

Moon Maiden

I think Waxy hit it on the head when s/he said[/quote]but I find this kind of dependence-related behaviour akin to (if not strictly speaking the same as) a number of mental health conditions. [/quote]

Human beings are truly creatures of habit both good and bad (mostly good and bad simultaneously). We call these habits mental health problems when they start to have a negative impact on our life. Drugs, food, exercise etc, can all be used to reinforce habits as they constitute a mental dopamine reward, quite aside from their other, varied effects (getting stoned, fat, endorphin rush etc). The problem starts, as Waxy says, with cannabis, when the habit is being reinforced by the drug, whose effects exacerbate the habit. A vicous circle, and it would be naive of me if I didn't say that I recognise some of those tendencies (utter apathy etc) in myself.

However could it not also be true that apathetic people choose cannabis becauseit suits their lifestyle (not a serious hypothesis)?

Honestly, if you spoke to my friend then you might lend that particular point some credence...

Without a degree in pyschiatry, I don't know. But from my bare knowledge of certain conditions, their "symptoms" can be seen in seriously heavy users of cannabis.

like I said I don't believe that last theory for a minute.

as a regular and frequent (puff puff) toker, I am well aware of how it affects me - In the right circumstances I can sit for two hours trying to muster the resolve just to go and do something. I try and avoid that level of intake as it does constitute abuse, rather than reasonable and moderate use.

But I do think that with any reinforced patterns of behaviour there is a certain amount of 'chicken & egg' reasoning - for example:

apathetic and anti-establishment types are more likely to use cannabis.
Cannabis makes people into apathetic antiestablishment types.

I suspect that both statements are generally true.

As Cosywolf has also pointed out, the same goes for people with some forms of mental illness:

usually quite unknowingly they self-medicate with street drugs. If you don't know you are mentally ill, and you find that a spliff or two makes you feel ok (it does work quite well as a mild anti-psychotic in certain cases), then you will tend to smoke spliffs because they let you feel OK.

Of course , this sort of medication treats the symptoms, not the causes of illness, and is of limited value, but it does help explain why many cannabis users have 'mental health issues' and why many others do not at all.

In and of himself, he feels happy. He isn't confronting any of his "problems", he enjoys himself, and he feels capable of maintaining the bare minimum of social contact necessary for his existence.

I'm fairly sure that the drug matches his choice of lifestyle pretty well, although I acknowledge the chicken/egg aspect of this analysis.

Originally posted by Abby
Except if one of them should attempt to drive while stoned

...had a mate who used to drive from North to South Wales stoned out of his mind....he was doing about 30 miles an hour and felt like he was doing 70mph ...cosmic or what!!!!.......maybe drivers who go too fast should take some...cuz then accidents could be reduced

Has anyone who drives a car ever experienced that 'autopilot' effect - driving a familiar and even very long drive, under the influence of nothing whatsoever?

You know the one, where you suddenly think:
"how did I get here, I hardly remember driving all this way"

And you've done it so many times before you could 'do it in your sleep'?

It's a recognised phenomenon in any activity that is boring (familiar) but requires continuous calculation of relative speeds and continuous exercise of control over the vehicle. The 'overmind' wanders off and lets the rest of the brain do the boring stuff while it thinks about something else entirely.

That's the mind moths, PRT, they get bored on long car journeys, so they eat more:P

Something to lighten it up?Picture (http://www.vickysjokes.com/funny/188.asp?channel=188[URL=null)

Moon

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Has anyone who drives a car ever experienced that 'autopilot' effect - driving a familiar and even very long drive, under the influence of nothing whatsoever?

You know the one, where you suddenly think:
"how did I get here, I hardly remember driving all this way"

And you've done it so many times before you could 'do it in your sleep'?

It's a recognised phenomenon in any activity that is boring (familiar) but requires continuous calculation of relative speeds and continuous exercise of control over the vehicle. The 'overmind' wanders off and lets the rest of the brain do the boring stuff while it thinks about something else entirely.

Phew! I thought this was just me! I used to do tonnes of driving on the motorways and I'd often find I was driving on "autopilot". But strangely (and thankfully) I was still able to react if someone did something dangerous! Anyway, have we gone off the original thread a bit here?!

Exactly - part of your mind took over the complex task controlling the car, leaving you to work on the stuff like navigation or singing or whatever. If you are anxious or agitated, you will never manage to switch on your autopilot. Because the 'autopilot' function doesn't require your active cooperation, your reactions tend be much quicker and more instinctive. Learner Drivers on the other hand must think everything through, and so are more deliberate and error prone.

My personal theory is that small amounts of cannabis may allow a driver to slip into this 'autopilot' method of driving, more easily than normal. This might account for the increased scores of cannabis users in driving simulators.

Or the number of caned students playing on Sega Rally at Valley Centertainment.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

My personal theory is that small amounts of cannabis may allow a driver to slip into this 'autopilot' method of driving, more easily than normal. This might account for the increased scores of cannabis users in driving simulators.

I'd be interested to know more about this, since I thought that smoking cannabis (even in small amounts) and then driving wouldn't normally be a good idea? I thought it was as bad as drinking and driving? Where did you read/hear/see this about cannabis users in driving simulators?

well the test was carried out by the Transport REsearch Laboratory, but their website is pants (www.trl.co.uk)

otherwise I'd just do a google search....or read the entire thread.

Most folk taking cannabis are utterly tedious -like drunks.
But that's their decision...man ..wow...yeah...wow great...

Most folk taking cannabis are utterly tedious -like drunks.

You're not truely associating with them, if you haven't used the same substance as them. A simple social rule of thumb.

Some of us have had our most creative ideas, and had our most enjoyable and stimulating discussions, whilst in an altered state of consciousness brought on by regular cannabis use.
It tends to be early (in)experience that allow one to act like a "stoner"... because that's what you think you're meant to do. Giggles, munchies, Saying "wow"...


so one needs to be under the influence of the same psychoactive for the social bonding to work... what's it like trying to relate an interesting conversation with someone who's drunk, while you're sober. Not great, is it?

pardon tymr???

Lou,


I thought it was as bad as drinking and driving? Where did you read/hear/see this about cannabis users in driving simulators?
They've fixed the TRL website (that did the cannabis research for the DOT).

Bizarrely they do not post their results, so much as a synopsis of their methodology here (http://www.trl.co.uk/1024/mainpage.asp?page=554).

It seems I may have been wrong about double blind testing though.

Thanks Phanerothyme. I've had a look. It's frustrating that they haven't shown their results!

I read this whole thread some time ago then came back to it, so I'd forgotten what was posted earlier cos it's so long! So I'd forgotten about your earlier posts on this research.

I figure if I can drive on "autopilot" without using cannabis then why would I want to take it to achieve this effect? And how would you regulate "small" amounts to achieve this effect? What's a small amount to one person could have someone else feeling much more stoned if they aren't used to it? I would never want to drive after taking cannabis...

I haven't seen the results from these tests so I'm not discrediting your theory, but I find the thought of driving under the influence of any drug a bit scary...

Originally posted by Lou
Thanks Phanerothyme. I've had a look. It's frustrating that they haven't shown their results!
Ok found the results here. It's a 110 page PDF, but the conclusion is, in essence
In terms of road safety, it cannot be concluded that
driving under the influence of cannabis is not a hazard, as
the effects on various aspects of driver performance are
unpredictable. However, in comparison with alcohol, the
severe effects of alcohol on the higher cognitive processes
of driving are likely to make this more of a hazard,
particularly at higher blood alcohol levels.


read the whole document by downloading it from here (http://www.trl.co.uk/static/dtlr/pdfs/TRL477.pdf) to find out precisely what happens when driving stoned and how they tried to measure it.

The problem was they could not point to any statisically significant results that would show either an impairment or improvement in driving ability. But that it is less dangerous than driving after a drink is undeniable. And other tests have shown that driving on the phone is more dangerous than when driving after a drink.

so drivers are safest if they are sober (we knew this)
they are less safe if they have had a smoke
they are less safe still if they have had a drink
they are less safe still if they are on the phone.


I read this whole thread some time ago then came back to it, so I'd forgotten what was posted earlier cos it's so long! So I'd forgotten about your earlier posts on this research.

I figure if I can drive on "autopilot" without using cannabis then why would I want to take it to achieve this effect? And how would you regulate "small" amounts to achieve this effect? What's a small amount to one person could have someone else feeling much more stoned if they aren't used to it? I would never want to drive after taking cannabis...

I haven't seen the results from these tests so I'm not discrediting your theory, but I find the thought of driving under the influence of any drug a bit scary...
I'm not trying to make the case that cannabis users are safer drivers than anyone else, merely to say that there is no good evidence whatsoever that shows that it significantly impairs your driving ability, unlike alcohol or mobile phones.

As for my theory that cannabis makes the 'autopilot' mode more accessible - it is just drawn from my own observations, and I can attest that whilst not impairing driving ability (control over vehicle) significantly, cannabis can affect your navigation skills as you happily sail down the motorway, forgetting which junction it was you were going to turn off.

I find rhythmic music when driving also lets me drop into autopilot mode more easily. Rhythmic music and cannabis are both able to induce meditative states, and I would characterise the 'autopilot' mode as a meditative state.